ukraine and russia, israel and hamas threatening to spill over into wider conflicts, american leaders on the global stage critical, but we are still facing our own crisis of democracy right here at home one that is easy to overlook when the news of the world's war. the legal peril facing the twice impeached multiple indicted former president seem to increase in recent days, with the guilty pleas of two high-level codefendants in the election interference case out of fulton county, georgia. but the peril for our own system of governance is increasing too as donald trump's own behavior continues to push dangerous lies and the republican party continues to be largely beholden to him. in this moment of global crises, americans and the world are looking to american leaders for guidance. but instead of inspiring confidence, our congress is more dysfunctional than it has been in more than 150 years, since the civil war. and that is because donald trump has broken the republican party and is now trying to run the u.s. house by proxy. house republicans have not managed in 19 days since ousting their own speaker without a plan for what to do next, to elect a replacement to lead the body. on friday, the house republican conference voted by secret ballot to drop the election denier and trump accolade jim jordan as their nominee for speaker, after jordan failed on his third floor vote when he set the record for the fewest votes received by majority party nominee for speaker ever. by the way, the last record was held by him. and while we can until at the bit about that, now that georgia is out through the speakership, we should also consider that we are just a bit away -- overturn the 2020 election. someone who allegedly urged the vice president pence to throw out electoral votes. we really almost had that person as the speaker of the house. second in line to the presidency. it's a very, very bad place to be in as a democracy and the threat is not nearly over. republican members received threatening messages for not voting for trump's preferred candidate for house speaker. and as the party scrambled to find someone, anyone else for the job, eight of the ten republicans floated for the role so far are election deniers themselves. trump was fine this week and threatened with jail time by the judge in a civil fraud trial for trashing the judge's own clerk on social media after being warned not to. social media attacks, provocative messages, strong arm tactics are the hallmark of trumpism. we've talked before on the show, many times, about the tactic of political martyr them, about how it serves trump to frame himself as an embattled victim fighting on behalf of his following. just this, week he posted on social media site truth social, and i don't normally show pictures of this, but this one is worth it, this bizarre illustration which is in the style of a courtroom sketch, which appears to show him in court alongside, and i do hope you are sitting down for this -- alongside none other than jesus christ himself! as he literally invokes jesus in an effort to jam up support. it's clear that trump and trumpism continue to propose a mounting threat to this country. joining me now is jennifer rubin, the opinion writer for the washington post. she is also an msnbc political analyst. and david graham, a staff writer for the atlantic. good morning to both of you. i'm starting with this one, i don't know how much you follow truth social. but that was, jennifer rubin, even in the world of trump, some weird stuff. donald trump sitting next to jesus christ in a courtroom. >> well, this is part of the course, as you said. this is what donald trump does. he becomes a martyr. even though he's the one who is provoking violence, even though he is the one who is making threats, even if he's the one endangering the democracy, he brings his troops to his side by playing the, i am the only one who is standing between them -- whoever them is -- and his followers, making himself a martyr, making himself in the role of the voice of the people. this is straight from the fascist playbook. this is straight from right-wing authoritarians down to the ages, and frankly, around the world. and it is a very, very dangerous thing when you take on the role of messiah, then you are no longer engaged in democracy or engaged in a cult, a very dangerous cult. >> david, how do you see this playing out because while the rest of the world looks at this and says this is weird what the republican conference is doing, and how beholden they are to trump, and how they can't manage to agree on a speaker, and the minute they get into a private, you know, a secret ballot, the truth seems to come out. there are a whole bunch of people who say that if the republicans give up their maga -ism, their trumpism, that the air will all come out of the balloon. and they are really trying to continue this election denial radical extreme stuff. how do you see this playing out in the next few days because there is still no speaker in the house and we are less than a month away from a government shutdown? >> yeah, i mean part of the problem as we talk about, republican conference, we've seen there is functionally no republican congress. you've got four, five, or six different groups in their. none of them is large enough to command a majority. none of them