>> the office of speaker of the house of the united states house of representatives is hereby declared vacant. >> the maga congress fires their own speaker. >> who own our leadership, who all you want -- >> tonight, the painful end of kevin mccarthy's speakership, the historic dysfunction in the people's house, and the republican rage at the monster that they created. >> he's either a fool or a liar. >> have you spoken to president trump about this? >> i have. >> then, more history in a new york courtroom. >> consider this a gag order on all parties with respect to posting or publicly speaking about any member of my staff. >> the disgraced ex-president already found liable for decades of fraud, now sanctioned for attacking courtroom staff. all that, plus senator elizabeth warren and author michael lewis on his new book of the rise and fall of sam bankman-fried. when all in starts right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ good evening from new york, i am chris hayes. tonight, for the very first time in the nation's history, the speaker of the house has been fired, and the office has been left vacant. it is vacant right now. we have an interim speaker but no official speaker. and kevin mccarthy, after less than a year on the job, is out. exactly nine months ago today, house republicans held the first of 15 votes, remember that, to elevate california congressman kevin mccarthy to speaker of the house of representatives. just a few hours ago, they voted to remove him from that position. you see, as part of a deal to secure his speakership on that 15th ballot, mccarthy made a deal with the most extreme members of the conference that would allow just one disgruntled representative to force a vote to fire him. and today, maga florida congressman matt gaetz forced that vote, and seven of his colleagues went along with it. it is the first time that a speaker has been removed by a motion to vacate. the only other time that went to a vote was a quarter century ago, when congressman mark meadows tried to oust speaker boehner in 2015, a little foreshadowing. now, mccarthy could have possibly been saved had house democrats voted him to keep the job, but mccarthy spent the weekend bashing the very party that just helped to avert a government shutdown, and who would soon control his fate. >> i was not sure if it was going to pass. you want to know why? the democrats tried to do everything they can to not let it pass. >> democrats were the one who voted for this in a larger number than republicans to keep the continuing resolution alive. >> democratic leadership made the choice not to bail mccarthy out. party leadership flipped votes against mccarthy, and the caucus remained -- even as some republicans called democrats, begging them to support mccarthy ahead of the vote. the house republican conference has once again spun chaos out of nothing. and you are seeing all of these people in the run up of this, in the aftermath, house republicans, right-wing media, railing against matt gaetz as a common enemy. >> what matt gaetz is doing,, it does not appear to be a serious challenge. he did not offer himself up to be a speaker. >> you want to come out, you can kiss my butt. you put your thoughts on twitter, yeah, come out to my office -- >> people don't understand why matt gaetz is making this move right now. what he stands to gain and broader politics and the activists that he works with. >> i think it is nihilistic. i don't know what he hopes to accomplish. whoever it is to be speaker next, to try to vacate them to. >> let's be clear here, because the incentive structure in this town is completely broken. we no longer value loyalty, integrity, confidence or collaboration. instead, we have descended to a place where clicks, tv hits and the never ending quest for the most mediocre taste of celebrity drives decisions and encourages juvenile decisions that so beneath this esteemed body. >> sure, find the lie. and one particular him using interaction, a nbc reporter asked a republican member of gates's team, quote, pulled out his phone and showed this gaetz fundraising plan. matt gaetz is such an obvious charlatan. what he is doing is trying to elevate his own stature, advance to a run, by making him the center of this manufactured crisis. it is so profoundly almost comically cynical. anyone with eyes can see it. anyone can recognize it. first, he forced the u.s. to the brink of a government shutdown, which would require the democrats the bail out the house with a bipartisan vote. and now he's working with democratic voters to oust mccarthy for thesame sin of a bipartisan vote. and the cynicism on the spy here, which is like the -- of our time, comes back. that cynicism is driving fellow republicans nuts, and it is working. they are totally right. gaetz is a fraud, a con artist, purely forming a chaos, at his own stature, all while raising funds from his supporters. here is the thing, here is the thing. everything that is true about matt gaetzcan be said 1000 times over about donald trump, the guy they all answered to, who runs the republican party. to all the republicans who are frustrated with how all of this went down, you think matt gaetz was reckless when he tried to force a government shutdown? donald trump was the one who told him to do it. donald trump shut his own government as president. you think that gaetz did too much to sour mccarthy's reputation with the faithful. donald trump did nothing to help mccarthy's job this week, at least not publicly. you think matt gaetz is motivated more by his petty personal feuds than