to get hurt until the movement is stopped. that is "all in" on this wednesday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. >> good evening, chris. we have in the fourth coming block a fairly robust discussion about media that is apparently changing its policies to further abet trump's lies in the contenth of what he's saying about paul pelosi and that attack. it is a combustible mix. >> it really is. thank you, my friend. and thanks to you at home for joining me this hour. before he was even elected president, donald trump had a journalists kicked out of a press conference just for asking a question. >> excuse me, sit down. you weren't called. sit down. you weren't called. >> trump looks over at his staff, a bodyguard walks over and ushers ramos out of the news conference. >> sit down, sit down, go back to univision. the journalist trump had his security kick out from that press conference was jorge ramos, one of the most prominent latino journalists in the country. he's conducted extensive interviews with george h.w. bush, george w. bush, hillary clinton, and barack obama. he's a huge deal, but donald trump wanted nothing to do with him. ramos repeatedly and publicly asked trump to sit for an interview, and trump not only declined but he posted a photo online of a letter ramos had sent him claiming that ramos and his employer univision were begging -- begging him for an interview. trump's relationship to ramos and univision stayed icy throughout his presidency. in 2020 the trump campaign even put out this press release titled univision is not a news network, it is a leftist propaganda machine and a mouthpiece of the democrat party. and that history is why it was so shocking last week when univision had an hour long interview with donald trump in which he was thrown softball questions like this one. >> talking about polls, "the new york times" siena poll came out this week. it shows you with a solid leading, but it also has you with 42% of latino voters support. that's unprecedented for a republican candidate. what do you think the message voters are sending with these numbers? >> now, the only thing weirder than asking why are you doing so well with latino voters is probably trump's response to that question. >> well, the latino voters are so incredible because they're unbelievable people. they have incredible skills, incredible energy, and they're very entrepreneural. all you have to do is look at the owners of univision. they're unbelievably entrepreneurial people and they like me. >> trump's praise of univision and its owners was strange, but things have gotten even stranger. last week semafor reported three top executives of univision and its parent company were in the room during that interview with donald trump. sometimes executives just show up when high profile interviews are happening. but this week "the washington post" reports that wasn't the only strange thing about that interview with trump. according to "the post," univision canceled a booking with president biden's hispanic media director who was scheduled to respond to the trump interview after it aired. and maybe most significantly of all, univision canceled ads that had already been purchased by the biden campaign and scheduled to run during the trump interview. univision told "the washington post" that its decision not to run those biden ads, came from an unannounced policy about opposition advertising in single candidate interviews and that there would be no trump interviews allowed if president biden gave univision an interview. so far there is no planned interview with president biden. and all week we have been getting alarming stories alleging univision has been making editorial and business decisions that seem to directly benefit donald trump. and then tonight just a few hours ago one of the network's most prominent anchors announced he has left the network. now, we should say that krauze has not yet announced why he left univision, but the timing here a day after the reporting from the "the post" about univision shifting its approach to donald trump, that timing raises some questions. because beyond the ethics questions on the table here, univision's audience matters a lot politically. last year univision had the seventh biggest network audience in all of tv. it's the most watched spanish network in the united states. univision is the channel of choice for a key demographic in this country and one that seems increasingly up for grabs in the next election. if executives really are shifting the approach to covering trump asking softball question and not pushing back on trump's lies, that could have a real impact on the 2024 election. and univision isn't the only media company that appears to be softening its approach to donald trump. today "the wall street journal" reports that meta, the parent company of facebook, threads, and instagram, quietly changed its policy to allow ads that claim past elections were stolen. and that means that the trump campaign can and is running ads that say things like this. >> we won in 2016. we had a rigged election in 2020 but got more votes than any sitting president. >> that ran as part of an ad on facebook in august. meta's old policy didn't allow ads that claim voter fraud is widespread and/or alters the outcome of elections. its new policy states that the platform doesn't allow ads that call into question the legitimacy of an upcoming or ongoing election. but past elections are apparently fair game. this follows youtube in june announcing it has similarly stopped removing claims of widespread fraud in the 2020 election. so feel free to -- it's unclear why a company like meta believes trump's false claim about the 2020 election being stolen is all about the past because clearly that big lie is laying the groundwork for the next election in 2024. here is donald trump yet again stoking fears about election fraud in another ad, one that is still live right now on instagram. >> but it may also be the last election we ever have. if this election doesn't work, if this election is rigged and stolen, if bad things happen, our country will not survive. we will have become a dictatorship where your president is chosen for you. you will no longer have a vote or certainly won't have a meaningful vote, and you could say, frankly, that has already begun. >> joining me now is a national political reporter covering campaigns and the white house for "the washington post." michael, it's great to see you. thank you for being here tonight. there are a lot of questions i have about the sort of relationship that has developed between