represented, it's far more likely. >> you are absolutely. right charles, i am going to go. you've got a show to do. have a good show. >> indeed i do, thank you so much. i appreciated my friend. congratulations, good job today. >> thanks, charles. nks, charles good morning, it's sunday november 19th. i'm charles coleman junior, filling in this morning for my friend and colleague ali velshi. unfortunately, ali tested positive this morning for covid, and we are wishing him a very speedy recovery. we begin this morning with a litany of legal matters that donald trump faces in the week ahead. less than 24 hours from now, the panel of judges in the court of appeals in d.c. we'll hear arguments regarding the gag order filed against the former president in his federal election interference case. now recall, that order was originally imposed last month by the presiding judge tanya chutkan to stop trump from making incendiary comments relating to the case. these comments included threats against potential witnesses. attorneys with the special prosecutor's office say the gag order is necessary to ensure fair trials, because trump's unrestrained comments could prejudice their case. it's common sense, talking about it with witnesses, you have a huge platform, we can only imagine what happens. you will actually be able to hear the proceedings yourself, because the audio is going to be livestreamed online beginning at 9:30 am tomorrow. this is a must listen. this whole issue has now taken on a picnic it -- as the former president's recent speeches and social media posts have grown more and more alarming and unrestrained. tomorrow's hearing should not be confused with the other gag order, in one of the other cases against the former president that he is also appealing. on thursday, an appeals court in new york temporary lifted the gag order placed on trump and his attorneys in the civil fraud case that is currently in trial right here in manhattan. that gag order, now as it was, came from judge engoron, and prevents trump and his legal team from making comments against the courts stuff after they previously and repeatedly targeted his law clerk in and out of the courtroom. they accused her of bias, and having a basic presidents against the former president. this gag order is going to remain paused, at least until november 27th, when the full panel of appeals court judges will convene to consider the matter. but see, here's the thing about it. within hours of that gag order being lifted on thursday, donald trump went back to predictably being donald trump. he repeatedly attacked ignorance clerk again, calling her quote, politically biased, and out of control. so very interesting, and rich, when you consider the source. joining me now is a professor of history and american studies at yale university, and author of fields of blood, violence in congress and the row civil war. also with, us is jack, senior correspondent for vox, covering challenges to democracy and white wing populism. zak, i want to start with you. you wrote an article last week with the headline, quote, when trump tells you he's an authoritarian, believe him. in its, you wrote, quote, trump is talking like a fascist, planning fascist policies, and staffing up with fascists. while a second trump term is vanishing lee unlikely to produce an openly fascist, state that's not really how authoritarian modes of democracwork today. it's quite plausible that they could do extensive, even fatal damage, to the american system, by pulling the right policy levels. his ideological positioning is a signal of intent. trump is coming for american democracy. no one can say they weren't warned. those are very, very strong words. beyond trump's increasingly alarming speeches, what are the red flags that you think people should be paying attention to? >> so, in the past few weeks, there have been a series of reports on the policy planning process in the second trump administration. which means, as somebody who studies democracy around the world, exceptionally alarmed. one you may have heard of is a proposal to politicize the justice department, and in a variety of different ways. to go after his political enemies. not only the justified grounds that he's being prosecuted on, but things he protects. and part of that plan, one of the proposals embedded in, it is an indication of the insurrection act, which would allow him to use the military against protesters. if there were protests against these particular policy positions. there's others. there is a proposal to -- i'm not exaggerating here, round up enough immigrants that the current detention system would not be able to hold them, and they would be placed in detention camps. another proposal would have them replacing as many as 50,000 career civil servants with, from a list of trump allies put together, something called project 2025 and other conservative movements. that would be a fundamental reorientation of the federal government and federal bureaucracy, to be something that acts on trump's will. so when you put all of these policy proposals together, this isn't like trump's first term, where he came in and he didn't know what he was doing, there were adults in the room who restrained his behavior. here he's got a bunch of very organized