home in connection to lewiston shooter robert card. similar police activity in maine throughout the day. we will keep monitoring the situation and bring you any updates as we have them. as of right now, the suspect is still considered on the loose and not in police custody. the urgent wide ranging manhunt continues for the suspect in a mass shooting that left 18 people dead in lewiston, maine. with the 565th mass shooting of the year in the united states, the deadliest so far, according to the nonprofit gun violence archive. state police say 40-year-old card is wanted on eight counts of murder based on the numbers of victims, and officials have been able to identify the shooting unfolded last night across two locations in the western, the second largest city in maine. shortly before seven pm, a man walking into a bowling alley call just in time recreation, opened fire. several minutes later officials received 9-1-1 calls about shots fired and a nearby restaurant, schemengees bar and grill within an hour police released voters of the shooter who would be later identified as robert kind of bowdoin, maine. they say he was using an assault style sniper rifle that he purchased legally this year. witnesses in the bowling all you described a busy scene wednesday night, filled with dozens of bowlers, including children, suddenly stunned by the noise of gunshots shots. one man explained how he did in he hid inside the bowling machinery to escape the carnage. >> we were inside and i was bowling and out of nowhere he just came in. i heard a loud pop. i had my back to the door. as soon as i turned i saw it was not a balloon, he was holding weapon, i just lifted down the lane. to where the pins were and climbed into the machine, and was on top of the machines for about ten minutes till the cops got there. i don't know how to explain it. >> four miles away at the bar, in a restaurant, a manager named joey walker was among the victims. police told his father leroy joey trying to protect others before he was killed. >> joey walker was shot to death. shot to death and then he went in to tell her that he died as a hero because he picked up a butcher knife from somewhere. he has all that stuff nearby anyway. and he tried to go at the gunman to stop him from shooting anybody. the gunman shot him twice. >> does it change your pain at all? knowing that? >> it made it worse. yeah. it made it worse. >> police have not yet released the names of or any information about the 18 victims. we are learning more about the gunman, who was a longtime army reservist and a trained firearms instructor. the army confirmed that card is based in maine and has not served any combat deployments. this summer wildcards unit was training near west point to new york, his commanders became concerned about his erratic vior, saying he was hearing voices and making threats to the base. he spent two weeks undergoing inpatient psychiatric treatment before being released. cards family also said that he had been experiencing a, quote, acute mental health episode for months, and manic believe the people were saying negative things about him. his sister-in-law tells nbc news that the family told police in military forces with a group concerned. no request beginning whether card should have been subject to mains yellow flag law which allows police to remove asked to remove weapons from the home of someone deemed dangerous. hundreds of law personnel are now searching for that man, robert card, believe him to be armed and dangerous, as of now. last night police located that car you see there on your screen. that's the white subaru. it was in a boat launch in nearby lisbon. they also found a gun inside that car and are looking into whether it is the same weapon used in the shootings. earlier today officials found a note while searching the shooter's home. a neighbor described as basically a compound. police say they are working to determine the notes meaning and the role in their investigation. the man hunt continues in, continues across the region. the coast guard cnn air assets today, national agencies like the fbi providing support. for residents the terror the worst mass shooting in the states history drags on. as two counties are now being ordered to shelter in place. this is an india's consultant. jonathan d.c., chief justice contributor has been reporting this out almost 24 hours tree straight. let me start with you, jonathan, it what we have on the latest. >> let's just, police fbi, atf officials outside a residence of the suspects and they have him surrounded and they are checking it out and we are told this a precautionary stamp, that the area was search previously and they go in loud and with light flashing, announce themselves, as a precaution. we are told that they are doing checks and re-checks because, as you know, this massive search across southern maine continues for this shooter, and they are very concerned that he remains out there and they have very little right now as to where he is. so there are checks and re-checks of residents and they consider by the ground from the air from the woody areas and right now they're outside his home again, doing a check, as it was explained to us, as a precaution. >> if folks had been watching, our coverage in the previous hour there were police surrounding him they were saying come out with your hands up. it sounded like maybe he was in there. our understanding is, that is standard procedure, and the first time they're searching the home. in fact that's where the note was found, if i'm not mistaken. >> and that was found inside the home in an earlier search, and they decided to go back again. this is a compound. it's a large property. as shed perhaps, some underground structure. so they're going back, doing their extra track, as a precaution, as of now there is nothing to indicate he is inside that building, inside that structure. >> i was so struck by this number today, the number of homicides in the state of maine in 2022 was 29 across the state for the whole year of 2022. last night of course 18, homicides in lewiston, maine. what does it seem like in that city? >> it's shocking. it's just a devastating impact that has had on this community. think about those numbers, chris. 