including a new threat from the former president. donald trump much like richard nixon openly opining about using the power of the federal government against his political enemies. his efforts to weaponize the justice system if he returns to office already underway. plus, the lawyer defending paul pelosi's attacker in court not denying he did it but arguing that david depape's decision to break into the pelosi house was fueled by conspiracy theories. he believed he was disrupting a corrupt, liberal network of child abusers, and believed it, according to his lawyer, with, quote, every ounce of his being. and the ongoing threats against elections. the latest on the fbi investigation after envelopes containing fentanyl, at least some of them had fentanyl in them, were sent to election workers in five states. one had a note inside that read end elections now. so we're going to cover all those stories this hour. we begin with former president trump insisting that if he's reelected, he'd be justified in using the powers of the presidency to go after his critics and perceived enemies, effectively a deliberate campaign of retribution unlike anything we've seen in 50 years. the former president who continues to claim without evidence that president biden is behind his indictments issuing this warning to anyone who might dare to get in his way. >> they've released the genie out of the box, you understand that. they've done something that nobody thought would happen. they've done indictments in order to win an election. they call it weaponization, and the people aren't going to stand for it, but yeah, they have done something that allows the next party. i mean, if somebody -- if i happen to be president and i see somebody who's doing well and beating me very badly, i said go down and indict them, mostly thatould be, you know, they would be out of business. they'd be out. they'd be out of the election. >> his comments coming just days after "the washington post" reported that trump told friends he wants to use the justice department to go after former members of his own administration who have been critical of his actions people like his former chief of staff john kelly and attorney general bill barr. president biden telling supporters at a chicago fundraiser last night, quote, the same man who said we should terminate rules and regulations and articles of the constitution is now running to end democracy as we know it. he's not even hiding it. all of it eerily reminiscent of this, richard nixon's infamous enemies list. the white house special counsel at the time noting the plan was to use the machinery of the government to, quote, screw our political enemies. one part of a mass conspiracy that eventually led to nixon's resignation in 1974. nearly 50 years later, it's unclear if donald trump's supporters even care. right now i'm joined by matthew dowd, msnbc political analyst, with me in studio, nbc's vaughn hillyard who's been covering donald trump, and jen palmieri, an msnbc political analyst. welcome all of you, jennifer, why don't at least more people seem to care? what is it about politics today that what was disqualifying 50 years ago in some ways barely registers a blip. >> the problem for trump supporters, and i was in hialeah wednesday night at trump's rally. hialeah is a largely hispanic community. i talked to a lot of hispanic supporters. they think what we fear that having a president who is willing to, you know, end democracy as we know it, by using -- by weaponizing the justice department, they believe that's already happened, and part of -- i talked to somebody who was organizing hispanics for republicans, he felt that his trump support in south florida was growing because people who had left venezuela or cuba because of concerns about authoritarian leaders, this is very familiar to them, for a political -- for a political opponent to go after them and try to, you know, put them in jail or use the judicial system against them as they see biden, they think biden's doing that to trump. they're like we've seen it before. that's what we escaped, we can't let it happen here. so the truly perverse thing isn't that people don't think it's wrong. it's that they think it's already happening. >> so i'm wondering, vaughn, you talked to a lot of voters as well, does it every come up whether what he says is constitutional, legal, ethical? >> jen is absolutely right, i was there with her at that rally and the number of times we looked at each other knowingly throughout an event like this is something because we've having such similar conversations. we saw what happened on january 6th. folks are willing to go to bat for the man, right? and i don't know what comes next, but we know that there are legions of folks out there, millions of them that believe the conspiracies that not only is joe biden but members of his administration, members of the military are out to undermine the maga movement. i want to let you just listen to one man. i can't tell you the number of conversations like this that take part at rallies every time i go. take a listen. >> okay. when you say go after them, what do you mean? >> arrest them, imprison them for violating our constitution. >> how do you do that? >> police are probably witness. >> you mean the police will be on the side of --? >> of the patriots. they sure will. they haven't been corrupted yet as far as i know. >> that's an actual civil war that you're talking about? >> oh, yeah. >> you believe that the election was stolen in 2020? >> absolutely. plain as the nose on your face. >> in their minds, to jen's point, the constitution has already been violated. now it's their turn with donald trump in the white house to take revenge. >> so i want to go back to something that the former president said, matthew, which is the genie is