it is monday, november 20th. this morning, there are positive signs that more hostages held by hamas could soon be freed. we'll get the latest on that and the war with a live report from tel-aviv. plus, how the war is impacting biden politically, as a new poll shows young voters are growing even more disillusioned with the current administration. also, we'll remember the life and legacy of former first lady rosalynn carter. >> wow, she -- >> passed yesterday. >> i would hear your family talk about rosalynn carter. >> yeah. >> the love and the respect that you all had, from the kids to your mom, to your father, who was, by the way, smitten with what you called her subtle southern charm. >> yeah, she had quiet power. she was incredibly impactful in the white house and beyond, just like her husband, the former president. she was the kindest, most patient woman i think i've ever met. >> i heard so many tributes yesterday about mrs. carter. we're going to have jonathan altar on later today, along with jon meacham and andrea mitchell. yesterday, jonathan altar said, without a doubt, the most significant first lady since eleanor roosevelt. >> absolutely. what you are looking at there are pictures of my dad, my mom, and rosalynn carter. actually, that's one of my mother's sculpture shows. you can see the relationship was charming and fun and also very serious, because she dealt with major, major issues of our time, ahead of our time, even mental health. she was a huge humanitarian, as well. she stepp in where she thought she could be helpful. >> let me just say, as we look at this picture, there's some things to, just personally from what i've heard from you and your family, she was very motherly to you. >> yeah. >> she was very supportive of your mother's art, and she was very patient with your father. >> and me. and my father, yes, absolutely. >> exactly. >> we'll have much more on her remarkable life and her impact on this country and around the world. with us, we have the host of "way too early" and white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay. assistant editor for "the washington post," david ignatius. president emeritus on the council of foreign relations, richard haass. >> also a giants fan. >> absolutely. >> you know, richard, the giants can't even, like, lose right. now is the time for them to start losing to get draft picks, and what do they do? they win. you see guys on the field, and they're celebrating. i'm going, what are you celebrating about? also, new york football, it's crazy, the jets, they figure out with two minutes left in the fourth quarter, three quarters of the way through the season, that their quarterback may not be good. >> that's the giants, yes. a time for every purpose under heaven. yesterday was a time to lose and, unfortunately, they didn't read ecclesiastes. >> exactly. >> there you go. >> we have the host of the podcast "on brand with donny deutsch." donny deutsch is with us, as well. we'll start with the top story. defense forces have released new video of what they say is a, quote, fortified terror tunnel under gaza's main hospital. troopingss began their raid, saying hamas has a complex tunnel center under the hospital. video shows a vertical shaft with a ladder that leads to a staircase, as well as a door with a small square segment that israeli officials say is a, quote, firing hole. nbc news cannot independently verify the details. the idf released footage of what it describes hamas members, quote, forcibly transporting hostages through gaza's main hospital. they say this is proof the terrorist group used the medical center the day it attacked israel. nbc news is unable to independently verify the idf's description of the video. meanwhile, israel and hamas are reportedly close to securing a deal on the release of dozens of hostages. that's according to sources familiar with the negotiations. "the washington post" reports the release could happen within the next few days. according to "the po under the terms of the deal, both parties must agree to stop fighting fort least five days. during that time, 50 or more hostages would be released in smaller batches every4 hours. >> well, and, of course, it's not a coincidence the closer israels to hamas, the more tunnels they uncover. people can go to tiktok and hear lies, but there's a reason hamas is trying to release hostages. it's because they desperately need four or five days without israel, like, tracking them down so they can escape. of course, this is the decision that will be made. if the deal can be made, it'll be made. make no mistake, they're only making that deal because israel has pressed far more than they ever expected them to. >> joining us from tel-aviv, nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons with more on this. keir, obviously, there is such an extreme hope upon hope to get hostages home, too, which is the friction here. >> reporter: yeah. i mean, i just spoke to a mother here. one daughter, 8. one daughter, 15. she says that she's now waited 45 days. if israel and hamas aren't going to release them or find a way to get them free, she'll just go to gaza herself, she says. clearly, that's not going to be possible, you would think. but that's how desperate she is. it is a terrible, terrible situation. the officials that i talked to with knowledge of the talks talk about inching towards a deal, but i think that it is important to just caveat that. i've spoke to them many times over many weeks, to caveat that. for example, when the talk is about, you know, now we're down to scheduling, just what happens when, i mean, it's a big deal in a deal. when are hostages released? how many? when does the aid come in? as well as other things, like, for example, one aspect of those talks, hamas asking, calling, demanding that palestinian prisoners be released by israel. which of those prisoners? we've met women and children or more. all of those things. you know, the reality is, with this deal, it's not done until it's done. that's what officials that i speak to will say. that's partly because they've seen things collapse on multiple occasions in the past, including, you know, 24 hours before the ground invasion began, there were real hopes that there would be a breakthrough. ultimately, i don't think israel really felt satisfied that it was being given a clear picture of how many hostages would be released. then, of course, there will be the internal debates in the israeli government over the question of some saying, go ahead and do the ground invasion. let's not pause. all of these aspects mean that, you know, it's kind of a mixed picture. on the one hand, these talks, many sides say the talks look positive. on the other hand, saying, you know, it's not done until it's done. then the question of the al shifa hospital and what's happening there. i think part of this is about the language. of course, so much is about language and about perception. ultimately, what israel talked about prior to this, about an extensive headquarters under al shifa hospital, putting out an illustration of what the headquarters might look like. inevitably, people are going to compare what israel finds with what it said. even if it said it was an illustration. listen to the deputy national security talking on "meet the press" yesterday. >> the qatari prime minister said the actions at the hospital are a, quote, crime. does the white house stand by israel's assessment that hamas is headquartered underneath the hospital? and are you confident israel is following international law? >> our intelligence, u.s. intelligence information, not just israeli intelligence information, suggests that hamas has used al shifa in unconscionable way as a command and control facility for the planning and execution of terrorist attacks and continues to do so. that does not, in our view, mean that israel should conduct air strikes on the hospital or ground assaults on the hospital. we've been equally clear on that. but hamas has put these people in severe jeopardy by the way they're conducting this war. >> reporter: command and control facility doesn't sound quite like -- secretary blinken talked about a command and control node, doesn't quite sound like the israeli's idea after on extensive headquarters. we shall see. to quickly finish, there are 31 babies now in southern gaza who have been evacuated safely from al shifa. some of those babies died because they say there is contaminated water and hypothermia. the question of what was at al shifa, isshifa, in terms of hamas is important. >> keir simmons, thank you so much. you think of babies being held, injured, and you don't know how old they can last. there is such a pressure to fight out how to get the hostages home. >> there is a pressure to figure out how to get the hostages home, and also a growing realization, as david ignatius wrote in his latest piece, a growing realization that israel may be winning the war on the ground, but they are losing the information war. obviously, as we move into the new phase, it is something they have to be, and i think they are, they have to be more cognisant of. the question that david, that richard, that the smartest minds in foreign policy said at the start of the war is, the war must be conducted with an eye to what happens after the war. as david said, the day after the war. well, david, you said in your recent piece that the israelis don't know what that looks like. i want to play you a clip that went viral and got picked up. it is bill clinton from hillary clinton's 2016 presidential campaign. it is spreading on social media right now. this is the former president speaking at a campaign event for his wife in new jersey. a crowd member yelled, "what about gaza?" this is what bill clinton said regarding his record on the israel-palestinian conflict. >> i killed myself to give the palestinians a state. i had a deal they turned down that would have given them all of gaza -- [ applause ] wait, wait. all of gaza, between 96% and 97% of the west bank, compensating land in israel, you name it. then, when mr. fiad was the prime minister of the palestinians on the west bank, we had all the muslim countries willing to normalize relations with israel if they'd recognize the palestinian state. did i agree with the israeli policy? no. my whole life i did that. >> wow. >> david, therein, and nobody understands this on tiktok, obviously, nobody has this context. i bring it up for a good reason. if you're the israelis and you look at what happens the day after, how you bring peace to the land, how you bring security to the land, you look at the fact that, through the years, the palestinians said no to every peace deal, including what bill clinton was saying in 2000, when you're talking about all of gaza, 97% of the west bank, some land in israel to compensate for the land not in the west bank, a capital in east jerusalem, on and on and on and on. i guess my question back to you is, what could israel look like the day after this war is over? how do we get to a two-state solution when the palestinians have been given everything they asked for in the past and said no? >> well, joe, i certainly think the palestinians have been foolish, have squandered their opportunities for peace, for having a state of their own, multiple deals, the ones clinton talks about and many others that have been presented to them. i think what we've seen in this terrible gaza war is that this problem doesn't go away. it is in israel's interest, even at a time when israelis have lost faith in a palestinian partner in peace, to find some way, using israel's new friends in the arab world, and it's a growing list. probably includes saudi arabia in addition to the uae, egypt, jordan. use the countries to help build a different kind of governance in gaza and the west bank. post hamas, israel is going to destroy hamas. anybody who has watched hamas' actions since they took power in 2006/2007 say they've done nothing for gaza except prepare for war. post hamas governance in gaza. a different, revitalized palestinian authority in the west bank, aided by these key arab countries. maybe over several years produces something more stable. it has to be demilitarized. the israelis can't cower in fear again the way they did on october 7. that's over. that's not going to happen. i just felt, after spending a week in israel, it's time for israel to focus more on these day after issues and humanitarian issues. not simply because it's the right thing to do morally, which i think it is. but it is important for the operational plans that they have. losing an information war makes it hard to win the war on the ground. you're constantly answering questions. what about that video? where are the weapons? it is in israel's interest to be seen, to be trying to take palestinians who probably don't support hamas after this. they've been furious, what they've been led into. help them begin to build better lives. over time, it'll take a couple of years, different kind of governance. i concluded my long piece yesterday, joe, saying this is too tough for israel to do right now. it is too tough for the palestinians. the united states as a friend of israel needs to help them think about how to build something new. that's our job. people may not want to listen to us at first, but i admire biden forraising this and coming back to the palestinian state. it's the only way to avoid endless run of these wars. >> there was some reporting a deal was done for the hostage release in exchange for a pause, but the white house strongly pushed back against that. said it's close but nothing official yet. there are debates in the israeli knesset, whether they want to go forth with that. we heard from deputy national security adviser finer over the weekend. though support for israel, some -- he's trying to walk a fine line and push back against the israeli tactics in the operation. with that as the backdrop, let's put the question to you, which david answered, are you seeing encouraging signs from israel that they are thinking about after the war, thinking about the day after, and are taking any steps to prepare for it? >> short answer is no. a rule of thumb, united states learned in iraq, think about how you end a war before you start a war. there is zero enthusiasm in the arab world for anybody playing a world, zero enthuiasm in the u.n., and i'll go beyond that. who are the israelis talking to? essentially, hamas right now, through qatar, so the question is, does this hamas totally get eliminated? i doubt it. even if they're dramatically reduced as a fighting force, i think politically, that kind of radical organization, whatever you call it, even by another name, is still going to have a role in gaza. so, no, i don't think the israelis have thought it through. how you create a governing authority. the only way to do it, and it gets back to the previous conversation david was having, is you have to create momentum or change the context. begin to move toward a palestinian process that has hope. this is prenegotiations. maybe it's pre-prenegotiations, but you have to start a process so there is ultimately an alternative to palestinians who basically are committed to trying to destroy israel, killing jews and all that. the israelis haven't embarked on that. by the way, it's not clear this is something they can. there is a split in the israeli government, jonathan. they're not in the right zip code when it comes to thinking about the day after. >> yeah, let me ask really quickly, jump in here quickly. for david or richard, how long does netanyahu survive? does the israelis understand? i know he is unpopular there. do they understand that these images take on an even more grim tone across the world because netanyahu is running israel right now? >> joe, two ways to get rid of a prime minister, one is elections and another is a parliamentary reshuffling. you're not having elections in the middle of this. could you have a reshuffling? odds are against it. what's going to happen, probably after a pause, if there is a hostage deal, you'll probably see an intensification of israeli strikes in the south. the problem is, you not only have hamas largely in the south of gaza, you have most of the people of gaza in the south there. what you're going to see is more civilian casualties. there will be a greater sense of crisis. i just don't think at that moment, given october 7th, given the sense of crisis, israelis are going to change forces midstream. none of the investigations on october 7th are going to be able to get under way or gain traction. i think bibi netanyahu is going to be prime minister probably for longer than is good for israel or the united states. >> let me just jump in, rarely do i disagree with richard, but i do on this. i think when the war ends, bibi is gone. in a week in israel, i couldn't find people on the right, on the left who were willing to speak up for him. there's a sense his polarizing politics in the year before this war