can agree that they have very personal problems, political disagreements. so, it's hard to see how they're gonna come together and reach 217 in order to act speaker. i see nothing but chaos for this foreseeable future. >> jennifer, it was, i'm trying to think of who it was yesterday who said -- i had charlie dent on. and he was making the point that compromise, agreeing with an outcome is what democracy democracy actually is. and it used to be that the republicans would vote for somebody in private, and whoever got the most votes, everybody would then support that person and house. when your house is divided as closely as this one is, that's kind of how it has to work. but there is no leadership. there is no want to tell them that. there's no want to have a conversation. it's people like us to reflect on it, but no one is actually doing it. >> and the fact that all of the incentive, all of the motivations on the other side is becoming chaos. it is soliciting donald trump, and whenever someone seems to be gaining up momentum for a day or so, it seems to have been tom emmer, donald trump comes to the scene, don't vote for him, don't vote for him. so, because they have given up real politics, which is the art of compromise, the art of solving problems in favor of performative politics for the right-wing media. when it comes to actually needing to do something, like picking a leader, they are incapable of doing it. would break off and probably deal with the democrats, we don't live in that world. and i don't see any group of people. and they are not moderates. they are other conservatives with the spine to say, enough, we have to pick a leader. we gotta govern, and we gotta move forward. i just don't see that happening in the near term. >> david, there are few wild options out there. first of all, tom emmer, it's not a wild option. he's got some strange beliefs. he calls climate change al gore porn. but the bottom line is he is well regarded and he's not an election denier. there is the idea that if five republicans vote present and all democrats vote for hakeem jeffries, hakeem jeffries could be speaker. i'm not sure if that's gonna work, but certainly all options are on the table right now. at some point, we have not been in the situation since, i don't know, since literally the civil war where it took them 133 votes to get a speaker. what are you hearing as to what is most likely the road forward is? it's somebody saying, hey, guys, we're gonna be 20 days into this tomorrow, this has to come to an end. >> there are no folks to say that. the closest that the republicans had somebody who can unify the caucus of kevin mccarthy. we saw how that work. kevin mccarthy handed the gun to the rebels and then shot on them with it. so, you know, his leadership did not work either. and i don't think there's anyone who commands that. it's interesting, as jennifer said, to see the emmer bubble sort of inflate, and then trump go after it. and as long as he's going after this, getting over to the very small number of people, you would have to get to, you know, to allow emmer through, or to form some sort of coalition power sharing, it's really hard to imagine. we've seen some of the republicans are willing to thumb their nose of trump a little bit, they're willing to not vote for jordan, either in private or in public. but that's different from sort of -- in the open way in mass that we would need for republicans to elect a speaker. >> this is interesting. this private versus public thing is very telling because, jennifer, you and i were talking about this on friday night, but ken buck has received death threats and his landlord who doesn't agree with his political positions is now evicting him, the landlord for his constituency office. i mean, this is just weird stuff in america. don bacon has received threats. he says his wife is now sleeping next to a loaded gun. representative mariannette miller-meeks from iowa has received credible death threats. and the interesting thing about all three of, them all sort of policy oriented people who you could agree or disagree with him, but you could have discussion on. don bacon is a regular on our show. in the house of republican conference, when they were allowed to vote by secret ballot, jim jordan's support collapsed. he got far less than half of the conference. what does this tell us about where things are with the republican conference right now? >> that's right. over 100 people voted against him, but only 25 had the nerve to do so publicly. and that tells me that fascism is really infecting the republican party, the threat of violence, the use of violence instrumentally to get your way rather than through persuasion, argumentation, through a compromise, that's a telltale sign of a fascist regime. and it has been the tactic of the maga republicans to use this against other people outside the party, the press, democrats, members of the court. now, they are using it against each other, and they are simply outraged that this is going on. well, that threats were being made against fbi fbi, where were they when trump was making threats to judges and court personnel? so, i think what goes around comes around. but on a more serious and kind of historical perspective, this is not the behavior of people who are small democrats. this is something altogether