crossing into egypt. 79 americans including a family we've spoken with repeatedly on this show made it through. the opals tell us all seven of them, abood who we spoke with yesterday, along with his wife and their 1-year-old, and hanine who we spoke with a couple of weeks ago, her two small children and newborn have all made it out, and they are on their way back home to the united states right now. a blessing. but what they left behind is a horror. another strike on another refugee camp. bread and water lines, the fuel crisis, and a gaza city that is no longer recognizable. the bombing has been so destructive and deadly. the calls for a pause, if not a cease fire, are now coming from the white house. we'll explain where president biden now stands and what got him there. his secretary of state, antony blinken, is in the air, and headed for another round of shuttle diplomacy, with one of the main focuses still on the hostages. on that note, there has been no news, and no known progress in negotiations. if anything, there's been a regression. as hamas's spokesperson, a senior leader in the political wing who has been known to be in discussions regarding the hostages has now told the middle east outlet that hamas will never stop. >> that's gazi ha mad, you have likely heard him being interviewed from the bbc, his exchanges with richard engel, speaking to the arab world, hamad said no one should blame hamas for what they did on october 7th and hamas will keep on committing october 7th violence just like this, over and over again, that what hamas does is justified. an interview so heartless that baskin who has spoken with him says he's done talking to him, writing in part, quote, i believe this will be the last time i ever communicate with you. i think you have lost your mind, and you have lost your moral code. i never imagined that you would justify the killing of innocent people. my god, babies, whole families, burned alive. old people, children killed in front of their parents. i have called israel's bombing of innocent civilians a war crime. i care more about your people than you have ever cared for them. you built tunnels and bunkers for your own. not one single shelter for the people of gaza. you and your friends are directly responsible for the tragedy that is happening to your people. you and your friends will pay the price. but first, millions of palestinians are paying the price for your hate, your fanatic ideology, and your lack of humanity. joining us now, gershon baskin, middle east director for the international communities organization. he initiated the peace negotiations that resulted in the release of israeli soldier gilad in eleven. if anyone couldn't picture the person on the line, we now know. who we saw there. that interview, by the way, was done on october 24th, more than a week ago. it only just got surfaced, by the way, when was the last time you spoke with gazi. >> four days ago, and he went radio silent. he and the hamas people i have been talking to repeatedly, and for many years before the war. >> did you get any indication this is how he felt? >> we've had some very difficult exchanges since october 7th, including him saying that we will fight to the death and we're not afraid, and we will kill a lot of israeli soldiers when they come to get us. they have been very difficult exchanges, but they were par for the course, i think. knowing that we are in a war situation, they are being bombed, and the horrific things they did inside of israel, october 7th. my continued talking with him had one aim, and that was to try and get hostages freed, and hopefully to try and limit the number of innocent civilians who were killed in gaza. all the talking that i have ever done with hamas or anyone is for the aim of trying to save lives. but i understood that something happened to razi hamad. he was a different person than the person i have known for the last 17 or 18 years. >> why are you surprised that he would say this? >> he out of everyone i have known in hamas over the years was the only person who actually demonstrated humanity on several occasions, for the five years and four months that gilad shalit, the israeli soldier was held in captivity. there were many times he was able to speak to me as a father, thinking about his own children. i tried to humanize the discussions when we talked about the fate of gilad shalit as much as possible. i have done the same thing with the bodies of the two israeli soldiers but more importantly with the two israeli civilians who are alive in gaza since 2014, who had been held in captivity. i once told hamad about the pain of the mother, not knowing the fate of her son, and he came back to me once and please tell her that he's fine and we're taking care of him. maybe it was a lie. maybe it was false. but it showed at least some kind of humanity in him that he understood the pain of a mother for her lost -- for her missing son. >> so what changed? >> when he said in that interview, and other interviews he had done since the war began, and when i learned he wasn't even in gaza anymore, that he escaped gaza before the war, he had to know that this was coming, at a time when i have been trying to convince him over the last months to spend a few days with me in cairo for us to brainstorm together on how to break the deadlock between israel and gaza, and then i discovered he's in beirut, being the primary spokesperson justifying