difficult crisis as israel and hamas war enters its -- day. in gaza rockets continue to fly. roughly 250 israelis have been evacuated from the border near gaza. more than a million residents of gaza have been displaced or told to leave their homes. the israeli war on hamas has led to destruction across gaza not just in the north. right now the palestinian ministry of health estimates more than 8,500 people have been killed in gaza including 3,500 children. the palestinian ministry of health is controlled by hamas, but in the past its statistic about death in these sorts of conflicts heeen called accurate. save the children is now warning the number of children killed in gaza in the last few weeks is greater than the total number of children killed in all global conflicts each year since 2019. it is by all accounts by anyone looking at it an enormous humanitarian crisis. it's also become an enormous domestic political challenge. in the aftermath of the terror attack, the worst atrocities committed against jews since the holocaust the u.s. saw a unanimous outpouring of grief and rage for that horrific attack. voters in the democratic party had become skeptical of the israeli government and americans particularly progressives watched as the center left of israelis protest that government's anti-democratic judicial reforms. they witnessed the acutely familiar spectacle of prime minister benjamin netanyahu being criminally charged with fraud and seeking to escape accountability. in the weeks since october 7th as the death toll climbed in gaza protests for a cease-fire has spread both internationally and u.s. holding signs are messages like not in our name, and my grief is not your weapon. others have been more direct. today during a senate hearing at which secretary of state antony blinken and defense secretary lloyd austin were testifying, protesters painted their hands red. they're calling for a cease-fire. there's not a single senator i think who's calling for it in the democratic caucus. there's only 18 members of congress that have signed onto a resolution calling for a cease-fire, all of them democrats you're going to see there. the calls for cease-fire are and it appears from the polling we have -- it does seem at least more popular with the american public than members of congress. one recent poll found 66% all americans support the u.s. calling for a cease-fire with 80% of democrats supporting a cease-fire along with 57% of independents and 5 of republicans. politico reports today former aides to kamala harris' 2020 presidential campaign are collecting signatures for a letter urging the president to seek a cease-fire between israel and hamas. the biden administration for its part has consistently pushed back for calls for a cease-fire. it's also clear that either because of domestic politics or i think more likely this year the skeptical and scope of the destruction in gaza or both, the line from the whis and biden administration has changed notably and considerably since the very start of the conflict back on october 7th. as "the new york times" writes in the first days after the hamas attacks, mr. biden drew prse for his support for israel. but as israel began poundin gaza from the air in prep operation for a ground invasion over the weekend, biden settled over a pattern of delivering increasingly -- he warned it should not let itself be, quote, blinded by rage. last week president biden called for a temporary pause to allow more aid into the gaza strip. jake sullivan stressed hamas' practice of hielding behind civilian populations does not absolve forces from the responsibility. >> hamas is using humans as civilian shields. that creates an added burden for the israeli defense forces, but it does not lessen their responsibility to distinguish between terrorists and innocent civilian and to protect the lives of innocent civilians as they conduct this military operation. >> just today amid the protests inside the senate hearing, secretary of state an tone blinken offered this message. >> i also hear very much the passions expressed in this room and outside this room. all of us are committed to the protection of civilian life. all of us know the suffering that is taking place as we speak. all of us are determined to see it end. >> joining me now is democratic congressman dan goldman of new york. congressman, i believe i'm not mistaken i think you were in israel when the actual attack happened. you've been very vocal in your support of israel's objective of eradicating hamas or getting rid of the leadership or defending themselves. you've also called for i believe a humanitarian pause. i'm curious what you think what that is and what it means. >> well, look, i think a cease-fire is misapplied here. i don't actually quite know what it means. certainly hamas as you mentioned continues to fire rockets. they continue to hold 240 hostages including 31 children as young as 9 months. they have done nothing other than to butcher and slaughter and rape and torture israelis to indicate that there's any reason -- that there's any interest of theirs in peace or a cease-fire. and let's remember there's been many cease-fires between israel and hamas over the years, and there was one on october 6th. and on october 7th hamas broke that cease-fire. and what's important on that is you be to recognize hamas is a terrorist organization. it does not represent the values and the freedoms of the palestinian people who live in gaza. so hamas is not only a threat to israel's peace and security, it is a threat to the gazans' peace, security, and prosperity. so the need to eradicate hamas is there not only for israel or for world as a terrorist organization, but we need to do it for the palestinian people. that's why we have to recognize it's a war against hamas. it's not a war against the palestinian people. so i guess the next question is what level of destruction and death makes that calculation change? i mean lots of