join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on mobile and desktop today. tonight. we have been discussing this hour this report from reuters that the nation of qatar has been trying to organize a sort of hostages, prisoner swap, trying to arrange some sort of diplomatic initiative to get women, to get hostages and children who are being held by hamas terrorist group exchange for female prisoners who are being held in israeli jails. reuters have actually reported that not only is qatar working on that. they are working on it in coordination with u.s. government. we have been trying to get confirmation that the u.s. government is involved in any such effort to try to arrange such kind as walk. i don't have an answer for you on that. but i do have this from an nsc spokesperson just tonight on the air. we've been working -- excuse me, we are working around the clock to confirm missing u.s. citizens ' whereabouts, and will be relentless in our efforts to secure their freedom. if confirmed, they are held by hamas, but we will not comment about diplomatic implications. so, there you have it. since shortly after the news first broke of hamas's attack on israel early saturday morning, msnbc has been bringing you coverage around the clock, 24/7, that full team coverage continues now, with the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> good evening, rachel. i'm gonna pick up on a point that you raised with congressman dan goldman, but as you reported, he was in israel over the weekend with his family. and they managed to get out. and he described how people are leaving israel now. we're gonna have matthew miller from the state department joining us. i'm gonna pick up on exactly that point, what the state department can do to help people, americans, who do want to get out of israel? it is stunning, actually, how many don't, how many want to stay there. they believe it's their duty to stay there and will stay there. we will be covering all of that. >> thanks, lawrence. >> thank you. thanks, rachel. well, we are continuing our live special coverage of the situation in israel and in gaza. israel's defense minister said today i have given an order that gaza would be under complete siege. israel is threatening to cut off the electricity that it supplies to gaza, which is about 80% of the electricity in gaza. israel will also cut supplies of food and water to gaza. at least 900 people have been killed in israel and more than 600 people in gaza have been killed, at least 11 american citizens are among the dead, according to a statement today by president biden, who also said that it's likely that american citizens may be among those being held by hamas. today, hamas issued this threat. from this hour onwards, we announce that every targeting of our people who are safe in their homes without warning, we will regretfully meet with the execution of one of our enemy's civilian hostages, and we will broadcast this under duress in audio and video. israel's prime minister benjamin netanyahu said this today. >> translator: i know we all want this to end right now. but it will take time. i promise you, israeli citizens, at the end of the war, all our enemies will know that it was a terrible mistake to attack israel. what we will do to our enemy in the next days -- they would remember for generations. >> israel has called up 300,000 military reservists in the largest mobilization of reservists in israeli history. earlier tonight on msnbc, national security council spokesperson john kirby described some of president biden's day. >> he has been on the phone almost all day, certainly over the last couple of days, getting updates from his national security team, talking to foreign leaders. he had a call this afternoon with the leaders of great britain, germany, italy, and france, the so-called quint conversation, to make sure that we are all lashed up with our european allies and partners as well, in terms of coordinating our efforts to support israel going forward. >> joining us now is matthew miller, spokesperson for the state department. and i just wanted to begin with something that was raised in the last hour. congressman dan goldman was in israel over the weekend with his family on a personal visit. and they got out, they managed to get out eventually. and it raises the question of what the state department can do to help americans currently in israel who are trying to get out? >> well, i will say that we are in close touch with american citizens who are in israel, including those who want to get out. we encourage everyone who has traveled to el our safe traveler enrollment program, where they would receive realtime updates. there are still flights that are operating from the airport. it's possible also to exit by land. there are a number of carriers have suspended flights, but there are others who are continuing to operate. so, we would urge people to avail themselves of the options that do exist, to get out of israel if they choose to do so. and also, to be in touch with our embassy interest alum for any other options. >> this is a military matter now. but everything involving israel in this kind of situation always remains a diplomatic effort. what has the secretary of state's day like today? >> i will tell you, not just today, but really over the last three days since these terrorist attacks were first launch on israel. he has been on the phone with counterparts across the