>> he wants him because he's making a fool of himself saying we ain't got nothing but a squirrel fire and a hound dog -- says something like that. >> what was the first one? >> squirrel fryer. >> oh, fryer. >> right. >> by the way, speaking of eating fried squirrel, did you hear about the new liz cheney book that came out, willie? >> yes. >> there's a lot there. but here's my -- >> what a jump around, joe. >> here's my favorite line from it, though. kevin mccarthy -- >> oh, no. >> -- justifying his trip to mar-a-lago by saying three words that nobody has ever said about donald trump. he's not eating. now all i can say -- >> no! >> -- is this: if kevin mccarthy's job was to go down to mar-a-lago to get donald eating again, well, he did a hell of a job. >> yeah. >> because that ain't been a problem since. wasn't really a problem before. you know, maybe if he said, i got to go down to mar-a-lago because donald is cheating on his wind sprints we'd believe that. but he's not eating, i don't believe it, willie, what say you this early morning? >> we're getting the excerpts out of the book and there's a lot of devastating stuff in there but nothing more heartbreaking than hearing kevin mccarthy say he had to rush to donald trump's bedside because, quote, he's not eating after the election results of, after january 6th and having to leave the white house. it's an ailing mother or father, she's not eating we have to be at her bedside. and that's why after january 6th, kevin mccarthy rushed to donald trump's bedside and got him his bucket of kfc or whatever it was. >> the last vision was the ailing donald lying in the that bed with an empty bucket of kfc over his head. >> on his tummy. >> well, the chicken was on his -- >> yeah. >> come on. he's not eating. >> that's pathetic. >> you want to go to mar-a-lago that badly. come on, kevin, make a better excuse than that. >> i can't. >> but anyway, on this comber thing as you were asking me, he says, come to our committee. so hunter says, okay. i'll come to your committee. he goes, all right. we better do this in private now. now they don't want the american people to see what hunter biden has to say. they've been spraying bs for a year about this guy, two years about this guy, if he was innocent he'd come down to our committee. well, the coming down to the committee. and now oh, no, we don't want it to be public. we don't want the public to see it, we'll hide it behind closed doors. >> and hunter biden called their bluff, i'm not going to do in private and let you cherry pick what i said and go on fox news after and say things i didn't say, put it in public so the blic can decide for themselves and now they're saying not sure we want that to happen because the point of the exercise is to spin this and jamie raskin put out a statement crtallizing the situation. quote, let me g this straight, he said, after wailing and moaning for ten months about hunter biden and eluding to some vast family conspiracy, chairman comber and the oversight republicans now reject his offer to appear before the full committee and the eyes of the world and answer any questions they pose. what an epic humiliation for our colleagues and a frank confession that they're not interested in the facts and have no confidence in the case or the ability of their members to pursue it. this is james comer the man who said there's smoke here, no fire yet. apparently still looking for the fire. >> and jonathan lemire, he's not the only one who said that. the wall street journal editorial page said all smoke no fire. that was months ago. here we are again, comer once again making a fool of himself. he can't invent evidence. i know they're all desperately trying for him to invent evidence. he can't invent evidence that's not there. so again, the ultimate humiliation, all we hear is hunter biden, hunter biden is afraid to talk. hunter biden is now saying, okay, that's cool. i'm coming. and now, it's comer and his gang that are running for the hills. >> it's the -- >> and their coon hats holding a squirrel fryer in their left hand and a shotgun in the right. >> it's the gang that couldn't shoot straight when it comes to this investigation. everything they've done they've done poorly, it's led to more infighting with republicans. they're yet to find a there there. no wrong doing with the president. and hunter biden does face some criminal charges separate, though, to what the republicans are investigating. and this is just one colossal embarrassment after the other, this is hunter biden's new more aggressive defense strategy, i'll come, i'll come in public but i'm not going to let you shape my words i want everyone to hear my account by myself. the other word last night, in my texts and others. why comer is doing this about face. and that word is benghazi, they've tried to have public hearings before, they've pack fired. tried to humiliate hillary clinton and hillary clinton defeated them in front of the cameras broadcast live to the nation. and there are some republicans fearful and the stakes on this one perhaps lower, but they made hunter biden such a bog gi man for his father ahead of the re-election campaign they're afraid he could get up there and testify. >> we have more on this in a few minutes. but first we're going to turn to the prospect of more hostages freed today from the gaza strip. it comes after ten israelis and two thai nationals were brought back to israel territory yesterday. in return, israel re-lewised 30 palestinian prisoners. it came after they agreed to extend the humanitarian pause for an additional two days. the terrorist group has freed 81 pele since the temporary cease-fire began on friday. while israel has released 180 palestinian prisoners. it is believed about 240 people were taken captive during the october 7th terrorist attack in israel. the white house said eight or nine americans are still being held hostage. meanwhile, cia director bill burns is now in qatar discussing the hostage release deal and the potential for a broader agreement. joining us now from tel aviv chief foreign correspondent richard engel with more on all of this. richard? >> reporter: we are expecting to see more hostages released today, because this is the last full day of this truce after it was extended for two days. the big question, what will happen after midnight tonight? israel says unless hamas continues to handover hostages it will resume the military campaign and there are two groups in particular that want to see this cease-fire extended badly. they are the families of the hostages who want to buy more time because so far this truce has been working. it's been very delicate but generally it's working with each day, hamas releasing around 10 to 12 prisoners, sometimes a few more. and in exchange, israel releasing about 30 or 30 plus palestinian prisoners. the people of gaza desperately want this to be extended because during this last six days, they've been able to get some food aid, they've been able to go to their houses, we've been able to be in contact with people. much of gaza is destroyed so their lives are still incredibly difficult, there's very little food, drinking water, but it's better than being under constant assault. the hostages hope with each day there is the chance that their loved ones could be included on the precious freedom list. for israel it's a simple matter. israel said it will extend the truce as long as hamas keeps releasing every day around 10 hostages. at least 10 hostages, but hamas is running out of women and children. so now the negotiations are focused on convincing hamas to start releasing male prisoners and hamas still has quite a few male prisoners and there are other women and children in gaza held by other groups. so it is not hopeless. hamas could be convinced to release some of the male prisoners, particularly some of the male hostages, particularly some of the elderly ones. but so far we have not seen any break through and there are deep concerns particularly for the people of gaza and the families that unless there's a break through at the end of the day today, midnight, perhaps tomorrow morning, the bombing could resume again. >> so richard, good news, of course, to have hostage coming home, particularly some of the young children and senior citizens we see reunited with their families. do you pick up any suspicion from israeli officials that hamas keeps extending the deadlines for pr on one hand, we're releasing hostages but also to buy hamas more time to reconstitute itself and to effectively stop the assault there. how is israel looking at the balance of these two things. war on the one hand and rescuing of the hostages on the other? >> reporter: so israel has several competing objectives here. israel does want these hostages to be released. the israeli government is under pressure, prime minister netanyahu personally is deeply unpopular because the october 7th attack happened in the first place and because the hostages are still there. so as long as hostages are coming out, israel does have an incentive to pause its military operations. its troops are already in gaza and there's no talk at this stage of those israeli troops coming out. so israel is preparing for a long-term military campaign. israel said the goal is regime change in gaza. that could take years. might never succeed but it is not a short-term objective. so as long as the hostages are still coming out, it seems that israel is quite happy -- not happy, but quite willing to allow this process to continue. the ball at this stage is really in hamas' court. can it gather additional women and children from other groups inside gaza and is it willing to make the decision to start releasing men? older men or the most sensitive group for hamas, military-age men and women who it considers to be soldiers. >> nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel in tel aviv for us. let's bring in retired navy admiral james starvids. how do you look at this, first if you're israel get your people home and measuring that against your objective to defeat hamas, eliminate it so it can't do what it did on october 7th. >> my sympathy in this case is with the israeli defense forces. this is a difficult military problem to begin with, to take down the city of 1.2 million in the north, gain control of it, destroy that tunnel complex now let's add a degree of difficulty, which includes hostages and that has to be the top of the priority list, i expect it will be. i expect we'll see the cease-fire move along with additional releases. make no mistake about it, i talk to my sources in israel, here in the united states, the israelis are going to get back to business when the hostage situation goes stagnant. and at that point they'll search for the hostages. they'll try and find them. they'll try and rescue them. but alongside that, willie, they're going to unleash additional military force. final thought here. i believe that the biden administration is working very hard to get the israelis to dial down the lethality as it pertains to civilians. that's smart for israel. it's not only the right thing to do, it'll help them win the information war, which they are losing right now. >> so, admiral, based on your vast experience through the decades, based upon the deep contacts you have with the israeli defense forces, give us an idea of what the costs are and the tradeoff. we certainly understand the hostages are first priority. these are extraordinary scenes we're seeing and such relief with every hostage being released. we can hold that truth right here in our minds but over here, how much -- how much does israel's military situation degrade every day the cease-fire goes on, and how strengthened is hamas by each day that israel delays in rooting up this terror network. >> joe, you put your finger on it. what is happening is, always the way in war which is that a cease-fire, a pausing with however you want to call it, always favors the weaker side and militarily that is hamas. so what's happening in real time those tunnels under gaza, 300 miles of tunnels, hamas is re-arming, re-supplying, maneuvering their troops around, building in booby traps, ieds and explosive devices, shielding those hostages. they're strengthening their position. so if you go to the israeli pentagon today, they are challenged deeply and thinking through their responses, joe. so i think the other question is, after the cease-fire ends, what does the military response look like and i think it will not be the kind of heavy bombing that you've been seeing. i think it'll be more helicopters, less big bombs. it'll be more special forces, less tanks crunching through neighborhoods. you'll see a shift in how the israeli military approaches both to the north and then eventually they're going to go to the south. they're not going to leave south gaza to become a replay at the end of the day. >> as you say the fact that it's going to be more targeted is not only going to be good for the civilians, it is going to be good for israel strategically. it's going to be good for israel diplomatically, it's going to allow them to continue without losing because i -- certainly -- i know you have too, but i've been hearing from across the middle east, a lot of nervous arab countries that want to be israel's allies saying this can't continue much longer we won't be able to form these strategic alliances. so i want to put this in its starkest terms. and i can ask you this as a military man. let's be really blunt about this. we are seeing these celebrations -- >> reunions. >> these reunions, they're extraordinarily -- this needs to be done. this needs to be done. >> yep. >> but i don't think anybody should make any mistake of it that giving hamas this time is going to likely lead to the deaths of more israeli soldiers down the road. more israeli soldiers are going to die either because they're setting up land mines, because they're repositioning in a way where they're going to be able to kill more israeli soldiers. there is going to be that trade off and we need to understand that, right? >> absolutely. this is a big reason, frankly, that this administration's secret weapon, ambassador bill burns, is on foot patrol through the region. making those points quietly behind closed doors. we forget this about bill burns. we think of him as a former ambassador to russia, deputy secretary of state, now director of the cia. what did he do before all that? he's a fluent arab speaker, posted throughout much of his career in the arab world. he'll do everything he can behind closed doors in his role as director of the cia to move this in a positive direction. that, joe, holds the balance, as you point out correctly, between israeli's needs for their security and the humanitarian crisis unfolding it's a delicate dance and i'm glad ambassador burns is there. >> some of the best players in the foreign policy world are on the field. full tensions likely on full display today with the u.n. security council expected to discuss calls for a full cease-fire in the middle east. israel, of course, opposes that. while other countries, including china, have ramped up calls recently for a total end to the fighting. for more let's bring in janice mackie frayer live from beijing. what's at stake for china? >> reporter: with the temporary truce in gaza, there is this diplomatic push at the security council to have the pause become a fuller cease-fire, leading this debate, this meeting, is china which holds the presidency at this security council for one more day at a time beijing has been trying to position itself as a global player. it still isn't clear the extent to which china wants to wade into the mideast conflict beyond calling for stability in order to protect the vast economics in the region. it has relations with israel since the 1990s but that doesn't mean israel sees china as an impartial player. on the contrary, i sat down for a wide ranging interview yesterday on where the conflict stands and whether they see china taking a more meaningful role. she's been critical of china for not condemning hamas' october 7th attacks on israel and she said china needs to be more balanced. here's what she had to say. >> we thought it would be appropriate for china as security council permanent member to say something in the line that they condemn this terrorist organization hamas, this is something that we didn't hear. and also china is pushing very hard now for a cease-fire. a cease-fire is not what we need. >> reporter: do you feel like china is taking sides? >> china has always taken sides. since china is -- has not expressed any let's say pro-israeli statements in the past couple of weeks, apart from fraction of statements here and there. so we don't expect -- and china being the president of the united nations security council this month, right. so we don't expect major statements in favor of israel. >> reporter: china has been pushing for stability, it's calling for a cease-fire. it's calling for a two-state solution. all very broad statements over the past several weeks that lack any specifics or solid solutions. china's foreign minister is in new york for this meeting. this is a last push after a diplomatic blitz by china around the gaza conflict in the past several weeks. heavy on calls for humanitarian aid and also heavy on criticism of the united states for what china sees as meddling in the middle east given its backing for israel. at the end of the day most observers aren't convinced that china is going to make much difference on the ground. there's the sense that they're being opportunistic in trying to go for maximum international status with minimal cost. much the same posturing that we saw china take in its position on the war in ukraine. willie. >> fascinating interview. janis mackey frayer live in beijing for us. thanks. in if san francisco, they tried to prevail on president xi to step in on the hamas question and the ukraine/russia. >> china hasn't gone to aid russia's efforts with weapons but he hasn't told putin to knock it off and he hasn't