lawrence. good evening, ali. >> good moving, alex, thank you, and we should talk next week, have a good weekend. >> sure. well ek have a>> a washington d.c. appes court issued a stay on a gag order placed on donald trump in the 2020 election case brought by special counsel jack smith. a three judge panel made up of two trump appointees and a biden appointee scheduled oral arguments on a gag order on november 20th. until then, trump remains free to her verbal attacks against the special counsel and a. federal judge tanya chutkan found that the gag order is necessary because trump's verbal attack on witnesses and others could inspire violence from his supporters, which is exactly what happened on january six. we are so accustomed to following the day-to-day legal action in trump's constant unhinged social media grants about being persecuted by the justice system and biden administration, that we have become numb to just how abnormal this really is. ranting by fringe characters is normal in politics. donald trump is not a fringe character. he's a former president at the united states, a current front runner for the republican nomination, and he is trying to de-fake the country or at least a majority of 2020 voters to believe that an event that we all watched on live tv, his effort to steal the 2020 election and stay in power, did not have been. today, there is new reporting about the location that trump chose to kick off his 2024 campaign, waco, texas. waco, of course, is where a stand up between federal agents and a cult called the branch davidians, can't to a tragic and, when cold member set fire to a building, rather than surrender to the fbi. reporter jonathan karl writes in the atlantic, shortly after the rally was announced, i asked steve bannon, who served as the ceo of trump's 2016 campaign and once again emerged as one of trump's most important advisers, why did president would go to waco for his big campaign reboot? he was not coy. quote, we are the trump the vineyards, he told me, with a laugh. and here is how one trum supporter in texas understood trump's choice, let's call it, of waco. trump is making a statement, i believe, by coming to the stumping grounds, where the federal government and fbi late seats at the community, just like a late seat on mar-a-lago and went in and focused stuff. charles pace, a branch dividend ian pastor, who left the compound several years before the deadly fire, told the texas tribune. certainly before the waco kickoff rally, trump tried out what is alarming, even for his 2024 campaign lead. >> i am your retribution. >> now, that phrase, amour retribution, it's not a coincidence. jonathan carl reports that when i spoke with bannon a few days later he would not stop touting trump's performance referring to it as his quote come retribution speech. what i did not realize was that come retribution, according to civil war historians, served as the code words for the confederate secret service spot to take hostage and eventually assassinate president abraham lincoln. today, the former trump appointee, federico cline, was sentenced to more than five years in federal prison for assaulting capitol police officers on january six. the trump appointed judge who sentenced him said he was disturbed that klein who worked in the state department considered it his duty to go to trump's rally to join to protesters at the capitol the trump supporter who ripped the gas mask off capitol police officer daniel hodges in one of the most harrowing january six videos, was sentenced to more than several years in federal prison. meanwhile, two states are currently weighing whether donald trump is disqualified from appearing on the 2024 ballot, under the insurrection closs, the 14th amendment of the constitution, section three. and last night, donald trump, once again, took to the stage at a rally, two songs that were some bad criminals, who attacked the capital, where he said. >> i call them the j six hostages, not prisoners. >> joining us now is ryan reilly, justice reporter for nbc news. he is the author of the new book, sedition hunters, out january 6th broke the justice system. as well as ruth ben-ghiat, a history professor at nyu and author of strongmen, mussolini to the president. welcome to both of you, thank you for being with us. ryan, my good friend, i have been waiting for a long time to talk to you about your important book and all the work that you have done. but big developments today, this week in terms of the sentencing of the january six participants. where are we on this? >> right now, we're at the point where there are 1100 people arrested, but the scope of people that could be arrested as more than 3000. will not get to that number based on the statute of limitations that expires in two years, now because we are three years into the statute of limitations. these cases need to take a little bit of a kick in the pants. i think that is something that the online sleuths have been focusing on, pressuring the fbi to bring more cases forward, because there are dozens of people who have been identified, who have still not yet be been arrested, including violent offenders. recent arrests this week, but they say the pace has to pick up in order to get to all of the individuals who have committed violent, awful acts on january six, still not yet have been arrested. they are kicking away at this today. >> ruth, give historical context on this, because when we look at people in the past who had to fight democracy, what is the relevance of these people that ryan has been judiciously reporting on the last couple of years, being arrested, charged and convicted, while donald trump has still not been convicted? >> yeah, any accountability