region, first with counterparts in israel, talking to the president of israel, the foreign minister of israel, to make sure that we do everything we can to support israel, and give them what they need, get them what they need to fight back against hamas brutal terrorist attack. the second thing that he's done, he's been in contact with leaders in the region to try and do two things. one, to send a message to anyone who might be hostile to israel, just sort of the thing that this is not the time to enter this conflict. so, anyone that might have a relationship with others who are hostile to israel, the secretary has been communicating with him to try and get messages through. the third thing he's been doing is to try and get messages to others in the region, that if they have a way to press upon hamas that now, that now is the time to release any and all hostages that they are holding. we have seen hamas take women, children, elderly israeli citizens from israel. and the secretary has been working to do everything he can to ensure they are released. >> as you have watched the events unfold, the coverage, and the way the american media is covering this for the last three days, what point do you think needs emphasis? or what would you like to say, as you are sitting there watching some of this coverage, what do you want to say to the tv screen? what do you think people should know? >> you know, it's hard to say. i will say, i think i have been struck personally, like probably most people have been struck, by the images we've seen out of israel. just the sheer brutality that hamas inflicted on the state of israel, on israeli citizens, and on american citizens. we know that there are at least 11 american citizens who are already dead. there are others that are missing. we saw hamas targeting children, targeting civilians, targeting as i said, elderly citizens. and i think that americans that see that, react to that viscerally. america also has been the victim of vicious attacks, more times than we would like to remember. so i think we recognize a lot of these images and understand that israel needs to do everything it can to defend itself. >> there was a diplomatic effort underway in the biden administration to bring saudi arabia and israel closer together in a way that, in theory, would prevent what we have seen there over the last three days. what happens to that now? >> you know, it would still be a priority for us going forward. obviously, our focus right now is on addressing the immediate situation at hand, addressing the crisis in israel. and as i said, doing everything to make sure israel has what it needs to defend itself against these brutal terrorist attacks. but that's what the secretary said over the weekend when he was on with the press and other shows. there are really two paths forward for the region. one is a path of greater integration, greater stability, where israel has normal, healthy productive relationships with its neighbors. and the other is the path, unfortunately, that the region has been on for sometime, which is towards conflict and instability. we have seen greater stabilization through israel normalizing relations with its neighbors. it's something we have encouraged, and it's something that we have worked on. but hamas has always been opposed to that. iran has always been opposed to that. hezbollah has always been opposed to that. terrorist groups are sponsors of terrorism in the region, and have always opposed greatest ability. and so, there are really two paths, there's either the path offered by hamas, or the path of greater stability. and we know which path we are gonna try to pursue. >> there is a republican block in the senate on the confirmation of an ambassador to israel. what has that done to the united states ' ability to respond to what's been happening there since saturday morning? >> i would say that we have seen a number of our ambassadors be held up unnecessarily, be delayed unnecessarily. it looks like our ambassador nominee to israel, jack lu, former white house chief of staff, former treasury secretary, will get a hearing next week. we would encourage his swift confirmation, as we would encourage the confirmation of other ambassadors in the region and other nominees who work in these critical posts who have been held up too long. because, really, when you do see a crisis strike, and crises do strike all around the world, there is no substitute for having a confirmed ambassador who speaks for the president of the united states, who can go in and talk to the leaders of that country and have the leaders know that they are speaking on behalf of the highest levels of our government. >> and i know this is a military issue and you are state department. but senator tuberville, republican senator, of course, has been famously, world famously now, blocking virtually all military promotions above a certain rank, all that have to be confirmed by the senate. so, there is no confirmed, for example, chief officer in the navy. the navy sending our biggest aircraft carrier to the region as part of this response. what does that do? and what are other countries saying to you, to the state department, about what's happening with our military? >> i would say that all of these holds and unnecessary delays potentially hurt our ability to protect the country 's national security. they are capable people in these jobs now. there are capable people who can step up