29 homicides last year in the entire 12 months. and then in one night, in maybe half an hour, 18 people killed in this community. seven of them just down the street at a bowling alley at a youth night, and for mines in that direction, another eight people killed. and so it has left this community devastated. and think about this. this is a state of 1.3 million people. 29 murders a year, 18 and one night. the representative, the congressional representative from this group, jerry, golden was part of a news conference this afternoon. he said something rather remarkable. he said, numbers like that, he said, gave a false sense of confidence that our community was above this and that we could be in full control. he also pointed out that he had opposed banning the kind of weapons that was used in the mass assault here. this afternoon he apologized to the people of his district. take a listen. >> to the people who are listening of the district, to the families who lost loved ones, into those who have been harmed, i ask for forgiveness, and support, as i see to contain these perilous shootings. >> he said that he is going to do everything you can in the amount of time that he remains a congressman to work with everyone and whoever he might work with in order to make a change. i spoke with a doctor just a short distance from here. he was born and raised here. and his wife, he said, they had looked with grief at this kind of tragedies that happened in other communities. but they would look at one another and say, it can't happen here. and then he said to me, it happened here. it's the same kind of thing that congressman golden and saying to himself. there is no community were finding out that he's immune to this kind of tragedy. and sadly, this community is feeling it in a very powerful way tonight. >> can only imagine. we don't have confirmed names of the victims, as of yet, holding an interview with one, confirmed there are 18. there are also others who are injured, who are being treated. the man hunt continues. and we'll go back to you, jonathan. again, this is a sort of hindsight 2020, but this really does seem one of those situations where there was a series of warning signs, documented and clear in the run up to this. >> his family complained about his mental illness. he was taken away by the new york state police during a training exercise because of the threats he was making during that training. so as for the gun itself, we are told it was purchased legally. prior to his two-week stay in a mental institution, but perhaps his stay there was voluntary, that he went in and based on that that was not a reason to perhaps take his arms away. a lot of questions that need to be looked into as to why and how he got those weapons and was able to keep those weapons. but again, that long history of mental illness seems to be a factor as to why he picked those two locations, looking into whether there was any romantic relationship when sideways, or why he decided to target those places. but we just don't have those answers yet. >> we do have a little bit of news here. this is a social media post from the main state police. essentially confirming, jonathan, what you just said earlier in your reporting. they said the. following law enforcement officials are currently on metal road in bowdoin to execute several burr search warrants the announcements are standard announcements but executing the safety of all involved. it's unknown if robert card is in any of the homes, but officers are using due diligence to apprehend him. rehema ellis, let me go back to you. we have orders from the state police to be on the lookout and shelter in place and in the places closest to where the shooting took so a lot of the situations, the shooter is found relatively quickly, they are either apprehended or found dead at the scene, and we're now going on 24 hours and people must be terribly on edge. >> absolutely. you can feel it in this community. there are clouds overhead here during the day, but there is a cloud, not just in physical sense but in a motional sense, over this community. i'm telling, you when i drove in here this morning, and you see a sign that says shelter in place, that's a stunning sign in america. you don't see that when you walk into a city in america. this is the second largest city in the state of maine, and you've got some 30,000, 39,000, 40,000 people here. folks know one another. now they're being told to shelter in place. folks have left their doors open. folks have left their car keys in their car. now they're being told to shelter in place. schools were shut down, restaurants were shut down, you couldn't get a mcdonald's hamburger in this town today. everybody was sheltering in place for their safety. chris? >> rehema ellis, who is in lewiston maine, and jonathan jonathan dienst has been here working the phones with, me were you nonstop. congresswoman -- is a democrat of maine. until tonight she was the only member of the main delegation in congress who supported assault weapons ban. she joins me now. congresswoman, first let me ask, i know congressman goldman recused represents the state, but maine is not a huge state. i imagine people throughout the state feeling the impact of this as the manhunt continues. where do you see