is a very important, but as you know, ali, i do see trump as not just an authoritarian but a cult leader, and january six was a cult leader rescue operation. he called out to them to stress to save him, and they came. and so, until the cold leader, his power is deflated, or he's banned from politics, which is what they did to bolsonaro, after his insurrection, the danger remains. >> ryan, let's talk about federico klein. he was a state appointee. this is part of the problem that ruth is talking about. there are people who were even within the government, a lot of these people who have been arrested, that you reported, on who are outsiders. they were fodder for donald trump, and they have set so much in court, but then you've got people, all the way from john eastman down to this guy, who worked for the government. they were inside the government, and they thought it in some sense, it was their responsibility to try to fix whatever was broken and the 2024 election? >> i think the sort of give away in this case is that federal clouded not speak during his sentencing. what that tells me, based on trying to question him afterwards about what she thought of the sentencing, whether he thought that the january six, rather, whether he's thought to be the election was stolen, whether he had regrets about january six, and he declined to answer any one of those questions. seems to me that he still believes the election was stolen, and that is why his lawyer was not a great idea for him to speak in court, and the judge found that there was no evidence of remorse in his case. i think that is illustrative. it's interesting when you have these cases, when they ultimately get to the sentencing point, to hear from the defendants about what they actually believe. a lot of them are realizing, i got fooled and tricked. i fell for this online garbage and what donald trump stymie about the 2023 election, but there are plenty of defendants who still in the heart believed that he, and the reason and logic won't get to them. that is where they see their role, as, okay, the reason why they won breakthrough, they're not convinced people that the election was not stolen, and convince them that they were sort of calmed and the situation. we have to make sure that there will be consequences for individuals who choose to violate the law to bring forward and tried to bring about this, overturn the election based upon misinformation that they read on the internet. >> so, ruth, historical context there, some of these people come out, and they are remorseful and crying. we have heard from their families about how they were misguided, and they went down these rabbit holes, but there are some who are not. how does this play out, because there are a whole bunch of people who believe that they too are martyrs for the cause. donald trump likes to speak with himself as a martyr and some ice, but there are people who still think that there are is a cause to be moderate for. >> that's right, and it is very disturbing, his whole conversion narrative of january six with these thugs who attacked the capital, being now political prisoners. by the way, when he came off his presidential campaign in waco, he already started talking about them as political prisoners, and he introduced this idea of january six choir. that has a kind of church like association, so it makes it people into positive figures into kind of the trump liturgy. all of this is very fascists. it reminds me after the march on room in 1922 in italy, those who were harmed or imprisoned, they were called murder, and it was a whole liturgy that came up around the people. the message is that the insurrectionists are continuing, and these people are the heroes, and that is dangerous for our democracy. >> ryan, you and i were together. time -- you gave me a copy of the book, and i have been dying to ask you since then, as you follow this so closely and see every one of these trials or, at least most of them. what is your takeaway right now? where are we in this process of these people, who as you say, some fell into the rabbit hole, and some are still believers. where are we in the pursuit of justice, because we're coming up on the next election? >> yeah, obviously, if donald trump is elected, this is all out the window. a lot of cases will be dismissed, and a lot of people who go free, because there are 1000 people who have been identified right now who have not yet been arrested. he can bring cases against him tomorrow, the system cannot handle that. you gotta spread it out over the next two years, it's the approach that they need to take. there are people who really violently assaulted officers, who have already been identified, not yet been charged, and they have that to your timeline to get this done, but i think big picture-wise, it really as brought up deeper issues within the fbi, especially when it comes to open source intelligence and how they are looking at all of these things. it was a massive failure before january six, and they are not necessarily doing everything they can at this point to bring these cases forward. they've had big success, some conspiracy trials, were really historic, but there are a number of people, thugs, who really assaulted offices that they, who have not yet been held accountable for their actions. >> ryan, it's an important book. it will be the cannon of our dark time in history. thank you for the work that you put into it. ryan riley, the new book is sedition and theirs. ruth ben-ghiat, as always, thank you for the analysis. ruth ben-ghiat is a professor at nyu. all right, we'll take a quick break. when we come back, we'll continue with the latest on donald trump's fraud trial. we got gag order news in that civil fraud trial, which is proving to be -- of another donald trump mid, donald trump billionaire creation story, stay with us. ry, stay with us 12 hours!! not coughing? 