it might take several iterations of this going forward. >> republican infighting and dysfunction, that's the theme in washington, d.c. right now. congressional investigations reporter for the "washington post," jackie alemany, thank you. thanks to all of you for getting up way too early with us on this monday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. are you concerned about america's reputation on the world stage given the level of brinksmanship we have seen this year? >> based on the maga republican support, yes. based on what my administration is doing, no. >> president biden blaming maga republicans as the country falters and how the movement is endangering democracy. this as house speaker kevin mccarthy defied if right wing of his party. and partnered with democrats to keep congress running. now his job could be on the line. we'll discuss mccarthy's fate and who he may need to turn for help. plus, hours from now donald trump will appear in court in manhattan for the start of a civil trial scrutinizing his business practices. we'll break down what's at stake as the former president faces off against the judge who found him liable of massive fraud. and attorney general merrick garland gets emotional see the moment he choked up during an interview when asked about political violence and why he says it's his gravest concern. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's monday, october 2nd. hope you had a great weekend. with us we have the host of "way too early" and white house bureau chief at politico, jonathan lemire. u.s. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay is with us this morning. >> jonathan, we were showing those stills of trump with the california gop banner behind him. some of the most unhinged things he's ever said, and that is going a long way, he said at that event. >> yeah, no, he did. first of all, he used some of george carlin's forbidden words, the president working blue in california over the weekend. he reiterated chairman milley suggested he should be executed for treason. he talked again about his on going criminal trials to the point where as we'll get into later this morning, jack smith's team is re-upping its request for some what of a gagged orrer to keep trump from doing so. he again suggested the process of the coming election could be rigged and the only way he could lose. so it is more of the same rhetoric from donald trump in an overheated and perhaps, as you say, more unhinged way as pressure seems to be building, not just in all of these criminal cases, but this week he's scheduled to be appearing in a manhattan courtroom and may lose his entire business. >> well, and you know, mika, two specific things he did where he mocked and ridiculed paul pelosi and laughed about it, told jokes about it. and the sickness was, of course, that he's doing that mocking and ridiculing an 82-year-old man that had a break-in in his house and had a hammer slammed into his head and just the worst -- just a nightmare for any family. and the republican leader is mocking and ridiculing an 82-year-old man who was a victim of political violence. again, here is the sick part, really sick -- >> there's a lot of sick parts. >> there's a lot of sick parts. the sickest part is the crowd was laughing along to the joke. it used to be that you would tell political jokes, you know, self deprecating political jokes. then my daughter walked up to me and said blah blah blah. put a pin in the politician and everybody would laugh, oh, he's just a regular guy. he is one of us. here in donald trump's republican party, an 82-year-old man having his home broken into by just a deranged attacker, and then getting hit in the head repeatedly by a hammer, first of all a politician's punch line, but again, just showing how sick this maga crowd has gotten, they're laughing in the audience. on top of that, you know, he's talking about you got to do these mother blankers. he's talking -- i don't know if he thinks he's a rapper now, but again, this is -- and these are people that say, oh, we're up right christians. we support donald trump. and we're -- yeah, they support violence? they want their kids going around saying the things that donald trump says? i don't think so. since i talked about it so much, let's play it. >> together we will take on the ultra left wing liars, losers, creeps, perverts and freaks who are devouring the future of this state like a swarm of locusts. and we'll stand up to crazy nancy pelosi who ruined san francisco. how is her husband doing, by the way? anybody know. and she's against building a wall on our border even though she has a wall around her house, which obviously didn't do a very good job. what they've done is they've gone after opponents so that if you become president, or some other job, but if you become president and you don't like somebody or if somebody is beating you by 10, 15, or 20 points like we're doing with crooked joe biden, let's indictment the mother [ bleep ]. let's indictment him. >> the republican party, they're laughing. >> this is the front-runner. and the people in the audience think this is hilarious. and republicans in congress, many of them, still walking the walk for this guy. katty kay, it doesn't look very american. there are other countries this might look like. but there's a cult-like sense here and definitely an authoritarian one. >> look, donald trump is still the show. why i think something people underestimated back in 2016 when he ran was his ability to combine his celebrity entertainment quality with a smattering of politics and little bit of policy that the base of the republican party liked. but, key to it is this ability to shock the crowd, to make them feel he's saying things that they would like to say. but didn't feel they could. and it's a re-run of all the things he did in 2016. when he did in the 2016, that was the first time he had done it. now he's still doing the same thing. you listen to that it's a bit of a trump rally in 2016. less entertainment factor, perhap. little less humor, re-running the same stories. going back over even in that speech in california he went back other the 2020 was stolen election was rigged idea. and you wonder when that starts playing in front of a general election audience, which we're almost there. almost just running a general election at this point. how does it still work this time around? once the whole country is used to it and we're looking for the policies for the future and some inclination of what a second term would look like and there isn't very much of that. >> yeah. except, this time he's saying mother f-er right? and most importantly this time, he's now so desperate to up up the heat, up the temperature, up the calls for political violence that he's mocking and ridiculing an 82-year-old man getting beaten up and the audience is laughing along. >> no. that is something that he has sort of brought this party down. and they laugh at anything and everything just because they said something shocking and don't understand the ramifications, the violence even the country has seen. >> i wonder how they would feel if their 82-year-old parent or grandparent was assaulted by a hammer and was clinging on to life, and entire audiences were laughing about their 82-year-old grandfather getting bludgeoned almost to death with a hammer. again, we're in america. there's something mocking and ridiculing political violence of an opponent. this is so -- >> after we have seen it happen -- >> this is so different from everything else. and i must say -- >> for him. >> a journalist that weekend, but let's go back and talk about how sick, how sick this has become, journalists and people on the right -- remember the truth tellers. they're the truth tellers. they're going to tell you that joe biden is an idiot because he talks about politicians and abortion. they're the truth tellers. these are the people that have their podcasts and their newsletters. they're not going to be like the mainstream media. they're the truth tellers. these are the same truth tellers that are calling up whispering, you know there's more to it. this paul pelosi thing, they were gay lovers for years. paul pelosi was a gay lover. those are what the truth tellers were saying. by the way -- i remember, i remember getting the calls all weekend. the truth tellers, that's why a certain person on social media was a truth -- i'm saying, there's just this sickness that continues to spread. the so-called truth tellers, this cycle should tell the truth. oh, but let me tell you the truth about joe biden with. >> you mentioned this cycle, and that's the difference. last cycle you could argue, what are we dealing with. people maybe could be given a pass because he won't do that, they don't think he's serious. we have learned he will. and he has and america has been through a hell of a lot since donald trump was elected president and then lost the presidency and tried to steal it and started an insurrection many would argue that we saw violence in our capitol and people defecating in our capitol and people going to jail for years and yet you still support him. it's as if there are no rules for this man. >> no rules. >> except, in the court of law. >> except in the court of law. and again, these people -- you know, laughing at paul pelosi getting battered and abused. laughing and cheering when we talks about killing the chairman of the joints chief of staff. being with him every step of the way with violence on january the 6th. joe biden is right. this has been a real problem. >> so i mentioned the court of law. we're going to be back in 60 seconds, and we're going to talk about the rules that trump will be facing today -- >> today. >> in a manhattan court. >> starts today. >> along with all the other legal issues facing him. we'll be back in 60 seconds. fa. we'll be back in 60 seconds. whenever you're hungry, there's a deal on the subway app. buy one footlong, get one 50% off in the subway app today. now that's a deal worth celebrating. man, what are you doing?! get it before it's gone on the subway app. ♪♪ what was it like before viasat satellite internet? two words: not fun. log off. i've got homework! no way! it's still my turn! but now with viasat's new plans, we have plenty of internet. for everyone! learn more about our plans at viasat.com ♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." as i mentioned, that donald trump doesn't seem to face rules out in the real world, but in court, it's a whole different story. and this morning, the former president will be seated in a manhattan courtroom for the start of a civil fraud trial against him. the former president arrived at his one-time home of trump tower last night, a building that could soon be taken away from him pending the decision of judge arthur engoran. the jury found trump and his two oldest sons and his company liable of fraud in a case brought by new york attorney general latitia james. today, the punishment phase of the trial will begin where the former president could be fined $250 million and forced to give up all of his new yorktate properties. although he is on the witness list, for both the defense and the prosecution, it's unclear if trump will testify at the trial. this is massive. let's bring in nbc news legal analyst, andrew weissmann, the reporter on the investigation's desk at "the new york times," russ buttener joins us once again. once again, this is not if he's liable for fraud. this is how much he pays for it, consider ecto? >> that's exactly right. there's a few moving parts in this. there will be some kind of financial analysis that hasn't been explained yet, i don't think, about how you calculate the financial benefit that he obtained in doing this. whether that's the hundreds of millions in dollars in loans he obtained or just the the difference between the beneficial interest rate he received on those and lower rate. i don't think that's yet quite clear. the attorney general estimated that to be $250 million. that suggests it could go higher than that. >> oh my god. >> then we'll get to what the receiver will do in trying, i think, to maintain enough assets and the performance of those assets to make sure that he'll have access to pay whatever judgment is finally determined. >> andrew, also of course the possibility of him having to forfeit some of his properties in new york city as well as his business license for the state, what's the likelihood of that happening? >> i think it's very likely as mika said in many ways this trial is over. the judge has already ruled on the first of the claims against donald trump. a and his sons and his businesses. and so as russ said, it's really a question of what is the financial penalty in terms of the amount of money that will be disgorged from donald trump and his companies. but, having a receiver and his losing his licenses in new york is something the judge already concluded with respect to the first count. there are six other counts there that are being tried this week that involve needing to show donald trump's intent and also whether he damaged any insurance companies and any banks. that's the reason why i think latitia james has him on a witness list to call him because i think she's banking on the fact, no pun intended, that he will be a terrible witness. he obviously has shown that in the e. jean carroll case. there will be fireworks. but the big picture is he's already lost with huge financial consequences that this judge has imposed. >> russ, let's talk about that possibility. we know that donald trump is here in new york city. arrived last night. he has been called as a potential witness for both sides. his sons as well. walk us through what you expect him to do and if he were to take the stand, what would he say and would any lawyer suggest that's a good idea? >> i think it's always hazardous to try to guess what donald trump is going to do or what the boundaries will be on his behavior. i would suspect that he will show up for one or two days of this thing. and he'll make a big spectacle of arriving, make a big spectacle of departing, say something outrageous on the steps outside the courthouse. there won't be cameras inside the courtroom, so we won't see him there. he doesn't have to risk the kind of embarrassment of sitting at a table in a courtroom for long hours while attorneys lay him out in filth essentially. and then whether somebody -- obviously as you said, nobody would want him to testify that could not be productive for his case. but there are two ways i think this could go. i'm sure andrew could say more about this. if the prosecutors call him, if the attorney general's office calls him, he would most likely wisely take the fifth at virtually everything they asked. but that's very hard for donald trump to do. he did that somewhat during his deposition. he also said some outrageous things. or if we get to the end of this trial, which is expected to last several weeks. and it looks like they're going to get their clock on this, nothing much to lose, maybe they put him up there and let him take a shot at saying something that might turn the judge. that again seems ill advised and highly unlikely. >> yeah. whatever. so, andrew, a couple of questions -- >> could you imagine being in such a bad position that you say the only thing we have left is letting donald trump testify in the court of law? that's our last chance. >> he did so well during his defamation trial where he told e. jean carroll's attorney that e. jean carroll wasn't his type and that the attorney, that he was speaking to, wasn't his type either and snarled at her. i thought that was a special touch. >> that is also where he -- >> special touch. >> said throughout history -- people like him were able to do whatever he want fod do. >> it's just the truth. if you need to know anything about donald trump, it's important to watch that deposition. so andrew, couple of things. number one, you pointed out that it's already been concluded that a receiver has to be put in place. i want to understand what that means for donald trump's businesses right now. how does that actually work? how does that impact his actual business with other people? do people still want to do business with him if his company is in this situation. things like that. and then also if you could touch on the separate -- the federal case, election interference, jack smith, asking for a gag order. what does that mean? will it happen? >> sure. just one thing to note, if donald trump takes the stand and actually testifies, whether it's for latitia james or the defense, let's just take one example. he claimed that his own personal residence in trump tower was 30,000 square feet. even the defense lawyers before this judge conceded that was wrong. and the judge is like, how do you not know that it's 10,000 feet? so, and then use that to as the court found defraud insurance companies and banks by saying he has more assets than he has. and that's one of the reasons for facts like that which are just so plainly fictitious that the jung appointed a receiver. what that means is essentially the attorney general for nok in is in change of protecting new yorkers from what's called persistent fraudsteres. and that's what the court found that donald trump and his companies and his sons are. and so, the receiver debts to essentially make sure that he is not doing business in new york. you raised a really good question about whether that's already a huge financial penalty and sanction, whether that also leads to banks and insurance companies basically pulling the plug or not financing anymore is going to be a big open question. there are already really significant consequences because this is where donald trump's main businesses are. so huge factor for him in terps of his companies, in terms of all sorts of business interests that he has here that he no longer will be in control of. with respect to the gag order that is fully briefed before the d.c. federal judge. as you noted at the outset, donald trump does not seem to be deterred in any way, shape or form from the fact that he's making these outrageous comments, including about as you noted paul pelosi, which is beyond -- it's beyond shocking and there's no question that a federal judge, that is going to be a big deal because it shows such complete callousness and just complete disregard for the fact that he is out on bail not in one case but four criminal cases. there's a hearing that is scheduled in two weeks before the judge where the parties will address that issue and argue and she will make a ruling. >> wow. >> okay. >> nbc news legal analyst andrew weissmann and "new york times" reporter russ buettner. thank you boit for your insights this morning. coming up, the government shutdown was averted with little time to spare, but hardline republicans are not satisfied with the outcome. >> in fact, they held a press conference and were enraged. their tiktok hits actually went down considerably because government did its business. so, they weren't able to raise as much money. so now they going to try to overthrow kevin mccarthy and, of course, a tiktok nation awaits the shocking, shocking outcome. oh my god. the planned spontaneity killing me. plus, general mark milley delivered what many saw as a dig at donald trump. calling him a wanna be dictator. we'll play for you that moment ahead. 