what hamas has done. >> you also call out qatar in this open letter that you've written. you say that qatar is, you know, housing hamas. do you think qatar is a reliable negotiating partner right now to try to get these hostages out? >> the americans put a lot of weight on qatar because america's largest military base in the persian gulf is there, and there are a lot of interests, apparently, but if we're going to be honest with ourselves, there's no way of not saying qatar isn't a state that supports terrorism. it has housed the leadership of hamas for years. it has funded hamas with more than a billion dollars over the years. it runs in the arabic al jazeera, which supports hamas all of these years, and if the americans were willing to compromise their interests in qatar, the americans would have told the qatari leadership, and if qatar doesn't do that, i believe the americans should list qatar as a state that supports terrorism, and let's see what happens to the billions they've spent on the world cup and on qatar airlines and all the investments in wall street and silicon valley and the properties they're buying in london, a state that supports terrorism cannot engage in the economy of the world in the way it does, and i think the americans need to be tougher with qatar. >> secretary of state antony blinken is going to do another round of shuttle diplomacy. presumably he'll be talking to the qataris, why do you think the americans don't take the tough line with qatari. >> there are interests involved, not only the military base but served the american interest in other hostage negotiations with taliban, and groups in iraq. so i guess they found them useful. my personal belief is, and i've said this from the very beginning that the best possible channel to hamas is egypt. egypt is a neighbor of gaza. egypt has been the primary negotiator in achieving cease fires in the past. egypt has direct contact with the decision maker in gaza who is deep in the tunnels underneath gaza. he is the head of the political and military factions in hamas, and he is the person with primary responsibility. i don't think that the qataris are talking to the decision makers in hamas. or the other hamas dignitaries who sit in five star hotels and are living it up with qatari protection are not the people who can deliver the hostages. the hostages are in gaza. we need to be talking to the people in gaza. >> do you think there's still opportunity to get the hostages out, to get the children out? >> there's no doubt that the clock is ticking. the decisive moment will be when the israelis enter the tunnel system in gaza. and i don't know how they're going to go about it. i'm sure there's all kinds of technologies and robots and explosives. once the fight moves from the street to the tunnels, the hostages are in direct harm's way. they are standing between the israeli army and the hamas militants who are holding them hostage. and then we're at a decisive moment where it might be that the israeli government is saying in order to achieve the larger goal, which is removing hamas's ability to ever threaten israel, we have to sacrifice the hostages. those who we can't save, and that's a very sad moment because israel has a moral responsibility to bring those hostages home. >> yeah, it's horrible to think about. let me ask you about the palestinians and the gazans. you also write in this letter that hamas has done nothing for the gazans. they built tunnels and bunkers that they haven't built a single shelter for gazans. is that something you hear, anger toward hamas? i haven't heard it in the interviews that i have been able to do. >> i haven't heard it during the war but i heard a lot of this before the war. i get a lot of phone calls from people in gaza. they know i'm someone who has helped people in gaza. there's a young student we sent her to university to learn computer science and another woman whose sister's home and her sister and brother-in-law were killed and they were left with five children, orphans, and i raised a lot of money from the family. i get phone calls all the time asking for help. i tell them to speak to ha mad, he was the minister for social affairs, and hamas is supposed to take care of their people, and the response even from people who did go to call them, most of them said we're afraid to go to hamas. most people said hamas only helps their own people. they won't help us. the common citizen was not helped by hamas ever, and now hamas is responsible, directly responsible for taking them back 75 years, and what we're witnessing is a trauma equal to the catastrophe of 1948. >> and you're saying hamas is the one that instigated this. >> hamas in their terrorist attack, in their refusal to negotiate long-term understandings. look, i'm not removing responsibility from israel for one moment. israel is guilty of occupying another people for 56 years and not willing to grab the palestinian people, liberation, freedom, self-determination, the right to have a life of respect and dignity, just like israelis want for themselves. there is blame on israeli soldiers as well for the continuation of this conflict. this is a very difficult conflict. we have had a failed peace process and mr. netanyahu and his allies together with president trump and others helped to remove palestine from the agenda of israel and from the international community, and therefore the united states and others