Transcripts For MSNBCW Katy 20240703

Israel. Two more hostages have been released. Two older women were told, the family of yohevid confirms that she has been let go. They confirmed this just a couple of minutes ago. Lipsitd was one of the founders of the kibbutz. A Peace Activist who the paper says regularly transported patients from gaza for medical treatment in israel. She is somebody thats been talked about a lot in the news over the past two weeks. Joining us now from tel aviv is nbc news correspondent hala gorani. A lot is up in the air. Walk us through what we are able to report right now . Reporter we heard from the brigade spokesperson, the military ring of hamas, announcing the release of two hostages, a source briefed on the talks confirmed to me as well about ten minutes ago that these two hostages were released. They were chosen for release because they were elderly, without confirming the names of the hostages, but you mentioned elderly women. One of the families confirming their release. This comes a couple of days after hamas said that they had offered to release these two hostages but that the Israeli Government had refused to receive them, something that was adamantly denied by the office of the Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. But so far, we are confirming with a source briefed on these talks that indeed after a couple of days of Mediation Efforts led by qatar and egypt that the two hostages are in the process of being released and handed over to israeli authorities. Do we know if its going to be the same route that the other two hostages took . Traveling from gaza into israel directly or potentially is it going to be through egypt . Do we know anything about that . Reporter we dont so far. We know last time they were handed over to israel authorities. So its unclear if this is going to be taking the same route. Presumably one conduit, way of releasing hostages, we can presume in this case the same will hold true for these two elderly hostages, and the question of course is going to be for the family of the more than 200 hostages remaining inside of gaza, will there be more talks led by these arab countries, egypt and qatar to get more people out as of course the entire region is waiting for this anticipated Ground Incursion by israel into gaza. Right now, no word exactly on exactly, i should say on precisely what route these two elderly hostages took to be handed back to israeli authorities. I have heard from families of the hostages saying to israeli leaders and to Benjamin Netanyahu, this should be your First Priority. You should be doing nothing until you get hostages out. And theres reporting from nbc news and other outlets that the u. S. Has been Urging Netanyahu and the Israeli Government to hold off on a Ground Incursion while they negotiate the release of hostages. Is that part of the reason we havent seen any Massive Movement from israel into gaza . Reporter well, we know that according to sources who have been speaking to nbc, that President Biden has been holding up on the Ground Invasion, to order the release of more hostages. Its possible that hamas is using this trickle, two by two release of hostages to put pressure on the israeli side not to go in. We know that that is something that perhaps is a tact tick, leverage, used by hamas to delay or avoid entirely a Ground Invasion by the israelis. We know that theres been of course this parade of visits by european leaders. The french president , for instance, is expected tomorrow in israel, and so long as were seeing this type of diplomatic dance take place, we cant expect this Ground Incursion will be on hold for now. Thank you very much for starting us off. We appreciate it. I believe were going to raf sanchez who is joining us from israel. I hear you have more details as well. Reporter its very interesting. The so called armed wing of hamas in their initial statement announcing the release of two elderly women said this was a deal brokered jointly by qatar and egypt. We know are both very regular mediators between the west, israel and hamas. They later went back and edited their statement, saying it was only egyptian mediation that led to this. Its difficult to know exactly what this means. But it appears to indicate that there are potentially multiple channels going on here. The Qatar Channel is the one we are most focused on. The egyptians have a huge amount of influence in gaza, the ones who control the egyptian side of the Rafah Crossing. Hamas says in this statement that they are releasing these two elderly women for what they call compelling humanitarian and medical reasons. We do not have any assessment of these Womens Health from either the International Committee of the red cross or from the Israeli Governments, but it obviously is concerning. These are two older women, yohevid is 85 years old. They have been in captivity in gaza, potentially held underground in the network of tunnels underneath gaza for more than two weeks now. It was very encouraging on friday to see judith and natali, the American Mother and daughter emerge from gaza in what appeared to be relatively good health. There will be more questions over the health of these much older hostages, and we will only know once we hear from the red cross, the israelis about what condition theyre in. No word about the young hostages, the babies. Yohevids husband was also taken, the founders of kibbutz near oz, which is one of the ones overrun by hamas, and one of the ugliest slaughters happened. Do we have any word on her husband . Reporter at this point, no