house of representatives is hereby declared vacant. >> the maga congress fires their own speaker. >> who own our leadership, who all you want -- >> tonight, the painful and of kevin mccarthy's speakership, the historic dysfunction in the people's house and the republican rage at the monster that they created. >> he's either a fool or a liar. >> have you spoken to president trump about this? >> i have. >> then, more history in a new york courtroom. >> consider this a gag order on all parties with respect to posting or publicly speaking about any member of my staff. >> the disgraced ex president already found liable for decades of fraud, now sanctioned for attacking courtroom staff. all that plus senator elizabeth warren and author michael lewis on his new book of the rise and fall of sam bankman-fried. when all in starts right now. good evening from new york, i am chris hayes. tonight, for the very first time in the nation's history, the speaker of the house has been fired, and the office has been left vacant. it is fake it right now. we have an interim speaker but no official speaker. and kevin mccarthy, after less than a year on the job is out. exactly nine months ago today, house republicans held the first of 15 votes, remember that, to elevate california congressman kevin mccarthy to speaker of the house of representatives. just a few hours ago, they voted to remove him from that position. you see, as part of a deal to secure his speakership on the 15th ballot, mccarthy made a deal with the most extreme meof the congress that would allow just one disgruntled representative to rce a vote to fire him. and today, maga florida congressman matt gaetz forced that vote,d seven of his colleagues went along with it. it is the fit time that a speaker has been removed by a motion to vacate. the only other time that went to a boat was a quarter century ago. when congressman mark meadows tried to oust speaker boehner in 2015, a little foreshadowing. now, mccarthy could have possibly been saved had house democrats voted him to keep the job, but mccarthy spent the weekend bashing the very party that just helped to avert a government shutdown, and who would soon control his fate. >> i was not sure if it was going to pass. you want to know why? the democrats tried to do everything they can to not let it pass. >> democrats were the one who voted for this and a larger number than republicans to keep the continuing resolution alive. >> democratic leadership made the choice not to bail mccarthy out. they won with the votes against mccarthy, and the caucus remained -- even as some republicans called democrats, begging them to support mccarthy ahead of the vote. the house republican conference has once again spun chaos out of nothing. and you are seeing all of this people and the run up of this, in the aftermath, house republicans, right-wing media, railing against matt gaetz as a common enemy. >> what mokgweetsi's the-ing, it does not appear to be a serious challenge. he did not offer himself up to be a speaker. i am not aware of him supporting someone else to be speaker. >> you want to come out, you can kiss my butt. you put your thoughts on twitter, yeah, come out to my office -- >> people don't understand why matt gaetz is making this move right now. the party politics and the activists that he works with. >> i think it is nihilistic. i don't know what he hopes to accomplish. whoever it is to be speaker next, to try to vacate them to. >> let's be clear here, because the incentive structure in this town is completely broken. we no longer value loyalty, integrity, confidence or collaboration. instead, we have descended to a place where clicks, tv hits and the never ending quest for the most mediocre taste of celebrate drives decisions and encourages juvenile decisions that so beneath this esteemed body. >> sure, find the lie. and one particular him using interaction, a nbc reporter asked a republican member of gates's team, quote, pulled out his phone and showed this gaetz's fundraising plan. matt gaetz is such an obvious charlotte. what he is doing is trying to elevate his own stature, advance to a run, by making him the center of this manufactured crisis. it is so profoundly almost comically cynical. anyone with eyes can see it. anyone can recognize it. first, he forced the u.s. to the brink of a government shutdown, which would require the democrats the bill out the house with a bipartisan vote. and now he's working with democratic voters to oust mccarthy for the simpson of a bipartisan vote. and the cynicism on the spy here, which is like the -- of our time, comes back. that cynicism is driving fellow republicans not, and it is working. they are totally right. gaetz is a fraud, a con artists, purely forming a chaos, at his own stature, all while raising funds from his supporters. here is the thing, here is the thing. everything that is true about matt gaetz tempe set 1000 times over about donald trump, the guy they all answered to, who runs the republican party. to all the republicans who are frustrated with how all of this went down, you think matt gaetz was reckless when he tried to force a government shutdown. donald trump was the one who told him to do it. donald trump shut that his own government as president. you think that gaetz did too much to sour mccarthy's reputation with the faithful. donald trump did nothing to help mccarthy's job this week, at least not