four-times indicted ex-president. nbc news is reporting on potentially game-changing revelation base the former vice president, mike pence. we'll have more on what pence told special counsel jack smith's investigators later this hour. but first, we want to get to the fast-moving developments out of the middle east. at this hour, we are getting our first glimpse of the latest hostages to be released. here are some of the faces of the 12 prisoners released by hamas today, 10 israelis and 2 thai nationals. notably, many are older. among them, a mother and daughter who were kidnapped together. a retired kindergarten teacher. a grandmother of nine. and the 84-year-old founder of one of the kibbutz that was raided on october 7th. this is now day five of the extended truce that for now, barring another extension, is expected to last through tomorrow, for six days in total. as we know, it is a fragile truce and a fluid situation as underscored by the events of just the last 24 hours with, quote, each side accusing the other of violating the truce, israel saying explosives were detonated and militants fired on them. hamas is alleging its fighters had engaged in a field clash provoked by israel. but for now, the truce is holding. and while it does, there are intense diplomatic efforts to keep it that way. the first of three u.s. military flights carrying humanitarian aid has landed in egypt. the 54,000 pounds of food and medical supplies on board that flight are ultimately bound for gaza, where they will be distributed to the civilians there by the united nations. meanwhile, in doha, the cia director, bill burns, is meeting with the held of israel's spy agency, mossad, and with qatari officials. "the washington post" characterizes it as a secret meeting and brokering an expansive deal between israel and hamas. burns is pushing for hamas and israel to broaden the focus of their ongoing hostage negotiations, thus far limited to women and children, to encompass the release of men and military personnel, too, as well as a longer, multiday pause in the fighting, and crucially, the midfield release of american hostages held by hamas, end quote. that last detail is particularly crucial given that no american hostages were released today. that's where we start this hour with nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel in tel aviv. richard, thank you again. it's late night for you there. tomorrow is the last day of the extended truce. prime minister netanyahu has indicated willingness to let this go on for more days if ten hostages are released at a minimum per day. but this morning there was a skirmish in northern gaza and an aircraft above gaza, an israeli aircraft. they're going to run into problems with hostages that hamas says they don't have control over, with men, with members of the military who are being held by hamas. where do you see this going? >> reporter: well, every day it seems like you're fortunate that the cease-fire is holding, and the families here are increasingly concerned that the cease-fire could break down. i was at a square here in tel aviv, generally now called hostage square, and families there were saying -- advocating for their particular relatives, saying put them on the list. we want them out now before the cease-fire either breaks down or expires. as you mentioned, it is close to expiring, tomorrow, and judge big the pace of events, it looks like ten israelis came out today, so ten plus two, ten israelis and two thai nationals. and a similar number is expected, ten and perhaps some other foreign nationals as well, ten israelis tomorrow. so, that would leave many, many families incredibly disappointed, incredibly concerned that their loved ones got neglected, got knocked off the list for whatever reason. and then of course there's the situation of all the men. right now we're just talking about women and children. yesterday was primarily children who were released, a few women, two women, nine children. today it's almost all elderly people, including some in their 80s. so, what about all the men? what about the men who are civilians, men who are above fighting age? so, there is a concern here that we could be in the hours. certainly, we are technically in the final days unless there is some sort of extension. that's why that meeting you mentioned, that secret meeting, which everyone is now talking about in doha, was so important. >> this is the great thing about talking to you, because you're on the ground talking to people. at the same time, you have a broad understanding of what's going on in the rest of the world. doha in qatar is the central place for the negotiations right now. the head of the cia is at the secret meeting with the mossad. obviously, everything that needs to be said has been said before. americans want the american hostages out. they'd like this to go longer. they'd like the pauses in fighting to last longer. yet, there's a great deal of shuttle diplomacy going on. antony blinken is headed back to the middle east again. what is happening or not happening that moves us toward a resolution in this issue? >> reporter: they're talking about expanding the negotiations to include more hostages, so not just to have women and children up for discussion but potentially to have some of the men, or the most sensitive of all have some of the younger men and women, people that hamas considers to be soldiers. if you start talking about those issues, the most sensitive of the hostages, then automatically you're talking about larger issues. you're talking about the blockade of gaza. you're talking about the right of hamas to continue to rule gaza. israel insists, and the united states agrees, that after october 7th, hamas lost the ability to control the gaza strip. hamas was elected into power years ago and had a coup kicking out its rival and has been in power ever since. israel's approach to dealing with it has been to cut off the gaza strip, to build fences around it, build an immensely expensive and complex electronic network around gaza of cameras that hamas was able to get around, figured out a way to beat it. so, how do you get out of this? do you convince hamas to step down? do you convince hamas that it needs to play a different role, incorporate it into a larger palestinian government? as far as i know, those longer-term conversations are not being had or not being had explicitly at this stage. so, you ask what is lacking, i think the longer-term vision of what's happening is lacking. but first, we sort of need to get out of this crisis. the families i was talking to a short while ago are desperate that they only have one more day to get their relatives out, and if it's only going to be ten people potentially tomorrow if it doesn't break down, that's going to leave a lot of disappointed families, a disappointed nation, let alone the men and women who aren't under open discussion at this stage. >> let's talk about the palestinians. the deal is roughly three palestinian detainees for each hostage released. the palestinian detainees are released from prison to the west bank, not to gaza, obviously. we're seeing images of them reunited with their families, in some cases the criticism coming from the israelis is they are wearing hamas flags or, you know, somehow they have hamas paraphernalia on them. these are people who are held in some cases without administrative charge for small crimes. we don't know when they went into prison whether they were hamas supporters or not. but for the last few years, a lot of people have been killed in the west bank, a lot of settler violence. i think there's military action under way in some places. that is a hot zone creating more palestinians who are unhappy with the control israel exerts over their lives. where is that situation coming into play in all the discussions we're having? >> reporter: so, where does the west bank come into play? the west bank is fundamental to all of this. but first it's the question of who are the palestinians who are being released? they are as you describe them, low-level detainees. some were never actually sentenced to jail. they were rounded up. they were in the tribunal phase or the evidence-gathering phase, in kind of a pretrial detention. i'm familiar with one of the people on the list, someone who was just detained a short while ago, and according to people who know her quite well, she's innocent. so, the palestinians in the west bank will say what israel has been doing has been building up stock. they've been looking for people to arrest on in some cases very trivial -- for very trivial reasons in order to have a lot of people on hand so that they can have them to trade. that's what seems to be happening at this stage for the women and children. for the next batch, the more sensitive batch, the people that israel -- hamas considers soldiers, the younger men and women, and the actual soldiers, the people hamas detained who were in uniform, hamas in the past has asked for people like that for hardcore militants, people with blood on their hands, real hamas activists who israel does not want to release. so, that phase of the moon has yet to come. at this stage, we're just seeing very low-level people being released, and the reason it seems some of them are wearing hamas banners or scarves is to thank hamas. they got them out of jail by using pressure. but obviously, it's something that israel finds incredibly distasteful that they would be released from jail in what israel is considering an act of good will and then put on a hamas scarf moments later. a lot of people find that disturbing and offensive. where does the west bank fit into this conflict? there are two governments here to, as you know very well. you've been to gaza. hamas is the government, is a kind of dictatorship government. it took over by force after being elected. in the west bank, you have a very aging leadership, the aging leadership of the palestinian authority, which has almost no popularity since the death of yasser arafat. there hasn't been a single unifying palestinian leader. you have the weak west bank leadership under mahmoud abbas. that's the palestinian authority president. and then you have in gaza hamas, which is an extremist group which carried out the october 7th massacre, killing 1,200 people and taking hostages, including babies. there's a 10-month-old baby held in gaza right now. i was with members of his family. a