an escalation in gaza in the wake of that terror attack that left 1,400 israelis dead. you're looking at live pictures. widespread reports of sirens and exploegs. the israeli defense forces saying today they are stepping up their ground operations. take a listen. >> their ground forces are expanding their ground up aerations. idf is operating at all dimensions in order to achieve the goals of the war. we will continue to attack in gaza and its surrounding, and we keep calling upon the people living in gaza and iran that south from there -- >> the idf did not say troops have entered gaza though it's worth noting israeli tanks have temporarily entered gaza over the last two days. all of this while the fate of the 200 hostages held by gaza is unknown. back channel negotiations are ongoing in the midst of the conflict. just a few hours ago repeated explosions were seen in the israel-gaza border. a few miles away on the ground in gaza near total darkness that was interrupted only by flashes from the air strikes. you're looking at video that was shot just a few minutes ago. there's currently no internet or cellphone service. the red crescent, that's an organization, tells nbc news it's unable to contact its operation in gaza. the situation in gaza has been compounded and fears of this conflict may widen. earlier today u.s. forces carried out air strikes on two fucelts used by iranian forces in eastern syria. those strikes were in retaliation for what has been near daily drone attacks on american forces. joining us now, my colleague nbc news foreign correspondent raf sanchez in israel, and former ambassador to the united states and member of the --. >> we've been on the ground and in the weeks since then israel's air campaign inside of gaza. i can tell you tonight felt different. it started with absolutely thundering intensive israeli air strikes inside the gaza strip. you may be able to hear them continuing behind me now. anecdotally you can tell they're much heavier than they were before, and our messages were not being responded to. we were unable to reach our own colleagues, our own nbc news crew inside of gaza, and it became clear the internet was down, that cellphone service was down. and then a couple hours ago the israeli military spokesman appeared on television and as you said he confirmed israel was intensifying an air campaign, but he also said the ground campaign was expanding. now, we don't know exactly what that means. as you mentioned over the last couple of days israeli forces have been operating inside of gaza. two nights ago a column of israeli tanks, armored vehicles entered through the land border. last night's israel's equivalent to the navy s.e.a.l.s landed by sea on the beach in southern gaza where they engaged hamas there. both times israeli officers came and they went under the cover of darkness. now, one possibility here -- we don't know what one possibility here is that israeli forces may enter gaza or may stay. they may try to establish some kind of bridge head, a staging area for an eventual larger israeli ground offensive. i should say we've heard nothing so far from israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu, nothing from the israeli government. ultimately, nicolle, it will be a political decision as to whether to go ahead with a large scale ground offensive. it is not a decision the generals will make. it is a decision the democratically elected government will make. it's shabbat here. we're still waiting for any word. i will say the ground offensive will have huge implications when it does begin for both palestinians inside gaza and the 220 plus israeli hostages who are being held there. the death toll according to the hamas run health ministry is about 7,000. we expect that number will increase when israeli forces enter on the ground. we expect israel's focus to be on the northern end of the gaza strip. israel has been urging gaza's palestinians to get out. even despite those warnings palestinian civilians have been killed in the south, too. before we lost contact with our team inside gaza they were saying to us nowhere is safe right now. but the other big fear for the families of these israeli hostages being held by hamas, by palestinian islamic jihad, by other terror organizations inside gaza is that the start of the ground offensive will mean the end of negotiations. they fear that whether delicate back chams are running through qatar, are running through egypt, that those negotiations will end when the ground offensive begins. again, we don't know what is exactly happening inside gaza. we can't speak to our team. the internet is out. the israeli military has not announced the start of the israeli offensive, but it does appear expanded ground operations are under way. >> raf, stay with us. mr. ambassador, what can you tell us -- first, what can you tell us about what's happening tonight? >> the fact the electricity has been cut off, the cellphone service has been severed is a good indication that we're about to enter into a critical military ground phase of this operation. clearly israel is not in the business of helping the hamas headquarters communicate. this is a pretty good indication israel is preparing to move in a significant number. they may be able to move to create a bridge or staging area for strikes within the gaza strip. i don't know if the entire military force, we're talking about 360,000 reservists called up. close to a half million sole women and men. there has been significant unrest. i would only disagree with the report to say negotiations will end with the hostages. in fact by moving on the ground israel is ramping up the pressure on hamas. hamas was negotiating if they were negotiating at all for a cease-fire. and israel, i don't know, would not be able to return population to the border areas. i don't know if life could go on normally. cease-fire for israel that was a nonstarter for negotiations. i think hamas becomes increasingly under military pressure. its willingness to talk about the fate of the hostages may be actually -- >> mr. ambassador, can you speak to the domestic state of mind? obviously the families of the hostages for all that they have been through and are still going through have a voice. and their voices are heard the world over as they endure this unthinkable horror of worrying about small, young children and elderly parents and grandparents and sons and daughters. and it's clear from the conversation with you and raf everyone knows someone who was murdered vishingly on october 7th. can you take me into the state of minds tonight? >> i spend my waking hours visiting with families. yesterday i visited with three families. in one case a woman's daughter 8 and 15 are in captivity. they know nothing about their fate. red cross has not been able to reach them. hamas won't let any information about them get out. and for them it's unending torture. and there's no good solution here, nicolle. there's ombad and even in some world and universe you could say we could have a pause in the fighting and hamas would negotiate, there's no guarantee hamas would ever negotiate. hamas wants these hostages as human shields. it wants the whole population as human shields. i've known for a long time hamas' main headquarters is located under the largest hospital in gaza. and around that hospital there are 30,000 palestinian civilians who are being held there clearly at gunpoint from fleeing because hamas wants to use its own population as a shield. it's all about survival. they and don't care who gets killed in the process. so i think the main cope we have the hostages is israelwise ramp up the military pressure on hamas, create a situation where hamas can negotiate maybe for survival in some way and then get to a point where our special forces and intelligence can locate the hostages, which is the major whereby major challenge here. we had a hostage who was five years in captivity in gaza. we couldn't locate at all. it's very difficult because they have this vast labyrinth of tunnels and bunkers underground. it's a whole city underneath gaza city. and one of the released hostages, one of the elderly citizens being released talked about being led through these spider webs of tunnels. the hostages are down there. we have special forces trying to do this. people actually go into these tunnels, but we're really going to have no choice. and this whole operation is about no choice, simple as that. it's either do this or as a state i don't know if they can survive. >> raf, it gets to a strategic piece of this. hamas right now controls the fate of its civilian population. nbc news had a story today that there's terror type orders under hamas under a gaza hospital. the civilian population is used. u.s. secretary of state antony blinken made that point. the fate of the innocent civilian population in gaza is in hamas' hands as is the fate of the hostages. it seems at a strategic level as well, israel is facing pressure on both those fronts. can you talk a little bit about the debate to the degree there is one inside the government? >> yeah, i think, nicolle, there are a number of clocks ticking all at once as israeli decision makers from prime minister benjamin netanyahu on down decide on this timed offensive. potentially military pressure increases the likelihood of negotiations. i can tell you we've been speaking tom families outside the defense ministry in tel aviv. they are convinced if the ground invasion begins, that will mean the end of negotiations. it's not clear. we will see what happens. but the longer israel holds off, the potential more time for negotiations, the longer israel holds off going in on the ground, the more time for the israeli air force to keep pounding both hamas and on the surface but also those hamas tunnel networks underground. and also as the ambassador was saying you have 360,000 reservists in uniform, many of whom are ordinary men and women who completed their mandatory military service years ago. they haven't been involved in cam bat in a long time. they are facing potentially just harrowing urban warfare inside of gaza city to say nothing of how harrowing it would be for the palestinian civilians. so every day that goes by, more time to prepare for that. but on the other hand every day of delay potentially comes at a cost as far as the israeli government is concerned. they know the further we get from october 7th, from the hamas terrorist attack, the more the memory of that day will fade, the more global attention will turn to the unfolding humanitarian disaster inside of gaza to the spiraling civilian death toll inside of gaza. the israeli government