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nonsurgical options, today. i found mine at findahandspecialist.com. this is a bombas performance sock. for such a small item it performs big in so many ways. big on comfort. big on durability. big on breathability. bombas gives you big comfort for all your athletic pursuits. life, diabetes. each day is a unique blend of going, doing, and living. glucerna protein smart with 30 grams of protein to help keep you moving. uniquely designed with carbsteady to help manage blood sugar response. glucerna, bring on the day. unique among the world's army. unique among the world's military. we don't take an oath to a country. we don't take an oath to a tribe. we don't take an oath to a religion. we don't take on oath to a king or queen or tyrant or dictator. we don't take an oath to a wanna be dictator. we don't take an oath to an individual. we take an oath to the constitution. we take an oath to the idea that we're america and we're willing to die to protect it. >> that was part of general mark milley's retirement speech on friday in which he appeared to take a dig at donald trump, saying the job of the u.s. military is toroct the constitution. responding to trump's social media post a week earlier in which he suggested that milley be put to death for a routine phone call he made to leaders in china. lester holt asked general milley in an exclusive for "nightly news". >> you were making it known that the army, the military would play no role in determining the outcome of the election. why did you feel the need to say that? was that a specific concern you had? >> there was a lot of discussion in the open media about the u.s. military, what role we would play and so on. i wanted to make sure it was clear to the american people, adversaries, friends and allies oversea, to our own force, us waying the uniform, we have zero role in u.s. electoral politics. >> you assured your chinese counterpart that essentially the u.s. was okay. the u.s. was stable. is that a fair characterization. >> that's right. and secretary asked me to make a call and we did that. they were nervous about potential political instability in this country. secretary esper asked me to make sure they didn't make any military moves and let them know we're a stable country and we'll be just fine. >> which is, of course, what you want our leaders to do. you can watch that exclusive interview tonight on "nbc nightly news." that's exactly what generals and admirals do and what they have done throughout history to adversaries during difficult times. as far as the first part of it, saying we're not going to play a role in this election -- >> yeah. >> talked about telling the american people, our friends or adversaries, but most importantly -- and he had done this after june 1st. most importantly, he was sending a message to men and women up and down the ranks. men and women in uniform. this is not our job. we're not going to be pulled in to a coup. >> right. >> we protect and defend the constitution of the united states of america. that's why we put on the uniform. it was extraordinarily important, both things that he did. anybody that doesn't think it was, actually they supported the riots. >> right. >> i mean, if they were mad at him for sending that message to the military before january the 6th, they wanted the military to step in and be a part of the coup. >> and katty, i see it more than a dig, a warning to call him a wanna be dictator. >> yeah. look, the whole thing has got so messed up in donald trump's politics and revenge at this point of lashing out at milley and now over the weekend esper calling esper is woke fool because he said to milley, yes, you should do this. we went through a period where there was not communication between the highest levels between the pentagon and the chinese military and awful lot of frustration in washington they weren't having those lines of communication open because there was worries there could be some kind of mistake out in the south china sea, something could go wrong and that could lead to con a conflict and you need those regular communications. you need to call out your counterpart in a stressful situation, look, this is what you need to be concerned about. this is what you don't need to be concerned about. that's exactly what milley was doing. trump supporters in iowa, and this is what's alarming is trump says it, he should be put to death or he should be executed. and now you got trump supporters in iowa telling nbc news that they agree with that statement. it only takes one person with a vicious motive and a gun in their hand and the decision to do something crazy to put into action trump's words. and you're starting to see it filter down from trump down through his supporters at his rallies to people who believe what he says. >> perfect transition to congressional investigations reporter for the "washington post" jackie alemany. we saw this with january 6th and it filtered down the same way and people ended up in washington, d.c. and they stormed the capitol. and many are serving time. >> yeah, mika, that's exactly right. but, nevertheless, this rhetoric has continued. that's why you have seen jack smith now ask again for a gag order on trump as really the past two weeks from threats to mark milley, mike pence, judge tanya chutkan, even attempts to buy a firearm in south carolina during a campaign visit which his campaign then issued a clarification saying that he actually did not try to -- that he actually didn't go through with that purchase shows his continued defiance for obviously our political norms the safety of other people but also the law. we'll see you know, whether or not smith is actually able to get this gag order this time around. but, all of these -- this confluence of factors does seem to bode well for him. >> jackie, all the papers on saturday morning were talking about the coming republican shutdown, about midway through the morning or maybe middle of the day all the breaking news banners saying that, in fact, it had been averted. what happened? how did we go from a pending government shutdown to the ice breaking and suddenly, boom, it was over. >> it was a really mind boggling turn of events to watch on saturday. and it all happened because mccarthy eventually broke the unwritten rule of his speakership that we have all been following which is do not cooperate with democrats which he ultimately did. he decided after many attempts to give in to hard line right republicans request to balance the budget and make a lot of domestic cuts along with foreign cuts, cuts to ukraine aid, he wasn't able to get enough votes for those ultimately. he finally just hours before the the deadline decided to put forward a clean continuing resolution that is really a 45-day agreement to maintain 2023 spending levels, but, it did lack the funding for ukraine. to continue to sport our allies and the vast resources that they need to fight -- to continue to fight this war with our support. mccarthy, though, in doing so, in making this agreement which essentially all other government including republicans agreed to especially republicans in the senate, has now put his speakership on the line. so this was the redline for matt gaetz. although it did seem like there was this core group of hardline republicans who all along had been ready to just directly move to ousting speaker mccarthy. so we're expecting a motion to vacate brought to the house floor by matt gaetz as soon as this morning that then triggers this 48-hour period where there's going to be a snap vote. mccarthy is then potentially going to have to rely on democrats yet again. it requires five republicans to actually remove him. that would mean either getting democrats to just vote present or getting democrats to support him. it will be a long 45 days for him. >> very long 45 days. this is not washington dysfunction. this is republican dysfunction. this is gop on gop. but you mentioned ukraine. let's go a little further on that. we know that broadly in the building behind you support for ukraine is still pretty popular among democrats and republicans. it's a minority view of the the gop. president biden in his remarks yesterday hinted that the white house still believes that mccarthy is going to come through for them with some sort of ukraine funding. although mccarthy himself over the weekend was trying to tie it to border security. walk us how this happens in the next 45 days or so. will there be a separate spending bill or be part of the next cr and the 45-day mark. >> that is the key question, jonathan. as you said, mccarthy on "face the nation" yesterday tried to tie something that republicans are set on with what democrats insisted on which is border security with ukraine funding. seems like they're going on the path where there will be some sort of stand alone measure that ties these two together that would be voted on. it's going to be a very fine line. as we saw, ukraine funding already failed miserably in the house when there was a vote taken last week or the week before last week. there is growing momentum amongst republicans and not just those hardliners but people in vulnerable districts who are hearing this call amongst their constituents for this message that has sunk in, which is why are we spending more money in ukraine than we are on constituents in the u.s. of course that's not entirely factually accurate. but it is something that we have seen sort of trickle up from grass roots, conservative media to now being this central rallying cry for a lot of grass roots conservatives in the house. but, again, this is not something that mccarthy is going to be able to get through lightly. although he did make a promise to the white house. and as you saw the senate on saturday, senator michael bennett insisted on a public pledge before the senate took a vote that they would get something done. >> you know, katty kay, we talk about how these extremists are standing in the way of getting work done in washington. we talk about regular order and everything else. i hope the white house doesn't dismiss out of hand this sort of trade off which is ukraine funding and border security funding going way up. the reason i say that is that not only helps republicans getting republicans on board, that's going to help a lot of democrats as well in districts. it will help republicans and democrats in swing districts because i think a lot of americans, republicans, democrats, independents will say, we're spending all this money on ukraine and yet you look at what's happening at the southern border, both are important. we should do both. let's wrap it all up in a bill. and that way f you're looking at it politically, like joe biden, you also put yourself in a position where if gop extremists vote against that bill, they're voting against, say, the biggest funding increase in border security in american history. let them try to justify that. >> so funny. i was driving listening to mccarthy with my husband in the car. he was asking that question. why are they tying the border to ukraine. he is keen on ukraine funding. it makes political sense. allows members to go back to their districts and puncture the argument that the white house is not looking at americans at home but is looking after ukrainians on the other side of the atlantic. i mean, look, the counter is that there will always be those in the republican party it seems at the moment. given the changes that this republican party is, there would always be those who would find some reason not to want to support ukraine whether the border or something else or not spending enough on something else back in the states. but, this is such a potent issue at the moment with these images of people coming across and clearly so many people coming across. camping out in hotels in new york city. that i think it is a way to help, as you say, not just to help republicans but to help democrats as well. >> well, yeah, and the timing, i'm sure you hear on the hill, the timing is perfect. this is where you take the opportunity that is before you, okay, we'll compromise with you while doing something that's good for everybody. the white house just sort of sticks their feet in cement, no, we're not going to do that. i think they're missing a great opportunity here. talk about the rising pressure not just in conservative districts but all districts about the illegal immigration crisis, whether you're talking about on the border in texas, california or new york city. >> yeah, joe. although this idea is sounding a bit too rational for this house gop conference that has not been governed by rationality in any way. although this weekend would ultimately force mccarthy's -- would ultimately force house democrats and house republican hands was putting forth a bill that some democrats, especially ones in vulnerable districts, just couldn't vote against, despite the reluctance to cooperate with mccarthy. there is this -- this is a good patchwork solution here, but it does require everything sort of falling perfectly into place. also requires mccarthy to continue to put his job as speaker, continuing the government to function, funding the government which is really the number one job that congressional house lawmakers have, they are aappropriators as mandated in the constitution first and foremost, he put forward the speakership and his desire to keep the job before everything else. we'll see which ultimately he decides to put first. >> all right, thank you so much. and i tell you, if i were joe biden, if i were advising joe biden, listen, you have an unbelievable opportunity here. you increase funding for ukraine. you continue the funding there, but you don't do a halfway measure on the border. this is an unprecedented crisis on the border. that calls for unprecedented action. some people in this space is not going to like it. okay. well, that's what compromise is. lyndon johnson, it's like, i want 51 votes. if we got 65, 68 votes then i didn't push the compromise enough. i want 51 vote which is means i offended people on both sides of the extreme and we got everything in there we could possibly get in there. that's what joe biden needs to do here. we're always hearing, these people keep streaming across the border because we don't have enough border agents, judges, this or that. well, there aren't resources to take care of this. and i'm sorry, but going around on the campaign trail and talking about what's happening in central america, that not going to help anybody. there's a crisis at the border right now that has to be taken care of first. >> it will take democrats and republicans to do that. >> it will take democrats and republicans to do it. you have a great opportunity to do it here. and these wholistic problems, right, other countries, reason why they're coming up here, well, that is long-term. you know it's long-term. that doesn't work on the campaign trail. actually give people the resources they need on the border. give them the judges. give them the security. give everybody what they need, the border security people, and this is a great opportunity to do it. don't listen to the extremes on both sides. do what is the right thing. i will say, if you do what the right thing is, to bring some order to the border, he actually any time donald trump brings up the border, he goes, wait, what are you talking about. i funded the border more than you ever did. >> right. >> i spent more money on the border than you ever did with your imaginary wall you had in your mind and you said you were going to build this great, beautiful gold wall with one door the middle of it. >> climb right over. >> you never did it. you never did it. republicans said it was a stupid idea when they were in charge of washington, d.c. you never did it, donald. i did. this is what i did. then you just start ticking down the list of it and i'll tell you, the american people want that. our border agents need that and it's a win/win. >> and an opportunity to hold the republicans accountable for their part of this process. or, to work with them. we'll see. >> by the way, if the republicans vote no on that -- >> that's on them. >> good luck defending that in the swing districts. coming up, we have a healthy dose of sports. taylor swift takes on the jets. the mlb playoffs are set. and ryder cup, rory mcilroy gets very angry with a caddy. what's that about? espn's pablo torre has insights on that. >> we have a new rule. any time he wants to talk, he's got to hold his hand up in a certain way. >> oh, yeah. a p, a v. >> how does he do a p? i don't know. we'll be right back with pablo. o o a wireless utopia. the new titanium iphone 15 pro. on us, with no trade in needed. infinitely better. the first time you made a sale online with godaddy was also the first time you heard of a town named dinosaur, colorado. we just got an order from dinosaur, colorado. start an easy to build, powerful website for free with a partner that always puts you first. start for free at godaddy.com ♪♪ a beautiful shot. 6:50 a.m. over midtown manhattan. the sun is coming up. we have had so much rain, the sun is nice to see. and let's talk about week four of the nfl season. almost in the books. let's start with last night's game, just across the river in new jersey, between the new york jets and the kansas city chiefs, where patrick mahomes and the defending champions got out to an early lead, thanks in part to this touchdown, first quarter touchdown pass, to tight end noah gray. not the tight end that taylor swift was there to see, but the points count all the same. but embattled jet's quarterback zach wilson dragged his team closer in the very next quarter. finding his man in the end zone to launch the jets into a one-score game. the game was surprisingly competitive. fast forward to the fourth quarter. quarterback patrick mahomes, you'll see him here dancing, dancing, dancing, still dancing. now running and jet's fans pointing to a blatant hold call that was missed there that allowed mahomes to scamper for a first down. then this play, look like mahomes gets picked off by jet's corner back sauce gardner only to have this called back because of a holding call. this one they called on sauce gardner. the int is wiped away. two calls go against the jets. joe, chiefs win, 23-20. kind of an ugly win for them. plenty of taylor swift cut aways all the same. for the jets, zach wilson showed them something. >> seriously jets fans and liverpool fans should talk to each other. my god, talk about some horrific, horrific officiating. by the way, liverpool, i know everybody tunes in to say, i wonder what happened with liverpool this weekend, absolutely, they fired the var guy. liverpool, one bad call after another. it's why they lost the match. everybody will say that. >> know you the same, joe, don't like blaming officiating. this is one where you can blame the officiating. there was a series of bad calls that all went against liverpool. they played tottenham, bogus red card. the league had to put out a statement acknowledging the call was wrong, apologizing to liverpool and firing the var official. of course none of that changed the final score. >> i never blame the refs. if you're close enough you're losing from calls from refs, that's the way it goes. in this case, when the league blames the refs, it's okay. you can blame the refs. that's what my good friend who i went to school pablotorre. who of course, went to school with everybody. pablo -- >> yeah. >> went to school with vivek. >> when he raised his hand in class would do a v. >> vivek -- i went to a moral philosophy lecture, attended it with vivek. it was called justice. and it's where i first got the sense that, oh, this guy is going to run for president because he would raise his hand in the