and serve. but when you can't get the people who the president has picked, who senior members of the military, who the secretary of state in our case, has picked to serve these positions, it does hurt our ability to do the jobs the american people have asked us to do on their behalf. so, all we have ever asked is that the senate treat our nominees fairly, that they give them up or down votes, and that they consider them based on their record and not based on extraneous issues. that goes to nominees at the state department. it goes for our nominees across the national security space. >> iran is seen as one of the prime movers behind this and supporters of this attack on israel. how does the administration communicate with iran in a situation like this? >> we have always had the ability to get messages to iran when it is in our interest to do. so we don't talk about those messages or those channels. but we do have the ability to get those messages to iran. and i will say, i will just note without going into any detail what the president said in his first remarks on this on saturday. when he said to anyone in the region who is hostile to israel, that is considering action against israel and against the interests of israel, now is not the time to do so. >> matthew miller from the state department, thank you very much for starting off our conversation at this hour tonight. really appreciate it. >> thanks, lawrence. >> thank you. and joining us now from tel aviv is ronen bergman, staff writer for the new york times magazine. he is the author of rise and kill first: the secret history of israel's targeted assassinations. what explains how the israeli military could have been so surprised by this attack, so taken off guard? >> i think that the coverage of some of the communications of hamas is some details becoming known to us. it wasn't perfect, to see moderate on that. israel is monitoring these massive efforts in gaza, trying to have surveillance especially over hamas. israel knew that hamas would attempt to launch such a crisis strike, in general, but they did not know. by far, they underestimated the hamas ability to cross defense and launch this sophisticated, and i'm saying that regrettably, this attack. the military intelligence, the general secret service did not supply any alert. the u.s. intelligence is dependent on israel in covering those areas. so, the u.s. was blind as well. and i think that there is no other way but to describe this as the worse intelligence blunder, fiasco in the history of israel, second only maybe to what happened exactly 50 years, to the day, before last saturday, in october 1973 when israel did not know that egypt and syria were to launch a preemptive strike. there is a striking similar characteristics between the two fiascoes. and they're not sure if israel learned a lesson in the first. and here we see the consequences of the second. >> and at this point, are israelis in any public way holding anyone responsible for this, for the intelligence failure, is it something that is being laid at the responsibility of netanyahu, or is the country just more unified or aimed at self-defense? >> the country has been divided. this is what we see after a year of severe political crises, clashes, protests, and attempted legal judicial coup. overall, the leaders of the intelligence community repeatedly warned netanyahu that the enemy sees this crisis as a weakness of israel. and the enemy might try to use this time to launch an attack. netanyahu, the outcome should have been netanyahu taking this into consideration and stopping the legislation. but netanyahu did the exact opposite. and he continued what was described to him as serious threats to the national security of israel. so, a lot of people see netanyahu as the one responsible. but, of course, asking, and this is more on a tactical level, how come we didn't know? how come israel missed the signs, the intelligence, noise that needs to be created when you have hundreds of people, hamas militants, trained for at least a year, many in the look. and israel until the last hour there were signs in the last hour, but the warning of those signs as well did not reach. israel did not know anything. israel was very self assured in its ability to know everything that is happening in the gaza strip. big area, very dense, very populated, but not a very big area. israel was very confident that nothing can happen. and if it happens, no one can cross the fence. i think those two components, trusting the intelligence, and trusting the massive fence that was built there, put israel in some sort of fatigue or sleep, the israeli defense establishment thought nobody would be able to cross the fence. and hamas proved that those two were wrong. israel could not trust its intelligence, and the fence was demolished in a matter of seconds. >> ronen bergman, thank you very much for joining us at this early hour from israel, really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thank you. our breaking news coverage continues right after this break. there's something going around the gordon home. good thing gertrude found delsym. now what's going around is 12-hour cough relief. and the giggles. the family that takes delsym together, feels better together. struggling with the highs and lows of bipolar 1? 