knows the pressure internationally for a cease-fire may build the longer they wait. and also, nicolle, there's just the question of how long this nation can stay on this level of war footing. how long can you have 360,000 people away from their jobs, away from the hospitals they work in, the hi-tech companies that they work in. and then just how long will the israeli public agree to wait in limbo not knowing if and when this ground invasion is going? so it's just an unbelieveeble complicated set of factors that prime minister netanyahu is taking into account as he makes this decision. i will say, nicolle, just to mine his personal biography for a second for clues here. he was wounded in a hostage mission. his older brother was killed in uganda rescuing israeli-hotsps on the far side of the world there, one of the great crimfes in israeli history. there are very few outcomes as it were when we look at the hostage situation. i don't think anyone thinks there's going to be some happy rescue here where the hostages ils will emerge through the sunlight. the question is how many can you get out through negotiations, how many can you get out through military operation, and it's something these families are anxious to hear. >> i know you stayed up late to talk to us. want to let you go to do more reporting. please put up a hand and we'll zoom right back to you. thank you for your reporting on this night. we're really grateful. ambassador oren, i want to give you the last word. just tell us what else is on your mind, what your callerize like tonight, what you think we are -- if you think we're on the precipice of a new phase of this. explain that to us, what we're about to see. >> i just want to add to that excellent report. the reporting is really truth and accurate. i'm in a bomb shelter here. we've been hit by successive barrages and stuff. schools will be called off. the country is half paralyzed and even we have to mention that it's not just what's going on in gaza but throughout the state of israel. we've had rockets fired from emialen, iranian backed rebels from yemen. americans are engaging tonight in hostilities, firing back at iranian backed militias shooting at u.s. bases in iraq and syria. the possibility for a wider conflict is very real. we always say you know how wars begin, you never know how they end. i can think of several scenarios. a group of israelis who think maybe we should have contained hamas first and focused on hezbollah because hezbollah is many times the force of hamas. but the decision was made to move in on hamas first and perhaps deter hezbollah perhaps. but we don't know. in israel i think if i had to find the feeling here it's one first of all of relief. we've gone through three weeks of unbearable stress, tension and sorrow, and finally the army is moving into action. so there's that relief. at the same time, nicolle, there's tremendous fear because we know this operation is very costly. we're deeply, deeply concerned about the fate of the hostages and we don't know where this war is going. so we're braced -- we're braced for a very difficult war. >> i appreciate what you say. i appreciate you not getting ahead of the moment. you're really gracious to stay up and talk to us tonight. please come back if things develop. thank you very much. i want to bring in my colleague nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel. he's along the israel-gaza border. richard engel, what are you hearing and seeing? >> reporter: well, we're seeing an intensification of israel's bombardment into gaza. and it began several hours ago with air strikes, about two hours of sustained air strikes and a lot of tank fire and artillery fire, most of it directed to the northern part of the gaza strip. this area that you can see, which is completely blacked out now behind me, there have been we've seen heavy machine gunfire as well, so there was an intense period that lasted about two hours, and then a more sustained campaign that is continuing now and continuing into the night. much of it is focused right in these areas to the north of gaza city and according to a statement by hamas, which was actually relayed by hezbollah, so there's a degree of coordination, they describe how israeli troops have moved into just this part of northern gaza and that they were engaging them and there was street fighting under way. the problem is it's a desperate problem for the 2.3 million people living inside gaza as they're now cut off from communications. there's as far as we can tell total blackout on landlines, internet. that means all the internet based applications you can use to communicate, so we are not able to reechl our teams and the palestinian red crescent which operates emergency services and relief says it can't reach its teams. so the people of gaza who are already closed off from the world and under attack are now cut off from the world and unable to communicate with the outside world and to a large degree unable to communicate with themselves. that's what we know. what we don't know is where this is going. we heard from the israeli military just hours before this intensification, it was intensifying assaults by ground and by air. is this the big push? it's hard to know because it depends on what you thought that big push was going to be. >> richard engel, do we know anything about what might be happening militarily? i know there's been some reporting that some of the targets were hamas terrorist leaders. do we know if the military strategy perhaps unfolding behind you is a pursuit of individual terrorists, or do we think it's part of what everyone talks about, an effort to flush them out of this intricate tunnel system? do you know the aim of the israeli military strategy? >> well, the israelis themselves have said the aim is to destroy the tunnel network, and they gave a presentation earlier in the day saying that there was an extensive network of tunnels in gaza, which there is, and saying that those tunnels also run under hospitals and other places where vulnerable people gather including schools and u.n. run schools. this is not a series of surgical strikes. this is much broader campaign than that. what we don't know is are they pushing in -- are they pushing in to stay? is this some ground fighting that will end soon? but there definitely is an uptick in the amount of attacks inside gaza right now. >> and richard, something everyone has given voice to, and i want to ask per your reporting because it's usually in a legal of its own is the plight of the families of men, women, and children being held hostage by the hamas terrorists in the gaza strip. what is your sense of their state of mind tonight as you've been reporting seems to be escalating? >> they must be absolutely terrified right now because there have been daily small demonstrations but demonstrations by the families saying that this government should do more, should give more time to negotiation. hamas has said repeatedly that if the cease-fire -- if there is a cease-fire, that it would be willing to free civilians. israel clearly doesn't take hamas at its word, and an advisor to prime minister netanyahu says that the best way to get hamas to release these hostages is with pressure, is with military pressure, and we're seeing that right now. but there is not a universal consensus in this country to launch an even deeper ground offensive into gaza. people are divided about that. what we're seeing at this moment right now could be an another attempt by israel to put pressure on hamas, to release those hostages, but the people in gaza who are are above ground are being attacked and in their homes. and hamas, which is underground, are fighting back. earlier in the day they did launch even despite this assault several more rockets toward israel. not many but they did manage to launch some. and hostages who were freed have said that they were kept in the tunnels. so if israel's goal is to destroy these tunnels, which it says it is, which those tunnels run under the gaza strip and hospitals and sensitive areas, of course those hostages are in danger as well. >> richard, i want to come back to the first thing you said which is the questions or possible coordination between hamas and hezbollah. ambassador oren also talked about a strategic decision made by netanyahu and israeli government about pursuing hamas first whilst hezbollah represents a potentially more lethal threat. can you take us through what you understand and what's behind your reporting about possible coordination of that strike from hezbollah tonight? >> there is coordination that goes on between hamas and hezbollah and iran. they're open about that. there was a photograph that was put out by hezbollah a few days ago showing the leader of the group who doesn't make very many public appearances. and the photograph itself was significant. seated next to the leaders of the palestinian islamic jihad which operates sometimes a leader of hamas. they put out this joint front just several days ago. now that it communications are on, it seems hezbollah is doing its military wing a favor by forwarding some of their information. so they coordinate militarily, and it seems they are trying to coordinate in an information campaign, and that going back is one of the real dangers of -- of for us and viewers around the world of this communications blackout, because now we are really only reliant on what we can see. and luckily we have a good vantage point here, and we can see for ourselves quite a bit of what's going on at least in northern gaza not on the ground level and what the israeli military is saying or what hamas is saying either directly or as related to hezbollah and that is a problem. you never want to be beholden to a government at war or a militant organizations that are considered terrorists groups by many governments around the world including the united states. >> you just succeeded in upping my anxiety and concerns for your safety and all the journests there as our eyes and ears, as the only reason we're able to understand -- i know you're safe. you're talking about the people. >> reporter: we're on the israeli side. the fire is going into gaza from here, and i think you can see some of it. there is a little bit of a lull here, so we don't know how long this will last. it is -- it is shabbat. in a way the timing is significant, but it was exactly three weeks ago that that attack was launched by hamas on a saturday morning at 6:30. we're now approaching that time. it is late in the evening here. i believe it's just past midnight. so we are at that moment when -- when three weeks ago israel itself was attacked, when