out of the box. i think he meant bottle, but anyway, the is the genie out of the bottle in this case? are you ever going to convince some of those people of the truth, that the justice department has not been weaponized, that there is no proof it has been weaponized? is it too late? >> well, the problem is the ecosystem of information these voters get. they're never hearing anything that's rational, and so i mean, i actually feel sorry for a lot of these voters because they're being told over and over and over again whether it's on breitbart, fox news, whatever the sort of places of information they're gathering it is they're being told that that's what it is and that's a fact, which is why 70% of gop voters believe the election was stolen. they still believe that in spite of all the information in the course of this. i think that's the problem, that's -- i mean, donald trump -- i think the ship of the republican party was already moving towards sort of the ends justify the means, we can do whatever we want in order to achieve our goals in autocracy, it was already moving in that direction for the last 15 years or so. what donald trump is he got on that boat that was already headed in that direction and just speeded it up a bit. the problem is, even if you remove donald trump from the steering wheel, from the ship's wheel in this, it's still heading in that direction, and ultimately the only way it does is all of us can sit here and enunciate facts, say what the situation is, all of that. they're not going to listen to any of us, unfortunately in any of this, and they have to have members of their own tribe correct them, and no member it seems of the republican party or current member of the republican party there have been some that have done and they're gone now, are willing to confront that and tell them the truth and say this is the reality. these are the guardrails. this is what's actually happening, and so over and over and over again, these voters in this group of folks in tribe, that's all they're hearing, and there's no wonder they believe it. >> yeah, and i also wonder if there isn't an element of even people who don't believe what donald trump is saying, they're just so exhausted, frankly, and they also maybe think, well, it's more of his talk. but to that, i want to point back to "the washington post" article that said, quote, to facilitate trump's ability to direct justice department actions, his associates have been drafting plans to dispense with 50 ar of policy and practice intended to shield criminal prosecutions from political considerations. give us what you know about what's actually happening behind the scenes in trump world. >> right, jen was there on the front lines at the end of 2016 and knows all too well just how ill-prepared donald trump's incoming administration was. they didn't have a transition team, and they were building a government on the spot. >> i was in that white house too. it was not anything like i'd ever seen before. >> that's not the case now. there is an entire part of that administration who are currently working for a group america first policy institute. there's another conservative project, project 2025, are with jeffrey clark, who he is a part of this. in a paper earlier this year e he was very explicit about what a department of justice should look like. he wrote in part, nothing in the constitution provides that the attorney general is some kind of special cabinet member who is more equal than others and whose thoughts must be left independent. the title of the paper was the u.s. justice department is not independent. traditionally, the president has allowed for some separation from his attorney general from political persuasion there, right? but what donald trump is explicitly saying is he wants his attorney general to go after his political enemies come 2025. >> that's more evidence that donald trump can't do this alone, right? there was an article in "the atlantic" that sort of backs that up saying this. trump is to put it mildly, an emotionally disordered man. but such m are usually only a hazard to theiramilies and themselves, especially if they lack money or power. trump has both, but even more important he has people around him willing to use that money and power against american democracy. president biden said last night democracy is on the ballot. does he need to say it longer, louder, stronger? how do they make that case, particularly to the middle that will decide this election? >> i feel pretty optimistic about that. you look at the results on tuesday. people turned out to vote, you know, a lot of times we say everything is about the economy in terms of people at the time of the elections and on tuesday people turned out to vote largely over abortion rights. what it shows me is that voters are on the alert. even in new jersey where abortion was not really an issue in their elections, the democrats picked up five seats in a midterm election with a democratic governor. that does not normally happen. people are paying attention, and biden is, you know, i think they want to continue to make the argument for things they have gotten done, but they know they can do the contrast as well, and i think -- i mean, this is -- we have lost a lot of trump supporters who just believe that the constitution was already being violated, but we saw in '20, we saw in '22, there are more americans who understand what's at stake, and you know, i think they'll be able to do that. it's interesting one thing that trump said, though, that sort of belies how he doesn't actually believe what he's saying, he said if somebody got indicted, if he was president, indicted one of his opponents, that person would be gone. well, apparently not, sir, because you have been indicted four times and you are very much in this