professional people with detailed policy proposals that could be enacted on day one. this reminds me very much a victor -- anti-democratic politician in the west today. and it's something that i think should really be alarming people. >> you know, zak, i'll tell you what it reminds me of as a huge star wars fan, and i've said this on air before. it reminds me of star wars emperor pell party, and project 2025 sounds a lot like order 66, in terms of the threat that it takes to order and democracy and what those things should be, and freedom. joe, and i want to turn to you. a lot of people would shy away from using the f-word, and it sunday, so i want to be very clear. f in this case, means fascism, we've heard that term quite a bit, in relation to criticisms that donald trump has been using fascist language. do you think that that's too strong in terms of describing it, or is it an appropriate characterization? >> i think it's a very appropriate characterization, but it's an interesting point you make about the word. because i actually think almost the opposite. i think because it's an-ism, and because it's rooted in history, some people might not take it as strongly as they should. because what we are talking about is an attack on democracy. and whether it has the f-word, and is attached to it or not, people need to take that seriously. my fear, i've been sort of speaking about this for a while, and there is now this article by zach as well. there's gonna be a lot more talk about this because this isn't going to go away, and you know, my fear is that people are going to begin to tune it out, and in a sense they can almost tune it out more easily, more readily, because it's an -ism. which feels a feral or obstruct our intellectual, and they really shouldn't. we're talking about a real threat, in our faces, and i think americans are so accustomed to thinking in a kind of except lust way about the united states, that basically will always be okay because we always have been, and that's the way the united states is. that's not practical language, it's not a practical way of reasoning right now. and we need to realize this is a moment of extreme contingency, we don't know what's going to happen, and we could wake up and we could step forward and we could take action, and we could help push things in a better direction, or we can not, and it's very possible some very bad things are going to happen. >> you know, i talked to so many people who are really in disbelief of where we are, and i think haven't grasp how deep this rabbit hole could actually go. zak, i want to talk to you and really set the scene. yesterday, madison, wisconsin. we have a group of people who are actually walking down the street, waving swastika flags, and doing not see salutes. this is in broad daylight. there is no confusion in terms of where these people stand, or how emboldened they are. what does that tell you about the rise of fascism, and how white supremacist groups are feeling right now in this moment? >> so, my understanding of actions like fringe movements -- of fringe movements of that sort, is that what they're doing is trying to push the boundaries of what can be acceptable in public life. a bunch of people marching around with swastika flags, they don't represent the trump administration or trump voters. that's not how the nature of the authoritarian threat operates. but when you see this kind of uprising, what it tells you is that there's a component of the american fringe that feels like mainstream politics has shifted in a way that allow them to express their views publicly. and they're going to push and push on that door, and you know there's a long history of american far-right movements trying to do this, from the american not see party, try -- all right in the mid 20 twins, and so when you see these kind of explicit neo-fascist protests, what it tells me is that there's a sensation that their politics is going to be tolerated, and is even at least somewhat reflected in the mainstream character of american politics. and that -- is >> zach, i want to pull up on you very quickly. do you think that it was something about donald trump that actually gave them that impression? was it just his general presence in terms of being unconventional and bombastic and sort of not politically correct, that made them feel that they could do that? or do you believe that it was something that he actually said, or was it his actual rhetoric that did it, or some combination of both? >> i would say both, but i think the latter is more important. there are plenty of bombastic american politicians, but very few of them have used the extreme language that trump has used, and use the kind of tropes that trump has employed. and that, i mean you can look directly at the way that certain far-right leaders have discussed trump, and certain other figures associated with the trumpist movement like tucker carlson. you have people talking about how these guys will mainstream their ideas, do a better job articulating them than they've ever done. the rhetoric from the recent speech where trump referred to his political opponents as vernon, to the time -- synagogue shooting, very similar ideas. those to the once expressed by the shooter before he carried out the worst