word on her husband. He is 83 years old, also a lot of concerns for him, for his health, given his age. Near oz is one of the communities where the horror is so concentrated. Whole families either taken or murdered together. Obviously yohevid and her husband taken to gaza together. Both people involved in the founding of near oz, this community so close to the gaza border. Very involved in humanitarian volunteer work. Yohevid was involved in driving palestinians from gaza to israeli hospitals before 2005 when the border was sealed completely. Not clear if her role in Peace Activism played anything to do with her release. All we have in terms of an explanation from hamas is these compelling humanitarian reasons. We were with the family earlier today, you mentioned the young hostages, as well as the elderly. There is a little boy in gaza tonight from near oz, rather his family is from near oz, his name is ohad, he turns 9 years old today. Hes being held with his mother, his elderly grandparents, also, and his uncle was murdered by Hamas Terrorists during the attack on october 7th. Near oz, one of those communities absolutely shaken, potentially will never be the same again. After the attacks. Two weeks ago. You have been talking about that little boy. Its the one with the glasses, right . Reporter thats exactly right. His birthday being marked here in israel with balloons, events around the world. And the concern among his family that he doesnt have his glasses, just a simple parent concern, he cant survive without them. Hes not well without them. Joining us is ger shan baskin, he initiated the Peace Negotiations that resulted in the release of israeli soldier gi in 2011. What are we learning about two more ag its a good step. Any hostages released from gaza is a step in the right direction. Gilad also had his glasses smashed when he was wounded and taken away, and spent five years and four months without glasses, and he also needs them to see. I understand that this was done by the egyptians primarily. I understand that the two women have crossed from gaza into egypt. Where they will be turned over to the International Committee of the red cross and then brought to israel. Maybe they have already crossed the border into israel, and it is the two names that were disclosed in the spokesperson of the armed wing of hamas. These are the two women they released these names on friday night, and said that israel refused to receive them, which was nonsense. Do we know why these two women in particular . Im assuming as was reported, theyre elderly, among the oldest hostages, definitely not soldiers, play no Military Role in israel. Its part of the psychological warfare of hamas to put on a humanitarian face. Its their tactic of using a slow release of people in order to persuade israel to stop the bombing, to prolong the entrance of the Ground Incursion into gaza for as long as possible. Hamas has announced already five or six times in the public both from gaza, from do ha, from beirut, they want a cessation of israeli bombing in gaza. This is what theyre seeking at this point. There were all kinds of false reports about releasing hostages with duel nationality. That seemed suspicious to me. We have to wait and see if that will, in fact, emerge. I dont think it will. Why dont you think it will . I think well see probably more of this. Why dont you think it will . Hamas treats duel National Israelis as israelis for the most part. Gi lad shalid had a french passport that never helped him in any way. Care takers, people of other nationalities, who are not israeli and have nothing to do with the conflict, and i expect hamas will release them also without Anything In Return. They have announced they would release the foreign nationals and i think theres a bit of confusion, when they announce theyre releasing foreign nationals, some people may have interpreted as duel nationals. Hopefully everyone will be released. What about the babies, why would they hold on to the babies, the mothers and small children . Its unheard of. Theres no explanation for it. Its against the quran. Its against the region, must be a logistical nightmare for them, do they have baby formula, nightmares, so many people need medication. People with diabetes who were abducted and need insulin. Theres at least one person whos reportedly autistic, and needs special care. Theres all kinds of people who should be released and immediately without Anything In Return because its the right thing to do. Do you know if theyre able to if they want to, to keep the hostages alive, the ones that need Infant Formula or the like or medications. Do they have access to that sort of stuff, given the blockade . Right, its not only the blockade. We face the reality that 1. 1 million have been evacuated from their homes north of the dprooip. Gaza strip. I spoke with a woman with a 9monthold baby in gaza. She lost her home, shes on the streets. She slept last night in one of the destroyed buildings. She has no food and no water. Is shes just one of 1. 