things from your perspective? >> absolutely. it has been a terrifying day, and thank you so much for your coverage. really wonderful comprehensive coverage of the challenges that we are facing right now, in hopes of people have the perhaps we're getting closer to finding this criminal. i represent -- and [inaudible] a lot of people come this unlikely -- -- -- -- people felt so safe. weapon could do in time -- has been -- to know that that person's -- is even -- >> you are just referencing jared golden congressional district today, and i have to say, one of the things that happens relatively routine tragic some kind of zip peoples responsibility for this barrier -- to bans the community sortie -- the time that i have left -- sortie -- - a weapon those assigned a kill. people we have a lot of guns in our state. if you're going hunting for a deer, you're not taking the military style assault weapon with multiple ammunition with it. >> congresswoman shelley -- i really appreciate you taking that, making a little time for us today on a very, very rough day for your state. we're all thinking about. you think of a much. >> thank you so much for time. >> nbc news correspondent sam brock is at that house that is house that is being searched, associate with robert card in bowdoin, maine. sam, we got very very dark images of what's going on there. can you tell us what you can see? >> chris, good evening. right now, we do not see a lot. we've been given specific instructions from police not to have our lights on, this all started about 30, 45 minutes ago. and you can actually hear the helicopter buzzing above. this sequence, i should say, the senior looking at over my shoulder right now from when you can tell is nothing like what it was 15 or 20 minutes ago. there was a sea of police cars, these bullets, all of us down this hill. where i'm standing right now, this is all property of robert card, which is to say, this is a family that owns hundreds and hundreds of acreage. robert card senior lives in that hard up on the hill. i was talking to a neighbor, earlier today, he kept explaining to me, people were getting confused about where robert card junior actually lives. it is family and child home. that's up there. that may spawn questions as to why they'd be trying to get police into that home. certainly, a lot of conjecture, the reports out they might have him cornered or a member of his family main state police just issued a post on x to say this is perfunctory in some case. they were executing a search warrant. it was the due diligence that were practicing, will we have our folks on the ground, chris, police here get on to the megaphone and say, come out with your hands up. we will not harm you. that is also according to the post, practice, of course, anyone who hears that would think there's some sort of confrontation underway. which might be what led to the misconception about what was going on. i will say, there is a period of time it was unclear if he was or was not in the house. now, as you look at the much lower presence, i would say, of law enforcement, not just aerial, a couple of drones up as well. but on the ground to. i saw dozens of police cars walking up here, many of those have now gone. they have not given permission yet to put our lights back, on to advance any further than this. you probably can, see a couple police officers over my shoulder there, making sure the media doesn't move any further up this hill. that said, it does appear that there's someone here accused of 18 murders, they really thought they had him cornered and house right now. you would see a massive presence still, that is dissipated. that official announcement from law enforcement, i felt very confident in saying, right now, this is part of a normal process of executing a search warrant. and not cornering a suspect. >> sam, thank you very much for that dispatch, 25 hours since the initial shootings started in lewiston, maine. the second largest city in that state. we do not have an apprehension of the men believed to be responsible, robert card, remained at large. brandi zadrozny, is the -- covers extremism, the internet, has been doing some reporting on cards online footprint. dr. jonathan metzl a professor of sociology in psychiatry at vanderbilt university. leading expert on americas epidemic of gun violence. he's the author of the forthcoming book, what we've become. living in dying in a country of arms, they join me now. good to have you both here. brandi, maybe you can talk a little bit about what you and your colleagues are reporting out today about robert cards online presence? >> yeah, he had a small online presence, we found a facebook page that seemed to belong to him. there was a twitter account that's reportedly belonged to him. if that account is true, we haven't verified ourself yet. it seems likely that he might have liked some right wing influencers, charlie kirk, don junior, that sort of thing. the thing is, i think we're so used to, because of all the things we've experienced in the past, in terms of mass shootings, finding a manifesto. looking for a political motivation. here, it seems more reminiscent of the 2017 -- spring shooting, which is where a ex military person, who should never have had a gun, had a gun, and used it as he did. >> i want to emphasize that point, it's an important one. we saw in buffalo, a way to promise a shooting, in pittsburgh at the synagogue, and el paso at a walmart. these were all motivated by hatred, they left writings a testing to that. as far as, now it does not appear to be the case here. what it does appear to be the case though, hindsight is 2020, but i just said this to jonathan. -- dr. metzl, this looks about as crystal clear as you can get in the run up to this. there