publicly. you think matt gaetz is motivated more by his petty personal views than a political vision or shared governing ethos? donald trump is running for president explicitly on a platform of retaliation against his perceived enemies. do you think mac kates is manipulating is based to squeeze some more small dollar donations from them? donald trump is hovering up hundreds of millions of dollars from his die hard supporters with dangerous lies and manipulation. do you think that matt gaetz is a malignant narcissist vessels cast for his own personal gain? do you remember the trump presidency. i mean, it is just wild to watch them stop at their feet and rage against matt gaetz. oh, matt gaetz is running so unreasonably. this is the stuff that those of us who oppose trump have been saying for years. and, sure, republicans talk tough when it is some shady congressman from florida. but when donald trump does the exact stuff, it works, much worse and more dangerous. republicans defend him, make policies for him, simply say nothing. there are a lot of republicans willing to go on the record against gaetz in this instance. how many of them spoke out against trump when he essentially called for his own chairman of joint chiefs to be executed? and, again, this is not some kind of gotcha. it is the abdication of responsibility that is woven now into the very nature of the republican party. that is the party that they have. and they have the party that they have no, the party where matt gaetz can do this. they have the party. you built it. republicans and right-wing media after spending decades cultivating the worst instincts inside their own political coalition simply because at each marginal moment, it was the path of least resistance and got them power for one more day. just a series of cynical short term decisions about what to do, and every time they did one of those little decisions. i would not speak now, go along with this, every time they did that, at least the tactical decisions to enable that cowardice and to feed that monstrous appetite for destruction and punishment, cruelty, each time they did that, they dug a little deeper down into the moral abscess into which they have fallen. and now, here they are. look around, they have dug to the bottom of the whole. they can't climb back out, stuck there with matt gaetz, the rest of the extreme maga caucus. so to the house republican congress, you have no one to blame but yourselves. you dug the hole. the problem is, you drag the whole country down with you. there is no one left to pull you back out. congressman adam schiff is a democrat of california. earlier this year, he was kicked off the committee by kept him artie. he is also now incentive for california, and he joins me now. first, your reaction to what went down today. what was it like when he saw that house, and what do you think? >> you know, it was very interesting because while our members were glad to see him go, there was really no jubilation. it was very somber. we all recognize that this was something that has never happened before in history. to see that chair literally vacant was very striking. all that being said, it was the right decision. kevin mccarthy was incapable of governing. the republicans don't just him, the democrats don't trust him. he reneged on his promises, turned on his commitment to the president on the shutdown and debt ceiling deal. he supported the overturning of an election, it was hard for democrats to find anything redeemable in the mccarthy's speakership. but more importantly, he was not able to govern. we desperately need to address a home whole serious list of things, homelessness, houselessness, security, fentanyl and inflation, and we could not do that, because chemical mccarthy could not effectively. it was a horrible lost opportunity the last ten months. i hope now they will pick someone that is at least a trustworthy, that has some governing ability so that we can get back to focusing on americans. >> okay, okay, do you hear what you just said, the last sentence? where is that going to come from? i am just going to get the argument on the other side. i don't know what the right thing is. i don't have a top and despite. i am not a conservative, right? the house democratic caucus faced a choice no one as ever faced before. this is all a precedent. so what do you do here? i guess the argument you could make here is that you say, you guys have to work this out yourself, you're the majority. we will not vote affirmatively against a motion to vacate. because he is not our guy. we will not help out markets. you guys figure it out because whatever comes after him, will likely be worse. i guess that is the question. isn't the role of the trajectory of republican politics that what comes next is always worse? >> well, that was certainly the role with donald trump that every act succeeding the last by trump was worse than the one before, but honestly, i am not sure how much worse we can get then the chaos we have on the house floor over the last nine or ten months. we just emerged from an crisis to another, completely man-made, that is. we lurched up to a default on our debt. we looked up to a shutdown. we did not attend to the real problems facing the country. it's hard for me to imagine how it gets worse than that. look, he proved incapable of governing. there are many conservative leaders, people like liz cheney and adam