toddler. it's his brother also held, 4 years old. the whole family was taken. and they are still in gaza tonight. what kind of group takes a 10-month-old baby hostage? and it is unclear where that baby is right now. hamas, according to the israeli military, gave the family, including the two children, over to another militant group. so, hamas has lost its credibility. israel says it's lost its right to govern the gaza strip. and the palestinian leadership in the west bank is incredibly weak and has no credibility among the palestinian people. so, how do you get out of this? and there are some talks. i've been talking with israeli intellectuals and others that you need to think differently. perhaps they need a new leader. perhaps they need to free an inspiring leader from an israeli jail, marwan, a unifying leader, the most popular palestinian after yasser arafat. and he was someone who could have potentially replaced yasser arafat as a unifying leader for all palestinians in the west bank and gaza. but he's been locked up for decades. some israelis are starting to say, well, maybe he should get out. maybe we need to change the calculation and not have two governments and have one unifying government that israel can work with that represents palestinians in both territories, the west bank and gaza. we're not there yet. it's unclear if those secret talks in doha have gotten to this stage yet or if they're talking about what kinds of hostages can be released. the easier ones, the women and children, or the much more complex ones, the military-aged men and women. >> and marwan barghouti has renounced the use of violence. some israelis are increasingly looking toward someone like that as potential leadership in the future. we're very far from that. richard, thank you. richard engel for us in tel aviv. i want to bring in admiral benoit, the executive director for doctors without borders. thanks for being with us. so much of this conversation is about the hostages and their terrible situation and the prisoners that are being released into the west bank. but there's another very, very, very big story going on here, and that is while there is a pause in the fighting, aid is getting into gaza. the u.s. plane has landed with 54,000 pounds of medical aid and food. tell me about that story. is this making a dent? is this helping in any meaningful way to allow trucks into gaza and allow people like your staff to work there? >> well, jonathan for having me. i would say yes, it's helping, but not in a meaningful way. we are coming from so far behind with the people who, under siege, lacked everything -- food, water, medications, shelter. now we've got more than 80% of the population of gaza, more than 2.2 million people, are said to be displaced. and the hospitals are just full. the hospitals that are still functioning. let's not forget that many of them have ceased functioning as a result of either a lack of medication, a lack of fuel to run the generators and all the machinery, the equipment to keep people alive, or much more disturbingly, a complete lack of protection. so, the way this war has been led, all-out war, collective punishments against the people, we have seen time and again that medical facilities, hospitals, clinics, also ambulances and the staff inside, doctors at the bedside of patients, there have been attacks on them. and this is something that outrages us because the medical system is on its knees, barely functioning at all. so, the team that we have trying to support hospitals in the south, nasser hospital in particular, but during this pause, able to have a look at what else is needed, just cannot even fathom how this number of trucks that you mentioned -- yes, it looks helpful -- is going to come anywhere close to meeting the needs. >> from our perspective, richard and i were talking about the talks going on in doha, looking for an extension in the pauses to get more hostages out, from your perspective, the hostages and prisoners, there is a very large population of people, 1.8 million at least displaced so far, and the rest of the people in gaza were not displaced but are living in war conditions, and you need more than ten days of pause in order to allow these people a chance of living in some cases, getting normal health care. we're not just talking about trauma injuries. we're talking about dialysis and cancer and births and things like that. >> yep. it's absolutely true. and, you know, we hear, isn't it wonderful, 200 trucks coming in one day. before this, when you were at the blockade, you had 500 trucks a day. now, with the weeks and weeks and weeks of this total siege, you can imagine that the amount that we need to catch up just to be able to assist people and save those lives is enormous. people are going to be dieing if they haven't already in large numbers. we just haven't got the full count of it. they'll die of infections, dying of blood loss. there are all kinds of things that are happening in these hospitals that, yes, the last couple of days of this truce has allowed us to catch our breath a little in the medical community to try to at least not have a constant influx of mass casualties, huge numbers of people arriving all at once with catastrophic injuries and burns, so you're able to assess things, change some of the dressings, check on the stocks. what we're seeing is there is so much more that needs to happen in order to allow people to get the health care that they need to get through this. and that's not even to mention all the people who are just at home malnourished, dehydrated, and i say at home in quotes because so many are living in rubble and crammed into apartments. there is a lot of concern about communicable disease. there are reports of acute watery diarrhea but no capacity to test if that's cholera. you can imagine with the lack of sanitation and clean water what a catastrophe that would be and how deadly for the population of gaza. >> you don't do it for accolades, but on behalf of us, thanks to your staff at doctors without borders for the very difficult and important work you're doing. thank you for starting us off today. we have big news in the federal election interference case. what former vice president mike pence is telling jack smith about the final few weeks in the trump administration that all concluded with january 6th. plus, why there may not be plea deals for everyone in fulton county d.a., fani willis' sweeping racketeering case. we'll tell you about who may have no choice but to go through a very public televised trial. later in the show, even george santos says this next vote may stick. the embattled lawmaker and admitted liar will face an expulsion vote within two days. the house is back in session today. we'll preview his fate and more. when you're ready to begin treatment for chronic lymphocytic leukemia, calquence helps you do the fighting. and you can do the exploring. you can do the splashing... ...the sightseeing... ...and the playing. calquence is an oral targeted therapy for cll. more patients begin with calquence than any treatment of its kind, and calquence is proven to work 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(soft music) tide is busting laundry's biggest myth... that cold water can't clean. - food fight!! - food fight!! ♪♪ cold water, on those stains? welp, only one way to find out... tide cleans better in cold than the leading bargain detergent in warm. ♪♪ cold water can't clean tough stains? i'd say that myth is- busted! i always wanted to say that! turn to cold, with tide. we have brand-new reporting on jack smith's election interference case against donald trump and how in the days of 2020, trump's vice president, mike pence, alm caved to the big lie. according to abc news, "with the pressure on pencemounting, he concluded on christmas eve just for a moment that he would follow trump'suggestion and let someone else preside over the proceedings on january 6th, writing in his notes that doing otherwise would be, quote, too hurtful to my friend." not feeling like i should attend electoral count, he wrote in his notes in late december, too many questions, too many doubts, too hurtful to my friend. therefore, i'm not going to participate in certification of the election, end quote. then, sit acrs the table from his son, a marine, while on vacation in colorado, his son said to him, "dad, you took the same oath i took. it was an oath to support and defend the constitution. pence recalled to smith's investigators, sources said." that's when pence decided he would be at the capitol on january 6th after all, according to the sources. joining our conversation is the former lead investigator for the january 6th select committee. and the former acting u.s. solicitor general. good to see you both. thanks for being with us. this is a little hard to keep track of what mike pence said to who, because mike pence has spoken publicly, he's written a book, he's said other things to the committee, and all of it's juicy and interesting. but this new reporting from abc seems to put yet more meat on the bones of the confusion and the conversations that took place between mike pence and donald trump. what conclusion does any of this lead you to that you hadn't already come to? >> candid di, ari, not much. it is more interesting anecdotes that reaffirm the core principle, which is that mike pence was among a chorus of people who told the president repeatedly he lost the election and there was no legal path forward. this sort of internal struggle that he had and deliberations as to whether or not he should or shouldn't sit out the joint session. people go through lots of scenarios when they're trying to make hard decisions. he arrived at the right place. as apparently his son advised him, he upheld his oath to the constitution, which was higher than his loyalty to his friend. really interesting in that quote he literally personalized this to it would be hurtful to my friend. so, it doesn't really advance the core understanding of what happened other than a little bit of color and anecdote that was a bit beyond what we got in the select committee. >> there are a few things in there that are interesting that may have legal application. one is, as we often say, commas save lives. there's this whole discussion about comma placement. from the article, sources said that investigators' questio became so granular at times that they pressed pence over the