were multiple people from law enforcement, from military officials from family and psychiatrist saying, this person is not. well >> right, it's important to note, i totally agree with you. we often tell that story in retrospect. we tell that after the fact. the hard part about these issues, on one hand, there is nothing, i mean i can give you 100,000 people who meet the criteria, executives person did and it's hard for a mental health practitioner, or an expert, or even a family member sometimes, and further, a lot of mass violence, we think, oh, that person snapped. that they went crazy. people find it's actually a long-standing character illogical issue. how do you know exactly on that one day, that's gonna be the day that this thing is gonna happen. it's really hard before the fact, which complicates this factor a lot of times, the other factor is, many people with mental illness again who hear voices like, apparently the shooter did. factors like that. the predictive factor in this is important. i do agree with you, that story of concerned family members, went to officials, we don't know exactly where it went. this person had access to guns, that is a story we heard that story in the covenant shooting. we had in nashville, we had it in the -- law bliss, shooting it really does speak also to yellow flag laws or red flag laws, how hard it is for people to actually get through the process of the police, the judge,, the doctor, the yellow flag law. to actually get guns taken away. it's actually quite a process. >> yeah, from nbc reporting, liam can't 24 told nbc news, he grew up a mile away from cards family. would occasionally see him around town. said the family's well known in the area. operator construction business. describe them a second amendment at louisiana's who embrace a don't tread on me mindset. that's a fully mainstream view in america. a protective belief. it also sounds like this family was concerned about robert card's behavior as well. >> yeah, you could see that from his social. that's the kind of a sad thing. he had family. he was friends with family members. he had friends. people that knew him to fish and be a member of the community. so, when you talk to her sister, her sister in law said, i never thought he would do this. we never thought he would do this. he had a support system. he had a job. he had a lot of the things that you think would protect someone from falling into violence like this. it is very sobering and scary, honestly, when you see someone like this, who seemed like they had so much going for them. so many pieces of support, this never should've happened. it's the one thing that combines all of the situations that we're talking about. it's the gun. >> you know, i started mass shootings for a living, i studied shootings for a living. i would say that right now, when the middle of the situation. we don't know what exactly is gonna happen. it's ongoing when as we speak. we know these five things that seem reminiscent of other shootings, a lot of times, people will jump to the mental illness narrative, the narrative, they're all important very often. then, when we unpack the shootings afterwards, there are hundred other things that we didn't know about. so, iju people, we know those things. it does seem very familiar. but access to guns, life stressors, substantive views, living in a state with loose gun laws, all these other factors are equally contributory a lot of times. that's point over one, point over, to as we process this, just important to note that mass shootings feel so helpless they come out of nowhere there surprise. you are the people there. mass shootings, it's horrific, 500, 600 deaths a year. most gun deaths in this country are gun suicide. part of violence, homicide, it's actually much more predictable, much more patterned. it doesn't have assault weapons. it happens with handguns. actually, there are things we can do, i think we should be asking, how can we not have this happen in our country? i also think, it's infuriating for researchers like me. we could cut gun depths in half in a year by looking at gun suicide in partner violence and basically the opposite of everything we're doing. right now. >> yeah, it was not lost on me, as we've been covering this brutal situation in unfolding in israel and gaza, this disruptive terror and violence that experience by families in kibbutzes in cities in southern israel. the horrible toll that has been taken on civilians in gaza, the -- violence and death, to have this story happen in the middle of it. it feels both familiar, and i think, appears to most of the world utterly bizarre. and insane. that this nation continues to have this happen. one more question when asked about this, what we know about the vector of this kind of thing. it really does happen here, in a way, it doesn't happen anywhere else. it seems to me a sociological fact that's a combination of a bunch of different american pathologies. chief among them, access to guns. which just isn't rivaled anywhere in any other peer nation. there are other things that are produced this as a kind of bizarre, recurring, macabre, cultural emanation. >> i remember sitting in the studio here at msnbc in 2018. we couldn't believe, it we did a story, we're about to have won a mass shooting a year, it was point 95 mass shootings a day. and we couldn't believe there's gonna be one mass shooting a day in a country like ours. now, we're at i think it's like one point 92 or something like that. just about it to mass shootings, we've doubled since 2018. think of all the mass shootings you haven't heard about. to a day, they're happening all the time. four more victims killed. >> shot. >> shot, right. is there a copycat? think how hard is to get on the news, committing a mass shooting right now. there's something about an escalatory nature about this, in a certain kind of way, what it takes to get attention in something like this. that i think is important. then, of course, it's just the four easier access to assault weapons. which is the tool of mass shooters. >> we still do not know where the suspected shooter, robert card, is at this moment. he's considered armed and dangerous. currently at large for more than 24 hours after he apparently is suspected of shooting up to different locations in the town of lewiston, maine. brandy zadrozny, dr. jonathan metzl, thank you both. >> we'll be right back. ght back ♪ things are looking up, i've got symptom relief. ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means 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before the united nations to call for, instead, what he called, humanitarian pause. >> well israel has the right, indeed, the obligation to defend itself, the way it does so matters. we know hamas does not represent the palestinian people. palestinians are billions or not to blame for the carnage committed by hamas. it means food, water, medicine, and other humanitarian assistance must be able to flow into gaza. and to the people who need them. it means really tumble to get out of harm's way. it means humanitarian pauses must be considered for these purposes. >> those sentiments were echoed by president joe biden yesterday, as he called on israel to, quote, do everything in its power as difficult as it is to protect innocent civilians. u.s. official told nbc news, the quote, shifting any ministration's language was deliberate. the white house has now backing the idea of a pause of indeterminate duration to allow for more aid to get to gaza. and help us trying to gain safe passage out of the enclave. there are, we should note, hundreds of americans in gaza right now. there's at least ten of them, still unaccounted for, according to the state department after they were kidnapped by hamas. in the october 7th terrorist attacks. we believe that they are in gaza being held by hamas. they're also several hundred americans, we don't know the precise number, in gaza. when the israeli blockade to begin. here's an example, one business owner for michigan was visiting family in north gaza. he's now making his way south with his wife, both now trapped in the territory. he described the conditions there right now. >> i can't sleep. bombs everywhere. i can't sleep. every minute i come, i'm gonna die next minute. i'm gonna die next minute. no place safe. no safe place in gaza. i used to buy water to drink. now, no more water to drink. we have to drink salt water. it's so bad. life here is so bad. this is no life here. >> the state department has been working to get americans in gaza evacuated through egypt, th the one rafah border crossing. it hasn't happened. according to nbc news, trapped palestinian american say, nobody seems to know when they will be allowed to enter egypt through the rafah crossing. u.s. government officials are raling elp, one biden administration staffer, according to emails, reviewed by huffpo, ask providence to use their own influence to improve the situation. now, there is a normal international pressure to either negotiate the release of the nearly 200 hostages being held by hamas, these are men, women, babies as young as nine months. or rescue them before any ground invasion by israeli forces. israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu says the country is preparing for a ground invasion of gaza. he said the decision on when will be made by the government special war cabinet, which is part of that new unity government, constituted after the terrace attacks. these rima military briefly sent some tanks and tricks -- into northern gaza to, quote, prepare for the battlefield. the images you're looking at right now were released by the israeli defense forces of the operation, showing tanks firing on targets. it was the third such raid into the gaza territory since the hamas terrorist attacks on october 7th. idf spokesperson said today, the raids are expected to continue, in preparation for, quote, what he called the next stages of war. those next stages of war are raising concerns about a wider conflict in the region. today, iran's foreign minister told npr, iran-backed armed groups, quote, have their finger on the trigger, much more powerful and deeper than you have already witnessed. warning of a potential escalation as israel prepares a ground operation. nbc news correspondent alison barber joins us now from the -- thousands of israeli troops are waiting for orders thank you so much for staying up for us. what's the latest that you've been reporting? >> yeah, we've heard the booms inside of gaza for the last couple of hours now. we've seen one convoy of military jeeps with israeli soldiers heading towards the direction of the border. you mentioned those international calls for a cease-fire, we have not seen or heard anything on the ground in the last 24 to 48 hours, to suggest that something that israel would be open to, in, fact we've heard the opposite. we've increasingly heard stronger rhetoric coming from israeli military leaders, as well as israeli political leaders about the next phase of this war. just last night, but but when it go, in address to israeli citizens, talked about how, in his words, they are raining hellfire on hamas, and he said this is only the beginning. that ground incursion, what the idf is calling a raid into northern gaza, that happened in the early morning hours here, that was the largest ground incursion we have seen to date. according to the idf, the forces were inside there for several hours, targeting infrastructure, as well as