kinzinger, who have principal, and we can fight over policy, because we have profound policy differences, but at least you can work with them, in the sense that their word is worth something. i think that was true of boehner, true of ryan, but it is not sure of mccarthy. if you have someone with a basic level of trust, it's hard to do the people's work. >> that is interesting. i heard from back gates to nancy mace to you and others about this point, that you literally cannot trust him. he would give his word on something, and it did not count for something. independent of ideology, that matters. there is a moment today, they are losing their mind. they are furious in the house republican caucus. it would call another circumstances, a runoff action, a boats, 200 plus majority, it's a rump fashion that this. this is patrick mchenry, now speaker pro tem, venting is obvious rage as he gaveled close tonight. i want to play this, because it's a remarkably revealing moment. take a watch. >> accordingly pursuant to clause 12 a of row one, the chair declares the house recess subject to the call of the chair. >> the house is now in recess for a week, so now what happens? >> well, i think one of two things. either, they leave mckendry there. there is certainly a time limit on how long a pro tem conserve. or they get someone else they can get the votes for. look, there has to be someone in their conference who has not pitched off this faction or that can at least provide some modicum of stability, but, look, chris, you are absolutely right. this is a problem entirely other making. they created this magnet monster, this extreme aga bass that has completely gotten out of control. now, they are kind of running scared of it. they embrace trump as a degas agent, and what they will coral with matt gaetz and now. you are absolutely right about that. there is no greater chaos agent than donald trump. it is more than a musing and critical to see them attack matt gaetz for being a chaos agent. they elected a chaos agent. they still owe their fealty to the greatest chaos agent that this country has seen in donald trump. they made this monster. they are trying to deal with it now. for the country sick, they need to somehow get their house of the half an order, pick someone who can govern who can be trusted so that we can move things forward, because there is no reason why the country cannot have another great leadership, but for the broken governance, and right now it's broken because republicans can't even get along with each other. >> congressman adam shift of california, thank you very much, appreciate it. >> thank you. >> david jolly is a former republican congressman from the state of florida. he has since left the party, and he joins me now. david, you were there from earlier iterations of the same dynamic. sort of different challenges against leadership. remember, meadows, boehner, the base, a lot of folks hated boehner, been a retired rather than keep going. paul ryan, something, got out of the job. what is your reaction today? >> i like that framing, chris. in many ways, republicans have always had -- as have democrats. you can go back to the launch of the heap party and the real movement of moving from less government to no government to no under trump, the government is the enemy. you saw this faction begin to emerge. honestly, even the mainstream republicans tried to curry favor with enough action so that they would not get tossed out. in many ways, the fact -- the fight that you saw today was a fight that all republicans agreed to. have they knew nobody could when it, nobody would accept responsibility for it. i think the one thing that is probably most disappointing above kevin mccarthy's comments, even tonight after saying that he would not remain speaker, is that he is still blaming democrats. he is now blaming the caucus that he enabled, he is still blaming the rules that he agreed. to he's still blaming the agreement that he reached in january, because even democratic himself cannot accept responsibility for his own culpability. >> this is some of the most titanic as fighting that i have ever seen. a bunch of conservative take mongers hawking their wares like -- here is mccarthy, take a look. you all know matt gaetz. you know it was personal. it had nothing to do about spending. it had nothing to do about everything he accused was something that he was doing. it was about was getting attention from you. we are reading email fundraisers from him as he is doing it, joining quickly. that is not governing. that is not becoming of a member of congress. and regardless of what you think, i have seen the tax, it was all about his ethics. you need to 18. unfortunately, 4% of our caucus, including all the democrats, pick that you can be the republican speaker of the house. i don't think that rule is good for the institution, and apparently, i am the only one. i believe i can continue to fight for america. i will not run for speaker again. i will have the confidence to pick somebody else. >> so, he literally said, i don't think that role is good for the institution. bro, you negotiated that rule. you negotiated the rules package so you can be speaker. what are you talking about? >> and this is such classic kept mccarthy. this is not all about matt gaetz. that is one person. it takes five republicans to kick him out, and eight of them voted against him. if it is just about matt