inappropriate. and there is no one in the republican party right now who hold office at least, who is willing to say this is utterly unacceptable. we cannot behave this way. and instead they either go along or they do this private public game, where they there are apparently 75 or so who voted in private. but in public, they were willing to put their name on jordan's flight. >> david, this doesn't affect donald trump's legal peril, which seems to have increased this week, as we mentioned, because of a couple of his codefendants have decided to plead guilty. but it is donald trump's power play at the moment, right? because it is the place where he can show that he's got power and sway. he is still way ahead in the republican primary vote, whatever happens in court happens in court. but, why is this so important for donald trump, in fact, a couple of republicans, or if you are republicans floated the idea for donald trump as speaker, or a temporary speaker of the house, but why is the republican power play in congress so important for donald trump? >> this is one place, i mean, i think despite all of the things that you are talking about here, and the way that the republicans are not getting that from trump, it's still one of the larger rebellions against him that we've seen from the party. in fact, somebody willing to vote against jim jordan's supporting that candidate. in fact someone we will have spoken out and are not willing to just take this -- i think it's a real threat. we haven't seen republicans willing to break from him and that we publicly in any setting since 2017 or 2018 maybe. and so, he really needs the push on this. he needs to exert his power. and he wants to try to keep those people in line. he had problems with congress of course when he was president. they wouldn't fall in line and gradually they did. but i think he doesn't want to lose that sort of grip he has right now. >> thanks to both of you this morning. jennifer reuben, opinion writer at the washington post and the author of resistance, how women save democracy from donald trump. and david graham is a staff writer at the atlantic. still ahead -- and with a family's remain in limbo waiting to learn the fate of their loved ones being held hostage and gaza. i would speak with the former director of hostage recovery for the united states government. plus, israel is now carrying out an airstrike on the west bank, as the world watches to see if the war between israel and hamas spreads into a broader conflict. we will have the developments next where iran-backed hezbollah's trading attacks with israel. then, we discussed the most pressing question of all, what is the way forward for israel and palestine? this is velshi on msnbc. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ the long-lasting scent of gain flings made it smell like dave was in his happy place... ...the massage chair at the mall. but...he wasn't. gain flings with oxi boost and febreze. choosing a treatment for your chronic migraine - 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more - can be overwhelming. so, ask your doctor about botox®. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start. it's the #1 prescribed branded chronic 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( ♪♪ ) although a long way ground invasion hanot yet started, an aerial wars raging above the middle east. deadly israeli airstrikes have put to international airports in syria out of commission this morning, according to the syrian defense ministry, in an apparent attempt to prevent arms shipments from militant groups that support, including hezbollah. syria, and russia, basically controlling syria. the israeli military also announced overnight that it launched an aerial strike on an underground compound at a mosque in the occupied west bank that it believe contained a terror cell. and as air strikes persist, a top official with hezbollah has threatened that israel will pay a price if it initiates a grnd offensive in the gaza strip, announcing yesterday that his militant group based in lebanon's already, quote, in the heart of the battle, and quote. but not too reported this morning telling soldiers along the northern border of israel, quote, if hezbollah decides to enter the war, it will miss the second lebanon war. that would be its biggest mistake ever. we will cripple it with a force it cannot even imagine, and quote. joining me now from lebanon is someone who knows a great deal about all of, this is nbc news foreign correspondent, my friend, matt bradley. matt, there is a lot that i want to unpack here with you. we are seeing what could be escalating into a conflict effect being the whole region. there are two things that are happening. one is where you are in lebanon, the other, is when i heard the news of the airstrikes in the west bank, i asked my producers, i have not heard of air strikes in the west bank in a long time. and she said, not since 2006. so we have a one front war in the south, and we have two potential more fronts. >> yeah. we have our front right here. we have, right in the border behind me between israel and lebanon, and that's been heating up. we now have 24 hezbollah fighters have been killed so r in the past two weeks, five of them, just in th past day. so clearly, we are seeing this go from a summer into a boil, and