broke out, trying to keep his unwielding coalition together by making demands on behalf of his right-wing supporters weakened the nation. one former prime minister, naptali bennett, not speaking about bibi by name, but generally said, bibi's tactics left israel so weak that its enemies finally saw that it was vulnerable, then they attacked. i think that feeling is widespread in israel. i think there's a desire for new leadership. there's talk about who else? the polls are very clear that bibi lags far behind gantz, his coalition partner. i think a change is coming, and i think a lot of israelis do hold him responsible for the country coming into war so unprepared. >> donny, images are so important, of course. you know this particularly. they've become very important in this war. people are focused on the images out of gaza, and there are terrible pictures of babies being killed. you know, the concern must be about what that does to future generations of palestinians. r and how they feel about israel and what they're prepared to do to fight israel. but the israeli government is trying to remind the world about what happened on october 7th. as time moves on, they're afraid that people are looking at gaza and the situation there and not remembering what happened on october 7th. i know you've had an opportunity to see some of that video from the attack on october 7th. who is showing you what, and what did you see? >> 47 minutes of raw footage i was able to see, put together by the israeli defense forces. they're not making it available to the public out of respect to the families of the victims. it was 47 minutes of raw footage of basically, taken from the jihadist, the hamas body cameras, as they were doing the slaughter. it was surveillance footage, first responder footage. i can't unsee it. if you saw this, everybody marching in this country should see this footage. the heinousness of it. seeing the bodies of children, beheaded bodies, burnt bodies. seeing somebody taking a garden hoe and trying to behead a body. what was most frightening was the glee on the terrorists, on the jihadists as they did this. the jubilation, the rapture as they committed this heinous slaughter, that was so frightening. what hit me as they screamed, god is great as they killed. someone mentioned this last week. there was an audio of a terrorist who had just killed a husband and wife, and he was on the phone screaming, "i just killed jews with my bare hands. god is great!" what hit me, also, watching this, it wasn't just jews. this was an attack on western civilization. this is a jihad. this is no different than what happened -- their september 11th is our october 7th also. this would happen here, also. this was the same jihadists. it had nothing to do with the two-state solution. this was pure slaughter. and the joy of these jihadists, if everybody could see it here, they might see things a little bit differently. >> well, david ignatius, there, of course, is what hangs over the israeli people. everybody knows somebody who has been touched and affected by this. again, the specifics that donny talked about, just so graphic, so heinous, and a complete celebration, again, from an organization that ran gaza since 2006/2007, whose stated goal is to destroy the state of israel and to kill jews. >> like donny, i saw this film, 45 minutes or so. an israeli said to me, we can't get these images out of our finds. we lose sleep over them. i felt being asked to watch this, maybe donny did, too, members of congress have watched the footage, the israelis would like the head of every arab country bordering israel to watch this footage. but i felt the israelis want all of us to lose sleep, too, just as they have. seeing these images. this is the worst face of what human beings can do. there's no real way to say it other than that. as donny said, it is like a high school football game where people are jumping up and down, so excited, and just having murdered a dozen people. it's hard to watch that. i think israel wants to keep those images alive in people's minds, even as we're watching -- you know, palestinian mothers love their children as much as israeli mothers do. the images from gaza are heartrending. i think israelis just want us to remember what started this. the day it started, the emotions that triggered it, and all the other suffering which is real and we should care about, as well. >> david is so right, mika. how can you as a human being not be heartbroken by reading the piece in "the new york times" yesterday, looking at the image s and hearing what's happening. also understanding the day of the attacks, and we talked about it, the day of the attacks, that hamas knew exactly what they were doing. they were slaughtering israelis, raping israelis, burning israelis. they were killing jews. they were ectatic over how graphic and how heinous and brutal the murders were. we said it that day, they then were going to run back to gaza and use the palestinian people as human shields. think about that. not only did they commit acts of terror against the israeli people, against jews, but they knew they were going to be committing acts of terror against a palestinian people because they were going to use palestinian children, palestinian mothers, palestinian grandmothers. they were going to use the people of gaza as their human shields. they knew the world would rightfully rise up and be heartbroken the images they saw. that's exactly what hamas wanted. >> it was their plan. >> part of their plan. not all palestinian blood is equal, they've been saying. for the thousands and thousands of palestinians that were tortured, killed, imprisoned, slaughtered by assad, no protests, none. none. when the jews try to defend themselves, it's on the front page of the papers all over the world. again, it is absolutely heinous. but hamas used the cynicism of the west, of people who hate israel. they knew they could use the cynicism of the arab states. they knew they could use the cynicism of those who hate, as donny said, the west. and they've done it. they've seen it unfold. this is exactly what we said was going to happen. all part of hamas' plan. now, the same thing with the hostage negotiations. if you don't think hamas isn't negotiating now, desperate to get a deal, desperate to get a pause, desperate to get the israeli army off their backs. if you don't think that's not why they're negotiating now and moving toward the deal, well, you never saw any of this coming. >> david ignatius, thank you very much for being on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," we have a lot more to get to this morning. for the first time ever, nbc news polling has president joe biden losing to donald trump in a hypothetical general election matchup. we'll dig into those new numbers. plus, an appeals court this morning will hear arguments on whether to reinstate a gag order against donald trump in the federal case charging him with plotting to overturn the 2020 election. >> by the way, i mean, they said donald trump led an insurrection against the united states government. also said, oh, yeah, he can be on the ballot. >> we'll have live reporting from the courthouse in washington. and we'll have an update on a potential trial date for the election interference case in georgia. also ahead, we are remembering the life and remarkable legacy of former first lady rosalyn carter, who passed away yesterday. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. whenever you're hungry, there's a deal on the subway app. buy one footlong, get one 50% off in the subway app today. now that's a deal worth celebrating. man, what are you doing?! get it before it's gone on the subway 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(we did it) start today at godaddy.com sleep more deeply. and wake up rejuvenated. purple mattresses exclusive gel flex grid draws away heat relieves pressure and instantly adapts. sleep better. live purple. right now save up to $900 off mattress sets during purple's black friday sale. visit purple.com or a store near you today. hey, doc, quick question. purple's blokay?riday sale. if you had to choose, would you give yourself a root canal or run payroll? run payroll, no question. you know how tough payroll can be, right? no. we switched to gusto, and paying my team couldn't be easier. gusto gives me unlimited payroll runs, next day direct deposits, and automatically files my taxes. ooh, taxes! sounds like you know the drill. good one! can i run payroll too? sure, after this. choose payroll without the pain. that's working with gusto. morning, we're remembering the life and legacy of former first lady rosalynn carter. yesterday, when the sad news broke, i couldn't help but be amused by an ed luce tweet. >> oh, yeah. >> ed, of course, writing your father's biography right now. this is what ed got from your father's diary, from january 1977. "rosalynn was very" -- this is dr. brzezinski writing. "rosalynn was very nice to me and asked amy to play, and went to look for mika when she didn't show up for lunch." from dr. brzezinski about their respective 9-year-old girls at saint simon's island. >> we disappeared. >> always said, she was very motherly, very sweet. >> incredibly so. >> would wipe chocolate from your face with great regularity. >> she was remarkable and kind and warm and incredibly patient. i actually have my dad's book which really has a lot of his diaries in it, "powers and prin principle." i have nice stories i'll share in a moment. first, nbc "nightly news" anchor lester holt reports on her life and legacy. >> it's now my pleasure to introduce someone whom i love and respect and cherish, my wife, rosalynn. [ applause ] >> reporter: she was jimmy carter's partner, best friend, and closest adviser in and out of the white house from more than three quarters of a century. soft spoken, politically savvy, and fiercely determined, rosalynn carter was known as the steel magnolia. she made the role of first lady her own. born rosalynn smith in plains, georgia, she was a neighbor to jimmy carter, three nears her senior. >> i was shy. found out he was so easy to talk to. we just kind of hit it off really well, and i think i was already in love with him. >> reporter: they mare married when she was 18. >> i was earning a living as aj family warm, and rosalynn managed the business. they rose a family, three sons and, later, daughter amy. jimmy was governor in 1970. running for president with rosalynn's enthusiastic support. >> people got to know him. when they knew him, they vote for him. >> thank you, both, very much. >> she's completely objective and unbiased. >> i love politics. >> reporter: the small town girl with a poor family who had never finished college thrived on the national stage. >> every day i see things i think i could help with. things i want to learn more about. >> reporter: jimmy carter won the election with rosalynn playing a key role. >> i was involved with the selection of the vice president. >> reporter: she was front and center from the start, attending cabinet meetings, leading on policy issues, including mental health. becoming the first first lady since eleanor roosevelt to testify before congress. >> i am here as a concerned citizen. there are so many opportunities. if i don't use the influence i have to help those people who need help, i think that's a terrible waste. >> reporter: she served as president carter's emissary, taking high-profile trips to latin america and asia. >> i think that i am the person closest to the president of the united states, and if i can help him in understanding the countries of the world, that's what i intend to do. >> reporter: often more popular than the president himself, she was his advocate in chief. >> i'm proud of jimmy carter and the job he is doing, and he is without a doubt the best person in our country to see us through these times. >> reporter: but faced with a troubled economy and a painful hostage crisis, carter lost to ronald reagan in 1980. the carters returned to plains. they founded the carter center and, together, began a remarkable decades long post-presidency, devoted to human rights, international diplomacy, eradicating disease, and, year after year, building low-income housing with habitat for humanity. in 1999, they were awarded the presidential medal of freedom. >> i think now is one of the happiest times of my life. there is life after the white house. >> reporter: through it all, she remained her husband's greatest champion. >> it irritates me when people say he's a good former president. he was a good president. i don't worry about his place in history. >> reporter: as for her own place in history, rosalynn carter was characteristically modest. >> i just hope people think i did the best i could. >> joining us now, nbc news chief foreign affairs correspondent and host of "andrea mitchell reports," andrea mitchell. rogers chair and the american presidency at vanderbilt university, historian jon meacham. and award winning historian, columnist, and writer, jonathan alter. he is the author of the book, "his very best, jimmy carter, a life." >> of course, that would apply too, jonathan, to rosalyn cart e -- rosalynn carter, would it not? she gave her very best at all times. it was wonderful to hear this girl who grew up poor in rural georgia talking about how she loved politics. how she loved being part of making the world a better place. >> absolutely. this is an epic american story. you know, they were married for 77 years, but they actually met each other 96 years ago. shortly after rosalynn carter was born. she had been delivered by lillian carter, jimmy's mother, who was a nurse. ms. lillian brought her toddler around to see the new baby. this was an extraordinary partnership that i think took her into the first ranks of first ladies in the whole history of this country. we could talk all day about her substantiveaccomplishments, but to focus on one, she was the greatest champion of mental health that we've seen. >> mm-hmm. >> she did more than anyone to end the stigma that was attached to mental illness, until really the 1970s and '80s, when she got active in this issue. there are just a number of substantive accomplishments that have been completely neglected by history. also, just her personal qualities. you know, i interviewed more than 250 people for my book. many of them had some critical things to say about jimmy carter. i never heard a single word of criticism of rosalynn carter, who had a superior political intelligence to her husband. he was the first to admit. also, a grace that touched everyone she met. >> yeah. her approach really masked, in a way, her incredible power and strength. i think that was the secret sauce, among many. i went through some old pictures and also my father's book, "power and principle," which has his diaries from the white house that he goes through. i'll just read. "carter once said something quite revealing. that while he would reassess over time his view of a person and often revise it quite drastically, for rosalynn, her first impression was decisive. it never altered." he talks about walking into an empty theater at the white house and seeing them holding hands alone in the theater, watching a movie. he said, "carter also told me, every evening, the two would read jointly a chapter from the bible. typical of his unending quest of self-improvement. during the first year of the presidency, they did so in spanish, so that they could enhance their mastery of that language." >> yeah. >> finally, "rosalynn could be as tough as she was charming and gracious. she gave the white house both grace and warmth and did so without flaunting either status or power or, as lately as has been the case, wealth. for carter, she was a tower of strength, a source of serene affection, and of good judgment." just to give you a sense of her importance, in this book, the beginning of it has all the key players. it's called "relating to key players in the top team of the white house." before you get to walter mondale, cyrus vance, harold brown, is rosalynn carter. my father was the first national security adviser to have cabinet level status. rosalynn carter sat in on cabinet meetings. >> andrea, i mean, i'm old enough to remember that that caused quite a stir. years before hillary clinton caused quite a stir as a first lady, rosalynn carter, being such a strong force in the president's life, was -- i mean, it was really the first time since eleanor roosevelt that a first lady played such a prominent role. >> exactly. and she actually played a bigger role in that white house than eleanor did because her relationship with jimmy carter was so passionate, so personal, so equal, in a way that eleanor roosevelt's never was with fdr. we know about the problems in their marriage, as well. rosalynn carter really established the office of the first lady. it became a budgeted office, an official office, even though other first ladies had done many positive