gaetz, kevin mccarthy would have survived today, and he would be running for speaker again, even if you lost today's vote. this is because the arsonist caucus has become so empowered by kevin mccarthy himself, that he now could not contain it. this was an inevitability. we knew that this day was coming since january. kevin mccarthy just tried to pretend in his own vanities and self-confidence that it would not, but we knew it would, and kevin mccarthy would suffer the consequence. we knew in january and asked, discover mccarthy stay in office? that is a real question for a speaker now leaving the high post in the chamber. he will simply be a rank and file colleague of matt gaetz, who knows what he does next? >> there is a lot of money for him to go, working in town, if he wants to. i would suspect that is calling him. >> the one thing he may do, chris, he still controls the house republican fund raising apparatus better than anybody. he's really good at it. he may run out the term just raising money to get republicans reelected. >> so they can -- that is the thing. so they can -- even when you had the inserted faction trying to describe what the relief was, and they are up there today talking about cutting spending, it's like, you don't care about cutting spending. donald trump as the president. it's like, what do you want to do? the question remains unanswered for the whole republican party, other than donald trump, which is rule america by force. but other republicans have to come down with a vision of what they want to do. >> that is right. i think this is the opportunity lost for kept mccarthy, somebody who might have otherwise had a vision had not made typical choice to go all in with trump and market mission. performing at the beginning of the show that this is kind of on all of them is true. i am in the camp that democrats in the country are in a no worse situation, even if say chemically is replaced by joe jordan. the reason is this. what are we worried about? is the new speaker going to launch an impeachment investigation because kept in the. -- kevin did that. are they going to cut spending by 30%, because kevin supported that as well. they will break a deal with joe biden. he just persistent this -- which i think it's the pass. at the end of the day, even the worst characteristics about him, which is his lack of trust worthiness. >> david jolly, thank you very much. coming up, donald trump now has 90 criminal indictments, one gag order. the latest legal trouble for the indicted ex president next. ex president next i'm jayson. i'm living with hiv and i'm on cabenuva. it helps keep me undetectable. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. cabenuva is two injections, given by my healthcare provider, every other month. it's really nice not to have to rush home and take a daily hiv pill. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients or if you taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include allergic reactions post-injection reactions, liver problems, and depression. if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have liver problems or mental health concerns, and if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. some of the most common side effects include injection-site reactions, fever, and tiredness. if you switch to cabenuva, attend all treatment appointments. ready to treat your hiv in a different way? 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right now, the ex president is on trial in manhattan in the civil suit about his business practices. he said to go to trial or the next year into more civil cases, a defamation and class action suit. he has been indicted on 91 criminal charges across -- cases and faces the responsibility of living out the rest of his natural life behind bars, which is scary for anyone. i think he is scared. he is doing the one thing that he knows what to do, which is to go after his perceived enemies, raise the tension. this is not just criticism. trump is a very clear, painting targets on the backs of the people that he singles out, but a clerk at this court? do you think that clerk has security? what happens when that clerk is identified by the maga lords? what trump is doing is deliberate. it will only get worse. danya perry it's an attorney general and the state of new york. and she joins me now. take us back, pretend we are not in trump's world, and i just described to you that this happened, okay? a defendant in the civil suit goes into court and post a picture of the judges clerk with like derogatory comments mid trial. have you ever encountered that before? >> in my decades of practice on both sides of the aisle as a prosecutor and a defense lawyer, never seen anything like it, -- >> what would happen? >> exactly what happened today would happen. we have seen, as he said, a pattern of this with trump. he's gone after judges, prosecutors, families of judges and prosecutors, children. this, camille, is a whole new level, a civil servant, a young woman who has done nothing other than sit by the side of the judge who drew this case. that is him, so i was not surprised to see the justice reaction. we will see what happens if and when trump breaks the gag order. >> that, to me, the gag order today, i was somewhat relieved to say, this is clear that he will test and test and test. in all of these different venues and jurisdictions with all of these other judges