term. and the fallout from elon musk's outburst to advertisers as the ceo of ex responds. then, george santos may be on his way out of congress, but not without a fight. how did we end up here? the journalist who's been investigating santos since 2019 will be here, as the 11th hour gets underway on this thursday night. ,,. -- . , reinstated a gag order preventing trump from commenting on court employees for handling his 250 million dollar civil fraud trial. that order was originally imposed after trump repeatedly targeted the clerk assigned to the judge in his case. it will now remain in place until the trial is over, which is expected to be sometime in january. meanwhile, we are still waiting for a federal court to rule on the gag order in the d.c. election interference case, but there is new reporting out that shows the special counsel jack smith has been digging even deeper into how key trump allies work to try to overturn the 2020 election. both politico and the washington post say court documents have shown text from gop congressman scott perry revealed that he was in touch with several different people in trump's orbit about keeping the former president in power. after the election, perry reached out to several trump campaign lawyers as well as rnc chair ronna mcdaniel, white house chief of staff mark meadows, and former doj official jeffrey clark. scott perry's taxed reveal that he was talking to clock about to acting attorney general justice clark was getting the justice department involved in efforts to overturn the 2020 election. watch this. >> scott perry was right in the middle of the effort to install and enact a attorney general who was prepared to take action without basis in fact or law. dictating messages to the president from jeff clark, he puts the president himself in the middle of this misguided plan and shows that perry was the orchestrator. jeff clark, remember, it was prepared to send a letter to state legislators, essentially asking them to hold special sessions and put forth these alternate fake slates of electors. and publicly declared the justice department had serious concerns about election integrity without factual foundation. >> reporter: tonight, we are also following developments in the special counsel's classified documents case in florida. new reports indicate one of trump's lawyers testified to the special counsel that she told donald trump himself it would be a crime not to comply with the subpoena for the mar-a-lago documents, and she also testified trump, quote, absolutely understood that warning. remember that when he tries to say, it was the lawyers, it was the accountants, i didn't know better. today, we learned she said otherwise. with that, let's get smarter with the help of our leadoff panel this evening. susan glasser, staff writer for the new yorker, a man she knows, well peter baker is also here, chief white house correspondent for the new york times, and barbara mcquade, a veteran federal prosecutor and former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan. barb, let's go to you first. what is the reinstatement of this new york accord or? and what does it really mean for donald trump, because it seems like nothing stops him. >> yeah, you know, you've got to start with a gag order to at least have a baseline. and reinstating this, i think, is really important to the rule of law. we've heard a lot of arguments from lawyers that are really misrepresenting what the situation is, talking about it as if we're in a vacuum and that this judge is somehow preventing donald trump from engaging in political pietz peach. in fact, when you're in a trial, and you are the defined, and you are subject to the orders of the court. and the judge has not just responsibility, but the duty to protect courthouse personnel, jurors, witnesses, and the integrity of the proceeding itself. and, so that's a start. i'm sure he will continue to push the limits of this. at some point, we've seen judge and gore on imposed financial sanctions, and the question is whether your judge cut can or any other judges going to impose the ultimate penalty, which would be to jail him for violation of the gag order. >> reporter: at some point, look no further than today, peter. donald trump put out a social media post claiming that the wife of the judge in the fraud trial was attacking him on ex, twitter. but for fact sake, the judge's wife never sent anything like that. in fact, she told the hill she does not even have in ex twitter account. but here's the problem, trump suppose that he was line and was likely seen by millions of people. it was then amplified by the right-wing media on social media, on social media. but the judge's wife's denial to the hill, that's probably only going to be seen by thousands of people. so this is the misinformation machine work again and winning again. what do we do about that? >> well, look, donald trump is never allowed facts to get in a way of a good argument. and what he's trying to do here is not influenced the court. he knows he's lost this case. the judge has already ruled that trump and his organization committed fraud in their real estate evaluations to banks and so on. so all that's at stake here is how much of a penalty he pay. so having already effectively lost this case, he's trying to explain to his voters why it happened. it happened not because donald trump did something wrong, not because he committed a crime, not because he is a fraud and the court has already determined. but because the judge is somehow biased, or the clerk is biased, or the judge's wife is biased. he does this every single case. remember that campaign, 