have a burden of responsibility as well. how long can countries in this world talk about a two-state solution, and only recognize israel? it would have been so much better years ago if we had put the two-state solution up front, if the united states and others had said we recognize the state of israel because we want a two-state solution, and let's help two states negotiate borders, in jerusalem, refugees, economic issues, et cetera, et cetera. when you leave one side in control, whatsoever, we have the occupier and the occupied. we cannot expect that after all of these we're going to have peace if we don't work to make peace. >> gershon baskin, it's been really good to have you. in that letter that you wrote to your counter part for 18 years now, and i use counter part relatively loosely because obviously, you know, i'm not going to put you on the same footing, but somebody that you have had a relationship with, cutting him off and saying that he has lost all of his humanity. it was something to read, and it's worrying for the future of those hostages at the very least. gershon, thank you very much. >> thank you. joining us now from beirut is nbc news foreign correspondent matt bradley. you were able to talk to gazi hamad today, who gershon mentioned is in lebanon. what did he say? >> reporter: we had a sit down, and i asked about the comments he made on lebanese television, he said there would be a second, third, fourth, october 7th. i asked how is that for hamas and the gazans and for israel to stop attacking the gaza strip, here's what he told me. how can you ask for a serious fire, stop their regression when you go on television in lebanon and say that you will continue your aggression again and again and again? >> to stop? >> reporter: if you're asking for a cease fire it has to be two ways. >> we want to continue again this occupation. this is our legal right to fight against the occupation. according to international law, in europe, you fight against them. >> reporter: and he said a couple of other interesting things in our conversation. he mentioned that hamas would release all of the hostages if israel would stop attacking the gaza strip, and if they would release all of the palestinian prisoners who are currently in israeli jails, and he also said when i asked him about civilian or attacks on israeli civilians, he kept turning the question back to attacks on gazan civilians, and i asked him, you know, why is it that you are talking about the gazan civilians? none of those civilians seem to have a vote. none of them asked for october 7th, and they certainly looked with a lot of dread, like the rest of us did throughout the world, what they saw happened on october 77th. they said they have a right to attack the israelis because the palestinians are the victims. they are the ones who have been under occupation and he mentioned, again, and we've heard this before, that hamas is the only organization that has been attacking israel in a way while everybody else including the palestinian authority in the west bank and other groups, the plo, that they have been essentially, as he would say, kind of complicit with the israelis, and they haven't been able to stop the expansion of israeli settlements or halt a lot of the pressure and, you know, basically the fighting that's been going on in the gaza strip. >> gazans haven't had a vote, an actual vote, an election in 17 years. matt bradley, thank you very much. coming up, the house is about to vote on the $14 billion israel aid bill, why even some of israel's staunchist allies on the hill are vowing to vote against it. first, though, after initially testifying he quote, didn't know anything about the trump organization's financial statements, what eric trump is now saying he knew. we're back in 60 seconds. a prime target for cyberattacks. but the same ai-powered security that protects all of google also defends these services for everyone who lives here. ♪ ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ [bell ringing] and doug says, “you can customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual.” he hits his mark —center stage— and is crushed by a baby grand piano. are you replacing me? 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>> reporter: this bill should pass the house. i have heard of two house republicans who say they will oppose it, marjorie taylor greene and thomas massey who opposes basically all foreign aid. i think there are probably a handful of democrats who are israel hawks who believe this vote is too important to vote against the measure, even if they find the irs portion o it deeply cynical and unhelpful. but as you pointed out, whatever comes out of the house today is going nowhere in the senate. majority leader chuck schumer thinks this deal is deeply flawed and political. for his part, he says he knows this is a first draft of legislation that everybody involved is hoping to get finalized and to the president's desk hopefully by thanksgiving. >> why, if he knows it's a first draft, why take the time to go through this process when the president and most republicans, i think, would argue and democrats that israel needs this quickly, and they want to get it to them quickly. thanksgiving is three weeks away. >> reporter: he gave some clue to that in his press conference, saying his guiding principle is that the u.s. has to get its fiscal house in order. the ukraine bill, if