fraud trial against him, the penalty part. that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york. we begin with breaking news in manhattan where donald trump is already inside the courtroom about to take the stand in his $250 million new york civil fraud trial. these proceedings are just getting under way this morning. nbc's vaughn hillyard is standing by outside the courthouse. also with us, peter baker, chief white house correspondent for "the new york times." chuck rosenberg, former u.s. attorney and senior fbi attorney and former investigative council for the january 6th house committee. we saw those live images inside the courtroom. we aren't allowed to have cameras inside the courtroom during the actual testimony. i understand, vaughn, trump spoke moments ago before he walked into the courthouse. start us off there in mann with what the president, former president is saying this morning and what we can expect today. >> reporter: good morning, ana. i'm watching the same feeds you guys are inside the courthouse. donald trump just walked into the courtroom ahead of what will be several hours of him facing questions on the stand. letitia james is here in person. whether she asks any questions to donald trump directly is outstanding. so far she's left it up to other prosecutors in her office to ask the questions of witnesses on the stand. i want you to listen to letitia james before she headed into the courtroom. >> before he takes the stand, i am certain that he will engage in name calling and taunts and race-baiting and call this a witch hunt. at the end of the day, the only thing that matters are the facts and the numbers. >> reporter: for donald trump, this follows testimony from his two adult sons, don jr. and eric just this last week. his daughter, ivanka trump, who is not a defendant like her two brothers is set to testify here on wednesday. upon the conclusion of ivanka trump's testimony, we then expect the defense team for donald trump to call its witnesses to the stand for questioning. but for donald trump, he has sat for two depositions already with the new york attorney general's office in 2022. he pleaded the fifth more than 400 times before earlier this spring, after the guilty deal, plea deem that was struck by allen weisselberg, unrelated charges, ultimately donald trump answered a series of questions in which he suggested that the valuation of his properties were in his words guestimates and his guess that his own personal brand was worth more than $20 billion, directly taking on the assertions by the new york attorney general and the prosecutors' indictment against him that he overstated the value of his properties. >> we have reporting from inside the courtroom that donald j. trump has officially been called to testify in this fraud trial. chuck, as vaughn mentioned, trump had a deposition in this case last year in which he pleaded the fifth more than 400 times. take a look. >> i decline to answer the question. >> i decline to answer the question. >> i decline to answer the question. >> same answer. >> same answer. >> same answer. >> same answer. >> same answer. >> same answer. >> same answer. >> same answer. >> chuck, do you see him changing his strategy today? >> quite possibly. we'll know in a few minutes. remember, ana, when he invoked his fifth amendment privilege, and it's absolutely his right to do so, the leland scape was a bit less settled than it is today. he had not yet been charged in various jurisdictions with various crimes, and now that that has settled a bit, the risk to him is probably somewhat less. so he was deposed the second time in this civil case. he did answer questions during that second deposition. my sense is that he will answer questions today. it's always possible that he'll invoke his fifth amendment privilege. he could do so selectively, choosing to answer some questions and not others. if he does answer, there's always a risk that some prosecutor somewhere will get an idea about another charge that they could bring. but again, the landscape today is more settled. it's better known to mr. trump, and my guess, and we'll soon see if i'm right, is that he will answer questions on the stand under oath. >> i think so many people are curious about how he answers questions in terms of the tone, demeanor. peter, as the associated press points out, trump has testified in court at least eight trials since 19786. he has sat for more than 100 depositions over his long career in real estate. so this really isn't a new arena for m. do you think we'll see the bombastic trump, the guy we see outside the courthouse, or a more subdued version? >> that's the question. he actually is a very practiced witness. the irony is probably more than any other president in our history, any politician in our history perhaps. he has more experience answering questions under oath in depositions at least and in some trials than anybody we've ever seen. we have seen time and timed again that he has moderated and modulated his answers to questions when it actually matters. when lying is actually a chargeable offense. he seems to have understood in the past that there are things you can say on the campaign trail that you simply cannot say when you've taken an oath to tell the truth, and you face the penalty of perjury if you don't. he's obviously shown a great deal of hostility towards this judge. he's made it very personal about the judge's clerk. the judge has had none of it, to quote what you just said. i think we'll see an interesting moment where he has to decide how aggressive he wants to be given that this judge has already determined that he has been found liable for fraud, and the question here is about the penalty. >> already the a.g.'s office has dived right into questioning. kevin wallace is representing the attorney general's office on behalf of the prosecutor here. first question, you're the owner of the trump organization. is that right? he answered yes. if you are the prosecution, howe did you prepare