things for it. she was such a path breaker. my first interview with her was actually on labor day 1978. i was new to nbc. it was my first trip to andrews air force base. i was very excited. i had been at nbc maybe a month. she was filling in for jimmy carter on a political trip on labor day, campaigning in texas for a democratic senator or candidate for senate. so i did an interview with her for the "today" show, exactly, you know -- we taped it sunday night for a monday morning labor day interview. i remember how intimidated i was and how comfortable she made me. she was so kind and generous. i ended up being the backup correspondent as the new kid on the block, going to plains for christmas, thanksgiving, and all the holidays, you know, backing up the lead correspondents, judy woodruff and the great, late john palmer. we had quite a team. i just admired her so much. she supported the equal rights amendment. she was forceful. in 1977, their first year in the white house, she went on a trip, a diplomatic trip to latin america. it was 12,000 miles, seven countries, 13 days. she was talking to the leaders there about nuclear energy, agricultural exports, all kinds of diplomatic issues. that was part of her arena. i mean, she was just extraordinary. >> yeah. >> remarkable. >> she really was. you know, jon meacham, hearing her quote in the lester holt package, talking about how she got irritated when people said that he was a good former president. he was a good president. i know that she was deeply wounded, as was jimmy carter, by the 1980 loss. as is often the case, it certainly was the case with harry truman, the assessment of jimmy carter, of course, grows by the year. we look back, especially now, and recognize what he did. middle east peace. a middle east peace breakthrough, the first really and the most significant. opened relations with china. changed the world. championed human rights in a way no american president had ever done, while beginning at the end of his presidency the military ramp-up that, along with the championing of human rights, was something that, along with reagan, helped lead to the downfall of the soviet union. historians, no doubt, will be much kinder to jimmy carter and, of course, rosalynn than the voters were in 1980. >> yeah. john alter has started this conversation brilliantly in his book. one of the things the carters' living legacy shows us is that history and headlines do not always move in tandem. what's important in retrospect is often controversial or ignored in real time. i think the carters' experience in the white house is something that should teach us. that instant, reflexive reactions to everything that happens, every minute of every day, might just be wrong in the long term. you know, as howard baker, who helped president carter with the panama canal treaty, much to the chagrin of those in tennessee once said, there might be a possibility the other fella might be right. that's a legacy of the carters. the other thing is, i think we should perhaps -- there's been a lot of talk about, obviously, mrs. roosevelt and mrs. carter. i wonder, and, again, john knows this better than i do, i've always thought of mrs. ford and mrs. carter in the kind of bracket. in that tumultuous decade when the culture was changing so rapidly in the 1970s, mrs. ford helps reduce the stigma with breast cancer. mrs. carter with mental health. there was this -- and they're very different women, different parties. their husbands ran against each other, but a kind of common humanity. a reminder that -- and particularly the unfolding ford/carter friendship, which was a little like the bill clinton and george h.w. bush one, a reminder that there has been a moment 20 minutes ago in american politics where not every political issue had to be an occasion for total war. that there could be disagreement without there being disunion. and i think that's something else to think about for a moment or two this week, as she's commemorated. >> jonathan alter, we will give you the last word here. what else should we all be keeping in mind about the life and legacy of mrs. carter? >> well, you know, after rosalynn carter left the white house, she founded something called the center for caregiving. now, every person in the world is either a caregiver, going to be a caregiver, or is going to need the care of a friend or relative. but the concept didn't really exist until the 1980s. she has done a lot, not just to destigmatize mental illness, but to create an appreciation of the importance of caregiving. then there are a series of other accomplishments. she got 33 states to require vaccination for children to enter schools, which contributed greatly to public health in the united states. i just want to end by reemphasizing jon meacham's point. historians look at these figures in a different way than journalists do. as a journalist, i wonder how popular is somebody in their own time? historians need to look at how they changed this country and the world. by that standard, rosalynn carter and jimmy carter stack up very well. >> jonathan alter, andrea mitchell, and jon meacham, thank you, all, so much for joining us this morning and helping us remember this remarkable woman. >> yeah. all right. still ahead on "morning joe," president biden and his team are facing calls to become more active and aggressive in highlighting the contrast between him and donald trump. will it be enough to ease anxiety among democrats? "the washington post"'s ashley parker joins us with her reporting. we'll talk to donny deutsch to get his take on what the strategy needs to be for the campaign. also ahead, two of the stars of the broadway revival of the musical "monte python spamalot" will be our guests this morning. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up, i've got symptom relief. ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements. skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. and the majority of people experienced long-lasting remission at one year. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. ♪ now's the time to ask your gastroenterologist how you can take control of your crohn's with skyrizi. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ get it with gurus. cargurus. hi, my name is damion clark. if you have both medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all of these plans include a healthy options allowance, a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month. and whatever you don't spend, carries over from each month. other benefits on these plans include free rides to and from your medical appointments. and our large networks of doctors, hospitals and pharmacies. so, call the number on your screen now and ask about a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. humana. a more human way to healthcare. the power goes out and we still have wifi to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. home of the xfinity 10g network. after president biden's successful meeting with xi jinping, reporters asked if biden believed xi was a dictator. i don't know if biden was supposed to say yesterday. look at this reaction from secretary of state antony blinken. >> is president xi still a dictator, a term you used earlier in the year? >> look, he is. >> oh, man. that's the same face i make when my uncle starts a story by mentioning the race of the waitress. it's actually the same -- it's actually the same face i made when i heard biden say this about ll cool j. >> l.l. j cool j, ah, by the way, that boy's got -- that man has biceps bigger than my thighs. [ laughter ] >> llj cool j? i think the second "j" stands for jesus. >> that's pretty good. we can have fun. >> by the way, happy birthday. >> happy birthday, mr. president. >> president biden. >> yes. we'll take advantage of the day to talk about the one thing that's wrong. >> seriously, i mean, you look at how old he is. if you remember, just look back through history, just recent history, when warren buffett turned 81, remember everybody, they pulled all their money out of berkshire hathaway. >> no, i don't think so. >> they -- >> he turned 81, like, 12 years ago. >> a dozen years ago. oh, wait, i think he's had hiss most successful decade ever. >> oh, okay, there you go. >> but, look, that's fine. let's take politics. nancy pelosi, you know -- >> exactly. she's 82. >> 83. no, she was really successful. huh, okay. >> oh, donald trump. >> fascinating. >> anyhow -- >> well, donald trump is, like -- if donald trump were elected next year, well, of course, that'd end democracy, but, also, he would be the oldest president ever elected. >> yeah. >> i'm a little worried about him up there. he still doesn't know who he is running against. >> sweats a lot. >> if you heard him this weekend, jonathan lemire, it's not getting better. he thinks he is running against barack obama. he gets confused and rattled. you know, he talks about how joe biden can lead us into world war ii. very dazed and confused up there sometimes. man, i'm worried about his age. i know you are, too. i mean, you have to be worried about his age. the fact that he's running against a president he thinks hasn't run for office in over a decade. >> yeah, last time barack obama was in a bout was 2012, of course. i checked the history books. world war ii happened, and we won. good news there. >> we won? good! >> it was pretty exciting. >> okay. >> that was exciting stuff. >> i also -- lemire, i believe you can add a decade for every indictment due to stress. >> probably so. >> to that, there have been people in trump's world who acknowledge freely, but privately, that trump is feeling the pressure of all of these indictments. how can we blame him? there are four indictments and 91 counts, so it is fairly understandable. that's not counting the new york civil case which threatens his fortune. we have certainly seen his behavior grow more erratic of late. finally, some of his republican rivals have highlighted it. governor desantis, in particular. yes, at least to this point, polling shows, and maybe this will change, but at least at this moment in time, at this moment in time, voters don't seem as concerned about trump's age as biden's. >> well, they will when he actually is out on the campaign trail. >> that's a good point, joe. like, most voters haven't really listened to donald trump in a long time. it might not be until next year. when they start doing so again, they'll have the same concerns. >> man, i'm very concerned. you know, he's got to be very, very nervous and upset because, at his advanced age, you have 91 counts against you. at that advanced stage -- >> life sentence. >> just one of those counts at his advanced stage is a life sentence. >> exactly. >> i think we should be understanding that he gets so confused and dottering on stage and keeps thinking he is running against a guy that hasn't run for president in 11 years. >> it's not even the federal indictments. there's the civil suit in new york which paralyzed his business and could end it forever. there's that. >> yeah. >> by the way, ashley parker is going to join us with the latest on one of these many cases against the former president. but the current president has been in two active war zones in the past year, including kyiv. defense secretary lloyd austin arrived this morning in a surprise visit to kyiv, ukraine. austin is scheduled for a series of meetings with senior ukrainian leaders, aimed at reinforcing u.s. support for the country's war effort. richard haass, you co-wrote a new piece this morning for "foreign affairs" entitled, "a new strategy must balance means and ends." explain your concern, especially as the white house is managing wars on two completely different fronts. >> mika, the white house is managing two wars, but in both of them, i would say we're increasingly at odds with our allies and partners. we just talked the previous hour about differences with israel. about how the war is being fought and about what comes after. in ukraine, i think we've got a real problem where there's simply an enormous gap between what the goals are of the policy and what the realities are. the idea that ukraine is going to militarily liberate all the land that russia occupies, approximately 20% of their territory, it's laudable. i support it. it's just not going to happen. >> and, richard, the white house, i mean, the pentagon a year ago, in february, was saying pretty much the same thing. i mean, we heard about a spring offensive. they were very, very concerned in february, in february of this year, that these lines were going to be frozen in place, much like world war lines throughout europe. the question is, with wars on two fronts, how long do we, how long do our allies in europe who have all done, i think, together, nato has done an extraordinary job, how much longer do we continue pushing, i think, what many people in the pentagon would think is the unrealistic goal of ukraine driving every last russian out of their country? >> it's exactly the right question, joe. what concerns me is when people get disillusioned and increasingly come to the -- where you and i are. as desirable as it is, it's simply not feasible. they're going to increasingly say, and we're hearing it in the house, we're hearing it in parts of europe, why should we keep doing this? we're stressed. we're trying to support israel. we're worried about taiwan. even if we give everything we need to give or want to give to ukraine, it still won't lead to success. what i argue, therefore, is the united states needs to have some very direct conversations with ukraine, with president zelenskyy. talk about reduing their emphasis on liberating land and put emphasis onto holding what they've got. in the long run, diplomatically through sanctions, yes, we can try to see the rest of their territory returned. for right now, let's have 80% of this country saved, 80% of this country rebuilt. i would actually propose a cease-fire as an interim arrangement to expose the russians for what they are, so we can rebuild support for ukraine in this country. but we've had two fighting seasons. the idea that one or two or three more years of this is going to result in success, i simply don't see it. russia is on a war footing. they have access also to arms from north korea and iran. i just think, yeah, any time in foreign policy, any time in life there is a big gap between what you're trying to do and your ability to do it, you've either got to increase your means or lower your goals. i think here, the only realistic option as a tactical measure, is to lower our goals. >> well, you know, katty, the situation is often fluid, has been fluid in ukraine for quite some time. we're at a new stage. just like we talked about after october 7th, that war was going to go in stages. the ukrainian war has gone in stages. now, russia is dug in defensively. they're not having generals run up to the line so snipers can take them out. they're not exposing themselves to ariel bombardment. they are dug in. in a defensive posture. that has made all the difference in how quickly or how slowly those lines are moving. >> yeah. russians had enough time, as ukraine was preparing this offensive, to build those defensive lines with trenches and land mines and making it very difficult for the ukrainians to push through. i was told recently that the ukrainians have only taken back 0.25% of the land that russia took in the east of the country. that is nothing. clearly, not nearly enough to persuade policymakers up on capitol hill that it is worth carrying on funding them. the europeans are matching the americans when it comes to military spending on ukraine, but they wouldn't be able to pick up all of the slack. i guess the only question with what you're proposing, richard, is would that then look like victory for vladimir putin? i mean, effectively, he'll be able to sell that, and he will sell that as victory back at home. even if we step back with a more objective eye and think, okay, so they didn't take kyiv, but they took a big chunk of the country in the east, and was this an indication that the russians actually won, effectively? >> i don't think so. look where russia started. they wanted to basically eliminate ukraine as a sovereign, independent, western-oriented democracy. they've totally failed. part of what i would recommend is ukraine going into the european union, ukraine getting security guarantees from the united states and other nato members. ukraine could then, you know, again, get rebuilt. it could be a stark reminder that there's a different future for slavs, other than the athor authoritarian russia. the sanctions would remain in place. the diplomatic isolation would remain in place. that has to be a long-term proposition. again, i don't think it is a victory for russia. i think the fact that ukraine is saved, it's viable. two years ago, katty, none of us thought ukraine would be where it is today. this has been a fantastic accomplishment, a real tribute to ukraine, to nato, to the united states, to the biden administration. i think it's -- two years ago, if we'd had this conversation, you would have taken this outcome and said, that would be a fantastic success. we should lock it in and keep open the long term. >> richard, i mean, think about it. just think about it. for 20 years, vladimir putin has made no secret of the fact that he wanted to swallow ukraine whole and bring it back into this greater russian state. he saw the capturing of kyiv and odessa, two historical capitals of the old russian empire, as his manifest destiny. now, look what's happened over the past few years, as you said. nato has grown stronger than it's ever been. picked up, what, 600, 800 new miles of border along russia. the baltic sea is now, as admiral stavridis says, basically a nato lake. you look at the fact that with a peace deal, you will have ukraine and you will have kyiv facing westward. they will become part of the west without the specter of a russian invasion in the future if this deal is done correctly. it can be done directly. that, as you said, richard, is something we would all have taken two years ago. couple that with the fact that the ukrainians have so degraded russia's army that they've set the russian military machine back decades. >> all that and also sent a powerful message to china. the use of force can be a risky operation. what your generals tell you may not be the truth. the sanctions could be ruinous. actually, ukraine has not only done a lot for itself and the security of europe but a lot for taiwan and the security of asia. this has an extraordinarily accomplishment. 