1 Million People who have no homes. It must be a logistic nightmare to take care of the israeli hostages as well, given that theyre probably spread over the strip. Underground. Theyre endangered by israeli bombings as well. This is a great risk for the continued israeli bombings, and hamas is not set up to deal with civilian hostages and their needs. The Ground Incursion has not begun. The u. S. According to our nbc news reporting has been privately urging the israelis to hold off on the ground inkushs. Do you have a sense of the time line, how long israel might hold off or how long they should . I would assess that the Ground Operation is being held off while chances of a negotiated release of some of the hostages is going on. The Chief Of Staff of the israeli army announced today that the army is fully prepared to enter, given the green light from the political from the government, the war cabinet, they are ready to go in. So the army has prepared itself. Probably has all of its tactical plans made, and theyre waiting for the green light, and i think probably the green light is waiting to see if they can bring out more hostages. And im sure that we know that President Biden and other leaders are encouraging them to wait. The french president macron is expected in here tomorrow, and hes also going to be the first foreign leader to meet with the president. Theyre working on arranging that meeting in ramallah as well. It would be the First Time Since the saturday, october 7th, attack took place at one of the foreign leaders coming here is also meeting with the Palestinian Authority leader. Are you in touch with your contact at hamas . I am. But allow me not to talk about that, please. I will not ask you about that. What are you watching for next . Can i end this interview on what we should anticipate . Im hoping that there will be a negotiated agreement between israeli and hamas for a release of the civilians. Probably in exchange for a cease fire for some length of time, impossible to say, i dont know what the details are. The question is whether or not the israelis and hamas can reach an agreement through the help of qatar, and egypt is more engaged. I think theres growing calls within the israeli public to put the hostages first. And this is also a noted change in israeli Public Opinion. It will grow stronger as the days go by. Were hearing more voices from prominent israelis, who say the government has a moral responsibility to first bring out the civilian hostages because israel failed to protect them. So israel has a moral responsibility to bring them back and thats the First Priority. I think were going to hear more from more and more israelis and that is a good thing because the First Priority should be to save human lives. There are a lot more opeds from prominent israelis or correspondents, analysting saying that this is a big failure by Benjamin Netanyahu and its a contract thats been broken that he promised to keep israelis safe, and its not soldiers dying, its civilians killed, slaughtered or taken hostage, and also a lot of anger and demands from the families of the hostages that they be treated as the First Priority, not the second. Not rooting out hamas, but getting them back is the First Priority. Right. And something reported in this evenings news in israel, and this is remarkable. Theres always a call for a special Investigation Committee to be formed after one of these horrific events that takes place that has special jurisdiction and is headed by a Supreme Court judge, and netanyahu is trying to manipulate to have the Investigative Committee be whats called a governmental committee, which has far less powers, directed by the government. Its not independent. They dont have power of subpoena, and they also dont usually issue punishments, sanctions after their investigation. There is an upheaval within the israeli political scene. This evening, after it was reported that netanyahu was trying to prevent the establishment of the special investigation headed by an independent Supreme Court judge. And remember, leading up to this, before any of this happened, there were deep divisions in the country over what Benjamin Netanyahu was trying to do with the judiciary, taking away their power and transferring to the political arm instead. Gershon, thank you very much for joining us. We appreciate your time, expertise and knowledge surrounding this issue. Joining us now is nbc news chief correspondent richard engel. How did this unfold . Reporter theres certain things we know and certain things we do not know. We know a bit of the last, how it unfolded in the end. According to the red cross, a statement from the icrc, they facilitated the release of two hostages, two women, both in their 80s who were brought out of gaza through the Rafah Crossing point, which is that same Crossing Point in southern gaza, connected to egypt where some of this aid has been coming through. That is a similar process to what we saw on friday with the two americans who were released. Were seeing a similar kind of scenario. It was almost the same time of the evening here. And roughly about the same time it took from whether we first got word from hamas that they were released to confirmation. So something of a pattern seems to be emerging in the darkness hours. Hamas will make its announcement through mediation. It will thank a mediator, in this case, it thanked both qatar and egypt. Use the red cross as an intermediary to walk these people, bring these people to safety across the border, and once they are across the border, safely in, in this case, israeli hands, because these were both of these elderly women were israeli citizens, are israeli citizens, then were getting confirmation from the family. They would not get confirmation from the family until they have hands on, they know they are well. They can see them with their own eyes, and one later detail, one of the hostages, who was just released a short while ago, her full name is yohavid lipschitz, her husband is a hostage held by hamas. How did this play out . You can only imagine what the scene was like if they were held together, held