2016, when he was on trial, or at least in court on the lawsuit regarding the trump university, for which he later paid $25 million to people who we had defrauded. he said the judge there was biased against him, why, because he was quote, mexican. of course, he wasn't mexico, and he was american born, from a mexican background. why would that make him biased? because donald trump over the wall on the border. that itself is biased. and trump does this again and again and again. it's not about legal strategy, -- it's all about explain to his base why he was about to lose, why he's not the fraud that the court is about a column. >> reporter: so susan, this ends up being the challenge. peter just laid it out for any court or any prosecutor in any case where donald trump is a defendant. >> well, correct, and of course, we've never seen donald trump as a defendant in an election year with his campaign moving inside the courtroom. so add that element into it, but i think, you know, the point from upstairs in my house is absolutely correct. in the end, donald trump is a 77 year old man. his playbook is his playbook. and he is nothing if not familiar with courts. in fact, this whole argument we were talking in your introduction about, his lawyer informing him that he had to comply with a subpoena. he doesn't need, at this point, a lawyer to tell him. that because he has been subpoenaed many many times in many different cases going back over decades. he's well aware of his responsibility to comply with them, and if he doesn't, that's on purpose to. so again, i just feel like we've never seen anything like what we're about to see in 2024 when these four criminal cases are all unfolding in the context of the campaign. >> reporter: but susan put it perfectly. we shouldn't expect him to change his behavior, right? he has been in lawsuits dozens and dozens of lawsuits for decades. he's gone bankrupt six times. and what's the net result in all of these disasters? he became president of the united states. he's running again and as the front runner. why would he change his game? barb, let's actually talk about this new jack smith reporting. how much progress does it seem that he's making in building cases against trump? >> well, the indictment has already been filed, so what we're seeing is a trickle out of some of the evidence that is already been amassed there. one of the items in the news today is the idea that this other lawyer, jennifer little, also shared with donald trump the advice, the legal advice, that he had to comply with the subpoena to produce the mar-a-lago documents. and although he has been sued before, he knows what a spin is, i do think this is important testimony, because i think one of his defenses will be that he did not engage in willful retention of the documents, which means he knew that his possession of them was illegal. the espionage act is one of the few statutes that requires a higher this is a test. mens rhea intend that many statutes which simply require knowledge that you're doing the thing. ordinarily, ignorance of the law is no excuse. it applies in most cases. we have whole heard that adage. but when it comes to the espionage act, it's such a sensitive law, because it's such a serious law, the statute also requires proof that the defendant knew his conduct was illegal. and that's why i think that this testimony, in addition to the testimony that we already heard coming from -- will be very valuable. there are now two witnesses, and so it's very difficult to explain that away as bias from the state over some other excuse against witnesses saying the same thing. so that can be very persuasive to a jury. >> reporter: peter did, that surprise you to hear that testimony from his lawyer? where most used to allen weisselberg who basically stood with trump until the end. but for trump's lawyer to say, i knew he was going to get in trouble. i told him he was going to get in trouble. he was well aware. that can't be good. >> it can't be good, and barbs riot that it obviously undercuts anything the lawyer told me to do it defense. we saw this before. we saw this in the campaign case. how many times too easy told after election day, november 2020, that he lost the election? how many times were we told that some of the legal strategies he was pursuing or wrong or misjudges and in some cases, unconstitutional. how many times was he told of the fraud claims he was making in public on camera were not true? and he goes out and say is them anyway. that's jack smith's strategy in that case as well, the election subversion case, which of course a separate case than the data is classified documents case. but he has made the case in his indictment that donald trump was told time and time again the truth that he went out and said what he said anyway. and therefore, it was not a good face acclaim on the part of a president who thought he might have been cheated on an election. it wasn't, fact according to jack smith, a conspiracy to defraud the public, to tell the public something that the president knew or certainly had reason to know is not true, because he was told a time and time again. >> susan when it comes from these types, scott perot was not one of the jokers that trump brought in to be an adviser. a lot of those jokers had no business even being in washington. we're talking about a member of congress, apparently talking to all these people about overturning the election. so, when we say wire all of these republicans still standing with trump? is the answer because they were part impartial with this from the get-go? >> well i've long been fascinated by the saga scott perry