we're looking like it could breeze up further. but the really interesting thing about all this, is that even as we are seeing a rapid increase in violence, the temple of all of this is heating up. we are still seeing both sides showing restraint. and that's because, on some level, there are rules of engagement, informal ones, that govern the way hezbollah fights with israel and israel fights back with hezbollah. and so far, both sides seem to be dancing, according to this choreography, that was set all the way back in 2006, when israel launched a war into lebanon fighting against hezbollah, and that was a really crippling, a devastating war. one that neither side wants to repeat. but, as you mentioned, this really goes beyond what is happened here at the border, what is happening in the west bank. it envelops the entire region. and that's why we are hearing so much concern out of washington, anthony blinken has been expressing his concern. and i actually spoke with and i'm on, here in southern lebanon. he is not affiliated with hezbollah, but he's in a very good position, he's very popular in a good position to give us the temperature of the feeling of what is going on here. here's what he had to say. >> do you think that israel is afraid of hezbollah and the power of the access of resistance? >> absolutely, they say that if hezbollah enters, it will be armageddon for israel. it knows that the entrance of hezbollah will change the balance and the rules of engagement entirely. >> so, you heard my reference there to the axis of resistance. that is not necessarily a household term in the u.s., but here, in the middle east, especially in hezbollah territory, that is referring to a loose confederation, or sort of a coalition of different forces, militant groups like hezbollah here in southern lebanon. and hamas, and the gaza strip, as well as iran, syria's bashar al-assad. the hutu rebels in yemen, all of whom are against israel against sunni powers like saudi arabia. and somewhat either totally controlled, or some how benefiting from iran. so, yes. iran has its friends in the region, and it is concerning the last two weeks trying to shore up those alliances in preparation for a broader war. ali? >> i'm gonna check in with you very shortly again, thanks, matt, as always. nbc's matt bradley for us in lebanon. up, next i'll be joined right here on set by the palestinian deputy ambassador to the end nations. you're watching velshi. end nations. you're watching velshi you're watching velshi a digital money coach in the chase mobile® app. use it to set and track your goals, big and small... and see how changes you make today... could help put them within reach. from your first big move to retiring poolside - and the other goals along the way. wealth plan can help get you there. ♪ j.p. morgan wealth management. my little family is me, aria, and jade. just the three of us girls. i never thought twice about feeding her kibble. but about two years ago, i realized she was overweight. she was always out of breath. that's when i decided to introduce the farmer's dog to her diet. it's just so fresh that she literally gets bubbles in her mouth. now she's a lot more active, she's able to join us on our adventures. and we're all able to do things as a family. ♪ get started at betterforthem.com >> the israel-hamas war has clean the lives of more than 4000 palestinians at least 1400 israelis, leaving tens of thousands wounded. a second convoy of 17 trucks bringing aid to gaza has now entered the rafah. crossing these are fuel trucks, this is not part of the convoy. these are fuel trucks that are starting to get clarity on, but we believe are being held up at the border. but a second convoy after yesterday's 20 trucks is waiting to be processed to enter gaza. this of course comes after another small eight convoy was permitted to end through the gaza strip from egypt yesterday, and in these convoys are critical medical and food supplies, but the u.n. warns that this limited aid shipment is nowhere near enough to address the dire needs of the population, in a typical day, you might get 500 trucks, or something like that. that is when we are not at war. the u.n. says there is no fuel in the first shipment of aid, the u.n. expects to run out of fuel in three days. so we are trying to get clarity on what those fuel trucks arm where they're headed. it is also mounting concern over a planned israeli ground invasion of gaza, in an evacuation order that was issued for all, especially those called the wadi gaza, as it's called in arabic. this has created a catastrophic humanitarian crisis. according to the united nations, more than 1.4 million individuals have been displaced in gaza. that means they're not in their homes. that means that they could have left voluntarily, it means their homes could've been destroyed, but that is 60% of the entire gaza strip population. nbc news has learned that ra dropped a new round of evacuation leaflets over cause a city. i am going to go over this with you in a second. these are the leaflets from saturday morning. we've obtained, and if nbc news producer in gaza has read it, it is in arabic. now, to verify the translation, we've had two nbc staffers who speak arabic independently translate this leaflet. the first translation from arabic to english reads, quote, you, our presence