shape of a v as if he was shining his own bat signal for his own terrible takes as i like to say. yeah, i've been making jokes about this guy, the shameless, the truly relentless vivek ramaswamy for 20 years, guys. that is not a joke. i've been saying that privately. now i say to america and good morning, america, by the way. >> good morning. >> good morning. >> we have so much to talk about. we can talk about taylor swift. we can talk about the fact that zach wilson actually did much better. look at the quarterback rating. did much better than patrick mahomes. really not a close call if you look at the quarterback rating. it's kind of crazy, huh? >> it's crazy to think about what counts as a moral victory? zach wilson the guy we have spending weeks all of us laughing at? does it count when that guy looks vaguely competent? because that's what we got last night. i just want to point out -- >> that's what i aim for by the way. >> sets the bar very low. i want to point out that just that, the taylor swift of this, i was just marveling here at the table with john. i don't think there is a mono culture bigger than taylor swift at this point. and what's crazy about this to me is that the nfl used to be the number one overall mono culture as a sports guy. now we see, oh, why isn't the s.e.c. blocking this merger of monopolies? like it's crazy to me that here you have the nfl bending the knee to taylor swift who has earned all of the largess, all the industrial complex around her, but it's remarkable how this continues to go really. >> well, it's remarkable -- i love how my kids and i were talking about it at the table. and it's really -- kind of like, you know, nobody can really outshine anybody. taylor is the biggest star in the world at the same time if you're kelce, you know, you won some super bowls and hundreds of millions of people have seen you play football and know who you are. so this is what we would say in the baptist church, a relationship that is evenly yolked. so on to football. on to more football. i want to talk about two quarterbacks that used to play in ohio that i've just been fascinated by. joe burrow, of course, and our friend down in tampa bay. let's start in tampa bay. i have to tell you this baker thing, i'm -- i -- he's really good on commercials. i'm rooting for him. >> you're in. >> i'm in. >> it's crazy to me. all things you talked about that joe burrow would be looking like he is the version of baker we made fun of. he has not won. he looks sad. he looks despondent. he is blown out by the titans in this way. and it's jarring to me. it really is. joe burrow is a super bowl contender, one of the best quarterbacks in the nfl allegedly. now you're wondering is it the leg, is it the knee? what is wrong with joe. you mention baker mayfield, that dude looks like a leader of men. that dude feels to borrow your religious metaphor, leading a call in response with crowds on sundays. that's the guy with the charisma, leading the revival of the tampa bay buccaneers. i did not see that come. i did not prophesy that to torture the metaphor. >> now let's move to a game that really shows how crazy the nfl is week to week to week to week. you have the bills get by the jets. i mean, and they haven't looked that great this year. i'm thinking, man, they had a great year in '21, but they just aren't going to rise up again. and these dolphins, my god, the '72 dolphins, go undefeated and suddenly, boom, the bills lack like the giant killers. >> we saw dolphins, as you said, not just remind people of the '72 dolphins but literally drop 72 points on the broncoss here you see them go to buffalo and buffalo reminds people we are also good at this and also what you are doing is unsustainable. so here is josh allen, one of the true young stars in the league go from a guy that again two weeks ago laughing at, looked like the cinderella situation of, hey, now he is back to the pumpkin, the carriage ride is over. instead they're blowing out the dolphins. every week there's a new story line in development, right? used to be the patriots for 30 years, dolphins and bills again. buffalo, i'm sorry for underestimating you and your wings. truly. >> i did. i think a lot of us did. i thought last week the dolphins cracked the code. they have such great players. two-step drop, quick release by tua. it looked unbeatable. the bills crushed them. they got penetration over and over again, crashing through the offensive line. and i'll tell you what, if i'm a dolphins fan, i'm freaking out every time i see tua get plastered. like he was getting hit in ways they can't afford him to get hit week in and week out. he won't make to the end of the season. >> that's the story line that covers all year. so that is a real concern. let's stay in the afc east, if we must. >> are we doing this? >> we have to do this. patriots went to dallas yesterday and were humiliated. >> i've been worried about you. >> many people in my life who are. i did win a fantasy baseball title this weekend. >> loser. >> thanks, joe. >> patriots got crushed. matt jones was terrible. and i think -- i've been saying this for a few weeks now, if this season were to go off the rails and looks like it's about to, this would be the first time that bill belichick is on the hot seat and frankly he deserves it. >> this is the hairsy i've been waiting out. jonathan lemire, greatest coach of all time, still is, mac jones he benched him in this game. it wasn't because of how he played. really? then why else was he sitting at bailey zappe. >> why do you bench him? it's because of course he was unbelievably terrible. what belichick is trying to do, protect the meager remains of an ego, mack jones and his own because the tom brady thing, i don't want to make it all about tom brady, i have to imagine that for you there is in the back of your mind this image of, i don't know, tom brady texting bill bell check at 2:00 a.m. last night, hey, how is it going? we were wondering is it the coach, the quarterback? we saw tom brady win a super bowl in tampa. we have seen bill belichick have to lie about mack jones to make everybody feel better. >> yeah. i have to tell you at alabama, i watched a lot of great quarterbacks go through alabama. and i really maybe it won't be in new england, but mack jones, he was cool in the pocket. >> he was in college, yes. >> nick saban would say this is a guy that was built for the nfl. it's not working right now. last year we saw it as offensive coordinator. no great excuses this year. >> that's right. >> they're not linking up right now. mack jones could be a good, maybe not a great, but a good nfl quarterback. let's talk golf ryder cup. now let's talk baseball. the city of chicago is going to be weeping, not because of this putt, but the cubs just totally blew it. the worst for them, there is no bartman to blame. so you have two -- we really have two story lines. the marlins made it in. you have the marlins and they were fighting it out with the cubs. but seattle, who had a great second half of the season got boxed out by the astros. >> yeah. i'll start with seattle because seattle has this julio rodriguez. this kid is the next great thing. when you don't get your stars into the post season you don't maximize the spral of the talent that baseball has. they were in the post season last year. they snapped an historic streak of utility and now they're back to it. that is a bummer. and then just the cubs real quick. you mentioned, if they had to watch not just the marlins but the braves. the atlanta braves, 40 home runs, 70 steals. >> come on! >> stop the game to celebrate against the cubs. >> that's not legal. that's not legal. >> no. >> put him in the hall of fame right now. it's crazy. >> okay. >> can we finish on a somber note. and jonathan, jump in on this. >> yes, yes, yes. >> there's just not a better guy than tim wakefield. what a shock for all of us who not only loved the red sox, but -- >> 57 years old. >> loved tim so much. >> yeah. tim wakefield, a real boston icon. he had become in recent years -- he spent more than a decade there with the red sox. he was a member of both the 2004 and 2007 world series teams. was on the mound when the three playoffs ended. it was that much sweeter that he played a big role in the historic comeback the following year. more than what he did on the field, what he did off the field, such a champion for community causes, working with the jimmy fund, a variety of organizations in new england. he had become a broadcaster for nesn, the red sox local affiliates. this diagnosis was so tragic and so sudden. pablo, it is a really tough day. 57 years old. a great player but a better person. >> i grew up a yankees fan. i could only respect tim wakefield. you'll see in the photos the way he held the ball. he was a knuckle baller, had the greatest run of knuckle balling in the post season runs you mentioned. the way this hit us. you know, baseball is both historic institution with many, many names and faces that we remember over the years, but tim wakefield, this is one of those jarring ones that is now just gone too soon. >> yeah. mika, mike barnicle sent me a article from "the times" in 2005. after the red sox pulled off the miracle to end all miracles in 2004, the first person to where he called was tim wakefield because he loved and respected so hutch as a baseball player. he congratulated him. joe tory felt about tim wakefield, anybody who follows major league baseball did, just a great guy. >> a big lost. host of pablo torre finds out. we appreciate you coming on mondays. we love having you. >> thanks, guys. six minutes past the top of the hour and this morning donald trump will be seated in a manhattan courtroom for the start of a civil fraud trial against him. it's the penalty part. how much he needs to pay. he's already been found liable. the former president arrived at his one-time home of trump tower last night. a building that could soon be taken away from him pending the decision of judge arthur engoran. he was found liable of fraud in a case brought by new york attorney general latitia james. the decision was made in light of the fact that the judge felt a trial wasn't necessary the evidence was so obvious. today, the punishment phase of the trial will begin where the former president could be fined $250 million. and forced to give up all of his new york state properties. joining us from outside the courthouse is former lit gator and msnbc legal analyst lisa ruben. lisa, will we see trump taking the stand in this? and what do woe expect today? >> i do expect, mika, we will eventually see trump taking the stand. i don't think that will happen today oempb this week. today will be opening statements from both sides. a gentleman named kevin wallace is expected to present for the attorney general's office. and of course, for former president trump, the $3 million man from florida now become involved in this case, if and when trump does testify it will be because likely the attorney general called him as a witness and we will likely see him toward the end of the not the beginning mika. >> couple of questions, number one, et appears the judge came to his decision amidst a lot of frustration because of the trump team trying to slow things down, trying to really bog down the entire process. do you think the judge will make any moves about process moving forward going faster. that's number one. and also this receiver that's been put in place. what do you think the initial right now today consequences on trump's empire will be, if any? >> well, let's start with the consequences for trump's empire because many read last week's decision as a sign that the trump empire will ultimately be desolved. mika, that's not a dissuggestion that the judge made yet. at friday's pretrial conference he emphasized to the parties that that's not something he e's prepared to decide yet. however, he has asked the parties to recommend a receiver, someone who could oversee what is to happen to the trump organization and its component parts at the penalty stage of this. as you mentioned in the opening, the attorney general is seeking at least $250 million in when you seek not necessarily as damages but you seek to disgorge from someone all of the ill-gotten profits that they got through their persistent fraud or illegality. >> right. what is a receiver? i guess i should start there. what does that person do? and how might that impact anybody doing business with trump umpire? >> well, trump already we have seen the judge order the cancellation of his business certificates in new york. that's literally saying you can't do business under a false name. you can't hang out as a shingle. you can't function as retail businesses for example anymore. but a receiver, think about a receiver as almost a temporary ceo. somebody who stands in the shoes of management to try and unwind a business, whether it's all of its liabilities, taking account of its assets. for right now we know the judge wants someone called an independent monitor to oversee the on going operation of the trump organization before he determines whether or not disillusion will be necessary but it's conceivable mika we will get to a point where he will decide because trump and his adult children and folks like allen weisselberg and the other defendants can't oversee the organization of the trump organization, it will have to be dismantled and its pieces will have to be sold. that hasn't been determined yet, but it remains a very real possibility for donald trump and the trump organization as of this morning as trial approaches. >> former lit gator, lisa ruben. we'll be watching what happens today. let's bring in now the editor of the new yorker, david remnick and former executive ed tor of the "washington post," marty barren, the author of a new book entitled "collision of power, trump, bezos and "washington post."" and katty kay is still with us. >> where to begin. >> i want to start with what i do it seems every six months i go back and read back to you some of the words you said on election night. >> oh, no. >> no, no, on election night after donald trump won you you were at a viewing party and got your laptop and went into the kitchen. i want to read some of these words that showed the president of the united states talking about executing chairman of the joints chiefs of staff, banning entire tv networks and celebrating the brutal assault of paul pelosi. you said on election night, the election of donald trump to presidency is nothing less than a tragedy to the american public, and forces at home or abroad of nativism, authoritarianism, misogamy and racism. you said there are inevitably miseries to come and increasingly supreme court and emboldened right wing congress, president disdain for women and minorities. say nothing of simple decency has repeatedly demonstrated. missing from there, open call for violent, what i am comfortable saying is form of fascism. and i just wonder as we look back at the words and look back at the warnings if maybe they're understated to what we may face in a second trump term. >> part of the things that was missing from that prediction or analysis you call it. a couple things, one is the potential criminal any of the president himself. i don't think we could anticipate what's happening now in new york or the other many criminal cases he's facing. maybe more tragic, i don't know that we could have anticipated that if all these things came about and made themselves evident, a huge part of the country would stay with him. to me that might be the most difficult thing to face. i don't know how you go about saying it. certainly he is way ahead in the republican race. these are votes know perfectly well what trump is capable of, what he's been charged with how he speaks, who he is. has there ever been a more known president in a sense than donald trump, a more krant parent one in some sense. yet he is ahead by so many points in the republican nomination. joe biden is signaling that he's the nominee of the democratic party. does not face an easy race by any stretch of the imagination. and that to me is i could not anticipate. it would be so deep and so profound. >> so deep and so profound. that even this weekend when he was talking about an 82, 83-year-old man being bludgeoned by a hammer, almost killed or when he called some people who take american flags and budgen cops with those american flags and four die, according to their family, as a result of the assault on the capitol that he still celebrates those people as, quote, political prisoners. he says these things and you have americans cheering him joint. >> if vladimir putin had said maybe i should assassinate or someone should assassinate the leader of the russian army, woib in a rup roar about further evidence of the bloody minded authoritarianism of vladimir putin which of course is absolutely true, to have the former president of the united states and potential new president of the united states in 2024 speak that way and barely registers. it barely registers as a news story. >> it did not get mentioned in the debate that day, the night after. by even the moderators. >> yeah. are. >> i ask you and i'm sure you go into much of this during your book, but i was always struck by what you said and thought it was brilliant guidance sort of a north star for people working at "the washington post," everyday they were not going to war. they were going to work. talk about how you balance that with what is clearly -- i wouldn't say what seems to be clearly, what is clearly a threat to the future of american democracy in the form of donald trump. a guy who has said that he is going to arrest democrats after he gets elected. that he wants to try the chairman of joint chiefs for treason and yanking media outlets off the air that disagree with him. >> right. well, i think obviously there are huge threats to american democracy right now coming out of the the trump campaign and other elements in this country. and i think that means we as journalists have to do our jobs and tell people what's likely ahead in a second trump administration. who are the people he is going to appoint to run the major agencies. what are the kinds of policies he hopes to implement. we need to do our reporting and show people what a second trump administration would actually look like. >> marty, you have a piece in the atlantic. it's adapted from your book and you write in part, quote, a month into trump's presidency, the post had a fixed democracy diesn darkness. under its name plate on the printed newspaper. as the newspaper's owner jeff bezos envisioned , this was not a slogan but a mission statement. the phrase stuck with readers, saw it perfect for the trump era, even if that was not its intent. five months after its inauguration, president trump invited us to dinner. trump did almost all the talking. he let louis on a long list of perceived eneies and slights. atop them all was the press and atop the press was the post. trump would be the one to call bezos' cell phone the next morning urging him to get the. at the aim was to get at the facts no matter the obstacles. trump and his allies put i our way. i believe that responsible journalists shod guided by fundamental principles. we must support and defend demoacy. we must be more impressed by what we don't know than by what we know or think we know. so, take it a step further and i want to know where you think this goes with the trump presidency and everything we have been talking about and potential presidency, everything we have been talking over the past two hours where it