who's a leading chairman of the house freedom caucus. his role was already known in some respects which was his role in connecting president trump to this obscure justice department official jeffrey clark who steps forward and essentially offers his self up and says if the other political appointees the justice department won't do your bidding mister president i will pursue your claims about the rigged election and we've known about jeffrey clark's role in writing a letter that he tried to get the other officials of the justice department to send to georgia to essentially say we are investigating election. which they were not doing. they all refused to sign it, trump we know in this dramatic confrontation in the early days of 2021 basically says i'm going to make jeffrey clark the acting attorney general and it is only when the other officials join hands and say no we are all going to resign that trump backs away. so he knew about scott perry, but the tax strikes me as significant and fascinating. this is a long running effort by the justice department to gain access to scott perry's telephone, this is some examples that leaked out in a document that was then quickly withdrawn from the court website as i understand it. i think it's significant information. it shows that he was acting as a direct conduit with the president, that the president was personally in effect orchestrating this conspiracy at the justice department. i think it is fascinating stuff. it's a reminder of how much we still don't really know. there is more to learn about what happened with trump after the 2020 election. >> barb, what is your reaction to these text? >> yes i think what susan just said is so interesting, i think it demonstrates that there is a lot that we don't know. there is evidence that we will learn for the first time when the case goes to trial. the texture interesting, all the conduct that's alleged in the election interference case, i think the conduct that discussed me the most is alleged conduct against jeffrey clark, because -- i know just how profoundly wrong that alleged conduct is to not just trying to orchestrate fraud but suggest to a state government that they should reconvene their legislatures for the purpose of submitting a slate of electors. it's such an inappropriate role for the justice department and then compounded by the fact that there's absolutely no evidence of fraud and so perry as the conduit talking with clark could have some very interesting admissions contained in there that could be powerful evidence against jeffrey clark. although, the evidence was already strong against jeffrey clark, we know that he wrote this letter, we heard from other officials what he was up to. but i think the role here could be very interesting. >> peter, i cannot let you go until we also co this other topic because it is an important one. your colleagues at the new york times broke a stunning story tonight that israeli officials had hamas's battle plan for the october 7th terrorist attack more than a year before it happened. but the israeli thought it was too tough for hamas to carry out, apparently they did not take it seriously. can you break this down for us? >> yes, it's remarkable. in fact, they had a 40-page document basically said what was going to happen. there was an analyst who try to get them to take it seriously and was overruled by a supervisor saying well, let's just wait and see. it's almost predictable that this could've happened. downstairs in the living room there's somebody -- because this is what we saw 9/11 as well. you have this big attack this big surprise it seems out of nowhere, somebody somewhere the bows of the government, intelligence agency often turns out to have known, at least the warning signs, and they were disregarded by other parts of the government. this has profound implications for prime minister netanyahu's already deep political trouble at home. the polls show that most israelis blame him for the attack, for leaving israel vulnerable. this will now be used against him as evidence of that and caused him great political trouble. we don't know that he saw this intelligence, we don't know if you had any knowledge of this himself. but he will have to answer about that no doubt, and i think it's not good for him at this point in the middle of the war because it puts pressure on him to continue the war after the current pause is over, in order to, you know, keep the focus on that rather than any political fallout that there may be from this report. >> what about fallout from the u.s.? do we have any sense if the u.s., obviously the u.s. and israel share a ton of intel. is it possible that someone in the u.s. knew about this? even if we did, was there anything we could do about it? it's really an's hands? >> that's right, you've already seen reports essentially saying just that from u.s. officials saying basically this was israel's focus was on hamas because we treated it as a regional and local problem, we outsource that part of the intelligence to israel and we had a close relationship and we trusted that they got this. and hamas was not something in recent years that the u.s. had big intelligence focus on. i wouldn't rule anything out in terms of what the u.s. might have known or what might be contained in any of the u.s. documents, if you look back to the 1973 young kapoor war, the greatest intelligence failure in israel history, up until october 7th of this year there was a precedent established of a robust government investigation ultimately all of the facts came out just like the u.s.'s own failure of intelligence on 9/11. this is a failure of imagination