militants from gaza, from hamas 1,500 or more cut through the border fences, blasted through the border fences and went on a killing and kidnapping spree inside israel. >> you've been so generous with your time. let me ask you one more question. from your knowledge of the region, do you think that the timing is all strategic military planning, or do you think that there is something symbolic about this escalation really commencing in earnest on the three-week anniversary of the terrorist attack? >> well, i think all wars are extensions of politics. they are politics through violence, so everything has to be considered. there is a clear military component. israel could never accept to have a military group armed and capable crossing into the country and going into a killing spree. prime minister netanyahu his political career is scrumbling before his eyes. people are angry at the government for not keeping them safe. israel is embarrassed by what happened three weeks ago. his air of invincibility was damaged. to a degree, yes, it has to hurt hamas, it has to try and make sure hamas doesn't have the capacity to do this kind of thing again, but it also has to restore its deterrence, restore its reputation but not drag the united states and into a war or unleash riots or protests across the muslim world. and protests are already beginning. there are protests now in four major palestinian run cities in the west bank now. >> richard engel, i will not tell you to stay safe since you've already reassured me you are safe, but i really appreciate you staying up for us. please come back if anything on the ground changes. thank you very much. >> reporter: i think we'll be up late either way. thanks. >> thank you, my friend. we're going to stay on top of the story with the assistance of raf sanchez and richard engel and ambassador oren, and all the experts and journalists who have come to aassociate with this extraordinary tragedy unfurling in the middle east. we are going to shift our focus back again unless events require us to go back to the region to politics here at home. the brand new speaker of the house of representatives is out in a big way where it matters to him most and his base. he fashioned himself these are his words, as a quote rule of law guy. unless you believe respecting the will of voters as part of the rule of law or holding donald trump or george santos accountable under that same rule of law, then if you do the hypocrisy, and the dishonesty, and the bad faith notion of even describing youfrm as a, quote, rule of law kind of guy is a little much. we'll explain when we come back. plus, the suspect in the mass shooting in maine right now remains at large. we'll bring you the latest reporting on where the manhunt is right now as we're learning more today about the 18 souls who lost their lives suddenly and tragically wednesday night. we'll have those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. ues aft. don't go anywhere today. oh, hello! hi! do you know that every load of laundry could be worth as much as $300? 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(feedback rings) have a choice in how you invest with schwab. and back here at home the more we learn about the man suddenly thrust into the spotlight of the house speakership, the more he resembles his version of the modern republican party. still a little unfortunate considering the gravity of the times in which we live, but it makes perfect sense. speaker mike johnson, that's his name if you haven't committed it to memory yet. mike johnson appears so far to be a walking, talking, living, breathing, other self-righteous, list of inconsistencies and outright contradictions. listen to way he described himself to shaun hannity last night when talking about marriage equality. >> i'm a rule of law guy. i made a career, i respect the rule of law. when the supreme court issued the opinion, that became the rule of the land. i respect the rule of law and also squen whereinly love all people regardless of their lifestyle choices. >> lifestyle choices. 1982 is calling, and they want their words back. so a rule of law guy, where have i heard that before? oh, yeah, the supreme court numnys when asked about roe v. wade. so coming from a guy who voted to decertify the, quote, most secure election in american history, that was a quote from a lifelong republican because the new speaker candidate couldn't accept he lost, that's our rule of law guy. it doesn't stop there, unfortunately. on the potential expulsion of his esteemed colleague, one george santos, who enter adnot guilty plea on a superseding indictment today here's speaker johnson once again. >> here's the reality, john, we have a four-seat majority in the house. it is possible that number may be reduced even more in the coming weeks and months. so we'll have what may be the most razor thin majority in the history of congress. we have no margin for error. my understanding i think he's appearing in a federal court tomorrow, and we have to allow due process to play itself out. that's what our system of justice is for. >> saying the quiet part out loud seems to be the headline there. quote, we have a narrow margin. says a lot, right? now, if you are a new republican speaker -- what's his name again? help me. mike johnson. you have a lot to do already. >> yeah, he has a really long laundry list and track record of policy positions that are extremely unpopular with mainstream america right now and you listed one of them and talking about i guess my lifestyle choices. he'd had a lot of attacks on lifestyle choices. he wasn't just opposed to marriage equality. he's writing op-eds and part of the legal team that overturned the texas law that made sodomy illegal, gay sex illegal. he said he wanted hard labor for anyone in louisiana that did an abortion. so that is how anti-abortion hits. he's not just like i'm a 15-week abortion federal guy, he's no exception even for a young woman that was raped, a young woman that there's incest, the punishment for that should be hard labor. and these are not popular positions, so he has a lot of explaining to do on that. i think on the rule of law point the one that stands out is obviously his effort, and i think the most telling thing when he became speaker is when congressman angualer gave the nominating speech for hakeem jeffries. he said they're putting up the architects that stalled donald trump as an unelected autocrat, and ana poleana shouted damn right and everybody cheered. that's where they're at on this. this supposed rule of law guy his team was saying damn right we were trying to overturn the election. that's very tell. >> we throw around the word architect because it applies to both the executive branch policy apparatus, if you will, and the architect of that was eastman who wrote out a plan he admitted was unconstitutional and illegal. it violated the electoral count act. and it is lose in the united states supreme court. but the architecture on the hill was joining this case designed to throw out the votes in four other swing states. >> it's one of the reasons i'd been thinking you had not heard from him in the past is because they wanted to find a way to marginalize him because he's so extreme. >> have you met republicans? >> and that's scary, right, because as he said it, as he's talking about the marmgens that republicans have, they're in no way strategic. they are firmly ideological because if this thing were strategic they would perhaps start talking about putting more women up for leadership positions because if hakeem jeffries realizes how important new york is to getting the majority, why don't we put up elise stefanik to say new york is important to us, too? but, nope, that didn't happen. and it will not happen not in this particular congress and in that republican party. so the don't say gay bill which he wanted to make national, by the way, all these extraordinary extreme measures, now that person is running the house. and i also think about the sort of split screen. this was happening at a time when you had more and more trump defendants and saying that they would plead guilty for whatever outcome. and what's interesting to me is that on the one hand you've got people flipping on trump, but on the other hand, he has still found a way to force his ideology through congress. so one wonders, you know, is he going to be running the republican party from prison. >> here's the other thing, it's worse than that, right? he had to psz a purity test and before the exact same conduct that three trump lawyers pleaded guilty to crimes that were engaging in. >> not only that but he was whipping other members and trying to bring other people into the scheme. >> the thing that gets you a plea deal in georgia gets you over the line in the house. >> that's exactly what they were looking for. as you said that's a litmus test. it's why tom emmer couldn't get in. so this guy was -- in order to get the speakership, that group of maga 20 that opposed kevin at the start, you needed them and because they're annihilist, they didn't care if the government was working. the only way to get them onboard is put forth somebody not kind of onboard with the coup but really part of the maga organization that pushed forward the coup. that is what mike johnson wants. >> put him on the other side of mike pence. i think this is what you have to sort of i think as a republican sift through this and help people understand, he's to the right of mike pence on questions of democracy. he's to the right of most sort of evangelical religious tv figures that populate right-wing or intersect on issues of marriage equality. i mean he's so far beyond the right-wing. >> you pair that with donald trump's most extreme positions on democracy, and that is who they've put forth to run the conference because they needed people from both of those camps. >> i would say quickly all this conversation about rule of law, he's also a big proponent of state rights and we know how dangerous that is. and we know how far back that goes in the history of our country particularly used around post-slavery and segregation. he did an interview saying he's firmly rooted in the bible. and you want to have that selective piety great. >> and he's telling kids they should be reading about dinosaurs on noah's ark. if the government is going to be deciding what the kids are reading in schools i don't know if we want this guy to determine it. >> the rule of law only served as a talking point to say that as long as marriage equality is the rule of the land, i will abide by the laws. but he doesn't say he supports it. >> that's exactly right. and