for today's testimony? >> i think the first thing, you want to go over all the words of the person examining. you have to know everything they said. you're going to go overall your documents. the name of the game here is going to be trump's credibility. that's what all of this is about. when he gets on the stand, is the judge going to believe him or the prosecutor's case. that also means documents. documents can be really important. any time they're able to catch a former president not being truthful, the way you're going to prove that up in realtime is going to be with a document. he says something and he doesn't agree with you. well, you signed this dock. what two you say to this. they're really going to be pushing the credibility. this case has a little bit of an exciting nature because it's a former president. it's actual li going to be a lot more simple. the prosecutors are playing to one person, the judge. what this case is about to them is what is the opinion he's going to write when all this is done. that's all that matters to them. they're providing him a record by which he can find the former president credible, can find the former president liable. substance ating the fine coming down is what it's about for them. for the former president, the question for him is he playing to the audience of one to the judge or many, the american public, the media, the future electorate. i think that's where you'll see those two come into competition. >> i wonder if what trump wants is what his attorneys want in terms of who he's playing to in his testimony. if you're trump's team, what are you hoping to accomplish in his testimony? >> i think it really depends what they consider victory here. you've seen his lawyers adopt an approach more like his approach, more than i would if i were trying to limit my client's civil exposure here. i think for them, if your client doesn't walk into criminal exposure, doesn't provide affirmative evidence against him. best case scenario i think he comes out with a neutral kind of outcome. i think it's incredibly unlikely that he gets off the stand and the judge looks at his testimony and says, i believe the former president or says, after hearing him, i think he did not intend for any fraud to happen. i think that's unlikely based on the judge's former findings and based on former president trump's inability to tell the truth proven over many, many years. if i'm his lawyers, what i want to do is limit the damage. that's the name of the game here. >> chuck, do you agree? >> i do agree. i think limiting the damage is perhaps the best they can hope for. in this phase of the case, it's mostly about damages, how much money the trump organization may have to pay, whether they can continue to do business. but there are a few lingering counts against the defendants, the trump children, mr. trump himself, and unlike the first findings that the judge made that the company had vastly overvalued its assets, here the state, the attorney general is going to have to prove intent. so one other thing that the lawyers for the trump family can hope to achieve today and tomorrow the balance of the week is to show that any misstatements, any overvaluations were not done intentionally. i think, given the judge's previous findings, that's going to be a hard thing for them to do. i completely agree with tell die i don't that you don't want to walk mr. trump into further criminal charges in the event he perjures himself and he's not well acquainted with the truth. that's always a possibility when mr. trump testifies. limiting damages and perhaps trying to rebut the remainder of the state's case, that the overvaluations weren't done intentionally, that's probably the best that the trump team can hope for. >> let's go back to vaughn at the courthouse who has been monitoring the reporting from our producer. what are we learning about this questioning so far, vaughn? >> reporter: ana, so far, the shots you're seeing of donald trump inside the courtroom, just so everybody is aware, are the shots when the photographer is allowed in for about a minute to shoot some footage. we don't have a camera inside the courtroom at this time. our producers are following along and sending notes to us in realtime. so far donald trump is answering very pointed, specific questions. for example, did you appoint don jr., his son, as well as allen weisselberg, the chief financial officer, to their positions. donald trump saying yes. as we're going through here, he's being asked about what happened in july of 2021 for instance here. he is beginning to answer some of those questions. i think this is important as we're getting this in realtime, that donald trump is already beginning to go on the attack and suggesting that there is a weaponization from the new york attorney general's office as well as u.s. attorneys around the country who he calls trump haters. for donald trump the question is to what extent do prosetors allow him to meander with his answers over the course of these hours here? there's several logic points to this here. for donald trump he could reveal more than even the prosecutors are seeking to get out of him. but at the same time donald trump is very much trying to make the case, albeit without a jury and only a judge to make the determination, that this is letitia james, the democratic and new york attorney general who is unfairly going after him and he -- that the company had paid back all of their debts, that they were always on sound financial standing with the bank's insurers that provided them the loans that they're now being essentially addressed from the new york attorney general for having received on beneficial terms for overvaluing his assets here. for donald trump, i think there's going to be a lot of tangs jenningsal answering here. >> do you just let it rip, temidayo, if you're there, or do you trito get him back on track? >> if i'm the prosecutor, i think i let him talk. there's not a universe where the former president