race. even he every now and then will like let that cloak fall. >> nevertheless, matthew, is there any question in your mind that donald trump will do exactly what he says he will do if he's reelected. is there any chance this is just talk? >> no, i mean, we've already seen he uses every opportunity and you saw it at the end of the 2020 election and the aftermath, he and the cadre around him does whatever they can to subvert the sort of will of the people and our democracy along the way. i would say to pick up something on what jen said, i think in my view, the mistake that the biden campaign has made and the mistake that the biden white house has made is they think -- they see the polls that say the economy is the number one issue as jen says, but the problem is you can't run on an issue where the voters already thinking negatively, and if you try to change their minds, they're not going to change their minds. what you have to do is run on the issues that are in your favor, like democracy, like freedoms like all these things like all the candidates that won in 2022 ran on. if you go back and look at the democrats that won in 2022, and the ones who lost in 2022, the ones who won ran on democracies. the ones who lost tried to run on the economy, and i was the chief strategist in 2004. the number one issue was the economy, when george bush ran for re-election. we never talked about it. all we talked about was national security, which wasn't the number one issue, but we knew it was the issue that would motivate the voters, and we had the chance to win with. >> well, for sure, the white house thinks they have a good story to tell on the economy, but -- and you guys know better than i do, but i've been covering politics for a long time. it's hard to overcome with facts what people feel in their everyday lives. thanks very much for being with us. it's great to have you, vaughn, back from your wedding. >> i appreciate that. >> great to see you in person, jen palmieri, matt you're going to stay with us. the intense violence reuters says is rocking gaza's largest hospital, and how humanitarian organizations plan to use the daily four-hour pause to help those in need. we're back in 60 seconds. elp those nineed. we're back in 60 seconds knock. number one broker here for the number one hit maker. -thanks for swinging by, carl. -no problem. so what are all those for? 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(vo) it's your vision, it's your verizon. the world health organization says there's intense violence at the largest hospital in gaza. the gaza health ministry run by hamas says the al-shifa hospital has been bombed five times by israel since thursday night killing at least one person, damaging their maternity ward and the outpatient clinic building. several people were wounded as well. a senior israeli security official now telling nbc that the strike at al-shifa resulted from a projectile launched by a military group inside gaza that misfired. the sounds and footage we are about to show you from one activist on the ground, we want to warn you, it's graphic and disturbing. >> that man you saw his hands covered in blood said, quote, we carried them with our hands, our hands. they bombed them, bombed them inside the hospital. oh, god, oh, god, please, god, have mercy on us. i want to bring in nbc's josh lederman from tel aviv. what more are you hearing from the israeli military as they are pushing deeper and deeper into gaza city? >> reporter: well, chris, as hamas and the israeli military are fighting now street by street, alley by alley in gaza's largest city, tens of thousands of those remaining civilians have sought shelter at the hospitals in gaza city hoping it was the only place that might be safe. as we saw today, it is certainly not safe, both hamas and the israeli military are now acknowledging that al-shifa hospital, the largest in the gaza strip was struck. as we've seen so many other incidents before in this war, there are conflicting claims of responsibility. hamas, the palestinian health authorities in the gaza strip, they say it was israeli strikes, but i spoke tonight with an israeli senior national security source who said they have determined that there was a militant group inside the gaza strip that launched a projectile that misfired and hit that hospital. we know there have been other reports at other hospitals, and this has really fueled a mass exodus of those people who were sheltering at those hospitals, now trying to get out through those humanitarian corridors into south gaza. we should also point out, the israeli military in a briefing just a little while ago did not necessarily dispute the fact that there has been fighting going on involving their troops at hospitals. they said, look, we are not targeting hospitals, but when hamas shoots at us from in hospitals, we will do what we have to do. that is the closest that the israeli military has come to acknowledging the likelihood that they have had some shooting involving hospitals in the gaza strip, and it comes as the w.h.o., the various hospital authorities there are really warning about the dire humanitarian crisis at those hospitals, both because of those civilians sheltering there and because of the patients there who keep growing amid all the fighting, now no electricity in many of these hospitals and they're quickly running out of those last remaining supplies, chris. >> josh lederman, thank you. i want to bring in patrick hamilton, the head of the regional delegation for the united states and canada, for the international committee of the red cross. patrick, we're seeing an incredible risk for doctors, nurses, aid workers in gaza right now, and of course the patients. one of your aid convoys was hit earlier this week by a strike, so i wonder what you are hearing