in the end, they had the documentation. they couldn't really believe that hamas was capable of doing such a thing because it didn't fit with the story they told themselves. i'm sure there will be more damning evidence that emerges. read the story is a powerful you can almost see the movie version of it down to the doubting colonel who tells the woman intelligence analyst -- she doesn't have it right. >> but of course, she did. i'm astounded by the brainpower coming from the class, or baker bureau, it's mind-blowing. susan peter thank you both for being here, barb, always great to see you as well. when we come back, you know what we are talking about him. elon musk has profanity laced outburst to advertisers. jake ward joins us to talk about firestorm surrounding ex, and the ceos response. later expelling george santos round three. the new york congressman embracing his potential second to 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know how to thank you. >> somebody is trying to i'm here to thank you. blackmail me with advertising? blackmail me with money? go [bleep] yourself. >> well dude, it's only wednesday. >> reporter: our dear friend jake ward speaking for all of us there. reacting to elon musk's wild interview at the deal book summit. quick reminder, musk said that two potential advertisers who are thinking of dropping twitter. some of whom were sitting there in the room. -- who is the ceo of twitter, was also in the audience when musk made those comments. today, she sent out a memo to her employees, writing in part this. our principles do not have a price tag, nor will they be compromised, ever. and no matter how hard they try, we will not be distracted by sideline critics who don't understand our mission. all right, joining me to discuss this, jake ward himself. our tech correspondent. maybe i don't understand linda readily yaccarino or twitters admission. this is a nonprofit, this is a for profit business. and the business is run on an advertising model. what in the world is she or he talking about? she went on a noon or no to say he said profound things in that interview. at what point in history of business or respectable society was it acceptable to tell anyone to go f themselves? >> yeah, and especially right in the advertising community, which the -- when he said that on stage, according to people that room, this not only linda yaccarino who looked around and thought, my god, i'm going to have to make nice with these people with hearings after this. but people like the ceo of disney, bob iger, who elon musk waved out and said hey, bob, specifically, as somebody who had pulled his advertising off the platform. so you're obviously right. but the lifeblood of x, formerly twitter, is advertising. 90% of their revenue comes from that. and what's really weird about this stuff is the way in which, if you look at the other five companies that elon musk runs, those companies in fact are quite protein in their business models. they do a great job. tesla turned a profit of more than 20 billion dollars last year. they're doing great. but every time he misbehaves in this very public way around access it's launches over into the other companies. so one example is he's in israel earlier this week seemingly there to apologize for his time, for promoting antisemitic conspiracy theories on x and all this thing. earlier, he had offered gaza the possibility of connecting to the internet in spite of the israeli blackout through starlink, the company he owns. well this time, he goes there, he gives this tour with netanyahu, we meet with president herzog. and then seemingly, in exchange, he agrees to not give any access to gaza when it comes to startling. and gets that company kind of in meshed in what's going on in his real. so as he goes on with this stuff, you know, these other bigger, much more profitable companies are beginning to get involved in the misbehavior that he doesn't seem to be able to stop doing on x itself stuff. it's crazy. >> reporter: does twitter have a new game plan or business model? does elon musk plan to self funded? because according to the new york times, these big advertisers who left, who heard what elon musk had to say, they ain't coming back anytime soon. >> i mean, right, why would they? once you have said that all onstage to the -- you know, this is the thing. and what's crazy is you don't hear him saying, you know, this kind of thing, go f yourself, to the steel makers that spacex depends on for its rockets or mining companies that tesla depends on for battery materials. you never hear that stuff. so it's just so odd that he's throwing away literally the lifeblood of that company. you know, when i talk to people about it, they say that, you know, people close to, it musk, they say that it's just something, the pressure that he feels, obviously is not financial. because as you say, he could run this thing and theory, forever, as the world's richest man at a loss if he wanted to. but he does seem to somehow recognize that it needs the money eventually. and yet he just can't help himself. there's just something about his need, even before he owned this platform, to say things, even about his other businesses. he got himself in trouble with the s.e.c. to that he said he would take tesla private once upon a time. does something about the microphone that he cannot resist, even though again and again he seems to be damaging his other companies and as you say, he needs the money, right? $75 million could be lost from this latest round of advertisers pulling out. that company needs that money if they're going to keep going, unless he really is prepared