placement of a comma in his book. when recounting a phone call with trump christmas day 2020, pence wrote in his book, you know, i don't think i have the authority to change the outcome of the election on january 6th. but pence told investigators the comma should never have been placed there. pence told smith's investigators he meant to write in his book he admonished trump, you know i don't think i have the authority to change the outcome, suggesting that trump was well aware of the limitations of pence's authority days before january 6th, a line smith includes in his indictment. to tim's point, mike pence's internal struggle aside, he's saying to jack smith's investigation, i told trump that he knows that this can't happen. i'm one more person who told donald trump he has to leave office. >> that's exactly right. as the greatest living artist said in "hamilton," the places of a comma changes everything. you take that excerpt you just showed along with all the other things in this report, and to me, it actually -- i disagree a little with tim -- i think substantively this has come out in various other testimony, but to me, the big news here is that this story to me says former vice president pence is going to testify in a criminal trial against the person who he served -- when he was vice president, the former president of the united states. that's a big deal for the litigation. it's a big deal historically. and it is striking to me that we are learning about all these details now, three years later, basically. i mean, the guy tried to launch a coup as the sitting president, and another guy, pence, is witness to all this, and that witness dribbles out various things over the last three years? i mean, it's not as bad as trump, but it's of the same ilk. when it comes to the 2020 election, you can stand on the right side of history or stand by donald trump, and mike pence has been acting like these aren't mutually exclusive. the story to me today says absolutely, they are. take one. >> he's definitely staked out a side on this thing unlike anyone else's. tim, the comma was interesting and is intriguing in terms of intent and what he believed donald trump knew. but then he says, i'm g to continue from the article, "according to sources, when pence ske with smith's team earlier this year, he said trump's words that morning, january 6th, didn't help, and he said trump acted recklessly as the capitol was under siege. but pence also said he will never believe trump meant for january 6th to be violent." in the vein of what we were just talking about, mike pence is able to straddle every line that's ever been invented. here again he is saying he knew donald trump wanted to stay in office. he told him that wasn't doable, and an aggravating factor of january 6th, but he didn't think it would be violent. >> there's a pretty fine line legally between what's intentional and what's reckless, so maybe he's parsing that fine line that president trump didn't specifically intend for the crowd to be violent. but he certainly acted recklessly touting an angry crowd he knew was armed that they needed to "fight like hell" or they wouldn't have a country anymore, directing the crowd's attention at his vice president, who had told him repeatedly that he had no choice under the law but to certify the electors from each state. is that intentional? is that reckless? it doesn't matter legally. it all demonstrates an intent to disrupt the joint session. that's all jack smith has to prove to obtain a conviction on the charged counts, was did the president intend to take action that reflected an intent to obstruct, impede, or interfere with an official proceeding, the january 6th certification. i think you're right in the notes that mike pence took and his statements to the special counsel providing further evidence of intent, and it was a big deal that the vice president himself would be a witness against the former president. it reinforces the theory that jack smith will develop, he had the intent to disrupt that joint session. >> when you look at jack smith, the indictment, while the violence was remarkable, because we watched it unfold, and we can all come to our conclusions about this idea of whether it was reckless or whether it was intentional, it's not central to jack smith's argument about what donald trump did. the ability to not have people understand that their vote would be counted and be important, the ability to not recognize the outcome of the election, that's what it's all about. in the end, whether or not trump thought he was inciting violence is sadly secondary. >> that's exactly right. tim made that point so well, and you're making it, as well. the key to understanding, the violence is just essentially gravy for the prosecutors. they don't need to prove that. the charges, the conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, and trump did that, forget about the violence, he did it by trying to pressure trump not to show up on january 6th, so much so that evidently it required his son to remind him of his constitutional oath, which i find baffling if you're a high government official that you need that, but evidently he did. trump did that by having this fake alternative electors thing, which is not a thing in our constitution, and all the other stuff. the violence was just one of many mechanisms, and that's why tim and his committee developed that theory, and i expect jack smith and fani willis to push that as well. you know, of course there is some evidence that trump may have intended the violence. i mean, removing the mag no, ma'am --that's something. >> we appreciate you helping us get through this. apparently more bombshells. when we come back, one of the nation's most prominent judges weighs in on this story about mike pence. he was a key player in mike pence's decisionmaking here. what mike pence's testimony in the federal election case could mean for the former president. e. . diets and exercise add to the struggle. today, it's possible to go from struggle to cholesterol success with leqvio. with a statin, leqvio is proven to lower bad cholesterol by 50% and keep it low with 2 doses a year. common side effects were injection site reaction, joint pain, and chest cold. ask your doctor about twice-yearly leqvio. lower. longer. leqvio® only at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner. our financial planning tools and advice can help you prepare for today's longer retirement. hi mom. that's the value of ownership. hi, my name is damion clark. if you have both medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all of these plans include a healthy options allowance, a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month. and whatever you don't spend, carries over from each month. other benefits on these plans include free rides to and from your medical appointments. and our large networks of doctors, hospitals and pharmacies. so, call the number on your screen now and ask about a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. humana. a more human way to healthcare. 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(vo) for a limited time, turn any iphone in any condition into a new iphone 15 pro with titanium and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. that's up to $1700 in value. only on verizon. back on january the 5th, 2021, the day before the attack on the capitol, iowa republican senator chuck grassley raised eyebrows when he told a group of reporters seemeningly out of the blue that vice president mike pence would not preside over the election certification. as the "demoines register" writes, "if theicpresident isn't there, and don't expect him to be there, i will be presiding over the senate and obviously listening to debate without saying anything," grassley said on a call with agriculture reporters on january 5th, 2021. grassley quickly issued a clarification saying he meant he would preside only if pence happened to step out during the debate. but that comment looks a little different today as we're now learning from abc news, jonathan carl is reporting, that pence wrote in his note, and he was a copious note taker, as late as christmas eve 2020 that he would not provide over the joint session, "not feeling like i should atent electoral count." "too many questions, too many doubts, too hurtful to my friend. therefore, i won't participate in the certification of the election." we talked about some of the legal implications of this. sometimes you have to bring someone in as close to the room where it happened, and that's a former judge who was involved -- judge, good to see you -- you were involved in the struggle that we're hearing about, this internal struggle that mike pence. had. you were involved in helping him settle that. ultimately, you needed to tweet some stuff out to confirm he did not have the authority to do the things he sort of knew he didn't have the authority to do. what do these revelations make you think? >> this reporting is of enormous significance for the historical record. it is also of enormous significance and importance to the impending criminal trial of the former president for his conduct in and around january 6th. as to the former, it adds clarity to a point that we understood but didn't know the details around as far back as january 6th. that is that there has been consideration at the highest levels of the white house about the former vice president recusing himself from presiding over the joint session of congress to count the electoral volts on january 6th. before today, we didn't know the extent to which that had been a serious consideration. and before today, of course, we didn't know that the vice president himself had actually decided as late as christmas eve of december 2020, and perhaps as late as january 1st that he would not preside over the joint session. that's important for the historical record. it's enormously important for the former president's upcoming trial because, obviously, the vice president will testify and presumably be jack smith's key witness. and he will relate this story, which doubles down on what we've known, namely that the vice president believed that it was unconstitutional for him to yield to the demands of the former president. he told the president that repeatedly. and the president knew that the vice president, as well as many of his other closest aides, believed that it was unconstitutional