mind you, he's going to go against everything that the national polls are saying because what they'll do is find a way to make this state specific apparatus work for them. that is a 10, 20, 30-year strategy. the fact of the matter is regardless what the national polls say this is extremely ideological, incredibly dangerous. and do not be fooled. everything they're talking about they're moving resources and strategy to the state level. as a democrat we've got to be prepared for that. >> what does that mean? >> well, that means number one we need to be better resourced and put all the money we can on the states. i think hakeem is doing a good job in new york. california is going to be important. a big proponent of these down ballot races. all of those races do mat because they lift the ticket and we've got to focus on that. >> i was wondering if this was awkward. this wasn't hannity's guy. i had a bit of a i wonder how that went. >> hannity is the guy they call out of the bull pen when they need to blow somebody off. i'll admit it guilty as charged back in the day i threw some people at hannity when they needed to do a bit of cleanup. he looked good in a weird way that republicans needed to look good. he didn't make anybody mad at any of the different parts of the conference, but he has not had to take any fast ball pitches. he's not had to answer to the fact he wasn't just out there on, you know, the technical sides of the coup. he was out there saying the dominion voting machine -- >> the stuff that caused fox a million dollars. >> the crazy conspiracies out there. he hadn't had to answer for that. he hasn't had to talk about his positions. he did some pushes on guns last night. these were constitutional carry, the most extreme gun views. even then you saw that interview and he gives the weird comment about how, well, it's not the gun's fault but it's a problem of our hearts. >> he leapfrogged right over abbott who goes to the mental health. he leaped right over that. i guess the republican platitude is our hearts. i think democrats should call his bluff. thank you both. thank you for spending time with us. up next the manhunt for the lewiston, maine, mass shooter continues. we'll continue with that after a very short break. stay with us. h that after a very short break stay with us (sean) i wish for the amazing new iphone 15 pro! 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(vo) get iphone15 pro, apple tv 4k and 6 months of apple one. all three on us. only on verizon. trisha didn't deserve that. nobody did. the man that did that has no soul. i pray to god he doesn't do that to no more people. i hope they catch him soon. >> where are you now? >> i'm coming to maine the minute we find out her body would be released from the morgue. i want to hold my baby one more time. i don't care. i want to hold her in my arms. >> unimaginable to have to say that, to have to think that and have to do that. that was trisha's mom, wants to hold her baby one more time. trisha is one of the 18 people murdered in the mass shooting in lewiston, maine. an additional 13 people were wounded as the community there struggles to heal and make sense of the process they can't even start while the shooter is at large. these ruhiffic events took place wednesday night. totally complicated and thwarted by the massive man hunt for this suspect. last night they executed search warrants at properties that belong to him. you can see them there surrounding a home calling for him to surrender. people are still on lock down and shelter in place while this manhunt continues. we're leain about the victims. they include a father and son who were at youth bowling night together. the victims include people competing in a corn hole tournament at the local bar. we expect to hear more about the victims and an update on the manhunt in a few minutes at the top of the next hour. we'll cover that live. but for now joining us in studio frank figliuzzi is here. what's your sense where things stand? >> this is a tragic reminder that there is no community or state in america that's immune from gun violence by any means. a beautiful, small city in maine where people -- everybody knows each other, and it's striking a police and law enforcement community in a state that clearly doesn't have to deal with this with any regularity. it's interesting the press conference this morning with the commissioner of public safety in maine was valuable for me for what was not said. we didn't hear anything about certain techniques, canines, heat seeking infrared from aviation yours, cellphone technology, all which seems not to be working. so what do we glean from that? he's ditched his cellphone. he may be in the water. >> dead or alive? >> you know, based on my understanding of spree killers, and that's what we go on is history and precedent where spree killers there's a better than 50% chance that he's committed suicide. heat seeking technology won't work if the body you're seeking is cold. so the trail is cold, and his body might be cold by now. the other thing he may have planned this out so well, so familiar with the woods and the water that he's got a plan. and i'll remind people that there was a spree killer that killed johnny versace, the italian fashion designer in miami beach. he killed five people over the course of three months. he's still designated a spree killer because he was active the entire process of his flight from law enforcement across the country. it was one continuous spree. so i don't want to tell people this is going to take three months, but you need to understand this could take a while. >> what does that mean for the people living in this community? >> it's a tragedy on so many levels because it's not only a tragedy for the loved ones and people lost but entire communities who have to now fear simply taking out trash to the curb might cause violence and an encounter. we heard the commissioner today even say they've got a plan tactically for apprehension even for the search teams, the dive teams that are going into that river. you can't just do a routine dive. they have to worry he's going to popute of the woods or use a sniper rifle to take a shot at the searchers. everything has to be done methodically to protect even the people who are trying to find evidence. >> in profiling people like him, what do you see in this mass shooter? >> i see mental illness. i mean there's no question. and i realize people may not be in the mood right now to talk about yellow flag laws in maine and where this fell apart in terms of mental health professionals and law enforcement. there's clear reporting that the military understood he was very will as did his family and reported it to the police. it's a reflection of his mental illness. it's unpredictability in terms of law enforcement trying to figure things out. there's some reporting this letter found was not particularly helpful because it was rambling. well, that's the mind of someone we're dealing with here. >> i want to make clear we're showing these pictures because the manhunt is under way and we believe the more people see him, they could say something if they were to see him again. that's the reason these images are on your screen right now. basil, here we go again, another family grieving and brought to their knees and in this instance the yelling can't begin. >> five years today is the anniversary of the tree of life shooting synagogue. you know, the first thing i noticed when i was watching the video is this man looks trained. he looks like he knows how to handle this. and my big concern is how many shootings do we have to witness where we see someone carry this massive weapon that should not be allowed to be on the street by anyone let alone someone with a history of mental illness, and to your point because it's a very important one that this is a small community and folks knew each other. i imagine that is what motivated representative golden to say i'm changing my mind and changing my vote. this is no longer an issue that can be racialused or urbanized. the more people affected by this it can begin to change more minds. that's the hope. >> thank you for being back at the table with us. frank, we need you to stick around to the top of the hour. when we come back, we'll take you to that press conference from lewiston, maine. we'll be right pack. lewiston, e we'll be right pack. businesses need 5g solutions today. that's why they choose t-mobile for business. mlb partners with t-mobile to not only enhance the fan experience, but to advance how the game is played. aaa relies on t-mobile's network to stay connected nationwide, so they can help get their members back on the road. and we're helping pano ai innovate, to stop the spread of wildfires. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. ( ♪ ♪ ) start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. hi again, everyone. it's now 5:00 in new york on a friday night full of breaking news developments. we're watching all of them on multiple fronts. we'll start here. and that's a picture of midnight in gaza right now. bracing for an escalation in the war with israel today in retaliation for the october 7th terrorist attack by hamas. israel has intensified its air strikes, and the idf says that tonight it is expanding its ground operations in gaza. over in maine we are right now awaiting a news conference on wednesday's horrific and tragic mass shooting that is supposed to start any moment now. we'll bring it to you as soon as it gets under way. unfortunately, we've all covered enough of those to know sometimes there's a last minute update. if that's the case, we'll have full coverage of everything when it happens. on that front today the 18 victims from that mass shooting have been identified. the manhunt for the shooter, robert card, he's the suspect in the shooting, it's currently ongoing. you just heard frank figliuzzi say he thinks it's possible that trail has run cold. law enforcement officials earlier were even searching a river in the town of lisbon. the police chief there called the search effort the biggest he's seen in his 23-yearlong career. three law enforcement officials tell nbc news as of now there are no hard leads as to where the suspect is. back with me in the studio former assistant director for counter intelligence at the fbi, frank figliuzzi. there are -- it's a tragic thing that there are other towns and communities to draw on their conduct and their public presentation of the facts and the search and the investigation because there are so many mass shootings in america, but that is the reality. you and i have been on the air together for several of