tunnel shafts. they say they killed a number of hamas operatives as well. but that they all left after completing that operation, which they described as something in preparation for the next stages of this war. they are increasingly talking about this ground incursion. they have been doing that for quite a while now. the language i think that we've heard in the last 24 hours, from an prime minister benjamin netanyahu, as well as israel's defense minister, that seems to be more pointed. and more direct. the speech that prime minister netanyahu gave last night, it was incredibly forceful about their goal of ridding gaza of hamas entirely. one thing, chris, that i think has been interesting. there was local public polling, the times of israel was reporting on, in that, it was conducted posts october 7th, post the war being declared, people who lived in israeli, israeli citizens in this poll, they said that their faith in the government here was at an all-time low. but it was because they feel like the government failed so terribly when the tear attack happened on october 7th. but when it came to what netanyahu has said is the ultimate goal of israel in this war, rigging gaza of hamas, there was massive public support for that. we're at this juncture where there are all these calls on the international stage to say, hey, maybe we should back off of some of these airstrikes. maybe there should be a cease-fire to get more humanitarian aid in. and some of the foreign nationals out. i think it's a question of whether not premised or netanyahu goes with what the people of his country want. or with the international community is now calling for an everything so far seems to indicate that they are set on continuing this war continuing their airstrikes, and also, moving it forward, and watching that ground incursion into northern gaza. chris? >> there's some reporting recently, just from the new york times, divisions within that unity government. the government wore cabinet. because it is people from different factions in israeli political life. the u.n. as, the u.n. refugee agency which is the biggest social service provider and geo and gaza has been talking about the importance of fuel as one of the key things that's been totally cut off from fuel. that is exacerbating the hunitarian problem with water in hospitals, both of which don't have access to fuel. fuel is what powers the entire strip. they're running out all over. you've been doing some great reporting on that, as well as the hospitals, we play that package last night. ellison barbara, live on the border of israel gaza, excellent press. early pressure you taking the time tonight. >> thank you. >> we will keep you updated with any developments on this story, as we get them. meaning the ongoing manhunt as well as developments that may be happening in israel in gaza. today, was the first day for new speaker mike johnson. how did a man steve bannon dubbed one of the, quote, international architects of the plot to overturn the election 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simple question. but ken buck voted for mike johnson, one of the key architects of trump's attempted coup. in fact, every republican in the house supported johnson for speaker. that's been the consistent story, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, on the trump era. depressing, defeated cowardice, of so-called principled conservatives, as republican party sinks further and further into its dark authoritarian humble. one of the only elected republicans in washington, who's managed to defy that trend and remain relatively consistent in the public critiques of trunk in the maga movement, is of course, utah senator mitt romney. on substance, romney is a conservative. he hasn't gone over to being them or lid. he always has been. he's a conservative republican. on questions of democracy, donald trump, he's squarely in the camp of preserving americas constitution, against its foes. he voted for both impeachment of donald trump. he was the only republican in the senate to support the first one. last month, romney announced he will not run for reelection, in utah. but he did agree to sit down for a new incredibly confessional book with mckay -- who got unprecedented access to one of the most interesting figures in 24 century american politics. i'm joined now by mckay coppins, staff writer at the atlantic, author of romney, a reckoning. of the probe for the senior, and seen this book. i want to take him out to plug the book, which is truly excellent. and people should meet it. it's awful, done so well written. i've been reading it, i've got to read a lot of stuff for work, i really actually like enjoy reading it congratulations. >> thank, you thank. you >> i wanna start on, this the can buck question i think romney views this through the lens of his faith. he's a man of faith, mormon, heuermann a faith. oh of this in the sense of grandeur test of virtue. i relate to it to, as a catholic. a man for all seasons. the devil is out there to tempt you. he's out there to tell you all this can be yours if you just compromise. and watching everyone compromise has driven him a little nuts. made him very angry. it comes across in the, book that story he's telling himself about his own ethical nature is key to how he has navigated it all. >> no question. when he talks about it in public, he talks about principle and integrity, i think, there's also a theological part of this. he could talk about the light of christ, whatever, mormon theology. essentially, he sees this moment as a testing moment. this is a moment when he's seen one member of his party after another, in his view, sell out their principles. sell out their beliefs and ideals. to win reelection. they tell him in