and that, in fact, the former president had lost the 2020 election fair and square. you know, you'll remember, ali, that the former president really demanded the vice president's personal loyalty to him over the vice president's loyalty to the constitution of the united states. you may remember that that was the second hatch of my tweet on january 5th. that half of my tweet was actually on january 5th. the most important words that i believed that i had ever spoken. and i -- >> i wouldn't mind reading that because i agree with you. i think your series of tweets on january 5th for decisive. they helped uphold democracy in this country. let me read this part you're referring to. you wrote as part of a series of tweets that you put out there sort of to give mike pence the strength to make the decision he knew when he v he had to make. you wrote, "how the vice president discharges this constitutional obligation is not a question of his loyalty to the president any more than it would be a test of a president's loyalty to his vice president, whether the president assented to the impeachment and prosecution of high crimes while in office. no president and no vice president would or should consider either event as a test of political loyalty of one to the other. if either did, he would have to accept that political loyalty must yield to constitutional obligation. neither the president nor the vice president has any higher loyalty than to the constitution." i assume those are the words you're referring to. >> they are, ali. and obviously, in the end, vice president pence decided on his own, without regard to anything that i said, of course, that, in fact, his loyalty to the constitution of the united states took precedence over his personal loyalty to the former president. >> let me ask you, what changes for you? i was talking to tim and haq about this, and they said it's more of the same. it's new information, and a lot is anecdotal. what changes in your opinion legally? if you're donald trump, are you more or less worried about this reporting today? >> well, if you're donald trump, you're greatly concerned about even this reporting today. but i always said, were i jack smith, i never would have prosecuted the former president unless and until i had the testimony of the vice president before the grand jury. so, i believe that that was the pivotal point for the prosecution of the former president. now, this just adds, again, as i've said -- you know, it redoubles the testimony that will now be introduced at trial from the former vice president that he believed it was unconstitutional to attempt to overturn the election or eve on the delay it, and that he repeatedly told the president of the united states that it was, in fact, unconstitutional, and that he, the former president, should not even think about trying it. but the former president, of course, did. >> let me ask you this, judge. we now know that around december 20th, around christmas, even on a family holiday after christmas, mike pence was struggling with this. you issued this series of tweets to help out mike pence at the request of mike pence's personal lawyer, on january 5th. do you now think that this was even more relevant than you thought it was while you were doing it? in other words, mike pence was shaky about this it seemed all the way through. >> i wouldn't say that it's more relevant now, ali. but what this particular information means that came out today, america was about as close to the constitutional crisis, the paralyzing constitutional crisis that i said to congress would have existed had the vice president yielded to the former president's demands on january 6th. we were in a breath of the constitutional crisis, unlike any that we've ever known in our history, ali. >> judge, it's always a pleasure to talk with you. thank you for being with us. up next, we'll switch gears back to our other top story. in 2019, i met this woman in gaza who knew that life needed to change in that place. she and her brother together have been trying to do just that since then. they both join us on the other side of this break. back in late 2019 on one of my trips to the middle east i traveled to gaza to get as close a look as i could at daily life there. long before the war power outages were regular. students in the enclave, a place with one of the highest literary levels on earth, persist the in their studies often by candlelight. no way to charge computers or phones or access the internet for hours a day. at just 24 years old, this woman created a solar energycompany, just one of the ways she and her brother have worked to improve life for palestinians. yesterday we read from his powerful new op-edailing what he calls their good fortune but excruciating departureut of gaza last week and his continued hope for the future of palestinians and writes, i believe in co-existence as a solutionse i'm fed up and the more than 2 million people living in gaza are fed up with conflict. we need to live peacefully as the people live on the other side of the fence. i think it's possible. there just needs to be more effort invested in making it happen, end quote. joining us now are both of them. first of all, it's good to see you. it's been a long time and worried much about you and your family. you are both safe now. how have you been? >> first of all, thank you so much, ali, for having us. it's a pleasure to see you again and hope to see you in person. it has been a hard time. i think i've been through the hardest time of my life trying to keep the family safe inside gaza. evacuate from the fort to the south, living under pressure and just being disconnected from the family for days, and working so hard with more than 150 people across the world to get them outside of gaza. it was a miracle, ali. >> kamal, i hope to meet you in person one of these days. i didn't get to meet you when i was with majd. you've been in gaza. it's a hard place to live in at the best of times as we've discussed because there isn't constant power. there isn't reliable fresh water all the time. there's no ability to get things or people in and out. what was it like in the last 50 plus days that you were in there? >> hi, ali and thank you so much for having us. it was horrific, a nightmare. we spent 45 days -- i don't want to say it's the worst time of my life but i'm thankful i'm alive. i never imagined this would happen. counting down days to being killed but thankfully we were out and made it safe to egypt and now we're looking for a place to be safe and people to find peace and prosperity. >> majd, one of my fears, of course, because i talk about you about the way i talk about entrepreneurs all over the world, successful entrepreneur depends on whether there's infrastructure to support them. when you and i discussed it in 2019, we discussed that. it's hard in gaza to be an entrepreneur and yet you per significanced and have tinged to do so. i worry about people like you and your brother now being out of gaza, and maybe never going back. is there a future for you there, and will you go back? >> first of all, ali, you are very lucky to have lots of connections across the globe who are able to help us get visas to different countries and travel the world before the war. we've been working so hard since i would say since we realized the fact that we are -- we live in gaza in a hard society and need to contribute a lot for the people there. this is how my parents raised us up, an dedicated our entire life working for the community and it's not just only me, i would say also my siblings. my father educated us in a way that you should give back to society and knew there would be no future in gaza but he gave us an alternative. i never gave up on gaza. i never lost -- i never lost hope in gaza. i always say that if we young people lose hope there will be no future for us. we should be the ones who build our country and, you know, defend for our -- to build our own state, the state of palestine, and that's what we are going to invest over the coming years for. kamal, i, and lots of other young people in our generation. it's true that nine of my family members were evacuated from gaza in the past few days, but there are millions now, at least 2 million people i would say who have nothing to do with anything going on on the ground and paying for the price for something they didn't do and need to evacuate them, not just outside of gaza but evacuate them to a better life, a better future. you cannot just move a nation from their own place. i'm a palestinian. you know, this will never change, even if i get a different citizenship, i will always be a palestinian. i will always work for palestine and i will always work to rebuild my country. >> kamal, what do you need from the world right now? what does the world need to understand to lou people like you who are palestinians to rebuild their country? >> well, ali, first i need the whole world to keep calling for a cease-fire. this is the least thing we can do right now. we need to save lives. we need to find a safe place for the people to go to then we can think about solutions. as majd said, we are committed to rebuilding gaza and will build a beautiful place where people can live peacefully and make a living. gaza right now is a bunch of rubble on the streets and a lot of dead bodies and that's the only thing i can remember from what i saw in gaza and i'm committed to keep calling for a cease-fire to end this and think about rebuilding it but we will do that and we're committed to doing that and we will to do it for all of our life. >> i know that you are and i hope everybody reads your op-ed and thank you both for being here. glad you're both safe and may we meet again. majdalmashharawi and kamal almashharawi. how the case in georgia is going and new reporting on how prosecutors are considering plea deals. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts right after the break. delectables ♪ the long-lasting scent of gain flings made it smell like dave was in his happy place... ...the massage chair at the mall. but...he wasn't. gain flings with oxi boost and febreze. you can't possibly think we're going to pull this off. that call was crazy, and he looked at me and just started shaking his head. he said, no, cass, he knows it's over, he knows he lost but we're going to keep trying. there are some good options out there. we're going to keep trying. >> it's 5:00 in new york. i'm ali velshi in for nicolle wallace. few men knew the former president than his chief of staff, mark meadows, with him on january 6th on that call with the georgia secretary of state, brad raffensperger. meadows pressured the doj to investigate voter fraud conspiracy theories like italygate. meadows even went down to georgia in december of 2020 to observe an audit of absentee ballots. meadows along with hisormer boss was one of the 19 individuals indicted in fulton county d.a. fani willis' case and new reporting in "the guardian" finds that two people familiar with the matter, prosecutors do not intend to offer plea deals to tmp and at least twoer high-level co-defendants. the two they point to, meadows and trump's former lawyer rudy giuliani. frt reporting, quote, the eviously unreported decision has not been communicated formally and could still change, for instance, if prosecutors shift strategy. but it signals who prosecutors consider their main targets and how they want to wield the power of georgia's racketeering statute to their advantage, end out of the 19 indicted four have pleaded guilty. sidney powell, jenna lis, kennetheseo and scott hall. asthe guardian" notes, it undes - the plea deals underscore the strategy that willis has refined extending offers to lower-level defendants in which they incriminate higher-level defendants in the conspiracy pyramid. this development out of fulton county comes as another state case involving the ex-president is moving along. today on the stand in the new york civil fraud trial where witnesses associated with deutsche bank, the largest lender to trump's businesses defending the bank's decision to let the trump organization borrow money. just yesterday we learned from trump's lawyers that the former president will take the stand in his own defense next month. he will be the defense's last witness and that is scheduled for december the 11th. and that's where we start this hour with msnbc legal analyst lisa ruben here with me at the table plus former deputy assistant attorney general and former united states attorney harry litman and "the new york times" investigative reporter susanne craig is back. welcome to all of you. susanne, i want to ask you, the repository of all information about this, you are, about deutsche bank and the relationship to donald trump and his companies and the financing that they provided. why is this relevant or unusual? >> right. when you think about donald trump and his money for many years, you have to think about deutsche bank. they were his biggest lender for years, and they've loaned to some of his biggest projects when you think the old post office hotel in washington that the trump family recently sold. they were the biggest lender on that. they were the lender on doral, a golf course outside of miami. they were also right in the middle of the chicago project, a huge hotel that donald trump built in the 2000s, and they were the lender on that and that was his last actual full project that he built from the ground up, so deutsche bank is very intertwined with the trump family and all coming to the forefront in a courtroom in manhattan because a number of these loans are now under the microscope by the attorney general in new york, and when you think about it, this week was interesting and i know we're going to talk to lisa a lot more about what happened today in the court but you have to think in terms of the trial they're his biggest lender, in a way his biggest victim as well and came forward to say, i think in some that these loans, you know, they are all performing, and we didn't -- and deutsche bank executives were saying we didn't necessarily fully rely on them. we did our own due diligence on these loans and went ahead with our own metrics and made the loan and that's one of donald trump's key points, they did their own due diligence, they're big banks and big players and they're responsible for doing their own due diligence an they did. >> they're under the microscope in large part because there is an actual trial but in large part because of the reporting that susanne craig and her team did. most people ask for a second beat and think about deutsche bank. what did they say today? >> you know, they talked about the process that they went through in deciding to loan to donald trump. there was a process, and they did do some degree of due diligence, but on cross-examination, they were also forced to admit that their due diligence was by necessity limited. if the client isn't presenting to you accurate information in the first place, then your efforts to confirm that information are going to be lacking in some respects. they also talked about their willingness to grant trump more favorable terms because of their perception of his net worth. they thought and one of the witnesses today testified that he had $100 million in liquidity. that's something that i think experts on trump might question. and then, of course, there's the issue of when the bank terminated its relationship with donald trump and today's witnesses weren't really able to testify to why that happened, but tomorrow we're expecting to see rosemary, the senior banker with whom the trump family dealt initially introduced by jared kushner. when we get to the part of why deutsche bank stopped extending credit to donald trump, she's the one who can tell that story and i expect that won't be helpful to donald trump because even if the loans performed, even if deutsche bank was happy, they ultimately decided that they weren't going to continue doing business with him and there was a reason why. >> what can you tell us about that, susanne? >> came to mind also because the loans were performing, that doesn't mean laws weren't violated and i think we'll see, you know, as the course of this plays out and in closing arguments you will hear talk about that. they could have been performing. deutsche bank made millions off of them but they could have made more and laws could have been broken and i think that's sort of what the residue i come away from deutsche bank, the various testimony that i've been reading about this week and sort of following lisa while she's been down there. >> ali, if i had to summarize what happened this week in six words, it would go, no harm, no foul from the trump people and then so what from the attorney general for the reasons that susanne mentioned, because the bank didn't lose money doesn't mean it couldn't have made more. they have expressed interest in vindicating the interest of all of us in new york who need to access financial markets. if people like donald trump can mess with the integrity of the markets then it's certainly not -- >> not a victimless crime. >> correct, and their position is, not only was deutsche bank a victim, even if it doesn't see itself that way but we're all victims of a corrupt market. >> let's talk about georgia. this whole reporting in "the guardian" that says they're not looking at making a deal with rudy giuliani or mark meadows. in 50 years when we look back at this if donald trump is convicted for something that will be the only story. no one will care about mark meadows whether he was convicted or not convicted and maybe people will care about rudy giuliani. i don't know. is it real they won't make a deal with them or just telling them that so meadows can sit there and say, oh, my god, i'm going to have to offer them something really good? >> they haven't offered it to date and i'm not actually sure. when we think back on watergate we look to ehrlichman and haldeman. fani willis is an elected prosecutor. there are people that came from washington and made mischief, and giuliani and meadows are top of the list, as you say, then there are political officials within georgia who didn't comply with their duties, and i think you may see a whole series of pleas leading up to david scheffer who is the most guilty person among the local georgia electors. sure, prosecutors draw lines like this and if they have drawn it in particular giuliani is in tremendously bad shape. he has no money and really he would have to go through the exercise, pay for the exercise only to get a very little bit of time off for at best if he admits his guilt. this is especially bad news for him today if it's true. we knew it about trump. we had a pretty good idea about meadows who still has legal claims, it is a body blow to giuliani. >> let's talk about that, the difference between trump, giuliani, and meadows in this whole thing, because obviously fani willis and jack smith want to get at donald trump. rudy giuliani, what's the difference in what rudy giuliani is to this case and what mark meadows is to this case? >> that's a very good question. i think mark meadows was further away from the sort of granular evidence collecting that rudy giuliani, sidney powell, jenna ellis and others were involved in but rudy giuliani is also connective tissue in a way, that mark meadows is not out. reporting about the fulton county case today there was connection between social media posts about a meeting at the willard hotel with kathy lathham said to be involved in the coffee county voting machine scheme and the story anna is telling she met that day at the willard hotel with rudy giuliani, took pictures with sidney powell and mike flynn then that night they went to the white house, had that infamous meeting with trump that got kind of crazy, out of control where they talked about an executive order to seize the voting machines. so, when i think about rudy giuliani, i think about a person whose hands were sort of in all of the cookie jars, right and the fake elector scheme and coffee county voting machine breach and communicating directly with trump. meadows was somewhat removed what he allowed to happen and what he encouraged to happen and the way he talked to both sides trying to encourage team normal he was with them, encourage team crazy he was with them. different degrees. >> harry, we've heard a lot from both of these guys, the whole world has heard a lot from rudy giuliani whether you wanted to or not over the last few years but heard a lot from mark meadows because he got up and spoke, he was trying to get his trial moved and trying to get severed from the main case. so, we know a lot about what he's saying and lisa makes a good point. he sort of tries to describe himself as part of team normal. i was -- what did he say, i was