80% is not everything, but this is, again, sometimes you've got to take what you've got. in this case, i'm not giving up. to be clear, joe, no one is giving up on ukraine becoming in tact, i just don't think military liberation is a realistic way to go, given the balance between the two countries. >> and president biden has an op-ed in "the washington post" explaining why you simply can't back down from vladimir putin and hamas. we'll read from that in a little bit. richard haass, thank you very much. also, new polling from -- having said all that, new polling from nbc news has donald trump ahead of president biden by two points, 46% to 44%. >> excuse me one second, i've got to yawn. hold on one second. >> you're yawning? i know. this is a pattern. >> this is the end of the world according to democrats! let's say it, according to david axelrod who, by the way, said biden was toast several times in 2020, this is the end of the world. according to democrats in washington, they need to take a deep breath. >> notable in the poll is biden's drop in support from young voters after winning that group by more than 20 points in 20. the latest poll shows voters actually prefer trump to biden now, 46% to 42%. >> yeah, and anybody who believes that that will be the numbers on election day in 2024, i mean, seriously, not even close. >>his comes as 70% of 18 to 29-year-olds say they disapprove of biden's handling of the israel-hamas war. joining the conversation now, we have former u.s. senator, now an nbc news and msnbc political analyst, claire mccaskill. president of the national action network and host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. and senior national political correspondent for "the washington post," ashley parker. jonathan lemire, donny deutsch, and katty kay are all still with us, as well. >> claire mccaskill, the discussion i'm hearing now reminds me of the discussion i had with a senior trump adviser in, what was it, actually, it was 2020. in 2020. this senior adviser was telling me, and showed me all the numbers, "look, we have the numbers. donald trump is going to get 22% of black voters. he's going to get 40% of hispanic voters. nevada is in the books. we've won it already. new mexico, the numbers that we're driving right now, we're going to win new mexico." i mean, so excuse me while i yawn, while democrats left and right, who let's just say it, democrats who have kicked joe biden around for decades, who kicked him around when he was vice president of the united states, those same democrats are now coming -- oh, by the way, democrats who said he was toast in 2020 after iowa and new hampshire. now, they're saying he's toast again. claire, why should i not be surprised that, once again, joe biden is being underestimated? >> well, it's the story of his career. it's what he has encountered pretty much every step of the way. listen, there's one thing these polls are good for, and that is making sure that nobody in the biden campaign takes any segment of our vote for granted. >> amen. >> there is absolutely a need to do more and do better and cover the ground more thoroughly in black and brown voters' houses all over this country. they know what's at stake. even the young voters, they know what's at stake. they know about dobbs. they know about our military style weapons that are slaughtering children sitting in classrooms. they know that they're banning books and trying to look down their nose at americans who are gay and married in this country. they're not going to stand for that. they know that the republican party thinks climate change is a hoax. it's just a matter of making sure that the campaign prioritizes the communication of those communities. i think they've got that. and i think what's hard about it, though, joe, admit, we see s so completely unacceptable. a mentally deranged, narcissistic, dangerous, horrible man that only knows selfishness, the idea that anybody would be voting for him freaks all of us out. so the fact that there are this many that are saying it out loud to somebody, even though it is anonymously, is enough to make your stomach hurt. >> well, you know, the thing is, reality is, people aren't focused on this campaign, on what donald trump is saying, on what donald trump is doing the way we are. the overwhelming majority of people. i know, claire, let me go back to you for a second here. i'm sure because you ran as a senator, you had a lot more money, so you could spread that money out. i would tell you that i would have people running around my campaign every two years, "we're going to lose! we've got to start spending the money." i go, "eh, eh, it's august. eh, it's september. they're more interested in high school football." you know, i would always say, "people don't really focus in a really intense way until they're about two, three weeks away from voting." now, that is not to say that the biden campaign doesn't need to start right now, like you said, hammering in these areas. >> on contrasts. >> but these polls, you've run, you've been on the ballot several times. i've been on the ballot four times. i just didn't look at polls a year out. they just didn't matter. i just worked. i know you did the same thing. >> yeah, i would say one thing that everyone should do that is gnashing their teeth and getting a headache over these polls, one thing the biden campaign is going to need in every state in the union is a lot of volunteers. i think people underestimate the power of volunteers in a ground game. they hear ground game, they don't even know what that means. what that means is a skeleton staff that deploys hundreds and hundreds of volunteers to go to specific doors and make sure those voters are aware and informed and are going to vote. then on election day, a huge plan to pull those voters, make sure you call them, make sure you send people to knock on their doors. if you care, call today and volunteer. go online and volunteer. call your state democratic party and volunteer. there's lots of ways you can get busy right now helping these campaigns identify the voters that may need some extra love and care when the election gets closer, to make sure they're paying attention. >> rev and donny, i'll get to you both. rev, you first. i think we're all deeply skeptical of the polling there that suggests that donald trump is going to beat joe biden among young voters. that said, it is reflective of what a lot of democrats have acknowledged as a bit of an enthusiasm problem for this property, particularly young voters and young voters of color. that seems to have only picked up in the last month or so because of the fighting in the middle east. how do you see it? and what do you see could be the remedy? >> i think that the fact that there is a lack of enthusiasm among young voters, particularly young black voters, the biden campaign needs to take seriously. you need to really build a ground game movement from the bottom-up, rather than poo-poo it and be in denial. i was a big boxing fan. joe and i talk about that all the time. the best fighters, the best champions fight when they feel they're behind. a good trainer in your corner will tell you you're behind even if you're winning the round because they want you not to relax. they should not relax. they ought to be out there saying, "our justice department has prosecuted more federal civil rights cases of young blacks that were victims than any justice department." tyrese nichols, ahmed aubry, george floyd. i'm doing a eulogy in mississippi. a black man had an off duty police officer run over him. never reported it and buried him. his family didn't find out until five months. they exhumed the body. i'm doing the funeral today. they need to be saying that to young voters, to black voters, saying, you compare our record and ask what the justice department is doing for cases like this under donald trump. the question is, you have to make voters feel that you're not on biden's side, you're on your own side. if you're on your own side, you have to bet on it. >> it's not just that the young voters might vote for trump, donny. more likely, they stay home and don't vote at all, which would be deeply problematic for this president as he runs for re-election. people hate it. democrats hate talking about joe biden's age. democrats can't stop talking about joe biden's age. that is a part of this. he turns 81 today. weigh in on the enthusiasm issues he has among young voters. frankly, some look at him and say, he doesn't understand us, doesn't connect with us, he's too old. >> first of all, you have to walk into the age thing. he did it a couple weeks ago, had some fun with it. turned age into experience and fitness. the one thing that i would focus on if i was the biden campaign is a very primal thing that's going to happen to voters when they walk in. biden is safe. trump is unsafe. he is unsafe if you're a woman because you'll lose your right to choose. we all know how powerful abortion is. he's unsafe on the world stage. generals talk about it. go to the primal thing. yes, joe biden, one thing you can feel safe, america, is with joe biden. donald trump is dangerous to you. he is unsafe. he is unfit. i would start to use the word fitness versus unfit. fitness is a little bit of a metaphor. you can't say that he is young, but you can say that biden is fit. the other guy is unfit. draw that contrast. >> yup. >> make it about danger and safety. biden will never be sexy. he's not going to be sexy at 81. biden was not sexy at 62, but he is safe and he is fit. the other side is not. >> ashley, you have new reporting for "the post" on how the biden campaign is working to ease democratic anxiety over re-election chances. some therapy being offered? what are they doing? >> well, they realize they have a problem in the sense of at least, as we've just discussed, perception. their belief is a lot of what joe was just echoing, which is, polls a year out don't mean anything. wait until a couple weeks, a couple months before election day. wait until there is a clear contrast between, for instance, joe biden and likely donald trump. in that intervening time, there's a couple of months where there are likely going to be more polls potentially like this and where you are going to have, as we reported, democrats, and not just voters -- rather, not just donors, not just operatives, not just d.c. democrats, but also voters who are very worried about biden's age and if it means he's lost a step against a matchup with donald trump. so what they are doing is, on the one hand, they're sort of rolling their eyes and staying the course and not changing their internal strategy, but they are now taking steps to reassure this wide swath of democrats that, yes, everything will be okay. that ranges from they've started doing more contrasts with trump. as biden himself says, don't compare me to the almighty. compare me to the alternative. that's who they expect the alternative to be. even privately, the biden campaign flew out to chicago where obama alumni, several thousand, had an alumni weekend and did a private presentation that outlined the strategy. tried to reassure these democrats that everything is okay. also, acknowledged pretty clearly, this will be hard. they end that presentation that they've made a number of times by saying, look, 43,000, 45,000 votes, had they gone a different way across three or four key states, donald trump still would be president. you're right, this will be hard. this is a fight. but here's our strategy, and we believe we've got this. >> ashley, how much disquiet is there in the biden campaign about the effect that the middle east policy is having on younger democratic voters? it's a year out. people's memories are famously short, particularly in this information age, and whether that will still be a -- could still be a factor come next november. >> you look at the recent nbc poll, and they are aware. as senator mccaskill was saying, these various voting blocks, voters of color and especially young people, where you're seeing fissures in what's happening in the israel-gaza war. they're aware this is real, but, again, they say, this is a year out. we're taking steps to show why president biden is making decisions he's making. more importantly, they say, why would they believe president biden is still, you know, disquiet concerns aside, better than president trump on just about, they say, all of these issues? >> the "the washington post"'s ashley parker, thank you for coming on. ahead on "morning joe," white supremacist groups appear to be trying to exploit divisions in the u.s. over the israel-hamas war. >> of course they are. >> our next guest will explain why neo nazis are popping up at pro-palestinian rallies across the country. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. oh. [dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ welcome back. half past the hour. argentina elected a right-wing populist to lead the country. in a decisive presidential run-off election yesterday, javier mele won 55% of the vote. the second place candidate won 44% of the votes. as crowds took to the streets of buenos aires last night, the president-elect spoke of starting the, quote, reconstruction on argentina. "washington post" reports milie is an anarco capitalist who compares to donald trump, and hisargentinians' frustrations with their struggle to support, particularly with men. >> i was surprised by the outcome. i thought it'd be much closer after seeing what happened in poland. >> yeah. >> you really do start to think that maybe these anti-democracy forces will, in the end, get overwhelmed by people who actually don't want radicalism. but that didn't happen in argentina, not even close. talk about the impact. >> yeah, i mean, look, this is a country where inflation is running at 185%. for americans who got very stressed when inflation was at 6% or 7%, that puts it in some kind of perspective. people were really fed up. they felt that the people who had been running the country for the last 20 years kept repeating the same problems. there are so many echoes here of bolsonaro, of trump to some extent, but melei is out on the extreme scale. he called pope francis a leftist criminal, an evil leftist. he says climate change is a socialist lie. he wants to recriminalize abortion in the country, dollarize the economy. he has absolutely no experience of governing. he's never been elected to office. he was a tv host. they've gone from kind of, well, we knew this and it didn't work and we've got 185% inflation, to thinking, what the heck? we'll try this guy. he spent $50,000 cloning his dog once. wielded a chain saw on the campaign trail. but we're going to roll the dice, i guess, enough argentinians felt, and give it a go. it's not very easy to see how this can work out well for the argentinian economy or the argentinian people, given some of his proposals, but the country has been in a mess. that's where it led. >> jonathan, inflation is going to play a big role in the presidential race next year. just for perspective, though, as katty said, it is 185% in argentina. it's 3.6% in the united states and has been going down now for over a year. >> yeah, there's no real comparison there. but this is potentially a worrisome development. it is extreme right-wing winning in argentina. he has been deemed the