donald trump and the owners of arguably the most important spanish language channel in the united states. can you talk a bit more about your reporting? >> yeah, there were a number of unusual things. you mentioned a couple of them. another one that you didn't mention is that jared kushner, the president's son-in-law who has not been involved this time in former president trump's campaign unlike his two previous runs did kind of intervene with the campaign this time according to our reporting, surprising some people inside the campaign to help setup this interview. and that's notable because during the trump administration one of the executives who was there when former president trump praised them at mar-a-lago was a guy named bernardo gomez who is a senior executive of tellavisa in mexico city who hosted a dinner between jared kushner and the mexican president during the trump administration. a lot of the concern about this is tel avisa has a long record in that country. and univision when it was established in the united states very intentionally defined itself against that. it tried to set itself up as an american style news network going to talk truth to power and be aggressive. and for years there's been a give-and-take. a lot of the programming on univision are tell avisa'stela novellas which are really popular. now you have this blending which has caused significant consternation in that newsroom in miami. >> do you have insight into leon krauze who departed univision this evening. we don't know why. is it potentially related to these changes? >> we don't know why. the timing is notable. the verb he used in his statement is my time with univision is concluded. the only statement that tel avisa univision put out simply congratulated him for his time and wished him best of luck in his next endeavor. i think this is right now a very much an open question. it is true there's been financial concerns from univision according to a number of people, there's fear of layoffs coming in the future. but there's no indication that was the reason. he's the only person as far as our reporting can tell who was let go yesterday or resigned. we don't know. and so we're -- we're going to continue to pursue that. >> and no word yet from jorge ramos who, of course, is sort of the gold standard for interviewing as far as univision's interviewers for presidential sit downs. i've got to ask about the biden ads that were polled conveniently for donald trump and inconveniently for president biden. is there a further detail on whether there's going to be a biden sit down, whether that was part of donald trump's ask in order to give univision the sit down interview with him? >> we don't know why the ads were pulled. we do know from univision they said it wasn't the newsroom that made that decision. it was a corporate decision from above them. presumably somebody didn't like the look of an ad running like that. it is typical to have opposition ads run like during a presidential debate you'll have a democratic ad run during a republican debate, but univision set its standard here. what is interesting it's worth noting this wasn't just a normal interview. they took out the 10:00 p.m. hour last thursday, which is their highest rated hour. it's an hour fortela novellas. they promoted this rt view all that day and did it the next day. this was sort of like a network special. it was happening for -- donald trump was the leading republican candidate but is not the republican nominee for president right now. now, univision has said they made a number of requests to speak with president biden. the biden campaign said they had not received a request until after that interview, the campaign itself and no request mentioned an hourlong sit down. i think that's another shoe going to drop, how the biden campaign and univision figure out how to move forward from this point because there's clearly a lot of anger on the biden side. >> right, anger that is complicating given the fact that biden still very much needs to speaks the univision's audience. michael, great reporting. thank you so much for being here tonight. >> thank you. it is not difficult to see why the developments at univision could be problematic for the biden campaign. according to the latest "the new york times" sienna poll it's an 8 point margin, which is fairly close given the new reporting from "the new york times" about trump's plans for a second term including his pledge to launch the largest deportation effort in u.s. history by, quote, preparing an enormous expansion of a form of removal that does not require due process hear lgz and by creating massive camps to hold immigrants while they await removal. but there is one man who remains quite confident in president biden's re-election, the man behind barack obama's successful 2020 re-election campaign. he's with me now. and of course as we just said the man who successfully ran president obama's 2012 re-election campaign. great to see you. i first wonder what your reaction is to the news we have, the new reporting about the ways in which media, and not just univision but social media as well may be changing policies in a fashion that could directly help donald trump and certainly provide a bigger platform for his lies. >> it's incredibly concerning, right? i mean these are some of the things that happened in 2016 when donald trump got elected the first time. he clearly misused facebook and other things. there were apologies made but the damg to democracy is real. now people are hedging their bets and starting tochange policies with the theory donald trump could actually win this election. it is incredly concerning the same company are now starting to do this all over again. >> i wonder what you make of as we talk about univision and its audience of latino voters, how much the biden campaign should be ringing the alarm bells in terms of its support among voters of color. i believe it's 42% of hispanic voters leaning towards trump, 50% leaning towards biden among black voters. is that a function of trump just basically being in a courtroom most of the time and not on the stump in a more public way saying the same sort of demagogic, xenophobic things he did for his four years as president? and is that sort of amnesia? what is that? >> oh, you're exactly right. people have forgotten how bad and crazy this guy is because he's naught been on the stage. right now biden is comparing biden to the almighty, but next year there'll be an actual choice between two candidates. until that happens, i don't think you're going to see much movement in the polls. you