they do one, is going to have cuts and paid fors attached to it. the paid fors don't pay for anything. what we're really talking about is a way to show some of the more far right members, some of the more conservative members in his own conference that he's still one of them, and he's still going to fight for their priorities even if the math involved here with democrats controlling 2/3 of the government here in washington means he's liable to lose this fight eventually. >> the math also that it doesn't pay for anything, it costs a lot more money than it would normally. that's confusing. let me ask you about tommy tuberville. also confusing. the senate floor last night got really fiery with republicans going after another republican. >> reporter: yeah, this was pretty unusual, katy. democrats have been super frustrated with tuberville openly for months now for these holds he has placed on hundreds of military promotions. we've heard from republicans more quietly about how they disagree with tuberville's tactics, even if they agree with the issue for which he's holding these up. this is about pentagon paying for abortion-related travel for military members. but republicans have mostly kept that anger under wraps. that was not the case last night when a group of senate republicans came to the floor, all of them veterans, and really roasted tuberville for taking this as far as he has. tuberville then responded later today. take a listen to some of his back and forth over the last 24 hours. >> no matter whether you believe it or not, senator tuberville, this is doing great damage to our military. i don't say that lightly. >> i do not respect men who do not honor their words. >> reporter: described it as a suicide mission. >> if i thought i was putting us in any bit of danger, we wouldn't be doing this. >> reporter: you think there's no danger? >> things are being done. things are going as normal. >> reporter: katy, i know you know this, but pentagon officials, the president of the united states, dozens of other lawmakers strongly disagree with coach tuberville, senator tuberville's assertion here that this isn't doing any danger to military readiness. they are fed up with this, and i think we're going towards something the senate to do which is essentially changing their rules on a temporary basis to go around tuberville if this one-man blockade doesn't end soon. >> garrett haake, what a mess. thank you very much. and coming up next, what happens next? what is the israeli government's plan for the aftermath in gaza? what's happening inside the israeli government, in fact? don't go anywhere. nt, in fact? don't go anywhere. right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today. 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>> reporter: it is hard to keep track of all of these individual strikes, individual moments of horror. we can say the united nations is saying four of its shelters where thousands of people have beeneeking refuge, hoping that blue flag will give them sliver of protection, four of those u.n. shelters have been damaged in the last 24 hours. the u.n. is saying at least 20 people were killed in one of those shelters. that's up in the jabalya refugee camp up in the north of gaza. there's reports, as you said, of another strike on a refugee camp. i asked the israeli military whether they have any information on that. they say they are looking into that. they can't confirm it at this time. as you said, katy, as well as the air campaign, which has been going on for weeks, which has extracted such a bloody toll inside of gaza, there is now street by street, ground fighting going on. much of it is concentrated in the north, and it appears that israeli forces are trying to encircle gaza city. they say that hamas's command and control is concentrated in the tunnel network, underneath gaza city. it's also the main population center in the gaza strip. it's home to about a million people in peacetime. we think there are about 300,000 or so who are still inside gaza city right now. civilians who have not yet either been able to get out or have chosen to stay. this fighting is very intense. it's urban warfare. it is street by street, some of it's happening in the tunnels. israel's military says they are killing dozens of hamas militants as they advance further into gaza city. 18 israeli soldiers have been killed so far since the ground offensive, including one senior officer. katy. >> raf sanchez, thank you very much: joining us now, independent journalist, noga tarnopolsky, you know she's covered this saga, this conflict for over two decades. you alerted us to conflict in the israeli government, what's happening in benjamin netanyahu's alliances, i should say? >> well, he's managing a very very unruly and i'd say misbehaving alliance. so in the last 24 hours, his defense minister and his finance minister have been in an open battle about how to advance in terms of israel's relationship to the west bank and the palestinian authority and even how to really protect the borders of the state. so the finance minister who is a real extremist nationalist basically decided to treat the budget as if it's his own money. he wasn't transferring funds. palestinian funds to the palestinian authority, which the cabinet had voted on passing and the defense minister says this puts in danger another potential front, and that the west bank could erupt if this happens. >> so