them. how is this local law enforcement community acting? >> in many ways like a community that hasn't had to deal with this before. you raise an interesting fact, which is it's helpful to pick up and call a community that's dealt with something like this because there are too many of them, but they're very willing to fly in and help. as is the fbi on the ground there offering assistance. that needs to be done. i'm very heartened to hear that now all 18 deceased victims have finally been identified. at this morning's press conference the commissioner said they'd not. they said ten had been identified. it's taken quite long to do that, frankly. there's questions that need to be answered including the response time questions which was a question asked by a reporter. how long did it take to respond to the 911 calls and we haven't heard an answer to that yet? >> the kind of targets that make a parent, every person in our country think two more places that might not be safe, youth night at a bowling alley and a local bar. >> it's family night playing corn hole, it's a wednesday tradition. and now, what, you don't do that? you don't do that anymore? and did he target knowing there's kids and families in there? is there a connection and did the targets appear to be random? in my experience when you're particularly dealing with mental illness and you sit the suspect down and say please tell me why, and when they tell their story it makes absolutely no sense to you but makes perfect sense to them. >> what does that mean? >> there's complete ilogic. we worked a serial bomber case when i was fbi in atlanta. he killed a federal judge, a civil rights lawyer in savannah. we all had the behavioral people come in, his explanations gave no sane reason for what we did. >> john heilemann has sat down with us. we believe in a minute or two we'll be going live to the latest news conference in lewiston, maine, with any updates. it is a sick thing that should never be normalized that we have other mass shootings covering. but that is the truth about our country. this is the truth about our business. to that point, fred guttenburg, joined us yesterday with some of his thoughts and reflections about what these families are going through. and something extraordinary is what frank just said. at this hour yesterday my colleague antonia hilton was explaining that because of the gruesome, hideous nature of the weapon used by the suspect in the shooting identifying some of the victims was a gruesome and lengthy process. these are the parts of the story that really hard to talk about that i question how much of these parts of it we should cover. but some of the inertia of doing nothing is wrapped up in the intublt to hold a mirror up to ourselves as a country. >> the perpetrator of these things mentally disturbed which is often the case, it makes perfect sense to them in their conviction about it. sort of like the moon is made of green cheese and there was hay in the barn so i had to go to the town to shoot these people. it makes no sense if you're in your right mind but makes perfect sense in their minds. there's a microcosm of this mass shooting wenomnen we now see going on and on for years and years where almost we can get to two a day by the end of this year at the rate we're going. and on one level, that makes no sense. there's no rational way in which you can say i understand why this is happening or i can explain why this is happening in a way a person in their right mind would be able to understand. on some level other level there's this crazy logic to it and also has to do with the straight line wave seen between so many of these people are angry, disturbed, white dudes. there's these traces of logic that you can find in a totally insane situation. i don't know have any way to react to this other than hat the level we talk about it now. you can make the point over and over again about america's gun laws being the thing that sets us apart from the rest of the world. we had more murders in america with guns before we had ar-15s on the street. it could be like 30, 40 years and say japan, tel aviv, berlin, london. what's the difference? well, the difference is they have real gun laws. we have these horrible gun laws. but it's on some other level, it makes -- it makes no sense whatsoever. and that's what we're all left grappling with. we make sense of it in the most minuscule way. everything else at the macro level is just too horrible to even try to piece together. i can't remember how many times i've had to stay with you. i've tried to give up in trying to speak about it in a way that makes sense of it. >> the thing i keep thinking about it because it comes in the way of covering the terror attack on israel on october 7th, and there's some dark tsunami, right, of the human heart that those crimes and atrocities, you know, were still being uncovered. i think there was a screening at the beginning of the week for international press in israel. and in talking to the local journalist in this town, what she depicted was a town terrorized by the unknown here, right? a mass shooter that got away. a mass shooter for whom the manhunt has now gone cold and your description of a spree killer that sometimes carries out killings over a period of time. >> yeah, he's definitely categorized as spree killer. wave got gaps in our society with regard to guns and mental illness, and it's inherent in my nature to want to fix what's brogan. and seems to me so obvious inyou talk to responsible gun owners, and by the way 95% of gun owners are responsible, serious people. and if you ask them -- >> let me, if you don't mind i want to have that conversation. i do want to go to this press conference that just got under way. let's listen in. >> we're going to go ahead and load that behind us here on the screen. and i think that shana moss can put that information out following it. some specifics here i would like to note the families approved these photos, sent these photos in to us. for a lot of different reasons i think some of them show a little of their character, a little of their relationships. and some other specifics you'll just see again a picture, a name, an age, and then there's a couple symbols there. and we wanted to be specific enough to what location they ultimately lost their lives at. and again, thank the families for allowing us to even do this. they certainly didn't do need to do that. they're working through their own struggles and rightfully so. i want to start with this and ask for a moment of silence before we continue onto our next agenda item. but that top left as you see it and that is ronald g. moren, 55. and i won't read the ven aus. you can put that all together yourself. 4 years of age. joshua a. seal, 36 years of age. bryan m. mcfarlen, 41 years of age. joseph lawrence walker, 57. arcter, 42. max a. hathaway, 35. steven m., 45. thomas ryan conrad, 34. michael r., 51. jason adam walker,51. trisha c., 53. william a. young, 44. aaron young, 14, his son. robert e. violet, 76. and his wife lucille, 73. william m. brackett, 44 years of age. keith, 64. let's have a moment of silence. thank you for that. i truly, truly appreciate it. we do again appreciate that from the families. they did give us those photos. i did not however have any of the family members pronounce those last names. so certainly no disrespect intended if i in any way screwed up the pronunciation. moving on i'd like to address numbers of the victims i confirmed earlier today with the number 8. and i will tell you that's miscommunication on my part. i was wrong. in talking to our detectives, we had a list for people that had been identified and family members that had been notified. there's also a separate list that involved a family advocacy and whether or not they had been plugged into that. so the reality here is that all 18 of those victims, everybody that we listed here today, everybody has been identified, and their families have been notified. so we are in contact with them. i would expect some more information later tonight. and i'll definitely talk about it tomorrow morning at 10:00, reference to family information center, a new location, and some material around that exactly what service will be available at that particular time. but i definitely wanted to make sure that i correct that mistake from earlier. so several other updates from this morning's briefing. i know that shannon has sent along the aerial maps that we showed or tried to show here on the board. so you have received those. i also think that we had -- shannon is correct on this as well, but the boat ramp, the proper name there was the paper mills trail and miller park boat launch. the address was correct at 501 lisbon street. we certainly like and appreciate everybody working with us to make sure we had the proper location and the proper terminology for that. and other additional updates the boat launch search of the river, they're still out there right now and they'll be out there as long as they can based on the light. and as we mentioned earlier talking about sewners and grid searches and things of that nature, that's time intensive. it's taken them a while to work through there. they want to make sure they do it right, so we're not going to finish that search this evening. i would be surprised if you ever saw divers in the water overall, but tomorrow we'll have additional resources available to us from out-of-state as well as some additional in state teams. so again we'll discuss that a little bit at 10:00 tomorrow. but no surprise as we expect that to go over, and we'll have some assets there tomorrow. they did do a bunch of flyovers there as i mentioned. they did do the sonar searches, some rov, and we'll be back on that tomorrow. the bar scene itself, they continue to do their on scene investigation there as well as at the bowling alley. they did check those wood lines. they may be back in there tomorrow as well, but that is progressing as expected. and i think another major piece of update for you now is to talk about the shelter in place order and where that's going effective immediately. and i'm not a big reader of orders but i think it's important you hear this from a couple different sources. we're going to put out a release. there's going to be a cellphone geofence release to some folk. we've used that a couple times already. but the shelter in place order is rescinded except hunting is prohibited in the towns of lewiston, lisbon, bowdoin and monmouth until further notice. the state police continue to search for the suspect robert card and recommend individuals remain vigilant. businesses may choose to open or remain