a political vision or shared governing ethos? donald trump is running for president explicitly on a platform of retaliation against his perceived enemies. do you think gaetz is manipulating is base to squeeze some more small dollar donations from them? donald trump is hoovering up hundreds of millions of dollars from his die hard supporters with dangerous lies and manipulation. do you think that matt gaetz is a malignant narcissist who sows chaos for his own personal gain? do you remember the trump presidency? i mean, it is just wild to watch them stop at their feet and rage against matt gaetz. oh, matt gaetz is running so unreasonably. this is the stuff that those of us who oppose trump have been saying for years. and, sure, republicans talk tough when it is some shady congressman from florida. but when donald trump does the exact stuff, only worse, much worse and more dangerous, republicans defend him, make policies for him, simply say nothing. there are a lot of republicans willing to go on the record against gaetz in this instance. how many of them spoke out against trump when he essentially called for his own chairman of joint chiefs to be executed? and, again, this is not some kind of gotcha. it is the abdication of responsibility that is woven now into the very nature of the republican party. that is the party that they have. and they have the party that they have now, the party where matt gaetz can do this. they have the party. you built it. republicans and right-wing media after spending decades cultivating the worst instincts inside their own political coalition simply because at each marginal moment, it was the path of least resistance and it got them power for one more day. just a series of cynical short term decisions about what to do, and every time they did one of those little decisions. i would not speak now, go along with this, every time they did that, these tactical decisions to enable that cowardice and to feed that monstrous appetite for destruction and punishment, cruelty, each time they did that, they dug a little deeper down into the moral abscess into which they have fallen. and now, here they are. look around, they have dug to the bottom of the hole. they can't climb back out, stuck there with matt gaetz, the rest of the extreme maga caucus. so to the house republican congress, you have no one to blame but yourselves. you dug the hole. the problem is, you drag the whole country down with you. there is no one left to pull you back out. congressman adam schiff is a democrat of california. earlier this year, he was kicked off the committee by mccarthy. he is also now candidate for california, and he joins me now. what was it like when he saw that house, and what do you think? >> you know, it was very interesting because while our members were glad to see him go, there was really no jubilation. it was very somber. we all recognized that this was something that has never happened before in history. to see that chair literally vacant was very striking. all that being said, it was the right decision. kevin mccarthy was incapable of governing. the republicans don't trust him, the democrats don't trust him. he reneged on his promises, turned on his commitment to the president on the shutdown and debt ceiling deal. he supported the overturning of an election, it was hard for democrats to find anything redeemable in the mccarthy speakership. but more importantly, he was not able to govern. we desperately need to address a whole serious list of things, homelessness, houselessness, security, fentanyl and inflation, and we could not do that, because mccarthy could not govern effectively. it was a horrible lost opportunity the last ten months. i hope now they will pick someone that is at least trustworthy, that has some governing ability so that we can get back to focusing on americans. >> okay, okay, do you hear what you just said, the last sentence? where is that going to come from? i am just going to get the argument on the other side. i don't know what the right thing is. i am not a conservative, right? the house democratic caucus faced a choice no one has ever faced before. so what do you do here? i guess the argument you could make here is that you say, you guys have to work this out yourself, you're the majority. we will not vote affirmatively against a motion to vacate. because he is not our guy. we will not help out gaetz. you guys figure it out because whatever comes after him will likely be worse. i guess that is the question. isn't the rule of the trajectory republican politics that what comes next is always worse? >> well, that was certainly the rue with donald trump that every act succeeding the last by trump was worse than the one before, but honestly, i am not sure how much worse we can get than the chaos we have on the house floor over the last nine or ten months. we just emerged from ome crisis to another, completely man-made, that is. we lurched up to a default on our debt. we lurched up to a shutdown. we did not attend to the real problems facing the country. look, he proved incapable of governing. there are many conservative leaders, people like liz cheney and adam kinzinger, who have principal, and we can fight over policy, because we have profound policy differences, but at least you can work with them in the sense that their word is worth something. i think that was true of boehner, true of ryan, but it is not true of mccarthy. if you have someone with a basic level of trust, it's hard to do the people's work. >> that is interesting. i heard from gaetz to nancy mace to you and others