As an example that the idf bomb deliberately, a hospital and killed 700 people. The longer that goes on, the more israel will be in peril for for their future, so, again, we should expect nothing else from hamas. Its a terrorist organization. Its dedicated to the destruction of israel and theyre going about it in a strategic matter. Does history tell us whether they care if Congress Approves aid to israel and that america stands behind, you know the movements that have been made by the u. S. Military that is in the region, that they stand behind israel . I think theres no question that were going to provide aid to israel. Massive financial resources. Were backing them up with a significant deterrent military forces. None of this will be contingent upon whether netanyahu does or does not conduct a land operation. Thats clearly got to be an israeli decision based on their own fundamental security assessment. General, its always good to have you on the program, we thank you, general Barry Mccaffrey for coming on the program. I want to go back to nbcs Kelly Cobiella, bring us up to date again. Reset, what do we know . So three sources are telling nbc news that two american hostages have, in fact, been released by hamas. We dont know much more than that. Hamas has released a statement claiming that theyve released a mother and daughter. Were trying to confirm that as well as find out where these two hostages are. Remember, this gaza strip is not a large place, but when you talk about finding two people and bringing them out, its very large. Its a territory about the size of the city of philadelphia. Its about 25 miles long. We dont know these two hostages were held. We dont kw if they were in the northern part of the gaza strip this has been absolutely pommelled by israeli air strikes over the past 14 days or in the south. The only way for civilians, anyway, to get out or the only hope for civilians to get out is through the Southern Crossing through into egypt, and that crossing, the Rafah Crossing has been closed now, you know, since the war began with obvious diplomatic efforts over the past week or so to get it reopened. Again, if these hostages have, in fact, been released which is what our sources are saying, where are they, are they still in gaza . Are they making their way down to the Rafah Crossing. We know there are aid workers in gaza. United nations workers in gaza. Are they with an aid group. Have they been turned over to, for example, the red cross. All of these questions have yet to be answered. Chris, theres an awful lot of reporting in israeli media right now about this. A lot of it we cant substantiate right now. But these are questions that we continue to ask and were right to get some answers. Weve got calls into the red cross and others trying to find out exactly where this mother and daughter are and when they will be released from the gaza strip, chris. Kelly cobiella, thank you. I know we will come back to you in tel aviv as we learn more. Joining us now is former ndc bureau chief, Martin Fletcher, you and i worked together for years. You know this region, and you know the governments extremely well. You just revealed last night, talking to our Stephanie Ruhle, were all very sorry to hear that two of your wifes Family Members are among the hostages. What if anything do you know about this new information that were learning, martin . Well, we are hoping that the two women released are, in fact, my relatives. In fact, israel tv channel 11 has just given the names, and they are judith and natalie, who are the members of my family who were kidnapped. If this is true, its wonderful news for our family, but of course thats one family of many, and were hoping of course this will just be the beginning of a wider release, but we dont know that yet, certainly its too early for us to say. The last i heard from my relatives, they had not been told officially who was released, but we do know that the people released were american, they were a mother and daughter, and as far as we know, my family, were the only American Mother and daughter being held hostage. Were praying, hopefully but worried about everyone else. Would it be your expectation, one way or the other, your family would be informed exactly whats going on here . Do you have to wait for the state Department Briefing . Whats your expectation, martin . I dont think it has anything to do with the state Department Briefing but probably, you know, the fact theyve been released, again, i keep saying if its true, but apparently it is true, doesnt mean theyre now safe and free and in the hands of israel. They may be on a road in gaza on their way somewhere. Theyve probably been taken across the border into egypt, as a matter of fact. I doow tt, but across the border in the south. So its maybe too early to actually totally commit. Its surprising to me, i must say, they wouldnt have been in touch with the family. They may have been already in touch with the family, and i i havent heard that yet. Its possible im in touch with them. Theyve got more important things on their mind. Based on your experience in the region, martin, what would be going on behind the scenes, if, indeed, this happened or is in the process of happening, that hamas is turning over to americans . Theyre not turning them over for nothing. Presumably theres been some kind of a deal, and hopefully the beginning of a wider deal. There was talk earlier about the possible early Prisoner Exchange of women and children. That