been deemed helpful in the middle east. admiral, i'm curious as to what you think about a debate going on right now in washington, which is the idea of putting conditions on aid to israel. which is something we do -- the u.s. normally does with other countries but has not with israel by tradition. president biden over the weekend seemed open to it. entertained the thought but then the administration walked it back. we know there's a lot of political blow back from the left suggesting biden should do that. what do you think knowing from the military perspective, the importance of the aid to get there? >> i believe the policy we pursued thus far has been about right. which is to be extremely supportive of israel at this point but we are now approaching a place where we can actually help israel by quietly, behind closed doors, starting to move towards that kind of conditionality. again, i suspect that is happening behind closed doors is a good place for it. probably too soon at this stage to simply say, we're going to lockdown aid to israel until you do a, b and c. we're not quite there. we're moving in that direction. final thought, back to china for one second. what xi is doing here in terms of the security council and everything else, it's not just altruism. it's not just big power politics. it's also economics. china's economy is in the doll drums. and the worst thing that could happen would be a wider war in the middle east. he wants to put a cap on this thing. i think you're going to see the chinese lean in a positive way over time. >> and admiral, that leads to the last question i was going to ask you because we're talking about the dangers economically of a wider war in the middle east. we have seen the consequences of a war in eastern europe. i am curious, is it in china's interest and the united states' interest to come together as negotiators to bring an end to the ukrainian/russia war at some point? i know this is something that no one is supposed to say openly on tv or write about in editorials for fear of people saying you're bestraying the ukrainians. the fact is, people in the pentagon, as you know, almost a year ago were saying these lines are frozen -- >> yeah. >> -- maybe the spring offensive will work. we're very skeptical of that. this went all the way up the ranks. they called this back in february. they were right. these lines aren't going to move much more. at some point their diminishing returns. do we try to enlist china or do we move towards a negotiated settlement that locks in lines that the ukrainians may not like but locks in security assurances for ukraine that putin will hate? >> joe, as i look at it i am reminded of the korean war. we're approaching that 38th parallel, that frozen line and it is about to freeze as the winter comes. and when both sides hit that point, as you say, of diminishing returns, maybe they're already, that is the moment when a negotiation does start to make sense. and the idea of u.s. and china working together to do it, i think is not impossible. better would be it comes under the united nations, but to get the u.s. and china to focus on this, we all ought to be looking for a solution in ukraine, not a continuation of what we've got. >> all right. retired four star navy admiral james stavridis thank you for being on this morning. >> thanks, admiral. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll have more on hunter biden agreeing to testify publically before the house oversight committee. while the panel's republican chairman wants to keep things behind closed doors. we'll go over those revelations in a new book by former congresswoman liz cheney, including what prompted kevin mccarthy's visit to mar-a-lago following the january 6th attack on the 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[speaker continues in the background] the network with 24/7 built-in security. chip? at&t business. hunter biden may be headed to congress. he said he's willing to testify before the house oversight committee but only if it's televised he wants to do it in public, preferably too nude in a hot tub, smoking an unfiltered cigarette with a hooker. but republicans don't want that on tv if we don't do it behind closed doors, how are we expected to make stuff up. >> that's it. >> that's not even a joke. >> they've been trying to make things up and blaming the media for not reporting the things they've made up. again, everybody said they wanted this in the public, everybody asked what does hunter have to hide, why won't he testify? he now wants to testify publically because he's tired of the lies and the insinuations. and now he wants to testify publicly. and the republicans asking for this for months, for years. they got it and they don't want it, you know why? because the dog never knows what to do when it catches the car. and in this case they don't have the facts on their side. they're going to lose. >> and all those difficulties that jimmy kimmel was pointing to, mental health, addiction issues, he has written about in his book so they can read that as well. let's bring in mike barnicle, jennifer palmeri co-host of the podcast "how to win 2024," and nbc news national affairs analyst john heileman is with us. >> mike barnicle, i have quoted lyrics before on this show but never has the opening line of "send in the clowns" been so appropriate when these republicans begging for hunter biden's testimony get it and now they say they don't want it publically. isn't it rich, what clowns. >> jimmy kimmel nailed it. if he testifies in public they can't make it up behind closed doors. here's hunter biden's deal. he goes to the congress, responds to the congress, to the committee and says, yeah, i'll testify. i'll testify in public. put me under other, ask me anything you want, ask me anything and i'll reply in public in front of tv cameras, let's go, get it done. and what happens, predictably because they're a bunch of frauds in the committee, we can't do that. we have to close the doors so we can make stuff up when we leave the committee room and speak to fox news. >> they don't want the public to see it, mike, what does that say? >> just their version. >> it's like colonel jessup in "a few good men" they can't handle the truth. it goes against the narrative they've established and tried to establish every day for months and months. congressman comer especially. some of the things he says on tv are absolutely just fraudulent. he makes it up and he can't make it up if it's in public and we all watch it. >> hunter called their bluff, i'll come testify but i want everybody to hear it. now they've back pedaled. but also, this committee hasn't even pretended it has anything on joe biden himself which is their goal to find the head of the biden crime family as they call it, implicated in some great scandal. james comer said we've got a lot of smoke, which they created -- >> which they create in the their back room. >> -- but no fire, they're not even pretending joe biden did something. >> this is what happens when maga runs into reality. you see it in courtrooms where grand juries have handed back indictments indict the former president. the best example was 2015, october 2015, hillary clinton testifying before the benghazi committee. the 11 best hours of the presidential campaign. she's like what else do you have? that's what they're scared of, and they have from -- it's been going on for almost 10 years from the benghazi hearings to the special counsel that trump appointed that looked at hillary's for five years at the justice department. to what comer is trying to concoct in these hearing rooms, they're trying to manufacture falsehoods that they think will help them politically and they can't actually ever get it over the line. >> i tell you what, there's an element here, a political high wire act with hunter biden. you've read the stories we've talked about them when you read the stories, hunter biden is going on offense. the white house kind of going, we'd rather not have that. okay. the president loves his son but how about not going on offense, how about staying on quiet. so to call the bluff is a dramatic gesture. i'm going to do this, get on national television. could you imagine a better -- it's not just that he -- going in and performing well would be a huge triumph but even better to watch the committee back away the way they have now and expose themselves -- the committee has no clothes here, the emperors have no clothes. the biden campaign and the white house may be a moment of maybe hunter biden and abbe lowell know what they're doing. maybe they went on offense because they knew or suspected this would be the outcome. >> it feels better when you're controlling the situation. when you have agency and you're taking action and -- like they did. i think hunter testifying, you know, make it noted, most of the things like we've heard everything before he's written abt in his books, done interviews. him sitting at this witness table and republican members of congress giving him a hard time about difficult things in his life -- >> if you think about what's in the book, it's hard to imagine other than mike barnicle's auto biography. it's hard to imagine anything more horrifying than the things he's admitted to in the book. so what can happen on the stand in the committee room. >> the thing the committee room should be most afraid of is hunter has done damage to himself. the self-inflicted damage that hunter has done to himself is awful and he will cop to it, talk about it. the damage he's done to himself i'm sure is quite familiar to a whole host of families in this country. >> of course. >> this is another moment republicans have talked themselves into a corner. they have promised for so long to go after hunter biden, the so-called biden crime family, they have forced their hands. if they want to ward off primary charges from those further to the right, they have to deliver this, they feel like they have to try. >> a couple of star witnesses, one a business partner of hunter biden, didn't do anything with the president, put him on speaker phone at dinner but never talked about business. and the other star witness i think is still on the lamb, the guy who's an agent of the chinese government. that was a star witness who just vanished. >> jets starting quarterback. >> they tried to make a scandal out of that and then a couple of days later we find out the reason he's vanished, he's an international fugitive, illegal arms dealing, sold iranian oil, smuggled it illegally, to the communist chinese. this is comer's star witness. this is the republican party's star witness. i do want to underline, though, and for republicans who have ears to hear, hear. because this is what republicans, mika, have overlooked from the start of this hunter biden hunt that they're on. to try to find something to attack him. mike barnicle just said, every family or most families have a situation, maybe not just like hunter biden, but a situation where they don't want their children attacked publically. they look at joe biden as a father and say you have problems with joe biden, go after jobe. leave the kids alone. for the most part. that's the case. they still don't understand that in that first debate, when donald trump attacked hunter biden, attacked joe biden's son, they don't understand how much that backfired. there were conservative -- hard-core, right-wing, pro-trump conservatives whose articles i read, whose columns i read after that, who were outraged that donald trump went after another man's child. >> you know, voters know joe biden and that's the problem here. to your point, every family knows or struggles with mental health challenges or knows someone who has struggled and suffered as hunter has, and has done things that are against their core values. every family is struggling in some way. another thing voters are, many of them, parents. and when you go after joe biden's son, as you pointed out, the reason why it was such a turnoff is because not only was it his son, it was his remaining son. how sick can you be. especially when you don't have any evidence. by the way, at this point with people marjorie taylor greene putting up pictures of hunter biden that she scraped up off the internet at his worst moments what more does he have to lose than to go out and say hit me. come on, ask me anything at this point, you fools. so they've call them out on it. the other thing is, going after hunter biden is going after joe biden's remaining son. good luck with that. didn't work well last time. and remember, it's joe biden's son. it's not joe biden. as opposed to trump who has four indictments against him and $250 million civil suits and rape allegations. >> well, it -- the bottom line here is, what republicans need to understand is this backfires against them. it backfired against donald trump -- >> because it's cruel. >> -- it's backfiring against them. they can keep doing it if they want to, if they want to help joe biden. if they want to make joe biden more of a sympathetic figure, they can keep doing it but it doesn't work. that's the bottom line. >> so we'll be following this. we want to get more of the new revelations from liz cheney's book -- >> can i ask john heileman of that? what do you make of poor kevin mccarthy having to go down to an ailing donald trump who he said, i have to go down there liz, trump's not eating. what do you make of those revelations that the donald trump was in bed, depressed, and not eating, so his kevin had to go down to -- with a bucket of kentucky fried chicken. mar-a-lago, what the hell, kevin? they're really worried. trump's not eating. said nobody ever, john heileman. >> i can't. >> you know -- >> i can't. >> the kentucky fried chicken i think they got on site. he was taking down the cash of the star bursts, the orange or green ones you take out for trump. you take the candy down there. look, it's hilarious and stupid and obviously mccarthy was looking for a reason to go to mar-a-lago. he says some ridiculous thing, liz cheney is going to make hay out of the fact he said it but the idea that trump is not eating is inconceivable, the idea that's a reason to go is ridiculous. if true, your notion is you're kevin mccarthy you've been on the house floor hours after january 6th saying the president is responsible for an insurrection against the american government, an attempted coup. kevin mccarthy said it and a few days later he's on his way to mar-a-lago and his justification for it is the president is not eating. taken at face value, it's like, pete o'shea, he's feeling a little ill. the man is losing weight, dramatically. we'll go down and talk to paul pot. it's an absurd thing on face value to say and shows how transparent it was, mccarthy saw the way the winds were blowing, trump is in power i have to go pay homage to him. >> and why was he not eating? because his attempted coup failed. >> and what it reveals about this ridiculous defense to liz cheney, he knows, as he's known all along there are moments he stuck his head up and said so he knows what he's doing is wrong, dangerous to the democracy. >> so another scene that liz cheney -- talking about this new book, she's not out yet, she'll be with us in studio next week to talk about it. she describes a scene on capitol hill about the attack on january 6th. cheney writes how she was in the republican cloakroom where members are encouraged to sign their names on electoral vote election sheets, cheney writes most members knew it was a farce and another public display of fuelty to donald trump. she continues, among them was republican congressman mark green of tennessee as he moved down the line signing his name to the pieces of paper, green said sheepishly to no one in particular, quote, the things we do for the orange jesus. quoting a united states congressman talking about donald trump as they sign sheets of paper in an attempt to fraudulently overturn an american presidential election. >> and again, they know. >> they know. >> they know it's nonsense. they knew knew -- >> they all knew -- >> -- it was nonsense. and jonathan lemire you wrote the book on this. the current speaker of the house knew this was nonsense but he actually led the attempt to overthrow the united states government. let me say that again, the current speaker of the house led the attempt inside the house to overthrow election results of a presidential election, therefore overthrowing american democracy. he led it because as liz cheney said, he was so desperate to be in trump's circle. >> per orange jesus. >> he drafted the paperwork for the coup is what the new speaker did. it's a useful reminder of how completely in donald trump's sway these republicans were. they were willing to let him throw the temper tantrum after the election so they wouldn't have to concede. this includes mitch mcconnell who let him go for a long time. many of the members continue to do so even after the riots they still went through with their objections and efforts to install fake electors. willie, now very little has changed, in part because of the kevin mccarthy visit where he went to mar-a-lago and not just to deliver some mcdonald's but he apologized to donald trump s january 6th, and that was the beginning of trump's rehabilitation in the republican party and we have seen he is well on his way to being their nominee again. >> it was a pivotal moment as lindsey graham, he said i'm done, out, finished. we had a good ride together but i'm done with donald trump. and somebody was mean to him in the airport in washington, and he flipped. we talked about this off the air, too, as an adult, as a man, how do you look yourself in the mirror and say to your kids, when they say, but dad, or husband or friend or son, all the evidence says you shouldn't have done these things, this is all a lie? why are you doing this? what do you tell your kids? well, i had to do it because the big guy was real mad at us? >> here in the late november day in 2023, let's consider what we've talked about the last eight or nine