closed. the commissioner is here to help us answer any additional questions on that hunting piece. what that means is that the general shelter in place has been rescinded specifically hunting, again, is prohibited in those four towns and those four towns only. it's important i mention that bots the rest of the state is allowed to continue with their only resident day, saturday, tomorrow. and what does that mean? that's means there's going to be communities that hear gunshots from time to time because they're going to be hunting. we're going to ask everybody to use caution in that and not think everyone of those gunshots is exactly regarding this crisis skagz swsh this investigation. clearly if they think they're suspicious and concerned they could certainly call their local agencies, but i would ask them to think about that, where they're located, when did they hear that, if they're 150 miles north do they need to call their 911 center and create a response, and i think i would say no to that unless they saw another set of facts, a fact pattern that would lead them that there's a connection between that gunfire and what they've heard to this point. so we had mentioned why we made that decision initially because of the crisis and the situation we had. those four towns in particular clearly with lewiston and the tragic situations here and you have the boat launch. so this is not to say that the crisis is over, the emergency is done, we can go about our lives as life is good. we want our folks, we want our residents to remain vigilant, to pay attention to what we share for information. i, again, focus on what we share as the department of public safety and the city of lewiston because we continue to see a lot of information from a lot of different places that is far from accurate. i would also say in that regard when we say that we're going to meet you here at 10:00, we're going to meet you here at 10:00. and when we say we are going to notify you, we are going to notify you in the afternoon if we're going to get together and what time that is. i just encourage you to believe that until i prove you wrong and i won't. there's going to be a press conference at 1:00 and gets 100 e-mails and says is it going to be 1:00, is it going to be this. and you've got a job to do, i get it. if you could help us do our job that would be greatly appreciated. so that is some of those pieces for updates from what we worked on this morning. a couple of additional things. neighborhood campuses, as an example, i did not speak to that. so we talked about large deployments of officers in various locations, what would that look like? neighborhood canvases could be a couple of officers knocking on the door. so that's going to be happening at various locations around this particular area in multiple towns. again, if somebody is using their own common sense and says that doesn't seem right, sure, call. but you could have two uniform officers clearly displayed badges jumping out of a marked car to come call you as detectives. there was a question around the rival times and we'd done some research on that, which was hot off the press walking out the door to come here today. spare time. and as we mentioned earlier that initial time occurred at 6:56 p.m. the cad system or someone calls in on a radio and says i'm out of that location, the first lewiston officer arrived based on that system at 7:00 p.m., so 4 minutes later. the reality there is are, however, there were four plain clothes officers that were shooting on the range in that general area, they hear that call come in and they're walking into the bar or rather the bowling alley in about a minute and a half. so they don't have radios, they don't have uniforms. they hear it, respond immediately and then they address the threat and clear the building. for that same location, right, spare time, as an example you have lewiston is a self-contained police department, they work with everybody. they don't have specific areas to patrol. calls came in to dispatch centers from the department of public safety that would cell the maine state police as an example at 6:57, so a minute-ish later. and we didn't have necessarily have troopers inside the town, so a minute later we had our first troopers arrive which is pretty good response time considering it's an urban atmosphere and troopers aren't here. the second set of calls as we discussed came in at 7:08. so this is the bar and grille. and the first officers responding there at 7:13 p.m., so five minutes later. and then really it becomes exponential after that. as an example, should have mentioned this earlier but spare time, a minute after those initial officers respond, eight more there. now we're saying now everybody is starting to roll in about the same time and about ten officers are responding to the bar and grille immediately thereafter. you've got the first folks and people are showing up from the police department and other locations. and that particular call for service for the maine state police through department of public safety dispatches, we got that second call at 7:10, about 2 minutes later than the lewiston center received it. and we had officers responding and arriving about 3 minutes later. why is that? they're already flying to the first address and now we've got a second call and now they're diverting to that second call. they're in town and they're running hard to that location. so those are the arrival times that i was asked about earlier today. i think based on the list that i made this morning, i think that's all we had for information. i'll call that updates and follow-ups, things i knew you were asking. there were some additional questions from the general public, which have been good for us to receive those through these. they get a chance to see stuff and say what does this mean. we had a bunch of people reach out about that shelter in place and what does that mean and what should i do and what does that look like, and rather than answer those through conversations through city staff and leadership, police chiefs we decide to rescind that order again but recommend people remain vigilant as they move forward. all of that contact has something to do with our ultimate decision, where do we know from here. with that in mind, that was the information i was asked and the information i can update. and we do have i believe the suspect picture up here as another piece. and the reason that we did this because it's been quite some time, we've seen that photo and you have a bunch of different photos. this in fact has more of the physical description of his height and weight and his more official hair and eye color. you can guess at that based on some of the photos you see, but why do that if we can directly give you that information. so if you can freshen up any material you have there. it does again show that bround hooded sweatshirt and dark cargo pants in the photo we had released earlier, which showed him walking into spare time with that firearm. so i think that's the information i wanted to get out to you today. i appreciate you coming back or holding on. where know you have long days and long nights, so that piece you were going to be around anyway i'm sure. i am again happy to try to take some questions and answers. the chief is here as well. we did want to keep this tight from an operation standpoint. yeah, sure. so officers are required to qualify a certain number of times a year, right? so in this particular instance the officers are in plain clothes, they're shooting at a range right around the corner. the call comes in, they hear that, and they're going to respond which just speaks to when these things happen, everybody's going. you could be a detective, the chief out of the station, wherever. everybody goes. so being lewiston officers they go we know where that is. everybody gets in the car and they immediately go to spare time to help in any way they can, not knowing that in fact they're going to be the closest there and the first out. so that cuts almost 2 1/2 minutes off the original -- or the initial uniformed police officer's response. and that's not uncommon from a police standpoint. sometimes you've got months thinking i'm right around and all this stuff happens, and sometimes roim right around the city when other stuff happens. we're lucky the officers were that close because i think you save lives with timed responses. and in an atmosphere depending how buzz busy the night is, that response could have been much longer than that. >> any credible sightings of the suspect by either law enforcement or the public since the shooting took place? >> we have, again, 530-plus tips and leads that have come in. some of those have been sightings. some of those have been -- and i would say it's as simple as i've got a vacant house that's in this location. i own a barn that i'm afraid to go to. there's something over here that concerns me. so those things run the gamut, and i'm also going to use that opportunity of the fbi supervisory agent in charge who has been with us during these press conferences, we gave that digital information out this morning. there's already 100 entries in that system. that means you're putting that out and the general public is involved in that wanting to be involved in sending that in. we certainly thank the fbi for their assistance in that kind of material. we've got all kinds. if somebody may say -- law enforcement has not been in the last two days. in that stack you may have somebody say, we see somebody that look like that. i'm not going to speak to the note itself. i acknowledge the fact a note existed this morning, but i'm not going to get into exactly what it contained. >> you said plain clothes officers who responded cleared a building. >> when i say addressed the threat, they're going in the door addressing an active shooter. so they're going in prepared to do what they need to do to make that scene safe. at that particular time, the suspect is no longer there. they're going in as if they were. so the first thing you do you go in and clear that location, make sure it's safe, and then you start working with victims and triaging people and making sure you're getting additional units there as fast as possible. so, yes, sir -- >> when the officers arrived -- the suspect had already left. outside the area of lewiston and surrounding communities, can you talk about the work that's going on further. >> sure. the suspect was not at the second location when the officers arrived. as we discussed this morning, we showed those three maps as specific areas we knew we were definitely going to be working in. somebody may again say, you