about this point, that you literally cannot trust him. he would give his word on something, and it did not count for something. independent of ideology, that matters. there was a moment today, they are losing their minds. they are furious in the house republican caucus. we would call another circumstances, a runoff action 200 plus majority, it's a rump fashion that this. this is patrick mchenry, now speaker pro tem, venting his obvious rage as he gaveled close tonight. i want to play this, because it's a remarkably revealing moment. take a watch. >> accordingly pursuant to clause 12 a of rule one, the chair declares the house recess subject to the call of the chair. >> the house is now in recess for a week, so now what happens? >> well, i think one of two things. either, they leave mckendry there. there is no time limit on how long a pro tem can serve. or they get someone else they can get the votes for. look, there has to be someone in their conference who has not annoyed this faction or that can at least provide some modicum of stability, but, look, chris, you are absolutely right. this is a problem entirely of their making. they created this maga monster, this extreme maga base that has completely gotten out of control. now, they are kind of running scared of it. they embrace trump as am agent, and what they will quarrel with matt gaetz and now. you are absolutely right about that. there is no greater chaos agent than donald trump. it is more than amusing and critical to see them attack matt gaetz for being a chaos agent. they elected a chaos agent. they still owe their fealty to the greatest chaos agent that this country has seen, donald trump. they made this monster. they are trying to deal with it now. for the country sake, they need to somehow get their house of the half an order, pick someone who can govern who can be trusted so that we can move things forward, because there is no reason why the country cannot have another great leadership, but for the broken governance, and right now it's broken because republicans can't even get along with each other. >> congressman adam shift of california, thank you very much, appreciate it. >> thank you. >> david jolly is a former republican congressman from the state of florida. he has since left the party, and he joins me now. david, you were there from earlier iterations of the same dynamic. sort of different challenges against leadership. remember, meadows, boehner, the base, a lot of folks hated boehner, boehner retired rather than keep going. paul ryan, something, got out of the job. what is your reaction today? >> i like that framing, chris. in many ways, republicans have always had -- some internal squabbles as have democrats. you can go back to the launch of the tea party and the real movement of moving from less government to no government to no under trump, the government is the enemy. you saw this faction begin to emerge. honestly, even the mainstream republicans tried to curry favor with that faction so that they would not get tossed out. in many ways, the fact -- the fight that you saw today was a fight that all republicans agreed to. have they knew nobody could when it, nobody would accept responsibility for it. i think the one thing that is probably most disappointing about mccarthy's comments, even tonight after saying that he would not remain speaker, is that he is still blaming democrats. he is now blaming the caucus that he enabled, he is still blaming the rules that he agreed to. to he's still blaming the agreement that he reached in january, because even kevin mccarthy himself cannot accept responsibility for his own culpability. >> this is some of the most titanic as fighting that i have ever seen. a bunch of conservative take mongers hawking their wares like -- why this is the democrats fault? here is mccarthy, take a look. you all know matt gaetz. you know it was personal. it had nothing to do about spending. it had nothing to do about everything he accused was something that he was doing. it was about was getting attention from you. we are reading email fundraisers from him as he is doing it, join in quickly. that is not governing. that is not becoming of a member of congress. and regardless of what you think, i have seen the texts, it was all about his ethics. you need 218. unfortunately, 4% of our caucus, including all the democrats, can dictate who that you can be the republican speaker of the house. i don't think that rule is good for the institution, and apparently, i am the only one. i believe i can continue to fight in a different manner. i will not run for speaker again. i will have the conference pick somebody else >> so, he literally said, i don't think that role is good for the institution. bro, you negotiated that rule. you negotiated the rules package so you can be speaker. what are you talking about? >> and this is such classic mccarthy. this is not all about matt gaetz. that is one person. it takes five republicans to kick him out, and eight of them voted against him. if it is just about matt gaetz, kevin mccarthy would have survived today, and he would be running for speaker again, even if he lost today's vote. this is because the arsonist caucus has become so empowered by kevin mccarthy himself, that he now could not contain it. this was an inevitability. we knew that this day was coming since january. kevin mccarthy just tried to pretend in his own vanities and self-confidence that it would not, but we knew it would, and kevin mccarthy would suffer the consequence. we dsicussed in january and asked, does mccarthy stay in office? that