speaks and you leave thinking that he's credible in my view. i think especially in a case where he's on the defensive, he's emotional, he's trying to rebut this kind of crumbling of his image as this titan of industry. i think i do let him talk. if i'm seeking specific omissions. if i want him to say how many square feet is your apartment? that's the kind of point where i would ask the judge to direct him to answer that question. is it 10,000 square feet or is it 30,000 square feet? you want him to be very clearly saying which one he believes it is. to the extent he's going on a rant that has to do with the substance of what we're talking about, ranting about his net worth and his business acumen, that could be relevant. if he's going on and talking about joe biden and the 2024 election, i think i would ask the judge to cut him off right there because it has nothing to do with what the judge is trying to decide him. >> i'm remembering a related case in 2006, chuck, where "the new york times" highlights this, when trump sued a journalist who had actually written a book poking holes into trump's wealt and what he claimed was his net worth. "ttimes" writes in deposition mr. trump made maging omissions including admitting that his net worth can vary from day to day, and he determined it by gauging my general attitude at the time. have you efr over exaggerated your properties? i think everyone does, mr. trump replied. could statements like that be used against him in this trial? >> sure. to temidayo's point -- by the way, i agree i would let him ramble on. remember this is being tried only to a judge and not to a jury. so normal objections based on relevance might be less important here. the judge can make his own determinations about mr. trump's truthfulness, about his answers. but, yeah, it may be that he in rambling, continue diblths himself. it may be in rambling that he makes admissions. you don't really have tv show moments in real courtrooms. liars don't tend to suddenly tell the truth or to confess their sins. i wouldn't ek expect that to happen, ana. but in rambling, could he trip himself up and say a few things that are helpful to the government's case? certainly. >> vaughn, you have reporting about how the judge is handling this. what can you tell us? >> reporter: again, this is coming in realtime, ana. drum went on the attack the new york attorney general, the u.s. attorney general's office, to the point -- taking this on a non-tangential argument that donald trump was making to the judge that he is being unfairly targeted in this lawsuit. that let the judge, judge engoron here to push back against the attorney for donald trump, chris kise, who suggested these were open-ended questions to donald trump and donald trump may answer how he best sees fit because it's part of, in his words, a narrative that donald trump is painting as part of his testimony here. but judge engoron in response said that the prosecutor for the new york attorney general's office, in the judge's words, was being patient with his rambling answers and that donald trump, the witness on the stand here, needed to be more concise with his answers. donald trump is only expected to take the stand here today to answer the new york attorney general's questions. there's only so many hours here to work with. the judge directly here within the first half of donald trump here taking the stand already telling the defendant here to keep his answers more concise and pushing back against donald trump's attorney, chris kise's suggestion, that donald trump, this is a key part of his ability to build out his own narrative in his own defense. >> peter, we have seen trump's two eldest sons testify. ivanka is set to take the witness stand on wednesday, and all this reportedly has really enraged trump, the fact that his family has been brought into this trial. we heard from eric i think at the end of his testimony last week say that he and his siblings are collateral damage. do you think this is really the family legacy on the line in this trial? >> well, you can see that the former president takes this more personally in a lot of ways than some of the other legal issues he's had. this goes to the heart of his identity that he has spent a lifetime creating, the idea that he is some sort of mega successful businessman, the singular force in new york real estate over the course of decades and what's at stake is whether he even continues to be in business in new york, whether, in fact, his business is dismantled effectively after decades of work. i think that he is angry. he is, of course, angry his family had been brought into it. really he's angry the stabs at his own mythology that he's created. i think he's using this -- one of the reasons he's tflg, he wants to get his side across. we talked about what audience he's had. the audience is the judge we've been talking about. there's of course the outside audience. they've already sent out his office an email attacking letitia james. this reminds us, of course, this is not one of the criminal trials we're still anticipating next year. this is still a civil trial. many more days to come. >> temidayo, from what we've learned from the testimony from eric and don jr. last week, was there anything that stood out to you? >> i think there was a lot of finger pointed. not that it stood out. it was expected. you're likely to see the former president say the same thing, whether pointing to the accountants and saying i relied on these folks, i just signed documents, i didn't read them and do my own analysis. i think that's what you'll see the former president likely do. while he was president, he wasn't in charge of his assets. he may point to his sons and say these were the folks in charge go ask them. they point to the accountant and they say they were the experts, we relied on them. there's going to be a lot of avoiding responsibility while trying to get on the offensive and undercut the intentions of the attorney general here. >> vaughn, can