to see what can i get away with? what will you let me get away with? >> the court set today in issuing a gag order, if pushed to it, i will impose more severe sanctions. those could include contempt fines, and the judge has not hesitated to do that against defendant and the pass. it could include on rare occasion, perhaps this one, if it continues down the path, could include the president. >> one of the things, again, i live in the world of public discourse. i criticize people, people criticize me, that's how a free society works, right? there is a distinguishing element of trump, because there is a proven record of people him targeting gets lots of threats. and also examples of people like the maga monger and others who are actually like -- so, john kelly, the chief of staff put this on the record about trump calling for milley to be executed for treason. and one at the things h is, what can i at the already pin set? a person that has no idea what america stands for and has no idea what america is all about. a person who cavalierly suggests that a selfless warrior who has served his country for 40 years in peacetime and or should lose his bipartisan -- here is this point. the expectation that someone will take action. this is john kelly, chief of staff who worked for him, saying his characterization at that criticism of milley is that in expectations on taking action. i have to imagine, that is being read by court officers across these various different courts. >> yeah, i think that there has been a lot of security on center street and downtown manhattan. there is extra security for the prosecutors and the case and for witnesses, including michael cohen, who will testify as early as next week. he's had that threats. i have had disgusting things sent to me. there is, i believe, a purposeful, very intentional goal here with these kinds of comments. he knows that they hit. he knows what the target is, and he knows that there is the potential, at least, for violence. it has happened before. there is certainly also the potential for intimidation, short of violence. violence might not be required if he is able to silence, as you said, is perceived enemies or even just witnesses or court quirks. that one is really hard to square, so i think he has got a bridge too far for this judge, for sure. >> i would predict, that it would be the first of a few gag orders. -- danya perry, it's always great to have you here. still ahead, as house republicans ditch their speaker, senate democrats gain a new colleague, massachusetts senator warren on the stocking contrast between the two ruling parties next. parties next ...the massage chair at the mall. but...he wasn't. gain flings with oxi boost and febreze. we really don't want people to think of feeding food like ours is spoiling their dogs. good, real food is simple. it looks like food, it smells like food, it's what dogs are supposed to be eating. ♪ hi, i'm sally and i lost 52 pounds with golo in a year and a half. supposed to be eating. i struggled with my weight for a long time due to my thyroid issues but since being on the golo plan and taking release, the weight has not come back. 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>> for me, it's about the contrast between the parties. look, for the first two years after joe biden was elected, democrats were in the majority in the house and senate. look at what we got done. we got base infrastructure package through in forever. we've got the biggest climate package through in the history of the world. we got 15%, the minimum corporate tax. we got through 35 dollar insulin, got kept on what seniors will spend on their prescription drugs. we got through getting rid of junk fees, many at the junk fees out there, a good, good start on getting rid of student loan debt for over 3 million people. stuff that is about the business of governing and try to make government work better for the people. now, the republicans have been in control of just one house in government, and in that year and a half, what have they gotten done? they merely pushed off over the cliff and not raising the debt ceiling, and they nearly shut down the government with cuts. in other words, democrats were here to try to govern, to try to make congress work for the people, and the republican extremists are just here to cause as much chaos, as much pain as humanly possible because they think it will help donald trump get reelected. >> he talked about that democratic trifecta with biden in both houses. the last time there was one was the busy years of coming out of the great reception. 2009, 2010, one of the significant pieces of legislation that was the dodd-frank financial regulation, a huge sprawling regulation, which contained in it, a new agency that was the brain child of a law professor named elizabeth warren, who was writing about financial regulation and had a famous line saying that if you sold mortgages, sold them as course there's, you would not be allowed to put them on shelves, because we have a consumer product safety commissioner that says that if the acosta pulls up, you can't sew. and that brain child of the consumer product safety commission for finance regulations, consumer finance protection board became a reality. it is now a reality, has been for years. today, a bunch of great a lenders win before the supreme court of the united states, trying to get rid of it, trying to