antisemitic massacre in american history. it creates a permission structure for extreme right politics to take away restraints. >> joe, and i want to -- i'll let you finish with the last thought. i had a question for you, but if you want to add, go ahead. >> i want to add, because it's probably going to be along the lines of what you are going to ask. what we're talking about here is the normalization of things that should not be normalized. pushing the envelope is the way of normalizing things, and what we're seeing is not normal. it's not normal in a functional democracy, and that's the message that people should take away from this. >> i totally agree, i was going to ask you, and i think you sort of alluded to that as you said. in terms of congress now being on this long stretch of business that they've been in d.c., it has become increasingly tense, and there are more threats there as well. so they're not just talking about threats to democracy as some sort of ideological institution, they're talking about threats to the people who are actually supposed to uphold these institutions, and that is a very ominous sign when it comes to -- >> their supposed to represent us. >> absolutely. that was joanne freeman, professor of history at yale university, and zach peacham, senior correspondent at fox who covers challenges to democracy and right-wing populism. thank you both for helping us get started this sunday morning. now, coming, up 2024 is creeping up. while much attention is being paid to the republican field of candidates, there will also be a democratic national convention in exactly nine months. it's a tradition to unify the party under one ticket, but what happens if that unity is not there? the question, coming up. the history of contested conventions in the united states. plus, nbc news has learned that u.s. israel and hamas negotiations are closing in on a deal that would release some of the hostages, in exchange for a pause in fighting. but, how likely is that deal in terms of what's going to get done? we will get the latest, next. i'm charles coleman junior, and you're watching velshi on msnbc. o msnbc. msnbc. no, not that talk. about what the future looks like. for me. i may have trouble getting around, but i want to live in my home where i'm comfortable and my friends are nearby. i can do it with the help of a barber, personal shopper and exercise buddy. someone who can help me live right at home. life's good. when you have a plan. ♪ ♪ hi, i'm todd. i'm a veteran of 23 years. i served three overseas tours. i love to give back to the community. i offer what i can when i can. i started noticing my memory was slipping. i saw a prevagen commercial and i did some research on it. i started taking prevagen about three years ago. i feel clearer in my thoughts, my memory has improved and generally just more on point. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. ♪ we're building a better postal service. with easy, more affordable ways to ship. so you can deliver even more holiday joy. the united states postal service. delivering for america. travis, did you know you can get this season's covid-19 shot when you get your flu shot? huh. two things at once. two things at once! ♪ two things at once. i'll have the... ...two things at once, please. now back to two things at once. ♪ two things at once. that's not two things at once. moooom! travis? ask about getting this season's covid-19 shot when getting your flu shot. you're probably not easily persuaded to switch ask mobile providersis se for your business.t but what if we told you it's possible that comcast business mobile can save you up to 75% a year on your wireless bill versus the big three carriers? it's true. plus when you buy your first line of mobile, you get a second line free. there are no term contracts or line activation fees. and you can bring your own device. oh, and all on the most reliable 5g mobile network nationwide. wireless that works for you. >> welcome back. it's not just possible, it's happening. i'm charles coleman junior, in this morning for ali velshi. we have brand-new developments this morning in the israel-hamas war. sources familiar with hostage negotiations have confirmed to nbc news that american israeli and hamas negotiators are close to a deal that would release some of the hostages held in gaza, in exchange for a pause in fighting. the two sources, a diplomat and a second unnamed source stressed, however, that nothing has been finalized yet. which means any potential deal could still fall apart. john finer, deputy national security adviser, told my colleague kristen walker today on meet the press that this is the closest they've been to any agreement so far. >> what i can say at this point is that some of the upstanding areas of disagreement in a very complicated, very sensitive negotiation have been narrowed. then i believe we're closer to what we've been in quite some time, closer than we've been since the beginning of this process to get this deal done. we're following this minute by minute, hour by hour, and have been for a number of weeks, up to and including the president, for whom this is a major priority. but at this point, we really need to adhere to the mantra that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. sensitive