minutes. one political party, the republican party, and i can only imagine the number of people who are watching this program or the number of people who are out there in the united states of america wondering about the republicans that we've talked about, about the party we're talking about, wondering, who are these people? who are they? they can't govern. they've proven they can't govern. they removed one speaker, poor kevin mccarthy, because he went down to feed the hungry in florida. you know, they took three or four weeks to get another speaker, a guy who is ideologically in the middle of the 19th century, not the 21st century. they haven't done one thing to lower the cost of gasoline by 2 or 3 cents, not one thing to lower the price of a dozen of eggs by a dime or 15 cents. in other words, they haven't done one thing for people they go after with the cheapest of cheap items, a man's son, who is an addict, an admitted addict. >> mike invoked something of a biblical flavor, feeding the hungry. joe, you're the closest thing we have as a pastor on this show. >> no, that's bad news. >> well, the he thens in our midst, but i think about mike johnson, mike johnson, if you want to understand me go look at the bible. if you read the bible you'll see who i am. you know, the invocation of orange jesus, perhaps ironic by marjorie taylor greene, it's like, you know, i think that -- i think if i'm right, ten commandants, thou shall have no other god before me and the third one, you shouldn't take the lord's name in vain. these self-styled, the speaker of the house, you know, if you want to understand me, read your bible. there's a pretty basic thing. ten commandments. he's like the leader of the cult to orange jesus and this is -- there's so many hypocrisies among this group, but there is something so jarring to hear the invocation, even in a maybe comic way, of portraying trump and treating him as if he is, in fact, their messiah. you got to kind of ask the question, someone has to go up to mike johnson at some point and ask him the question, you know, sir, you know, you said look at the bible. i've looked. how do you feel about orange jesus? can we get your comment, please. >> it's true. because he is their savior. that's how they treat him. >> he keeps losing. >> you can look at quotes from so-called evangelical leaders, look at quotes from so-called christian nationalists, they hold him up as an idol. i mean, read jeremiah, about what jeremiah says about what happens to followers of god when they worship idols. they become worthless, like the idols themselves. in this case, david french, who is far closer to being in the pastoral realm than i will ever be, like almost full circle there, david french said, wait a second. read the bible? read the bible and you'll know what the new speaker -- he said no, just the opposite. this is the great irony, he became speaker in part because he propagated the biggest lie that has ever been propagated in the u.s. government in our lifetime, in our lifetime. he sits on a throne built on lies. in fact, built on the biggest lie that was an attempt to overthrow the government. it's a lie that he knows is a lie, but he did it anyway, and as liz cheney said, why did the speaker lie? the speaker lied because he wanted power. the speaker lied because he said i have to be in trump's circle. he lied for power, and as david french so eloquently wrote in "the new york times," when mike johnson became speaker, he said, not only is there nothing in the bible or in the new testament, in the gospels and sermon on the mount that would justify this, in fact, what this man has done is the antithesis of everything jesus ever spoke about. read the bible. not even close. not even close. maybe, i don't know, john, jefferson had his own bible where jefferson cut out the verses that were inconvenient to him. maybe, maybe these christian nationalists should do the same and just invent their own bible, invent their own gospels because as david french said, there's nothing that mike johnson has done, nothing in his government service, nothing in his lust for power, lust, lust for the speaker's gavel that has anything to do with what jesus christ preached about when he was here on earth. >> joe, that was exactly the kind of reaction i was hoping from you, and i will give you an amen. >> yeah. >> amen. >> yeah. he's already rewriten the bible. john heilemann, thank you very much. >> i expected john to respond. >> well -- >> how could i top that? what's there to add to that? >> there's nothing. >> well said, joe. amen. >> what do you catholics say? what is it something in response or whatever. >> call and response. >> sure. >> there you go. >> i have the call. you had the response. what else do you want from me? >> thank you, john heilemann. >> call and response. >> as willie mentioned, liz cheney is going to be our guest next tuesday on "morning joe" and we'll talk more with her about her book and her experience with this unbelievable situation. as we go to break, here is bob vanderplat, a top evangelical leader in iowa, explaining why he is not backing donald trump for president, saying voters in his state are done with the former president. >> trump deserved to lose my endorsement. as a matter of fact, i have nef endorsed him. but he proved he was not worthy of the endorsement, of me, of the ministry, by extension, the broader body. and i believe iowa will rise up, i believe iowa will send a message on january 15 because i think they're seeing through this as well. this is smoke and mirrors. this is not leadership our country needs. are you worthy to be followed? are moms and dads, grandpas and grandmas willing to point to you, and say grow up to be like him or her? i told people in 2019 in jerusalem, and we knew the 2020 election was coming upon us and i told them, the number one hurdle for donald trump is, i've never met a dad or mom or grandpa or grandma that told me they want their son or daughter or grandchild to grow up to be like him. that's a big deal. safety information a(car engine revs)m (engine accelerating) (texting clicks) (tires squeal) (glass shattering) (loose gravel clanking) the power goes out and we still have wifi to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. home of the xfinity 10g network. welcome back to "morning joe." it's the top of the hour. live look at washington, d.c., as commuters head in and out of the city. it is wednesday, november 29th. and jen palmieri are with us.e i'll get to our top story, talks are now under way to once again extend the pause in fighting between israel and hamas. this as today is the last full day of the temporary truce. hamas is expected to release more hostages in the coming hours. yesterday 12 people were brought back into israeli territory including two thai nationals. in exchange, israel freed 30 palestinian prisoners. chief foreign correspondent richard engel has the very latest. >> reporter: intense negotiations are under way to extend what happens has been this six-day cease-fire between hamas and israel. it is expected to end tonight, and there are expected to be more hostages released, roughly ten under the terms of the deal about to expire, but we are hearing from senior diplomatic sthursz both sides are expressing a willingness to have an extension, at least two days, perhaps more than that. at hamas would have to do to gain that extension is it would have to find more hostages, be willing to release more hostages, particularly women and children. that is what has been agreed to so far. hamas says that it will free all of the women and children that it has, but hamas doesn't hold all of the women and children in gaza. there are other militant groups that hold several dozen of them. hamas is in the process now of collecting the women and children that were spread out in -- from its perspective safe locations in gaza in order to hand them over. it is still very fluid, very delicate. it could fall apart, but what i'm hearing at this stage is there is some optimism that this deal could be extended potentially for two more days, but we will wait for an official announcement. the negotiations seem to be heading in that direction. >> richard engel reporting for us from tel aviv. joining us jerry bash, an nbc news national security analyst and reporter for politico, laura segalman. good to have you with us this morning. >> jeremy, we talked to admiral stavridis last hour about the challenges that are going to be facing -- >> or the tradeoffs. >> the tradeoffs between the scenes of joy and a these wonderful reunions that we're seeing, versus the cost down the road to the israeli army. what are your main concerns right now as we're seeing these images on our screen that bring such happiness and joy to all of us? what's your concern, though, about what's quietly going on deep underground in gaza with hamas? >> yeah. two things, joe and mika, i'm thinking about this morning. first of all we still have nine americans who are being held hostage in gaza. let me say that again. we still have nine americans at this hour being held hostage by hamas or their other terrorist affiliates. >> jeremy, can i interrupt? >> please. >> also remind people what a former member of the intel community reminded me this morning, 20 americans were killed on october the 7th. we have americans who have been killed, and we have nine americans who are still being held hostage. it's almost like those americans have been forgotten by a certain segment of american society who say that we need to somehow make nice with hamas. >> absolutely. and just for the benefit of your viewers, here are the first names, segi, idan, herb, keith, gadi, judy, liat. if those nine americans are held, their families many gathering in washington today because they're meeting with members of congress and other folks from the administration and the government, they need our constant attention and constant focus. it's one of the missions of ambassador burns in the region, main mission of secretary blinken who will be in israel tomorrow, focus on getting those nine american hostages out. one of those hostages, herb golbert, you've had his parents on "morning joe," he was grievously wounded. he's a military-aged male, but hamas have leased other people wounded. he needs to be released for an humanitarian exception so he can get his wounds treated and his rehabilitation started. it's vital israel regain intelligence dominance so they can find, fix, and finish the location of terrorists and find, fix and finish the location of hostages in the next phase of the war. i agree with admiral stavridis, the moment large-scale bombing campaigns from the air and standoff weapons is going to recede and probably a more intelligence-driven counterterrorism mission from here on out. >> the united states has a big role to play into how this plays out going forward. yesterday the president of the united states saying two things, a little bit different from each other. one is that we will not rest, we will not stop working until every hostage held by hamas has been returned safely. that's one thing. on the other hand, he said israel has to be careful not giving hamas what it wants, which means civilian casualties and them saying we're the victim in all this, hamas. how do you view the president's role here? how much pressure should he be applying to prime minister netanyahu? >> yeah. i think the president has struck the right tone and said to the world that there is a moral clarity to this crisis. israel was the victim. hamas is a brutal terrorist organization that ultimately must be degraded. if you care about peace, if you care about a two-state solution, reconciliation between israelis and palestinians, you want hamas defeated. hamas would be an enemy of any palestinian-israeli peace process. i think the president has struck exactly the right tone, yes, in private there's going to be advice, there's going to be deconfliction, there's going to be discussion about aid corridors, intelligence sharing. there's going to be weapons sharing. it is one of the reasons it's so important. we're going to turn to it. that congress passed this aid page for israel so that israel can continue to take the fight to hamas. we've outsourced this terror campaign, counterterrorism campaign i should say, outsourced this to israel. we need them to have the intelligence, the weapons, we need them to have the benefit of american support. >> on that note, lara, you've be dng reporting on how the pentagons its into money for the buildup of military assets in the middle east. the military the rest of the federal government is funding measure that freezes spending at the previous years levels. because the troop movemts were not planned the pentagon had to pull money from existing operations and maience accounts, d.o.d. spokeerson chris sherwood told you. that means less funding for training, exercises and deployments t military planned for the year. some contracal payments could be delayed, sherwood said. the buildup in the middle ea which included extending the deployment of the gerald r. ford carrier strike group off the coast of israel has forced the military departments and u.s. central command to reassess the requirements for current and future operations based on the developing conflict, he said. that's from your reporting, lara. what's the bottom line here? what is the pentagon asking for? >> so, the bottom line here is that the pentagon really has a money problem right now. it's supporting wars on two fronts in ukraine and in israel, and crucially, in israel, it sent so much fire power to the region, two additional aircraft carriers, additional fighter jets, additional troops, hundreds of troops, and it doesn't actually have the money to pay for that right now. as you said, the government is under a continuing resolution, a stopgap spending measure that freezes spending at last year's spending levels. the fact that these movements weren't planned, means that pentagon has had to pull that funding from elsewhere in the department. now, the pentagon is no stranger, of course, to operating under a continuing resolution. unfortunately, this does happen almost every year, but now is just a particularly bad time for this to happen with so much going on, so much on the pentagon's plate, and it could get worse if congressional dysfunction, this impasse lasts into april, all of the federal departments, including the pentagon, are going to face another cut, a 1% across-the-board funding cut, and there's going to be even less money for that. i should also say that this is -- there's so much happening right now, that all these troops are under threat in the middle east. we just saw on sunday that there were two ballistic missiles that were shot by houthi rebels close to the "uss mason" operating there in the gulf of aden. there's been 73 attacks on u.s. forces in iraq in syria since october 17th, so clearly u.s. troops are putting themselves in harm's way, and it doesn't seem like there's going to be any resolution to this conflict any time soon. >> lara, that's a great point about the troops in harm's way. one of the arguments the white house tried to make to get a real deal done through congress, we need to replenish our own military supplies, weapons, munitions and the like, because we have sent so much to ukraine and lesser extent israel. give us an update there, just how low are u.s. supplies? how low is the pentagon running? >> so this is something that people at the pentagon are grappling with. i think that people say that they have enough weapons in our own coffers right now, there are certain levels that pentagon will not go below of certain weapons, for instance, the atacms we are sending ukraine, that's a big one, but i do think that as we see these conflicts extend, we're sending more and more weapons to ukraine, billions and billions of dollars we're seeing more and more weapons, that the u.s. is sending to israel, we transferred many weapons out of our reserve stockpiles which are all around europe and in israel, i think that is going to become even more of a pressing issue and why the president has sent the supplemental to the hill for $106 billion, about $60 billion to replenish our stocks for ukraine, $14 billion to replenish our stocks for israel, and we can't continue sending these weapons until we have the money to replenish that. >> pentagon reporter for politico, lara seligman, and jeremy bash, thank you both very much for being on this morning. we are learning more about the extent to which former vice president mike pence has cooperated with prosecutors in the federal election interference case against donald trump. sources tell abc news that in interviews with special counsel jack smith's team earlier this year, pence went into great detail about trump's actions in the aftermath of the 2020 election, leading up to the january 6th attack on the capitol. abc news sources say pence allegedly told prosecutors that within days of the vote, trump started sharing, quote, un-american legal theories about a stone stolen election. the sources say pence told investigators he repeatedly expressed to trump he hadn't seen evidence of widespread voter fraud, but the then president was unmoved. later, trump alledgedly pushed pence not to preside over the sert if ication of electoral college votes on january 6th, according to abc news sources, something the former vice president briefly considered. before changing his mind, pence reportedly wrote in his own personal notes, quote, not feeling like i should attend electoral count. too many questions, too many doubts, too hurtful to my friend. therefore, i'm not going to participate in certification of the election. those notes were turned over to smith's team by the national archives. nbc news has not independently confirmed abc's reporting and a spokesman for pence declined to comment. trump is scheduled to go on trial in march where he has pleaded not guilty to four charges, including conspiracy to defraud the u.s. government. >> so jen palmieri, we