north of the gaza valley puts your life in danger. to anybody who chooses not to evacuate from the northern strip to the south of gaza valley, it is possible they will be considered as a partner to a terrorist organization. that is one translation. a second staffer on my team has translated it as, quote, your presence in the northern gaza valley puts your life in danger. everyone who chooses not to evacuate from the north of gaza to the south may be identified as an accomplice to a terrorist organization. so as is always the case with a language that comes from a different linguistic structure, the wording is slightly different in the interpretations. but they both mean exactly the same thing. moved to the south will be found to be an accomplice and in danger, your lives are in danger. the crucial words on this thing, which no one has translated differently, are the two words, terrorist organization. it is important to note that international law prohibits the targeting of civilians who choose to remain in their homes. communal punishment of non-combatants remainsa war crime. the israeli defense courses now claims, the transition from arabic that is nospread across platfor is imprecise. to clarify, the idf has no intention of csidering those who have yet to evacuate as a member of a terrorist group. the idf states, once again, for the safety of gazan civilians that they should evacuate to the south of gaza. all those who remain are in danger to themselves it due to the hamas terrorist activities within civilian areas, and quote. within>> that is not what the lt says. so if you are in gaza and you are not watching msnbc right now, what you've got is a warning that you will be considered a terrorist. remember the terrorist organization, complicit with a terrorist organization if you don't leave. the term waddy, as i said, means gaza valley. roughly the middle of the gaza strip. again, nbc news stands by its translation of the leaflet. the idf has not offered any explanation to us as to why or how there is a discrepancy between what they printed in arabic, and how that actually translates. with us to discuss the developments and the road ahead, i am joined by ambassador -- he is a top palestinian diplomat with the title of deputy permit observer of the state of palestine at the united nations. ambassador, thanks for being here. you speak arabic, you are not a transit or by profession, so you can't verify this. but did you basically follow what i was saying and what do you make of it? >> yes. it is consistent with the narrative that you have to evacuate or your death is something acceptable. international says that civilians are protected wherever they are. you cannot use the war as cover for false displacement of people. >> under any circumstance? why can people say, they voted for hamas, first of all, that's interesting discussion, because that was in 2006. but even if you voted for somebody last year, you cannot be forced from your home because of their activities. >> first, not everybody voted for hamas. and people voted for netanyahu and for the people now killing palestinians, does that justify the killing of israelis? that kind of absurd justified is not, it is changing the laws of war. if you can go to the south you are, bomb in the south. people have nowhere to go, shelters and hospitals cannot evacuate. it is a death sentence, says the u.n., for many people to evacuate. and again, we have a history of forcible displacement. we are suspicious of the intention of israel by this forcible's placement. so the u.n. is clear. they should receive humanitarian aid, wherever they are, civilians, and they should be protected wherever they are. this is unlawful. and this is targeting of civilians and indiscriminate attacks. >> we are watching what is going on in the gaza border right now. but the aid convoy, the 20 trucks that went, in the 17 that are ready to go in and whatever those fuel trucks are. what is erupted on this? the update is at the 17 trucks in today's convoy have passed through the egyptian part of the checkpoint, but the checkpoints are complicated, because you go through into a no-man's-land. then it all gets checked again before it goes into gaza. >> yeah, i don't emphasize, i don't know exactly about this. but you are speaking of a droplet. while needs are increasing exponentially, israel is still refusing for a few to enter. without, fuel no dissemination plants, no hospitals, no drinkable water, people are dying, including 120 newborn babies on incubators. and fuel is, we are on 20, for 48 hours away from a major humanitarian catastrophe. and again, you know, we are seeing 1 million displaced. that is 170 million americans. and that is the equivalent of 600,000 americans. we are seeing 14,000 entered. just the sheer scale of a small territory that is under bombardments, of people who are fleeing for their lives with nowhere to go, and your length 20 trucks with intervention of this, it is just amazing. >> amazing, expand that to me, because we've seen anthony blinken in seven major capitals explain a few of them, we've seen lloyd austin going there, we know that austin is on the phone with the israelis defense secretary, defense minister, every day. and we see joe biden talking about both humanitarian aid, and asking israel not to try to avoid humanitarian