negotiations like this can fall apart at the last minute. >> now there were about 240 hostages taken by hamas during its october 7th attack inside israel. that attack killed approximately 1200 people. meanwhile, the situation in gaza's largest hospital continues to deteriorate, united nations teams visiting al-shifa hospital on saturday described it as a quote, death zone. the team, led by the world health organization, says that 291 patients were left at al-shifa hospital at after israeli troops forced about 2500 palestinians to evacuate on sunday morning. those left behind, including 30 babies in extremely critical condition. patients with severely infected wounds, and others with spinal injuries who were unable to move. the palestinian red crescent now says 31 babies from al-shifa hospital have crossed the rafah crossing into egypt. joining me now from tel aviv is nbc's erin mclaughlin. aaron, do you know anything more about the hostage negotiation? what can you tell us. >> first charles, i want to explain that there is a massive storm currently hitting tel aviv, which explains the wind and the rain that you see behind me. hostage negotiations that you were just talking about have been going on for weeks now, and this weekend we're hearing from two of the parties, qatar and the united states, involved in the negotiations. sounding somewhat optimistic, you had mentioned the nfc's -- are telling meet the press is kristen -- that the outstanding areas disagreement have narrowed, that this is the closest they've been to an agreement, and that the number of hostages he said that they're talking about in a potential deal is far greater than 12, and also talking about a multi day pause in the fighting. now, earlier today, we heard from the qatari prime minister in joe say that he is also optimistic about a potential deal. he said that the upstanding issues in his view we're more about logistics then big differences. remember, qatar is seen as a key conduit to hamas, and all of this is happening as the israeli prime minister has come under increasing pressure to make a deal. just yesterday, thousands of israelis took to the streets in a march from jerusalem to tel aviv, to pressure the governments to put the hostages first, as this war continues. charles? >> erin, what more do we know about the actual evacuation of the al-shifa hospital? >> yes, some very good news out of gaza city this morning. according to the palestinian red cross france and the w.h.o., they managed to evacuate more than 30 of those premature babies that had to be removed just days ago from their incubators inside of al-shifa hospital. doctors they're saying that they thought the babies had died, and that they were taken out of their incubators. earlier this morning, there were pictures released on video showing that babies were being evacuated. we understand now they were brought to a hospital in the south, where they have been put back into incubators. meanwhile, this desperate situation continues at al-shifa hospital. a question mark over what they're going to evacuate the remaining patients, critically ill patients, as well as doctors. the w.h.o. says they're now working on that, but it's unclear where those patients could go, given that many of the hospitals to the south of gaza are completely overrun with patients. >> erin, thank you so much for your reporting. we will continue to monitor the situation. that was erin maclachlan from and d.c. in tel aviv. and on the other side of this break, we continue with this conversation, having a journalist who's been covering israel and the region for decades join us for more discussion. charles coleman junior, and this is velshi on msnbc. velshi on msnbc. velshi on msnbc. the effects can seem like magic. but there's no magic involved. 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>> i'm not sure, hi charles. i haven't personally done polling, but it's even more remarkable than what your introductory comment implies, because that poll is the first poll conducted only among jewish israelis. that is about 78% of the total population. and among jews, that 4%. among right-wing, self to find right-wing voters, only 6.6% trusted him to lead israel in this war. so, you know, i think we have to say that his situation is very tenuous. nonetheless, he remains the prime minister and he remains in power. >> now, we have violence that continues to escalate in the west bank. what do you tell us about that, and the consequence of the tensions boiling over to that region, when we are talking about the west bank? >> the consequences could be pretty catastrophic, if this continues. there are several kinds of violence taking place. the israeli army has been conducting numerous raids against hamas targets, palestinian islamic jihad targets, many of these were focused on the city of jenin, where hamas is the most powerful force. many people have been arrested, i can't give you the exact number right now but we're talking about over 1000, i think, now. most of those are in what's called administrative detention, so they haven't yet been charged. there has been a real spike in violence of israeli jewish settlers in the west bank, against palestinians. and at the same time, there has been a spike of lethal violence by