appears republicans and trump republicans there is nothing that will shock them into thinking, my gosh, this man is trying to kill our democracy. >> right. well, look, a good segment of the population that won't believe anything we write. still people among the public who will take a look at the evidence. i think our job as journalists to provide that evidence, to do that reporting, to dig deeper, look behind the curtain and beneath the surface. that's what we have an obligation to do. that's the mission of journalists in this country. that was the idea behind the first amendment as james madison wrote to freely examine public characters and measures. the public characters being our poll sigs makers, the people who influenced policies and the measures of the policies they hope to implement. that's our job to really take a look at that. i think the press plays an incredibly important role in revealing to the public what would occur in a second trump administration and second biden administration. that's our job as well. we need to be independence. we need to be objective how we do this but we should be unflinching telling the public what we learned. >> i had qualms watching the coverage of things like trump coming to be arraigned in new york and the television cameras sitting on the plane for hours. this is total domination of the airways. we're loving this. everyone is on us. do you think the press learned how to cover trump in a way that would reach those people who are still open to, you know, hearing the evidence, having the facts laid out for them and making up their own minds, however many there are left in the country, but do you think between 2016 and now, 2023, a better job is being done or not necessarily? >> i think in degree. i think that wi saw a part of the drama at certain other cable network a lot of criticism and self criticism, i'm talking about cnn, why go around it. that there was -- they enjoyed great ratings from this, of focussing on rallies that went on for hours and hours an wasn't mediated very well by explanation and context. and i think there was a lot of soul searching i'm sure here and at other networks, i hope there was. so there's a change in degree. but there's also the dilemma of his popularity. you can't wish it away. i think marty, he makes really clear in his really excellent book, that journalists have to do their jobs with incredible concentration and with incredible penetration and integrity and fairness. that's the word i use over objectivity but fairness and things are going to come out the way they come out. i don't think "the washington post," the new yorker or "the new york times" or any of the like can be so decisive other than the investigation of fact, the discovery of things we don't know and putting things in their context and commentary. that is already an enormous job. and unfortunately or not, these elections come down to very narrow -- just a small number of stat states, just a few number of tates. maybe not directly but through other media too. so marty, a journalism question, everybody is grappling with. david just mentioned you can't deny his popularity, you can't deny he is the potential nominee, front-runner. what suggestion do you have guidance, opinions about interviewing trump at this point? w well, look, i think the interviews have to come really prepared. i think people have to be there to contradict him when he utters falsehoods which he does on a regular basis. but i think beyond that, i'm not sure we need to give him these mr. platforms for interviews. what we really need to do is investigate what it is he intends to do if he were to become president. i think it's more important that we do the reporting rather than just interviewing donald trump. where he can actually control the conversation which he does. so i wish we would do more of that. i wish we would stalk about what a second trump administration would do, who is he likely to appoint. a second trump administration clearly would be a vengeance tour. and what would he do to the justice department? what would he endeavor to do with the courts? in a lot of different arenas. that's what we aukt to spend our time on is digging into that, rather than saying let's interview donald trump. i remember before 2016, before election day, even published a huge piece in the new yorker. nobody thought he would be president. we had a huge piece, what would happen if he became president. trump standing in the oval office. just that image shook up a lot of readers. shook up a lot of new yorker readers. did it reach everybody in the country? no, it did not. but we have to go at it over and over again with fact. also a moral imagination, too. >> marty, let me get your opinion as to how your assessment is how the media has been covering current president, president biden. a lot of focus on his age. polls suggest that is a big concern. white house howells about that any time any of us mentions that. beyond that, his record, his bid for second term, the fact that he's running against donald trump who we just talked about at great length. how would you assess how we're doing there? >> i would say we've done a so-so job. not a great job, not a poor job. i think, for example, age is a real issue but it's an issue for donald trump as well. there are other issues for donald trump that we need to focus on. we need to look whereat biden succeeded and where he hasn't succeeded. but in other areas he hasn't done so well. people can point to afghanistan, can point to the border. areas where there's more work to be done, for sure. so i would say we've done an okay job but i think we can do a lot better. >> i want to talk to both of you guys about attacks on the media. but first, frame it by talking about -- reminds me of this issue reminds me a bit of a george orwell essay written around '41 or '42 where he was talking about democracy and all of its flaws. and he was quoting what both communists and fascists were saying about democracy flaws and/orwell was agreeing with every last one. you're sitting there saying wait a second, what is he getting to? and then at the end he says, yet, when the first shot was fired and they ran straight to britain or the united states. it reminds me of these people who have gotten wealthy off of attacking the so-called mainstream media the dominant media with their podcasts or their newsletters. "the new york times" the "washington post," the new yorker will get a thousand things right. they'll get one story wrong. and that one story will be held up to say, you should be looking at the epic times and a website's run by chinese religious cults instead of, you know, "the wall street journal" or "the new york times" or the -- >> "the washington post." >> new yorker. what is your response to that? how do we get the perspective about all of the great work that these news organizations get and how like those communists and fascists attacking britain and the united states and the time of war, how do we put it in proper perspective? >> well, i think you're totally right about that. i think we do so many stories and they're validated. they're validated immediately or over a longer period of time and people forget about that. it's important that people recognize all of the great work that's done. even donald trump, who calls us fake news, if there's a story that he thinks could be useful to him "the new york times" or "washington post." all of a sudden he is setting aside this idea of fake news. and he points to -- because he knows -- because he kws that these institutions have a lot of credibility and that's why he pots to them when there's a storyha might actually support something that he says. so, i think we have to -- how do we breakthrough to people? i think it's important that we cover the entire country. i think it's important that people throughout the country see that we're actually getting out there, talking to them, understanding what their concerns r what their hopes are, frustrations are. we shouldn't live in our own bubble. we need to hear what people sea. we need to listen. we need to show we care and we do care but we need to do a better job. >> david, what do you think? >> i think part of being democratic, small d and democratic experience is to say to criticism, bring it on. criticism of "washington post," new yorker, whatever it is, bring it on. but some of what we're talking about here is not criticism. we're talking about alternative yun forces, fiction is fact. that's become an industry and politics and shaped marly the republican party when i watched the republican debate the other night, there was no criticism of donald trump other than he wasn't there. there was vilification of the media over and over again as an article of faith. is that healthy for democracy? it's not. and it's not just an american problem now. it's a global problem, jonathan. we're living in a period in which demock circumstance democratic principles and institutions have been proven to be fragile and we're in a war for them. we're in war for them and journalists have their role to play as marty described, the new yorker and "washington post" are different in certain ways. but i think they are devoted to and sounds very high minded and it's true the discovery of the truth, of the truth. >> uh-huh. and finally, david, just four days away from the start of one of the most talked about festivals in new york city the new yorker festival kicks off this friday. and it will include a mix of conversations, panel discussions, performances and screenings, as always, this year's festival as star-studded lineup. including conversations with access, film maker, spike lee, ballerina misty copeland and writer judy bloom and many, many more. we look forward to that. thank you so much for being on this morning, david, as well as you, marty barren, thank you as well. marty's new book is entitled "collision of power, trump, bezos and "the washington post." still ahead on "morning joe," house speaker kevin mccarthy faces a major test of his leadership after he works with democrats to keep the government running. what adam schiff things about the fate of the speaker's job. president biden says he's sick and tired of their brinksmanship. why he is endangering democracy. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. watching "" we'll be right back. subway refreshed everything. and now, they're slicing their deli meats fresh. that's why the new subway series subs are proffered by this qb. and proffered by his old backup qb. and if we proffer it, we know you'll proffer it too. have you been behind me this whole time? yep. 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both in terms of ukraine funding, conspicuously missing from this agreement but also whether you think mccarthy can hold on his leadership. >> you can count on him to do the right thing after he's tried everything else. this is where we were on saturday. he tried bringing up these meaningless bills just to placate to right wing of his conference. he tried initiating an impeachment proceeding thinking that would bring him the support of the crazy right wing of his conference. none of it was working. saturday, we were coming closer and closer to a shutdown, he decided okay now it's time to do something right and do something in a bipartisan way. the senate had a bill that would have passed in the house overwhelmingly but he wouldn't bring that up. he brought this up. the principle difference was the exclusion of ukraine funding, as you say. and that is deeply problematic. we're going to be working hard to restore that funding. we need to support ukraine and help that country defend itself against the russian invaders. i think there will either be a stand alone bill or be part of the new resolution and, of course, the bill will we passed on saturday just kicks the can down the road for 45 days. and so we're going to have to go through this drill all over again. we need a congress that is functional. and with donald trump as leader of that party and kevin mccarthy as leader of the house, it is completely dysfunctional. i don't know what happens to mccarthy's speakership, but frankly the problem he's having is we don't trust him. he broke his word with the president over the debt ceiling deal. his own conference doesn't trust him. he doesn't seem to stand for anything except the desire to hold on to the gavel. and ultimately we'll see whether he survives. >> you mentioned this impeachment inquiry that he commissioned seemingly as an olive branch to the far right and that didn't work as they're still threatening his job. the hearing, though, the first hearing of that inquiry last week was derided by most other republicans as well for not getting their message across. where do you -- what's your assessment of that? where do you see that going? as much as that hearing went off the rails, they're signaling they're not going to stop. >> it's another train wreck. just as the government shutdown was predictable, this is also predictable train wreck. they don't have any evidence of any high crimes or misdemeanors committed by the president or any evidence of any low crimes or anything else. but they're barrelling ahead nonetheless to placate their crazies, but once you put the train on that track, it becomes very difficult to stop. and so where does it end? does it end with them bringing up an impeachment to vote that fails? or does it end upbringing up an impeachment vote based on nothing which they're forced to support because they've got trump bashing them if they don't? this is the kind of chaos the house is in. and the tragedy is, you know, many of us, like myself, are working to find housing for people who are homeless and deal with the housing unaffordability and inflation and fentanyl crisis and all the things that we need to do to deliver for the american people. this is the heart of my senate campaign but also the heart of our work in congress. but instead, we're engaged in this bogus proceeding and we're shutting down the government or coming to the brink every 45 days. it's a tragedy and self inflicted wound for the country. >> congressman, can i broaden this out. over the weekend we seen in europe a member of the european union, slovakia, give majority of votes in parliamentary elections to a party that is pro-russian. looking at what is happening there and whether that is some kind of warning sign for other countries and leaderships and looking at what is happening in the republican party here, do you think we just haven't done a good enough job of explaining to populations on both sides of the atlantic why it is important to carry on supporting the ukrainians in their military effort? it just seems clear that the republican party no longer believes that ukraine is a priority. >> well, we have to do a much better job making the case. now, slovakia has always been on the bubble. they've always had a very strong pro-russian party. i spent six months in slovakia back in the early '90s. he was an emerging. >> reporter: pro-russian leader at that time. but the reality is, as the war drags on, we have to continue and more vigorously make the case for why, if russia is successful in ukraine, then you're going to see other nations remaking the map using military force. we see azerbaijan threatening armenia itself no doubt encouraged by the muted reaction by some or the waning support by what we see of republicans in congress and the distraction of the war in ukraine as far as russia is concerned. so it is inherently destabilizing. the longer this goes on and if russia were to be successful, i think it also could have dominos in terms of what china thinks in taiwan. is it now emboldened? so the stakes are enormously high. and we need to make sure we're making the case and making it as effectively as possible. >> democratic congressman adam schiff of california, thank you very much for being on this morning. all right. still ahead this morning, we geek out with astro physicist neil degrasse tyson who has a new book filled with amazing information on the cosmos and he explains how and why humanity began to explore space. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. watching "" we'll be right back. rsv is out there. for those 60 years and older protect against rsv with arexvy. arexvy is a vaccine used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects are injection site pain, fatigue, muscle pain, headache, and joint pain. i chose arexvy. rsv? 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(zipping zipper) ooh, queen likes. ♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." let's bring you right now nbc sports soccer analyst and co-host of "men in blazers" roger bennett. the liverpool faithful as outraged as you were, as outraged and maddened as you were, when abc took heart to heart off the air. tell us all about it. >> oh, joe, you got me there because the premier league is back. it's as big as the ryder cup, but actually competitive. let's begin in london. a clash of two unbeaten teams perpetually self soiling. hot spur born under their australian manager, aussie held care bear. facing up to the good vibes of resur surging boston red sox liverpool but tottenham begin with the upper hand. the pride of gang juan province. but liverpool, they are truly still mentally monsters. and on the stroke of halftime, oh, they got back into the game. i don't know how, joe, but it was cody spinning right around bb, like a record, baby. 1-1. and liverpool just tenacity personified. they will not lie down on the d canvas. but they had another man sent off, a goal wrongly disallowed. the kind of injustice over the decades, resistance. bob dylan would have written a hit protest strong about it and their valiant perseverance folded in the last minute as the goal of massive proportions. we are loving the celebrations. this is how the game ended. locals persevering with the known goal and ending like a line if paul. the man is a useless passion, joe. it is meaningless that we live and meaningless that we die. agony for you. the boston red sox owners. perfect, man city, who seemed invincible. opening the scoring, 2-0. a one-man charge down the flank. joe rambo on a solo mission on goal. city though, they ruled back in the 58th minute. alvarez, those are english peasants there cheering the invention of electricity in england which has just occurred, but manchester city, they would roar back, unleashing a free kick. let's see it. with an argentinian, nene, god bless. the korean king, it was korean weekend in the league, wielding the dagger. like seeing a human briefly over throw their robot overlords. manchester city, god bless them. zz top. manchester city still top, yet they lose in the league for first time since may. let's move quickly. oh, there he is. old wang, the korean guy. finally, manchester united, that football in gray gardens owned by the glazers of tampa bay. they lost their home to crystal palace, the only goal, flashing home some wonder thunder. four losses in seven games. manchester united, joe, their season has gone a little bit. the story about liverpool, joe scarborough . >> yeah, lots of boos there at old trafford. let's talk about where things stand. liverpool loses and i share joe's frustration with officiating. man city takes its first loss as well. here we are seven or so games in. give us your sense of it. is it a two-team race, a three-team race, a five-team race? what do you think? >> well, manchester city are a little bit like artificial intelligence. it is chatgpt in cleats. so, good lord, we are looking really