to fund it forever simply to have the mouthpiece. >> reporter: call me crazy, when somebody tells me to go after myself, i'm not inclined to get back in bed with them. does elon musk know what the word blackmail means? he's now saying he's not going to be blackmailed by these advertisers, okay? elon musk claims to be this champion of free speech, right? don't tread on me. i get to live how i want to live. these advertisers get to choose who they want to do business with. so on what grounds is he claiming their blackmailing him? >> yeah, you know, i don't get it either. it does remind me of the ways in which we hear certainly from the fringes of political activism on the right, the same kind of stuff, right? we're all about free speech and the first amendment, but there's a huge amount of censorious effort. and elon musk keeps getting himself into these sort of problems in which, on the one hand, he saying that it's going to be a bastion of free speech and that he's a free speech absolutist and that x is going to be this platform where anything can be said. on the other hand, he talks about needing to pull back on certain kind of rhetoric, and once he's actually in front of somebody like president herzog, he says, you know, he sort of nod to the responsibility that he has, and yet he just can't help it. we have this long history now evelyn musk either flirting with or openly expressing antisemitic viewpoints and propagating antisemitic tropes. and so, i do not understand. and this is also why, when you look at the ceos of other platforms like this, they never say anything. they may be post acute picture of their kids, but that is it. but the most, part those guys stay quiet, and the reason is you get yourself into some trouble here. they are absolutely right. as a free speech absolutist, it leaves a lot to be desired in terms of how he's actually running the platform right now. >> reporter: he's also been boosting the old pizzagate conspiracy theory lately. at some point, or maybe this is the point, our governments, our other businesses or counterpart starting to look at elon musk and saying this person shouldn't have -- i mean, think about all the government contracts he has. you've got tesla, spacex, you've got startling. look at the way this man conducts himself. if any other fortune 500 ceo did a fraction of what he does, they'd be out on the year. >> that's absolutely right. and on the one hand, there is the fact that his other companies are tremendously profitable, right? if you're investor and tesla, you're pretty happy with how it's going. he rolled at the cybertruck on thursday. today, that's 100,000 dollar vehicle for which there is a waitlist. he makes his investors money, so there's that thing that's protecting him. but then you're absolutely right. he is at this nexus, the venn diagram of elon musk, you know, crosses all kinds of geopolitical and national security categories that are really alarming. i think if you look at this, you realize that the white house is calling his statements on x abhorrent. on the other hand, the white house is dependent on him to take material and personnel out into space. the same thing is true with starlink. it becomes a central geopolitical thing when this guy literally owns the single largest constellation of communication satellites in the world. more than 4300 satellites up in the night sky. more than any other nation. so i think all of those things together seem to have put him far beyond the pale of, as you say, your average fortune 500 ceo. it's not just his money. it's that he across the six plus companies he's the ceo of is at the nexus of world affairs. it literally may have taken him beyond the normal rules of consequences. >> reporter: elon musk, possibly too big to fail. jake ward, always good to have you here. when we come back, tomorrow could be george santos's final day in congress. and no surprise, he is not leaving without a dramatic show. we're going to sit down with the guy who literally wrote the book on him. when the 11th hour continues. get help reaching your goals with j.p. morgan wealth plan, a digital money coach in the chase mobile® app. use it to set and track your goals, big and small... and see how 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convicted of a crime or you participated in the civil war. neither apply to george santos. >> i've been convicted of no crimes mister speaker, on what -- must be changed for me? >> i myself have been a victim of george santos, and other members of congress in terms of defrauding through public donations. you sir are croak. >> my colleague wants to come here calls cost me a crook, same colleague who is accused of being a woman beater. are we really going to ignore the fact that we all have tasks. >> past, my goodness. congressman george santos was defiant and defensive, ahead of another vote to expel him tomorrow. i want to welcome back mark, author of the new book the fabulous, the lying hustling drifting stealing and very american legend of george santos it is out right now. mark, i'm glad you're here. you have been covering george santos since 2019. >> that's right. >> he was elected in 2022, when did you know that this man was absolutely full of it? was your mind blown when he was elected? >> there were a lot of clues -- >> like what? >> the first time i talked to him in 2019 it was november i called him for a little intro kind of peace and he said he was launching the campaign that they, the very day we talked, but he was doing so from florida where he was on the work conference. florida is far from new york, the district that he was running in. that raise a