trying to land the plane for the president. i wasn't really involved in the they -- >> lisa makes good points. i'll add. first, we have heard a lot from him and among other things, he is a lousy witness. he can do nothing for them because the cross-examination with all the lies he told in public would completely destroy him. that's one point, second, he was much more aggressive and brow-beating in georgia. remember, she's a local elected prosecutor and he came down and bullied the election workers with the false tale about suitcases, he came down and told tales to the g. commission and meadows, as you say, could at least say i'm trying to steward trump along. there are other reasons why he's very culpable, but giuliani really terrible witness and really especially involved in beating up on georgians and that's something fani willis cares about. >> yeah, susanne, there's a date for it which takes it out of the abstraction. it's real for people now including donald trump. donald trump's going to be the last witness in the new york fraud trial. i think it's probably two weeks from now, december 11th. we were on -- you were on tv with me the night the decision from the judge came down. what happens here? this case has been poking at donald trump. some people have said he started to come undone because of what's happened in new york. he now has a real serious case to look forward to in georgia. >> right, i mean, the civil case is really under his skin. you know, the georgia one and others, his, you know, liberty is at stake. for this one it's about his money. it's about his livelihood and the inheritance of his children and their children, and it's already real for him. you know, the judge has already found on summary judgment that he is libel. there is a receiver over his company and whether or not they can continue to do business in the state of new york is at risk and the fine could reach up to $250 million. we still don't quite know where it's going to come in. that is big money for him. it is not tax deductible and i think the next phase of this is we'll see it kicked up to the appellate court. they'll keep going on appeal, but that doesn't mean in the interim there's not going to be a potentially crippling effect to his business going forward because there's already a receiver over it and there's already been consequences. >> always a game trying to figure out when the court cases will happen or not. august is not a date that's been set by the judge. >> fani willis has told judge scott mcafee that she's ready to try this case beginning august 4th. she also set an outside date for like when voluntary pleas should happen of june 21st so her team understands who they're preparing for trial against. it's anybody's guess which of these will go first. right now we have a march trial date with judge chutkan in d.c. and fani willis who wants to try her case in august, and a may trial date for judge aileen cannon. i will venture a guess because of certain appeals issues in the d.c. case it's possible fani willis beats both of the federal cases to trial, even though i believe judge chutkan wants to do everything within her power to keep her train moving. it may be that certain appeals that get elevated to the court of appeals in d.c. before her trial date necessitate a pause there such that she's not able to go forward and if mcafee is, in fact, amenable to fani willis trying it in august or sooner as john eastman wants maybe she goes first after all. >> everybody, just check your diaries before you make your vacations. good to talk to all three of you. thank you, suzanne craig, harry litman and lisa rubin, thank you. the clock is ticking on the congressional career of the new york republican george santos. the house is back and the efforts to suspend him are growing stronger. we're joined by a democratic house member after a quick break. also ahead, the biden campaign pouncing on comments by the disgraced ex-president suggesting he would do away with obamacare. how the current president is weaponizing those remarks against his once and likely future rival. and remembering rosalynn carter, the former first lady was memorialized in a tribute that featured her husband and two other american presidents, as well as every living first lady. all that and more still to come. don't go anywhere. hmmm... can this be more, squiggly? 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[ cheers ] yeah! woho! running up and down that field looks tough. it's a pitch. get way more into what you're into when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. santa says that if he is removed from congress he will wear it like a badge of honor right next to his medal of freedom and purple heart. one thing he will not do is go quietly in the night. >> within the ranks of the united states congress there's felons galore, there's people with all sorts of shisty backgrounds and all of a sudden george santos is the mary magdalene of congress. we're all going to stone this mother [ bleep ] because it's politically expedient. >> and the credit card that pays for only fans but mary magdalene sounds better. >> george santos may live the rest of his life a punch line but this afternoon his future is in serious doubt. a short time ago congressman robert garcia filed what's called a privileged resolution to expel him from the house. essentially that triggers a countdown clock. santos will face a vote on his future in the next two days. now, how that will go down isn't exactly a metaphysical certainty. he survived two votes. that would have made him only the sixth member ever to be expelled from the house but since the release of that embarrassing ethics report detailing his actions a number of lawmakers have flipped. adding to the uncertainty majority whip tom emmer told reporters today his team does not plan to whip votes on the resolution. republicans will vote their conscience or not. after all, kicking santos out of congress and slamming the door behind him would for the first time -- would for at least the time being further erode an already razor thin republican majority that republicans have a difficult time controlling. joining me eric swaul -- swalwell. all the weirdness you and i have discussed this is an extra level of weird. it's very, very unusual for a member of congress to be expelled from the house, number one. when it does happen, it's often got to do with a crime that's already been adjudicated. there were some members, even some democrats who said don't do this yet, let's wait for the ethics report to see how bad it is and it's come back and said this is really bad. >> i was in the camp of what the hell is taking you so long. the guy admitted to most of what he has been accused of you. now he has a day in court and it's a different standard but did admit once he was called out by "the new york times" and local press that he did defraud the voters, and i think the fact that republicans are willing to keep him around as long as he was useful to them, useful to deliver the votes to take away any freedom that mattered to any of your viewers just shows they're not a serious lot when it comes to governing. >> what's your sense of what is going to happen? something has to happen within two days, but as we learned with the house of representatives these days, who knows? >> he's gone. >> you think he's done. >> that's right. again, it's because he's a political inconvenience now for republicans. but, you know, when they needed him, you know, to pass votes to take away a woman's right to make decisions about her own body, he was great. you know, when kevin mccarthy needed him to vote for him for speaker, he was great to have around. and so i think what we have to contrast as democrats is that we are all about governing and being serious and helping you in your life and they are just about chaos, incompetence, and theater. >> he's another level of chaos and theater given that there's a lot of chaos and theater. there's all this talk about they have a razor thin majority. that's why they don't want to give it up. little in the house has relied on that. in other words, when things have happened in the house it's generally been because democrats have gotten involved in doing it so does it matter much if george santos is out of congress? >> no, it's going to matter to the tv writers this this building for "saturday night live." they're going to miss him but, favrely, everything that mattered from keeping the government open to paying our bills in the debt ceiling and funding the needs in the middle east and ukraine, democrats are going to deliver the majority of the votes, again, because we're serious about getting things done and what really has struck me over the years and this is what donald trump brought to washington. we work in pro wrestling and entertaining the fans. i happen to call them constituents, people with needs but there's this showmanship. as a californian i'd prefer if we left the art and entertainment to the experts in the industry and that we do, you know, a job of governing and helping people. >> let's talk about where we are on that right now. the house has a speaker. but it is limited in what it's been able to do. i will say the first outings with this new speaker surprised some people because he came up with an unusual suggestion for a continuing resolution that nobody thought would work and for the moment he kepts house open. in terms of getting things done, in terms of legislating where are we in the house and where are we going? >> there's still massive uncertainty because any one person in this land of misfit toys can call for his removal so it's a matter of does he want to govern for what's best for the country so fund the needs in ukraine and the middle east and keep the government open or is he going to be beholden, you know, to matt gaetz and others who want chaos and the house of representatives to work as a law firm on behalf of one client, donald trump. so, we'll see in the weeks ahead. look, they've shown their unseriousness today with hunter biden and said you want me to testify, i'll come in and testify. i'll do it publicly and now they're backing off and saying, we want to do it behind closed doors so there's not a level of seriousness that meets, you know, what the need is today in governance. >> yet, we're within a year of an election. what happens then, because, you know, in the last midterm elections