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tonight on "the reidout" -- >> are you aware of any members of congress seeking pardons? >> mr. gaetz and mr. brooks. mr. gohmert asked for one as well. mr. perry asked for a pardon, too, i'm sorry. >> mr. perry, did he speak to you directly? >> yes, scott perry did ask for a pardon and new reporting sheds new light on why he would have wanted one. his text messages following the 2020 election reveal the integral role he played in trump's plot to overturn joe biden's victory. also tonight, the koch network goes all in for nikki haley. apparently, they see her as a mainstream alternative to trump, but history suggests she's very much a radical right winger in sheep's clothing. but we begin tonight with what has become a new pattern in donald trump's pitiful defenses for his many, many, many, many legal woes. it is no longer enough to attack judges or prosecutors. which as we have all seen and heard, trump clearly has no problem doing. but now, he's shown how small a man he really is by choosing to go on the attack against their spouses. family members, and staff. which has been shown to lead to ongoing harassment and threats by trump's faithful followers. just this year, we have seen trump go on the attack against the wife and family of judge juan murshaun, who is overseeing the manhattan case tied to trump's hush money payments to adult film star stormy daniels. >> i have a trump hating judge with a trump hating wife and family. whose daughter worked for kamala harris and now receives money from the biden/harris campaign and a lot of it. >> he has done the same against the wife and family of special counsel jack smith. >> openly he's a trump hater. and his wife is even more of a trump hater. i wish her a lot of luck, but he's a bad trump hater and she's a trump hater. >> he's a raging and uncontrolled trump hater. as is his wife. >> the trump hating prosecutor in the case, he's -- his wife and family despise me much more than he does, and he -- i think he's about a ten, they're about a 15 on a scale of 10. >> and just yesterday, trump began levying the same attacks against the wife of judge arthur engoron, who is overseeing his new york civil fraud trial, including claiming that she and the judge's law clerk, who trump has also made the focus of his ire, are the ones controlling the new york trial. mind you, trump's attacks are based on tweets he claims are from the judge's wife. she told newsweek not only are the tweets not hers but that she does not even have a twitter account. in a positive move today, a new york court of appeals has reinstated a gag order against trump in that case again, prohibiting him from making any comments about anyone on judge engoron's staff. you may recall that the judge originally announced the gag order after trump made his first attack against engoron's law clerk, to reporters right outside the courtroom. judge engoron responded to today's ruling warning trump's attorneys in court that he intends to rigorously and vigorously enforce it. he did not make any mention of trump's attacks on his wife, who at this time would not be covered under the present gag order. and this comes as we are still awaiting a ruling on the fate of the gag order in the federal election case, which has a larger scope, prohibiting trump from attacking potential witnesses, court employees, prosecutors, and yes, their families too. joining me now is lisa reuben, msnbc legal analyst and dave aronberg, state attorney for palm beach county, florida. thank you both for being here. i want to quickly read your chris kise, his attorney's statement. tragic day for the rule of law in a country where the first amendment is sacrosanct, president trump, he's not president, can't even comment on why he believes he can't get a fair trial. hard to imagine this is happening in america. what is really hard to imagine is trump actually believes he is quote/unquote not getting a fair trial because of the judge's wife. and yet, was there any explanation as to why the gag order was not only reinstated but not expanded to include the families of the people involved? >> well, joy, generally wouldn't be the place of an appellate court to expand a gag order or rewrite it in that way. in terms of why judge engoron has not written a new gag order to cover his wife, i can't say. but i think the explanation in the gag order wasn't much of an explanation at all, just said having read the papers that had been filed by all three of the interested parties, that's former president trump and his lawyers, the new york attorney general, letitia james and her team, and judge engoron himself as represented by the court system, the four judges in the appellate division in new york who heard this motion decided not only were they going to vacate the interim stay, but they were going to deny trump's motion for a longer term stay while his lawsuit against judge engoron for having imposed the gag order in the first place, which he continues to insist is unconstitutional, remains pending. for the duration of the trial, donald trump and his lawyers will remain subject to this gag order because the pending appeal or petition will not be resolved in time for the trial to end. it will end on january 11th with closing arguments. >> you know, dave, donald trump is a thug. i mean, that is just clear. he's been a thug from the time he ran for office, getting his crowds to attack protesters inside of the actual, you know, events. and he's now unleashed these attacks on people who aren't even connected to the case, just married at someone he's mad at. this is the result, nbc has a headline about that. they were detailed in this new court filing. his initial truth post that prompted the gag order resulted in hundreds of threatening and harassing voice mail messages that have been transcribed into over 275 single spaced pages, last week, we learned that the wife of this judge received -- i'm sorry, the clerk receives 20 to 30 calls a day to her personal cell phone, and 30 to 50 messages a day on social media and personal email combined. we know what the results and the threats are to the people that trump is harassing. what possible enforcement threats can be made against him? because he is a former president running for president. >> joy, i'm a