describe, saying it is unconstitutional to have the financial protection bureau that ts its funding authorized by congress but the federal reserve. i know this is incredibly near and dear to you. with did you make of today's argument? >> partly, they are still coming after the agency because it works. it has shut down these scams, forced the financial institutions to return more than 17 billion dollars to people that were cheated by the institutions. the agency is handling about 30,000 complaints a day. and so the payday industry, remember, these are the guys who make their profits by paying, for example, on young service members, with a loans that run as high as 400% interest. they have sued the agency and loss, sued the agency and a loss, sued the agency and a loss. and now, this is their hail mary. they claim that the agency is unconstitutional because it is not funded through appropriations. and they say, that is no good. here is the problem with that, it also turns out that the federal reserve bank is not funded through appropriations. neither is the fdic, neither is the oh cc. in fact, no banking regulator in the history of banking regulators in the united states has ever been funded the appropriations. it gets worse than that. it turns out that social security is not funded through appropriations, medicare is not funded through preparations. and that was where the supreme court went today. the payday lender says sink the p f pd, and everybody in the room was asking, if you sink the cfpb, are you going to sink the whole dammed economy? and the answer to that question is, yeah, that is the risk, and that is what today's debate was all about. >> it's like, i understand why you, the loan sharks, may not like anything that regulates things like interest, but are we going to mess around and declared the federal reserve unconstitutional? it just seems like they are treading in very dangerous waters with this argument, which at least had a sympathetic hearing that it got off to the court. but the questions in oral arguments seem pretty skeptical. >> but you know part of what help that law, i want to give a little shout out here, the mortgage bankers, the home builders, folks who actually were involved in the crash back in 2008, by the way, chris, did you remember that today's an anniversary. exactly 15 years ago today, congress had to pass a 700 billion dollar bill of bail out to be able to make that money available so that our banking system did not implode. what has been the big thank you from those giant banks? it's been to keep a lobbying to try to get rid of the consumer financial protection bureau so that they can continue to run more and more of these froths. and today, what people were pushing on the supreme court, was to say, if you decide that this funding mechanism for the cfpb is unconstitutional, you really run the risk of blowing up the whole system. that's what i said, even the mortgage broker said, don't do this, this is dangerous. >> senator elizabeth warren, thank you so much for your time tonight, appreciate it. >> you bet. >> coming up next, michael lewis on sam bankman-fried, don't go away. ed don't go away. struggling with the highs and lows of bipolar 1? 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( ♪♪ ) constant contact. helping the small stand tall. the trial of sam bankman-fried started today. he, of course, the one-time crypto billionaire, became the richest person on earth under 30, in a matter of 18 months. he was also one of the biggest donors in democratic politics, and he basically had the whole world at his feet. president bill clinton was on stage with him at a crypto conference. he got athletes like tom brady, steph curry, and remember, comedians like larry david, roberta cut that commercial? for the super bowl for his crypto exchange, ftx? and then the thing went bust. completely bust. sam bankman-fried was subsequently indicted for conspiracy and fraud. by federal prosecutors. if he's convicted, he could face over 100 years in prison. and it's one of the most spectacular rise and fall stories of basically anyone in recent memory. as it turns out, bestselling nonfiction authors, michael lewis, was basically just hanging out with bankman-fried on his way up, and the way down. his new book about it, going infinite. was published today. joining me now, michael lewis, the first live tv interview about this book. >> great to have you. here >> greater. see >> incredible read, as all michael lewis works are. before i go into this, let me ask you this question. someone is written about finance from liars poker, your first incredible book. when i tried to get my head around crypto. and kept having the sting of, is this icon or is it not? i kept going back and forth. is it a con, is it not. i talked to some people. in the end, i was like, didn't quite come down. and then all this blew up, i was like, i guess it's a con. where is yours, independent of him, this thing, that created billions of dollars a slashing around. >> trillions. >> trillions of dollars. slashing around the economy. where do you think of it in that trajectory? >> so, it's odd, it's kind of both. i think, in the first place, what we've been through is like a tulip craze. but the technology underneath, it it's real. it actually has promised to do things like get rid of financial intermediaries. it's not nothing. but it's maybe overblown, and the thing that's been