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(♪♪) (♪♪) the new stuffed quesadillas. only at el pollo loco >> yesterday, secretary of ♪ the new summer family meal. starting at $24. only at el pollo loco. state antony blinken spoke about the two paths for the region moving forward. >> there are basically two paths that are before the region right now. one is the path of normalization, of integration, of people working together. and, by the way, in that and on that path, it's not a substitute for resolving the differences between israelis and palestinians. on the contrary, it needs to be used to advance this effort as well. but that's one path. the other path is what we have seen from hamas, terrorism, horror, and something that offers not only nothing to people throughout the region, it offers nothing to the palestinians. on the contrary, everything that hamas does makes their situation, they're light, even worse. they bring nothing but death and destruction, not only to israelis, but to palestinians. >> joining our discussion now is nicholas kristof, pulitzer prize-winning journalist and author. he is a new york times columnist. nick, thank you very much for joining us on this important night. and i just want to give you an open opportunity to give us your thoughts, as they have evolved over the last three days, on what we are seeing in israel. >> it's just been horrific to witness. and i really worry about where things go from here. i think there are three fundamental questions. one is the nature of the israeli response vis a vis gaza. there's a lot of loose talk about eliminating hamas. actually, eliminating it, i think, it's gonna be really difficult. you can't do that with air power alone. that would require a ground invasion. that would be hugely bloody all around. and there are obviously questions about hezbollah and lebanon and whether there is a second front in the north of israel. and if it is true that iran played a role in this, i think we would also very likely see israeli strike on iran and some kind of response. in other words, i think tony blinken had a point in his remarks. it looks, for the time being, there's gonna be greater fragmentation and greater suffering. the only hope is that maybe that then creates some kind of a new situation that might perhaps lay to the ground something more positive. but that is some distance away, i fear. >> let's listen to what john kirby said today about what they don't yet know about iran. >> we don't have any specific intelligence or evidence that points to direct participation by iran in these particular sets of attacks over the last couple of days. that said, of course, iran as long supported hamas and other terrorist networks throughout the region, with resources, capabilities training. and so, in that regard, clearly iran is complicit here. but in terms of specific evidence on the sets of attacks, we don't have anything. >> nick, going forward, if proof does develop on iran that the options on how to respond to that seem quite limited. >> yeah, but after all, netanyahu has repeatedly tried to get u.s. support for strikes on iranian nuclear facilities. and i i think that israel then would be, if the iranian roles were to be verified, i think there would be tremendous pressure. and i think it'll be very likely that there would be some attack on iran. i don't know how that would be. the iranian nuclear sites are deeply buried in bunkers. but i think there will be some response. i think will very likely that have its own response and it will be more likely again that hezbollah would move in as well. i think one of the things that is embarrassing for hamas is that, you know, palestinians are largely sunni. and hamas backers are principally shia. you know, hamas, iran and the like. maybe one reason they did not want saudi arabia to have this relationship with israel. >> what about russia and vladimir putin's relationship to iran and his possible indirect hand in this? >> boy, i mean, you would think that putin would be smarter than playing some role in this. but, then, again, you think putin would be smarter than invading ukraine the way he did. i mean, there's a lot of talk about this. there is no evidence. i just -- i just have a hard time imagining that putin would be quite that stupid. and of course, the more players you have involved, then the more likely it is that intelligence might have leaked at some point. so, i just don't know. i've got to say, lawrence, one of the things that struck me has been the response in the west, particularly among some young people, who are -- because they are critical of israel's policy towards palestinians, have embraced hamas. and you know, perceive them as freedom fighters. as somebody who has been to gaza repeatedly, that just so mistakes what hamas is, did he agree to with -- repressive within gaza, misogynists within gaza, and that obviously doesn't even go to what it just did in israel. >> yes, nick, there are very few americans who've been in gaza as much as you have. some of the people you know, the non combatants, citizens of gaza, what are they feeling tonight? >> oh, i'm sure they're just terrified. you know, on the one hand, they have been completely impoverished. the pro capita income in gaza is around 1200 dollars a year. it's only a quarter that of the west bank. people are in these crowded, difficult tenants. there is, you know, very little fuel, now electricity. electricity is gonna be cut off. and they are resentful, in many cases, of hamas. they are deeply resentful of israel. they are