is a real question for a speaker now leaving the high post in the chamber. he will simply be a rank and file colleague of matt gaetz, who knows what he does next? >> there is a lot of money for him to go, work in town, if he wants to. i would suspect that is calling him. >> the one thing he may do, chris, he still controls the house republican fundraising apparatus better than anybody. he's really good at it. he may run out the term just raising money to get republicans reelected. >> so they can -- that is the thing. so they can -- even when you had the inserted faction trying to describe what the relief was, and they are up there today talking about cutting spending, it's like, you don't care about cutting spending. donald trump as the president. it's like, what do you want to do? the question remains unanswered for the whole republican party, other than donald trump, which is rule america by force. but other republicans have to come up with a vision of what they want to do. >> that is right. i think this is the opportunity lost for mccarthy, somebody who might have otherwise had a vision had he not made the choice to go all in with trump and market mission. democrats in the country are in a no worse situation, even if say mccarthy is replaced by joe jordan. the reason is this. what are we worried about? is the new speaker going to launch an impeachment investigation because kevin did that. are they going to cut spending by 30%, because kevin supported that as well. at the end of the day, it feeds into the worst characteristics about him, which is his love of trustworthiness. >> david jolly, thank you very much. coming up, donald trump now has 90 criminal indictments, one gag order. the latest legal trouble for the quadruple invaded ex president, next. osion and cavities. i think that this product is a gamechanger for my patients- it really works. the power goes out and we still have wifi gamechanger for my patients- to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. home of the xfinity 10g network. here's why you should switch from chrome to duckduckgo. duckduckgo is a browser you download to your mobile and desktop devices. unlike chrome, the duckduckgo browser has privacy built-in. it comes with a private alternative to google search, which doesn■t spy on your searches, and it blocks cookies and creepy ads. and there's no catch. it's free. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you around. >> today, a new york judge join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on mobile and desktop today. chastised donald trump and imposed a gag order on the ex president in the wake of his personal attacks targeting, get this, the judge's law clerk. in the middle of the second day of the civil trial for charges of fraud, trump posted a photo of that clerk along with a derogatory comment referring to her as, quote, disgraceful. the post war taken down, but judge arthur engoron called it unacceptable and inappropriate, saying to trump that he is forbidden from saying or publicly speaking about any member of the court staff. of course, this is not that surprising, because it is donald trump's only move when he is challenged. he escalates, right? right now, the ex president is on trial in manhattan in the civil suit about his business practices. he is set to go to trial or the next year into more civil cases, a defamation and class action suit. he has been indicted on 91 criminal charges across -- cases and faces the responsibility of living out the rest of his natural life behind bars, which is scary for anyone. i think he is scared. he is doing the one thing that he knows what to do, which is to go after his perceived enemies, raise the tension. this is not just criticism. trump is very clearly painting targets on the backs of the people that he singles out, but a clerk at this court? do you think that clerk has security? what happens when that clerk is identified by the maga lords? what trump is doing is deliberate. it will only get worse. as the pressure on him increases. danya perry is an attorney general and the state of new york. and she joins me now. take us back, pretend we are not in trump's world, and i just described to you that this happened, okay? a defendant in the civil suit goes into court and posts a picture of the judge's clerk with like derogatory comments mid trial. have you ever encountered that before? >> in my decades of practice on both sides of the aisle as a prosecutor and a defense lawyer, never seen anything like it, -- hope to never again. >> what would happen? >> exactly what happened today would happen. we have seen, as he said, a pattern of this with trump. he's gone after judges, prosecutors, families of judges and prosecutors, children. this, to me, is a whole new level, a civil servant, a young woman who has done nothing other than sit by the side of the judge who drew this case. that is it, so i was not surprised to see the justice reaction. we will see what happens if and when trump breaks the gag order. >> that, to me, the gag order today, i was somewhat relieved to see, this is clear that he will test and test and test. in all of these different venues and jurisdictions with all of these other judges to see, what can i get away with? what will you let me get away with? >> the court set today in issuing a gag order, if pushed to it, i will impose more severe sanctions. those could include contempt fines, and the judge has not hesitated to do that against defendant in the past. it could include on rare occasion, perhaps this one, if it continues down the path, could