know, there's a barn over there, there's an outbuilding over there. there's some family property that somebody's uncle owns and can you check that. as those thing come in some are on the checklist to begin with. we do look at those and farm them back out to either tactical units looking at the intervention side. >> a bit of news there by maine's public safety commissioner. first and foremost the names of the 18 individuals who were murdered on wednesday night at two locations, but perhaps most notable in terms of the ongoing trauma experienced by this community, it sounds like no one except the victims in these two locations has seen the shooter. i mean by the time law enforcement arrived -- and it was a very quick response time, 4 minutes for the official response and a about a minute and a half for off-duty police officers who were at a shooting range arrived at the bowling alley. the shooter was gone. the 911 call came in at 7:08 for the bar. the police arrived in five minutes and the shooter was gone. >> yeah, and the first 911 call was a 4-minute response. and as you said a minute and a half for off-duty officers to respond to the call they heard on their radio. so what are we to glean from this? the amount of damage done with this weapon in a very short amount of time is staggering, whether you're dealing with a proficient shooter, he's adept with the weapon and he did it. and by the time anyone felt safe, you know, they're hitting the deck, they're on the floor, they're covering other people up, they're bleeding, and before anyone thinks to call 911, all this damage has been done. so i think there might have been even a delay in 911 being called because people felt unsafe to do so. and 10 the officers rive, and he's gone. so where did he go? was he in that white subaru? do they have security camera footage that could show the car moving? we've got our answer to response time. it's good response time, but now we're left to understand the damage you can do with this weapon in a very short amount of time. >> the other news likely of great importance to the community is the shelter in place order was lifted. hunting banned in a couple of towns but it will resume in others. and that note there about if you hear gunshots, that is hunting season in adjacent towns. >> hunting season starts tomorrow. i predict that throughout the state of maine, the tip line will light up tomorrow because people will understandably hear gunshots nearby them. the call for law enforcement leadership is a very tough call to rescind a shelter in place. i've been involved in those kind of decisions. they're very difficult because, of course, god forbid you make the wrong call and people are moving about town and he's still out there. one's left to wonder whether this was simply a pragmatic decision. look, we can't have entire towns shutdown. or they've got some scintilla of evidence that leads them to think he's left the area or he's deceased. we don't know. my gut thinks this is more of a pragmatic call. you can't shut cities down forever. >> and the somber ritual of a mass shooting that the names of the victims- i'm going to read them quickly. there's something about reading the last names of more than one person where you think of a whole family wiped out, a father and son, a husband and a wife, and it just keeps happening. >> yeah, husband and wife, children, reports that a number of deaf citizens were there because they had an outing together who obviously could not hear what was going on quickly. it's tragic. it's hit small town america, small cities. and unless we fix the gap in our society, unless we really hear from the average responsible gun owner who will tell you in a heartbeat this guy should not have had his weapons, of course not. he's adjudicated, he's involuntarily commit by military superiors. his family has told police they're concerned about his threats. he's got violent ideation. he's talking about shooting up a base, and yet somehow we don't have a mechanism to intervene. or we do but the mechanism failed. we need to find those answers and fix the gaps that exist. i'm not a huge fan of this so-called yellow flag thing where you require a mental health professional to sign off. because i'm not a fan of anything that stands between action and threat. and so if you've got to call timeout and get an assessment first when somebody's already been committed and the police are family are yeah, no, he's going to hurt somebody, then something's wrong with that mechanism. >> i want to ask you a question because you made this comment talking about the amount of damage that can be done by this weapon. it shows it because these response times are -- they are incredible. i don't know that much about this but you're talking about a minute and a half before the off-duty cops get there, and they're seeing the guy's gone and what they're looking at is carnage. i don't have an interest in guns, never shot them, i understand there are people who have a different point about this. what's the other than as a weapon of war, urban warfare, is there any possible justification for anybody who has a normal use of a gun for self-defense or for hunting or any other thing we would consider roept -- is there any possible use for a weapon that can do this much damage and cause this much human carnage in that short a period of time? is there i'm not imagining because my imagination is too limited by my lack of a use of guns? >> when you sit people down who were the staunchest advocates they will tell you their belief because we are that militia referred to in the second amendment, and we are the militia that will fight the up just government that comes to get us, so we need the extended magazine, the high powered ammo. >> it's a hypothetical -- it's a thing there's been no practical use for this unless they're a real life john wick. other than that we don't examples that exist in our current environment. >> there we are, frank again thank you for joining us. john sticks around. still ahead for us another big story we're following today. the expansion by israel of its military operations into gaza. we've been watching explosions over gaza city throughout the afternoon and evening there. it's now after midnight in the middle east. we'll have the latest next. also ahead a dramatic day in court today as the judge overseeing the disgraced ex-president's civil fraud trial has ordered ivanka trump to testify, part of a parade of trumps ordered to take the stand in that case. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. tinues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. your heart is the beat of life. if you have heart failure, entrust your heart to entresto. entresto helps improve your heart's ability to pump blood to the body. don't take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren, or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. ask your doctor if entresto is right for you. when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis takes you off course. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid symptom relief and helped leave bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc tried to slow me down... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc caused damage rinvoq came through by visibly repairing my colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief... lasting steroid-free remission... ...and the chance to visibly repair the colon lining. check, check, and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least 1 heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. put uc in check and keep it there with rinvoq. ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq and learn how abbvie can help you save. we are beefing up the pressure on hamas. we're hitting them hard. we'll be hitting them harder. and the goal as i said to you in a previous broadcast is to destroy the hamas military machine and to dismantle its control over gaza. we're beefing up the pressure, and they'll be feeling it more and more. hamas will pay for its crimes against humanity. hamas will pay for slaughtering our people. and tonight we are starting pay back. >> that was a little over two hours ago from the senior advisor to the israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu. he was in essence announcing what we have been watching in the skies above gaza city throughout the last few hours, a dramatic increase in the explosions as the israeli military clearly seeks to expand its operations into the gaza strip. joining us flow nbc news correspondent hala gorani in tel aviv and retired four star general and msnbc military analyst barry mccaffrey. holly, start by telling us what you're seeing. >> reporter: all right, well, the israeli military has announced the expansion of ground operation. we don't believe this was the full-scale incursion we were anticipating on the ground after october 7th. certainly the number of strikes from the air and the number of tanks and artillery going into gaza that has increased tremendously. as i mentioned there these appear to be more limited tactical incursions potentially to identify tunnels, to try to figure out where hostages might be held, reconnaissance missions. even though we heard across the region the jordanian foreign minister that doesn't seem to be the case. there's been a complete communications walk out with gaza. no cellphone coverage, no land lines, no internet. we had an internet scheduled for someone in the gaza strip, and there's no way for us to communicate with people inside the gaza strip this evening. >> what does a limited tactical incursion include? could that include a hostage rescue? is it establishing a base of operations for what comes next? what does that include? >> reporter: so it could include all of those things. one of theories perhaps is perhaps you have a ground incursion that establishes some control over a narrow strip of territory and from there a base of operations is established. it could also mean, for instance, idf soldiers are going in trying to suss out where hamas positions are in the strip. they have told residents to go south. it has been noted those residents of the gaza strip who fled south have also in some cases been targeted by air strikes especially around the refugee camp area. tactically that's what could be happening. of course they're not going to announce openly what the strategy is, but that large scale ground offensive which was promised it has to be said in the days after october 7th three weeks in still doesn't appear to have taken place. >> hala gorani live from in tel aviv, thank you for staying with us. general mccaffrey, let