frustrated. we have seen a bunch of high school students and asking them their views about israel and to what extent they would support terrorist actions, and you know, would they support killing a soldier, killing a settler, killing an israeli child. and they were deeply anti israel. and they expressed their frustration and anger. but they also did have a humanity and did not want to hurt civilians. and that humanity was totally not reflected in anything that hamas did. >> nicholas kristof, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> good to be with you, lawrence. >> thank you. our breaking news coverage continues right after this break. if we want a more viable future for our kids, we need to find more sustainable ways of doing things. america's plastic makers are investing billions of dollars in new technologies and creating plastic products that are more recyclable. durable. and dependable. our goal is a cleaner, healthier planet for generations to come. for a better tomorrow, we're focused on making plastics better today. i was stuck. unresolved depression symptoms were in my way. i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles, or confusion, as these may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death, weight gain, and high cholesterol may occur. movement dysfunction and restlessness are common side effects. stomach and sleep issues, dizziness, increased appetite, and fatigue are also common. side effects may not appear for several weeks. i didn't have to change my treatment. i just gave it a lift. ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save. that first time you take a step back. i made that. with your very own online store. i sold that. and you can manage it all in one place. i built this. and it was easy, with a partner that puts you first. godaddy. she runs and plays like a puppy again. his #2s are perfect! he's a brand new dog, all in less than a year. when people switch their dog's food from kibble to the farmer's dog, they often say that it feels like magic. but there's no magic involved. 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(♪♪) your best defense against erosion and cavities is strong enamel- nothing beats it. new pronamel active shield actively shields the enamel to defend against erosion and cavities. i think that this product is a gamechanger for my patients- it really works. >> the grim numbers at this hour are that nearly 1600 people have been killed so far, according to officials in israel and gaza. at least 100 people in israel have been kidnapped by hamas. the white house says 11 americans have been killed and there may be more americans missing. joining us now is msnbc anchor and chief correspondent ali velshi, who is joining us from tel aviv. ali, what is the situation over there now? >> well, lawrence, there's been another very active day. we are getting into day four of this now. and the big news, of course today, there has been some activity at the northern border. and there's some real concerns about hezbollah, 300,000 reservists called up. never has israel seen that kind of number. they don't even have enough people here now. so they are sending aircraft to bring reservists back to israel to serve. there's been more activity on the west bank, four shootings at least in a situation that's been hot for about ten months. and then, of course, the hostage issue in gaza. gaza now threatening, hamas threatening that anymore bombing of residences without warning in gaza, they will execute hostages. the israelis are trying to get a handle on where these hostages are. there's been a real threat of the ground invasion, you talked to nicholas about that. that is a really complicated and involved a matter, and i talked to somebody who said that the ground invasion of gaza would be akin to baghdad or mogadishu, or a place like that. it's urban warfare. so, tensions are running high. -- in gaza that they probably got three or four days of fuel. when they went out of diesel fuel, they can't run their electrical power station. so, all electricity goes out. water, food, everything is brought into gaza so there is that. there is that problem that the people are dealing with. and there is no particular in light at the end of the tunnel at the moment. benjamin netanyahu came out, made a speech, did warn gazans to get out of the bases, they're gonna bomb. it's not really a reality for most gazans. 2. 2 people live in one of the densest places on earth. so it's not looking hopeful tonight. lawrence, there's a lot of tension. i have spoken to people here who say they haven't felt this fear since 1973. and israelis take pride in the fact that they are constantly under threat, and they are fine. life goes on. even in a place like this in tel aviv, it's normally bustling, you know, it's five in the morning now, but at eight, nine, ten at night, it's bustling. not tonight. no cafés are open. restaurants are closed. people are off the streets. and it is not looking like there's anything on the forefront that's gonna make this easier or better in the coming few days. again, this hostage situation is the most important situation to israel at the moment and to the united states. so, we will hear from the president tomorrow. but that's the thing that's at the forefront right now, lawrence. >> ali velshi, thank you very much for that live report. really appreciate it. thank you. >> my pleasure. >> and nbc news correspondent ali