from your staff on the ground. >> thanks, chris, this is really a deplorable situation we've seen. escalating over the last four weeks and across those four weeks we at the international committee of the red cross have been continuously the need for the parties of this conflict to respect humanitarian law, the rules of armed conflict, we're clear about the need to protect medical infrastructure, staff, patients as well as then humanitarian organizations such as ourselves, only to be able to save lives in this crisis. and what we're clearly seeing is that the situation is deteriorating. there are more and more impacts of this conflict,on patients, on staff, and this is simply not tenable, not sustainable. it's really a big concern. we ourselves are literally in the last couple of hours put out a statement of our own on this issue as well. much more needs to be done by all the sides participating in this conflict. >> what do you want to see done? what can help? al-shifa isn't alone. at least five hospitals now report being under siege or in close proximity to the fighting in gaza city? >> it's basically the different parties to the conflict needs to ensure that these hospitals are not at the center of their fighting. these hospitals and facilities should be the reserve of civilians, the civilian staff operating the hospitals, the patients in there. they need to take their fight elsewhere, and to ensure that these facilities are able to serve the life saving purpose for which they're intended. >> one u.n. agency is sharing that the director of surgery at al-shifa is warning -- and i'm quoting here -- patients who ha undergone surgery are at high risk of infection due to unhygienic conditions and l of equipment. in some cases wounds have been covered by white flies and their larva. just yesterday the world health organization reported that already infectious diseases from diarrhea to chickenpox are spreading really rapidly. is it even possible to sort of dial it back, get it under control at this point? >> we called for the parties to deescalate this situation. the red cross, we did it because of our profound concern of how intense this conflict is and the impact on all concerned. and not least on the ability of these essential pieces of public infrastructure to continue functioning in a way that actually saves lives. we've been also talking about this issue being a ticking time bomb, inhygienic conditions, the lack of access to clean water, insufficient provisions to be able to get into these hospitals to ensure they are hygienic, and thus far we've only been able to get in 26 trucks of humanitarian assistance, a substantial portion of which was medical items but it's far and away not enough to be able to cover the needs of these five hospitals and the need to provide clean water to what's a massive population in the strip. so yeah, we're sitting on a ticking time bomb, where this broader issue of public health is concerned and likely to see the spread of diseases unless the situation changes very rapidly. >> well, the international red cross continues to do extraordinary work utmost brutal of circumstances, patrick hamilton, thank you so much. we appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. another fight over a looming government shutdown that has republicans telling nbc news even divine intervention couldn't get this caucus to function. and the lavish getaway one covid-19 fraudster bought with pandemic relief funds, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. you're watching "chris jansing reports" only on msnbc. ansing reports" only on msnbc have both medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all of these plans include a healthy options allowance, a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month. and whatever you don't spend, carries over from each month. other benefits on these plans include free rides to and from your medical appointments. and our large networks of doctors, hospitals and pharmacies. so, call the number on your screen now and ask about a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. humana. a more human way to healthcare. hi. my name is kim and i am 41 years old. i've been given the opportunity to work from home, so that means lots of video calls. i see myself more and i definitely see those deeper lines. i'm still kim and i got botox® cosmetic. i wanted to keep the expressions that i would normally have, you know, you're on camera and the only person they can look at is you. i was really happy with the results. i look like me just with fewer lines. botox® cosmetic is fda approved to temporarily make frown lines, crow's feet, and forehead lines look better. the effects of botox® cosmetic may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness may be a sign of a life-threatening condition. do not receive botox® cosmetic if you have a skin infection. side effects may include allergic reactions, injection site pain, headache, eyebrow, eyelid drooping and eyelid swelling. tell your doctor about your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. see for yourself at botoxcosmetic.com. the power goes out and we still have wifi as these may increase the risk ofto do our homework.ts. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. home of the xfinity 10g network. right now, the federal government is actively preparing for the very real possibility of a government shutdown, and with just one week left to avert a crisis, lawmakers went home yesterday for a long weekend after the new speaker, mike johnson had to cancel votes on two funding bills. one house republican told nbc news the caucus is ungovernable. another put it more pointedly. i don't think the lord jesus himself could manage this group. nbc's garrett haake is in washington. matthew dowd, senior msnbc political analyst is back, and brian cheung is at the big board to explain what's at stake if a deal is not reached. all right, garrett, avoiding a shutdown is what former -- former speaker kevin mccarthy bounced in the first place, so now what? >> well, his replacement is trying very hard to avoid a similar fate as mccarthy. that's part of the reason we're seeing a delay and even an announcement of a bill to keep the government open. speaker mike johnson has been bouncing ideas off members of his conference trying to come up with something that will appease the most problematic members of that body and keep him out of the hot seat. what he appears to be leaning towards is this idea of what they're calling a laddered cr. this is as unfamiliar to many of our viewers as it was unfamiliar to the appropriators who do this for a living. the idea is to pass elements of funding the federal government to provide different incentives to keep different parts of the government open. if it sounds like a complicated rue goldberg machine to our viewers, i can assure that's how it was great greeted by democrats. we expect to see the text of some kind of bill possibly tomorrow that would line up an idea, whether it's the final idea or one that sticks to keep the government open and back up. >> it's not just ultraconservatives who appear to be in revolt. nebraska's don bacon told punch bowl, and i'm quoting here, us pragmatic conservatives -- the guys in biden districts -- we felt like we were walked on for nineonths was what you're seeing is the pragmatic conservatives, the common sense conserva saying we're not going to get run over anymore. it's probably a bigger challenge for speaker johnson to overcome, but we're tired of being treated like second class citizens. given that, what's your over/under on a shutdown? >> i love the football, i love the football term. i mean, i think it's going to -- there's going to be some level of shutdown, and as garrett said, who knows, they could do a thing where we're going to fund this much, and we're not going to fund this much and so i think that the odds are hugely high that there's going to be some level of shutdown, primarily because i'm interested in two things that have been said, and you pointed them out on this. first of all, they call their caucus ungovernable, that's what they call it. but nobody is actually willing to lead caucus members who are ungovernable to a better place. and the situation is, the reason why they're ungovernable is because they don't want to govern, and so the idea that there is multiple members of the house caucus and republican caucus that would just as soon have the government shutdown, that's what the reality is, and that's what they want in the course of this. and so governance, running the important parts of the government and all that is not something at all what they're interested in. so as i said, there's no telling it's ungovernable, and the other thing about lord jesus, if lord jesus came down, which i think he'd be very reluctant to do and speak to the republican caucus at this point, if he came down and spoke to the republican caucus, i'm willing to bet you a majority of the republican caucus would call him a socialist. >> i'm going to let that lie, brian, my old friend. if no deal is reached, let's be realistic here, how dire could the economic impact be? >> let's look back to 2019. . we had 300,000 federal employees that were furloughed. we lost about $11 billion, 3 paramedics of which the congressional budget office says we never got back. for what it's worth, even if there is a short-term resolution there would still be implications to our funding. the reason why is because there was a side deal made in the debt ceiling negotiations earlier in the year that said if they can't get a full-year funding bill done by the end of this year, there would be an automatic 1% cut to discretionary funding. we're not talking about the whole pie here. 66% is had mandatory spending. what we're really talking about is discretionary spending, 26% of the overall pie which includes defense spending, which is 45% of that slice that i just showed you in addition to non-defense things, health, veterans, transportation, income security, environment, a lot of different things. where might that 1% automatic cut be done? that's an open question, and that's the thing that's going to complicate this effort to do this laddered approach, which simply wouldn't be able to avoid that 1% cut. >> that sounds to me like something the american people are not going to be happy with. pure politics here, joe biden has a real problem with voters over what they think is a weak economy. they're tired of high prices, tired of inflation. are republicans just asking to share the blame if this shutdown happens? because, well, let's just start with what message does it send to the american people who may not know the intricacies of washington but are wondering why the house can't get this done, then takes the weekend off anyway. >> you know, that's a great question, chris, because i think what we've seen in the elections that we've had and especially the ones on tuesday is they want adults -- the american public wants adults in the room to do the basic jobs of government. don't do too much, do what's necessary. be a leader, do the things we need to do and let's move on so i can take the kids to school or i can go to the grocery store. you're supposed to be doing this, you're supposed to be the adult in the room in this. every time republicans do things like this and if they shut it down, it's going to tell the american public, there are no adults in the room in the republican caucus. and then you see that combined with donald trump's behavior, which is anything but an adult in the room on the campaign trail, and all the things he wants to do in his presidency, i think it's a perfect thing that supports the issues that joe biden and the democrats want to run on, which is competency, let's do the things necessary, and let's be the adults in the room. the republicans are going to feed that to them if they allow this to shut down. >> garrett haake, brian cheung, and matthew dowd, thank you, guys, have a great weekend. thanks for coming on. still to come, cdc warnings about u.s. childhood vaccine exemptions, what experience tells us about the potential impact on public health. but first, new details in the fbi investigation into those powder-laced letters sent to election workers and what law enforcement is doing to track down the culprit. you're watching "chris jansing reports" only on msnbc. ing "chrg reports" only on mbcsn (ella) fashion moves fast. 