separately. Generally hamas is an islamist group. They tend to hold men and women separately. They decided to release these two elderly women for humanitarian and Urgent Health reasons. Oded, is her husbands name, 83 years old, taken with her. Her family has said she needs oxygen, that shes got medication, and they were worried about whether she would be able to get either one of those things while she was held. Richard, what do we know about what might happen next in terms of the hostages . What are you hearing . Is there anything reportable right now . Reporter we know there are negotiations ongoing. Theres tremendous pressure on hamas to release some of these prisoners and hamas has expressed a willingness to release civilians. I spoke to a senior hamas individual a week ago before any of the hostages were released and he said to me, the group wanted to release civilians, all civilians. That included israeli civilians and foreign nationals, foreign passport holders. It has done both of that, released first a group of americans, now these two elderly israeli women and Negotiators Mediators that im in touch with believe that more batches are coming and they hope the future batches will be larger and accompanied with more than just a release. That they will be accompanied with a deal that could pull this region back from the brink of a terrible middle east war, which is absolutely the fear here and in washington. It certainly does feel like we are on the brink. Well see. Richard engel, thank you very much. And joining us now is nbc news chief foreign correspondent, andrea mitchell. What can you tell us about the conditions, the health of the women, what we know about them. Before at least they were taken hostage. Ive heard from an israeli source that they are reportedly in good health. They are not in as richard pointed out not in the idf hands yet. They have not crossed over. They were still with the red cross. They have talked to their families, and both of these elderly women are apparently in, quote, good health, as good as one could be after being held hostage for weeks. One was in dire need of her medication. You referenced that as well. That was another reason adding to the choice of these two women in their 80s, apparently, two israeli women which is interesting because there had been a report that a number of hostages might get out who were foreign hostages, The Americans and other nationalities, but not israeli and that two israelis were released, seems to be an attempt by hamas and the way they are manipulating all of this, with two americans coming out first, to of the potentially ten americans who are still left to try to get america to use its insulin, to try to generate global interest, worldwide interest in urging israel to restrain, to keep the conversations going and as importantly, secretary Brink Blinken made clear to get humanitarian aid in. The truck started to roll when i was on the air. We got the first word, and confirmed that with the red cross. And doctors without borders. So that would have been some time between 12 00 and 1 00. Medical supplies, food, water, no fuel, though coming across the border from egypt into gaza. Point out, still not enough. Not enough. And a lot of concern about aid not being enough and the hospitals not getting fuel they need to continue operating. Andrea mitchell, thank you very much. And joining us is Prime Minister of israel from 1999 to 2011. Thank you very much for being here. What can you tell us about todays news . Its very good news. We hope to see more of it. Its clearly very high on our priorities. We can never lose sight of the real reason we are here. There was carnage, crime against humanity. 1,500 people were slaughtered. Eastern europe under the nazis, world war ii, and by far, the most severe blow suffered since its establishment. We have a commitment to make sure that this events can never again happen. The only way to do it is not through air attacks. It has to do with deploying a major force on the ground to make sure that we destroy every physical, medical capabilities of hamas, and going after the people who perpetrated this, and the very capacity of hamas. This will have to happen. So you understand that this whole operation is complicated. Were very happy to meet them back home. This is a picture that we have up on the screen. This is yohevid, she was a Peace Activist, allowed to drive gazans to israeliedal centers for treatments, a founder of the kibbutz near oz, which is right near the gaza border, where of e most horrific slaughters took place as raf sanchez told us a moment ago. I believe he toured that kibbutz with the israeli army. Her husband is still as far as we know, her 83yearold husband who was taken with her. Youre talking about the Ground Invasion, youre saying it has to happen because israel has to root out hamas. How long should they delay the Ground Invasion to root out hostages. I dont have and even if i would have, im not sure i would sure it with you. The whole operation is taking place under tightened constraints, one is the hostages, the other is the risk that it will spread to the northern border to hezbollah, the international law, our legitimacy, when more and more civilians, even if we complete the whole mission, it will be four or six months from now. There is still a question to whom we will pass the torch of the fueling of the gaza strip, and these constraints are interconnected and picture of details can make the decisions. Take care of all of these problems or sensitivities. Should it just be the war cabinet in talk about