lot of questions. and it continued being weird from there. >> now, here we are, he is saying that this report was slanderous against him. but you have reporting that during his second campaign he moved to 42 grand just on flights, right? this has been his game from the get-go. how did he get away with it? how is he honestly saying this is slanderous when you look at all the charges against him here? >> there is a litany, there's a 23 count indictment, there is a lot of this reporting in my book which goes into all the things he has spent money on, the trips he took. and, what's different about the ethics committee investigation is that they had bank receipts. we know what he spent money on, and where the money came from and when to. i think we're in a different situation now. >> give us the most outrageous, egregious that will just blow anyone's mind that this is how an elected official conducts himself? >> the thing that i always return to in the book was that he was hustling from a very young age. he moved off his elderly grandmother in brazil. he stole from his and elma, family members and friends told me and he even had a 16-year-old kid that was living in his house, a friend of his sisters, a kid who didn't speak english, new in the country and he stole from that kid as well. it seems pretty like he can't help himself. >> he's always claimed, much like donald trump has that everyone deserves second chances. right? help us understand that, is not just the mantra of a lifetime hustler? you just have to stay relevant, stay famous and it doesn't matter what you did? >> i think he has a feeling of just wanting to keep blustering, pushing through any obstacles. i write in the book about a crazy moment where he comes out after getting his first indictment and he says, you know, it's a witch hunt. he's wearing sunglasses, he is just stipulating for the cameras, and then he claims, you know, the things -- i might be a committee chair in a couple of years, and that didn't happen, i think that is his state of mind. he is all trying to push through and kind of get over the obstacles. >> do you think he believes his own high? >> some people i talked to definitely told me that, and they really think that that is what is going on in his head. i think on some level he has to believe it as he is saying it, otherwise it wouldn't be so persuasive. >> did it surprise you that despite his track record of grifting that he was elected? >> it was a crazy year in new york, chuck schumer himself lost in the district. schumer is an incredible campaigner on the local level, that's part of it, and san jose is very good at harnessing these political trends that were permeating the district. >> speaker of the house mike johnson has said he has real reservations about expelling him. if you don't expel someone for this conduct, then what are the rules? who would you keep? >> this due process argument i think made a certain amount of sense before the ethics investigation came, there is a lot more evidence, it's becoming increasingly philosophical. >> knowing him the way you do, he gets expelled tomorrow, what do you think he does next? >> he has wondered about certain things, i floated the idea of dancing with the stars -- he loves the public spotlight. >> i can't, dancing with the stars or his non bravo spin-off. this isn't funny decision elected official. mark thank you so much for being with us. spent the last year dedicating much of your work to george santos, takes a special kind of journalist. thank you for being here. when we come back fears of a dictatorship the alarming prediction for a second trump term. we will get into it with two former congressman when the 11th hour continues. hour continues. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can rapidly relieve joint pain, stiffness, and swelling in ra and psa. relieve fatigue for some... and stop joint damage. and in psa, can leave skin clear or almost clear. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin; heart attack, stroke, and gi tears occurred. people 50 and older with a heart disease risk factor have an increased risk of death. serious allergic reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. done settling? ask your rheumatologist for rinvoq. and take back what's yours. abbvie could help you save. i work hard, and i want my money to work hard too. so, i use my freedom unlimited card. earning on my favorite soup. aaaaaah. got it. earn big with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. >> guess what would have been some facts. i'm a mom from virginia. i work with immigrants in israel as well as palestinians, and five members of my family were kidnaped by hamas on october 7th. two were brutally murdered and three are still being held. all i want, all anyone would want, is to hug them and hold them again. we demand medical care. we demand the release of the hostages from hamas terrorists. these are innocent women and children. return them to us, to their families. demand their release. in his next term? he's gonna surround himself with the perry's. with jenna alice's, with the boebert's, with the jeff clark 's, all the people around him are going to be the people who have will bend to his will. he has already said that. that is what is really scary about this. >> the new op-ed in the washington post is laying out the worst-case scenario for 2024 and beyond. it is called quote a trump dictatorship is increasingly inevitable. we should stop pretending. back with me tonight to discuss former democratic congressman connor lam, from pennsylvania, former republican congressman david jolly of florida. david, the op-ed