include imprisonment. >> one of the things, again, i live in the world of public discourse. i criticize people, people criticize me, that's how a free society works, right? there is a distinguishing element of trump, because there is a proven record of people he targets getting lots of threats. and also examples of people like the maga bomber and others who have actually gone two lengths, right? so, john kelly, the chief of staff put this on the record statement, where he is talking about trump calling for milley to be executed for treason. and one at the things he said is, what can i at the already not been said. a person that has no idea what america stands for and has no idea what america is all about. a person who cavalierly suggests that a selfless warrior who has served his country for 40 years in peacetime and war should lose his bipartisan -- here is this point. the expectation that someone will take action. this is john kelly, chief of staff who worked for him, saying his characterization of that criticism of milley is an expectation, someone will take. action. i have to imagine, that is being read by court officers across these various different courts. >> yeah, i think that there has been a lot of security on center street and downtown manhattan. there is extra security for the prosecutors in this case. and for witnesses, including michael cohen, who will testify as early as next week. he's had death threats. i have had disgusting things sent to me. there is, i believe, a purposeful, very intentional goal here with these kinds of comments. he knows that they hit. he knows what the target is, and he knows that there is the potential, at least, for violence. it has happened before. there is certainly also the potential for intimidation, short of violence. violence might not be required if he is able to silence, as you said, his perceived enemies or even just witnesses or court clerks. that one is really hard to square, so i think he has got a bridge too far for this judge, for sure. >> i would predict, that it would be the first of a few gag orders. we will see what tanya chutkan has to say about it. danya perry, it's always great to have you here. still ahead, as house republicans ditch their speaker, senate democrats gain a new colleague, massachusetts senator warren on the striking contrast between the two ruling. parties next. taking charge of your health. so every day, you can say, ♪ youuu did it! ♪ with centrum silver. you deserve better than that. i'm hungry, i'm in a hurry, i don't have time to make anything healthy. you could if you had a blendjet. blendjet? it's the portable blender that makes the healthy choice the most convenient choice. i don't know. it seems like a hassle. hahaha! wrong. just pour in some milk, add some frozen fruit, and bam! you've got a nutritious and delicious smoothie. mmm! that is good. you're welcome, sad office guy. get yours today at blendjet.com are we in in an ad? we sure are. >> it was a chaotic day for the house of representatives, as the caucus did their own republican speaker, at least in part for not shutting down the government. contrast that with what has been happening in the senate, where the newest senator was sworn in, the president of emily's list, a group that helps women get elected. she is the first openly lgbtq woman to represent california, replacing the late dianne feinstein. she is the only black woman in the chamber, the third ever. the senate has approved a bipartisan majorities to pass funding bills -- it's not to say that everything is synthetic, but a stark reminder that the democratic majority in the senate versus a republican majority in the house. -- raphael warnock special election, surprisingly good midterm performance is, you know, fully invested and just a basic governing project, which can't be said of the house. a member of that majority is senator elizabeth warren, the democrat from massachusetts. she joins me now. senator, i know you folks on the senate side don't say a lot about the house and vice versa, but i have to ask you on this day, this has never happened in the history of the country. it's been a long time. we have been through some stuff. what do you make of what is going on on the other side at the capitol? >> for me, it's about the contrast between the parties. look, for the first two years after joe biden was elected, democrats were in the majority in the house and senate. look at what we got done. we got base infrastructure package through in forever. we got the biggest climate package through in the history of the world. we got a 15% minimum corporate tax. we got through 35 dollar insulin, got a cap on what seniors will spend on their prescription drugs. we got through getting rid of junk fees, many at the junk fees out there, we made a good, good start on getting rid of student loan debt for over 3 million people. stuff that is about the business of governing and trying to make government work better for the people. now, the republicans have been in control of just one house in government, and in that year and a half, what have they gotten done? they merely pushed off over the cliff on not raising the debt ceiling, and they nearly shut down the government with -- because they could not fund it. in other words, democrats are here to try to govern, to try to make congress work for the people, and the republican extremists are just here to cause as much chaos, as much pain as humanly possible because they think it will help donald trump get reelected. >> he talked about that democratic trifecta with biden in both houses. the last time there was one was the busy years of coming out of the great recession. 