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(vo) it's your vision, it's your verizon. today the fbi is still trying to track down who's behind a series of threats against election workers. letters containing suspicious powder, including some that tested positive for fentanyl were sent to election workers in six states. in some cases it delayed the counting of ballots from tuesday's election. officials in pierce county, washington, released this photo of a threatening letter that came with powder. it reads in part, quote, end elections now. and here's georgia's secretary of state brad raffensperger on a similar letter sent to a local election office there. >> some people like to call fentanyl a drug, but it's actually poison. it will kill you. this is domestic terrorism, and it needs to be condemned by anyone that holds elected office and anyone that wants to hold elected office anywhere in america. >> joining me now, nbc's ken dilanian reporting from washington, rob d'amico is a former fbi supervisor and founder of sierra 1 consulting. ken, what more are we learning about this investigation today? >> chris, the fbi and the u.s. postal inspection service have launched a massive information into this matter. they're not saying much about what they're doing, law enforcement officials tell me the working hypothesis is that these incidents are linked and they are pouring over these envelopes for forensic clues, dna fingerprints, handwriting analysis, the postal inspection service has very sophisticated methods for tracking exactly where and when mail was sent. they're going to be looking at video surveillance. they haven't mentioned anything about suspects. what's so pernicious about the fentanyl angle here is that in the past where there have been letter attacks and white powdery substances, they've used things like anthrax, which are hard to get. fentanyl is ubiquitous in the united states. it's very toxic, very dangerous, it's also very available. that's got law enforcement officials really rattled here, but it's coming at a time when threats to election officials have already been a significant factor. they're in a heightened threat environment, they're having to up their security. this is just another dimension and they're very upset about it. >> ken, thank you for that. rob, you worked on the anthrax letter case after september 11th terrorist attacks. walk us through what the fbi investigation might look like now. can you give us any more insights beyond what ken has learned? >> yeah, i think what you're seeing is the best of what the fbi does. you have the old classic physical evidence of letters and taking evidence off of letter, but you have to do it in a hazardous materials environment, which we did back in the anthrax letter cases. so you have that going on. you also now have also the cyber side. so the letter itself has images and words in there. those words haven't -- whoever sent them has used those words before, and i bet you they're on social media. so you have the fbi social media exploitation team looking to find those exact phrases. you can look at those images and where they were downloaded. so you're not taking a cyber type investigation classic evidence of a case, and the fbi is used to dealing with cases in the mail. and again, the timing of when those letters arrived puts the mail inspectors back to when they think they came from an actual location. so i think you're going to start seeing some real positive things on this investigation soon. >> i don't need to tell you, but in the anthrax case, five americans died, 17 got sick, and so when secretary raffensperger rightfully points out that fentanyl also kills, does that change the equation either through the investigation or from what prosecutors would be looking for from investigators? >> i think it does. i think attempted murder. so when you look at send ago known substance that can kill someone, you now can up the charges. and also, again, the people handling this, i think part of it that came through is some of these were stopped before they even got there. so they did a great job of getting out in front before these letters could get to their intended targets. then you have to look at protection. what's the best way to protect against fentanyl? they've already come up with it. there's counter drugs out there. i'm sure the hazmat teams that the fbi is dealing with with the mail people are already in place. i know the evidence response teams and the hazmat teams with the fbi are looking at taking this chemical to the lab, and i also think there probably is a chemical footprint of this type of fentanyl they'll be able tooling back when they catch the subject. >> i'm curious about that, based on what ken said, obviously in the anthrax investigation there was a heavy reliance on scientists. there's a limited amount of anthrax, it's pretty well tracked. as he pointed out, fentanyl is absolutely ubiquitous. how much harder does that make it, or do you