what has been happening in the west bank. we focused so much attention on gaza and all of the horror that we're seeing in these strikes, and the civilian casualties, and the israeli's effort to get hamas. what's happening in the west bank? what's happening with the palestinian authority? >> several things are happening. one is that the israeli army has engaged in a pretty major sweep, especially focused on the city of janine, which has been a hamas and islamic jihad hot bed, but not only has arrested at this point, i think, around a thousand people who he claims are hamas or islamic jihad militants. jewish israeli settlers in the west bank have basically used the fog of war, the cover of war to engage in really just a terrible spike of violence against palestinians living in the west bank. and this is -- has caused damage and death. a few days ago a 40-year-old man was shot dead while he was handling his olive trees. the olive harvest is on right now. it also, again, is causing friction with the army that doesn't want to have to send more and more troops to the west bank to protect palestinians from ravaging west bank settlers. this said, early this morning, one of these west bank settlers was shot and killed in a terror attack in the west bank. so i think it really threatens to get out of control. >> noga tarnopolsky, thank you very much for joining us. it's so difficult, the situation is so complicated. it's not just gaza, it's also the west bank. it's also the tumult within benjamin netanyahu's government. there are so many facets. thank you, i appreciate it. >> there are. up next, what pushed president biden to call for a pause in the war so that more hostages could be released, and could that possibly happen? 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>> i think you hit two or three of the four issues that the secretary is going to be bringing and john kirby shadowed the issue of a humanitarian pause, not a cease fire, the administration has come out solidly against that as a benefit for hamas. but humanitarian pauses, six to eight hours to facilitate the delivery of humanitarian goods. and might signal the administration feels somewhat confident we could see more hostage releases. kirby is right, it's to get aid in and to get humans out of rafah and perhaps as the israelis created a humanitarian pause when hamas initially freed the two duel nationals, it might work that way as well. >> what do you make of the softening position from the administration? because up until now, is it just maybe the potential for hostages? because up until now, we haven't seen any softness in the rhetoric surrounding this conflict. it's all been israel's right to defend itself, and we're not going to tell israel what to do. >> the president on october 10th had a solid frame. we're going to time this based on support to do what they need to do with hamas. you have seen the last several weeks. i think the reason is clear, pressure is building, not just domestic, political pressure from democrats, but a lot of pressure with respect to the terrible losses of life on the palestinian side, as the israelis attack targets embedded in civilian areas. yeah, i think you are seeing the frame change, both in terms of pushing the israelis to international humanitarian law and the laws of war, and, yeah, so i think that's probably the case. whether or not there's an or else included in tony blinken's talking points is another matter. i don't think the president is looking for a public fight with the israelis on this issue. he seems to be pretty confident that the israelis will be able to achieve their military objectives. the real problem in the end, katy, is it's not the day after, it's the next six months after. >> yeah. >> who's going to govern gaza once the israelis leave it, and no one has an answer to that. neither the israelis nor the administration. >> let me ask you about qatar, that's one big question, what's the more immediate question, gershon baskin was on a moment ago, and there's been talking about what we're doing with qatar, the americans are doing with qatar, and whether there should be more pressure on qatar to play a stronger role in forcing hamas's hand because they force hamas in that country. is qatar a reliable negotiating partner here? can the american government be doing more with qatar? >> more on the stick side, that is to say? >> yeah. >> i'm not sure. we have an extremely in qatar. very important. without the qataris, i'm not sure there is any hope of any mediation in lines to hamas. so it's -- it's two halves of the same coin unfortunately. they support hamas, they bankroll hamas, yet they serve as potential successful mediators. they've deliv ipart. the question i think is much more a matter of hamas' objectives and its agenda. they're going to control the flow on the hostages situation. i'm not sure the qataris are in charge when it comes to that specific issue. >> what about egypt? >> can play a role, but again, tremendous tension between egypt and seen it in terms of how sensitive the egyptians are to who comes out of gaza. they've agreed to certain humanitarian passages for severely wounded palestinians. reporting suggests that hamas wanted their own fighters who were injured to be treated by egypt and the egyptians said no. again, as much as we -- excuse me, the biden administration, believes it's in control, the reality is that israeli -- israel, hamas, and