folks are understandably skeptical of any hamas led agency in the gaza ministry of health but all indications we have so far is there's enormous search s in gaza. thousands of civilians have died. today this strike at the refugee camp seems the perfect example of this sort of situation. the idf said there were tunnels underneath with a top hamas commander, in fact someone active in planning october 7th they say they struck that complex and struck the tunnels underneath it. but there's buildings above it, and cleary civilians in those buildings, and clearly some of them are injured asked some of them died. is there some level at which it becomes untenable to continue at this pace if another 10,000 people lose their lives or 20? is there a limiting condition? >> well, it's absolutely devastating and heart breaking to see the innocent lives that that are perishing. all lives are equal, and it's as devastating to see the palestinian deaths as it is the israeli deaths. we have to look at what the rules are for armed conflict. hamas does not play by the rules. they obviously put their military structures and infrastructure under hospitals within the civilian population when israel warns palestinians to leave particular targets or to evacuate, hamas is well-known to discourage them or even prevent them from doing it because their strategy is this propaganda strategy to use the civilians as human shields. as -- and i agree, though, with jake sullivan, that that is not sufficient to absolve israel of its obligations, to do everything it can to protect innocent civilians. and, you know, a lot of it comes down to the fog of war. if it is true, as israel claims, that there are -- those were military targets, that there were master minds behind it, if israel did provide some degree of warning and they have been pretty consistently doing that even though it's to their military strategic detriment then they aren't abiding by the rule of armed conflict. there are unfortunately going to be deaths. the question is what is israel taking to do what it can to protect innocent civilians while executing its military strategy, and that's where we really need to focus. >> yeah, and again, it's a grim calculus here and a hypothetical, but i wanted to push on this because i think it's relative to broadly opinion across the world, the way that international actors will work, which is if there's a process here that appears defensible to your mind, and i'm not saying whether it is or not, the process that's defensible, i still wonder is there some limiting condition? if this goes another six months at this pace, is there some point at which it just seems the costs can't be supported because it -- it seems to me in the abstract there must be. right, can you imagine coming to that point? >> well, i think part of the problem is that you're looking at the calculus from the wrong way. if hamas doesn't want its citizens or itself to die anymore, then it should turn over the hostages and it should surrender its weapons. no one is asking or calling on hamas to coo much of anything to help the palestinian people, and i think the responsibility goes far beyond israel. it does include israel, but it also goes far beyond israel, and it goes to egypt and goes to hamas itself which siphons off food and electricity and water from its own people. and that is a very important aspect of this, because my sense is this would be over a lot faster if hamas would give over the hostages. why are we not talking about the fact there are 240 hostages they continue to hold? >> no, i couldn't agree more. i think morally there's just no question. they just slaughtered men, women, and children in their sleep so i don't think anyone has any delutions about them as an entity. to me the question is leverage. i mean if the u.s. has leverage to get hamas to release the hostages, it would be insane for us not to use that obviously. it just doesn't seem we have a ton of that. the asymmetry here isn't so much a moral asymmetry as it is what the relationship is to the two combatants in this war. like i don't disagree with you about hamas. i'm just saying, yeah, if we could control what hamas did, that would be a very different world. but that's not the world we live in, right? >> yeah, but we can't just accept that as a given and therefore put all the responsibility on israel to do the many things hamas should be doing. and israel absolutely must abide by the laws of armed conflict. they must abide by international humanitarian law. they must ensure food, water, medical supplies and shelter get to those people who have been evacuated because of israel's war effort, but hamas also needs to take responsibility for its own people. unfortunately, it has siphoned away billions of dollars designed for the gazan people where they're keeping the hostages and using the fuel and electricity much needed for the civilians. so i'm not -- i'm not saying israel can do whatever it wants. obviously it has to abide by the laws of armed conflict, but there is no metric here where you say the laws of armed conflict only apply up to 10,000 deaths. after that -- we need to look that israel is allowing that humanitarian aid to get in, doing what it can do warn and protect the civilians, and that's where their obligation is. if hamas persuades civilians to stay and not evacuate the areas where israel told them there would be a bombing, well that's not israel's fault. part of this is, yes, there's an asymmetrical moral high ground here, a moral clarity as to who was willing to do what. and obviously hamas is at the very bottom. they're subhuman what they did to israeli civilians, but that has to also factor into the calculus. when you're saying israel has a right to defend itself but we need a cease-fire, well, how are they able to defend itself? they declared war because hamas started this war. israel is saying, no, no, you can't possibly continue a military operation to get your hostages