donald trump of argentina. he also, of course, has the tv host background, though trump famously hates dogs. the comparison breaks down there. donald trump won't be cloning animals. we don't think that'll happen. but it is a concern. he said he is going to strip government down, clash services, gut the federal bureaucracy. there are a lot of those who, both sides of the atlantic and certainly in washington, who worry about what could come next there in argentina. a massive and influential south american country. now this. wisconsin lawmakers are speaking out after a group of neo-nazis marched through the streets of madison over the weekend. on saturday, videos posted to social media showed the masked group carrying flags with swastikas, not far from the university of wisconsin campus. in a statement afterwards, democratic governor tony evers condemned the march, writing in part, quote, ets be clear, neo nazis, anti-semitism, and white supremacy have no home in wisconsin. we will not accept or normalize this rhetoric and hate." joining us now, lawyer karen dunn. in 2021, she helped secure more than $25 million settlement for nine plaintiffs who were injured during the 2017 unite the right white supremacist rally in charlottesville, virginia. >> karen, thanks so much for being with us. this sounds all too familiar to what happened in charlottesville, where you had anti-semites from both sides, of course, and anti-semites chanting, "jews will not replace us" in charlottesville. the anti-semites, neo nazis in wisconsin doing the same, basically. >> thanks for having me, joe and mika. what we saw in wisconsin was all too familiar from what happened in charlottesville. one of the reasons i want to speak out about this is because the rise in anti-semitism that we're seeing in the united ates today is not just a problem for jewish people. it's a problem for all people. in charlottesville, what started with, "jews will not replace us," became violence to all races and ethnicities, led to the killing of a woman and the injury of many others. it was premeditated, and anti-semitism was used tactically to rally people to the cause and racial hatred in general. part of the tactics that we're seeing is normalization. the first time you see 20 people march with swastika flags and masks in a college town, in madison, wisconsin, maybe you're shocked. how do you feel the second time or the third time? how do you feel when it is 100 people? the idea is to normalize this, to make it seem less shocking, so that becomes more acceptable. >> karen, al sharpton. talk about how, in the middle of our dealing with the war of israel and hamas, that some of these neo-nazi groups are infiltraing some of the people that are outraged about what is going on in gaza, and turning what could be a balanced concern for those that suffered in israel as civilians and those that suffered in gaza as civilians as really a front for them to get their anti-semitic, anti-jewish message out. there are some people that legitimately are for a two-state solution, like i am, but that are outraged on what happened in israel and outraged at what happened in gaza, that are not near anti-semitic or neo-nazis. talk about how the neo-nazi groups are manipulaing some of the protests and turning them into something they were not originally designed for. >> the reaction among the white supremacist community to october 7th was swift, and it was gleeful. they are seeing an opportunity here because they are looking to push the same anti-semitic tropes they've been pushing for years. the national justice party attended a rally at the white house, and they, you know, put on their website and had signs calling for the destruction of israel. which is not a feeling shared by many of those people protesting at the white house. we have to be very careful in what we're seeing. we see, you know -- they see an opportunity where other people see a massacre or horrible set of circumstances. >> karen, first, let me say how happy i always am to see a successful woman trial lawyer. it is harder than it looks, so good for you. >> thank you. >> my question to you is, what would your advice be to people on the ground that are peacefully trying to protest and find themselves invaded by all this hate and this ugliness? how do they preserve their rights to protest without being associated with this kind of ugly, and what should they do in the moment to try to not allow this to be normalized? >> yeah, that is an excellent question. i appreciate the compliment very much. on the ground is very difficult, but i think the most important thing is to be aware. one thing that we've seen is that people who do not like the white supremacist message and they are concerned about extremist violence are taking it on in the moment. they're saying, we don't agree with this. it is very important, the right to speech, the right to protest, all protected under our constitution, but the right to extremist violence is not. if you see people in your midst who are trying to exploit the situation for their own purposes, not out of any concern that you share, you should speak up. you should say something and and disassociate from their message. we've all seen through charlottesville and other extremist events in the united states what this leads to. it's not good for anyone. it's not good for the jewish people and not good for any people. >> my god. attorney karen dunn, thank you very much for coming on the show, for running your piece, which is "why neo-nazi groups are popping up at pro-palestinian rallies." it is online now at msnbc.com. an important read. coming up right here, an update on the negotiations to free more hostages held by hamas, as u.s. officials continue to work with partners in the middle east to free the dozens of people captured by the terrorist group. also ahead, something very different, art options are now becoming must-see tv. we'll look at what's fueling the rise in popularity. 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>> who often sends his people. >> did he buy me this picture? it was pretty intense, as it went on and on. as you heard, it sold last week for $3,500,000. >> wow. >> auctions first started streaming during the pandemic and have since turned into an internet phenomenon, with millions of people watching. as our next guest writes, auction houses like southeby's added control rooms filled with producers and directors who watch every camera angle and monitor, where the action is in the sales room to capture the energy of the moment. brilliant. joinings you now, former art reporter for "the new york times," carol vogel. her latest piece is entitled "teleprompter, makeup, gavel, art auctions become must-see tv." i guess my first question, carol, would be, i wonder if this also boosts the bottom line. >> of course it does. it boosts the bottom line not because the people watching are necessarily those that are going to spend $1 million. >> right. >> but the younger generation. they'll say, what is that? i can want afford a painting, but i can buy this watch. who knows? maybe that's tomorrow's hedge fund billionaire who will end up spending money on paintings. >> carol, when did this -- >> it's so tense. >> when did this really take off? was it during the pandemic? >> it started during the pandemic when nobody could actually go to auctions. then, what i began to realize is they got more sophisticated. they got serious television producers in. i was sitting in sotheby's, and i turned and saw a teleprompter and realized everything was scripted. i thought, what is going on? they streamed them on youtube and tiktok. what's fascinating is to read the comments of the people who are watching. these aren't art people. they're just fascinated by the drama, the theater, and the mystery of it. >> tell me a little bit, carol, about how this changes the role of the actioneer. i guess they've always been a showman. i listened to a record playing of an auctioneer once in a tobacco selling country, and it was made into a record because it was fun to listen to. are they hiring different auctioneers? are they having to be television presenters? >> they're not hiring different auctioneers from what i can tell, but what they are doing, i'm sure, is they're training them. they're giving them lessons on, you know, how to make themselves more appealing. they've become celebrities in their own right. you're recognized, i'm sure, when you walk down the street, and they're becoming recognized, too. people online are commenting, "who is that guy? why is he saying this?" they are becoming personalities. >> speaking of personalities, there was a and with tiktok views toting 9.5 million, so talk to us about how social media is playing a role here. they're having oxygen parties while watching? >> they'll watch it and put it on instagram or on something and it will start getting more and more traction. but what was fascinating with mercury was to read there were i think the first night alone, there were almost 8,000 comments, and the comments ranged from everything, like, oh, he would be so happy to see this, he was an icon to this fellow who said i can't pay my electric bill. i'm eating beans and it's either eat or heat. you know, this world is vulgar. so i think it's -- it's a voyeuristic thing. and at the same time, it repels people, but they can't stop watching it. >> oh. >> does that make sense? >> reality tv. >> certainly does. >> 9.5 million views. i mean -- >> that's incredible. >> that was staggering. >> i was shocked. >> yeah. that is staggering. >> i actually read all 7,000 comments. i got -- it was like -- it was like this soap opera. you couldn't stop reading it. and they talked to each other. they would see a comment and say you can't pay your heat, you know, i can't either, that kind of thing. >> okay. so, as the daughter and mother of an artist, i'm not sure i love this or hate this. >> this is great. >> former art reporter if "the new york times," carol vogel, thank you for this story. >> a fascinating story. up next on "morning joe," as president biden turns 81 years old today, a new nbc news poll shows him in a statistical tie with donald trump. steven kornacki will join us at the big board to break down the voting bloc peeling away from the president for now. rsv can severely affect the lungs and lower airways. but i'm protected with arexvy. arexvy is a vaccine used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. rsv can be serious for those over 60, including those with asthma, diabetes, copd, and certain other conditions. but i'm protected. arexvy is proven to be over 82% effective in preventing lower respiratory disease from rsv and over 94% effective in those with these health conditions. 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(♪♪) the promise of this nation should extend to all from new york to new mexico, from alaska to alabama. but right now, people like you are losing their freedoms. some in power are suppressing voting rights. banning our kids books from libraries and attacking our right to make private health care decisions. we must act now to defend these freedoms and protect our democracy. and we can't do it without you. we are the american civil liberties union, and we're asking you to join us in protecting our democracy at the national level and in communities like yours. call or go online to myaclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. your gift of just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day will help ensure that together we can continue to fight for the freedoms of all americans, no matter your zip code. if you also believe in the right to vote, the right to free speech, the right to learn, the right to bodily autonomy. please join us now. these are your fundamental rights that people are playing with. and so you need to get involved, because if you don't, then someone else is going to decide whether or not you get to choose what happens to your own body. so please call or go to myaclu.org and become an aclu guardian of liberty for just $19 a month. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and more to show you're part of a movement to protect the rights of all people. we can't make systemic change in the way that we want to doing it by ourselves. we have to work together because we the people, means all of us. from sea to shining sea. so please call or go online to myaclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. welcome back. so, donald trump hit the campaign trail on iowa saturday, where he got an unusual introduction from a state lawmaker. here's how republican representative mike sexton used his time on stage in fort donl. >> but the side is powerful in biden. crooked is he. the country, he does not care. the force is strong in donald trump. help him, you can. caucus for him, you shall. for without his victory, all hope is lost. >> impression received less than positive reviews on social media. >> really. >> incluing from. luke skywalker himself. he tweeted, "losing my lunch, i am." >> claire mccaskill -- >> must we talk about this? >> have you ever had such an introduction at one of your rallies? >> joe biden came to a rally for me right before my last election that i lost, and i did not even consider trying to do an impression when i introduced him. and by the way, this is kind of embarrassing. you know, the lack of seriousness here and the fact that these people come to these rallies think they're coming to, like, a show. >> yeah. >> this is an entertainment thing. >> yeah. >> this isn't here's how i can lift you up. here's how i can solve problems for you. it is just a total narcissistic rant about how wonderful he is and how everybody else sucks. and it is just mind numbing stupid that these people think it's entertaining. i don't get it. >> that state lawmaker to me seemed like he was doing an imprepgs of steve karel doing an impression of yoda. but we should take a moment to note, senator mccaskill's chiefs -- >> what a game. >> yes! >> what a game tonight. claire, it's been -- you know, it's been an up-and-down season for the chiefs. but tonight, what a game it's going to be. >> yeah. i'm looking forward to it. i'm going over to kansas city for the game. and so i'll be there with bells on. i actually think once again our defense -- our offense has sputtered slightly. i think that our wonderful quarterback is -- patrick is having a little trouble finding reliable receivers that can get it done. but i think the defense will rise to the occasion again tonight. it will be a nail-biter, but the super bowl champs will beat the eagles again. >> okay. the kansas city chiefs will host the philadelphia eagles. we'll be watching tonight. still ahead, we'll take you inside a washington, d.c., courtroom for the oral arguments on the gag order in donald trump's federal election interference case. we're back in 90 seconds. c'mon, we're right there. c'mon baby. it's the only we need. go, go, go, go! ah! touchdown baby! -touchdown! are your neighbors watching the same game? yeah, my 5g home internet delays the game a bit. but you get used to it. try these. they're noise cancelling earmuffs. i stole them from an airport. it's always something with you, man. great! solid! -greek salad? exactly! don't delay the game with verizon or t-mobile 5g home internet. catch it on the xfinity 10g network. signs that more hostages held by hamas could soon be freed. we'll get the latest on that and the war with a live report from tel aviv. and we'll discuss how the war is impacting biden politically as a new poll shows young voters are growing more disillusioned with the current administration. and we'll remember the life and legacy of former first lady rosalynn carter. passed yesterday. >> i would hear your family talk about her. the respect you all awl had from the kids to your mom to your father, who was completely smitten with what she called her subtle southern charm. >> she had quiet power. she was incredibly impactful in the white house and beyond, just like her husband, the former president. and she was the kindest, most patient woman i think i've ever met. >> i heard so many tributes yesterday about mrs. carter. we'll have jonathan alter on along later today with jon meacham and andrea mitchell. yesterday, jonathan said without a doubt the most significant first lady since eleanor roosevelt. >> absolutely. absolutely. what you were looking at there were pictures of my dad, my mom, and rosalynn carter. that's one of my mother's sculpture shows. you can see the relationship was charming and fun and also very serious because she dealt with major, major issues of our time ahead of our time, even mental health. and she was a huge humanitarian as well. she stepped in where she thought she would be helpful. >> there are some things to -- just personally from what i've heard from you and your family, she was very motherly to you. >> yes. >> she was very supportive of your mother's art. and she was very patient with your father. >> and me. and my father. yes. absolutely. >> exactly. >> we'll have much more on her remarkable life and her impact on this country and around the world. with us, we have the host of "way too early" white house bureau chief at politico jonathan lemire, u.s. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay. columnist and associate editor for "the washington post," david ignatius, president emeritus of the council on foreign relations, richard haass. >> he was also a giants fan. >> absolutely. >> richard, the giants can't even, like, lose right. now is the time to start losing to get draft picks, and they win. guys on the field are celebrating. i'm going, what are you celebrating about? and in new york, new york football, it's crazy, the jets, they figure out with two minutes left in the fourth quarter, three quarters of the way through the season, that the quarterback may not be good. >> as for the giants, yes, a time for every purpose under heaven. yesterday was a time to lose. unfortunately, they did not. >> yeah. >> also with us this morning, we have the host of the podcast "on brand" with donny deutsch, donny deutsch is with us as well. we'll start with our top story this morning. israeli defense forces have released new video of what they say is a, quote, fortified terror tunnel under gaza's main hospital. troops began their raid of the medical facility last week saying hamas has a command center beneath the complex. israeli officials say they've been excavating the site for several days. video shows a vertical shaft with a ladder that leads to a staircase as well as a door with a small square segment that israeli officials say is a, quote, firing hole. nbc news cannot independently verify these details. the i've v idf also released footage of what it describes as hamas members, quote, forcibly transporting hostages through gaza's main hospital. israel says this is proof the terrorist group used the medical facility the day it attacked israel. nbc news is unable to independently verify this idf's description of the video. meanwhile, israel and hamas are reportedly close to securing a deal on the release of dozens hostages according to sources familiar with the negotiations. "the washington post" reports the release could happen within the next few days. according to the v "the post," under the terms of the deal, both parties must agree to stop fighting for at least five days. during that time, 50 or more hostages would be released in smaller batches every 24 hours. >> and of course it's not a coincidence that the closer israel gets to hamas, the more tunnels they uncover -- this is the reality. people don't have to like it if they don't want to like it. if they want to go on tiktok and hear lies, they can do that. but there's a reason hamas is now talking about negotiating for hostages and releasing hostages. it's because they desperately need four or five days without israel tracking them down so they can escape. of course this is the decision that will be made. i'm sure if the deal can be made, it will be made. but make no mistake, they're only making that deal because israel has pressed far more than they ever expected them to. >> yeah. joining us now from tel aviv, nbc news chief internationalent more on this. keir, obviously, there is such an extreme hope upon hope to get hostages home, too, which is the friction here. >> reporter: i just spoke to a mother here. she's now way waited 45 days. she said she would go to gaza herself, but that's how desperate she is. it's a terrible, terrible situation. the officials i talked to with knowledge of the talks talk about inching towards a deal, but i think it's important to caveat that. i've spoke on the them many times over many weeks to just caveat that. for example, when the talk is about now we're down to scheduling, what happens when, that's a big deal. you know, when are hostages released, how, and when does the aid come in, as well as other things like, for example, one aspect of those talks, hamas asking -- calling, demanding that palestinian prisoners be released by israel and which of those prisoners. we've met women and children. all of those things. so, the reality is with this deal is that it's not done until it's done. that's what officials i spoke to were saying, and that's partly because they've seen things collapse on multiple occasions in the past, including, you know, 24 hours before the ground invasion began that there were real hopes that there would be a breakthrough. ultimately, i don't think that israel really felt satisfied that it was being give an clear picture of how many hostages would be released. then of course there will be the internal debates in the israeli government over that question of some saying let's do the ground invasion. let's not pause. all of these aspects mean it's kind of a mixed picture. on the one hand, many sides say these talks look positive, on the other hand saying that, you know, you can't -- it's not done until it's done. there's a question of the al shifa hospital and what's happening there. i think part of this is about the language. of course so much of this is about language and perception. ultimately what israel talked about prior to this about an extensive headquarters under al shifa hospital, putting out an illustration of what the headquarters might look like. inevitably, people are going to compare what israel finds with what it said, even if they said it was an illustration. listen to the deputy national security talking on "meet the press" yesterday. >> the qatari prime minister said today israel's actions at al shifa hospital are a, quote, crime. does the white house stand by israel's assessment that ha-ha mas is headquartered underneath the hospital, and are you confident israel is following international law? >> our u.s. intelligence information, not just israeli intelligence information, suggest hamas has used al shifa for the planning of terrorist attacks and the execution of terrorist attacks. it continues to do so. that does not in our view mean that israel should conduct air strikes on the hospital or ground assaults on the hospital. we've been equally clear about that. but hamas has put these people in severe jeopardy in the way it's conducting this war. >> reporter: so picking through the language, command and control facility doesn't sound quite like -- secretary blinken has talked about a command and croel node -- doesn't quite sound like the same language as the israelis' idea of an extensive headquarters. we shall see. but to quickly finish, there are 31 babies now in southern gaza who are -- have been evacuated safely from al shifa, but some of those babies died because they say of contaminated water and hypothermia. that's why this question of what is at al shifa is important. >> all right. nbc's keir simmons, thank you so much. again, i mean, you think of babies being injured. you don't know how long they can last. there is such a pressure to try and figure out how to get the hostages home. >> yeah, there is. pressure to figure out how to get the hostages home and also a growing realization, as david ignatius wrote in his latest piece, a growing realization that israel may be winning the war on the ground. but they are losing the information war. they have to be more cognizant of that because, you know, the question that david, that richard, that the smartest minds in foreign policy said at the start of this war is, the war must be conducted with an eye to what happens after the war, as david said, the day after the war. well, david, you said in your recent piece that israelis don't know what that looks like. i want to play you a clip that went viral this weekend, got picked up. it's bill clinton from hillary clinton's 2016 presidential campaign. it's spreading on social media right now. this is the former president speaking at a campaign event for his wife in new jersey when a crowd member yelled, "what about gaza?" this is what bill clinton said regarding his record on the israeli-palestinian conflict. >> i killed myself to get the palestinians a state. i had a deal they turned down that would have given them auto of gaza dash wit, wait -- all of gaza between 96% and 97% of the west bank, compensating land in israel, you name it. then, when the prime minister of the palestinians of the west bank, we had all the muslim countries willing to normalize relations with israel if they recognized the palestinian state. did i agree with the israeli policy? no. my whole life i did that. >> so, david, and nobody understands this on tiktok, obviously. nobody has this context. i bring it up for a good reason, because if you're the israelis united ear look at what happens the day after, how you bring peace to the land, how you bring security to the land, you look at the fact that through the years the palestinians have said no to every peace deal, including what bill clinton was talking about in 2000, where you're talk about all of gaza, 97% of the west bank, some land in israel to compensate for the land not in the west bank, capital in east jerusalem, on and on and on. i guess my question back to you is what could israel look like the day after this war is over? how do we get to a two-state solution when the palestinians in the past have said no? >> i think the palestinians have been foolish, have skwaunld earned their opportunities for peace, for having a state of their own, multiple deals, the ones clinton talks about, that many others have been presented to them. i think what we've seen in this terrible gaza war is that this problem doesn't go away and that it is in israel's interest, even at time when israelis have lost faith in palestinian partner in peace, to find some way using israel's new friend in the arab world. and there's a growing list. probably includes saudi arabia now in addition to the uae, egypt, jordan -- use those countries to help build a different kind of governance in gaza and the west bank. post hamas, israel is going to destroy hamas. anybody who's watched hamas' actions since they took power in 2006, 2007, they've done nothing for gaza expect prepare for war. postwar governance, palestinian authority in the west bank, aided by the key arab countries, maybe over several years begins to produce something more stable. it's got to be demilitarized. the israelis can't cower in fear again the way they did on october 7th. that's over. that's not going to happen. i just felt, after spending a week in israel, a day in gaza city a week ago, that it's time for israel to focus more on these day-after issues and humanitarian issues, not simply because it's the right thing to do morally, which i think it is, but because it's important for the operational plans that they have. losing an information war makes it hard to win the war on the ground. you're just constantly answering questions of what about that video and where are the weapons. it's in israel's interest to be seen to be trying to take palestinians who probably don't support hamas after this -- they're furious what they've been led into -- help them to begin to build better lives. and over time -- it will take a couple years -- a different kind of governance. i concluded my long piece yesterday, joe, saying this is too tough for israel to do right now. it's too tough for the palestinians. the united states as a friend of israel needs to help them think about how to build something new. that's our job. people may not want to listen to us at first. but i admire biden for persisting, raising this, coming back to the issue of the palestinian state, because i think in the long run that's the only way to avoid endless recurrence of these wars. >> we should note over the weekend there was some reporting that a deal was done for the hostage release in exchange for a pause, but the white house strongly pushed back against that. they said it's close, and they're talking, but there are debates in the knesset as to who whether they want to go forward with that. richard, we heard from john finer over the weekend, deputy national secretary, there's a fine line there and push back some of the israelis' tactics in this operation. with that as the backdrop, let's put the question to you. are you seeing any sort of encouraging signs from israel that they are thinking about after the war, that they are thinking tact day after and are taking any steps to prepare for it? >> short answer is no. a rule of thumb, the united states learned in iraq, before you start a war, think about how you end the war. it's not clear to me the israelis did that here. there's zero enthusiasm in the arab world for playing a role, zero enthusiasm in the u.n. for anybody playing a role, but also the palestinian authority, jonathan, lacks the capacity. go beyond that. who are the israelis talking to? essentially they're talking to hamas through qatar, so the question is does hamas get totally eliminated? i doubt it. i think politically that kind of radical organization, whatever you call it, is still going to have a role in gaza. no, i don't think the israelis have thought it through about how you create a governing authority. back to the previous conversation david was having, the only way to do it is you have to create momentum or change the context, begin to move toward a palestinian political process that has hope. we're not talking about negotiations. this is prenegotiations. maybe it's preprenegotiations. but you have to starter a process so there's ultimately an alternative to palestinians who basically are committed to trying to destroy israel, killing jews, and all that, but it's not clear this israeli government can. the reason you can't even get an agreement on a hostage deal from israel, there's such a split in this israeli government, jonathan, they're not in the right zip code when it comes to thinking about the day after. coming up, chris matthews joins us to preview the week ahead in politics and to reflect on the passing of former first lady rosalynn carpeter. sleep more deeply. and wake up rejuvenated. with purple's new mattresses- fall asleep 20% faster have less aches and pains and sleep uninterrupted. right now save up to $900 off mattress sets during purple's black friday sale. visit purple.com or a store near you today. in the u.s. we see millions of cyber threats each year. that rate is increasing as more and more businesses purple's black friday sale. move to the cloud. - so, the question is... - cyber attack! as cyber criminals expand their toolkit, we must expand as well. we need to rethink... next level moments, need the next level network. 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( ♪♪ ) and with once-daily trelegy, it can still be beautiful. because with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler, trelegy keeps my airways open for a full 24 hours and prevents future flare-ups. trelegy also improves lung function, so i can breathe more freely all day and night. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. ♪ what a wonderful world ♪ [laughing] ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy for copd because breathing should be beautiful, all day and night. this morning we're remembering the life and legacy of former first lady rosalynn carter. yesterday, when the sad news broke, i couldn't help but be amused by an ed luce tweet, ed, of course, writing your father's biography right now. but this is what ed got from your father's diary from january 1977. "rosalynn was --" this is dr. brzezinski writing. "rosalynn was very nice to me and invited mika to come and play with amy and then went and looked for mika when she didn't show up for lunch." from dr. brzezinski's diary about their respective 9-year-old girls at a preinaugural weekend at st. simons island. >> we disappeardisappeared. >> she was very motherly and sweet, would wipe chocolate from your face with great regularity. >> she was really remarkable and kind and warm and incredibly patient. i've got my dad's book, which has a lot of his diaries in it, "power and principle." i have some nice stories about her i'll share in just a moment. but first, "nbc nightly news" anchor lester holt reports on her life and legacy. >> it's now my pleasure to introduce someone whom i love and respect and cherish, my wife, rosalynn. >> she was jimmy carter's partner, best friend, and closest adviser in and out of the white house for more than three-quarters of a century. soft-spoken, politically savvy, and fiercely determined, rosalynn carter was known as the steel magnolia, and she made the role of first lady her own. born rosalynn smith in plains, georgia, she was a neighbor to jimmy carter, three years her senior. >> i was shy and found out that he was so easy to talk to. we just kind of hit it off really well. i think i was already in love with him. >> they married in 1946 when she was 18. >> equally and totally dedicated partners even when i was earning a living as a peanut farmer. >> jimmy ran the family farm. they raised three sons and daughter amy. jimmy got into politics, elected georgia governor in 1970, then running for president with rosalynn's enthusiastic support. >> thank you both very much. >> completely shaken and unbiased. >> i love politics. >> the small-town girl with a poor family who'd never finished college thrived on the national stage. >> every day i see things that i think i could help. there are things i want to learn more about. >> jimmy carter won the election with roz rinn playing a key role. >> i was involved with the installation of the vice president. >> she was front and center from the start, attending cabinet meetings, leading on policy issues, including mental health, becoming the first first lady since eleanor roosevelt to testify before congress. >> i am here as a concerned citizen. there are so many opportunities, and if i don't use the influence i have to help those people who need help, i think it's a terrible waste. >> she served as president carter's emissary, taking high-profile trips to latin america and asia. >> i think that i am the person closest to the president of the united states, and if i can help him in understanding the countries of the world, then that's what i intend to do. >> often more popular than the president himself, she was his advocate in chief. >> i'm proud of jimmy carter and the job he's doing, and he is without a doubt the best person in our country to see us through these times. >> but faced with a troubled economy and a painful hostage crisis, carter lost to ronald reagan in 1980, and the carters returned to plains. they founded the carter center, and together they began a remarkable decades-long post presidency devoted to human rights, international diplomacy, e rad skating disease, and year after year building low-income housing with habitat for humanity. in 1999, they were awarded the presidential medal of freedom. >> i think that was one of the happiest times of my life. there is life after the white house. >> through it all, she remained her husband's greatest champion. >> it irritates me when people say he was a good former president. he's a good president. >> as for her own place in history, rosalynn carter was characteristically modest. >> i just hope people think i did the best i could. >> all right. joining us now, nbc news chief foreign affairs correspondent and host of "andrea mitchell reports," andrea mitchell. rogers sharon, the american president at vanderbilt university historian jon meacham, and yon athan alter, the author of "his very best: jimmy carter, a life." >> and of course that would apply to rosalynn carter, would it not. she gave her very best at all times. it was so wonderful to hear this girl who grew up poor in rural georgia talking about how she loved politics and how she loved being part of making the world a better place. >> absolutely. this is an epic american story. you know, they were married for 77 years, but they actually met each other 96 years ago, shortly after rosalynn carter was born, delivered by lillian carter, jimmy's mother, who was a nurse. miss lillian brought her toddler around to see the new baby. this was an extraordinary partnership that i think took her into the first ranks of first ladies in the whole history of this country. and we could talk all day about her substantive accomplishments, but just to focus on one, she was the greatest champion of mental health that we've seen. and she did more than anyone to end the stigma that was attached to mental illness until really the 1970s and '80s, when she got active in this issue. and there were just a number of substantive accomplishments that have been completely neglected by history, and also just her personal qualities. you know, i interviewed more than 250 people for my book, and many of them had some critical things to say about jimmy carter. i never heard a single word of criticism of rosalynn carter, who had superior political intelligence to her husband. he was the first to admit that. and she had a grace that touched everyone she met. >> yeah. her genteel approach really, it masked in a way her incredible power and strength. i think that was the secret sauce among many. i went through some old pictures and also my father's book "power and principle," which has his diaries from the white house that he goes through. and i'll just read. "carter once said something quite reverevealing, that while wod assess over time his view of a person and change it drastically, for rolynn, her first impression was decisive. it never altered." he talks about walking inton empty theater at the white house and seeing them holding hands alone in thetheater, watching movies. "carter told me every evening the two of them would read jointly a chanter from the bible. typical of his unending quest for self-improvement, that during the first year of the presidency, they did so in spanish so that they could enhance their mastery of that language. finally, rosalynn could be as tough as she was charming and gracious. she gave the white house both grace and warmth and did so without flaunting either status or power or asor, as lately has the case, wealth. she was a source of serene reflection and of good judgment." just to give you a sense of her importance, in this book, the beginning of it has all the key players. it's called "relating to key players in the top team of the white house." and before you get to walter mondale, cyrus vance, harold brown is rosalynn carter. my father was the first national security adviser to have cabinet-level status. rosalynn carter sat in on cabinet meetings. >> and andrea, i'm old enough to remember that that caused quite a stir. years before hillary clinton caused quite a stir as a first lady, rosalynn carpeter being such a strong force in the president's life. i mean, it was really first time since eleanor roosevelt that a first lady played such a prominent role. >> exactly. and she actually played a bigger role in that white house than eleanor did, because her relationship with jimmy carter was so passionate, so personal, so equal in a way that eleanor roosevelt's never was with fdr. and we know about the problems in their marriage as well. rosalynn carter really established the office of the first lady, became a budgeted office, an official office even though other first ladies had done many things, positive things. and she was such a pack breaker. my first interview with her was on labor day in 1978. i was new to nbc. it was my first trip to andrews air force base. i was very excited. she was filling in for jimmy carter on a political trip on labor day campaigning in texas for a democratic senator or candidate for senate. and so, i did an interview with her for the "today" show. we taped it on sunday night for a monday morning labor day interview. i remember how intimidated i was and how comfortable she made me. she was so kind and so generous. and i ended up being sort of the backup correspondent as the new kid on the block, on planes for christmas, thanksgiving, and all the holidays, backing up the lead correspondents, judy woodruff and the late great john palmer. so, we had quite a team. and i just admired her so much. she supported the equal rights amendment. she was forceful. in 1977, their first year in the white house, she went on a trip, a diplomatic trip to latin america. it was 12,000 miles, seven countries, 13 days, and she was talking to the leaders there about nuclear energy, agricultural exports, all kinds of diplomatic issues that was part of her arena. she was just extraordinary. >> remarkable. >> she was. jon meacham, hearing her quote in the lester holt package talking about how she got irritated when people said that he was a good former president, she said he was a good president. and i know that she was deeply wounded, as was jimmy carter, by the 1980 loss. as is often the case, like with harry truman, the assessment of jimmy carter of course grows by the year. we look back and especially now recognize what he did. middle east peace breakthrough, the first really, and the most significant. opened relations with china, changed the world, championed human rights in a way no american president had ever done while beginning at the end of his presidency the military ramp-up that, a long with the championing of human rights, was something that, along with reagan, helped lead to the downfall of the soviet union. historians no doubt will be much kinder to jimmy carter and of course rosalynn than those were in 1980. >> yeah. john alter has started this conversation brilliantly in his book. one of the things the carters' living legacy shows us is that history and headlines do not always move in tandem. and what's important in retrospect is often controversial or ignored in real time. and i think the carters' experience in the white house is something that should teach us that instant, reflexive reactions to everything that happens every minute of every day might just be wrong in the long term. you know, as howard baker, who helped president carter with the panama canal treaty, much to the irritation of a lot of people in tennessee, once said, you know, there is the possibility that the other fella might be right. and i think to some extent, that's legacy of the carters. coming up, a lot going on today. we'll go thrive washington, where a federal appeals court is hearing arments on whether to reinstate a gag order against donald trump. -dad, what's with your toenail? 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ucard gets you in with medicare advantage's largest national provider network. how 'bout using it at the pharmacy? yes - your ucard is all you need. huh - that's easy! can it help keep my smile looking good? yep! use your ucard at the dentist. say cheese! get access to what matters with the ucard only from unitedhealthcare. the tony award-winning musical comedy "spamalot" is back on broadway for the first time in 15 years. the first broadway revival of the, quote, musical lovingly ripped off from "monty python" and the holy grail visits camelot's quest for the holy grail, and, yes, even gets taunted by obnoxious frenchman. you can see it on broadway at the st. james theater right here in new york city. joining us now, two of its new k city. now two of its stars. thank you, gentlemen, for being here. >> morning. >> love the show. so glad it's back. james, talk to us about what drew you this beloved project. >> it's monty python's spamalot. i remember walking by the theater because i had no money to go see it. a friend of mine was in the show and brought me a ticket to see it. it was based on one of my favorite films, monty python and the holy grail. >> talk to us about the energy in the theater. people know the material. how are they responding? >> they come in ready for a good time. the show is filled with joy from the moment you sit down. i feel like audiences are really able to leave their days at the door. have a good time, watch a bunch of singing and dancing, laugh a lot. >> don't give us any spoilers, of course, but tell us how the movie differs or is similar to the movie. >> a lot of the stuff is right out of the movie. the original production was a smash, tony award winner. we have a new cast. we're able to bebe, hey, we kno what year it is in real life. this isn't the middle ages. >> james, talk to us about the pressure of trying to live up to such a legacy. >> the fun part is, we don't have to. i think people understand that was then. we don't have to live up to monty python or what tim curry and the original cast did. we get to be our own version. all we have to do is just be funny, come and do our thing. also we're kind of known on broadway, which is kind of nice. folks came in knowing, oh, if you're going to put all those silly guys together, we have to see it. >> we have everybody no new york who knows who this man in. he's like the mayor of new york. we have ethan slater, who was sponge bob. >> and the voice of god voiced by steve martin himself. >> no slouch. [ laughter ] >> michael, you were saying you've got a long day ahead. it's not just you have a performance tonight, but you're preferring for something else. >> we're doing the macy's thanksgiving day parade on thursday. we run over to macy's and rehearse our number right there on the big star in front of the store. broadway is nonstop. >> we're doing things even when the curtain came down. >> we're so glad you guys are here. you can see monty python's spamalot now through april 28th. thank you both. coming up here on "morning joe," this weekend's shock to the artificial intelligence world as the cofounder of chatgpt was ousted. andrew ross sorkin joins on the latest and what software giant has already snapped up sam altman's services. and just moments from now, lawyers for donald trump and the department of justice are set to square off in washington over the gag order in that election interference case. we'll bring you live audio from inside the courtroom. audio fro inside the courtroom new emergen-c crystals pop and fizz when you throw them back. and who doesn't love a good throwback? 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intensified in northern gaza. keir simmons has the latest. >> reporter: hope possibly this morning for some of the more than 200 hostages taken by hamas, with many desperate families demonstrating in israel this weekend. sources familiar with the negotiations confirm that talks mediated by the u.s. and qatar are on the brink of a breakthrough. >> we are closer than we have been in quite some time. >> reporter: nothing is final yet, and those talks have fallen apart before. this weekend israel under pressure to justify its assault on al shifa hospital in gaza, saying this security footage shows one hostages, one thai, one from nepal at the hospital on october 7th. this morning hamas admitting it took hostages to hospitals for treatment, it says, but in the footage one is dragged along a hall. and israel says at al shifa, this is a hamas hidden share case and a 55-meter, 180-foot tunnel with a blast door. the u.s. says its intelligence suggests the hospital harbored a hamas command facility. israel says it was an extensive headquarters. this morning, 31 premature babies from al shifa has been evacuated to a hospital in southern gaza. some did not survive. israel's offensive unrelenting. dozens were killed at a school this weekend. overnight another hospital hit with 12 kills. we meet a man who just got news his sister-in-law and nephew were killed in southern gaza. they're slaughtering us, he says. he's terrified for his 2 month old daughter and baby ali. if israel can't get them back, she'll go to gaza herself, she says. >> i just want to hug my daughters, to take them in my hand. >> nbc's keir simmons reporting. meanwhile, the israel/hamas war is impacting president biden politically with support eroding from one key group that helped propel him to the white house in 2020. steve, take us to the big board. >> interesting findings. in some ways an extension of what we've been showing you in these polls from a few months now. a mixup in a couple of key groups that, i think, does have to do with the middle east. 40% approve, 57% disapprove. this is our last national poll of 2023. we started with year with biden at 46%. he was coming off a pretty strong 2022 midterm. throughout this year, the news has been rough for biden on a lot of fronts. he ends the year 17 points underwater. this is the lowest we have measured his job approval rating since he became president. among independents, this has been a story this year that his support with them has eroded a little bit, it seems. by a 2-1 margin independents say they disapprove of the president. you look at republicans, it's not a surprise the overwhelming majority disapprove of biden, only 7% of republicans say they approve. however, look at democrats. the disapprove number is up since our last poll, which was taken in september, just weeks before october 7th. three times as many democrats disapprove of joe biden's performance as president than republicans who approve. biden has suffered erosion just since our last poll within his own party. you look for what might be driving some of that erosion, it's this topic. we asked about a series of issues. biden continues to perform poorly on the economy. when you ask about foreign policy, biden 33 approve, 62 disapprove. our last poll just before the situation emerged he was 41 to 53. here's what you see on this topic, a huge generational gap. this gets into the presidential race and american politics in general. we asked about biden's handling specifically of the israel/hamas war. it's similar to his foreign policy job reports, but now look at the breakdown by age. among the oldest group of voters, 65 plus, biden is actually plus 12, majority approval. 