me bring you in. i'll ask you the same question. from holly's reporting what does it sound like israel's objectives are tonight? >> i think the idf is trying to shape the battlefield. they're keeping hamas off balance. they're trying to keep them under pressure. they're conducting raids from the sea, having tank invasions from the gaza strip. at some point it's likely they'll go in with 60,000 troops. in the interim this pressure they believe may well result in a release of some hostages perhaps 30 or 40. i don't think that's going to happen, but because hamas sees these children and elderly people and israeli soldiers as a guarantee to try to and turn off the air strikes, so we're still not yet into the main battle, but the idf is prepared today go in. >> from the president of the united states to the secretary of defense to the secretary of state has pledged full support with israel as it responds to the terror attack of october 7th. what does that mean for our military and our country, general mccaffrey? >> well, the main objective of the biden administration, certainly the secretary of state antony blinken and secretary of defense lloyd austin is try and prevent the widening of the war. what that means is checkmating around and tell them not to use their surrogate forces of hezbollah and particularly up north of 100% fighters and 120,000 trying to keep that force-out of the war, and they're doing a pretty good job of it. and partially through a massive u.s. military presence at sea and in the air and in the region, and now we're moving substantial additional air defense assets in there. the rocket patriot missile batteries, avenger short range batteries, we're building a deterrent for us to checkmate iran. that's the deal. >> general barry mccaffrey, please stay close to your phone and camera location for us. thank you so much for jumping onto help us with the breaking news. when we come back, there's some big news being made on a legal front today in the trump civil fraud trial in new york city. we'll have it for you after a short break. don't go anywhere. a short break. don't go anywhere. 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(dog bark) it's simply fresh meat and vegetables, with all the nutrients dogs need— instead of dried pellets. just food made for the health of dogs. delivered in packs portioned for your dog. it's amazing what real food can do. we got the house! you did! pods handles the driving. pack at your pace. store your things until you're ready. then we deliver to your new home - across town or across the country. pods, your personal moving and storage team. at 4:00 p.m., i promised a tsunami of news and i wasn't joking. there's a new development to tell you about the $250 million civil fraud trial against ex-president donald trump and his company and his family. today judge engoron ruled that the former president's daughter, ivanka, does have to testify in this case. ivanka's lawyers had challenged the subpoena issued by the new york attorney general on the basis that an appeals court this summer rule ivanka should not be a defendant due to the statute of limitations. but judge engoron cited with new york attorney genel letitia james who had said in a court filing this, ote, while no longer a defendant in this action, she the disputably has personal knowledge of facts related to the claims against remaining indivuals and entity defendants. but even beyond that ms. trump remains financially and professionally intertwined with the trump organization and other defendants and can be called as a person still under their control. during last year's january 6th congressional hearings, we saw ivanka trump testify against her father. >> when i entered the office the second time, he was on a telephone with who i later found out to be was the vice president. >> could you hear the vooims or only hear the president's end? >> the conversation was pretty heated. it was a different tone than i'd heard him take with the vice president before. >> many of president trump's white house staff also recognized that the evidence did not support the claims president trump was making. >> how did that affect your perspective about the election when attorney general barr made that statement? >> it affected my perspective. i respect attorney general barr, so i accepted what he was saying. >> now it looks likhe'll be forced to testifygainst her father once again. although the judge said that ivanka trump would n be called before november 1st, part of a long line of trumps tuesday take thetas in this trial in the coming days. that's what we wanted to ask our friend neil katyal. neil, katyal, you've been standing by for us. is this going to happen? >> it's almost certainly going to happen. and that picture you just showed, nicolle, of the trump sons and ivanka and trump all testifying islly quite striking. i mean youno the old saying families who commit fraud together end up inourt toge and that sure looks like what is going to happen. ivanka is going to try and appeal this as istand it. her claim is that she's outside the jurisdiction of the state of new york and so new york has no sovereignty over her. that is weak claim at best as the judge today found she's totally intertwined with the trump organization. she's happy to take the profits from the trump organization when they sell a hotel. she's happy to take lawyers fees from the trump organization. she's happy to have the trump organization buy her insurance including her worker's comp insurance, so the idea she has nothing to do with the trump organization which is based in new york is i think pretty fanciful. to me i look at this as just another example of the trump m.o., which is it's not just a grift of intimidation and obfuscation. it's the law doesn't apply to us mentality, you can't touch us. and i think the judge rightly said that was poppycock. >> barbara mcquade, how does it work? if she's a witness does trump's legal team cross examine her? how does this work? >> yes. you know, it's important to remember that all three of the trump children are not being called to testify because of their relationship with donald trump as his children. they're being called because of their roles in the trump organization. so i imagine the attorney general will want to ask ivanka trump questions about some of the financial dealings she was involved in. there's reporting that says she was involved in negotiating and obtaining financing for some of the trump properties. those will be some of the questions that the attorney general will want to ask. and then, yes, the trump lawyers will cross examine her. it will be a friendly -- it won't be the kind of heated thing you'll see where somebody tries to undermine the witness credibility. instead i imagine they will use leading questions to try to bolster trump's position or suggest that she lacks knowledge or some other aspect of that. so they'll talk with her with kid gloves but they'll no doubt get an opportunity to examine her testimony. >> i love first of all neil katyal saying poppycock always has me smile on a friday afternoon. and i think about tolsociety and happy families are alike and every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. every unhappy thamfully that's been dragged into court testifies against each other in its own way in a way we're about to do here. examining in careful detail the real parallels as trump mob boss and how he's being prosecuted and pursued now and made me think about what barr said but of the family meaning the family in the sense we use it in the context of organized crime cases. and that seems right. they are one of the many parallels between trump and a lot of mobsters is the family business kind of quality to this. and what we know from various type of mob prosecutions whether they're in civil court or in criminal court is that the members of the family all get brought in because their relations, whether there are business relations or political connections or criminal connections, and they are forced to in various ways turn against the boss. >> i mean, look, and what's happening, like the trend line, neil katyal, is for all of trump's former trumpiest most enthusiastic coup participants legally sidney powell, jenna ellis, chesebro, they've all flipped. i imagine it's more complicated for the family. but what does she do when she goes in court? >> you're exactly right. the chickens are coming home to roost. many of trump's lawyers have now admitted they committed various crimes. so i agree with barbara i think initially the cross-examination -- the cross-examination by trump of ivanka and the two sons will be friendly, but, you know, ivanka has already provided some testimony against her father, and it wouldn't shock if there's a lot more to come. and so the real question to me picking up on john heilemann's, you know, two definitions of family is how long is it going to take donald trump to attack his own daughter if as i suspect she reveals damaging information about him. >> a moment is going to come when trump is going to say ivanka trump, i barely recognize that woman. she was my daughter just for a second. >> yeah, she's living far away from mar-a-lago, way far away in miami, barbara mcquade. >> yeah, i mean it's really difficult i think in this case for him to distance himself from his children, but i imagine it'll be sort of the way i've seen this happen in courtrooms where, you know, the bank robber defendant his lawyer calls his mother to testify and talk about what a good boy he his or their pastor. and the technique on cross-examination there is not to bet up the mother or pastor but instead to suggest they don't know some of these things, right? ivanka trump, you're a white house senior advisor so you were busy with your own job, so you couldn't possibly know all the things going on here. i imagine the cross-examination will be something like that to put some distance between them. i think it's going to be much more difficult with eric trump and donald trump jr. who of course had major roles with these organizationsch. >> before this is over we're going to see barron and tiffany and trump's going to call them in as character witnesses. >> i will make no predictions. it's been a whirl wind of two hours. i'm really grateful to all two of you for the conversation. thank you all. thank you so much for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. we are so grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari, happy friday. >> happy friday. welcome to "the beat." we're covering very significant stories tonightch am in

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