you talk to us about, also, some of the confrontations weave now seen before trump's lawyer, chris kise, and this judge? >> reporter: right. this is only developing now. for several minutes they've gone back and forth, donald trump's attorney chris kise with the judge, because democrat, who is on the witness stand, started talking about the weaponization of the justice system here in the united states. the judge cut in and was explicit to donald trump's attorney, chris kise, that this is not a platform for speeches to be made and donald trump needs to keep his answers concise -- chris kise pushed back suggesting he is the front-runner for the president of the united states per new polling that came out over the weekend and, therefore, it's important for donald trump to be able under oath to make the case and build out his own narrative to the american public how he's being politically targeted by the new york attorney general. judge engoron pushed back on chris kise suggesting that the speech that donald trump was giving in the courtroom was not actually answering the question from the new york attorney general's prosecutor here. the new york attorney general is allowed to call witnesses they see fit. the defense team can call their own witnesses forward. there's a truncated period of time in which the new york attorney general's office is able to ask donald trump questions here. already for the last several minutes now there's been a back and forth, contentious back and forth between donald trump's attorney and the judge over how donald trump can answer these questions. so far about a half hour into this there's been actual little substance from donald trump answering the new york attorney general's prosecutor's questions. >> it sounds like it's already getting messy, chuck. >> messy doesn't help mr. trump legally. it may help him politically. in a court of law and when the judge is the trier of fact, in other words, when there's no jury, the fact that mr. trump is rambling or being evasive or perhaps even making stuff up, is going to go -- is going to help the judge determine who wins and who loses. if the state wins and they've already won most of the case, how much they win. what sort of penalty is imposed? what sort of fine is imposed, what sort of restrictions are put on the trump family to do business in new york state. so, by the way, i think this is a good reason why i have always been opposed to the notion of cameras in the courtroom. i know a lot of my colleagues in the television industry vehemently disagree with me and think that courtroom should be open to cameras, but this type of testimony, this type of speech phiing, this type of evasion lends itself to playing to a camera, and the judge is trying to rein it in. in the end, i don't think any of this helps mr. trump legally. it may help him politically. >> the judge has been trying to rein him in. that's been part of this entire trial. we've seen that. he's been making statements outside of court, in social media, going after the judge's clerk which led to this gag order which now includes the lawyers of trump as well, saying they can't talk about the judge's staff. trump's lawyers have said they're just trying to make a record of issues for potential appeal. so i wonder, temidayo, how do you think the judge has handled this aspect of the trial? >> i think the lawyers here have truly tried to test his patience. some of the statements they've made, for example, about his law clerk have been really ridiculous. i clerked for a federal judge. the suggestion that passing notes to your judge is problematic is just completely ridiculous. >> baugs that's normal? >> it's completely normal. it niece a trial -- with my federal judge, i sat directly next to her. yes, you would pass notes because you're there to assist the judge, offer your help. the judge would have questions. sometimes it's legal questions. sometimes it's can someone go get me some coffee. but to suggest it's improper, those lawyers know better, and they were not worried about the facts. they were playing to their client. that's what they were doing there. i think the lawyers here, they have adopted an approach that they practically have given up on winning this trial on the substance. they are not trying to do that. i think think they know they've lost based on the pretrial ruling. what they're trying to do now is get the judge to do something improper, trying to create an atmosphere where the judge lashes out, maybe the judge says something that attacks the former president personally and then they can go, a-ha, we told you this entire trial was a sham or create a record to get this case on appeal. it's guaranteed this will go up on appeal. they're trying to create a record, what they can argue to a new panel of judges, here is what this judge did improperly on the trial court level and here is why you should overturn his ruling. that's what they're aiming for here. they're simply, i don't think, trying to win this trial. >> have you seen anything, temidayo, that you think would be helpful to trump's team on appeal? >> no, not yet. this trial has gone off without a hitch. i haven't seen any issues, if i were an appellate court saying this seems untoward or anything else has been done by the attorney general's office. i think that's because they have conducted this trial the way any prosecutor would, which is you are worried about your fact-finder. normally it's a jury, here it's a judge. you don't worry about the media or outside perception. you worry about what does my fact-finder think? i think they're doing this case exactly the way they should be doing it. i think the former president is going to be in trouble when the judge makes his final ruling. >> your thoughts on that, chuck. >> i agree. i think the judge here is an experienced jurist. he has to understand, as temidayo was explaining, that the defense in this case is not on the substance, not on the merits. it's to try to goad him into a mistake, to try