2009, 2010, one of the significant pieces of legislation that was the dodd-frank financial regulation, a huge sprawling regulation, which contained in it a new agency that was the brain child of a law professor named elizabeth warren, who was writing about financial regulation and had a famous line saying, if you sold mortgages, sold them as course there's, you would not be allowed to put them on shelves, because we have a consumer product safety commissioner that says if the toaster blows up, you cannot sell it. and that brain child of the consumer product safety commission for finance regulations, consumer finance protection board became a reality. it is now a reality, has been for years. today, a bunch of great a -- payday lenders, were before the supreme court of the united states, trying to get rid of it, trying to destroy it, saying it is unconstitutional to have the financial protection bureau th gets its funding authorized by congress but through the federal reserve. i know this is incredibly near and dear to you. with did you make of today's argument? >> partly, they are still coming after the agency because it works. it has shut down these scams, forced the big financial institutions to return more than 17 billion dollars to people that were cheated by the institutions. the agency is handling about 3000 complaints a day. and so the payday industry, remember, these are the guys who make their profits by preying, for example, on young service members, with loans that run as high as 400% interest. they have sued the agency and lost, sued the agency and a lost, sued the agency and lost. and now, this is their hail mary. they claim that the agency is unconstitutional because it is not funded through appropriations. here is the problem with that, it also turns out that the federal reserve bank is not funded through appropriations. neither is the fdic, neither is the occ. in fact, no banking regulator in the history of banking regulators in the united states has ever been funded through appropriations. it gets worse than that. it turns out that social security is not funded through appropriations, medicare is not funded through appropriations. and that was where the supreme court went today. the payday lender said sink the p f pb, and everybody in the room was asking, if you sink the cfpb, are you going to sink the whole dammed economy? and the answer to that question is, yeah, that is the risk, and that is what today's debate was all about. >> it's like, i understand why you, loan sharks, may not like anything that regulates things like interest, but are we going to mess around and declare the federal reserve unconstitutional? it just seems like they are treading in very dangerous waters with this argument, which at least had a sympathetic hearing that it got to the court. but the questions in oral arguments seem pretty skeptical. >> but you know, part of what helped that law, i want to give a little shout out here, the mortgage bankers, the home builders, folks who actually were involved in the crash back in 2008, by the way, chris, did you remember that today's an anniversary. exactly 15 years ago today, congress had to pass a 700 billion dollar bill of bail out to be able to make that money available so that our banking system did not implode. what has been the big thank you from those giant banks? it's been to keep lobbying to try to get rid of the consumer financial protection bureau so that they can continue to run more and more of these frauds. and today, what people were pushing on the supreme court, was to say, if you decide that this funding mechanism for the cfpb is unconstitutional, you really run the risk of blowing up the whole system. that's what i said, even the mortgage broker said, don't do this, this is dangerous. >> senator elizabeth warren, thank you so much for your time tonight, appreciate it. >> you bet. >> coming up next, michael lewis on sam bankman-fried, don't go away. attention hearing loss sufferers! do you struggle to hear loved ones? 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i did! golo's a lifestyle change and you make the change and it stays off. (soft music) the trial of sam bankman-fried started today. he, of course, the one-time crypto billionaire, became the richest person on earth under 30, in a matter of 18 months. he was also one of the biggest donors in democratic politics, and he basically had the whole world at his feet. president bill clinton was on stage with him at a crypto conference. he got athletes like tom brady, steph curry, and remember, comedians like larry david, roberta cut that commercial? for the super bowl for his crypto exchange, ftx? and then the thing went bust. completely bust. sam bankman-fried was subsequently indicted for conspiracy and fraud. by federal prosecutors. if he's convicted, he could face over 100 years in prison. and it's one of the most spectacular rise and fall stories of basically anyone in recent memory. as it turns out, bestselling nonfiction author, michael lewis, was basically just hanging out with bankman-fried on his way up, and the way down. his new book about it, going infinite. was published today. joining me now, michael lewis, the first live tv interview about this book. >> great to have you. >> incredible read, as all michael lewis works are. before i go into this, let me ask you this question. as someone is written about finance from liars poker, your first incredible book. when i tried to get my head around crypto. and kept