should judge, i think, we should judge mike pence where he ended up, what he ended up doing, and that is, he stood in the gap. i will say that the memo that he wrote to himself about not participating because he didn't want to be hurtful to, quote, my friend, a quote friend who would call for his lynching or supported lynching to members of his own staff on january the 6th, it really does underline, does it not, the important role that the former vice president dan quayle played in this entire extraordinary chapter in american politics when mike pence called him up and the former vice president said to the current indiana vice president, mike, you have no choice, you have to certify the votes? it's extraordinary. history may have turned on that phone call. >> the -- you know, this shows you what humans do in moments of crisis really matters, and that unlike, unlike member of congress from tennessee who thought he had to go along with orange jesus because maybe this is the last time we're going to have to prop donald trump up, you know, quayle knew and convinced pence in the end that this is a moment where they needed to stand up as individuals to do what was right for the constitution and, you know, first of all i love pence thinking that referring to trump as my friend in his personal notes is going to throw us off of who he was talking about, but you can see him struggling, playing out in his own mind how he's going to deal with this. he probably didn't imagine it would get as bad as it did on january 6th, pence didn't, but, you know, if he -- i saw mike pence, i interviewed him a few weeks ago, maybe five weeks ago, talked to him privately afterwards, don't know the man well, he was pretty candid about how he was feeling about things, how he's feeling about the republican party. so i'm projecting ahead to march when this trial, the january 6th trial will start in d.c., i don't know, john, if mike pence is likely going to be a witness, but i think he seems to be feeling very aligned with the constitution and not so much in line with where republicans are in his party including trump. >> it's not clear that he will be. he hasn't really cooperated that much with the special counsel, although we did hear from chris christie predicting because mark meadows appears to be cooperates could spell trouble for donald trump. it seems to be a newly liberated mike pence. what has that liberation got him? he got crushed in the republican primary. liz cheney did the right thing, too, like mike pence eventually did, what happens to her? she got crushed in the republican primary. right things for history and the constitution, but not for their political present because of where the gop is, a gop that seems on track to be nominating donald trump again. we should note, joe and mika, we spent a lot of time the last week or two talking about the stakes of the upcoming election, donald trump is making them by the day. he posted in the overnight hours about msnbc, he, of course, called us msdnc and threatened again to have the government crack down on a network's broadcasting license saying our so-called government should come down hard on them and make them pay for their illegal political activity wishes in his estimation is being critical of donald trump. he writes, much more to come. watch. >> much more to come, watch. you know, jonathan, as we've been saying all along, perhaps donald trump's next term, if he is elected, perhaps it won't look like north korea or communist china or putin's russia, you know, leaders that he just adores, maybe it looks like orban's hungary, or erdogan's turkey. you look at what happened in orban's hungary, and you actually have an ill liberal leader who brags about hating liberal democracy and his country being liberal, and what you do, mika, you do what orban has done, is he's chased off his critics in the media and he's done it through regulation, through sham tax investigations, driven the people not only out of the business, but out of the country, and he's done the same thing with political opponents, the same thing with reporters, bugging their phones. it's, again, this is -- this is not like some wild speculation. >> oh, no, believe him. >> online. this is donald trump telling us exactly what he's going to do if he is elected next november. he is going to destroy american democracy. he said it. he promised if it gets in his way, he will terminate the constitution. he's talked about how he's going to take entire news channels off the air if they're not supportive of him. you can go down the list of things he's talking about. talking about the execution of generals that are not sufficiently loyal to him. that's what donald trump is promising to do. that's not even what he's likely to do beyond that. that's what he's already promising us he's going to do. >> still ahead on "morning joe," an exclusive look at what's driving the latino vote ahead of the 2024 presidential election. nbc's morgan radford will join us to break down brand new polling. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be 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id.4 for zero down, zero deposit, zero first month's payment, and zero due at signing. limited inventory available. that's a beautiful live picture of the white house. there's new polling out this morning showing the number one issue for latino voters heading into 2020 is inflation and the economy. like it is for so many voters. that's according to a survey of more than 3,000 latino voters taken this month. nbc news correspondent and nbc news now anchor morgan radford got an exclusive look at the early numbers and joins us now to walk through it. morgan, good morning. what are we seeing? >> hey there, willie. this is really interesting once you get down into the details. first, this poll makes it very clear just how important jobs and the economy are to latino voters. you can see here if you look at this graph, 54% of latinos ranked inflation and the rising cost of living as their top three issues. that outranks things like health care, crime, even immigration. when you ask sort of which party they believe would be best at actually addressing all of these top issues, more than a third of latinos say democrats would be best at handling those issues. interestingly, only 47% of voters approve of the job that president joe biden is doing currently in the white house, which is a 17% drop in approval if you look at that number from last year. then finally, this is really interesting, willie, if the election were held today, a majority of latino voters, 51% if you look at the graphic, leaning towards voting for president biden, probably vote for president biden, or are definitely voting for president biden. and that's an 18-point lead in voter preference over former president donald trump. what does all of this mean? we spoke to latinos in key swing states as well as the vice president of the latino vote initiative. take a listen. >> what are the issues you care about most? >> for us the biggest impact we see is the price of gas. its fluctuation is crazy and become a little bit unaffordable. >> how do you feel like president biden is handling the economy? >> well, i mean, i think we could see the inflation -- there's a lot of people that complain about interest rates. >> when the economy is not doing great and you support small businesses you help the local communities and i haven't seen that. >> if you had to list your top three issues what would they be? >> gun violence, climate change, and abortion rights. >> but the economy isn't sort of your number one issue? >> not me personally, i'm focused on the social issues. >> neither one of them deserve my vote. i almost feel like i should go some other route, maybe somebody else will come up. >> ultimately, hispanic voters are sending a wake-up call to both parties, to democrats, the good news is that hispanics see a lot of alignment in terms of their values with democratic positions, but here, it is important to know that democrats need to do a better job connecting with these voters on economic issues and that they cannot rest in their laurels. >> of course, it's always important to peel back the curtain in terms of how these polls are conducted, and this particular poll was commissioned by unedo u.s., the largest here in the country and conducted by bsp research focusing on democratic polling and founder partner, matt baredo who worked for the biden campaign in 2020. all of this matters because 34.5 million hispanic americans will be eligible to vote in the 2024 election, meaning latinos are still the fastest growing racial or ethnic voting block. >> so interesting. morgan, the national numbers are fascinating, but these races as we talk about every day will be decided in a few swing states. what do the numbers look like there? >> what's interesting they looked at seven key states that were expected to play in a big role and for the majority of latino voters in six of those states, biden would be the candidate they're most likely voting for and the only state where biden falls behind trump is in florida where just 39% of latinos say they plan to support the current president's re-election. if you look at comparison, our nbc news exit polls show biden got 53% of latino voters in 2020. it's interesting to look at the hypothetical matchup there. >> jen, let's look at the numbers from your old job be inside a presidential campaign, how would you be feeling if you were the biden campaign looking at this data what we see nationally among all groups, the economy is number one. >> right. >> and they're both kind of eh about both candidates? >> these numbers are better than i expected for biden. i did not expect the re-elect number to be as high as it is. it is not surprising that the economy is the largest and most important issue and immigration is further down. people misunderstand how latino voters feel about immigration, like most -- like all americans are mostly concerned about the economy, that's pretty far down on the list, and, you know, he has to prove to them that he can get things done. i do think that health care popping as an issue this week is really important. that's a very big issue with latino voters. protecting obamacare has been a way that democrats have helped to corral support in the hispanic community before. it's like a clear way to deal with costs, right, like protecting obamacare and protecting health care costs. they're going to have to -- the campaign has to continue to find issues like that where they can prove not just trump's words, but make your life better, we have done something to actually lower costs? >> if you're sitting in the west wing this morning work you be encouraged looking at these numbers thinking it's the end of november there's a year to go before next november when people vote, the economy is a given, it's an issue for everyone, latinos, anybody in this country, the economy is at issue, but the bonus, i would think f you're in the white house today, is as you said, i thought we would be more under water? >> right. trump's number being 33%, that's pretty low, so that is encouraging, particularly since you've seen the trump campaign put so much effort in to winning over hispanic voters. that piece of it is encouraging. leaders have low approval ratings absolutely everywhere. if you were in a democracy, you have -- biden's approval rating is much higher than macron's in france and sunak in the uk. the chancellor in germany. it is a difficult time to be a leader, but you're like, okay, this is a road map and we know what we need to address and build on. where we have credibility. the fact that these voters think that democrats are better to deal with inflation, that is, you know, 35%, it's not a majority, but still, there's really good building blocks there. >> morgan, the outlier, florida, not really a surprise, right? a state that is growing more red in recent cycles and the message of linking democrats to socialism resonates with the latino population that lives there? >> when looking at cubans and venezuelans. if you look at the hypothetical matchup, biden beats trump by 18 points, but if ron desantis were to be on the ballot tomorrow he loses by about 28 points. the delta is actually pretty different there. but i think kind of to your point earlier, there's a misunderstanding about who latino voters are. there's an assumption this close tie with cathlism would make them not want to protect certain abortion rights. if you look at polling there, 70% want to protect abortion right. look at things like climate change, that ranked number 12 on this list and only 6% of latinos are climate change deniers, compared to 27% of the general population when you look at research. there's smaller nuggets in there when you talk about messaging and speaking to this particular population. >> it's interesting and critical to what's going to happen a year from now. morgan radford, bringing us great information. thanks so much. coming up next, some alarming new reporting on the algorithm used by instagram, and its impact on children. "wall street journal" technology reporter jeff horowitz joins us from that and revolutions from his book on facebook's parent company meta. "morning joe" is coming right back. orning joe" is coming righ back when my doctor gave me breztri for my copd things changed for me. breztri gave me better breathing, symptom improvement, and reduced flare-ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more than prescribed. breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. ask your doctor about breztri. 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[ applause ] >> mrs. carter is remembered by many for her humanitarian work and as a mental health advocate, making history. her advocacy transformed the role of the first lady. she was incredibly impactful and beautiful. she was 96 years old. to other news now, convicted murderer alex murdaugh was in the courtroom again yesterday in south carolina where he was sentenced to 27 years for stealing millions from his clients. nbc news correspondent lizz kreutz has the latest. >> you lied, you cheated, you stole, you betrayed me. >> reporter: this morning, former prominent south carolina lawyer and convicted murderer alex murdaugh back in court, confronted by distraught victims of his state financial crimes. >> i've been waiting on this day to look in your eyes. what kind of animal are you? >> reporter: among the victims, the family of murdaugh's former housekeeper who died after falling at the mur dau home. prosecutors say murdaugh directed millions of dollars from her life insurance claim to an account he used, while the family received nothing. >> i just don't understand. did you not have a soul? >> reporter: murdaugh, who is accused of swindling millions from his clients for over a decade, sat quietly listening before addressing the victims himself. >> i am so sorry, so sorry, for the things that i did. >> reporter: the judge then sentencing murdaugh to 27 years in prison, as part of a deal that required murdaugh plead guilty to 22 state financial crimes. >> guilty verdict. >> reporter: in march, murdaugh was convicted of murdering his wife and son and is currently serving two life sentences and also pled guilty to almost two dozen federal financial crimes which requires he pay nearly $9 million in restitution. one of murdaugh's victims is pamela pinkney who told craig on "dateline" murdaugh defrauded her twice after defending her after a car crash. >> reporter: pinkney estimates plur dao and his alleged co-conspirators pocketed a million dollars owed to her family. in court on tuesday she told murdaugh she forgives him. >> you took us for granted, but all i want to say to you is i forgive you from the heart. >> reporter: still, murdaugh resolute, he did not kill his wife and son. >> you are dead wrong about one thing and i would never hurt maggie and i would never hurt paul. >> nbc's liz kreutz with that report. live reporting from tel aviv for the latest in the israel-hamas war as more hostages are set to be released from captivity. plus, democratic members of the oversight committee, congressman dan goldman and jared moskowitz will be our guests and we'll talk about, among other things, hunter biden, who has a new legal plan, as he takes on his adversaries, betsy woodruff swan and eugene daniels will join us with their new reporting on how hunter's counteroffensive will play out in courtrooms just as president biden ramps up his re-election campaign. 