palestinians against israeli figures. in some cases, soldiers, in other cases, civilians. so it's a tinderbox, and that's the reason that the biden administration pretty much daily now is telling the israeli prime minister that this has to be put under control. >> i want to circle back to the original point that you made, surrounding the very unpopular reputation that netanyahu now has among many israelis. is there a political backlash, that is threatening, because of his decisions here, and how he's handling the situation, and if so, what does that backlash actually look like? >> well, he was a very unpopular prime minister when this started. on october 6th, one day before the attack, netanyahu enjoy -- had positive numbers, among 27% of israelis. so let's start with that. and since then, his handling of the war, and mostly, i have to say, his failure to communicate to israeli citizens what this war is achieving, what israel is doing to get hostages back home. his real has about 240 hostages being held, almost all of them are civilians. and what you have is a splintering of his really public opinion. so even among families of the hostages, you have people who say stop the war. cease-fire immediately, you could be killing our own loved ones. and you have others who feel that the military destruction of hamas puts pressure on the organization to release the hostages. and i think almost all of them feel much more confidence in the military operation than they do in the government right now. >> really quickly, before we go, there is now new conversation from u.s. officials about an old conversation regarding a potential future two state solution, but it does not seem like israeli or palestinian officials basically support the same interest or have the same degree of faith, in terms of being able to accomplish the. is a two state solution something that is obtainable, given everything that is going on and what's on the table right now? >> look, i think that the terror attack on october 7th and the subsequent war have completely thrown all the cards here into the air. so it's very hard for me to predict. but the fact of the matter is even while palestinian and israeli officials say no, they are leaving themselves wiggle room for a possible pivot to the american position. or at least, to negotiations towards the american position. so i think we have to just keep paying attention. >> thank you for the conversation, and the commentary. that was nova, an independent journalist with decades of experience, covering the israeli palestinian conflict. coming up, interested a third party option is at a 30 year high in america. but what would that actually mean for the presidential race in this crucial year with democracy on the line? we'll have that discussion and more, after a short break. you're watching velshi, on msnbc. watching velshi, on msnbc. msnbc. ur goals with j.p. morgan wealth plan, a digital money coach in the chase mobile® app. use it to set and track your goals, big and small... and see how changes you make today... could help put them within reach. from your first big move to retiring poolside - and the other goals along the way. wealth plan can help get you there. ♪ j.p. morgan wealth management. the new subway mvp rewards earns you points for every order. this mvp uses it for free subs. you can use your points for anything. like free cookies. whoa, peyton. what — i'm not playing anymore. join now and get a free cookie when you buy a sub. shingles. some describe it as pulsing electric shocks or sharp, stabbing pains. ♪♪ this painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks. a pain so intense, you could miss out on family time. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. if you're 50 years or older, ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles. 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( ♪ ♪ ) start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. >> welcome back. you're watching velshi on msnbc, and i'm charles coleman junior, filling in for my colleague ali velshi today. now, there are a lot of special conversations that were engaged in, but this one for me, as a political nerd, was really, really exciting. there are several third-party candidates who have already declared for the 2024 presidential election, and that is even growing larger. after telling the country he would not run for reelection to the senate, the moderates west virginia democrat joe manchin told meet the press moderator christian walker that he would quote, absolutely consider launching a white house bid. the public interest in a third party option reaching a 30 year high, nbc's vaughn takes a look at the potential impact that a candidate of this kind could have on the race. >> with the 2024 election less than a year away, early polling is already pointing to a joe biden donald trump rematch. but this time around, they may not be alone on the ballots. >> are you considering running for president? >> i will do anything i can to help our country. >> is that a yes? >> does that mean you would consider? it absolutely. >> if west virginia senator joe manchin jumps into the race as a third party candidate, who joined a crowded field. >> please, come join us. >> like progressive activist cornell west, a close