to have him do or say something that will make their appeal of this matters, and it is inevitable that they will appeal, to make that appeal better. that hasn't happened yet. the judge has been judicious, as judges are supposed to be. i think that is helping the state. the state is remaining focused on the facts and the law, as they must, as they should. so what you're getting, ana, is a lot of noise, a lot of heat, but not a lot of light, at least not from the defense. in the end as a legal and factual matter, it's going to help the state, not hurt it. i imagine the judge will remain judicious, will avoid mistake and avoid being goaded into an error that helps the trump team on appeal. the case is going in from the state's perspective as i imagined they hoped it would. >> one of the things that trump has publicly taken issue with of the state's case is the valuation around mar-a-lago. he keeps on coming back to mar-a-lago and how the a.g. said it was worth $18 million. this morning he was making comments that it's worth 100 times more than that. vaughn, i understand mar-a-lago has now come up in the questioning. what's happening? >> reporter: in just the last fu minutes after the judge directed drf to not give speeches but answer the questions from the new york attorney general's office, donald trump was asked the question whether he directed and actually gave himself what he believed to be the value of his properties to the accounting firm that the trump organization was working with. as part of donald trump's answer to that question he went on to state that there are multiple properties that were undervalued by appraisers, and that donald trump when he was asked by the accounting firm, whether he believed that the value that was given by these appraisers was accurate or not. he said he sometimes offered up his own interpretation. one of those properties is mar-a-lago. he said though, however, he did not push back on the appraisal that was given despite, in his words here under oath, that he believed it was undervalued. donald trump has publicly stated that he believes mar-a-lago should be valued in his words at $1.5 billion. just in the last two minutes he has been listing other properties incluing doral that he believes is undervalued. he's making his own case that the trump brand is worth $10 billion. this is part of his defense effort he's now making on the stand as well as publicly, that his value and that of his family -- his name is actually significantly higher. one other note, ana, as he was answering some of these questions here, again, judge en good morning jumped in and said donald trump was not getting to the heart of the actual question that the new york attorney general's prosecutor was asking him, which was the question was he the one directing the exact number that should be placed for the value of said properties. we've got a big afternoon ahead, ana. >> thank you all so much. please stay close. we'll have much more from inside that courtroom on donald trump's historic testimony. first, israeli forces renewing the call for civilians to leave northern gaza warning of a fresh assault as their forces en sieshgal gaza city. s en sieshgal gaza city you know that feeling of having to rewash dishes that didn't get clean? 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>> reporter: ana, that's right. we spent several hours inside northern gaza yesterday with the israeli military. it's an area i've been to many times before, and it was pretty staggering to see the level of destruction there. we were following a unit of combat engineers, and they gave us an up-close glimpse at the scale and the sophistication of the hamas tunnel network. across a devastated strip of northern gaza, israel's military is on the move. >> we're in the back of an israeli military humvee following a unit who is tasked with finding and destroying hamas tunnels. >> reporter: nbc news was given rare access inside gaza by israel's army. as a condition, we agreed to blur some faces and to show israel's military censors our raw footage, though not our final story. we crossed the same border fence hamas terrorists burst through on october 7th on route to their massacre. our first stop in gaza, one of the only houses in the area still standing. the family who lived here have fled, only traces left behind. but in the back yard, there's this. >> we got text that terrorists came from this tunnel. >> reporter: 15 yards deep and looks like this from the inside, a labyrinth of interconnected tunnels. >> they're using families, civilians, they're using schools, using hospitals as a cover for the tunnels. >> reporter: israel says that's forced them to strike densely populated areas causing massive civilian casualties. not far away in the ruins of a beach resort, major maya mullah shows us another tunnel opening connected to the first. >> we're going to blow it up. >> reporter: moments later, one tunnel down, many more to go. that's the northern edge of gaza city behind us. you can see smoke rising. >> we saw no palestinian civilians. we knew close by there were families, including many children just trying to survive another day of war. >> reporter: ana, you saw there we reached the edge of gaza city. israel's military says they have encircled it, yet to push into the center of the city itself. the gaza health ministry, run by hamas, say 10,000 people have died inside gaza killed over this last month of war. many, many thousand of those are children. the israeli unit we were with is not only destroying these hamas tunnels, they're also searching them for intelligence. they told us they have not seen any trace so far of the 240 hostages who are being held by hamas. they say they are determined to do everything they can to bring those people home. ana. >> raf, those images of yours inside gaza are truly stunning. thank you so much for your courageous reporting. up next, we are back at the new york courthouse where donald trump is testifying right now in his civil fraud trial. what just happened moments ago, plus where this trial fits with all his other legal troubles. stay right there. legal troubles stay right there [city ambience sounds] [car screech] [car door slam] [camera shutter sfx] introducing ned's plaque psoriasis. 