what happens next or should you be going to the or should the government be going to the International Community to make sure that that is accepted by the palestinians . Because right now its unclear that the palestinians will accept whatever israel puts in place there, if israel is the one putting in place a government after this. Who will take it from us of course will be negotiated or prepared only with someone else. From 15 years ago i was the defense minister, and some of the same routes. The question was even then, i asked mumbarak, we will take over the gaza strip, and eliminate hamas, will you take it under your international, multinational armed forces to take care of it for a very short period, and take back the palestinian sovereignty. He told me no, no, you cant. The head of palestinian, he said the same, im not going to come back to gaza. But having said that, this was 15 years ago. Now the trilateral deal with the soldiers, a lot of Financial Support could be given by qatar. I would have checked it very carefully, and i hope the solution will be found. But anyhow, we will have to execute this operation against the hamas because no sovereign country can have this kind of al qaeda or isis. Slaughtering its citizens. Thats unacceptable. We cannot live with it. Prime minister, back to the hostages, the families are demanding that this be israels number one priority. Ahead of rooting out hamas. First, hostages. Do you agree . I would leave it to the cabinet, the two issues are both the highest level of priorities. But the decisions could be made only by responsible for both and have to look in the realtime. Its so delicate. So many nuances that it cannot be responsibly discussed over the tv. In terms of negotiation, there has been a look back and potentially some criticism that israel released a thousand hostages for one israeli soldier. One of those hostages, not hostages, prisoners, a thousand prisoners for one hostage, one helped orchestrate the attack. When youre talking about negotiating with hamas, can you do a trade like this right now . Will israel do a trade like this now . Is that even on the table . I dont know what you mean by like it. We have a responsibility of the people, they are not even soldiers. Soldier was taken Military Operation. These people were taken out of their beds or their homes. They are all civilians. There are many of them. Its much more complicated situation, and we will consider every way that might cause their release. Well consider it. At the same time, should be honest enough to tell you and the world, we are going to eliminate the military capabilities of hamas and everything in their capacity to rule over the gaza strip because we have to do it. America sent its forces over in order to kill al qaeda, isis, you call it, and al qaeda, we have them just few hundred yard from our border and we have to put an end to it once and forever, however costly and painful its going to be. Prime minister ahud barak from 1999 to 2001. Excuse me, i extended your term. You added ten years. Im sorry, ill correct myself now, 2001. Prime minister, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Dont go anywhere, well have much more on the breaking news, two hostages released by hamas, heading back or at least heading into egypt, it seems, according to our interviews on this show. Dont go anywhere. We will be back in i think 60 seconds. Hink 60 seconds. Too. Just ask my old friend, kevin. Nothing like enjoying a cold one while watching the game. Whos winning . We are, my friend. We are. Why didnt we do this last year . Before you were preventing migraine with qulipta® . And look at me now. 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We make money from ads, but they dont follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. Back with our breaking news, two hostages have been released by hamas. Norit yitzak, and yocheved lifshitz. Heres yocheved. Heres nbc news Senior Executive editor for National Security, david rohde, we were talking about in the break what hamas might be doing here. And youre saying its a delay tactic, delay, delay, delay, if were doing the math, tell me. First, its wonderful these two women are out, its extraordinary. One of them is 85. One is 79. And so to just step back, as you talked about the math. This morning, israel said there were 222 people who had been taken hostage. That leaves 220. If hamas releases two hostages a week, thats 100 weeks. Its just so unprecedented and outrageous, but that as Hostage Taking keeps spreading that, you know, theyve got more than 200 hostages. Theyre going to slowly release them bit by bit there will be tons of coverage and israel and the United States and all of these emotional families. Its an extraordinary moment, extraordinary and horrible tactic of war. Though they might not be getting a specific promise back from the israelis, theres not a concrete deal being made here. The unspoken deal is if we keep letting these hostages go, bit by bit, we can delay, delay, this Ground Incursion. Delay the Ground Incursion. What might they be doing while the Ground Incursion is delayed . Fortifying themselves . Fortifying, buying time. Getting aid in. Thats part of the first release, the two americans, the qataris were involved in that. Changing Public Opinion . Changing Public Opinion in the u. S. , not in israel, theyre treating people humanely, releasing older women. Step back, why did you take these women hostage. Thats what theyre doing. Some of the negotiates told our colleague, keir simmons, that theres a hope that some countries