for the top four. at the end of the day money determines everything in football. we're just cheering for excel spread sheets which is why we watch sports at the end of the day. >> my husband has a city supporter, has been since the age of 7 which is when they were not the glitzy, rich team they are now so his allegiance goes way back. he had a bit of unhappy weekend but first time i have seen him unhappy watching the game in years. they've got it, haven't they? it is hard to see another team that takes over them. >> they are trying to do what the chicago bulls couldn't and four-peat. ultimately they're robots. the only loss, i believe they were perfect before this, to try to trick the world into thinking they are human. kathy kay, i have no sympathy for your husband. i am an everton fan, a chicago bulls fan. i don't know why we're here but i'm pretty sure it is not in order to enjoy ourselves. i am genuinely sorry. even i, a horrible person who is 99% major shout out to freud, i'm sorry for you on liverpool. >> roger, i keep you and your children who you have pushed this evertonian curse on to, i keep you all in my prayers every weekend. our southern baptist prayer circle is going to include you. it is a mighty, mighty burden for you to carry. >> it is the best part of my weekend hearing that, joe. i need your prayers. god bless to everyone, especially kathy kay's husband at this terribly dark time. >> thoughts and prayers. thoughts and prayers. roger bennet, thank you so much. ahead on "morning joe," donald trump will be appearing in a manhattan courtroom for the start of the civil fraud trial against the former president. we will break down what is at stake for the future of the trump organization, for donald trump and for his family when we return. s of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. -ahh, -here, i'll take that. woo hoo! ensure max protein 30 grams protein, one gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals, and nutrients for immune health. (♪♪) are you concerned about america's reputation on the world stage given the level of brinkmanship we've seen this year? >> based on the maga republican part, yes. based on what my administration is doing, no. >> president biden blaming maga republicans if the country falters and how the movement is endangering democracy. this as house speaker kevin mccarthy defied the right-wing of his party and partnered with democrats to keep congress running. now his job could be on the line. we'll discuss mccarthy's fate and who he may need to turn for help. plus, hours from now donald trump will appear in court in manhattan for the start of a civil trial scrutinizing his business practices. we will break down what is at stake as the former president faces off against the judge who found him liable of massive fraud. and attorney general merrick garland gets emotional. see the moment he choked up during an interview when asked about political violence and why he says it is his gravest concern. >> for good reason. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, october 2nd. hope y'all had a great weekend. with us we have the host of "way too early" and white house bureau chief at "politico", jonathan lemire. and u.s. special correspondent for bbc news kathy kay is with us this morning. >> jonathan, we were showing the stills of trump with the california gop banner behind him. i mean some of the most unhinged things that he has ever said, and that is going a long way, he said at that event. >> yeah, no, he did. first of all, he used some of george carlin's forbidden words which is remarkable, the former president really working blue in california over the weekend. he reiterated his criticisms of chairman milley, the outgoing, who he has suggested should be executed for treason. he has talked again about his ongoing criminal trials, to the point where, as we will get into later this morning, jack smith's team is reuping its request for somewhat of a gag order to keep trump from doing so. he is again suggested that the process of the coming election could be rigged, and the only way he could lose. so it is more of the same rhetoric from donald trump in an overheated and perhaps, as you say, mon unhinged way as pressure seems to be building not just in all of these criminal cases but this week he's likely -- >> yeah. >> -- scheduled to be appearing in a manhattan courtroom and he may lose his entire business. >> you know, mika, two specific things he did where he mocked and ridiculed paul pelosi and laughed about it, told jokes about it, and the sickness, of course, was that he is doing that, mocking and ridiculing an 82-year-old man that had a break-in in his house and had a hammer slammed into his head and just the worst -- just a nightmare for any family. the republican leader is mocking and ridiculing an 82-year-old man who was the victim of political violence. again, here is the sick part. really sick. >> a lot of sick parts. >> there are a lot of sick parts but the sick part is the crowd was laughing along to the joke. used to be you would tell political jokes, self-deprecating political jokes, then my daughter walked up to me and bylaw blah, blah, . here in donald trump's republican party an 82-year-old man having his home broken into by just a deranged attacker and then getting hit in the head repeatedly by a hammer, that's, first of all, a politician's punch line but, again, just showing how sick this maga crowd has gotten, they're laughing in the audience. >> yeah. >> and on top of that, you know, he's talking about you got to do these mother blankers like he's talking, you know, i don't know if he thinks he's like a rapper now. but, again, this is -- and these are people that say, oh, we're upright christians, we support donald trump. yeah, they support violence and they want their kids going around saying the things that donald trump says? i don't think so. since i've talked about it so much let's play it. >> together we will take on the ultra left wing liars, losers, creeps, perverts and freaks who are devouring the future of this state like a swarm of locusts. and we'll stand up to crazy nancy pelosi who ruined san francisco. how's her husband doing, by the way? anybody know? and she's against building a wall at our border even though she has a wall around her house, which obviously didn't do a very good job. what they've done is they've gone after opponents so that if you become president, or some other job, but if you become president and you don't like somebody or if somebody is beating you by 10, 15, or 20 points like we're doing with crooked joe biden, let's indict the mother [ bleep ]. let's indict. >> the republican party. they're laughing. >> this is the front-runner and the people in the audience think it is hilarious. >> that's their party. >> republicans in congress, many of them still walking the walk for this guy. katty kay, it doesn't look very american. there are other countries that this might look like, but there's a cult-like sense here and definitely an authoritarian one. >> look, donald trump is still the show. i mean why -- i think something people underestimated back in 2016 when he ran was his ability to kind of combine his celebrity entertainment quality with a smattering of politics and a little bit of policy the base of the republican party liked. key to it is his ability to kind of shock the crowd, to make them feel he is saying things that, you know, they would like to say but didn't feel they could. it is a rerun of all of the things that he did in 2016. when he did it in 2016, the difference is that's the first time he had done it. now he is still doing the same thing. you listen to that it is and it is a bit like a trump rally in 2016. there's a little less humor, a bit darker, more american carnage style but he is rerunning the same stories. even in the speech in california he went over the 2020 election was stolen, was rigged idea. we're almost there, he is almost running a general election at this point, how does it still work this time around? >> yeah. >> once the whole country is used to it and we are looking at policies for the future and some inclination of what a second term would look like and there isn't much of that. >> yes, except this time he is saying mother -- and, most importantly this time he's now so desperate to up the heat, up the temperature, up the calls for political violence that he's mocking and ridiculing an 82-year-old man getting beaten up and the audience is latching along. >> now, that is something that he has sort of brought this party down, and they laugh at anything and everything just because he said something shocking and don't understand the ramifications, the violence even that the country has seen. >> i wonder how they would feel if their 82-year-old parent or grandparent was assaulted by a hammer. >> yeah. >> and was clinging on to life and entire audiences were laughing. >> no, it's -- >> about their 82-year-old grandfather getting bludgeoned almost to death with a hammer. again, we're in america. there's somebody mocking and ridiculing political violence of an opponent. i mean this is -- this is so -- >> after we have seen it happen. >> this is so different from everything else. i must say also, i had journalists that weekend -- let's go back, talk about how sick, how sick this has become. journalists and people on the right and, remember, i told you about the truth tellers, oh, they're the truth tellers, they're going to tell you joe biden is an idiot because he talked about politics and abortion. they're going to mock and i had ridicule, these are the truth tellers. they're not like the mainstream media, they're the truth tellers. they were the same ones calling up and saying, there's more to it, this paul pelosi thing, they were gay lovers, paul pelosi was a gay lover. those are what the truth tellers were saying. >> rotten to the core. >> by the way, i remember getting the calls all weekend! the truth tellers. that's why a certain person on social media was a truth teller. i'm saying there's just this sickness. >> right. >> that continues to spread and the so-called truth tellers this cycle should tell the truth, instead of saying, oh, let me tell you the truth about joe biden. >> you mentioned this cycle. that's the difference. last cycle you could argue, what are we dealing with and people maybe could be given a pass, some of the people in the audience laughing because they don't think he is serious and he won't do that. we have learned he will and he has and america has been through a hell of a lot since donald trump was elected president and then lost the presidency and tried to steal it and started an insurrection many would argue, that we saw violence in our capitol and people deaf indicating in our capitol and people going to jail for years and yet you still support him. it is as if there are no rules for this man. >> no rules. >> except in the court of law. >> except in the court of law. again, these people, you know, laughing at paul pelosi getting battered and abused, laughing and cheering when he talks about killing the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, being with him every step of the way with violence on january 6th. joe biden is right. make no mistake. this has been a real problem. >> so i mentioned the court of law. this morning the former president will be seated in a manhattan courtroom for the start of a civil fraud trial against him. the former president arrived at his one-time home of trump tower last night, a building that could soon be taken away from him pending the decision of judge arthur engoren. a nonjury trial last week -- the judge in that nonjury trial found trump and his two oldest sons and his company liable of fraud in a case brought by new york attorney general letitia james. today the punishment phase of the trial will begin where the former president could be fined $250 million and forced to give up all of his new york state properties. although he is on the witness list for both the defense and the prosecution, it is unclear if trump will testify at the trial. this is massive. let's bring in former fbi general counsel, now an nbc news legal analyst, andrew weissmann. the reporter on the investigations desk at "the new york times," russ beutner joins us once again. thank you so much both of you. let's start with you, russ, with the very latest on this case. once again, this is not if he is liable for fraud. this is how much he pays for it, correct? >> that's exactly right. there's a few moving parts in this. there's going to be some kind of financial analysis that hasn't been explained yet i don't think about how you calculate the financial benefit that he obtained in doing this. whether that's going to be the hundreds of millions of dollars he obtained or the beneficial interest rate he received on those or a lower rate i don't think it is clear. the attorney general estimated that to be $250 million. i think that suggests it could go even higher than that. >> oh, my god. >> and then add to that what the receiver will do in trying to maintain enough assets and the performance of those assets to make sure he will have access to pay whatever judgment is finally determined. >> well, andrew, also, of course, also the possibility of him having to forfeit some of his properties in new york city as well as his business license for the state, what's the likelihood of that happening? >> i think it is very likely. as mika said, in many ways this trial is over. the judge has already ruled on the first of the claims against donald trump and his sons and his businesses, and so as russ said it is really just a question of what is the financial penalty in terms of the amount of money that will be disgorged from donald trump and his companies. but having a receiver and his losing his licenses in new york is something the judge has already concluded with respect to the first count. there are six other counts though that are being tried this week that involve needing to show donald trump's intent and also whether he damaged any insurance companies or any banks. that's the reason that i think letitia james has him on a witness list, to call him, because i think she is banking on the fact -- no pun intended -- that he will be a terrible witness, you know. he obviously has shown that in the e. jean carroll case and that obviously will be where there is fireworks. the big picture is that he has already lost with huge financial consequences that this judge has imposed. >> russ, let's talk about that possibility. we know donald trump is here in new york city. he arrived last night. he could certainly attend the proceedings this week, sit in a courtroom. he's also been called as a potential witness for both sides of this case. his sons have as well. so walk us through what you expect him to do and if you were to take the stand what would he say and would any lawyer suggest that's a good idea? >> i think it is always hazardous to try to guess what donald trump is going to do or what the boundaries will be on his behavior. i would suspect that he will show up for one or two days of this thing and he'll make a big spectacle of arriving, make a big spectacle of departing, say something outrageous on the steps outside the courthouse. there won't be cameras inside the courtroom so we won't see him there. he doesn't have to risk the kind of embarrassment of sitting at a table in a courtroom for long hours while attorneys layout his filth essentially. whether somebody is going -- obviously as you said nobody would want him to testify. that could not be productive for his case. there are two ways i think it could go and i'm sure andrew could say more about this. if the prosecutors call him, if the attorney general's office call him, he would most likely wisely take the fifth over virtually everything they ask but it is very hard for donald trump to do. he did it somewhat during his deposition. he also said some outrageous things. or if we get to the end of the trial, which is expected to last several weeks and it looks like they're going to get their clock cleaned on this and there's nothing much to lose, maybe they put him up there and let him take a shot at saying something that might turn the judge. . >> wow. >> that, again, seems ill-advised and i think highly unlikely. >> yeah, whatever. so, andrew, a couple of questions. >> could you imagine being in such a bad position -- >> that you have to put him up there? >> -- that you say, "the only thing we have left is letting donald trump testify in a court of law," that's our last chance?" >> he did so well in hess defamation trial where he told e. jean carroll's attorney that she wasn't his type and the attorney he was speaking to wasn't his type either and snarled at her. i thought it was a special touch. >> that's also where he actually said throughout history -- >> millions of -- >> -- men like him were able to do whatever he wanted to do with women. >> it is just the truth, you know. >> stellar witness. >> if you need to know anything about donald trump it is important to watch that deposition. so, andrew, a couple of things. number one, you pointed out that it has already been concluded that a receiver has to be put in place. i want to understand what that mings for donald trump's businesses right now. how does that actually work? how does that impact his actual business with other people, you know? do people still want to do business with him if his company is in this situation, things like that? then also if you could touch on the separate -- the federal case election interference, jack smith asking for a gag order, what does that mean and will it happen? >> sure. just one thing to note, if donald trump takes the stand and actually testifies, whether it is for letitia james or the defense, let's take one example. he claimed that his own personal residence in trump tower was 30,000 square feet. >> right. >> even the defense lawyers before this judge conceded that was wrong. the judge is like, how do you not know that it is 10,000 feet? then, you know, used that to -- as the court found defraud insurance companies and banks by saying he has more assets than he has. and that's one of the reasons for facts like that which are just so plainly fictitious that the judge appointed a receiver. what that means is essentially the attorney general for new york is in charge of protecting new yorkers from what's call persistent fraudsters and that's what the court found donald trump and his companies and his sons are. so the receiver gets to essentially make sure that he is not doing business in new york. mika, you raise a really good question about whether that's already a huge penalty and sanction, had that also leads to banks and insurance companies basically pulling the plug or not financing him anymore is going to be a big, open question. there already are really significant consequences because this is where donald trump's main businesses are. so huge factor for him in terms of his companies, in terms of all sorts of business interests that he has here, that he no longer will be in control of. with respect to the gag order, that is now fully briefed before the dc federal judge. as you noted at the outset, donald trump does not seem to be deterred in any way, shape or form from the fact that he's making these outrageous comments including about, as you noted, paul pelosi which is beyond shocking and there's no question that for a federal judge it is going to be a big deal because it shows such complete callousness and just complete disregard for the fact that he is out on bail, not in one case but four criminal cases. so there is a hearing that is scheduled in two weeks before the judge where the parties will address that issue and argue, and then she will make a ruling. >> wow. >> okay. >> nbc news legal analyst andrew weissmann and new york times reporter russ beutner. thank you both very much for your insights this morning. and coming up, the government shutdown was averted with little time to spare, but hard-line republicans are not satisfied with the outcome. >> they, they, they -- in fact, they held a press conference and were enraged. their tiktokers went down considerably because government did its business. >> oh, dear. >> they weren't able to raise as much money so now they're going to try to overthrow kevin mccarthy and, of course, a tiktok nation awaits this shocking! shocking outcome. >> i wonder what will happen. >> oh, my god. the plan spontaneity killing me. plus, general mark milley delivered what many saw as a dig at donald trump, calling him a wannabe dictator. we will play for you that moment ahead. "morning joe" will be right back. as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty. all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly support will make you part of the movement to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards. but the aclu can't do this important work without the support of people like you. you can help ensure liberty and justice for all and make sure that every vote is counted. so please call the aclu now or go to my aclu.org and join us. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and much more. to show you're a part of the movement to protect the rights guaranteed to all of us by the us constitution. we protect everyone's rights, the freedom of religion, the freedom of expression, racial justice, lgbtq rights, the rights of the disabled. we are here for everyone. it is more important than ever to take a stand. so please join us today. because we the people means all the people, including you. so call now or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty. they're unique among the world's armies. they're unique among the world's militaries. we don't take an oath to a country. we don't take an oath to a tribe. we don't take an oath to a religion. we don't take an oath to a king or a queen or a tyrant or a dictator. we don't take an oath to a wannabe dictator. we don't take an oath to an individual. we take an oath to the constitution and we take an oath to the idea of america and we're willing to die to protect it. >> this part of general mark milley's retirement speech on friday in which he appeared to take a dig at donald trump, saying the job of the u.s. military is to protect the constitution. he was likely rponding to trump's sial media post a week earlier in which he suggested milley be put to death for a routine phone call he made to leaders in china. lester holt asked general milley about the call in an exclusive for "nightly news." take a look. >> a few days before the election you were making it known that the army, the military would play no role in determining the outcome -- >> sure. >> -- of the election. why did you feel the need to say that? was that a specific concern that you had. >> there was a lot of discussion in the open media about the u.s. military, what role we would play and so on. so i wanted to make sure it was clear to the american people, to our adversaries, to our friends and allies overseas but also to our own force, to us wearing the uniform that we have zero, and i mean zero role in u.s. electoral politics. >> you assured your chinese counterpart at one point that essentially the u.s. was okay, the u.s. was stable. is that a fair characterization? >> yes, and secretary espy asked me to make a call and we did that. they were nervous about potential civil instability in this country. i was asked to make sure they didn't make any military moves and to let them know we're a stable country and we are going to be just fine. >> which is, of course, what you want our leaders to do. you can watch the exclusive interview tonight on "nbc nightly news." mika, that's exactly what generals do and admirals do and what they've done throughout history to adversaries during difficult times. as far as the first part of it saying we're not going to play a role in this election. >> yeah. >> he talked about telling the american people, our friends and adversaries, but most importantly, and he had done it after june 1st, he was sending a message to men and women up and down the ranks, men and women in uniform, it is not our job. we are not going to be pulled into a coup. >> right. >> we protect and defend the constitution of the united states of america. that's why we put on the uniform. it was extraordinarily important, both things that he did. anybody that doesn't think it was -- >> yeah. >> -- actually, they supported the riots. >> right. >> i mean if they were -- if they were mad at him for sending that message to the military before january 6th, they wanted the military to step in. >> yeah. >> and be a part of the coup. >> katty, that's why i see it more than a dig, a warning to call him a wannabe dictator. >> yeah. i mean the whole thing has got so messed up in donald trump's politics and revenge at this point, of lashing out at milley and now over the weekend at as per as well, calling esper a woke fool because he was the one that said to milley, yes, you should go ahead and do this. we have gone through a period in the united states where there was not communication at the highest levels between the pentagon and the chinese military and there was a lot of frustration here in washington they weren't having those lines of communication open because there were worries there could be some kind of mistake in the south china sea, something could go wrong and it could lead to a conflict. you need those communications on a regular basis, so exactly that, that you need -- you need to be able to call out your counterpart in a stressful situation and say, okay, look, this is what you need to be concerned about, this is what you don't need to be concerned about, and that is exactly what milley was doing. but, you know, for the pains of doing that, nbc has reporting of this over the weekend of trump supporters in iowa -- and this is what is alarming. trump says it, he should be put to death or he should be executed and now you have trump supporters in iowa telling nbc news that they agree with that statement. it only takes one person with a vicious motive and a gun in their hand and the decision to do something crazy to put into action trump's words and you are starting to see it filter down from trump, down from his headquarters to his rallies to people who believe what he says. coming up, kevin mccarthy relied on democrats to pass a spending bill and that could cost him the speakership. >> or not. >> the latest on the efforts to remove him from the top job on capitol hill when "morning joe" comes right back. n "morning joe comes right back fresh sliced ham on the grand slam ham. five meats on the beast! and look at that double cheese! try subway's tastiest refresh yet. what did we do before viasat satellite internet? 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"the washington post's" jackie alemany is with us. jackie, three years after the insurrection this stuff is still happening. >> yes, mika, that's right. that's why this rhetoric has continued and that's why you have seen jack smith ask again for a gag order on trump as really the past two weeks from threats to mark milley, mike pence, judge tanya chutkan, even attempting to buy a firearm in south carolina during a campaign visit which his campaign then issued a clarification saying that he actually did not try to purchase -- that he actually didn't go through with the purchase. shows his continued defiance for, you know, obviously our political norms, the safety of other people, but also the law. we'll see, you know, whether or not smith's actually looked to get this gag order this time around, but all of this confluence of factors does seem to bode well for him. >> jackie, all of the papers on saturday morning were talking about the coming republican shutdown, about midway through the morning or maybe middle of the day the breaking news banners saying, in fact, it had been averted. what happened? how did we go from a pending government shutdown to the ice breaking and suddenly, boom, it was over? >> it was a really mind boggling turn of events to watch on saturday and it happened because mccarthy essentially broke the unwritten rule of his speakership we have all been following which is do not cooperate with democrats, which he ultimately did. he decided after many attempts to give in to hard line right republicans requests to balance the budget and make a lot of domestic cuts along with foreign cuts, cuts to ukraine aid, he wasn't able to get enough votes for those ultimately. he finally just hours before the deadline decided to put forward a clean continuing resolution that is really a 45-day agreement to maintain 2023 spending levels, but it did lack the funding for ukraine to continue to support our allies and the vast resources that they need to fight -- to continue to fight this war with our support. mccarthy though in doing so, in making this agreement, which essentially all other government including republicans agreed to, especially republicans in the senate, has now put his speakership on the line. so, you know, this was the red line for matt gaetz, although it did seem like there was a core group of hard-line republicans who all along had been ready to just directly move to ousting speaker mccarthy. so we're expecting a motion to vacate brought to the house by matt gaetz as soon as this morning. that then triggers this 48-hour period where there's going to be a snap vote. mccarthy is then potentially going to have to rely on democrats yet again. it only requires five republicans to actually remove him. that would mean either getting democrats to just vote present or getting democrats to support him. so it is going to be a long 45 days for him. coming up, one of the top-ranking democrats in the house, minority whip katherine clark is standing by. her reaction to the last-minute spending deal and whether she expects to go through the same thing all over again in a few weeks. 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(vo) get your competitive offer at opendoor dot com. yeah, you know, katty kay, we talk about how these extremists are standing in the way of getting work done in washington and we talk about regular order and everything else. i hope the white house doesn't dismiss out of hand this sort of trade-off, which is ukraine funding and border security funding going way up. the reason i say that is that not only helps republicans, getting republicans on board, it is going to help a lot of democrats as well in districts. it will help republicans and democrats in swing districts because i think a lot of americans, republicans, democrats, independents, will say, wait a second, we are spending all of this money on ukraine and yet you look at what is happening at the southern border. both are important. we should do both. let's wrap it all up in a bill, and that way -- i mean if you are looking at it politically like, you know, joe biden, you also put yourself in a position where if gop extremists vote against that bill they're voting against, say, the biggest funding increase in border security in american history. let them take that home and try to justify that. >> yeah, it is so funny. i was driving, listening to mccarthy over the weekend with my husband in the car and he was asking exactly that same question. he was say, why are they tying the border to ukraine. he is very keen on more ukraine funding. i said, look, it actually makes a lot of political sense because it allows members to go back to their districts and puncture the argument that the white house is not looking after americans at home but is looking after ukrainians on the other side of the atlantic. i mean, look, the counter is that there will always be those in the republican party it seems at the moment -- i mean given the changes that this republican party is, there always will be those who find some reason not to want to support ukraine, whether it is the border or something else, or not spending enough on something else back in the states. >> right. >> but this is such a potent issue at the moment with images of people coming across and there are clearly so many people coming through the border, you have them camping out in hotels in new york city, that i think it is a way -- as you say, a way not just to help republicans but to help democrats as well. >> and the timing, and i'm sure, jackie, you hear about it all the time on the hill. the timing is perfect. this is where you take the opportunity before you and say, okay, we will compromise with you while doing something that's, you know, good for everybody. it would be good for the white house. again, i think if the white house just sort of sticks their feet in cement and go, no, we're not going to do that, i think they're missing a great opportunity here because talk about the rising pressure, not just in conservative districts but all districts about the illegal immigration crisis, whether you are talking about on the border in texas, california or new york city. >> yeah, joe, although this idea is sounding a bit too rational for this house gop conference that has not been governed by rationality in any way, although this weekend what ultimately forced mccarthy's -- what ultimately forced house democrats and house republicans' hands was putting forth a by some democrats, especially ones in vulnerable districts, just couldn't vote against despite the reluctance to cooperate with mccarthy. there is -- this is a good patchwork solution here but it does require everything sort of falling perfectly into place and it also requires mccarthy to continue to try to put his job as speaker continuing the government to function, funding the government, which is really the number one job that congressional house lawmakers have. they are appropriators as minted in the constitution first and foremost. but this he has consistently put forward, the speakership and his desire to keep his job before everything else. so we'll see which ultimately again he decides to put first. >> all right. "the washington post's" jackie alemany. thank you so much. i tell you, if i were joe biden, if i were advising joe biden i would say, listen, you have an unbelievable opportunity here. >> yeah. >> you increase funding for ukraine, you continue -- you continue the funding there, but you don't do a halfway measure on the border. this is an unprecedented crisis on the border. that calls for an unprecedented action, and some people in his base are not going to like it. okay. >> yeah. >> well, that's what compromise is. like lyndon johnson, it was like i want 51 votes. if we got 65, 68 votes, then i didn't push the compromise enough. i want 51 votes, which means i offended people on both sides of the extreme and we got everything in there we could possibly get in there. >> yes. >> that's what joe biden needs to do here. we are always hearing, oh, well, these people keep streaming across the border because we don't have enough border agents, we don't have enough judges. >> it is not that simple. >> we don't have enough this, we don't have enough that. there aren't resources to take care of this, but going around on the campaign trail and talking about what is happening in central america is not going to help anybody. there's a crisis at the border right now that has to be taken care of first. >> and it will take democrats and republicans to do that. >> it will take democrats and republicans to do it. you have a great opportunity to do it here. these wholistic problems, right, other countries, the reason why they're coming up here? well, that is long term and you know it is long term. that doesn't work on the campaign trail. actually, give people the resources they need on the border. give them the judges. give them the security -- >> republicans. >> -- give everybody what they need, the border security people, and this is a great opportunity to do it. don't listen to the extremes on both sides. do what's the right thing and i will say if you do what the right thing is to bring some order to the border. >> yeah. >> he actually -- any time donald trump brings up the border he goes, wait? what are you talking about? i funded the border more than you ever did. >> right. >> i spent more money on the border than you ever did with your imaginary wall you had up in your mind. >> oh, my god. >> you said you were going to build this great, beautiful gold door with one door in the middle. >> that people could climb over. >> you never did it. republicans even said it was a stupid idea when they were in charge of washington, d.c. you never did it, don't, but i tell you what, i did. this is what i did. and then you start ticking down the list of it. i tell you, the american people want that, our border agents need that and it is a win-win. >> and an opportunity to hold the republicans accountable for their part of the process or to work with them. we'll see. >> by the way, if the republicans vote no on that, could lock that in the swing districts. coming up, a live report from outside the courthouse in new york where donald trump is facing a quarter billion dollar lawsuit. a preview of today's opening statements when "morning joe" comes right back. 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[dog barks] no it's just a bunny! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ when my doctor gave me breztri for my copd things changed for me. breztri gave me better breathing, symptom improvement, and reduced flare-ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more than prescribed. breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. ask your doctor about breztri. ♪♪ 53 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." a beautiful look at new york city on this monday morning. as nasa plans to return to the moon, the mission may include using a 3-d printer to build permanent housing there for astronauts and civilians. the time line for the first subdivision in space, the year 2040. fascinating. but while nasa has its eyes on the moon and even mars, renowned astrophysicist neil degrasse tyson has his sights set even farther out. that's the focus of his new book entitled "to infinity and beyond a journey of cosmic discovery." and neil joins us now, oh, neil, you're amazing. >> the universe is amazing. where we're going next, i don't like prioritizing explanation. we should turn the solar system into our backyard. and let it be the moon, mars, comets, asteroids and beyond. occasionally, an asteroid might be headed our way, it would be myself to learn how to deflect those, for example. so, all of our needs and wants, so much of it can be served by including the solar system in our sights. >> so, tell us how you and your coauthor lindsey walker came up with the concept for this book which includes spectacular images and concepts, like a space elevator? what the heck. >> yeah, this book. thanks for noticing just how beautiful it is. it's a collaboration with national geographic books. nat-geo, that's how they roll. they put beautiful pictures in it. there's no shortage a hole from one part of the universe to the other. this is a chronicle to ascend the earth's surface, not only physically, but also intellectually to take us from earth, moon, mars and beyond. there's a concept of a space elevator, where you just elevate your way up into orbit, geo synchronous orbit. these are efforts from early beginning, people wanting to ascend to the atmosphere and get your way to the moon. it's the atmosphere continue to the moon, or does it not? so, this exploration tells us, also, where our thinking and efforts have failed. you know, history boos antedocs where people have succeeded. like iccerous. do you give up trying to fly or somewhere else. this is a chronicle of exercise to the moon. it's based on the dna strands of my podcast which is science, pop culture and humor. we find when we thread those, people come back for more. so this emanates from this sort of spiritual energy there. >> so, i'm enough of a "star trek" fan to know holes can exist. where do you go with other nations launching programs, there's certainly private companies thinking about going to mars. are we doing enough fast enough? >> well, i don't want to prejudge that. i can say a lot of this, maybe, could have been happening decades ago. there was this big lull where we only 20 earth's lowest orbit. we haven't left earth's lowest orbit in 51 years. what were we doing for 51 years before walking on the moon? oh, my gosh, trying to fly a little faster. these are images from the book. the book is beautifully illustrated to carry with it. also, there's efforts to pop culture where efforts at movies trying to do this, to be at the worm hole, be it the space station. and we kind of -- whether the movie got it right or got it wrong, you know i'm getting up in the movie to try to figure out where they're taking us. so, it's a celebration. i think the time has come. we fight wars on earth over access to limited resources. resources that are common in the universe. so, i suspect that the day the universe -- the solar system becomes our backyard, and we all participate in that, that would be one of the greatest engines of peace the world has ever seen. removing an entire category of organized warfare. >> so, neil, if you were suddenly in charge of america's space budget, what would you prioritize? and i find it interesting what you mentioned the resources of it, we're fighting over the limited resources here on earth and may become more limited potentially with global warming. where would you put your dollars and your energy? >> yeah, like i say, i don't like to prioritize. i'd just like to do it all. here's what i imagine -- >> i can imagine some republicans in congress as they say, no, no, no, neil, we haven't got that much money. >> well, how much do you think we're spending on nasa? it's 0.4 of a penny don't tell me we don't have the money for it. we have a choice. it's a matter of educating the public of the value of exploration. and how it can transform and improve and benefit our health, our wealth, our security. so, no, i'm not going to say go to the moon first and then this. imagine a warehouse with all manner of rocket parts, right? and i say, i want to look for life on mars. then you go to the warehouse. this booster, this, put this rocket, put that together and you there go. someone else comes in and says i want to put an amusement park on the moon. fine, take this booster, this rocket, put that. and they do that. where we put the interstate system in the united states, we didn't say we want you to go from here to here and that's it. no, there was the freedom to go wherever you wanted and pitch tent. >> yeah, yeah. >> so, as we launch the fourth hour of "morning joe" right now, i'm going to say for joe and me, we'll have what he's having. the book entitled "to infinity and beyond the journey of cosmic discovery." it's on sale now. neil, thank you for being on the show. >> thank you. it's exactly 9:00 on the east coast. we're into the fourth hour now, 6:00 a.m. on the west coast. welcome if you're just joining us. moments from now, donald trump will be seated in a manhattan courtroom for the start of a civil trial against him. this comes after a nonjury trial last week, in which the judge found trump, his two oldest sons and his company, liable of massive fraud. in a case brought by new york attorney general letitia james. this other, it's the punishment phase of the trial. it will begin where the former president could be fined $250 million. and forced to give up all of his new york state properties. in a statement earlier thi morning, a.g. letitia james previewed her prosecutorial pn writing in part, quote, we look forward to demonstrating the full extent of trump's fraud and illegality during trial. she added, no matter how rich and powerful you e, there are not two sets of laws for people in this country. the rule of law must apply equally to everyone and it's my responsibility to make sure it does. joining us now from outside the new york city courthouse is nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard. vaughn, what can we expect today? >> reporter: yeah, good morning, mika, good morning, guys. over the course of the next hour, we expect donald trump to make his way from trump tower here to lower manhattan for the first day of what could amount to a three month-long trial. attorney general letitia james could very well be here herself. one year ago when she announced the charges against donald trump and his family and the trump organization, is he said trump had heralded him as the master of the deal. she said truly it was the art of the steal. and they outlined as part of the case against donald trump and others there were more than 200 instances in which they inflated the values of assets and committed tax fraud and bank fraud. just as an example, the trump tower, the apartment complex in which he lived before running for president, he valued it at $327 million. suggesting that it was actually 30,000 square feet instead of 10,000 square feet. i was with trump in los angeles on friday and attempted to ask him why he overestimated the size of his apartment. he completely deflected, suggesting it was again a witch hunt by letitia james, the attorney general against him. i asked him why he valued it $327 million, his apartment in new york which is three times any of apartment ever sold in new york city history. he deflected that. and in a deposition with the attorney general he pleaded the fifth more than 400 times. eric trump, his son, pleaded the fifth 500 times. the judge erguron and in the court, he asked him whether he would testify or not and he told me perhaps. mika. >> nbc's vaughn hillyard, thank you very much. let's bring in former msnbc host chris matthews. >> chris. >> i'll let you launch it to chris. but i'll let you say, this case, i don't think we can underestimate how much this case is a very bad deal for donald trump. compared to the others where he might have highfalutining ideas that he can get around it. but this case hits at the heart of everything he's about, his money, his fortune, the size of things. >> well, we always said, it always goes back to money with donald trump. so, this does hit him right at the heart of what he values the most. and it's far more immediate than some criminal cases. you know, chris, it's fascinating, for years we have said on the show, and we've been able to talk about in america, no man is supposed to be above the law. and yet, donald trump is always above the law. we said that through 2016 and, well, most of 2022, and yet, here we are as the attorney general of new york state just said no man is above the law. laws apply to everybody. here we find, after all of these years of donald trump going back to the mid-'70s, skirting the law, everything seems to be converging all at once. he could lose his businesses over tax fraud and business fraud. and he could lose his freedom over stealing nuclear secrets and trying to rig an election. it's all coming -- the bill is all coming due at one time, isn't it? >> yeah, i've been watching the program all morning. i have to tell you you hit a lot of big points about character. i mean, the character of a president should be important. and the idea never paying your bills. so many people will tell you trump owes them money, and they could never get him to pay because they'd take him to court and he would outspend you in lawyers. he'd do that, and with paul pelosi, anyone in doubt about the character of a person making a charge like that this weekend, making fun of a guy through his own fault, street crime, which republicans are very angry about street crime, criminal behavior, the most simple kind, assault. does anybody doubt he was sitting in the white house during the attack on the capitol on january 6th, 2021. he was sitting there doing nothing, fiddling his thumbs and watching this go on because his character told him this is fun. these people are getting hurt. the vice president is going to get attacked. >> chris, the testimony of january 6th, it was not only did he sit there and watch, but he would rewind to watch the most violent parts. >> yeah. >> it's like what he said about john mccain, that the president reiterated this past weekend in vietnam. to say john mccain was a guy that somehow threw his hands up because the other side was coming. he was shot down over hanoi, the enemy capital, shot down in hanoi, and they caught him, and now looked up as a person of courage and trump doesn't. and he looks at paul pelosi as some kind of collateral damage because of homelessness in san francisco. the rules are this guy isn't to be trusted. and the average joe, excuse the expression in philadelphia or around the state of pennsylvania or the home, the average person who makes an average income looked up to trump as some rich guy. even this rich guy is with it. this new yorker, this manhattanite, he agrees with us. they've been using his wealth as a demonstration of his own honesty. now, he's going to be shown as not so wealthy. well, he's wealthy, obviously. >> it's important to remember that the tax returns over the decade when he was selling art of the deal and painting himself as one of the richest and most successful people in the world, the irs he looked through the irs returns over a decade, and he lost more money than any other single taxpayer in the united states of america. so much for that great prowess. i want to play that clip, the pelosi clip, the paul pelosi clip. of course, we know how grotesque it is that donald trump laughs and mocks and makes jokes at an 82-year-old man who is beaten up and assaulted with a hammer. worse than that, though, listen to the audience. listen to them laughing. laughing at attempted murder. >> together, we will take on the ultra left wing liars, losers, creeps, perverts and freaks who are devouring the future of this state like a swarm of locusts. and we'll stand up to crazy nancy pelosi who ruined san francisco. how's her husband doing, by the way? anybody know? and she's against building a wall at our border even though she has a wall around her house. which obviously didn't do a very good job. >> i mean -- >> laughing. >> -- cruel, sick, then the audience. it's like, chris, the rules don't apply to this man. and they've all made that decision together. and i want to ask you about that. but i want to broaden it out to the area where the rules do apply. and that would be in the court of law. and so in the court of law, there's a little bit of something for everyone that will be paying out over the next year. as he runs for president. trying to steal an election. he's, of course, got counts against him for that. he also says he won the election, so he's still trying to steal it. he admits to stealing documents that says they were his. this is the part he admits. he admits to having sex with a porn star then paying her off. doesn't see a problem with that. there's january 6th, you can make your own mind up about that. defamation in that trial, he was liable for sexual abuse. the judge said it was rape. and now this, this case in new york city, this judge saying that he is liable for massively ripping people off for years. for years, that he was a shyster and a grifter and a rip-off artist long before he became president. i think, as the evidence comes out in this one, it will cut to the core of the middle class american just trying to pay the bills, run the business, plays by the rules, pays his or her taxes. seeing what a con artist this guy is. >> you know, mika, that's the nature of his business. it seems more and more that you learn about his wealth and how it comes from not paying your lawyers. not even paying rudy. god, he has a fund-raiser for rudy, wouldn't even pay the bills himself. he owes the money to fund-raisers and donors. he wouldn't even pay his own bills, for years he didn't pay bills to subcontractors, people he owed jobs to. not paying any bills. and that's how he made his money. people look up at his gold tower, his beautiful wife, how he lives. he has a house in mar-a-lago. they figure this is a big shot of a cartoon. these the big shot that you see in the comic books. he's the guy of "the apprentice," the boss,the guy that fires people. then talks about women saying there needs to be some form of punishment. there needs to be some form of . for donald trump. that's what it's coming to. he's facing a civil trial. and the image, maybe the image will have some effect. but i'll tell you, what joe said this morning, i'll tell you, the audience laughing of a guy getting his head bashed in because he happens to be the spouse of nancy pelosi, who is a very good person, by the way, and so is her husband. somehow, that's all fair in the game, and we can laugh at that -- isn't this the republican party that's against street crime in places like philly. and they should be against crime. this is crime. you're looking at it. >> yeah. you know, you just wonder, you just wonder what led these people to where they are right now. where they would laugh and applaud at an 82-year-old man getting his brains bashed in. you know, we're supposed to sit here and go -- they want to discover what makes a trump supporter? yeah, i do. i do. i have seen -- oh, my god, so many of them do -- it's a christian nationalism. the christian nationalism, she said if jesus had an ar-15, they wouldn't be able to crucify him. this is just absolutely grotesque. the sad thing is these people are willingly cheering and laughing at their political opponent's spouse getting his brains bashed out. that's where they are. that's not where we are as a country in 2023. so, let's just -- that's not where the republican party is as a country in 2023. but certainly, it's where donald trump and his supporters are in 2023. and it is a blight. it is a blight on american democracy. it is a blight on our country. now, this weekend -- >> let's go to garrett haake. >> yeah. this weekend, some drama on capitol hill. some unexpected drama. >> twists and turns. fireworks. let's go to garrett haake. >> let's go to nbc news senior capital correspondent garrett haake. garrett, from fire alarms being pulled, how bizarre is that? >> is that high school? >> yeah, to actually things getting done there to a threat by extremists that they're going to overthrow kevin mccarthy's speakership because he actually got things done. bring us up to date. >> reporter: well, joe, it really was a wild weekend up here, when i left the capitol friday night, i was convinced wed were going to have a shutdown. didn't seem like there was any way out of it. everybody was locked in. republicans have been fighting with themselves for over a week. sometime over friday, on saturday, kevin mccarthy switched tracks, decided to start courting democratic votes as an effort to keep the government open, something democrats have been urging him to do for weeks. although there was a scramble to get to the floor a firearm pulled by jamaal bowman, a democrat from new york. he said it was an accident. the ethics committee is probably going to look into that. we did get this thing across the line. but not before everyone involved in house politics felt that kevin mccarthy had broken some promise to them. whether it was on the spending levels themselves. or whether it was on having 72 hours or even an hour to read pieces of legislation before they came to the floor. basically, everyone left the capitol saturday afternoon, feeling like, okay, this got done, but what's the deal with the speaker. matt gaetz said he's going to file the motion to vacate the chair. and the math problem becomes how does mccarthy hang on? well, this has been a republican problem, a republican mess. the thing i'm fascinated by all of this, democrats hold almost all the cards. if there's anything but a four-vote gap for mccarthy, democrats get to decide, whether they want to throw him overboard. and what price do they extract for either of those options. that's the big story this week. it's something we haven't seen in the house for 100 years give or make. it will be fascinating for everybody. >> fascinating or depressing, depending on your point of view. garrett, let's talk about one thing that was conspicuously absent from the deal, that's any money for ukraine. the white house and democrats alike in the senate saying we still want this. what guarantees could we have? what could change whether the funding for ukraine becomes a separate measure or part of the next one perhaps? if mccarthy got this out of the deal, who's to say that the next will include it? >> reporter: well, that ukraine money can be part of what the democrats extract for mccarthy keeping his gavel. that's one of the things they discussed. the other thing that ukraine has going for it has a huge republican champion in mitch mcconnell. probably nobody in the party on either side, talks more about backing ukraine than mcconnell. getting the senate looks a lot easier when the minority leader is for it. so, really, it's a matter of just kind of jamming mccarthy who says he's, you know, for foreign aid and wants to tie it to border security or whoever his successor may be. one chamber problem is an easier one to solve than two. i think this is also one of the reasons why conservatives are not trusting mccarthy at this point, by the way. matt gaetz is saying, look, you cut a side deal on this. we don't know whether that's true or not. how is that is interesting to watch as well. although, i do think the fact there's a significant block of 80-plus votes probably in the senate for moving ukraine, puts a lot of pressure on the house to figure out something. whether it's in a stand alone bill or the next cliff over thanksgiving. >> nbc news correspondent garrett haake, thank you for your reporting. we appreciate it. attorney general merrick garland got a bit choked up in an interview with "60 minutes" while discussing what he says are his gravest concerns facing the country. particularly as judges and prosecutors assigned to donald trump's cases receive death threats. >> people can argue with each other as much as they want and as vociferously as they want. the one thing they may not do is use violence or threats of violence to alter the outcome. the important aspect of this is the american people themselves. american people must protect each other. they must ensure that they treat each other with civility and kindness, listen to opposing views. argue as vociferously as they want. but refrain from threats of violence. that's the only way this democracy will survive. >> why do you feel so strongly about that? >> well, i've seen it from a number of instances and number of things that i've seen. but for my own family who fled