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ask about the power of 3 with ozempic®. welcome back. we're continuing our breaking news now as we monitor the manhattan courthouse where donald trump is testifying right now in this multimillion dollar civil fraud trial into his family's businesses and their overall wealth. it's getting tense now inside the court. the judge just asked trump's lawyer if they're able to, quote, control their client, adding this is not a political rally. let's go back to the courthouse and nbc's vaughn hillyard. also with us, temidayo annga-williams, and also joining us is donald trump strategist smikle. vaughn, first catch us up about what's happening right now in that courtroom. it sounded like a big moment with the judge asking the lawyers to control their client. >> reporter: right, and even suggested that chris kise, the attorney for donald trump, needed to talk to his client donald trump. chris kise, the attorney pushed back and said he would need a ten-minute break in order to do so, that he was not going to do that literally sitting in the courtroom. the new york attorney general's prosecutor who is the one asking the questions of donald trump on the stand immediately went back to asking trump questions. of course, there are only so many hours here in the day to have donald trump testify under oath and answer these questions. hae has been now -- faced condemnation from judge engoron multiple times for, in the judge's words, giving a political rally and speeches in response to the questions instead of direct lip answering the prosecutor's questions. that's where you've seen an already contentious relationship between his attorney as el as the new york attorney general's office play out in front of the public inside this lower manhattan courtroom. there's one other important know note that's developed in just the last few minutes in which donald trump acknowledged that the value of his apartment in midtown manhattan there at the trump tower was overstated, overvalued at one point. but donald trump in front of the judge here making the case that that is the only property that he can think of as having been overvalued. of course, in the financial records the trump tower was listed at about $270 million price point, which is about three times higher than the actual value of that property here and was really used as one of the key examples against donald trump for overvaluing his properties. right here under oath him acknowledging that, yes, in fact, it is overvalued, but suggesting that other properties on the contrary were undervalued. donald trump repeatedly making the case that the financial statements undervalue he and his family's, the trump organization, only undervalues. >> even as vaughn was speaking, the judge went back to the lawyers and said control your client. it sound like lawyers are now trying to get a break in here at the trial. we'll continue to monitor this. i've got to ask you, susan and basil, can anyone control donald trump? >> no, because i think in this circumstance, one, maybe he's confusing georgia and new york courtrooms. georgia is where they do have it televised, the proceedings. new york does not. i'm not sure why he's anthing out this way. more importantly, i think donald trump knows his back is against the wall. he's already been found guilty. he is guilty of fraud. now it's the phase where the judge will assess the penalties. it seems he's given up, that he's lost with this judge, so he's going to spark everything and burn it all down, if you will, just to irguess apiece some of his base. it makes no sense. >> back to testimony apparently, updating. >> i would piggyback off that, because we don't ever describe donald trump as sheepish or demure. one might think he would go into the courtroom and actually not try to add a contempt charge to whatever else he's facing, but the reality is he needs to be able to leave that courtroom to be able to say to his supporters this is what i did, i stared them down, i fought back, i pushed back. i wouldn't be surprised if there's a t-shirt or a hat in there that he might be wearing to say this is what i had on in the courtroom. go ahead and buy this and contribute to my campaign. this is a theater for him. and i have to stress that. all of this is both -- it's a legal peril, certainly, but also partly political theater because he needs to be able to go and sell the whole, they're after me, the government is too big, too powerful, i'm the aggrieved. that's what's always ginned up his base. >> i think he wants the contempt charges racked up so he can say this is how much they're coming after me which is also coming after you. i think he's happy to see them racked up. >> he knows he's fundraised off his previous court hearings, already put the fund-raiser out there previously. he thinks maybe being in court could help him in that way as well. what's the risk, temidayo, of treating a courtroom like political theater? >> he's getting away with a lot more here than he will get away with federal court, especially criminal federal court. practitioners will tell you during a trial in federal court, it's a lot more of a somber place than state court is, especially when you consider criminal proceeding. i think if he would try this in front of judge chutkan, you'll see a far more stark and aggressive response from the judge then you're seeing here. when liberty is on the line, courts don't take the seriousness of the proceedings lightly. i think what's going to be tough for him in the criminal proceedings, if those can actually get going next year, is that this kind of political theater approach i think will be responded to with a lot more harsh of a voice with judge chutkan. we'll