in the region, maybe egypt, may qatar to try to, again, avoid the ground offensive. Get more aid in there, and sort of start some sort of broader talks to, you know, bring down tensions and that would be, i guess, a positive thing in the shortterm. Im just, again, struck by how extraordinary all of this is. When i speak to israeli officials and former officials, theyre not giving an inch on this. Theres no negotiated settlement here. Theres no we can learn to live side by side. We have to get hamas, out, and were going to do it by any means necessary. That looks like flattening large swaths of gaza to prepare for a Ground Incursion. Im not hearing anything about the hostages being the First Priority as the Hostage Families clearly want. I think theyre, yes, and what theyre doing is continuing this intensive bombardment, at the same time, according to Health Officials in gaza, the number of palestinian deaths has reached 5,000. How reliable are those numbers . Its a good question. Nbc, weve used Gazan Health Ministry in the past. Theres a debate, though, about like the number of people who died in a hospital, the strike last week, which its widely seen as that was an errant rocket fired by islamic jihad. The u. S. Estimate is roughly 100 whereas the gazan Health Officials have said 500. Its hard to say, but theres no question, large numbers of civilians are dying. The bombing continues. Small groups of hostages being let out. Its just a horrific situation. The images out of gaza are really just horrible. The children being pulled from the rubble. The children in the hospitals, the dead kids as well that we have seen. Its it really is awful. The changing of Public Opinion, how much of a play, an intentional play is that for hamas. I think its a play to the United States, to europe, you have the president of france coming. And the region, too, somehow trying to, again, its flipped on its head, israel is wrong to rescue the people and eliminate the threat. What it wont change is israeli Public Opinion. Theres a delicate dance where israeli officials will save these hostages. Eventually there clearly will be a Military Operation but the role of the hostages is bigger than i expected. And its this slow, slow process. David, dont go anywhere, were going to come back to you, but let us bring in independent journalist, a friend of the show, walking us through what shes hearing in jerusalem and what the public sentiment is like. What are you hearing now that theres news of another round of hostages, these two older women . Well, the first thing i want to tell you is there was again tonight another protest. Outside the Defense Ministry in tel aviv, so that kind of public pressure isnt letting up and more and more, you have representatives of the families making their case to the media saying we want negotiations. The Israeli Government says it will not negotiate with terrorists, it has no contact with hamas, and more and more families are openly saying something that used to be taboo in israel which is we want negotiations with these terrorist, and theres more and more discussion also about whether an immediate Ground Operation is israels only option. Prime minister netanyahu himself has been kind of surreptitiously briefing reporters, military reporters that there might be an advantage in holding off far little while. Thats really interesting because it has been two weeks. We have not seen a Ground Incursion. We have seen the amassing of forces on the border, 300 plus thousand troops. A bombing campaign, looks like its paving the way for a Ground Incursion. The Defense Secretary telling the soldiers on the front line, youre going to see the inside of gaza soon, yet we have not seen any movement. We know from our reporting on nbc news and other outlets that the American Government is going to the israelis and saying hold off while we do these negotiations. Now youre saying that netanyahu is privately whispering that to some military reporters. Can you expand on that . Yeah, hes stuck. The white house, by the way, also has an interesting position. On the one hand its Urging Netanyahu to wait a little bit, on the other hand, the spokesperson for the National Security council made a very uncompromising statement supporting an Israeli Ground incursion and opposing a cease fire. So lets say things are complicated all over. Netanyahu is looking for wiggle room. He has very very extremist ministers including some who with no basis at all have announced that israel is going to retake over gaza. And he has this public that is anguished and baffled. Israelis have never been taken hostage in this way. It sort of brings us back to the Hostage Taking in teheran, you know, its that kind of a weird limbo, and more and more israelis feel that these people deserve to be let go. Theres a lot of controversy, some awful statements made about the selection of foreigners to be released. People with foreign passports and not just israelis, obviously tonight these two women are israeli citizens, but hes looking for wiggle room that will allow him probably to let the army continue to build up and make a plan that will satisfy the white house, a plan that has an exit plan, which we havent seen yet. And on the other hand, not let the public criticism get completely out of hand. The exit plan, when i asked barak about that, he said in the past Mahmoud Abbas told the israelis im not going to be brought into gaza on israeli bayonets, dont make my way for me. I wont be accepted. He indicated that he thinks that would change potentially after all of this. What are you