catastrophe. the world's pressure is coming to bear, why is it not having an effect? >> because there's a long list of not listening to people who still live money. and again, if you get billions of dollars to israel, and you cannot even convince them to give humanitarian aid, i'm convinced this to come in. by the way, they should ask for the stopping of the bombings, it is looking to see this. it is outrageous not have done so so far. a bill even for asking, but could they leave this here? what measure they're going to take and they were against it. everything about israel does, there is no consequences. >> let's go back to that first, could you say colonizing for our viewers, and when you talk about the settlements, right? the extension of the settlements. this is one of the top issues for palestinians. the facts on the grounds continue to change, including in the west bank. the new cellmate, the way it works is a palestinian lives there, they are evicted from their property because they are told it is for military importance, archaeological importance, or whatever the case may be. and suddenly, there's not really settlement that comes in. america says, the world says those are not illegal. america generally speaking, objects to them. and the trump administration, they did not a house. but most administrations go to them. but the point, is they don't stop. >> now, 700,000 israeli -- in the west bank, and the numbers increasing. we have 80 palestinians killed in last ten days, including six on the hands of settlers, themselves, keeping westerns and shooting them. and we have several committees displaced in the last ten days, taking over the threat literally. so again, nobody wants to speak of the occupation, it's also being sensitive about the situation. but honestly, if you don't resolve the situation, let's talk about that. how do you address the deep and long history and context of the situation in the wake of what happened on october 7th? because, what it caused people to do is say, this is barbaric. this is monstrous. this is one of the worst thing that's ever happened. now is not the moment to discuss that context. you have been trying to have that context brought into the broader media discourse for a long time. and it doesn't, generally take. >> i'm talking to you while over 4000 palestinians have been killed. including 1700 children. we could have called for vengeance, we could've set 75 years of disposition and displacement. allow us to kill people. and we're saying, no. because of that history, need to solve the conflict. we need the end of the occupation, we need two states. israel is there. we need palestine to be that. we need our people to be free. we need to live in dignity. and, honestly, the fact that we need to argue that is horrific. it is insulting. it is humiliating. people consider freedom as something even for granted, palestinians never had a day of freedom and our lives. so, we need to be courageous in moments like these, say, no you cannot kill civilians. that will help no one. we've given you the weapons and the money for all of these years. israel, that does not make you more safe. you are making peace with countries who are not at war with, and wore to the people in country need to make peace with. we cannot allow you to do that. because you are ally, because you have our support, because we are involved with you, in a perception for many people who are complicit of whatever you are doing next, you have to change that course, and i know it's hard to say it now, but it's hard to say it now while our people are being killed by the government of them, by the government of islam. and yet, because we are responsible to save our palestinian peoples lives, myself in, us if it's not by humanity, we need to say peace is the only way forward. >> ambassador, thank you for your time, we appreciate it. ambassador majed bamya at the united nations. coming, up will be joined by the person who, up until last month, was in charge of planning hostage rescues for united states government. he will breakdown how this government delicate operation works, you're watching velshi. >>. ,,,. . . >>. . . . . . >>. . . . take a moment to pause and ask, why did you get vaccinated against pneumococcal pneumonia? i help others. but i need to help protect myself. honestly? i couldn't afford to get sick. i want to be there for this one. i can't if i'm sick. pneumococcal pneumonia is a potentially serious bacterial lung disease. you may be at risk if you're 19 to 64 with certain chronic conditions. or if you're 65 or older. don't pause a moment longer. ask your doctor or pharmacist about getting vaccinated against pneumococcal pneumonia today. why didn't we do this last year? before you were preventing migraine with qulipta®? remember the pain? cancelled plans? the worry? that was then. and look at me now. you'll never truly forget migraine. but qulipta® reduces attacks, making zero-migraine days possible. it's the only pill of its kind that blocks cgrp - and is approved to prevent migraine of any frequency. to help give you that forget-you-get migraine 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the families of hundreds of hostages taken by hamas, and whose fates remain unknown. the public pleas from those families demanding the release of innocent civilians held captive