odd about, it as a story, it's a created in 2008, 2008 on, it had a series of narratives, it's tried to sow. but none of the narratives have been true. it's sort of like, the solution in search of a problem. >> that's what it feels. like it's a real thing. it will take your. but the tulip, the famous dutch tulip craze, or beanie babies. when it got real hot and frothy in the market, when this guy is worth 30 billion, it felt like that. >> yes, it'd. so, it hasn't, it's promises not been -- is not to say it's just nothing. it could, one day in the future, it would not be shocking if block chain was used in all financial transactions. it just hasn't happened yet. so, in between, lots of stories that have gotten trolled, that's fueled the. squeeze in for me, the crypto itself wasn't it was the social consequences. for three trillion dollars created out of nothing. >> that really was, i mean, it was so striking, if you are even adjacent or even a few nodes away from it. all of a sudden, this money is cascading out of this thing. >> he got a big chunk of it. >> this guy, it's a fascinating, look, he's a strange dude. in the end, it's like, again, there is this bernie madoff style conman. like, benighted strange dude over his head. i feel like i ended up in, i have come down in the bernie madoff category when i read the indictment. that's not really the law in this book takes. what is your impression of him? >> just for starters, i mean, i think this is important sanction. everyone shouted me when i make it. but bernie madoff, it was a ponzi scheme. a definition of upon his scheme. no real business there. so, sam bankman-fried had to businesses. he had this hedge fund he called alameda research. he had this crypto exchange, in the exchange was a gold mine. it generate a billion dollars in revenue in 2021. $14 million in profits. it was real. without the hedge fund there to screw it up, it would still be there. it's a casino. it was like, they took little slices of every transaction in crypto. >> and the other one is still around. coinbase, order. >> a bunch of them are still around. most money encrypted has been made by people who bought bitcoin when it was zero, or people have created these exchanges. so, there is this real thing, and the alleged crime kind of makes no sense. he blew up 40 billion dollar, 40 billion dollar business. for this kind of hedge fund on the side. that really, it was his legacy business. it's how we got into crypto in the first place. but they didn't baroness a serial relationship. there was a relationship, it wasn't necessary. he could've gotten rid of that thing. >> right, he did seem to take people's money in transferred over to the other. >> i think of him as a creature of modern finance. in any other aaron wall street, is probably not on wall street. but he's pulled out of m.i.t. by a high frequency trading firms that identify his mind as exactly the kind of mind that belongs in finance. and, you know, almost any other period of history, is like a high school physics teacher. here, he's imprinted by this. he becomes its identity, this trading thing. i think he couldn't let go of it. >> i saw some, there's some elon musk, obviously, -- >> if you do compare and contrast, they're different. >> they are different. there's something about a certain kind of mind that works like a key in a lock of a certain kind of sort of problem solving. the but is not great outside of that domain. >> right. >> maybe to just disastrous consequences. >> sam bankman-fried said, he said, until i made it to wall street, i don't think is really special at anything. i wasn't good at anything. nothing anything out suited for. he hits jane street, this is what i was put on earth to do. and then what he did, he saw that in crypto, there's an even bigger opportunity to do it in stocks and bonds and currencies. so, that's what gets him going in the first place. so, it is, so, you're watching something that only happened now. and it's phenomenal, someone becoming that rich that quickly. the way the whole society shapes itself around him. politics, media, -- >> there are scenes in here of what that looks like. the clustering around him, when i watch money comes in one person that quickly, truly gob smacking. it's called going infinite. it's on sale today. michael, always good to have. you >> they travel. me >> thank you for having me. we'll be right back. l be right back. i'm adding downy unstopables to my wash now. i'll be smelling fresh all day long. [sniffs] still fresh. still fresh! get 6 times longer-lasting freshness, plus odor protection with downy unstopables. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ get it with gurus. cargurus. if you love a little levity after this jam-packed newsday, you're in luck. with a new deal in place after the nearly five-month-long writers strike, late night shows are back in production, tonight, i will be a guest. along with the very hilarious tracy morgan, on the newest addition of late night with seth myers. the first guested show since the strike. we've discussed, of course, the chaos in the house of representatives. and i make an impassioned case for many vance. trust, me is persuasive. you can catch that tonight at 12:45 a.m. on an nbc. that is all in on this tuesday night, alex wagner tonight, starts right now, good, evening. alex >> i love the deli billing of

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