hearing about that . Im not hearing anything concrete, but i will say that the dimensions of the Terror Attack perpetrated by hamas are a game changer. And Mahmoud Abbas is also in his 80s. He eventually will be succeeded by a new, younger leader. And i think that more and more, i mean, not i think, more and more israelis, including the leader of the opposition and people from the Defense Establishment are openly saying that the Palestinian Authority in one way or another is the only body that can take control of gaza once hamas is rooted out. Noga tarnopolsky, thank you as always for joining us. Thank you appreciate it. Now lets go to Senior Fellow in the american state Craft Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace aaron miller. Good to have you back. What are you thinking now that weve got two more hostages out . Happy for the families but persuaded that this is more complicated than i anticipated by middle eastern standards, and i think nogas point on growing sentiment among the Hostage Families to excise pressure on the government i think is a really valid one. And i think that hamas calculates that the redemption of hostages is a National Priority for the state of israel. They have engaged in a symmetrical trades before. You have consequences as a consequence of the butchery and savagery that we saw in the hours after october 7th. We talked about this before, the government of israel has a cruel dilemma, it is committed to not necessarily avenging the deaths of the 1,400 who have been killed within a 24hour period but ensuring that this can never happen again. And its commitment to the living. And that commitment to the living, the hostages, dribbled out by hamas in an incredibly cruel game of hostage diplomacy, trying to constrain, a constituency in israel on the part of Hostage Families and other israelis playing on doubts of the Israeli Government that, in fact, a Massive Campaign to eradicate hamas in gaza, to undermine its sovereignty with no plan for the days after might not be a wise move. Its not for nothing that since 2007 no Israeli Government has ventured to do such a thing, even though they faced pressure from the right, and the reason is because security and intelligence leak haves made it clear that the cost to israelis, in terms of gaza and civilian casualties in the day after made those costs prohibitive. Youve got a lot in one other point, which needs to be focused on. We have an undetermined number of american citizens in gaza. Tony lincoln referred to it yesterday in the press conference, as many as 400 dual nationals visiting americans and their relatives in gaza. Representative of Aid Organizations that hamas is not permitting to leave. They are, in effect, hostages with a greater capacity to move around but they are still preventing them from leaving. That focus, i think we should focus more on that. That is also a problem, particularly once the military Campaign Begins that is such a good point. Weve been hearing the dual nationals, the palestinian americans, et cetera, would be allowed to leave when the aide was allowed to come in. So far, we have not seen that. Antony blinken has said that hamas is stopping them. We dont have a reporter to confirm that. That is what the government is saying. I will have john kirby on a few minutes but i will ask him about that. I think that is a really interesting point as well. I had not thought of it in that way. Aaron david miller, thank you very much. We are going to squeeze in some porting reporting before we get to john curry. Speaking of john kirby, at the White House Press briefing about an hour and a half ago, he pointed the finger at iran. He said iran is actively Instigating A lot of this what can you tell us about what you are hearing of iran regarding what we have been covering now . Reporter irans Foreign Ministers have been shuttling around the region. He has been meeting hamas leaders, hezbollah leaders and proxy groups under the patronage in the area. He keeps issuing threats, warnings and stinging ultimatums. Not just to israel but to the u. S. As well. Just today, he said i warned the u. S. And its proxy, israel, that if they dont i merely stop these crimes in gaza against humanity, anything is possible. At any moment and the region will go out of control. He added that the u. S. Military support for israel was evidence of an ongoing conflict in gaza. That israel was a u. S. Proxy and they were doing this on behalf of the u. S. Interestingly, katy, at the end of his talk he added that iran has received two messages from the u. S. Asking them not to widen the conflict and show restraint. I can, the head of the i rgc issued another really frightening warning today saying an attack would be the most practical course of action and that he would launch a strike without hesitating if it was necessary and require these are just a few of the chain of threats coming out on an almost hourly basis. For all of their bluster, i dont think at this stage, anyway, iran wants to get involved directly. Over the decades iran has built, trained, equipped and spent a vast fortune on proxy groups under their command, acts of resistance in order to improve their contract of effectiveness with hezbollah, hamas and other militant groups in the area. With an assortment of militias in iraq and syria. This allows iran to meddle in conflicts and disputes in the region and beyond. While maintaining what they call plausible deniability and avoiding being pulled into a direct military conflicts, where the retribution from Superior Military Powers would be