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>> yes. the harm not so much, but the conditions that lead to the harm, absolutely. right. the whole goal here of the product is to personalize. this is the core of their system, and the idea is ta whatever idea results in greater engagement they're going to push hard. if that is something that is going to exacerbate vulnerabilities that a person has about their own say self-image, that's going to be an issue. if that is something that is illegal or really unfortunate, such as conspiracy theories or things that treat children as sexual objects, the algorithm is going to very happily do that, right. this is a functionally amoral but very efficient system. the only question is what restrictions get put on it. >> jeff, i guess the question is, you know, meta would say our algorithm pushes people to things they're telling us they like, you know, and that maybe ends up in bad place for them personally, but the statement from meta we should read here, we have every incentive to help ensure people using our services have a positive experience. it's what advertisers want and what keeps people coming back to our apps. it says this book foregoes nuance, ignores inconvenient facts and the result is a one-sided and misleading portrait of meta and the work we do. that's a statement from meta. i will let you respond to that first, but also, just the idea that they're just driving people where they say they want to go? >> yeah. that statement, that's a new one, but i -- look, i mean, meta's long-standing position has been that bad things happen off the internet and they happen on the internet, too, and they're going to happen on meta's platforms. to some degree that's absolutely true, right, that there will be issues that are, you know, just people are sometimes bad and , therefore, sometimes bad on facebook and instagram. the thing the company has long tried to avoid is how the decisions it makes about its products shape the way that human beings act when they're using its services. so, you know, the question of can you say send out 400,000 s to qanon, and it's a content quality, and so i think what the companies could have tried to do is sort of have this be a debate about humanity, when, in fact, it's a debate and it should be a discussion about product design and what the product volumes, and having gone through the company's internal records is the company really does anything that would damage growth, like even by as little as say .1% is just off the table. so what happens is they built this system that basically will do whatever is best for the company's own numbers, but doesn't leave much room for anybody other than the most remedial safety work. >> let's dive into some of the revelations in your book, and facebook/meta, you talk about how they designed a civil cream and promotes social media as a force for good, but tell us what happened instead? >> there were a couple years when the company did invest to try to figure out why the company was -- why qanon and pizza gate were doing so fantastically well, and why the radical and fire brand discord on both sides was taking off and how it was being manipulated, and that did demonstrate what the platform was optimizing for, and it's not what anybody would want to see, and to quote an extremely high-level -- the company's current chief security officer, some of the algorithms were designed for cat videos and not determining to rise in civil discourse. they have functionally acknowledged that at this point, and cat videos are treated differently than political news, but that said, you know, they kind of just never accepted this stuff. i think obviously it goes all the way to the top in terms of leadership. one thing in the book is that mark zuckerberg told the team to stand down after the -- ahead of the 2020 election, told them not to do anymore work tracking the election delit maization. >> my question is a simple one. is facebook a clear and present danger to us? >> i think i would say that we're a couple decades in to the world of social media, and it seems like right now there is not a tremendous amount of work done to make these products something that would be societybly useful. i think that's a pretty dangerous place right now. the company -- it generally does not take responsibility for bad outcomes from its products, and, you know, basically just says that's humanity, we do the best we can. it has, in fact, in recent years been cutting staff related to safety work, whether that is going to be trying to safeguard elections, or whether that is going to be things related to teen mental health, or going after network predators on the platform. the company likes to build things and move on, and the move fast and break ethos is still very real, and while they like designing new products and building thing that grow and are popular, they don't like governing them. >> as we look at what facebook, instagram and meta has done in reaction to your reporting, "the wall street journal," outstanding reporting, and the whistle blower reporting, and we learned from the whistleblower testimony, it is dangerous for teenage girls. >> well, in the state attorney lawsuit against meta -- i was shocked, myself, to see how many members of the leadership team seemed to acknowledge that the product was, in fact, harmful in a number of different ways, and it was not well designed for young teenagers, and it was a bad instagram, for example, and you have the former head of policy saying this was simply not built in a way that was appropriate for young teens. you have an acknowledgment that they touch on the body image type of concern, and they did seem to internally acknowledge it, and i suppose in a certain way that was a good thing. they have not really fundamentally dealt with design issues. i think they try to do everything has a question, oh, we should maybe do more moderation here and there, as opposed to we built something that might not be safe, and even though that's what the safety team and data and scientists have been telling them for years. >> "the wall street journal"'s jeff horwitz. thank you for being here today. congrats on the book. >> thank you. coming up, talks are under way right now to extend the truce between israel and hamas. we will have a live report from tel aviv when we come right back. ome right back dear moms and dads, what you have achieved here today is going to help us and our futures. it is why we're coming up on stage to collect your diplomas. mom, love you always. vo: when you graduate, they graduate. visit finishyourdiploma.org to find free and supportive adult education centers near you. you're probably not easily persuaded to switch mobile providers for your business. but what if we told you it's possible that comcast business mobile can save you up to 75% a year on your wireless bill versus the big three carriers? it's true. plus when you buy your first line of mobile, you get a second line free. there are no term contracts or line activation fees. and you can bring your own device. oh, and all on the most reliable 5g mobile network nationwide. wireless that works for you. it's not just possible, it's happening. and -- >> great, hunter is in. >> he wants to go and speak before the american people. >> right. >> wants to clear his name. >> he's more than invited. >> this more comer guy -- >> he is trying to get hunter. >> he wants him because he keeps making a fool of himself, and he says, we ain't really got nothing, a squirrel fryer and -- >> what was that? >> a squirrel fryer and a hound dog. >> willie, did you hear about the new liz cheney book that came out? >> yes. >> wait. >> there's a lot there. here's my -- >> quit jumping around, joe. >> here's my favorite line from it, though. kevin mccarthy, justifying his trip to mar-a-lago by saying three words that nobody has ever said about donald trump. he's not eating. now, all i can say is this -- >> no. >> he did not say that. >> if kevin mccarthy's job was to go to mar-a-lago to get donald eating again, well, he did a hellofa job. he's not eating -- i don't believe it, willie. what say you this early in the morning? >> nothing more heartbreaking than hearing that kevin mccarthy had to rush to donald trump's bedside because, quote, he's not eating after the results of the election, and it's like an ailing mother or father in their final days, she's not eating, we should surround her and be at her bedside, talking about the former president of the united states is not eating, and that's why days after january 6th, kevin mccarthy rushed to trump's bedside. >> the last vision he saw was of an ailing donald lying in that bed with an empty bucket of kfc over his head. and -- >> no, come on. he's not eating? you really want to go down to mar-a-lago that bad? come on, kevin. make a better excuse than that, right? >> i can't. all right -- >> but, anyway, on this comer thing, as you were asking me, willie, i heard you ask me about the comer thing, he says, come by our committee, so hunter says, okay, i will come to your committee, and he says, all right, we better do this in private now. now they don't want the american people to see what hunter biden has to say. they have been spraying for bs about this guy -- two years about this guy, and if he was innocent he would come down to our committee, and now he's coming and now they are, like, no, no, we don't want the public to see this, and we will hide it behind closed doors. how pathetic. >> yeah, hunter biden came down there, but he said i won't come in private and let you cherry-pick what i said, and then go on fox news afterwards and say thing i didn't say, and let's put it out in the public so they can decide for themselves, and they are saying i am not so sure we want that to happen, because the whole point of this is to misinterpret that information. >> and the democrat from maryland, jamie raskin said, let me get this straight. after wailing and moaning for ten months about hunter biden and eluding to some vast unproven family conspiracy, they reject his offer, and what a frank confession they are simply not interested in the facts and have no confidence in their own case or their ability to pursue it. and this is from the guy that said there's an awful lot of smoke here, but no fire yet, and apparently looking for the fire. >> jonathan lemire, he's not the only one that said that. and the editorial page said, all smoke, no fire, and he should keep looking to see if he could find fire, but right now it's all smoke and no fire, and that was months ago. comer, once again, making a fool of himself. he can't invent evidence. he can't invent evidence that is not there. again, the ultimate humiliation. all we hear is hunter biden, and oh, hunter biden is afraid to talk. hunter biden says, okay, that's cool, i am coming, and now it's comer and his gang that are running for the hills. and their coon hats and holding a shotgun in their hands -- >> yeah, everything they have done, they have done poorly. everything they have done, it has led to more infighting among the republicans, and hunter biden faces charges separate to what the republicans are investigating. it has been one colossal embarrassment after another. and hunter biden says yeah, i will come, come in public, but i will not let you shape my words but i want everybody to hear my account by myself, and then the other question is why is comer doing an about face? they tried to humiliate hillary clinton in the hearing about benghazi, and there are some republicans that are fearful, and they made hunter biden such a bogeyman, and they are afraid he could testify credibly and further tarnish their efforts. >> and they are going to talk more about this, but first we will turn to the prospect of more hostages being freed today from the gaza strip. it comes after 10 israelis and two thai nationals were brought back into israel territory yesterday. in turn israel released 30 palestinian prisoners, and the exchange with hamas happened after both parties agreed on monday to extend the humanitarian pause for an additional two days. the truce is set to expire tomorrow. the terrorists group freed 81 people since the temporary cease-fire began on friday, while israel released 180 palestinian prisoners, it's about 240 people were taken captive during the october 7th terrorists attack in israel. the white house says eight or nine americans are still being held hostage. meanwhile, cia director, bill burns, is now in qatar discussing the agreement, and we go to richard engel with more on all of this. >> reporter: we are expecting to see more hostages released today, because it's the last full day of the truce after it was extended for two days. the big question is what will happen after midnight tonight? israel says unless hamas continues to hand over hostages, it will resume its military campaign. there are two groups in particular that want to see this cease-fire extended badly. they are the families of the hostages that want to buy more time, because so far this truce has been working and it has been delicate, but generally working with each day hamas releasing around 10 to 12 prisoners, sometimes a few more. and in exchange israel releasing about 30 or 30 plus palestinian prisoners. the people of gaza desperately want this to be extended because during this last six days, they have been able to get food aid and go to their houses and be in contact with their people, and much of gaza is destroyed, and there's little food and little drinking water, but it's better than being under constant assault. the hostages hope with each day there's the chance that their loved ones could be included on the precious freedom list. for israel it's a simple matter. israel says it will extend the truce as long as hamas keeps releasing every day around ten hostages, at least ten hostages, but hamas is running out of women and children, so now the negotiations are focused on convincing hamas to start releasing male prisoners, and hamas has quite a few male prisoners, and there are other women and children in gaza held by other groups. it's not hopeless. and hamas could be convinced to release some of the male hostages, some of the elderly ones, and there are deep concerns from the hostage family unless there's some sort of break through by the end of the day today, the bombing could resume again. >> so it's objectively good news to have hostages coming home, particularly the senior citizens and children coming home, but is there concern that hamas is extending this time to buy hamas more time to stop the assault there. how is israel looking at the balance of the two things? the war on the one hand and the rescuing of the hostages on the other? >> israel has several competing objectives here. israel does want the hostages to be released, and the israeli government is under pressure, and netanyahu is deeply unpopular because of the october 7th attack that happened in the first place, and because the hostages are still there. as long as hostages are coming out, israel does have an incentive to pause its operations, and israel is preparing for a long-term military campaign. israel says its goal is regime change in gaza. that could take years. might never succeed, but it's not a short-term objective. as long as the hostages are still coming out, it seems that israel is quite happy -- not happy but quite willing to allow the process to continue. the ball at this stage is really in hamas' court. can it gather additional women and children from other groups inside gaza, and is it willing to make the decision to start releasing men, older men or the most sensitive group for hamas, military age men and women who it considers to be soldiers? >> richard, thank you so much. let's bring in retired four-star navy admiral, james travitis. how are you looking at this, and measuring the cease-fire up against beating hamas? >> this is an incredibly difficult military problem to begin with, to take down this city of 1.2 million in the north, and gain control of it and destroy the tunnel complex, and now let's add a degree of difficulty, which includes hostages. that has to be the top of the priority list. it will continue to be. i suspect we will see the cease-fire move along with some additional releases, but make no mistake about it, as i talk to my sources, both in israel, and here in the united states, the israelis are going to get back to business when the hostage situation goes stagnant, and at that point they will search for the hostages, and they will try and find them and rescue them, but alongside that, willie, they will unleash additional military force. final thought here. i believe that the biden administration is working very hard to get the israelis to dial down the legality as it pertains to israel, and it will help them win the information war, which they are losing right now. >> admiral, based on your vast experience through the decades, based upon the deep context you have with the israeli defense forces, give us -- give us an idea of what the costs are and the tradeoff? we certainly understand the hostages are the first priority. these extraordinary scenes we are seeing, and such relief with every hostage being released. we can hold that truth right here in our minds, but over here how much -- how much does israel's military situation degrade every day the cease-fire goes on, and how strengthened in hamas by each day that israel delays in rooting out this terror network? >> you put your finger on it, joe. and a cease-fire, a pause, however you want to categorize it, always favors the weaker side, and militarily, of course, that's hamas. what is happening in real time in those tunnels under gaza, 300 miles of tunnels, hamas is rearming and resupplying, and building in booby traps, and shielding those hostages, and they are strengthening the position. if you go to the israeli pentagon today, they are challenged deeply and thinking through their responses, joe. after the cease-fire ends, what does the military response look like? i think it will not be the kind of heavy bombing that you have been seeing. i think it will be more helicopters, less big bombs. it will be more special forces, less tanks crunching through neighborhoods. you are going to see a shift in how the israeli military approached both to the north, and then eventually they will go to the south. they are not going to leave it to where it could be a replay at the end of the day. >> and the fact that you say it will be more targeted, it will not only be good for the civilians, but it is going to be good for israel strategically, diplomatically, and it will allow them to continue without losing. i certainly -- i know you have, too, but i have been hearing from across the middle east a lot of very nervous arab countries that want to be israel's ally saying we will not be able to form the strategic alliances. i just want to put this in its starkest terms, and i can ask you this as a military man, and let's be really blunt about this. we are seeing these celebrations -- >> reunions -- >> reunions, and they are extraordinary, and this needs to be done. this needs to be done. >> yep. >> but i don't think anybody should make any mistake of it, that giving hamas this time is going to likely lead to the deaths of more israeli soldiers down the road. more israeli soldiers are going to die either because they are setting up land mines, or they are positioning in a way they will be able to kill more israeli soldiers, and there's a tradeoff and we need to understand that, right? >> absolutely. this is a big reason, frankly, that this administration's secret weapon, ambassador bill burns, is out on foot patrol through the region, and he's making those points quietly behind closed doors. we think of him correctly as a former ambassador to russia, deputy secretary of state, and now director of the cia. what did he do before all that? he's a fluent arab speaker, and he spent most of his career in the arab world. he will do everything he can behind closed doors in his role as director of the cia to move this in a positive direction. joe, that holds the balance, as you point out correctly, between israeli needs for their security and the humanitarian crisis unfolding. george santos may soon be kicked out of congress. we will talk with one congressman about that straight ahead on "morning joe." 