and i have talked before about my concern and criticism of polls this far-out. it's a year before an election. they're historically wrong. barack obama was put on the cover this week during his re-election ten years ago by "the new york times" magazine who said he had a 17% chance to win and that he was toast, and clearly he won that election handily. i'm not concerned about the polls. i am concerned we get our message out, and that's why i think the biden campaign is doing exactly what they should be doing. they have really big bys in the african american and latino community right now and i think that's smart. i think it shows you how serious they are taking these issues. >> i want to circle back to that in a second, but you have a piece in plit quo that's basically like stop bedwetting, democrats. i'm paraphrasing here. and you talk about the x. factors, the black swan events that are inevtale somewhere on the calender next year. one of the things you talk about is trump and the criminal trials. will trump go to prison? it's possible. can you campaign from behind bars. i wouldn't call these october surprises. you can almost guarantee something big and unexpected will happen next year. the polling shows a conviction for trump would maybe be enough to swing the election to biden. how much should democrats think about that as they move forward in the coming months? >> they shouldn't. because what i learned running a presidential campaign, alex, and being in the white house you can't plan for a black swan event. you have to control your message and do the things you have to do. what we have to do is have an economic message that makes sense, focus on turning our base out and not worry about what's happening with donald trump. we can't control the myriad trials and 92 felony counts, and you can't assume those things are going to happen. you know, some of them are going to happen, but what you can do is control your own narrative and run your own plays, and that's the kind of sugar rush donald trump presents as a threat to democrats because you could just whale away on him every single day and it's fun and makes you feel better, but it doesn't talk about what you're going to do to make the country better. and i give the president credit, he's trying to stay to that message, but it's hard. >> axios is reporting that the biden campaign is not investing in door-to-door sort of ground game strategy in the same way that, for example, barack obama did, and they're effectively putting most of their money behind tv and digital ads. is that a mistake? >> i don't think that's going to be the plan next year. i think right now -- and i gave them this advice, too. you know, although i love the campaign i ran and we won an election, if i had to do it over again, we probably spent too much money on the ground in the off-year. and so i think they're going to hold that money. they're going to go massive ground operation next year. they have people who really know how to do this. and i think they'll do that, but they're going to do it the appropriate time. right now they're doing what i think they should be doing and talking to the african american and youth communities about what this president has done and save the ground game for next year. >> talking to some of them on channels that do not rhyme with suunivision. thank you for your time. coming up president biden takes questions on the israel-hamas war tonight on west coast as capitol police in washington, d.c. say they are making arrests and responding to approximately 150 people who are illegally and violently protesting outside the democratic national committee building. that is next. shingles. some describe it as pulsing electric shocks or sharp, stabbing pains. ♪♪ this painful, blistering rash can disrupt your life for weeks. a pain so intense, you could miss out on family time. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. if you're 50 years or older, ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingles. in order for small businesses to thrive, if you're 50 years or older, they need to be smart, efficient, savvy. making the most of every opportunity. that's why comcast business is introducing the small business bonus. for a limited time you can get up to a $1000 prepaid card with qualifying internet. yep, $1000. so switch to business internet from the company with the largest fastest reliable network and that powers more businesses than anyone else. learn how you can get $1000 back for your business today. comcast business. powering possibilities. i'm not a fortune teller. i can't tell you how long it's going to last, but i can tell you i don't think it ultimately ends until there's a two-state solution. i've made it clear to the israelis i think it's a big mistake they're going to occupy gaza and maintain gaza. i don't think that works. >> that was president biden in the last hour speaking about the ongoing war between israel and hamas while over in washington, d.c. outside the national democratic committee headquarters u.s. capitol police have been making arrests responding to approximately 150 people who are protesting calling for a cease-fire in gaza. capitol police claim the protesters were demonstrating illegally and violently. nbc news has not yet verified that claim. this comes as 24 democrats in congress today are calling on president biden to seek that cease-fire. we write to you, they say, to express deep concern about the intensifying war in gaza particularly grave violations against children and our fear without the immediate cessation of hostilities and robust bilateral cease-fire, this war will further lead to loss of civilian life and risk dragging the united states into dangerous and unwise conflict with armed groups across the middle east. joining me now is one of the members who signed that letter calling for a cease-fire, congresswoman pramila jayapal. let me first get your reaction to president biden statements saying he made it clear to the israelis saying it's a big mistake to think they're going to ocpay and maintain gaza and reiterating he believes this ends with a two-state solution. >> well, alex, i think that was important for him to make it clear israel occupying gaza is not going to help anything. it's only going to make things worse. it's not tolerable from a united states perspective, but i would like to see the president being stronger in his comments. some of his comments in the past days were stronger than i've heard tonight. i think it's important for the united states to be clear as the president has said before that israel needs to follo