overwhelming. For now, it is a lot of bluster coming out of iran. I dont think they want to get involved directly. Even looking at the border between israel and lebanon. It is true that there has been some skirmishes on the hezbollah has launched a missiles. Theres been some fortat. It has been low level violence. That has been designed to keep the israelis busy on their Northern Front without opening up a massive new front. The attack from israel would be crushing, even though hezbollah is much better equipped than hamas. They would take a severe blow from israel. They dont want to do that right now. If this really was to widen, iran was only going to get involved in this conflict what it has exhausted all the power of all their proxies in the region. I think we are still far from matt. When youre talking about an attack on the northern part of israel, you mentioned haifa coming out of the map on e top of your head. It is also a strip of land. Then there is a strip of land that is israel. Haifa is more to the north. It is above tel aviv and closer to the border. It is not on this map, unfortunately. Also to the border of lebanon. Ali arouzi, thank you very much. David, you are still with us but let us talk about this. Iran will do as much as i can without Instigating A further regional war. That sounds dangerous. How do you know when that will happen . It is true. This is all irans fingerprints. They have been Training Hamas for decades. They have been Training Hezbollah for decades. Who carry out the hostagetaking . Can be better practice iran taking the diplomats in 1979 and the whole series of americans into lebanon after that. It is an extra in a moment. One argument is that this shows it is the middle east that the failure of some kind of solution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict has come back. I dont know what the solution is now. Can there be a solution that does not include a palestinian state . I dont know. I cannot include hamas, that is clear. Understandably, that is impossible. Can the palestinians gain legitimacy in gaza and government somehow . There is a lot of talk of this longterm question, what is the answer . I think that is what Antony Blinken is trying to do there is going to be an operation against hamas that will be taken out of power in gaza. What is the longterm solution and what plan does United States and israel have for vacuum or what are they talking about in private that they want tell us in public, for understandable reasons given let me talk about what Aaron David Miller mentioned, the palestinians who are in gaza and visiting loved ones could be considered hostages. That is a possibility. They could be, yes. Egypt is not letting gazans leave because they feel this is helping israel gain more territory. John kirby now joins us from the white house. National security courtney for strategic communications. Thanks for being here. The white house is not confirming the release of hostages. Why not . We dont have independent verification it has happened. We hope it is true. But we cannot independently verify that. We are looking into this hard. What are you expecting in regard to the other american hostages and the hostages in general . Can you tell us about negotiations and whether there is an expectation that we will that they will be released at some point . We are working hard trying to get them release, particularly american citizens we know are getting held hostage. There is active medication going on, as you and i speak. I dont want to get into too much detail, lest i Say Something that makes it harder for us to achieve their release. We are working on this hard. We are mindful, of course, that there are dozens more from other countries including israel that hamas is holding. That was part of the discussion that President Biden had with netanyahu when we are in tel aviv. He met with some of the Family Members of those being held hostage and committed the u. S. Will work in conjunction with israel to do what we could to get them out. What could you tell us about the status of The Americans who were in gaza, the american palestinians visiting family and we have not been able to get out . We are working that hard too. I wish i could tell you such and such a time that could get open. What is the holdup . There are Regional Security concerns. We have ambassador satterfield, special envoy, the whole job is to get humanitarian assistance in and see if he can get americans out. He is on the ground as we speak. We hope to have resolution soon so we can get the folks safe passage out there. They say they dont like the American Government is prioritizing them. They see the planes out of israel and the ships out of israel to get Israeli Americans out. They dont feel the same about their situation. I understand the fear and anxiety that they are having right now. I cannot say i blame them as many sit down there at the Rossa Crossing Waiting for the gate to open up. We understand what theyre going through. That is why we are working at heart. I can assure them and all your viewers that this is top priority for the administration. It is complicated and tough. It requires intense diplomacy and that is exactly what we are engaged in. Admiral john kirby, thank you for joining us. I know we only have a couple minutes i hope you allow us to ask you to stick around for a few seconds. Im going to sign up Nicolle Wallace and pick things up right now. Hi, their everyone. It is 11 00 p. M. And israel and gaza. We have a Major Development in the ongoing and unprecedented Hostage Situation there. Source is