private, we agree with you, we can't say in public. he really does, actually gets this from his dad in a way. he frames things in a right versus wrong, good versus evil template. he sees what's happening in the republican party, and what's happening to the country, as alarming in, frightening and bad, it's not just scary, it's wrong. and he wants to be remembered as somebody who standing up against it. >> you mentioned george romney. george romney a fascinating figure, formally different reasons. >> i can read a whole book about. >> he really is really interesting guy. the governor of michigan, ran one of the big three auto companies, he was ceo. the head of hud during racial integration, he was actually an incredibly important republican voice for desegregation in housing. you write about this, in 64, where he played a similar role in the party back then. that he went to the rnc to try to warn against goldwater. >> that's right. the >> warning went unheeded. the delegates enthusiastically lineup to support goldwater, who declared victory by needle in his do good-ing detractors. extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice, he said in his speech. when the convention hall erupted in applause, george remained quietly seated. his teenage son, who traveled them to san francisco, we share one thing. if thousand people cheering and our standing alone, i knew he was right and they were wrong. >> again, he sees this as a moment of a testament of integrity of character. his dad standing to thwart history. yelling, stop. tomorrow that conservative terminology. actually, mitt romney inherited from this experience a distrust, a suspicion of -- moving conservatism. always existed outside of it. in the 1960s, with the rise of the radical right, the goldwater republicans. or right now, with the rise of the pro trump maga republicans. he, like, you he's a conservative. when it manifest in this right-wing populous movement, he's repelled by it. he is afraid of it in some ways. >> mitt romney is repelled in a cellular level by populism of any kind. to be clear. >> he is. he is. >> part of what's happening to. >> he has this rift, said 100 times to me. for every question, there's a populist answer that is popular and wrong. no, he is. he's not a populist figure. there is something specific about right-wing populism, especially in this trump era. he sees in the rise of donald trump, an echo of what his dad went through. >> yet, he made his pact with it. he made his own pact with the devil in 20 2012, of course, he did event with trump. >> he had to court that right wing. advisers who taught, him you need to start reading the national review. you have to start paying attention to what fox news says. in need to learn the language of the right, so you can try to win them over. >> i remember him ripping rick perry's face off in a debate, for being soft on immigrants. attacking him from his right. the mike johnson scenario, in the 21 days of, i, mean i saw romney today saying, maybe you have the speaker -- experience. pretty good idea. it seems to me like just a perfect little microcosm of how this all plays out. do you come away having covered this topic, for as long as you have, and written this book, with some clearer vision for a proper intervention, other than virtue, backbone, principal, all these things that mitt romney talked about. or maybe that's. it. . >> it's character, okay, there is something else. mitt romney said to, me in one of our last interviews, make his point. part of what changed for mitt romney in these last several years, he stopped thinking about trying to become president. and started thinking about his legacy. how he would be remembered. what his obituary would be. he said he thinks that there was some way to get other republicans who think less about the immediate news cycle, the next election, and more about what their grandchildren are gonna remember about them. that their calculation would start to change. that's not just a righteous idea. there is some vanity involved. all politicians want to be in the history books. >> i was it about to say, he comes across, he has a high degree of moral vanity. one of things that come across, as someone as a fair amount of moral vanity. it's a very salutary thing to have. in the end, even if it's like, you have some conception of yourself as being a good person, not wanting to fail a test. and there's some vanity that attends to that, it actually forces you maybe to do the right thing. mckay mckay coppins, where we get your books. romney, rocketing we'll be right back. be right back by the intrusions of religion into our secular government. that's why i'm asking you to join the freedom from religion foundation, the nation's largest and most effective association of atheists and agnostics working to keep state and church separate, just like our founders intended. please join the freedom from religion foundation today. ron reagan, lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in hell. meet the jennifers. jen x. jen y. and jen z. each planning their future through the chase mobile app. jen x is planning a summer in portugal with some help from j.p. morgan wealth plan. let's go whiskers. jen y is working with a banker to budget for 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for an incumbent president running for reelection, i'm sure you know they know of that over the white house. that is all in on this thursday night, alex wagner tonight starts right now, good evening, alex. rsda >> good evening, chris, we are contending that coverage that of the manhunt in lewiston maine. it has been more than 24 hours since a gunman named robert card is suspected of shooting and killing 18 people in maine's second largest city. 13 more were