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[ cheers ] yeah! woho! running up and down that field looks tough. it's a pitch. get way more into what you're into >> welcome back, we have gag when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. order nuisance the trump civil fraud trial, which is proving to be a demonstration of another trump mid, the trump billionaire creation story. in trump's civil fraud trial in new york, not only does the former president asked to abide by a gag order, but now, so do his attorneys. this follows just a day seated exchange between justice arthur engoron, and trump lawyers over a comment that one of trump's attorneys had made about the judges clerk, the same clerk that trump had been barred from speaking about, and just like their client, the attorneys are now barred from making comments about the clerk, with the judge writing that, quote, failure to abide by this directive shout result in serious sanctions. eric trump finished his testimony today, and that is trump's scheduled to take the senate on monday, where he will be grilled by the same prosecutors that he made attacks from behind the protective screen of his social media account. joining us now is adam klasfeld, a senior legal correspondent for the messenger. he was in the courtroom for today's proceedings. adam, this is one of those cases that a lot of people were not paying attention to. this is not one of the big ones that everybody thought would take down donald trump, but between the prosecution, the attorney general of new york and the judge in this case, it's another be an interesting case. >> absolutely, and someone paying close attention from the start was, of course, donald trump. i have seen donald trump at his arraignments. i've seen him a civil court. and as i believe i sit on the show before, he was unhappier in civil court, because this goes to his legacy, his origin story, as you noted, ali. it has proven to be an important case, a case with many linkages to the other legal trials that he is facing in criminal court. we saw that when michael cohen testified, and two of trump's criminal defense attorneys in the hush money case were there to witness that. they were clearly doing their research. the lead attorney for trump in this case is christopher hice. he, of course, is one of the attorneys within the classified documents case. we're seeing some of the same patterns that we have seen in the criminal cases play out. and the gag order that you just introduced the segment with, it could be seen as an effort to undermine proceedings. at heart, they are accusing the judges clerk of bias in a kind of indirect way to discredit the proceedings more broadly. trump has attacked the judge. trump has attacked the clerk. it's the same a.g., this in pattern that we see play out and the january 6th place. it's partly the reason why that the gag order issued in this case was such a bell weather, because it was this case that first broke that it was the first gag order ever issued, and then the one in d.c. followed up. >> i got the puck side illegal part for a second, because the fundamentals of this case have largely been deterred. the stuff to come is having to do with the penalties. and some other legal matters. there's something about the case that is getting under donald trump skin, and it could be one of a few things. you mention michael cohen, it was the first time that they had seen each other face to face since michael cohen's legal trials. there is fish main, who doesn't really dislikes. and there is the judge, arthur engoron, who seems to be taking no -- from trump and as attorney. something is bothering donald trump. he stormed out of the courtroom the other day. what is it that is getting under his skin about this case specifically? >> it's as he said at the beginning of the segment, ali, this goes to his origin story, to the story of his wealth. he has railed on social media, on his platform truth social about his assets were wildly inflated to the tunes of billions over two years. his network was even higher, he claims, but evidence is kept brought the court undermining the assertions. you see the evaluations brought into evidence, every single property is coming under a microscope, and his former accountants are taking the stand, former executives are taking the stand. every member of his family is taking the stand. that is what makes this case extremely frustrating to trump. as he pointed out, ali, at the beginning of the segment, we have started this trial with a major -- known as a corporate death penalty. if he does not overturn it on appeal, his new york business empire will be dissolved. it will go into a receivership, and now, the stakes remain high. the stakes are, will he, his children and two of his close business associates be forever barred from doing business in new york state, and will they have to pay up to hundreds of millions of dollars in discouragement. it's a serious case, even though it's civil. >> adam, thank you as always for your great analysis and a reporting. adam klasfeld. coming up, the latest job report is, quote, as good as it gets. find out who said that, and find out how good the economy is really doing. that is next. s next makers of the world's comfiest wireless bras. for revolutionary support without underwires, and sizes up to a g-cup, find your new favorite bra today at knix.com take a moment to pause and ask, why did you get vaccinated against pneumococcal pneumonia? 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