egypt frankly are the three most important parties now in terms of understanding and watching the conflict. we're doing i think everything we can -- i come back to the issue of or else. if, in fact, the israelis do not listen to antony blinken, is the administration prepared to up the ante with additional pressure? and we've seen very little of that. i think the president does not want a public fight with the israeli prime minister. so it's a bear hug on the assumption that if you generate trust in the israelis you'll be able to use that leverage down the line. it hasn't yet proven to be such a successful strategy. >> we'll see what happens next. aaron david miller, thank you so much for joining us. see you soon. coming up, what extent some parents and grandparents even in south florida's jewish community, what they're doing, what extent -- to what extent are they going to protect themselves. themselves >> woman: why did we choose safelite? we were loading our suv when... crack! safelite came right to us, and we could see exactly when they'd arrive with a replacement we could trust. that's service the way we want it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today. 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( ♪♪ ) right now get a free footlong at subway. like the new deli heroes. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. it's a pretty big deal. kinda like me. order in the subway app today. hi, my name is damion clark. if you have both medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all of these plans include a healthy options allowance, a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month. and whatever you don't spend, carries over from each month. other benefits on these plans include free rides to and from your medical appointments. and our large networks of doctors, hospitals and pharmacies. so, call the number on your screen now and ask about a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. humana. a more human way to healthcare. with the rise of anti-semitic attacks across the country some countries are looking for their own protection. nbc news correspondents sam brock has more from florida. good. >> let it go. >> reporter: between the sounds of gunfire -- >> go ahead whenever you're ready. >> reporter: -- and the gasps of what they produce, you'll find jewish americans and israelis living here. >> i got close. >> reporter: arming themselves at record rates following hamas' brutal october 7th attack and the anti-semitic threats that followed. >> inside the neighborhood we would say -- it says free gaza, kill all the jews. and i'm jewish, and i have two little kids. and i just want to be able to defend myself. >> reporter: one of many jewish mothers we met now trying out firearms. >> yeah. >> reporter: after seeing violent rhetoric explode on college campuses. and here in miami beach, a man just slashed an israeli banner in the middle of the night, one of many reasons that moms like michelle worry about her kids walking home from school. >> who isn't upset over everything that's happening? and any innocent life is -- that's being destroyed is horrific. but screaming for the death -- my death because i'm a jew? no. >> reporter: at a firearm instruction class in south florida led by david kowalski, it's a pro-feel of people you might not expect to find. >> i'm having an out-of-body experience sitting here. >> reporter: grandmothers and guns, not necessarily an obvious pairing. >> don't want to be a sitting duck. somebody comes to hurt me or my family. >> reporter: dave sells firearms and offers classes and says his phone has been ringing off the hook. after the hamas invasion did you see an immediate change in business? >> yes, absolutely. there was definitely an uptick in jewish americans who want to protect themselves and their families. >> reporter: his classes went from one or two a week to one or two a day. as for the current reality -- how many of you never thought you would ever personally own or use a gun? it's not something many in this group have grappled with until now, and it's happening coast to coast. >> so we can hardly keep our head above water. >> reporter: this rabbi runs the only nonprofit on the west coast doing community-wide education, firearm training, and security in los angeles where hundreds of people are showing up at meetings. >> since october 7th, there's been just an insane spike, and i'm telling people that, you know, before 9/11 to after 9/11 flying will never be the same. and everyone expects that. so before october 7th to after october 7th, jewish communal security will never be the same. >> reporter: the pain and fear conveyed by jews exploring gun ownership compounded by what is called interracial trauma. >> what we know about the jewish community having experienced persecution for so many generations is that we say never again, but we can sense when things are starting to shift. need to take actionable steps to do things in order to feel grounded, safe, and in control. >> reporter: for many of these mothers, there are still reservations. >> scary. [ gunshot ] >> scary. >> reporter: she says ultimately she probably can't wield a weapon, but for many others they say it's a crossroads they've been approaching for years. >> sam brock reporting. that's going to do it for me today. "deadline white house" starts right now.

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