they said it was about the economy and it was about inflation and turns out it's not about a lot of the things that republicans say it's about. it's still going to be about abortion and still going to be about rights and still going to be about serious governing. do you see a shift? do you see republicans moving in a direction that says let's come out with poliies that appeal to people? >> i'd be worried if they learned from past mistakes. abortion is a great example where they keep trying to negotiate around that, you know, solid right for a woman and her own body and the voters are rejecting it. we'll bury magaism in a year. donald trump's best day was november 2016 and he has been a loser ever since, midterms in '18, lost the white house and the senate in '20, red wave never came in '22, just lost in virginia, ohio and across the country, so our voters know that freedom is on the line, financial freedom, freedom of body, freedom to vote, what your kids can read is all on the line and i'm confident we'll mobilize and organize in the right direction. >> eric swalwell, thanks for being with us, representative, democratic representative from california. when we return democrats and the biden campaign are licking their chops over new comments made by donald trump suggesting he'd get rid of the very popular law that brought health coverage to millions, obamacare. that conversation after a short break. ah, these bills are crazy. she has no idea she's sitting on a goldmine. well she doesn't know that if she owns a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more she can sell all or part of it to coventry for cash. even a term policy. even a term policy? even a term policy! find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com. when we win on november 8th -- [ cheers and applause ] -- and elect a republican congress, we will be able to immediately repeal and replace obamacare. >> oh, repeal and replace. spoiler alert. that didn't happen. while donald trump made repealing the affordable care act or obamacare one of his signature campaign promises that was thwarted by john mccain's famous thumb's down and somehow trump never got around to trying again maybe due to the public failure to attempt crushing medical debt but public miliation and failure has never been able to stop him long posting on truth social writing, we had a couple of republican senators who campaigned for 6 years against it and then raised their hands not to terminate it. it was a low point for the republican party but we snud never give up. the biden campaign leaped on it making it the focus of a national ad campaign contrasting legislation passed by mr. biden that loyered prices on som prescription drugs with mrtrump's proposal to repeal the affordable care act, the president himself weighing in, quote, my predecessor once called for cuts that could rip away health insurance for tens of millions of americans. they just don't give up, end quote. joining our conversation eddie glaud and special correspondent and msnbc contributor katty kay. good afternoon to both of you. thanks for being with us. eddie, let me start with you. you heard my conversation with eric swalwell. republicans don't seem to be willing to engage in a discussion about policies that people might vote for. this was always a loser and tried to repeal and replace obamacare 50 times it got brought up in the house and was never a winning strategy. i'm puzzled by why this continues to happen. >> well, ali, i think we need to think about it at a different level. there's the policy question and then there's what he's appealing to. i want to read this particular claim about obamacare alongside his recent post or truth, whatever we call it, about that he wasn't confusing obama and biden. remember how there was this talk about his inability to kind of keep those two apart. no, obama works as a way of kind of, shall we say, ginning up the grievance of the base. here you have the appeal to obamacare as another example of these -- big government taking things away from, what, deserving people, hard-working people and giving away things, right? and so i want us to read this not so much at the level of policy debate, but really at the level of donald trump appealing to the level of grievance among his base and i think once we get there, now we're at the meat of what he's trying to do. >> yeah, i hadn't thought about the increasing references to barack obama in donald trump's discussions these days. katty, let's talk about americans' views on obamacare which is why it confuses me. 59% of americans have a positive view of obamacare. 40% have a negative view of it. again, it's not just -- it didn't go as far as it could have in terms of ensuring americans in a universal fashion like most developed countries do but did spread a lot of coverage through the system, particularly to those people in need. it just strikes me, what's your take on why republicans would be anywhere near policies that go against the american population? >> yeah, the one thing that was really seemed to be at the time kind of unpalletable or controversial to many americans was this idea of mandating health insurance although as you say, ali, this is something that is universal in other developed and western countries but didn't seem to go down well in america and stripped out. that's how they got it through and ever since it's gone through it's only grown at popularity. now 60% of americans, a majority, many more democrats than 60% favor obamacare but 60% of all american voters think it's a good thing so it would seem a counterintuitive thing. not clear from what former president said when he said he was going to seriously look at alternatives and then made a quip about republican senators who voted against it. seemed like almost this was a jibe against the late senator john mccain as much as a thought out policy and in my conversations with people close to the trump campaign or in the trump campaign, i know that they are discussing a whole range of policy issues but i've never heard anyone from the trump side say to me, we're looking at repealing obamacare. i wonder if it was even a thought out policy position by donald trump or whether it was just a quip that he made and we know that he's long harbored a sense of grievance about john mccain, didn't like him and takes any opportunity he can find to criticize him. i wonder if it was as much that as something he's seriously thinking of doing not that the white house hasn't leaped on this. >> both of you are right in saying that there doesn't seem in many cases with donald trump stuff, there doesn't seem to be a big, deep policy thing behind this thing. there's something political about it one way or the other. but, eddie, donald trump does continue to take credit for places in america that have succeeded in pulling back on abortion rights for women. he's recently taken credit for the destruction of abortion rights in iowa, for instance. once again, doesn't matter who brings these referenda up but every time there's one, the abortion rights side wins in this country and that's not because maybe people like abortion so much, it's that they like the right to make their own decisions. it's kind of like what we saw in the last midterm elections for the moms for liberty candidates going down because people want to make their own decisions about what their children read. i don't know where the grievances are on the abortion discussion. he's doing something that he's taking credit for that's not popular. >> i think he's always appealing to his base and in this instance there's a certain kind of conservative white evangelical base. and so there's always in the context of the primary, ali, an attempt to kind of feed red meat to the base and this is the example. he wants to consolidate that 20%, 30% of the maga base so he can kind of run roughshod in the republican primary and that involves abortion, that involves going after the administrative state, that involves being very mean-spirited vis-a-vis we think those folks who are poor and playing all those cards and when he plays them they're caricatured, not substantive but long-standing policy positions that defined a certain wing of the republican party. >> something caught my attention, katty., the koch brothers organization, there's only one koch brother at this point. they're moving their political support from ron desantis to nikki haley. nikki haley whose performance in the last couple of debates has seemed comparatively normal. you know acting as someone who was a governor of a state. that's interesting to me. she still has a 30-point gap between her and donald trump. in normal circumstances we wouldn't talk about as competitive. do you see something as it relates to the presidential race? >> there have been all along some republicans and some republican donors which is why ron desantis got so much attention and excitement from big money republican sources when he first launched his campaign, people who are looking for anyone but trump in the republican party and in the republican money circles. they thought ron desantis was their guy. he clearly isn't. he's been fading in the polls and i think that, you know, hoping that perhaps nikki haley could be that, i agree with you. i find it really hard to see how the republican primary season goes on much beyond new hampshire. i mean, maybe i'll be proved wrong and one thing where you'll come back and play me the tape, but that 30-point gap is a bigger gap than barack obama substantially bigger than barack obama had behind hillary clinton before i overtook her in the primaries in 20007 so hard to see her closing it, the desperation in the republican party that they still don't like the idea of a secretary donald trump win -- run because the republican party has a history of losing under donald trump. >> yeah, i'll ask you both to stick around for a quick minute. just ahead a celebration of life for the former first lady, rosalynn carter, and with it the first opportunity in a very long time to see former president jimmy carter alongside fellow presidents and first ladies. we'll show it to you after a short break. some facts. i'm a mom from virginia. i work with immigrants in israel as well as palestinians, and five members of my family were kidnaped by hamas on october 7th. two were brutally murdered and three are still being held. all i want, all anyone would want, is to