ally of bernie sanders, and former democrat robert f. kennedy junior, all looking to disrupt the traditional two horse election race. >> i want to spoil it for both of them. >> only a third of the general electorate say they are enthusiastic about a biden or trump run, and an international poll this month, showed rfk junior polling at 22% in a three way matchup against the front runners. >> there could not be a more ripe year for an independent candidate to take away enough votes to tip the election to a major party candidates, who otherwise might not have one. >> democrats especially for a repeat of 2016, when hillary clinton narrowly lost several key states. a significant number of voters instead choosing third-party options. among them, green party candidate -- who just announced she's running again. >> the ruling parties that got us into this mess aren't getting us out. >> but the third-party spoiler has long played a role in american politics. >> thank you. >> in 2000, ralph won just -- >> the popular vote now, take a look at this. >> many democratic operatives blamed him from siphoning democratic voters. >> there will be a lot of finger pointing about the poor showing of gore. >> in 1992, independent perot captured significant support, when a 19% of the vote. >> i don't have any spin doctors. >> and in 1968, third party candidate george wallace even won several states in the deep south. >> people now realize how often in history an independent candidate has elected someone else as president, that there are now efforts to game the system. >> polling suggests the country has not been disinterested in third party candidates since the 1990s, with the political group no labels already raising more than $70 million on a potential third party ticket. >> why not give people a choice, if they don't want these two choices? >> but for all the concerns from both parties around third-party game and ship, history says their impact is tough to predict. >> there's no way to know whether an independent candidate will help one major candidates or the other. the ball has bounced in all sorts of directions, and there could be a very big surprise. >> our thanks to nbc's vaughn hillyard for that report. you may be wondering, for a political junkie, why was that an exciting conversation? a give you a couple reasons. number one, the history. number two, disrupters placed pressure on the system and cause change. but the third reason, you're gonna have to wait for on the other side of this break. we'll be discussing a tradition that dates back 140 years, democratic national convention, and what a contested convention could potentially look like. and there have been times where even as a moment of solidarity, the democratic convention doesn't mean that's all is well. we're going to take a look at all of that, coming up after a short break when we are right back with velshi on msnbc. stay tuned. lshi on msnbc. stay tuned stay tuned what causes a curve down there? is it peyronie's disease? will it get worse? how common is it? who can i talk to? can this be treated? stop typing. start talking to a specialized urologist. because it could be peyronie's disease, or pd. it's a medical condition where there is a curve in the erection, caused by a formation of scar tissue. and an estimated 1 in 10 men may have it. but pd can be treated even without surgery. say goodbye to searching online. find a specialized urologist who can diagnose pd and build a treatment plan with you. visit makeapdplan.com today. >> welcome to velshi -- exactly nine months from today, the 2024 democratic national convention is going to kick off in chicago. this convention, for the party, is a storied tradition, and has been held every election years since 1832. where delegates from all over the country come together to select their nominees for president and vice president. but the convention also serves the purpose of unifying a party under one ticket, heading into the general election. the nominees acceptance speech is a sort of launching pad for their general election campaign. the four 1968, party bosses would settle on a candidate and instruct party delegates where to cast their ballots, and primaries were just measuring sticks. they had very little outcome on who would ultimately win the nomination. most americans found out the next morning's newspaper told them who their party would be voting for president. think of it kind of like christmas for political junkies. state primaries only became a major part of the presidential process after the disastrous democratic national convention of 1968, which coincidentally was also held in chicago. these days, more conventions come and go without incident. because, basically, they are an anointment of the nominee, more than anything else. but we have had a couple of exceptions throughout history. we call these contested conventions. like i said, for those political junkies, if you are near a political junkie, get ready to be excited. a contested convention, where party delegates are not able to elect a nominee in their first ballot of voting. the last time this happened was in 1952, where it took democrats three ballots to nominate then illinois governor ad laced even. stephenson was not even a candidate when he showed up to the