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[dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ the subway series? it's the perfect menu lineup. just give us a number, we got the rest. number three? the monster. six? the boss. fifteen? titan turkey. number one? the philly. oh, yeah, you probably don't want that one. look, i'm not in charge of naming the subs. global tensions will likely be on full display today with the u.n. security council expect ld to discuss calls for a cease-fire in the middle east, and israel opposed that, while other countries including china ramped up calls recently to a total end to the fighting. let's bring in janis mackey frayer live from beijing. what is at stake for china? >> reporter: with this temporary truce in gaza entering another day, there's a diplomatic push at the u.n. security council to have the pause become a fuller cease-fire. leading the debate is china, which holds the presidency at the security council for one more day at a time when beijing has tried to position itself as a global player. it's not clear to the extent china wants to weigh into the instability there, and traditionally it backed the palestinians, and it doesn't mean that israel sees china as an impartial player. quite the contrary. she has been openly critical of china for not condemning hamas' october 7th attacks on israel, and she says china needs to be more balanced. here's more of what she had to say. >> the thought that it would have been appropriate for china as security council, a permanent member, to say something in the line that they condemn this terrorists organization, hamas. this is something that we didn't hear. also, china is pushing very hard now for a cease-fire. a cease-fire is not what we need. >> do you feel like china is taking sides? >> china has always taken sides. since china has not expressed any, let's say, pro israel statements in the last couple of weeks apart from a fraction of statements here and there, we don't expect -- and china being the president of the united nation's security council this month, right, we don't expect major statements in favor of israel. >> reporter: china has been pushing for stability and is calling for a cease-fire, and it's calling for a two-state solution. all very broad statements over the past several weeks that lack any specifics or solid solutions. and this is a last push after a diplomatic blitz by china in the gaza conflict in the past several weeks, and it has been heavy on calls for humanitarian aid and heavy on criticism of the united states as what china sees as meddling in the middle east given its backing for israel. at the end of the day, most observers are not convinced china will make much difference on the ground, and there's a sense they are trying to be opportunistic in going for international status with little cost, and it's much like their position on the war in ukraine. >> janice, thank you so much. president biden in san francisco tried to prevail upon president xi to step in a little bit not just hear in the israel-hamas issue, but in the ukraine and russia war. >> yeah, china has not gone so far as to aid russia with weapons, but he has not told putin to knock it off, either. he has not been deemed that helpful. and to the frustration of the u.s., even though they are grateful their relations with beijing has warmed somewhat after the summit. and they are putting conditions on the aid to israel, and president biden over the weekend seemed open to it, and entertained the thought and then the administration walked that black, and there's pressure from the left that biden should do that, and what do you think about it, the importance of the aid to finally get there? >> i believe the policy we pursued thus far has been about right, which is to be extremely supportive of israel at this point. we are now approaching a place where we can actually help israel by quietly, behind closed doors, starting to move towards that kind of condition al tea. again, i suspect that's happening behind closed doors, and that's a good place for it. probably too soon at this stage to simply say, hey, we are going to lock down aid to israel until you do a, b and c. we are not there but moving in that direction. and final thought, and back to china for one second. what xi is doing here in terms of the security council and everything else, it's not just altruism, and it's not just big power politics, but it's also economics. china's economy is in the dullgrums. he wants to put a cap on this thing. i think you will see the chinese lean in in a positive way over time. >> admiral, that leads to the last question i was going to ask you, because we are talking about the dangers economically about the wider war in the middle east, and we are seeing something in eastern europe, and is it is china's interest, and the united states' interest to come together and bring an interest in ending to the ukraine and russia war, and this is something people are not supposed to say, because people will say you are betraying the ukrainians. maybe the spring offensive will work, and we are very skeptical of that, and this went up the ranks, and they called it back in february and they were right. these lines are not going to move much more. at some point there's diminishing returns, and do we try and enlist china? would you recommend that? or do we start moving towards a negotiated settlement here that locks in lines that ukrainians may not like, and locks in security assurances for ukraine that putin will hate? >> as i look at it, joe, i am continually reminded of the korean war, and we are approaching the 38th parallel, that frozen line, and it's about to freeze as the winter comes. when both sides hits that point, as you say, of diminishing returns, and that's the moment when a negotiation does start to make sense, and the idea of the u.s. and china working together to do it, i think, is not impossible. better would be it comes under the premature united nations, but getting to china to focus on this, we all ought to be looking for a solution in ukraine and not a continuation of what we got. coming up, hunter biden says he's ready to testify in public on capitol hill. we will speak with two members of the house oversight committee about that development when "morning joe" comes right back. in the u.s. we see millions of cyber threats each year. that rate is increasing as more and more businesses move to the cloud. - so, the question is... - cyber attack! as cyber criminals expand their toolkit, we must expand as well. we need to rethink... next level moments, need the next level network. [speaker continues in the background] the network with 24/7 built-in security. chip? at&t business. the subway series is getting an upgrade. the new #33. the teriyaki blitz. with double cheese and teriyaki-marinated meat. it's like a perfect steak spiral in the double cheese coverage. if you say so, peyton. who knew the subway series could get even better? hi, my name is damion clark. if you have both medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all of these plans include a healthy options allowance, a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month. and whatever you don't spend, carries over from each month. other benefits on these plans include free rides to and from your medical appointments. and our large networks of doctors, hospitals and pharmacies. so, call the number on your screen now and ask about a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. humana. a more human way to healthcare. my late father-in-law lit up a room, but his vision dimmed with age. he had amd. i didn't know it then, but it can progress to ga, an advanced form of the disease. his struggle with vision loss from amd made me want to help you see warning signs of ga. like straight lines that seem wavy, blurry, or missing visual spots that make it hard to see faces like this one, or trouble with low light that makes driving at night a real challenge. if you've been diagnosed with amd and notice vision changes, don't wait. ga is irreversible. it's important to catch it early. talk to your eye doctor about ga and learn more at gawontwait.com hunter biden may be heading to congress. hunter said he's willing to testify before the house oversight committee, but only if it's televised and wants to do it in public, preferably nude in a hot tub and smoking an unfiltered cigarette with a hooker, and he wants to testify in the open, but republicans don't want it to tv, and they are like, if we don't do this behind closed doors, how can we make stuff up? >> that's not a joke. >> that's it. >> they are trying to make things up, and then blaming the media for not reporting the things they have made up. again, everybody said they wanted this in the public. everybody asked why won't hunter testify, and he wants to testify publicly because i think he is tired of all of the lies, and he's tired of all of the insinuations and now he wants to testify publicly again. let's underline the fact that the republicans that have been asking for this for months, for years, they finally got it. >> yeah. >> and they don't want it. you know why? because the dog never knows what to do when it finally catches the car, and then in this case, you know, they just don't have the facts on their side. they are going to lose. >> all the difficulties that jimmy kimmel was pointing to in hunter's life, mental health problems and addictions, he has written about in his book, so they can read that as well. let's bring in mike barnicle, and jennifer palmieri, she's co-host of the msnbc podcast "how to win 2024 with claire," and john heilman is with us. >> i quoted lyrics before on this show, but never has the opening line of send in the clowns been so appropriate when these republicans begging for hunter biden's testimony get it, and now they say they don't want it publicly. isn't it rich? what clowns. >> well, jimmy kimmel nailed it. you know, if he testifies in public, they can't make it up behind closed doors. hunter biden goes to the congress and responds to the committee and says i will testify in public, and can you put me under oath and ask me anything you want, ask me anything, and i will reply in public in front of tv cameras. let's go. let's get it done. what happens, predictably, because there are a bunch of frauds on the committee, no, no, we can't do that, we have to close the door so we can make things up when we leave the committee room and speak to fox news. >> that's their version. >> you know, it's like colonel jesup or whatever in "a few good men," they can't handle the truth. that's their problem. it goes against the narrative that they have established and tried to establish every day for months and months and months. congressman comer, especially. some of the things he says on tv are fraudulent. he makes it up, and he can't make it up if it's in public and we all watch it. >> hunter biden called their bluff, and yeah, he said i will come and testify but now they back pedalled. >> they are trying to find the head of the biden crime family, and the congressman says we have a lot of smoke -- >> which they create in the back room. >> yeah, but no fire. >> this is what happens when maga comes into -- runs into reality. you see it in courtrooms where grand juries hand down indictments, and then the 11 best hours of the presidential campaign, and she is like, what else do you have? that's what they are scared of. it's been going on for almost ten years from the benghazi hearings to the, you know, special counsel that trump appointed that looked at emails for five years at the justice department, to what comer is trying to concoct in the hearing rooms, and they are trying to manufacture falsehoods that they think will help them politically and they can't ever get it over the line. >> and there's an element of this which is a high wire act with hunter biden, right. hunter biden is going on the offense, and so the white house is going, oh, we would rather not have that, okay, the president loves his son but how about not going on offense and just staying quiet, so to call the bluff, it's a dramatic gesture. could you imagine a better -- it's not just that goinging in and performing well, that would be a huge triumph, but even better the way the committee is backing away here, the committee has no clothes, the emperor has no clothes. and the white house is like, maybe hunter biden and counsel knows what they are doing. >> yeah, when you are taking action like they did, and i think hunter testifying, you know, most of the things, like we heard everything about it before, and he's sitting at the witness table and republican members of congress giving him a hard time about difficult things in his life, that will not go over well. >> everything in the book, and it's hard to imagine anything more horrifying than what he already admitted to in the book. >> the thing the committee should be most afraid of is hunter has done damage to himself, and the self inflicted damage hunter has done to himself is awful, and he will cop to it and talk about it. the damage he has done to himself, i'm sure, is quite familiar to a whole host of families in this country. >> of course. >> and it's a moment when republicans have talked themselves into a corner and promised for so long to go after hunter biden and the so-called biden crime family, and this they want to thwart off challenges, politically challenged, and they will come up with excuses why this did not work, but they will have to try. >> and talking about the star witness, joe, and i think it's still on the lamb, a middle eastern arms dealer or something like that, and that was the star witness that just vanished, and they are still looking for him. >> yeah, they tried to make a scandal out of that, and a couple days later we find out the reason he has vanished, he's an international fugitive, and illegal arms dealer, and he sold iranian oil, smuggled it illegally to the communist chinese, and this is the star witness. this is the republican party's star witness. i do want to underline, though, and for republicans who have ears to hear, hear, because this is what republicans, mika, have overlooked from the start of this hunter biden hunt that they are on, to try and find something to attack him. mike barnicle just said every family -- >> yeah. >> -- or most families have situations, maybe not just like hunter biden, but situations where they don't want their children attacked publicly, and they say if you want joe biden, go after joe biden but leave the kids alone, and for the most part that's the case. they don't understand that in that first debate when donald trump attacked hunter biden, attacked joe biden's son, they don't understand how much that backfired. there were conservative, hard-core right wing pro trump conservatives whose articles i read and columns i read after that that were outraged that donald trump went after another man's child. >> voters know joe biden, and that's the point here, every family has somebody that has struggled and suffered as hunter has and has done things against their core values, and another thing voters are, many of them, parents. when you go after joe biden's son, as you point out, and the reason it was a turnoff, not only was it his son, but his only remaining son. how sick can you be? at this point with people like marjorie taylor greene putting up pictures of hunter biden that she scraped off the internet or whatever at his worst moments, what can they say when he says, ask me anything, you fools. and the other thing is going after hunter biden is going after joe biden's remaining son. remember, it's not joe biden. as approached to trump who has four indictments against him, and $250 million civil suits and rape allegations. >> the bottom line here is, what republicans need to understand is, this backfires against them. it backfired against donald trump. >> because it's cruel. >> it's backfiring against them. they can keep doing it if they want to, if they want to help joe biden, if they want to make joe biden more of a sympathetic figure, they can keep doing it but it doesn't work. that's the bottom line. >> we will be following this. we want to get more of the new revelations from liz cheney's book. >> can i ask john heilman about that? what do you make of poor kevin mccarthy having to go down to an ling donald trump who, he said, i have to go down there, liz. trump's not eating? what do you make of those revelations, that donald trump was in bed, depressed and not eating so his kevin had to go down with a bucket of kentucky fried chicken at mar-a-lago? what the hell, kevin? they are really worried, trump's not eating, said nobody ever. >> the kentucky fried chicken they got on site. the starbursts, you take the candy down there, and -- look, it's hilarious and stupid, and obviously mccarthy was looking for a reason to go to to mar-a-lago. he says a ridiculous thing. liz cheney is going to make hay out of the fact he said it. it's ludicrous, the idea of trump not eating, that is a reason to go is ridiculous. if it were true, if true, your notion is, you're kevin mccarthy, you've been on the house floor in the hours after january 6th and stood up and said, the president is responsible