18-34 voters, biden is 20% approve, 70% disapprove. he is 50 points underwater. that is a net gap of 62 points between the youngest group of voters and the youngest group of voters on how they assess biden's performance when it comes to this war. the question is, who will the republican can't be to oppose him? our polling continues to show donald trump with a commanding lead. the only movement beneath him is coming from nikki haley. she was 7% back in september, almost doubling it up to 13% this time. the warning sign from haley a lot of people who disapprove of donald trump. to make this a real race with trump, she's going to have to win over voters who are very conservative, who say they like donald trump. she's going to have to change that to have a real chance. if it is biden and it is trump and the polling is suggesting trump with that commanding lead, we have in our polls donald trump at 46%, joe biden at 44%. the significance, this is the 16th time since early 2019 that we have polled a matchup of biden versus trump, and this is the first and so far only time in all 16 of those polls that donald trump has had the lead over joe biden. we could end on this, i think. we're always talking about polls showing voters aren't thrilled with the prospect of a biden/trump matchup. if you put biden on the ballot against an unnamed republican, biden loses by 11. it becomes basically a referendum on biden. flip it around, donald trump against an unnamed democrat, and trump starts to fall far behind. it's a little bit of a commentary on that issue of voters who don't seem thrilled by the choices they're going to have to make. >> steve kornacki, thank you very much. let's bring in former msnbc host chris matthews. chris, what do you make of these numbers? >> they're a problem and you have to overcome them. i remember when nixon was facing ed muskie, he had to make some changes. he made the country feel better about themselves. he's going to have to make some change. one thing he can do is get the governors. i've noticed the governors take credit for all economic developments because of infrastructure. biden got the bill through. all those infrastructure projects across the country, the governors are taking the credit. they're all doing it. i'm not going to name them, but i've seen it significantly in the northeast. they're taking the credit for what he's done. he's got to get some of that credit from the governors and they ought to pass the word, hey, give it to joe here because he's the one getting the economy >> certainly they're not for loss of material. there's absolute contrast between biden and trump. you have choices voters can make that are very clear based on facts. there's a huge contrast between the biden administration's accomplishments and accomplishments by the democrats as a result and republicans. we could do four hours. there would not be time to spell out the contrasts that you think would be more in line with where voters are. are these poll results part of a biden pattern, not to be overreacted to when you look at where he ends up? >> it was in the "wall street journal" on saturday, they talked about his strength on foreign policy. he has been so good. he has united europe in the ukraine battle. he has done something we haven't been able to do in decades. he's the leader of theworld. i think he could be a little more tough on netanyahu, but i think he's moving in the right direction on the middle east. and he's had to deal with the taiwan situation. it may be that he's been so forceful on foreign policy that that's all the headlines. if you're 21 years old and you have a college loan and you may not be making money yet, you're looking at the president on foreign policy. a lot of people would say what about my student loans, what about my situation? they might be saying i want more immediate help. it could be he's getting a lot of headlines about foreign policy and his position on netanyahu and what he's doing and pushing him to a two-state solution and trying to keep ukraine surviving as a country and saving europe from russia, the winning of war in the taiwan straits. all these are good things, but the headlines make him seem remote, distant from their own economic situations. i'm just guessing. i think he's thinking about ukraine a lot. i think that probably gets into people's heads. >> so the white house believes that the president will get credit for trying on student loans, because most of his efforts have been blocked by the courts. you're right. that's a piece of this. a lot of democrats have sounded the alarm to me about the enthusiasm gap. and donald trump for all of his many flaws, he does excite the republican base. we know his die-hards will be out there next november if he is the nominee. there's concern in some of the core pieces of the democratic base, young voters, voters of color, not that they would break for trump, but they might just stay home. that in itself would be the difference. how does biden address that enthusiasm? >> that is the problem. look at philadelphia. we talk about pennsylvania. it's going to be the keystone state next year. philadelphia turnout in 2022 was low. you can't make people vote. you've got to rally them. i think that is a challenge in the city where they're going to get the great democratic majorities and the suburbs. i think women are excited by the fact of the horror they're facing of the president saying i want women to suffer over abortion decisions. that's a horrible thing to say, but politically it's horrible that you say something like that to the people who are the victim group of your policies. donald trump is the one who got rid of roe v wade. you got those three judges on the court. you're responsible for that one thing. you did it. i think that's a case where the women and the men in the suburbs are going to say, this guy is wrong on an issue that already matters to me. >> before we close out, i'd love to hear your thoughts on the passing of roslyn carter. this woman so subtle, so elegant, so graceful, so patient, and yet so extremely powerful and impactful. >> i've been listen to you this morning. you are amazing about your personal experience with her as sort of a mother figure. i've got a couple of memories that are very strong as a speech writer for president carter. we got word in seattle 1:00 in the morning on the morning of the election. we knew we had lost the election. president carter got the word, you're going to lose by ten points, because the hostages thing is killing you. carter said first, think of something i should say in the morning when i get to plains to vote when i'm down in georgia. and then he said, and don't tell roslyn. nobody is to tell rosalynn that i lost. we flew into plains, georgia, i was listening to the secret service guy saying dancers on the ground. i thought, oh my god, the president has to tell his wife he lost. then later on in an oldie poe in plains, georgia, i looked up in the window. there they were, the two of them in that little room in the train depot, and he had to tell her then. it was a sad moment for them. he was trying to protect her. their partnership was real, mika. you know, in the beginning, she didn't want to give up that life in the military. he was going to be an admiral at least. he was going to be a flag officer of the highest rank, probably be in pearl harbor or some incredibly glamorous place. and she didn't want to give that up. he told me when they were driving down from schenectady to plains, when he decided to become a politician basically, she wouldn't talk to him in the car. in fact, she would say to one of her sons, tell your father that your mother has to go to the bathroom. it was really cold. carter told me it took her a year to get over his decision to go back to what he called this dinky town of plains, georgia. of course, when he started to win elections, the governorship, the presidency, of course she perked up. she came to love politics. she also came to love the hammer and nails. i saw her in tijuana, mexico, going habitat for humanity. she was totally into it. they were real partners. i don't think he's going to make it very long after without her. i think she was a huge part of his life. there she is with her hammer doing the woodwork there together. they are real partners. you can see it right there. >> you know, when he was 3 years old, i believe, he met her when she was born. she doesn't know life without him and he barely knows life without her, a true partnership, a true love story. >> they sure were. >> chris matthews, thank you very much. >> i love your stories, mika. they're real. >> thanks. >> brzezinski, the great man. >> he was very charmed by her. thank you, chris. former president trump will appear on the colorado primary ballot for next year's election. a state district court judge dismissed a lawsuit attempting to keep him off the ballot. now section three of the 14th amendment to the constitution states, no elected official who has previously taken an oath of office and engages in insurrection can hold office again. in her ruling, the judge found that donald trump did engage in an insurrection by inciting a riot on january 6th, but that the president is not subject to section three because he is not an officer of the united states. she pointed to the federal elected positions listed in the clause, adding it appears to the court that, for whatever reason, the drafters of section three did not intend to include a person who had only taken the presidential oath, but it's something she found that he incited an insurrection. the fulton county election interference case could go to trial as early as august of next year. that date requested by the district attorney fani willis in a new court filing on friday will assess the date's potential delays from donald trums other criminal trials and other defendants' constitutional speedy trial rights. we'll be following that. also, beginning at 9:30 eastern in morning in just about 12 minutes, the d.c. court of appeals is going to hear arguments on the gag order in former president trump's federal election interference case. the order imposed by judge tanya chutkan prevents the former president from publicly discussing court personnel, potential witnesses and the special counsel and his staff. prosecutors say attacks from trump could be dangerous, while the trump team says the gag order is a violation of his first amendment rights. joining us outside the courthouse in washington is ken dilanian. explain what's going to happen today. >> reporter: good morning, mika. this limited gag order is on hold pending appeal. judge chutkan agreed with prosecutors that there was a substantial risk to the administration of justice by the threats donald trump was making to court personnel and the attacks on the prosecutor. she said that undisputed testimony showed that when donald trump attacks people, they are then the target of harassment and threats. that includes herself. she was targeted by a death threat. she imposed this limited gag order prohibiting him from going after the prosecution and anyone on the prosecution team, court personnel and potential witnesses, did not prohibit him from saying the biden administration is corrupt or the justice department is out to get him. he is appealing and arguing this is a violation of his first amendment rights. it's not just him. the american civil liberties union has weighed in and argued that the order is to broad and vague. we're going to hear oral arguments from both sides broadcast and streamed on youtube. whatever happens today, this will ultimately end up in the supreme court, which has a much different composition than this d.c. appeals court. >> thank you very much. we'll be watching. in just a few moments, we're going to bring you the oral arguments live right here on msnbc. also ahead, the major tech move this morning shifting the power dynamic in the business of artificial intelligence. we're back in two minutes. artificial intelligence. 'rwee back in two minutes. i tok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can rapidly relieve joint pain, stiffness, and swelling in ra and psa. relieve fatigue for some... and stop joint damage. and in psa, can leave skin clear or almost clear. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin; heart attack, stroke, and gi tears occurred. people 50 and older with a heart disease risk factor have an increased risk of death. serious allergic reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. done settling? ask your rheumatologist for rinvoq. and take back what's yours. abbvie could help you save. this weekend saw a major shakeup in the business of artificial intelligence beginning on friday with the ousting of sam altman, the ceo of open a.i., the maker of chatgpt. let's bring in andrew ross sorkin. we want to talk about janet yellen. i really want an update on elon musk. first, let's talk about artificial intelligence in our top story. >> this is probably one of the wildest business stories that i've covered in years and possibly the most important story, at least of today, if not for a very long time, which is to say open a.i. is possibly one of the most important companies in america and the world given where it is in terms of artificial intelligence, how far ahead it is relative to every other company in the world and, frankly, not only how innovative the technology is, but how potentially dangerous the technology is. is we saw over the weekend this very bizarre situation where the ceo, one of the founders, is effectively ousted from the company. it's a very interesting structure. this is a not for profit that oversees a for profit institution with the mission not necessarily to make the most amount of money, but to do what they think is the safest and best thing, given the dangers of this technology. they oust sam altman. then they come back and say, well, actually we'd like you to come back because we're worried the whole company is going to go under. then microsoft, which has a deal with the company, comes in and says, actually, we'll take you sam altman. sam altman and greg brockman will go to microsoft. literally this morning in the last 25 minutes, 500 employees of open a.i. have signed a petition saying that the board should resign and sam altman and greg brockman need to come back to the company and interestingly the person seeking to oust sam altman on the board signed the same letter. it's all playing out, oddly, on twitter where sam altman and others are hearting each other's tweets here. it speaks about the governance of one of the most important technologies that have come around in decades and the fact that only a handful of people are in charge of all of this. >> really quickly, i want to jump to twitter, which i guess is x now. but elon musk trying to say the fact that he's anti-semitic is bogus and a number of marketing leaders are calling on linda yaccarino to quit. what's going on? >> yes. there were the comments made by elon musk last week that a lot of people said were anti-semitic. he said there was a misunderstanding and he is not anti-semitic and those comments were not to suggest as such. there's a separate matter, which is what led the advertisers to start to walk, which was a report by media matters about posts that next to advertising that were anti-semitic, not elon musk's posts, that is. now you have advertisers stepping away. and linda yaccarino to step down. she's saying she's not stepping down. interestingly, the head of the adl came out in support of elon musk over the weekend. that's a real shift. we'll see how that plays out. >> interesting. we're watching all of this. as we said, moments from now lawyers for donald trump and the justice department are set to square off in washington inside this federal appeals court over the gag order in that election interference case. we're going to bring you live audio from inside the courtroom, next. bring you live audio from inside the courtroom, next ncreasing as more and more businesses move to the cloud. - so, the question is... - cyber attack! as cyber criminals expand their toolkit, we must expand as well. we need to rethink... next level moments, need the next level network. [speaker continues in the background] the network with 24/7 built-in security. chip? at&t business. i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york. m ana cabrera rep from new york. any moment now a high-stakes hearing is going to begin at this d.c. courthouse. lawyers for donald trump and special counsel jack smith will be arguing over a gag order in the president's federal election interference case. that gag order was put in place last month by the judge in this case tanya chutkan. it is currently paused. trump wants that gag order permanently lifted, arguing it's a violation of his first amendment rights. we won't have eyes on this hearing, because cameras aren't allowed in the courtroom, but we will have ears because live audio is allowed. it will begin any minute. we have a whole team of reporters and analysts standing by. nbc's ken dilanian is outside

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