kind of disappeared from the public discourse, but maybe because there was a secret to whats going on in the background. Israel holds 30 Women Security prisoners in its jail and about 120, i believe, it is, minors, young people. So theres about 30 women that israel holdings, about 120 minors, and theyre available, if you like, to be swapped for prisoners, so maybe releasing these two american women is the beginning of a wider Prisoner Swap. We just have to wait and see and hope. Tell us a little bit of the background, if you will. My recollection from listening to your interview last night with Stephanie Ruhle is that natalie and judith were visiting for a Family Members birthday, that is right, and then what happened . What do we know . They were visiting their grandmother. It was her 85th birthday, in the kibbutz, one attacked immediately, and one of the kibbutz seen because it was the furthest away from the center of the country. They took the longest to get help, so they were under attack for six, seven, eight hours before anybody with a gun from the israeli side came to help. So many people were massacred in that village, well over a hundred. And many more were taken hostage into gaza. And i should emphasize one thing, although hopefully this is the end of the drama, close to the end of the drama for natalie and judith, my cousin who has been keeping me informed whats going on was at a funeral today for another member of his family from that same kibbutz who was killed by the terrorists and that person who was killed, his wife is also a hostage in gaza. So the tragedy is not over even for my family. Theres another hostage, and this is the story for many families in israel, and obviously hoping that some kind of Prisoner Swap will take place before an Israeli Ground invasion. This is a window of opportunity, if you like. Once israel invades gaza with a hundred or 200,000 soldiers, theres going to be no room for a Prisoner Swap at that point. Any negotiating that is going on now to save or swap hostages for palestinian prisoners in israeli jails has a very limited time to proceed before israels Ground Invasion begins because that would be the end of any negotiations. We were just talking, i dont know if you had a chance to hear general Barry Mccaffrey, and he said it wouldnt surprise him if the next thing is they release ten hostages as hamas tries to buy time. The question is how much time can there be before israeli patience wears out . Hes right. I didnt hear it but the general is right. You know, this is all part of Psychological Warfare and hamas has been very adept at everything its done. They are probably adept at this too. Thats a possibility. They release prisoners in dribs and drabs, in order to delay a Ground Invasion. In one sense, that would play into israels handles. Although israeli wants to destroy hamas, they need time to gather intelligence, and thats what theyre working on. Theres been no Israeli Ground invasion so far. Israel needs to gather intelligence and probably reassess the intelligence it had before. If they fail to anticipate the hamas attack, they must be looking at the intelligent information they have and say wait a minute, may we got that wrong too. They must be reassessing their intelligence, they need time to do that, and any delay that hamas may think is good for itself, may also be good for israel. Anything that delays this Ground Invasion, and gives time for some kind of negotiated settlement, i would imagine, is a good thing. I know this is going to sound like a very obvious question, but im going to ask it because i think that there is a need for people to try to even put themselves in the place of a family like yours, and i know you have been in touch with your family, can you even begin to describe, martin, the unimaginable pain, fear, terror, of being in this kind of situation . I cant describe it, to be honest with you. I mean, i can only take it in a bigger sense that after the holocaust, israel always said, you know, the phrase was always never again. Well, guess what, it just happened again. In gaza. To those families. One thousand israelis tortured, beheaded, bodies burned, killed, defenseless. You know, this is a problem. This is a mini genocide, so israelis are feeling vulnerable. The whole point of the state of israel was to have somewhere safe for jews to go and to depend on their army and their government. And there was a contract, if you like, between the people of israel and their government. When Israel Occupied gaza strip in 1967, they encouraged people to go down to live on the edge of gaza just inside israel, to establish communities in order to create what they called an envelope around gaza. And the idea was you go and live there, farm, live a quiet life, well protect you. That was the deal. Similar deal on the northern border with lebanon. And people trusted the government, and for a very long time, israels army and intelligence secret services were considered to be among the best in the world, and they probably still are but they failed totally and miserably to protect their people in the south, and after this is all over theres going to be an investigation into what went wrong. And heads, presumably will roll. The Chief Of Staff of the army said im responsible. The secret Service Responsible for gaza said i am responsible. The Prime Minister hasnt. So well see what happens there. But that sense of vulnerability, i think, is the key take away for israelis today. They cant trust the government, and government and army has to restore that sense of trust. Otherwise people will melt away from that part of the country. If i may say, martin, as someone who spent many many days with you in tel aviv and elsewhere across israel, particularly in the late 90s and early 2000s, youre not just a spectacular reporter, but such a great human being. Our thoughts are with you, your family, we love you. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. Well keep our fingers crossed for obviously not just your two Family Members, but all of the hostages. Thank you, martin, appreciate it. Thank you. I want to bring in michael oheren, former ambassador to the u. S. I want to start with the word that two american hostages have been freed. What do you make of this move by hamas . Whats your impression . Were relieved for the family. I was on that broadcast earlier where he mentioned them both, and it was very moving, very disturbing, so relieved for that family, and we are also praying for the other hostages and hoping they will be released. Having said that, hamas is very smart. They released these two hostages, i think probably because martin talked about them on the news and also because they are americans, and that makes headlines, certainly. They released a video of another hostage, mia sham, the other day because shes a french israeli citizen, duel citizen that had impact in france. Theyre playing to a foreign audience. Theyre not releasing people who do not have Duel Nationality or american or foreign nationality. Theyre going to play for time, try to draw a wedge between israel and its western allies, particularly its American Allies and play for time. Time is not what israel has. We are at maximum mobilization in this country. About 360,000 soldiers have been mobilized. This is the most productive sector of our economy, young women and men in their 30s, and 20s. Beyond that, the people of israel expect this army to go in and uproot and destroy hamas. For three very cogent and pressing reasons. One is that if hamas, if we go back to the status quo empty, the southern part of the country, which is 62 of the country, will become uninhabitable. Nobody would go back and live there anymore. We have to restore our deterrence power. We are extremely vulnerable, we have to restore that deterrence power by uprooting hamas. The third point was the one that martin articulated elegantly and accurately, the covenant between the state of israel, founded three years to the date after the holocaust on the promise it would protect the jewish people from a second holocaust and that covenant has been impaired if not threaded, and that has to be repaired as well. Theres no way the covenant can be restored under the shadow of warheads, that has to end. Theres no way israel cannot interact. I know there may be growing pressure on israel to give more time for hostage release, give more time for qatari and mediators, the qataris were involved in this mediation to release the mother and daughter. We have our own clocks and that clock is not going to tip indefinitely. Let me ask you about the idea of the destruction of hamas because, you know, i was talking to martin about the time i spent in israel, and more than 20 years ago, i happened to have an interview with the cofounder of hamas. And it happened to be on the day there was a bombing, Many University students died, including americans. I would say not only was he unapologetic in the interview we did just hours after the bombing i remember it well, yes. Somewhat joyful. He seemed pleased that the idea that american students, Innocent Americans have died. Now, he ultimately was killed but the question a lot of people have is the destruction of hamas possible, and thats a question im asking you now, mr. Ambassador. Its an excellent question, and we can destroy hamass military capabilities. We can certainly degrade its ranks or terrorists. We can kill its leaders. When you ask me whether israel can kill the idea of hamas, i will say absolutely not. The idea of hamas is the same idea as al qaeda, hezbollah, these are jihadest organizations that seek to create a caliphate. Thats their theology. The only difference between hamas and isis and al qaeda is hamas seeks to create the caliphate first by destroying israel. Its a staged issue. The issue in gaza is divorced are from say the Peace Process with the palestinians in judea and the west bank. Every time we have a Peace Process, and i go back, i was an adviser to robbie in the 90s. The hamas comes out and Mitch Mcconnell kills us but they kill the palestinians, and taking over gaza, hamas threw several hundred palestinians who were loyal to the palestinian authorities threw them off roofs. They are antipeace, as would be isis and al qaeda. We cannot exterminate the idea but together with our allies in the free thinking world, we will work to defend ourselves and hopefully create a situation in the middle east and elsewhere where people, particularly young people will have an alternative visions and alternative values, and alternative opportunities that would lead them away from that type of vicious theology. Former ambassador michael oren, i appreciate your time, sir. Thank you so much for being on the program. Thank you. Here at home, we have more Breaking News, jim jordan is no longer running for speaker of the house, according to our own ali vitali. Well get the details to you right after this. 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