in gaza have captured the world's attention. kidnapped poachers featuring photos information about those abducted have been printed in several different languages and plastered across public places around the globe, and during its prime time oval office address on thursday, president biden emphasized that bringing back those hostages who are american citizens is of the utmost importance to his administration. >> i told families of americans being held captive by hamas, we are pursuing every avenue to bring their loved ones home. as president, there is no higher priority for me than the safety of americans held hostage. >> this weekend, two of those american hostages are making their way back home to the night states, on friday, hamas released and her daughter, natalie. both women are residents of chicago and were visiting family new york boots near the gaza border when they were kidnapped by hamas to weeks ago. according to the israeli government, at least 210 people are being held hostage in gaza. hamas claims it is holding as many as 250 people, and also claims that 22 have died as a result of israeli airstrikes across the region in recent days. now those numbers and claims are impossible to independently verify, since gaza is largely closed off to the outside world, including too many news organizations. getting the hostages released will involve a lot of international coordination, especially since a number of the hostages are citizens of countries in the united states and canada, argentina, france, thailand, the whole operation is fraught with risk. gaza is a war zone with israel continuing to bombard the enclave with airstrikes. and preparing to launch a ground offensive so up next, i am talking to somebody who knows the specific challenges of hostage rescue. christopher o'leary is now the senior vice president of global operations for this to. fawn grove to last month, he was the director of hostage recovery for united states government. he's got extensive experience in managing costs to asians, and strategizing the release of hostages by force or by negotiation. he joins me after a break. ion. he joins me after a break. r financial reports. conquer 2000-word essays. conquer a 6 course menu. rule over what you write with the smooth writing, longest lasting gel ink pen in america. do you g2? ah mornings! cough? congestion? i'm feeling better. all in one and done with new mucinex kickstart. headache? better now. new mucinex kickstart gives all-in-one and done relief with a morning jolt of instant cooling sensation. it's comeback season. with the freestyle libre 2 system know your glucose level and where it's headed without fingersticks. manage your diabetes with more confidence and lower your a1c. it's covered by medicare for those who qualify. ask your doctor 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it's happening. to the next level? it is with comcast business. powering all your devices with gig-speed wifi. and you get fast downloads and uploads. pick it up! pick it up! oh we got this! because it's powered by the next generation 10g network. more speed for your business? it's not just possible. it's happening. get started for $59.99 a month for 12 months. plus, ask how to get an $800 prepaid card with a qualifying internet bundle. joining me now is christopher comcast business, powering possibilities. o'leary. he is a senior vice president of global affairs for the sudan group. but until last, month he was the director of hostage recovery for the united states government. he's got decades of experience working counterterrorism, as well as an hostage rescue and recovery efforts. which makes him the greatest and perfect person to talk to all. this good person -- good to see one person again, thank you for talking with us. whatever is going on there's clearly something going on, because we had two hostages released, and we had the government of qatar involved, which is fairly typical when we deal with hostage releases. so there is some conversation going on somewhere. but, in your old job, until a month ago, there would also be a different, a parallel track in the case that everything went wrong, and you need to go in the hot to get these hostages. you, mean the american government, or troops, or israelis, or whomever. tell me about how these parallel tracks work? >> so, as soon as an american is taken, it triggers the response from the u.s. government. it is a whole of government response. so to special operations forces, intelligent professionals, fbi agents, intelligence, analysts, negotiators. all of which immediately deploy. and in this case, it is unique. because it -- the hostages were taken in israel, and brought back in the gaza. so we are doing a partnership with the israelis. but that is not new. we have, just a year ago, we conducted an exercise to work with the israelis, to be able to respond collectively to an incident. actually, more recently, we did one in doha with the qataris back in mid july. and the ideas to be able to respond in a synchronized manner to a complex hostage incident. when there are citizens for multiple nations taken. because this is a global community problem, it is not just an american or israeli problem. we have to respond collectively. >> is it relevant to the people like you who would be planning how to go in and get those