for insurrection against the american government, an attempted coup. he really said it. and a few days later, he's on his way to mar-a-lago and his justification for it is the president is not eating. at face value, it's the most -- you know, pinochet, he is feeling a little ill. the man is losing weight dramatically. i think we'll go talk to pol pot. it's an absurd thing on face value to say. and it just shows how transparent it was. mccarthy went for the reason he went. he thought, trump is powerful again and i have to pay to him. and that was the trajectory of the republican party post-january 6th. our next guest has advice for leaders embroiled in social or political controversies. stop commenting on the news. >> you mean, educate people instead of running an editorial page? >> jonathan jade is here with what he calls a simple answer. that answer is straight ahead on "morning joe." thursday night football on prime. it's on. thursday night football is on, as the seattle seahawks take on the dallas cowboys. what causes a curve down there? is it peyronie's disease? will it get worse? how common is it? who can i talk to? can this be treated? stop typing. start talking to a specialized urologist. because it could be peyronie's disease, or pd. it's a medical condition where there is a curve in the erection, caused by a formation of scar tissue. and an estimated 1 in 10 men may have it. but pd can be treated even without surgery. say goodbye to searching online. find a specialized urologist who can diagnose pd and build a treatment plan with you. visit makeapdplan.com today. coming up, more hostages could soon be released after israel extended its cease-fire with hamas. more from tel aviv, as the temporary truce enters a sixth day. "morning joe" is back in a moment. why didn't we do this last year? before you were preventing migraine with qulipta®? and look at me now. you'll never truly forget migraine, but zero-migraine days are possible. don't take if allergic to qulipta®. most common side effects are nausea, constipation, and sleepiness. qulipta®. the forget-you-get migraine medicine™. ♪♪ a beautiful shot of los angeles, as the sun has yet to come up because it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 on the east. we'll get to the top story right now. hamas is expected to release more hostages later today, as the temporary truce is set to expire. but negotiations are currently under way to extend the pause in fighting, once again. a senior arab diplomat involved in the talks tells nbc news the expectation is that the truce will continue for at least two more days. as of now, no official decision has been made. live from tel aviv, raf sanche. >> reporter: we're eight hours to the end of the cease-fire. a race is on to get an extension. both sides are expressed an openness to it. israel and hamas. and antony blinken speaking from brussels today, saying the united states is looking to see the cease-fire extended and more time to get hostages out. we're expecting in the next couple of hours to see another ten israeli women and children released from gaza. we're also expecting to see some male dual israeli/hamas nationals. they are ready to release these men as a jester of goodwill to vladimir putin. the only israeli men released from gaza are those holding russian passports. inside of gaza, the humanitarian situation remains dire. the six days of cease-fire have offered respite from the bombing going on since the october 7th terror attack. 15,000 people killed inside of gaza, according to the hamas-run health ministry. that's 1 person in every 130 killed. the world health organization is warning that we could be moving to a situation that more people dying from disease than killed by israeli bombing. that's one of the reasons that people are so eager to see this deal extended to get more humanitarian aid into gaza. last night, we saw ten israeli hostages released, along with two workers from thailand. those hostages, nine women, one young teenage girl. most of them elderly. and, guys, most of them leaving a family member behind in gaza. a male relative, husbands or a brother. as the hostages are coming out, the families are split up. >> these hostages have been through so much. and there's an agonizing twist of telling a child they lost a parent or hearing what they witnessed. are you getting any sense of what the hostages have been through? >> reporter: they were describing the conditions they were held in gaza. spoke to the family of the 9-year-old released on friday, along with his mother and grandmother. they tell us they were held mainly by one guard. they were kept sometimes in an apartment. sometimes in tunnels. but usually, it was one guard looking after them. they told us he did a throat cutting gesture. hard to listen to. they say, they were not physically abused. food was short at times. they had no idea what was going on in the world. they had no the scale of the terror attack. they had no idea they were 3 of 240 hostages. they didn't realize there was a global campaign to bring them back. >> let's take the other side of this. what has the pause of the fighting brought to the civilians there in gaza? can you give us an amount of aid that's gone through. and if there's a change of day-to-day conditions for the fter israel began its bombardment? >> this is a brief respite, jonathan. we've seen enormous lines at gas stations. people with gerry cans to get a few precious drops of fuel. lines for bread. this cease-fire is short-term. they are desperate for an end to the fighting. if you are a parent in gaza, you're unable to make decisions about how to keep your kid safe for the last seven weeks. should we go south or to the middle. for all of the israeli instructions to flee to the southern ends, there's bombing in the south. we've seen a lot of civilians killed in the last couple of weeks. one of the rituals of the last couple days is people going back to see if their homes are standing. our team in gaza spoke to newlyweds that got married in late august. they were married just over a month. their house had been flattened. and the only thing that survived was a box of candy from their wedding. a reminder of happier, safer times. >> too many stories like that. raf sanchez, live from tel aviv. joining us now, is jared moscowitz of florida. you're a strong supporter of israel. you put on legislation on the floor. do you agree that israel has a right to exist? talk to us about what we see right now in israel, your experience, talking to the leadership. the pauses that are allowing some of the hostages to be released. too many still there. is this the way forward to extend the pauses to get as many people back as possible? >> yeah. thanks for the question. that's right. president biden has shown how this works. they need the ability to eliminate hamas for israelis and palestinians. it's clear that hamas did not take israelis hostage but holding palestinians hostage, using them as human shields. they want more palestinians to die so they can feed that over social media. i think the fact that we're prioritizing the hostages, get ing them home, seeing reunifications, is the path forward. but make no mistake. at some point in time, we have to run out of hostages or it's clear hamas doesn't know where they are. gaza cannot continue with hamas in control. >> as you hear about this problem. the president saying we will not stop until all of the hostages have been returned to israel. has issued warnings and saying to israel, be careful how you prosecute the war. and he said, don't give hamas what it wants. scenes of civilians being killed by israeli bombs. do you share the concerns about the way israel is prosecuting the war? >> i agree that israel has lost the information war. some of that has not with not how they are prosecuting the war. hamas has built a propaganda machine. you look at the algorithms with china and russia. it's clear that israel's enemies and the united states' enemies are feetfeeding this to our kid. you see people ripping down posters of the hostages. you hear them say these people are not real. right? the information they've been fed is the hostage thing is false. the president is giving israel good advice. whatever the reason it is, these are the terms. he's trying to tell israel to be smarter and not give hamas those things. hamas is going to manufacture them anyway. we saw people being released from prison in israel. people got out fine. and there was video of them that they were tortured and it's all fake. that's something we have to deal with in social media platforms. the truth is difficult because we removed the referees from the platforms. >> hamas is hiding behind the civilians attracting the bombs from israel that's killing civilians, as well. want to ask you about a political matter. hunter biden has agreed to testify publicly in front of the house oversight committee, on december 13th, instead of a closed door deposition. that's a letter sent to the attorneys yesterday. the president's son had been subpoenaed to testify behind closed doors. committee chair james comber of kentucky responded by stating the committee will first want to question hunter biden in private, then leaving open the option of his appearing in a public setting at a later date. also joining us now is dan goldman of new york. congressman goldman, i start with you. this looks to us, we've been discussing, like hunter biden calling the bluff of the leadership of the oversight committee saying, i am happy to tell you everything i know but i'm not going to do it in closed doors. do you think he will get a chance to speak out to the wider committee? >> let's take a step back. the last gasp play of this failed investigation, is to send subpoenas to hunter biden and all of the biden family members, including grandchildren and darters in law and widows of beau biden. in reality, what they wanted was for the biden family to refuse to come in, saying there was refusal to answer. and you must accept the allegations. the fact that hunter biden is willing to testify at all is calling their bluff, and eliminating this last-ditch effort to try to salvage this investigation. he took it a step further. i've been in these closed-door interviews and republicans come out and completely misrepresent the testimony of the witnesses. mislead and support their baseless allegations. and hunter biden is saying, i'm not going to be subject to your control over my testimony. i'm willing to do it. i'm happy to do it. i'm happy to answer all of your questions. i'm going to do it so the american people can see for themselves what i have to say. and the republicans are saying no. they don't want hunter biden to show the american people what they want to say. because it will be the final nail in the coffin of this investigation. >> if hunter biden says, i'm on record that will come before the committee and answer ne any question you ask under oath, any question, the committee says, no, you have to come in. we want to take a deposition in private. what happens? what happens if hunter biden ignores the subpoena to come in. >> i would argue he is complying with the subpoena by coming. it will be hard to hold him in contempt when he said i'm going to supply with the subpoena. and representative goldman is exactly right. they expected hunter to say, i'm not going to participate in the charade of hearings. the republicans have no evidence. and hunter says, i'm going to get the truth out there. and republicans are scrambling. i think the american people want to hear from hunter biden. republicans say, transparency, bad. if they had the evidence, overwhelming evidence on hunter biden, rest assured chairman clouseau would have a hearing with every media you would imagine. he would sit down with al-jazeera to tell them the evidence on hunter biden in a public setting. he would love that. the reason they don't want that to happen, is they don't have the evidence. they want to talk to the echo chamber. if you have the evidence, show it to the american people. in a public hearing. >> congressman goldman wanted to end by speaking about one of your colleagues, congressman santos. you've been a critic of the rookie republican lawmaker, facing an expulsion vote this week. could be a matter of days. he's survived previous efforts to oust him. this one seems, thanks to congressman garcia's resolution, this is going to happen again. do you have enough votes to kick george santos out of kronk? >> it's remarkable that it's a question p. any objective american who looks at the facts of this days and looks at the admissions of george santos, all of the lies and deceit, he used in this election, and you look at the ethics committee report, where it is devastating detail. devastating detail of many, many ways, in which george santos not only violated campaign finance rules and laws, which i fully expected in january. what i didn't expect is it goes further to show he simply stole money from his campaign account, for luxury items, botox, porn sites, you name it. if everyone looked at the facts of this case, every reasonable american would conclude that george santos does not mrong in the halls of congress. he should not be voting on legislation. he should not be the deciding vote to make kevin mccarthy speaker. the sad reality is, i cannot tell you that house republicans agree with that. they've been protecting him for 11 months. they've been keeping him in congress to preserve their slim majority. their political power is more important to them than the integrity of this institution. i would love to tell you when this expulsion vote comes up and the resolution that congressman garcia and i filed yesterday, that guarantees that we take a vote this week. he will be expelled because the conduct is so egregious. i can't tell you that right now. we don't know. congressman dan goldman and jared moskowitz, thank you both. joining us national representatives, the latest piece entitled, "the hunter biden counteroffensive: a strategy longover due or a political mind field?" which is it? >> there was a big change in the way hunter biden approached his man manifold. when he was put at special counsel, that was a sea change. at that point, hunter and the people closest to him, including his attorney. they realized there was no longer a possibility of trying to prevent the justice department from a criminal case of bringing hunter biden to trial. prior to david weiss becoming special counsel, they had pushed back the idea of suing people who played a role in distributing the contents of his alleged laptop, including who pushed the allegations against him. when david weiss became special counsel things changed. and hunter's team decided they had waited long enough to take legal action against his most public facing, most aggressive critics. in the months after that, hunter biden went to court against the most significant antagonists. that's a dramatic change how he handled issues before weiss was special counsel. it's generated concerns by some of the advisers close to the president. for hunter and his team, it's viewed as a posture long overdue. >> eugene daniels, i head to you with the mine field. so many land minds here. >> that's how joe biden feels. they are concerned. that that would bring more spotlight on the issues. house republicans saying there's some kind of nefarious connection between hunter biden's deals and his father. as the congressman just said, haven't shown evidence to that effect. that doesn't stop them from making allegations. there's another side. another group of folks in biden world saying we have to punch back. it is okay to say and not leave a vacuum of misinformation and disinformation in their eyes of things that are popping up and more likely to backfire on joe biden. one person we talked to when it came to polling, 68% of people thought that president biden acted unethically or illegally when it comes to his son's business dealings. they say, that's what we're talking about. we left this space open for all these things to happen, and now people who think that joe biden was the pillar of fatherhood and decency in this country, may think something different because we didn't punch back. the one thing that's interesting -- one of the many things that is interesting, there's a generational divide here, right? some of the folks that were brought up during the clinton era and cut their teeth during that impeachment, focused on keeping your head down and don't bring too much to the scandal. those that cut their teeth during the trump years, know and took from those years, sometimes it's good to punch back. move fast, and then have a counter offensive. that generational divide is playing out here. >> betsy, a two parter for you. how is the biden white house and the biden campaign thinking about this question? they've been dismissive of it and they've gotten help from comber and others saying, there's no evidence. what are republicans thinking they're getting out of this? a popular issue in some cable networks. are they going to pump along with no smoke and no fire, just to keep this some kind of an issue to persuade someone in 2024. >> i can tell you hunter biden keeps his father appraised and up to date on his legal strategy and on the decisions he's making. lower level white house staff don't get the same level of visibility and read-in. some of the staff are irked by this. hunter biden said many of the staff around the president are people he doesn't know. they are people that are strangers to him. and hunter biden saidprivately, why would he expect strangers to defend him when he isn't publicly defending himself. that's a piece of the story. hunter biden is not operating hand in glove with the white house. not operating hand in glove with the national democratic party apparatus. and in fact, hunter biden and people on his team have expressed or signaled frustration with congressional democrats. a friend of hunter biden's that i spoke to, said many hill democrats are betting on the political expediency of