convention. this is where it gets juicy. he wound up losing that presidential election in a landslide, to who would become the eventual president, republican dwight d. eisenhower. but listen, if you think three ballots is bad, that record was set way, way before that, by democrats in 1924. when it took 103 ballots to nominate john w davis of west virginia. now, if i was kevin mccarthy, and this was a couple of months ago, there's no way i don't find a way to -- one of my talking points when people start talking about 15 rounds of electing a speaker. but i digress. these moments, where you have contested conventions, they're becoming increasingly rare. given the current age of president biden, which very few people want to openly talk about, and how tightly he is pulling against donald trump, and hypothetical general election matchups, there are some political insiders who believe that there is a slight possibility, even very slight, that we could see a contested convention in 2024, with the party that might be looking for an alternative plan. now, according to reporting from axios, democratic governors and senators have been quietly moving to boost their national profiles, to position them for 2028. or, moving to position themselves for 2024, if president biden unexpectedly drops out, or if anything else happens. this is essentially hedging your bets, in a case that the party could need an immediate backup plan if biden suddenly pulls out, or god forbid, something else happens, a health scare, or any other condition where we would not have the incumbent president running for reelection. we have seen governors gretchen retire, gavin newsom, and -- all viewed as rising stars in the party, having launched national political groups. newsom recently traveled to china to boost his democratic bona fides, and -- headlined the democratic party convention in june in new hampshire. yes, that's the same new hampshire, that holds the nation's first primary. surprise, surprise. plenty of crucial filing deadlines have already passed, so really, unless democratic congressman dan phillips or de phillips pulls a rabbit out of his hat, the only way for the party to pull up a new candidate would be through a contested convention, or if biden suddenly steps down. which would make things very interesting. how interesting? let's find out. we can now talk about president biden and the democratic party and how they position going into 2024, with lauren harper, he is going to join us as the cofounder of the welcome pack and the welcome party, and that's a political organization focused -- and also joining us is democratic state senator mcconnell shove all of pennsylvania. he's a member of democratic socialist of america, and the cofounder of reclaim philadelphia, a progressive political organization. good morning to you both, thank you for being here. lauren, i want to start with you. david axelrod, he was the former senior adviser to president obama. he's drawn a lot of heat from the white house, saying that biden should stop at one term and that's it. he was quoted in the new york times saying, quote, i think biden has a 50/50 shot here, but no better than that. maybe a little worse. he thinks he can cheat nature here, and it's really risky. they've got a real problem if they're counting on trump to win it for them. i remember hillary doing that too. now, there are a lot of people who are saying that axelrod has a valid point here, and that quite frankly, the strategy in 2016 around donald trump basically giving hillary clinton the election because of who he was is a failed approach. what do you make of axelrod's point here, and what do you think of his ability to say the quiet part out loud? >> yes, he's absolutely right. and we see this with the recent polling that shows that biden is trailing trump slightly among the swing states. like wisconsin and michigan. but he is right. i think a lot of voters are underwhelmed with having to do a rematch between biden and trump. they're not necessarily exciting candidates, they're not necessarily exciting the bases, and even the swing voters that we need. blueprint, an organization that's doing polling among voters across the country, found that 43% of voters think that biden is more to their left, and 43% of voters think that trump is more to that right. sorry, 41% to their right. so there's actually more people that think that biden's to the left and they think trump's to the right. so we do have a serious situation here that we need to address. but we can do this. we see that people like kentucky governor andy beshear won reelection in early november, and we see that he does that by -- and that's why the welcome party exists. how we collect more votes in the democratic electorate, by winning over moderate and independent voters. it's very possible. >> sometimes in pugilism in boxing, there are rematches that nobody wants to see. and in those rematches, the fighters or going to get paid because that's how it works. but pay-per-view and the outlets and the platforms are the ones that take the loss. in your estimation, if you had to follow up on that point in terms of neither side being incredibly excited about a rematch between trump and biden, who do you think that actually hurts more? >> oh, it absolutely