see whether the judge cannon trial happens. this isn't going to work in a criminal case. frankly, it's not working in the civil case but he's attempting to have it work in the civil case because you're talking about lower stakes, only how much money he's going to lose. >> chuck, when you compare this case to some of the others he's battling, like the federal case brought by jack smith, the georgia election interferenc case, how serious is this fraud trial poses peril to trump and his family and businesses? >> it's serious in terms of peril to the business. this is about money, not about liberty. the criminal trials, particularly those in federal court are much more somber, much more stayed and are about liberty. if mr. trump loses this case in new york state court, he has to pay money. maybe he loses the ability to do business in some ways in new york state. if mr. trump loses a criminal case in federal court, he could go to jail. so the stakes are completely different. by the way, while it's also much easier for mr. trump to get on the stand in a civil case in new york state because he's already been deposed and has given answers under oath, it is much more difficult for him to take the stand as a defendant in his own criminal trial. it rarely happens. maybe mr. trump will prove to be the exception, but the stakes forgetting on the stand in a criminal case as a defendant and being subjected to cross-examination by very good federal prosecutors is completely different than what you're seeing today. and so different courtrooms, different stakes with very different potential outcomes for mr. trump. >> are you surprised, chuck, that trump is lashing out in court? >> no. i think to basil's point, this is a theater for him. by the way, it's a courtroom for others. while it may be a theater for mr. trump and lashing out is what he does and does reasonably well, for the judge and the representatives of the attorney general's office, it remains a courtroom. they have a case to prove and from the attorney general's perspective, a case to win. as you can see the judge becoming more and more frustrated with mr. trump's responses, with his lack of focus, with his evasion, all of those things i think in the end inure to the benefit of the state. if the judge believes mr. trump is evasive, not answering questions, he must also believe there's a reason why he's not answering the questions and that all tilts in the favor of the state. so basil is quite right. it's theater for mr. trump but it's a courtroom for everyone else, and at the end -- in the end, i should say, ana, it will be the law and the facts that matter for the judge and for the prosecutors. >> and we're just told the judge is, again, going back to trump's lawyers now saying i beseech you to control him. vaughn, what else can you tell us about what's happening there right now? i understand also in the courtroom is trump's attorney in the hush money case of criminal proceeding here in the state of new york and obviously observing this reportedly laughing about some of this? >> reporter: right, this is notable. adam reiss, our great nbc news producer who has covered the trump family and the trump organization for decades now in new york is actually inside of the courtroom and spotted one of donald trump's lawyers related to the hush money payment trial, who is sitting there in the second row chuckling and taking down notes. this is according to our producer adam reiss. of course this just speaks to the number of criminal and civil cases that are awaiting donald trump. the hush money payment case, of course, was a criminal indictment, 34 count felony criminal indictment brought by the district attorney here in new york, alvin bragg. that trial is slated to again on march 25th of this upcoming year here, though the judge had sud that potentially it could be pushed back because on march 4th ishen e federal election interference trial is slated to begin here. for donald trump,his is his first time here taking the stand, and it's going to be notable for these other future trials ahead for their attorney, for his attorneys to determine whether donald trump will testify and answer questions under oath like he is doing as part of this civil lawsuit brought before him by the new york attorney general's office. >> and so i got to underscore that, this is a civil case, right? he has these criminal cases given he's willing to testify in this case, do you expect him to testify in those criminal cases? >> i do not at all. i think i would be shocked if donald trump took the stand in his criminal cases. one, as not that common, but the peril there cannot be overstated, and you know, i've had -- i've had trials where criminal defendants have taken the stand, and it does not end well. i mean, you -- those cases have been built up in such a detailed way. i mean, you had a preview effectively of what a jan 6 trial looks like by looking at our hearings over the last summer. that's extensive work, if i do say so myself. that's only gone deeper. jack smith has gone even further and deep we are better tools than we had at that time, so by the time donald trump has a decision whether to take the stand, he's going to be looking at a case that's been amassed over multiple years with really extensive resources by very, very talented and experienced prosecutors, and that decision he has there. do i get thereupon on that stand after watching all of that and try to rebut that? i don't think any lawyer with any sense would let him get on the stand. now, with that said, you do see defendants get on the stand when they have absolutely nothing left. that happens sometimes, when a case can ironically be so good that all you have at that point is a hail mary, and he may end up in that situation. but he's looking at saying like if i do nothing i am for sure going to lose my liberty, and at that point what more do i have to lose? >> and it just seems like having covered trump during his presidency as well, he's always been