back. certainly no one said that after 9/11, after pearl harbor and i think that's important to keep in mind. >> congressman dan goldman, thank you for your time tonight, sir. appreciate it. >> thank you. joining me now is a democratic and progressive strategist, working with people in that caucus of house democrats calling for a cease-fire. tell me, first of all, about what the sort of status of that is within the democratic party right now. how would you characterize it? >> i think the movement is growing in the public. and right now there's 18 cospaupsers for the cease-fire now resolution. the coalition is growing. it's a multi-faith, multi-generational movement. you also have people, congressmen calling for a humanitarian pause which i think is a step closer to cease-fire. i think in a couple days and weeks you'll start to see even more members of congress calling for a humanitarian cease-fire. yeah, i think the vast majority of democrats are still stuck on representative goldman's talking points which are that essentially an argument for war. i was very disappointed to hear the representative's comments just now. these are the same comments made about why the u.s. had to occupy afghanistan, had to occupy iraq with no end game in sight. there's no plan for what to do after hamas is obliterated at all. and i think that comments -- comments like the one the representative just made, there's no plan and no end to how many palestinian civilians or israeli civilians have to die until democrats start to say or members of congress say it's enough. everyone knows there's going to be a point where we will say it's enough because every time as the israelis say, as the israeli government says there is a cease-fire. it's just a matter how many people die until then. >> i think the stated goal of the israeli defense forces in this is not to quote-unquote mow the lawn or but to get rid of hamas. they view it in those terms. second of all, it seems like a lack of a plan sort of goes in both directions, which is to say a cease-fire is a thing you do tomorrow, but to people that say, like, hamas needs -- it is intolerable to allow them to continue to go as they are right now, what's the response to that. >> i think that's a great question. the united states must use its diplomatic and financial leverage with our ally, the ally we fund militarily to put pressure on them to empower the secular authorities in the west bank who have been the leadership of the palestinian people but have never been empowered to actually be at the same table and negotiate in recent years with the israelis. we've gotten further and further from a two-state solution as netanyahu and his government expand settlements. i don't think hamas should be empowered to come back with any armed capability in gaza, but there does need to be a diplomatic settlement to this. the idea there's a military solution to hamas and to the israeli-palestinian conflict is absurd. we have tried that for every two decades we have tried every solution. in afghanistan just recently we've had this president, president biden and president trump negotiate with the taliban who are equally if not more horrendous than hamas. but because we saw there's no military solution to what was happening in afghanistan, we have empowered diplomatic efforts to try to end violence. that said i -- i just to what w happening in afghanistan, we have empowered diplomatic efforts to try to end violence. that said i -- i just they be compelled to share. that's next. nformation might they be compelled to share that's next. attention hearing loss sufferers! do you struggle to hear loved ones? do you have trouble keeping up with conversations? do you listen to tv on max volume? hearing loss affects your life. you miss out on important moments... you feel alone. start hearing better today with rca's all new, advanced hearing aids. these aren't cheap amplifiers that don't 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and/or the death penalty. >> that was donald trump's son, don jr., giving his attempt at a rendition of a coherent argument last night on newsmax, having a bit of trouble. there's no evidence chinese government sent secret checks for wire transfer to president biden's grandchildren. nevertheless, that guy, that incredibly adept retter titian, don jr., that dude is scheduled to take the witness stand tomorrow in manhattan in the courtroom sworn to tell the whole truth as part of a $250 million civil fraud trial where he, his brother and other trump executives were found liable for inflalting the value of properties and other assets. this ongoing bench trial, which means there's no jury, it's a judge, will determine the amount of damages. don jr.'s brother, eric, will take the witness stand thursday. donald trump is set to take the witness stand as well as his daughter ivanka. barbara mcquade is an msnbc legal analyst and she joins me now. so let's start here. it's sort of wild the whole family's going to sit for this. i guess the first question is obviously you have an absolute constitutional right against self-incrimination in the fifth amendment. that can be evoked any time and even in civil proceedings. we saw people do it in questioning during the january 6th committee testimony. do we have any anticipation any of them will invoke that right in the testimony in the civil trial sph. >> yeah, chris, i think it's quite possible. during their depositions donald trump and eric trump invoked their right in this case 400 or 500 times. and so as you point out there is no criminal exposure in this case because it's a civil case, but of course any time you say something under oath, in court it can be used against you anywhere including any subsequent criminal prosecution, so that's why it might be something that they want to do rather than lie and commit perjury or say something that might expose themselves to criminal prosecution. but one thing that's really different in a civil c