arouzi has this report tonight from iran. >> reporter: well, the reality at this stage, we don't know a lot about if or how much iran was involved in the planning of these attacks. the iranian foreign ministry, after two days, has denied being involved in these attacks, and the us says that there is no smoking gun that points towards iran. but what we do know is that iran has been talking a lot about plans for some sort of palestinian strike on israel for over a year now. tehran openly and enthusiastically has supported these attacks by hamas. and once they did happen, it was heavily celebrated by iranian officials, from members of parliament to irgc forces. and leading up to this attack, there's been a string of meetings between senior iranian officials and palestinian militant leaders. recently in june, leaders of hamas and the palestinian islamic jihad were in tehran for meetings with khomeini, quds force, president raisi, and other senior iranian officials. and iran's foreign minister, hossein amir-abdollahian, visited beirut, for amongst other reasons, to coordinate amongst palestinian factions. and according to state media, he met with officials and senior leaders of the pij, hamas, and hezbollah, underscoring to them the priority of unity and the imperativeness of expanding the fight from gaza to the west bank. also, hamas ' representative in lebanon most recently was here in iran. now, iran's foreign ministry says that it wasn't involved in those attacks. yet a spokesperson from hamas told, in an interview said that he had received support from iran. four days before hamas started its assault, iran's supreme leader ali khamenei posted a message on x, saying that israel was a cancerous regime, that it's coming to that. look, the bottom line here, for decades, iran has set up its proxies for just this reason, so they can be a thorn in israel's side, and without the fight coming onto iranian soil. today a massive billboard that went up in the capital saying that the fight is in tel aviv, not in tehran. >> that was nbc's ali arouzi in tehran. coming up, richard stengel, robin wright, and peter beinart will join us after this break. ugh, this guy again... pops! ay son! ya got a little somethin' on yuh face. needed a quick shave. quick shave? respect the process! it ain't my dad's razor, dad, it's from gillettelabs. gillette...labs? gillette's ultimate shaving experience. this green bar releases trapped hairs from my face. gamechanga! while the flexdisc contours to it. lookin' smooth. feelin' even smoother. how 'bout hookin' me up with some gillettelabs? check your texts. you're the 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what the prospects are, of some kind of peace agreement? hamas does not represent all the palestinians. but it does represent an important idea that represents today the greatest challenge to the israeli state. and it will in the foreseeable future. the great challenge for israel today is that it can decisively punish hamas, decapitate its movement, destroy its arsenal, obliterate its command posts. but the idea of hamas, the non state actor is not going to disappear through the use of military force. and that's a great challenge. so, the short term, israel can prevail. but in the long term, the idea, the opposition with fury and passion will continue to be a challenge for the jewish state. >> peter beinart, it's less than a week ago, i think it was in the middle of last week, where i read one of your regular emails on the situation there, in which to expressed strong doubt, to put it mildly, that an alliance between israel and saudi arabia would somehow be stabilizing. >> right. because saudi can't deal with the fact that israelis and palestinians live next to one another. and ultimately, their fates are intertwined. and so, what hamas did is so horrible that i am still, can't get my head around it. everybody i know has just been checking with people in israel. and the kids are being hauled up. i mean, it's just unfathomable. but the reality is that making life in gaza even more uninhabitable, it's already been declared unlivable by the united nations, but making it more uninhabitable is not gonna keep israelis safe. if a blockade we're gonna keep israel safe, this would not have happened on saturday. israel has pummeled gaza again and again. it has blockaded it for 16 years. the fundamental reality is that unless palestinians can live with dignity and freedom and safety, the ability of israeli jews to live with dignity and safety will always be under threat. >> and, rich, given that hamas does not want the kind of world that we would all hope to see, where israelis are living safely, people in gaza living safely and a kind of harmonious relationship, where they can work in both places, hamas is an active war against that. that's what their war is against. >> yes, they are in an active war against the state of israel. ironically, prime minister netanyahu tried to make -- it hamas in gaza. he gave passports for them to come and work in israel. they have been funding public work projects there. that's the irony here, which is that he is the person who's brand is, you can never trust the palestinian, who did trust that. because you want to try to divide gaza from the west bank. and i agree with peter's point, that you can't have a larger piece in the middle east, even the so-called abraham accords, with the sunni nations, which is a good thing, you