hostages, that there is a separate process going on, or maybe it is not separate but a coordinated process for negotiation, but obviously the best outcome is a negotiated release? >> so, in my old role, and what i would assume is going on right now, it is standard operating procedure. you are looking for any opportunity. this is a challenging type of environment. there is not a reference second point in the modern era who is even close. it is in that 27, 45, and then this event, they pay on comparison to this. this is a denser environment, out of hundreds of miles of improved subterranean tunnels, extensive rubble down. and a sympathetic population doesn't mean that members of hamas is the ambassador, was just talking about. but they're also not necessarily going to aid in the rescue of the hostages. so it is very difficult, and very difficult to collect intelligence. you don't have personal ground, it is difficult to put people around to do strategic reconnaissance. that is not to say that it is not all being worked. because the hostage enterprise for both the united states and from our close foreign partners, israel being one of them, they are problem solvers. they are building solutions with the information that they have from the day that this happened, they are building in an extremist hostage response, if things start going south really quickly, they were moving on to the information that they have. but the more mature approach right now, because this is a very challenging hostage rescue, his calculation is to move towards negotiated release. that's where i bring in a great legitimate partner like the qataris is the right move. >> i had the son of a woman, he believes is a hostage. he had him say to me, and we've seen a number of families of hostages say to the israeli government, just slow your roll of talking about this run until we get our hostages out. you can do what you will with hamas after that. but tell me about that calculus. because again, there's not a lot of examples about this in history. the israelis keep telling us every day they're ready, they're ready for the grand invasion, it could happen any moment. and the families are, thank you to stop saying that. >> if i have loved one take, and i would probably be asking for the same thing. the problem is is that they had a dilemma for the israeli government, and for the 30 other partner nations that have passed just taken. israel was the recipient of horrific terrorist attack. by a barbaric terrorist organization, and that's what hamas is, that's what pages. and you cannot pay to any other way. if you look back at hamas, who has quite a bit of experience taking hostages, they held one israeli soldier for five years and then release of 1000-plus palestinian prisoners. they will use this to delay the invasion of gaza for as long as they can. they will use it as a calculated tactic, as part of their terrorist approach. and listen. foundationally, the definition of terrorism is a calculated use of violence to intimidate and terrorize a populace, and also an audience beyond its immediate victims. they've demonstrated that very effectively and propensity to continue to do it. >> these two hostages who have been released, i imagine they are being debriefed. what is it that people want to know, meaning people like you? the hostage negotiators, the israeli government, the american government. what are they asking them first? >> i'll tell you this the first thing, first and foremost to, make sure that their health and welfare are looked after. so there will be a team of medical and psychological professionals that are there and victims service specialists to ensure that they are not only healthy, but that they can return home whole psychologically. but there will also be intelligence professionals from the united states and from the international community that will look for any detail that can illuminate who the capture network is, to identify what location they might've been held that, or where they may have been moved from or to. do those things correlate with traditional bed down locations from knowing hamas members, or what we call, and ais, known areas of interest. so we can focus additional collection on that. >> i mean, hamas is gotten no, by letting two hostages go, they are going to get a lot of questions. so they are when we get blindfolded we don't know how they were kept. there's gotta be usable information that can be extracted. there is usable information, as challenging as this is, the u.s. intelligence is there countering forces are gifted at this. the united states has been exceptionally roll hurst effect about hunting people for the last 22 years. since 9/11. all of that experience, all of our technology brings us to a point where we are very good at this. we will partner with the israelis to do all types of intelligence. some of its commercial available information, and then you have the more high-end stuff, which will really dig deep. but there is no peaceful information that is not being looked at, and put into the targeting cycle. so we can develop some options for recovery. and not to make the invasion of gaza look like it's going to be anything but a horrific, but as soon as israel gets in, that gives targeting operations to start taking hamas members, start hitting locations where there will be