warns that the united states is dangerously close to a trump dictatorship. so, i think i have two questions, are we pre-maturely having this conversation, he's not even a nominee yet? or is the fact that it is even a possibility that could be president given what he could do, is that a threat we need to focus on? >> i don't believe it is premature one bit. i actually think the return of donald trump is the most important issue of our time. it's the most important issue that this nation faces. for what it means for the rights political rights, for what it means for democracy itself. and whether or not there could ever be too much coverage of donald trump, we can talk about qualitatively how to talk about him, but the return of donald trump is a threat to democracy. here's the interesting context, i think, in the first term and until now the constitution has largely held, the courts have stood their ground, pushed back on donald trump's attempt to shred the constitution. but there is a latency, stephanie, in the ability of the courts to here the tries to the constitution. it's in that latency that donald trump is able to ignite a movement into ignite the culture in his favor. arguably what we are seeing right now the return of donald trump is occurring and the latency of the court stability to effectuate the constitution against a president who wants to rhythm asunder. donald trump is a threat and he needs to be reported as such until the next election. >> connor, there was one line in this op-ed that struck me, it's why i wanted to talk about it tonight. it argues that if trump were to win, he will become the most powerful person ever to hold the white house. do you agree with that, what would it mean? >> ivory that we should be talking about that threat now, i'm not as sure as robert that the u.s. military would just fold the way he seems. i think his example has shown and i don't believe people would give him the kind of power that it suggests. i just want to pick up on the point that he was making, the ballot box is our ultimate check against this guy, as scary as it may seem. what's paradoxical is that this type of elite column that is written for elites is motivating to elite, but in my experience at least it's not the type of thing you would never talk about with 80 to 90% of the voters out there who have the ultimate decision. you are afraid of this, you want to think about it, talk about it, but it brings you back that the democrats need to talk about retirement, the economy and all the things that they need to win an argument about. the stakes are just incredibly high this time. >> connor, shouldn't it be easier this time, because donald trump isn't talking about those things. when he talks about health care he says let's get rid of obamacare of which is hugely popular. when he talks about the economy he talks about bringing on tariffs which will increase inflation, when he talks about locking up migrants that is going to hurt his labor force. all these policies that he does talk about, they don't help the american people. >> no, they don't, obamacare in particular, i mean his column if you want to talk about columns he put this column out there the other day, and he said let's appeal obamacare and that's the dumbest thing he could do, people don't agree with him on that republicans independents democrats -- should it be easier no, we are not living in easy times but with issues like that they are powerful and people do listen to us, apart from who the candidate is. the response to the policies. trump will make big mistakes. the caller makes them seem so powerful and like he doesn't make mistakes, he makes mistakes every single day, bad ones like that. >> david, the piece predicts that republicans will all fall in line once the primary voting begins and that coverage of trump's trial are going to help trump, i don't know how that could be true given that one of the first witnesses could be his former vp mike pence. it will be tough to argue that it fixes for democrats. >> i think the trials will solidify the support, i don't think it will have the same effect among persuadable's in general electors. another part of his column suggests that many americans are okay with reducing the amount of democracy in the united states with reducing some of their own rights, if what they are getting from donald trump is something they like to see. and i think that becomes the challenge, among the remaining persuadable's how do you convince them that this is an existential time for our democracy. i think the way you do it to conor's point is this, democratic policies are right for america on the economy, energy, education, foreign policy, democratic policies allow all americans to be lifted up. but you only get to those policies if you are able to secure a republic that can provide for those policies. because if you rip away the fundamentals of our republic than it's a game of winners and losers. based on your political allegiance to the president. policies, effective policies come out of a thriving democracy. there is a thread you can draw there in a general election to voters who are persuadable to support president biden's reelection. >> joe biden needs to talk about those policies, talk about the infrastructure law and all the places, it is being put into place and the communities, cities, states that it's helping because it's happening in a lot of red states, and democrats need to remind all of those voters they are the ones that delivered for them. conor lamb, david jolly, great to see you both. when we come back, too popular for his 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