can't have that ultimately with saudi arabia unless you have some disconsolation with the palestinians. >> robin wright, what should israel's strategic objective be? >> and the sort, this strategic objective is to counter the hamas influence, to beat it militarily, to eliminate its leaders. the long term, that's a great challenge. and the thing that strikes me so often about this war is that israel may have engaged in a terrible intelligence failure. but it also had a long experience in dealing with hezbollah in neighboring lebanon. and israel was there for many, many years, at the end of the day, engaged in a unilateral withdrawal because it couldn't be hezbollah, it couldn't be the idea, the influence of passion. so, this is that experience replicated. it was an even smaller militia. hezbollah it's much better arm. i think there is a possibility the displays out on a lot of levels. when you think about the past, the present, and most important of all, the future. >> peter beinart, there's so many feelings and reactions to deal with here, first of all of sympathy for the victims of this attack, which they really should be no limit on at any point with, anyone. and i've been in the last few days wondering how to combine and take the sympathy for the victims with the attack into what should be the strategic next steps. and i think we can all have different views of that. what is your view of what the strategic next step should be? >> this is not a problem that ultimately has a military solution. even if hamas were to cease to exist, the palestinian, the palestinians have been fighting israel since long, long before hamas was created. if hamas didn't exist tomorrow, most of the people in gaza are the children and grandchildren of refugees, who were expelled from israel during this war of independence, and then forced to live in this tiny little area. if palestinians don't have basic rights, basic opportunities to be citizens of a country in which they live, and to have, aspire to what's a better life, new palestinian organizations will grow up. and they may do terrible things too because brutalizing people do rule things sometimes. the i. r. a. bombed apartment buildings, department stores and london. it was horrifying. what hamas has done is horrifying. but the way to bring about peace is through a measure of justice. and that has to be a political strategy to deal with that. the military strategy can bring that sometimes, it can kill some hamas members and destroy some weapons. but you know what's also gonna produce a whole new generation of palestinians, so deeply traumatized, that they are willing to join the next hamas and take up arms again. >> one of the huge difference differences, richard stengel, between this model and the model in northern ireland, where the i. r. a. eventually just tired of the fight, and they completely lost support of the people they were allegedly fighting for. one of the reasons for that is that there was economic hope in the alternative. and you go to northern ireland now. you see belfast now. it is just a glittering example of the economic possibility that was actually being smothered by the i. r. a. and the violence on both sides and northern ireland. that hope for an economic future is really hard to see in gaza. >> yes. and, i mean, that is a lovely vision for what could happen to the palestinians. i still believe in a two state solution. if you look at the west bank versus gaza, the west bank is more prosperous. there has been this division between gaza and the west bank. and to have this kind of new dispensation, that has to be an agreement between both of them. and that is super hard to happen right now. >> robin, as we go forward through this week, we're gonna be dealing with day by day progress, or movement in this new war. it seems like we may be tonight at the end of the beginning. it seems like israel seems to have fundamentally stabilized the situation within israel. what do you expect just for the rest of this week? >> well, the hard part for israel is that it is fighting and on state actor or a militia. and the 73 war, which i covered as a young correspondent, was between states. and that is easier. you know where the address is. you know how to reach the leadership. you know what the outlines of a peace process might look like, if not the end result. the problem with hamas, it's an absolutist ideology that wants to obliterate israel. there is no prospect of some kind of peace agreement. and so, the daily battle will play out. the drama, the human drama of the hostages will traumatize, i think, the whole world as we will await their fate. but, you know, the idea that there is going to be any imminent resolution is an illusion. this is a hard fought war that is likely to play out for a considerable time, certainly far longer than the 73 war which lasted three weeks. and it's just hard to see how this is without in any way that guarantees either side dignity or piece or freedom. >> the world should unite in the demand of the release of those hostages immediately. robin wright, peter beinart, rich stengel, thank you all very much. we'll be right back. ♪ and struggle. ♪ and struggle with cpap. you should check out inspire. ♪ no mask. no hose. just sleep. inspire. sleep apnea innovation. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com wolf: don't mind me. i'm just the flu. 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