still think there will be key clues in analyzing whatever's in those letters? >> it is more common, but the bureau is unbelievably amazing at making a footprint out of something. i remember during the afghan war in iraq, we started looking at electronic footprints of bomb makers and connecting them back to each other based on how the circuit was made. i guarantee additives were put in there that they'll be able to examine and come up with another footprint of saying, hey, look, these properties of the chemical analysis are such that it rules out other ones. so i even think some of the dust and dirt that got in the fentanyl that the subject put in there, they'll be able to track back and say, hey, this is a footprint that the likelihood of someone else doing it is rare. >> thanks for coming on. coming u in our next hour, i'm going to talk with presidential historian douglas brinkley about the echoes between former president trump and the nixon era. up next, carjackings are soaring across the country. next, the story of one family held at gunpoint in their own driveway. but first, a wild story with potentially enormous implications. an arkansas man getting the world's first ever transplant of a whole human eye. the surgical team at nyu langone health in new york performing the surgery as part of a face transplant after that man suffered electrical burns in a work accident. now the wait because doctors say it's too soon to know if he'll see through that new eye. and we'll be right back. to take our operations to the next level. 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(vo) it's your vision, it's your verizon. new data from the fbi shows that even as overall crime decreases, carjackings are on the rise, up 8% just since last year. and today in illinois, a man hunt is ongoing after a particularly brazen carjacking caught on camera in one family's driveway. nbc's maggie vespa is here now with the details. what exactly happened, maggie? >> basically this family, mom, daughter, and moments later, you'll see dad come out as well, they were carjacked at gunpoint in their own driveway, steps from their own home. it was 9:00 p.m. on a thursday night. as you said, authorities say this kind of crime on the rise across the country, and a quick warning, some of the video you're about to watch may be disturbing. [ screaming ] >> one family's nightmare serving as a warning to drivers everywhere. michelle pettiford returned to their home when surveillance cameras caught two armed men, one in a mask, sprinting towards them. >> i think it went through my head, like, is this real? is this really happening? [ screaming ] >> reporter: you see them throw michelle down, grab her purse, one appearing to hit her. her daughter ran into the house screaming. >> you hear about blood curdling screams, that's just something i will never forget. >> reporter: jeff pettiford ran outside to help his wife. one of the men put a gun to his head. they said, where are the keys. >> she screamed in my purse. >> reporter: jeff pointed to the audi with the key fob inside, and the men drove off. the carjackers haven't been caught yet. the scene marking a stunning trend. fbi data shows while most violent crime fell last year, jar carjackings were up 8%. one fatal flash point in d.c. y investigators say an off duty federal security officer last month shot and killed a 13-year-old who tried to carjack him. this just weeks after a texas congressman was carjacked near the nation's capitol. >> to the left, somebody had a gun. to the right, somebody had a gun. >> reporter: in chicago, the pettiford's stunned to learn the problem is so widespread are afraid to go in their own backyard. >> you know, home isn't that place of comfort and safety that it once was, which is really sad. >> and perhaps not surprised, chicago police are keeping close tabs on this case. they tell us yesterday, a week to the day after that carjacking, they found the car. they say there was a woman inside the car. they have arrested her for misdemeanor trespassing. of course that was two men we saw in the video, and police say, essentially, they haven't yet caught those carjackers. >> wow, maggie vespa, thank you. there's a new analysis from the associated press, and it details what could be one of the greatest grifts in u.s. history, the theft of more than $280 billion in covid-19 government aid. that money, taken by people like patrick parker walsh who is now serving five and a half years in federal prison. he stole almost $8 million of relief funding and used it to buy himself thisrite island. the ap reporting other grifters spent their stolen funds on diamond jewelry, gambling sprees and lavish vacations. the of kids whose parents are opting out of getting them vaccinated is at an all time high in the u.s. the cdcorting that in the 2022 to '23 school year, 3% of kindergartners had vaccine exceptions nationwide, and much idaho. numbers in states like there, 12% of kindergartns were exempted this school yr. an expert from the ameca academy of pediatrics tells nbc news, those numbers reflect a rising distrust in the health care system. the escalating problems for joe biden's reelection, and we aren't just talking about the possibility that senator joe manchin will run as an independent, after announcing he's not running for reelection. that's in our next however of "chris jansing reports." on sunday, msnbc films presents "serving in secret," the latest installnt of the turning point documentary series from executive produce trevor noah, the long history of discrimination against the gay community. watch "serving in secret, love, country and don't ask don't tell" on msnbc, also streaming on peacock. sunday, 10:00 p.m. eastern. eacok sunday, 10:00 p.m. eastern network. 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