hug them and hold them again. we demand medical care. we demand the release of the hostages from hamas terrorists. these are innocent women and children. return them to us, to their families. demand their release. the life and legacy of the former first lady, rosalynn carter, was remembered today at a moving tribute service in atlanta, georgia. she is remembered not only for her efforts to elevate and transform the role of the first lady, but also for her tireless humanitarian work as she dedicated herself to a life of advocacy for mental health care, the rights of caregivers and gender equality. former president carter would turned 99 last month and has rarely been seen since entering hospice care made the 140-mile journey from the couple's hometown of plains, georgia, to pay tribute to his wife of 77 years. the two were the longest enduring presidential couple in american history. former president carter was surrounded by other notable guests including president joe biden and first lady jill biden, former president bill clinton and all former living first ladies. a testament to the extraordinary woman rosalynn carter was. joining our conversation is the nbc news presidential historian michael beschloss and eddie and katty are back. for everything rosalynn carter did as first lady, what i always found most interesting about their story is how how much she did before he was president, before he was a governor when he was a naval midshipman. they had a partnership that went back to their youth enex and she was a strong participant in that. it's a very obvious and strong participation in that relationship that only evolved as he moved into public life. >> yeah, both personal and also business and political, and it was a relationship that in a way was more 2023 than it was 1946, the year that they were married, and one of the best things about this is that, you know, jimmy carter being a modest man, he knew what skills he lacked. one of the skills he lacked was the ability to see through people. that was a quality that rosalynn carter had in abundance. she was a great executive. when he was serving in the state senate and otherwise absent, she was able to take over the peanut warehouse and function in a way that was just as good as he had been if not better. but the most important thing i think is that when they went into the white house, they took this relationship which was as close to an equal partnership as we have ever seen between a president and first lady and they made it public. you know, usually, ali, i can tell you from studying presidents and first ladies for decades, usually the first lady says i don't do anything, you know, i really do things that are mainly social and keep the family together and give all the credit to the husband and then usually when the president and first lady pass you find that these first ladies were a lot more important. from the very beginning, the carters made it clear that these were two people who took each other very seriously, relied on each other. he put her in cabinet meetings and sent her on diplomatic trips and i would say if you like the year 2023, the fact that these days at least in most precincts, people now treasure and respect strong women, that is certainly true of everyone on this panel, that owes to some extent the role model that the carters set in the late 1970s when this was a lot more rare. >> eddie glaude, when you talk about jimmy carter, there's this legend around him that so much of what he understood about race was that he grew up in segregated georgia but it's more complicated than that. he had his own struggles around race. rosalynn carter had her own struggles around race. they were not who they ended up being in the beginning. >> no, they evolved and i think at the heart of that evolution is their deep faith. you know, you think about president carter's attempt to win re-election, he had trouble with the black community because of austerity policies that in some ways hurt urban american when those black voters had put him in office. jimmy baldwin wrote a letter directly to jimmy carter expressing his deep disappointment. but, again, evolution and when i think about rosalynn carter, i think about two things, she lived her faith and she lived her love. she lived her faith, and she lived her love. and in these very dark times, ali, what a remarkable moment of breakthrough to experience a life of decency and love in the midst of all of this darkness. >> katty, we are in this unusual world where we look back at this. jimmy carter was a young man when he became president and he was a young man when he left the presidency. he had the most complete post-presidency we've ever -- he invented the post presidency because he was young enough to do so and dedicated his life to making things better for people. this is -- you can't help -- while president carter is still with us at the age of 99, you can't help but think this -- half the legacy is gone now with rosalynn carter, and he always said so. he always treated as half that legacy. >> yeah, and she made -- as michael was saying, she made no bones about it. the fact that she sat in on cabinet meetings, she was a strong voice in the white house, she was the first first lady to move the staff into the east wing, hire a staff, pay a staff, which, by the way, she got criticized for is a tribute to her. we'd be remiss if we said diffe hillary clinton and rosalynn warder. she got criticized, too. her office got complaints that she was paying herself a proper wage. so she had to withstand a certain amount of criticism from the press in washington and being frumpy and plain in comparison to jackie o. i think it's even more a tribute to her that she withstood that criticism and still managed to -- and first lady had a voice. >> michael, the health of the carters in the last several months has been something we followed, followed it like royalty, like the love story that it is. they have grown old holding hands until the last day they could go to church together. jimmy carter teaching sunday school until the last time. i bet he would if he could. flew 140 miles for the service today. it is a remarkable story of resilience. >> it is one of the great marriages in american history among presidents, first ladies. hard to think of another marriage that's going on this interesting to write about. -- get access to their love letters. we were talking earlier about civil rights and race. think about what it was like for the carters to be living in plains, georgia, in the early 1950s when jimmy carter was going into politics and rosalynn carter was -- 1960. people were getting killed in georgia trying to establish equal rights. martin luther king was locked up. he was about to be moved in the fall of 1960 to perhaps the most dangerous prison in georgia. his wife coretta thought he would die there because it was a ferociously anti-black place. in plains, georgia, the carters worked for jfk in 1960, supported lbj in 1964. one of the sons talk about it today at that service. to do that, to have an lbj sticker on your bumper in 1964, the author of the civil rights bill of 1964, meant that not only that son but other members of the family got beaten up. the carters lost business. this was a rough time for them to be there in plains taking a position like that. so if you're looking at what really causes two people to be welded together in a marriage, one was they both had enormous physical courage that only grew. and the other thing is they shared their ideas. one last point -- 1971, jimmy carter gives his inaugural address as governor of georgia, and he says -- and i quote exactly, he said, i say to you quite frankly that the time for racial discrimination is over. he doesn't say much in 2023, but in 1971 georgia, that was revolutionary. >> i leave you all with this thought. president carter's statement on his wife's passing. rosalynn was my equal partner in everything i ever accomplished. she gave me wise guidance and encouragement when i needed it. i always knew someone loved and supported. thank you for spending time with us. quick break for us. we'll be right back. eak for us we'll be right back. the turn of a dial, with zero sugar and zero calories. and cirkul has over 40 flavors, so your water can 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(vo) for a limited time, turn any iphone in any condition into a new iphone 15 pro with titanium and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. only on verizon. an update on the "wall street journal" reporter evan ger gesh cowits who's been held. he will a main in moscow until at least january the 30th. he's being held on an espionage charge that he, "the wall street journal," and the u.s. government all reject. however, if convicted, he could space up to 20 years in a russian penal colony. russian authorities suggested they could be to a prisoner swap, but only after a verdict is reached. representatives for the u.s. embassy in moscow present at the hearing said they were deeply concerned by the decision and called for evan's immediate release. another break for us. we'll be right back. other breaks we'll be right back. and i'm raising a cowgirl. and discovering that my family come from farmers for generations. this life is in our blood. give the gift of family heritage with ancestry. hi, i'm katie, i've lost 110 pounds on golo in just over a year. golo is different than other programs i had been on because i was specifically looking for something that helped with insulin resistance. i had had conversations with my physician indicating that that was probably an issue that i was facing and making it more difficult for me to sustain weight loss. golo has been more sustainable. i can fit it into family life, i can make meals that the whole family will enjoy. it just works in everyday life as a mom. in order for small businesses to thrive, they need to be smart, efficient, savvy. making the most of every opportunity. that's why comcast business is introducing the small business bonus. for a limited time you can get up to a $1000 prepaid card with qualifying internet. yep, $1000. so switch to business internet from the company with the largest fastest reliable network and that powers more businesses than anyone else. learn how you can get $1000 back for your business today. comcast business. powering possibilities.

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