having the thing of, is this a con or is it not? i kept going back and forth. i talked to some people. in the end, i was like, didn't quite come down. and then all this blew up, i was like, i guess it's a con. where is yours, independent of him, this thing, that created billions of dollars launching around the economy. where do you think of it in that trajectory? >> so, it's odd, it's kind of both. i think, in the first place, what we've been through is like a tulip craze. but the technology underneath, it it's real. it actually has promised to do things like get rid of financial intermediaries. it's not nothing. but it's maybe overblown, and the thing that's been odd about, it as a story, it's a created in 2008, from 2008 on, it had a series of narratives, it's tried to sell. but none of the narratives have been true. it's sort of like, the solution in search of a problem. >> that's what it feels. like it's a real thing. real tech, but the tulip, the famous dutch tulip craze, or beanie babies. when it got real hot and frothy in the market, when this guy is worth 30 billion, it felt like that. , >> yes, it'd. so, it hasn't, it's promises not been -- is not to say it's just nothing. it could, one day in the future, it would not be shocking if block chain was used in all financial transactions. it just hasn't happened yet. so, in between, lots of stories that have gotten told, not true stories have fields the craze. for me, the crypto itself wasn't it was the social consequences. for three trillion dollars created out of nothing. >> that really was, i mean, it was so striking, if you are even adjacent or even a few nodes away from it. all of a sudden, this money is cascading out of this thing. >> he got a big chunk of it. >> this guy, it's fascinating, look, he's a strange dude. in the end, it's like, again, there is this bernie madoff-style conman. like, benighted strange dude over his head. i feel like i ended up in--i have come down in the bernie madoff category when i read the indictment. that's not really the law in this book takes. what is your impression of him? >> just for starters, i mean, i think this is important, this distinction. but bernie madoff, it was a ponzi scheme. no real business there. so, sam bankman-fried had two businesses. he had this hedge fund he called alameda research. but he had this crypto exchange, in the exchange was a gold mine. it generate a billion dollars in revenue in 2021. it was real. without the hedge fund there to screw it up, it would still be there. it was a casino. it was like, they took little slices of every transaction in crypto. >> and the other one is still around. coinbase. >> a bunch of them are still around. most money in crypto has been made by people who bought bitcoin when it was zero, or people have created these exchanges. so, there is this real thing, and the alleged crime kind of makes no sense. he blew up a 40 billion dollar, business for this kind of hedge fund on the side. that really, was his legacy business. >> right, he did seem to take people's money in transferred over to the other. i think of him as a creature of modern finance. in any other era of wall street, he is not on wall street. he has pulled out of m.i.t. for high frequency training to identify his mind as exactly the kind of mind that belongs in finance. in almost any other period of history, he is like a high school physics teacher. here, he is kind of imprinting on it, and it is sort of like he becomes his identity, this treating thing. i think he could not let go of it. >> i saw some elon musk -- obviously, >> compare and contrast, they are different. >> they are different, but there is something about a certain kind of mind that works like a key in a lock of a certain set of problem solving, but is not great outside of that domain. [laughter] maybe, to disastrous consequences. >> bankman-fried said that until i hit wall street, i didn't think i was special at anything, that i was good at anything. there was nothing i was suited for. he hits june street and says, this is what i was put on earth to do. then, what he did is in crypto there was a bigger opportunity to do it then in stocks, bonds, and currencies. that's what's gets him going in the first place. you are watching him that can only happen, now. and it is the phenomena of someone becoming that rich, that quickly. the way the whole of society shapes itself around him. politics, media. >> there are scenes in here of what that looks like, the clustering around him. when that money comes into one person that quickly, you truly gobsmacked in. it is called going infinite, on sale today. michael lewis, great for having you here. >> thanks for having me. >> we will be right back. ♪ breeze driftin' on... ♪ [coughing] ♪ ...by, you know how i feel. ♪ if you're tired of staring down your copd,... ♪ it's a new dawn, ♪ ♪ it's a new day... ♪ ...stop settling. ♪ ...and i'm feelin' good. ♪ start a new day with trelegy. no once-daily copd medicine has the power to treat copd in as many ways as trelegy. with three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy makes breathing easier for a full 24 hours, improves lung function, and helps prevent future flare-ups. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. take a stand, and start a new day with trelegy. ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy, and save at trelegy.com if you love a little levity after this jam-packed news day you're in luck. after a new deal in place late night shows are back ipproduction tonight. i'll

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