something who feels he is his best messenger, and he also comes at it with a mentality of i can talk my way out of anything. do you think that's what he thinks here? >> well, yeah, i think donald trump tends to look at all of his legal problems as pr problems. he doesn't focus on the consequences of the legal system but rather the consequences to him and whether it's running for president or anything else, but it is a pr problem for him, and that's what he's trying, i think, to always solve, which is why i throw out there maybe he wants these contempt charges so he can use them to, again, rile up his base and say, look, they're just coming after me. no one gets contempt charges as much as this. he's earned them, but again, it's a pr problem for donald trump, and his criminal cases may finally break down in his mind that this is his liberty at stake, as chuck said. >> it doesn't seem like the voters are too worried about it, basil. >> not at all. not at all. i mean, his supporters are solidly behind him. however, i will say this, as we think about the sort of campaign that's unfolding in front of us over the next few weeks and months as we get closer to iowa and new hampshire, the question is how much time is he going to be away from the campaign trail that gives everybody else an opportunity to kind of fill that void. i also always think about the donors. he may get a lot of small donations from a lot of his supporters across the country, those big donors have an opportunity to make a candidate, probably more so on the republican side than they could ever do on the democratic side. they have the opportunity to make a candidate or break a candidate. one of the things i look for is the -- are these cases going to be so problematic for him that the donors say, you know what? we really need to start going somewhere else. >> we saw the polling from "the new york times," right, that just came out over the weekend from btleground states where trump currently in a head-to-head matchup hypothetically for the general election is leading in many of those, you know, five out of six here with a basically statistical dead heat in wisconsin, but the other ones he's wl ahead. in some ways it does seem like his ability to make, you know, lemonade out of lemons is a political -- legal lemons, that's really a thing for trump, and swing state voters are not necessarily trump's base. >> however, in that poll, one of the interesting cross temps was a generic democrat beats donald trump by eight points in those states. so what i think the poll really shows is that biden has a problem motivating and getting his people, a turnout problem and probably an enthusiasm problem as well as he's not hitting the right notes with people, so his messaging on that. it's a lot of work to do to make up for that, but i don't think the numbers are so close. i think it's an abb, anyone by biden, and they just are looking at donald trump right now but a year from now, probably not guilty -- not so much. >> particularly african american voters were wanting to see more of him and wanting to see more of kamala harris, as they rightly should. one of the bigger problems to the messaging issue, when we talk about the economy doing much better, we have to be careful not to just sell biden on policy because people vote with emotion. they vote in terms of fear and anger or of hope and aspiration. and on the fear and anger side, donald trump gives his supporters all of that. we have to find a way to attach that concern and emotion to the policy biden has been putting forward. i would also caution democrats really haven't spent money yet. they haven't really ramped up the campaign yet. there's still absolutely time to do that. but again, got to do it quickly. that enthusiasm gap starts to become insurmountable if the people who you consider your base aren't on the ground with you knocking on doors and getting folks out. >> and the narrative bakes in. >> checking what's happening in the courtroom right now, trump actually said i hope the public is watching. again, there's no camera inside the courtroom during the testimony, but clearly that is top of mind for him, temadayo. when we think about the election and all these legal cases that are going to be ongoing during the course of the campaign and the primary process up and to potentially the general tion we put up the calendar show all the many cases. we kwhere's a couple of court dates set for march. the trial for the classifie documents case currently set for may. we don't have a trial start date yet for georgia, but do you think realistically these cases will be wrapped up before election day, november, a year from tomorrow? >> you know, i will be impressed if we have at least one of those cases go to a verdict before election day. i think it's almost impossible that they all will. i think it will be surprising if we have two of them go. i think clearly in all these cases, trump's lawyers want to stop a jury from ever getting impanelled and that going forward. that's the goal. he wants the electorate to decide his fate, not a jury. and the questions for all of these judges, for judge cannon, for judge chutkan, for the judge in the hush money case, is can they force that trial schedule forward. judge cannon in florida appears not willing or able to stick by the trial schedule she set. judge chutkan seems fully able and willing to have this trial early on. that's something the president is objecting too. he has pending motions, they're trying to object to those charges and get those decided and push that trial date forward. i think it's up in the air. i would say judge chutkan's case in d.c. is going to go forward and we'll have a verdict before election. >> thank you, our thanks to chuck and vaughn as well who have pivoted over to our next hour of coverage. thank you for joining us. i'll see you back here tomorrow, same time, same place. josé diaz-balart picks up our coverage right

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