little disappointed at the lack of enforcement. of all his cases, only two judges, excuse me, only one judge has enforced the gag order, judge engoron. there are two gag orders on the book, and judge engoron enforced it twice for a total of $15,000. that's not a lot for a self professed billionaire, when his supporters claim it's a two-tiered justice system, maybe they're right but not in the way they're thinking. donald trump is treated differently than any other criminal defendant i know of. if someone lashed out at the judge, the judge's family, attorneys, they would have been sanctioned long ago, perhaps even wearing an orange jumpsuit, as of now, all we have seen is $15,000 in fines. judge engoron said he's going to enforce this gag order rigorously, but this gag order is already limited. it only affects the judge's staff, no one else. >> lisa, this is the problem. the impact potentially on the people trump is attacking is potential injury or worse, because donald trump leads what is a cult that includes violence, known violence, violence we have seen, violence we have seen on tape, violence we have seen people arrested for. his people, his base will threaten to kill anyone who they think doesn't like trump, is a trump hater. we have seen it. so essentially, the risks to the people he's attacking are huge. they are literally life and death. the risks to him, to dave's point, are like a $15,000 fine. has there been any indication those risks are going to be ratcheted up in some way that will make an impact on this person? >> interesting that you ask that, joy, because judge engoron obviously today when he learned about the reinstatement of the gag order, he told all those assembled in his courtroom that it had been done. he affirmed that he intends to enforce it rigorously and vigorously. and when he fined donald trump previously, he made clear that in addition to fines, he was prepared to ratchet it up beyond that, including and up to imprisonment. whether or not the next violation will get to that point remains to be seen. it also remains to be seen whether trump, who now will have to understand he'll live with this gag order throughout the duration of the trial, will provoke judge engoron to face that decision. there's a part of me that thinks he wants to, because it is a fund-raising juggernaut for him, and nothing galvanizes trump supporters like grievance. trump used to put himself up on a pedestal, and project this atmosphere of you want to be like me. now, he's brought himself back down and said to his supporters, i am you. and that identification with him, while bringing trump down to earth in a way, also fuels this atmosphere of violence and hatred, because they believe that he is their retribution, as he keeps telling them. goes to jail.be scared if he bullies are usually cowards. dave, there's abc news reporting on the other, one of his many other cases. this is the one where he stole classified documents and took them home to his ballroom and put them in the bathroom. apaurnltly one of his lawye who is still his lawyer in another case, jennifer little, has told the special counsel's team she told donald trump if he did not comply with the demand to turn over classified documents, it would be a crime. she said donald trump absolutely understood what she said. this came before trump told his aides to remove dozens of boxes and hide them from his lawyer before he went down to do this search. give us the implications of that. one of his own lawyers say she told him straight up, it's a crime if you don't give the documents back or give the stuff back after your lawyer has certified you have. >> joy, it goes to trump's state of mind, which is a required element when you're dealing with obstruction and the espionage act about willful retention. here we have another lawyer who informed trump that he had to give back the documents. he was put on notice, so when trump says, well, the presidential records act protects me y knew i didn't have to give it back. no, your lawyer is contradicting you, and the other lawyer, evan corcoran, has contemporaneous notes that jack smith has, so they corroborate each other, and it's damning when your own lawyers are the best witnesses against you. and that's why this mar-a-lago documents case is the strongest case against trump of all the cases and also because judge cannon has been slow walking the case, the least likely to be tried before the election. >> yep. she's been helping him out a whole lot. going to leave it there. lisa reuben, dave aronberg, thank you both very much. up next on "the reidout," it's tempting to look at the maga wing of congress and write it off as a clown show, but behind the funny makeup, oversized shoes and squeaky red noses there's a real threat to american democracy, and the rights that many of us now take for granted. congressman adam schiff joins me when "the reidout" continues. with an array of active ingredients... and sizes to relieve your pain. salonpas. it's good medicine. honey, i think i heard something. ok. ♪ from christmas tree mats... to floorliners... cargo liners.... no drill mud flaps... seat protectors... and more... weathertech has the perfect holiday gift. honey, is everything ok? oh yeah. order at weathertech.com and don't forget weathertech gift cards. at bombas we make the comfiest socks, underwear, and t-shirts that feel good and most of all do good. because when you purchase one, we donate one to those in need. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first purchase. bombas. give the good. hi, my name's steve. vi lost 138 pounds on golo0% off your first purchase. and i kept it 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biden with absolutely no evidence, they'll meet tomorrow, with absolutely no evidence, they'll meet tomorrow to discuss those am plans including a potential vote to authorize an impeachment inquiry. former house speaker kevin mccarthy had refused to schedule a formal vote, but according to republican leaders, this time, the vote would be to re-enforce subpoenas from the house oversight committee, which is the height of hypocrisy since two key members of that very committee, jim jordan and scott perry, defied subpoenas from the house january 6th committee and a court filing unsealed briefly wednesday by the d.c. circuit court of appeals sheds new light on just how closely congressman scott perry was involved in trying to mount a coup for donald trump. including texts between perry and justice department lawyer jeffrey clark during the period when trump was considering installing clark as acting attorney general. to push claims of nonexistent voter fraud. on december 30, 2020, perry texts clark, quote, potus seems very happy with your response. i read it just as you dictate it. clark replied, i'm praying. this makes me quite nervous and i wonder if i'm worthy or ready. perry responded, you are the man. i have confirmed it. god does what he does for a reason. within days of those texts, trump formally tried to install clark as acting attorney general. his plot was thwarted by a threat of mass resignations by justice department officials if clark was put in charge. joining me is congressman adam schiff of california who served on the january 6th house committee. congressman, i want to get you to react to the fact that some of your fellow members of congress duly-elected members were this active in this attempt to subvert the justice department basically hijack it and steal the election for trump. >> well, it just shows how little their oath of office really meant to them. here they were, conspiring to overturn the election in the case of the text messages you read, you had a representative perry reaching out to jeffrey clark, someone completely unqualified to be attorney general. >> an environmental lawyer. >> an environmental lawyer, not particularly well thought of at the department. but whose only real qualification was his willingness to do anything for donald trump. >> yeah. >> his willingness to enlist others to try to help overturn the election, his basic unscrupulousness was his qualification. nothing short of a threat of mass resignation stopped trump from appointing him. but certainly, perry didn't stop. perry was trying to push him, elevate him, put him in a position where he could use the power of the justice department to help overturn the election. >> what do you make of the fact that, i mean, some of the key architects of the attempts to overthrow the election have been rewarded with more power. the current speaker of the house was one of the main people, if fought the main person pushing the big lie, trying to get people to sign on to overthrow the election. scott perry, who sought a pardon, according to cassidy hutchinson. none of these people have paid a price. the people who have paid a price are people like liz cheney, who is out of power and out of office. >> sadly, that's exactly right. indeed, when you look at the effort to replace mccarthy, thomas emmer, who was emnnltly qualified, was essentially disqualified because he wasn't a proponent of the big lie. and what we found out in that speakership fight was the prerequisite to being the leader of the republican party in congress is you must be willing to lie for donald trump. you must be willing to undermine our democracy. if you're not, you're not qualified to run this conference. we did end up with a speaker who was very involved in the litigation to overturn this election and we still have a judiciary committee chairman who ignored subpoenas of the january 6th committee and was also one of the architects in the house of overturning the election. the only ones who did pay a political price were liz cheney, adam kinzinger, those who lived up to their oath of office. and i think history will reflect very well on them. but it has been a bitter shock to me and many others that the liz and adams have been so few in number. that the vast, vast majority of republicans cared far more about holding their office than they ever did about the oath of office. or anything else. >> i love that you presume history will still be legal to tell i'm going to hold on to that hope. speaking of jim jordan, that's who you talking about who is a committchair. this is what cnn is reporting out of liz cheney's new book. during her gop conference call, cheney writes that house judiciary chairman jim jordan was dismissive of the legal process for challenging the election results and didn't seem to think the rules mattered. the only thing that matters is winning, jordan said, according to cheney. he doesn't necessarily believe it. >> i think that is perfectly consistent with what i have observed of jim jordan, which is it's always been my sense that for him politics is just a game. it's like a sport. there's your team, there's our team. you lie, you cheat, you steal, you do whatever you can to win. and i'm convinced that if he got benched by the republicans he would offer to play for the democrats. i don't think there is any real ideology there. i think it's self promotion, kind of an enjoyment of the sport of it. but in terms of policy, in terms of devotion to country, i don't see any of evidence of that. >> let's go to the other end of the spectrum, a true believer or a very good actor. clay higgins, one of the weirdest members of the opposing caucus. he seems to believe the fbi did january 6th. here he is talking about what he thinks needs to happen to jack smith. take a look. >> so i just say his days are numbered. and american patriots are not going to stand idly by, good sir, and allow our republic to dissolve. we're prepared to fight legally and peacefully, and within the parameters of the constitution. with every ounce of our might and focus. >> at least he said legally and peacefully within the bounds of the constitution. what in the world is he talking about? >> i don't know what he's talking about, but you do see this phenomenon, you see it with trump, thinly veiled threats or not even thinly veiled threats and then an effort to equivocate on the other side so the listener can take whatever message they want from it. but without any mistaking, what he's saying is justice system doesn't matter. anyone who is prosecuting their party leader is therefore somehow illegitimate. the rule of law doesn't apply to donald trump. and that's where their base is. and that is a radical departure from where either party has ever been. in the past, i think people disavowed those that were involved in criminal activity. and were reluctant to attack the justice system. they would say, let the justice system do its will. th