sacrificing hunter. choosing solely to defend the president, whileceding ground to the republicans. that's why we're seeing hunter push back aggressively. for republicans, this is rich territory for years. because it's been uncontested. the approach the national democrats are changing. it's been easy for republicans to work with. but now, that's changing. >> the new reporting is online for politico. betsy woodruff, and eugene, stick around. ? . coming up on "morning joe," a look at the service for rosalynn carter. also ahead, jonathan chait joins us why school presidents and ceos should stop making official statements about the news. hi, my name is damion clark. if you have both medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all of these plans include a healthy options allowance, a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month. and whatever you don't spend, carries over from each month. other benefits on these plans include free rides to and from your medical appointments. and our large networks of doctors, hospitals and pharmacies. so, call the number on your screen now and ask about a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. humana. a more human way to healthcare. in the u.s. we see millions of cyber threats each year. that rate is increasing as more and more businesses move to the cloud. - so, the question is... - cyber attack! as cyber criminals expand their toolkit, we must expand as well. we need to rethink... next level moments, need the next level network. [speaker continues in the background] the network with 24/7 built-in security. chip? at&t business. former first lady, rosalynn carter, will be laid to rest today, in her hometown of plains, georgia, following yesterday's memorial service in atlanta. her husband, jimmy carter, there for the tribute. blayne alexander reports. >> reporter: in her beloved state of georgia, family and friendses gathered to pay tribute to rosalynn carter. remembering the first lady as a humanitarian, and devoted wife to her husband of 77 years, jimmy carter. the former president emerged from hospice cover to see his life long partner. also with him, the president, and first ladies. chip carter called her the glue to held the family together. >> i cherish how she and dad raised their children. they give us a great example of how a couple should relate. >> reporter: an emotional amy carter spoke on her father's behalf, reading from a love letter he wrote to her 75 years ago. >> every time i've been away, i've been thrilled to return and discover how wonderful you are. >> reporter: the musical selections, some of mrs. carter's favorites. including a tribute from the close friends, trisha yearwood and garth brooks. jason carter honored his grandmother as a woman of deep faith, drawing laughs as addressing the sisterhood of first ladies in the front pew. >> thank you for your leadership. secretary clinton, and dr. biden, we also welcome your lovely husbands. journalists, judy woodruff, highlighted mrs. carter's trail blazing years in the white house. >> what we witnessed was a first lady going beyond the essential warm and welcoming host. to being a close and trusted, yes, adviser. >> reporter: this morning, rosalynn carter is back home in plains. her place in history, secure. >> nbc's blaine alexander with that report. and coming up, the israel/hamas war has set off fights over official statements by universities, business leaders and towns across the country. our next guest says much of that 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more we've been at each other's throats. here's a trend i would like to see on twitter, #no opinion. this is unsustainable. to politicize everything, means we're always fighting, we don't all agree and never will. and most people don't want to be forced to say anything. kylie jenner posted, we stand with the people of israel. and then, deleted it. which is pretty much the opposite of standing with. one executive who was interviewed about the pressure company have felt to make a statement about the hamas war said, we're not historians, a lot of us didn't understand the issue very well, didn't understand the history. exactly. i'll bet you still don't. just shut [ bleep ] up. >> that's one way of putting it. our next guest is making a similar argument. political columnist for "new york" magazine, jonathan chait joins us now. just stop making official statements about the news. in it, jonathan, you write this. a significant portion of the domestic strifee have experiencing is completely avoidable. it's a product of the newfound expectations that institutions willssue statements about national and world events. the solution is to simply stop making such statements. if wet schools and towns and businesses to muster a clear positi tt everyone can agree on, we are setting them up for anger and betrayal. the most obvious step leaders of our institutions can take is try to stop settle our moral believes and instead, establish rules of the road that let people peacefully co-exist with their disagreements. you know, jonathan, it seems like this would be a great approach to take for campuses, for educational institutions. you're supposed to express ideas and exchange ideas and learn to debate ideas and learn more about each other and how we think and our outlook by communicating. >> that's right. campuses are the number one place where there'sage kags around the expectation. the university is going to have a position. so, what they're fighting over is let's bring the official stance of this university and this business and this town or whatever other organization about the conflict. it goes back to 2020, because you had a clear cut case with derek chauvin murdering george floyd. since we have obvious moral clarity in this example, we can set the precedence of making the official statement we're against murdering innocent people and against racism. we can apply this moral clarity to other issues where there isn't moral clarity. there isn't moral clarity. you had an extraordinary case that set a bad precedent that doesn't work for most things. >> what do you do with companies that now have a responsibility to listen to employees or if you're a university, listen to students, who demand we step forward and say something about this? who demand we take a position? in some cases in college, we're going to be adults here and you're not allowed to do what you're doing on the campus, we're not going to have a statement about this story. there's a new sense of social wokeness or activism or a feeling that your employees' voices do matter and you better say something that reflects the way they feel. >> i mean, i think there's a disconnect between the problem and the solution. they should listen to their employees. that doesn't mean they need to say what the employees say. listening doesn't give them unqualified agreement. employees can say what they want. but the organization -- and students can say whatever they want. but the organization doesn't need to take sides. there's going to be people within the schools and the businesses and within the towns who disagree with each other. you're creating strife for students and employees. you can't have a staple organization where you're expected to take sides, between people who disagree with each other. >> i agree with what you've written. and i'm looking at the front page of "the new york post" the paper of record. cynthia nixon is on the cover. and she's protesting -- she's calling for a permanent cease-fire now. what do we do about people, like cynthia nixon? there's a lot of people like cynthia nixon -- not just celebrities. they're on college campuses, who act as if they are recent graduates of the national war college. they know how to conduct the war. >> that's a different issue. she's free to protest. and that's the correct way they should carry out the point of view. they should personally speak out. they should represent their own opinion. what they shouldn't do is expect the institution they work for to endorse their point of view. that's unfair to the people who disagree at the organization. settle this through traditional free speech ways, not expecting the institution to come in and come down with the position that represents everyone. that's almost always impossible. >> great, really interesting piece here. i'm curious if you think we might be too far down the road where we are right now. younger generations, like my cousins, that want to hear more from folks with a platform, and people they see with the universities on big businesses. you think about this, whether or not the silence from these organizations, only breeds and lets the status quo to grow. and black and brown people, younger people, people without power and money, don't have the same access to influence, unless these organizations actually take a stand and try to change the policy here. >> i agree we're too far down the road. leveraging the power of the organizations is not the way social change is supposed to work. again, these organizations are supposed to be responsive to everyone who works there. you can't have a healthy equilibrium where the organizations respond to the loudest people in them. the loudest group of people or students or employees, they're angry. we're going to take the position they're right and the other employees who don't agree with them don't matter. that's not fair to the other employees. that's not how it's supposed to work. protest has a different dynamic. protest enables people to make their case. that's how you do it. don't leverage your voice and script the organization to disempower people who disagree with you in your own community. >> "new york" magazine's jonathan chait with "the piece of the week." that generates a great conversation that we need to continue to have. thanks. politico's eugene daniels, thank you, as well. coming up, "the new york times" just released its ten best books of 2023. the editor of the paper's renowned book review section will join us to go through the list. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. and find your voice. you know? we really need to work on your people skills. life, diabetes, there's no slowing down. each day is a unique blend of people to see and things to do. that's why you choose glucerna to help manage blood sugar response. uniquely designed with carbsteady. glucerna. bring on the day! 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"the new york times" book review has their best of 2023. joining us, the editor, gilbert cruz. good morning. great to have you here. >> good morning. >> before we crack this list of book, let's talk about the process. how do you get together and agree that these are the ten best? >> it's an air-tight process. and no one has arguments about the ten books we pick. at the book review, we review about review about 1,500 books year, which is a lot. it's about 30 books a week, and there are about a dozen of us looking at all these books and trying to figure out does this rise. the process starts in january, february, we're reading months ahead. does this rise? does this feel like if we were to arrive at the end of the year, we could say this has a sense of scope, a sense of ambition. is there something new in here if it's nonfiction. is there information that we've never seen before done well? we have a series of monthly debates that turn into weekly debates and people are nominating books and we're talking about them and arguing them and taking books off, and then the closer we get to the end of the year, we have a couple of votes. >> it's interesting to say people don't necessarily lobby you for this. maybe it will even backfire if a publisher is coming at you to get on the list. >> it certainly won't backfire. we expect people want to be on the list, but i think publishers know that there would be no point. what we're trying to do is we're never trying to sort of make a statement about the year or anything like that. we're trying to say of all of the books that we've read, close to 2,000 books across all the editors, these are the ones we think will stand the test of time and we think that readers of "the new york times" will buy in the holiday season, gift to others, take out of their local libraries. >> how many people are around the table doing this, going back and forth? >> it varies, but it's about a dozen. >> about a dozen. >> let's get into the list. these are in no order. the bee sting by paul murray, tell us about it. >> this is a book about a family. it's a great family saga. it takes place in ireland around 2008 when the economy is tanking. this family has been riding high on the hog, and finally they're experiencing hard times for the first time. the book divides itself between all four perspectives, and you sort of get really deep into the minds of the teenage boy and the daughter about to go to college and the father that owns the local garage and the mother who was once a great beauty and now doesn't know what she's doing with her life. the reason we all fell in love with this book, we really did fall in love with this book because the characters are amazing. there are some books that are plot driven. there are some books in which you read because we want to get information, and there are some books that every time you put it down, you're wondering what are those people in the book doing? i cannot wait to find out what is next. that is the characters. >> that's such a great way to put it about a good book. you want to get back to it because you wonder what they're up to. how about "fire weather" by john vaillant. there are a lot of climate change books out there, the reason this one stood out is sort of the force in energy of the writing. essentially it's about the 2016 wildfires at fort mcmurray, an oil boom town in alberta, canada. it was founded in order to take advantage of the massive amounts of oil that is underneath the ground. and in 2016 a giant wildfire swept through the town, destroyed parts of it. there was a giant evacuation, one of the biggest evacuations that ever happened in canada at the time, and the author, john vaillant does this amazing blow by blow account of the fire, he intertwines it with the history of oil and petroleum extraction in north america, and the great irony of the book is that there's this town that is based on taking oil out of the ground, and that oil for many people believe leads to climate change, and it is the effects of climate change that led to this town almost getting burned down. >> it's a true story tu. this is an extraordinary true story, "master slave husband wife" what is the story of this enslaved couple? >> an incredible story. i just have to say. this is a book that came out in january, so almost a year ago. it is a book that ran the gauntlet of being compared to all the other nonfiction books we had. ellen and william craft in 1848 around christmastime, right around now, they decided to run away from their masters in georgia and go north, and ellen, who was a lighter skinned woman decided to disguise herself as a rich white man, and her husband william, played the role of her, you know, enslaved servant, and they had a four-day trip from georgia all the way up to philadelphia, and the author gives this journey such detail and such tension that it just reads like a thriller. that is only the first part of the book. it's not a spoiler to tell you that they finally make it and what happens to them with the rest of their lives is they become involved in, you know, the antislavery lecture circuit and grapple with the fact that the fugitive slave law had just been passed and there were people from the south trying to come north to get them. it's an amazing tale. they wrote their own tale long ago. this author was able to add the context and history and detail. it's very richly told. >> tell us about north woods. >> this is a wild one. it's sort of a genre spanning novel that essentially is based around this plot of land in western massachusetts, and it tells the tale of all the people over 300 years that live in this plot of land, which eventually becomes a house, and then eventually becomes a rundown house. and each part of the book, each person that lives there is almost its own little genre, and it hops around these characters in their little vignettes. it's sort of hard to describe, but the writing is gorgeous, and it makes you want to move to like a little cabin in the woods in massachusetts, which maybe is all of our dreams. >> and one more here for an author we've heard of before, zadie smith. >> one of the great novelists of her generation. this is her first historical novel. it's set in the victorian era. charles dickens is a character. it's about a scottish housekeeper, her cousin who is a real famous novelist and a real trial that happened in england at the time in which a person came out of nowhere and claimed to be a long lost nobleman. everyone who's -- it was pretty obvious to even that this guy was not a lost nobleman, he didn't really have the airs of a fancy person, but the british public becomes so invested in the idea that a low born person is trying to make a play into the upper classes that they start to believe him, and they become obsessed with the trail. so zadie smith sort of weaves these stories together in a way that is very entertaining, and one plug, if you're an audio book person, zadie smith reads audio book, she does all the voices. it is an incredible experience! that's only half the list. we're throwing books at him, he's got them all. a great gift buying list for the holidays is the "new york times" best books of 2023. you can find it at nytimes.com. editor of "the new york times" book review, gilbert cruz, thanks so much for bringing them to us. >> good to see you. >> that's all for us this morning, ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a quick final break. uick final break. having diabetes can raise a lot of questions. like my morning ride, will it help lower my glucose? 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