hurts president biden, i would say. because the thing about president trump is that he brings out the people, right? when trump is on the ballot, he brings out more voters that would not necessarily vote otherwise. and so obviously, when you see -- even with the midterm, black voters, asian voters, hispanic voters, you see when you're not exciting the base voters that you need to get, you have to win over more swing voters. which is why biden has an incredible opportunity to move to the center on a lot of issues, and speak more about the messaging, not only that he can do, but that he's already done. he's sent more agents to the border, in the name of the president. he's done a lot with immigration, he's done a lot with oil and gas production domestically in the united states, but people are necessarily hearing about it, which is a big problem. they see his more progressive stances, like canceling student loan debt, and they're like biden's thinking about canceling student loans, but he's not addressing rising costs. -- -- so when you have that issue of people not hearing but what the president is actually doing, we see a lot of issues in terms of people coming out to vote for him. >> your in state politics in pennsylvania, so you have a familiarity with down ballot races, particularly in presidential years. when you looked at the democratic party as a whole, in a larger sense, do you think that there is more concerned at the top of the ticket, or do you think that there is a bigger issue among state and local races around how they're impacted in 2024? >> you know, i think -- i feel pretty optimistic, i would say, about state and local races in 2024. we've had a number of different special elections where democrats have way overperformed that, all of the abortion rights referenda have really gone our way, so i feel pretty sanguine about it. one thing i would say is that there's a lot of great work that speak done at a state and local level, in part thanks to the work of the biden administration. we have had the inflation reduction act, which is addressing the twin crises of the climate crisis and economic vulnerability in my home state of pennsylvania, i was able to introduce and passed legislation, the whole home repairs program, which makes it easier for homeowners in rural and suburban areas to make basic repairs to their homes, and it's planted with american rescue plan daughter. and that's being modeled across the country. so i think that we have people at every level, especially the state and local level, who are out there winning on the message or protecting rights of reversing the decline of organized labor. of ensuring that people feel hole in this country, and are becoming integrated into a vision of the future. and so again, i am excited about it. i'm excited to run on those messages, and i think we have real chances to have gains next year. >> senator, lauren was just talking about the importance of swing voters to the democratic party, and another voting bloc specifically, that the democratic party does need in order to retain the white house and to gain more traction politically. those are young voters. at the same time that you have, that there are a lot of young voters that have become disenchanted with the political system as a whole, and are not fans necessarily of biden's politics. what is it that the democratic party needs to do in order to energize and to engage that crucial demographic at the ballot box? >> frankly, you know, i think the real gains in this administration, there have been real gains in the states. but this is an election about the future, right? this is not an election about what happened in the president administration. this is an election about creating a second term vision, that no doubt builds on that history, and builds on the recent successes and fighting climate change, in fighting for infrastructure, in fighting for peoples basic abilities to pay their bills and receive unemployment, and just get through the day and have massive amount of -- those are major achievements. but what is the future? what is the administration and democrats, frankly, vision for what we are going to do in the next four years? i think that's a major concern, and i think what we should be running on. i think those things involve protecting abortion rights, protecting reproductive health, they involve fighting the climate crisis, perhaps at an even bigger scale than we've already achieved. they involve fighting the affordable housing crisis, which is affecting americans across the board. it is very little talked about. how can we do all of those things? i think we can do that, and i think we can create a vision that is clear that people can buy into and feel integrated into. >> cofounder of the welcome party and welcome back, and democratic state senator -- of pennsylvania, thank you to you both. coming up, in the next hour of velshi, a big week ahead in the many legal battles donald trump's wedding. i'm charles coleman junior, sitting in for ali velshi. another hour of velshi is coming up, after a quick break. stay right there. stay right there the power goes out and we still have wifi to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages

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