religious persecution in europe and some members who did not survive when they got to the united states. the united states protected them. it guaranteed that they could practice their religion, they to vote, they could do all of the things they wanted to do in a democracy. that's the thing in this country and many other countries. it's my responsibility, the justice department's responsibility to ensure that that difference continues, that we protect each other. >> two of your ancestors were murdered in the holocaust. >> yes. >> is that why you demoted yourself to the law? >> yes. i would say that's why i devoted myself to the rule of law, to public service. to trying to ensure that the rule of law governs this country and continues to govern this country. >> can't help but be reminded when i was in warsaw earlier this year for the 80th commemoration of the warsaw uprising, that holocaust survivor, the man who survived auschwitz, the 96-year-old stood up before a group of assembled americans and polish leaders and told americans we were all watching on january 6. and when you won on january 6 -- and he said, trust me, you won, you won, when you won on january 6, you did that not just for yourself, but for your country and for your democracy, you did that for all of us. >> yeah. >> who were watching who did not win in germany in poland across europe during the 1930s. and yet, we have this talk of violence and, katty kay, with the attorney general of the united states talking about the holocaust, with the attorney general of the united states talking about his greatest fear being violence in america, we can't help but think about the violence that donald trump unleashed on january 6. we can't help but think about the violence that donald trump talks about when he talks about the chairman of joint chiefs wanting him to be shot dead. we can't help but think of the violence that donald trump brought up this past weekend. and the crowd laughed uproariously, talking about the assault. >> that's just this past week. >> that near killed of a political opponent's spouse. that all just happened this past week. >> so, part of the healthy democracy must be that public servants can serve in office and lead office without fearing for their lives and needing security. and mark milley has already said this. he's had to take security precautions for him and his family because donald trump sent out posts saying that he should be executed. but donald trump is not the only one. before that, paul gosar, an arizona republican member of congress, sent out a tweet saying that mark milley should be hanged. so, you see this kind of ripple effects. we're talking about this earlier, the ripple effects downwards of this talk of violence being taken up by other people. it only needs to be taken up by one angry, crazy person with a gun. and public servants will start having to fear for their lives. i think i mentioned this when i interviewed dr. fauci recently, and a big chunk of the day was spent negotiating with his marshals team how we could film him walking across georgetown university campus in a way that is staff for an 83-year-old man who will now have security for the rest of his life. that's not a sign of a healthy democracy. when a public serving military officer comes out of office has to worry about somebody trying to kill them. that isn't the way things have been, or should be, in this country. >> you know, it was hard, at least for me, not to get emotional listening to merrick garland. >> your parents both fled. >> i thought immediately of my father, especially in his final weeks, because what i heard in his message is what i heard from my father and i saw in his face and i saw in the pain. these are children of immigrants who escaped authoritarians who lost family members, who grew up to be servants in this country. learned our democracy, inside and out, and know in their souls how precious it is. and how fragile it is. and how easily it slips away. and with that, chris matthews, i'll give you the final thoughts of this block. >> i kept thinking of merrick garland and what a good man he is to talk the way he did. the fact he was kept off the united states supreme court by mitch mcconnell. i just think, of all of the cases of slipshod misuse of democracy, misuse of senate power to just deny us that man, a good person off the supreme court, it would have changed so much of history. and, by the way, joe, you said something this morning, i hope the democrats are listening. i hope the democratic party is listening. there's an opportunity in this fight over mccarthy, over keeping his speakership. they should say now we're going to take the advantage. we're going to push on the immigration reform. we're going to stop this for all people coming into the country. for any reason it's a sound thing that has to be dealt with. it has to be limits on it. it's killing joe biden, i read that in the book, it's killing him up there. people don't discriminate for opportunity which everyone would want to do or because of tyranny at home. the distinction isn't lost on people. we have too many people coming into our country in the way that's broken down our system. it's got to stop. they got to reach an agreement. the best way to reach an agreement is across party lines. if republicans want to do something about the border, joe biden could say this morning, let's do something about the border. you said it first. i agree with you, we have to do it. joe has to do it for political reasons just to save his situation in places like pennsylvania because it's going to kill him if he doesn't. >> right. >> i think it's a real opportunity, as rahm emanuel used to say, take advantage of an opportunity. if a crisis comes along, do something with it. this is an opportunity for democrats to wake up and deal with the border situation right now. >> okay. >> right. and it's important, again -- >> we've got letitia james here. >> let's go to letitia james here. then we'll come back. >> -- motion for summary judgment. today, we will prove our other claims. my message is simple, no matter how powerful you are, no matter how much money you think you may have, no one is above the law. and it is my responsibility and my duty and my job to enforce it. the law is both powerful and fragile. and today in court, we'll prove our case. i thank you all for being here. and, again, justice will prevail. thank you. >> you there go, listening to new york's attorney general letitia james going in for the punishment phase in a civil trial against donald trump that she launched. a judge decided not even a trial was necessary, the evidence was so clear. now, they're walking into court to figure out how much if anything he pays. maybe up to $250 million, maybe more. and what exactly happens to all trump-owned businesses and properties. all because of what she launched. >> and there is -- there are a variety of options that the judge has before him. he's going to hear the case. >> could have a monitor on his companies. >> and obviously, going to be looking at the companies, on whether they continue to function in new york as a company. whether we many of the buildings are taken away, including the receivership. so, we'll be following all of that, jonathan lemire, the words no one is above the law. very obviously very powerful words from the new york attorney general. also, she said, the law is a powerful thing. and it is also a fragile thing. i think she's determined to show the power of the law, to hold the powerful to account when they lie, when they cheat. when they defraud creditors. >> defame. >> when they lie to -- lie to, in this case, tax officials. or they lie to banks. >> yeah, no one is above the law. the state attorney general letitia james echoing with the federal attorney general merrick garland also said in that "60 minutes" interview where he grew emotional talking about the cost of his department, the soul mission was to treat everyone fairly on the law, no matter if you're rich, powerful or poor. and in this case, that applies to donald trump in those criminal cases, who will be going to trial in the months ahead. and of course, in the civil case in its punishment phase. now, what we have discussed here is one that could really, really get at the heart of who donald trump believes that he is. his businessman, a wealthy man, new york city, his home. and the creation of his political story began there. and now, all of that, all of that, is in jeopardy in the next few weeks in a courthouse in lower manhattan. >> we'll be following it closely. chris matthews, i just want to go back very quickly. just to make sure people heard you correctly. when you said we have too many people coming into this country this way. i know you agree with me that immigration levels can be raised. we need more immigrants in this country working. we need to allow this country to continue and grow. but as you said, coming in this way, the chaos of crossing the border in this way, i always talk about, you know, the person from pakistan or from the middle east or from europe, that wants to come to the united states. who has been spending five, six, seven years trying to get here legally. well, you know, that's -- that's how people need to come to this country legally, as opposed to just seeing the border crisis, that an unprecedented rate right now, people flooding across the border right now in a way that is not controlled. in a way that is not managed. in a way that's not safe and secure for this country. so, again, people -- people in the far left that would frame that as an anti-immigrant message are just dead wrong. i'm pro-immigrant. i want more immigrants in this country. i want more refugees in this country. but i want it done the right way. and i want it done the fair way. whether you're coming from pakistan. whether you're coming from eastern europe or whether you're coming from central america. >> and i think people do expect across the political spectrum that our country has a right to control the border. it defines your country, your territory. there's nothing as inspirational as going through a naturalization ritual. when people take the oath to become americans. it is the most wonderful experience for an american to see other people joining our country of their own free will and through the law. it's wonderful. and i think everyone likes -- we're all children of immigrants. well, almost all of us, and i think we all understand that. >> chris matthews, thank you always for coming on. >> thank you, thank you. >> we appreciate your insight. we'll see you soon. house minority w.h.i.p. catherine clark joins us next on "morning joe." struggling with the highs and lows of bipolar 1? ask about vraylar. because you are greater than your bipolar 1, and you can help take control of your symptoms - with vraylar. some medicines 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media. and members of both teams. this involves donald trump and his two sons. and other members of the trump organization, who a judge found liable of massive fraud over the course of many years. this was a case brought by attorney general letitia james. the judge found it wasn't necessary to have a trial it was so evident and massive. the attorney general is asking for $250 million in the punishment phase of this. what will they have to look at who was damaged, what banks, what insurance companies. and find how much did donald trump rip them off by overestimating his assets. the size of his assets. >> you know, with these images, it's fascinating, let's come back to the shot there, katty. >> he's in the courthouse now. >> he's in the courthouse. as we look at this, katty, it's fascinating, you start hearing about the possibility of a $250 million fine against donald trump and his company. then you start asking the very real question, how much money does he have? does he have enough money? is he able to pay a $250 million fine, when you see how much he's exaggerated even the size of his own apartment. >> yeah. >> in new york city. >> by 20,000 feet. >> yeah, by 20,000 feet. it poses a very real question, is he going to be able to pay the penalties that may be coming down for him? >> yeah, we've been talking so much over the last few months about donald trump's legal problems. and this one kind of somehow almost slipped under the radar and has come up very quickly. it's a huge consequence for donald trump because it affects directly his business deals and his future potential business dealings as well. >> that's it. yeah. >> and it seems extraordinary that a real estate guy might not understand the size of his apartment. but it's worth reminding people that the allegation is this was all done so he could get better, more favorable terms on his loans. and those are the loans decided. he was doing two things at once. on the one hand, he was trying to diminish his tax bill and on the other getting better tax breaks exaggerating his tax worth. it's about size and value. then what he says, which i think is interesting, it will be interesting to see how this comes up in the trial now that he's in the courtroom. it's fascinating to see the pictures of him, of the courtroom and what it's going to be like. this idea what his counterargument is, it's all about my brand. yes, because the apartment might be small. smaller than they said. or building worth less than they said. or mar-a-lago might be worth less than they say. what prosecutors are not taking into account is the value of my brand. but is that brand quite what it used to be? >> well, no, and you can tell -- >> brand could go away. >> we talked about it last week. about how, as you went down the west side highway, you know, as we get into the presidency, there are seven or so buildings, maybe eight that had the trump name on it. those names were all torn off because his brand was so badly burnished, even one year into the house. jonathan lemire what's so fascinating about this, i mean, there's got to be dark humor for banks for creditors, for people who have worked with donald trump. over the past 30, 40 years. they've got to be looking at this going, wait a second, wait, wait. why are you just doing this now? because if you're in new york city, if you're in manhattan, you have heard from every construction operator, from -- you've heard from every bank, you've heard from everybody that's ever done business with donald trump that he defrauded them. that he immediately sues them to try to -- whether there's a legitimate claim or not. so, there are, for people outside of new york that may be looking at this going, oh, well, this is the biggest -- inside new york city -- >> this is everything he's about. >> -- this defines of the last 40, 45 years of his life. >> correct. >> 50 years in new york city, as a business person. because it's all you hear from people that have ever dealt with him. >> yeah, it's a real sense of where have you guys been to all of this for donald trump who is true politics, as a business guy, and sort of a celebrity developer, he was known to exaggerate. to cut corners, to inflate. always say things are bigger, brighter, biggest for him. and on the new york daily news, over the turn of the century in a couple of trump assignments where you knew he was dealing with flat-out falsehoods about the size of his projects because he was trying to inflate them for his financial purposes as well as for his celebrity. of course, this is because his chosen path into politics and presidency has finally led investigators to treat this with the scrutiny it has deserved for a long time. but this has been an open secret in new york city for a long time. that his initial potable brand, as america's seal, the home of the "the apprentice" all of that is mostly nonsense. >> by the way, prosecutors in new york have come under withering criticism for decades now. >> uh-huh. >> for not doing this. >> well, and what we're looking at right now i guess is the corridor where donald trump and the other players here, maybe the attorney general are going to enter the courtroom in manhattan. and this, i cannot emphasize enough what a huge deal this is because even now, trump's business dealings are all under scrutiny. a monitor is being put in place for this company. that they want to do business and have everything they do with the trump organization looked at for everyone to see. and the evidence that could come out in this punishment phase could really bring home, again, what you were were just talking about, what people have been saying about donald trump for decades. >> way before he got into politics. >> well before he got into politics. we'll keep the pictures up and see what happens. also it's just news that a former president is now coming in for his -- i don't know -- fifth trial. >> the penalty phase already found liable. let's bring in house minority w.h.i.p. katherine clark from massachusetts. she wrote a piece titled the world's oldest democracy has been hijacked by extremists. congresswoman, talk about it. >> yeah, thank you for having me, and what we're seeing is really a split screen here between the real threats that donald trump represents to democracy. and how the house gop has adopted that. they have showed us time and time again, under the leadership of kevin mccarthy, that his allegiance and theirs are to donald trump. and the american people are completely left out of it. and this really is a dangerous time for our democracy. and what we're seeing in the house is equally dangerous. house democrats have come together time and again, fighting to protect social security, veterans benefits. our public schools. we're fighting for reproductive freedom. and the american people, every time they go to the polls, they tell us that they want us to keep this fight up. and what we've seen here is a lack of leadership, as kevin mccarthy pursues his title and power over everything else. >> congresswoman, do you think kevin mccarthy will survive as speaker? do you think he should survive as speaker? and if he goes is there a republican that you feel democrats could work with more effectively? >> well, what we've seen from kevin mccarthy is that he is untrustworthy. back in may, we had a manufactured default crisis where the house was willing -- the house republicans were willing to take us to the edge of economic disaster and a global recession. they made a deal. kevin mccarthy signed that deal. 314 of us voted to approve it in a bipartisan way. the ink wasn't dry before kevin mccarthy was back to catering to the extremists. that is what he does. because his focus is about keeping his speakership. and not about making progress for americans at home. so, we are going to see how this plays out this week. we will come together as a family in the democratic caucus to talk about whatever is presented to us. on a motion to vacate. any -- you know, any outreach that we may see. but we're going to evaluate that in realtime with the values that we keep bringing. let's go to middle class. let's continue to help people lower their costs. let's make the investments for democrats that president biden did in the 117th congress with the investments in infrastructure, the c.h.i.p.s. and science act. >> right. >> historic investment in climate change. reducing the costs of insulin. >> yep. >> this is the progress we need to continue. >> house minority w.h.i.p. congresswoman katherine clark, thank you for being on, on this busy morning, we appreciate it. and we'll be back in just a moment. we're watching these live pictures in the courthouse in manhattan, before donald trump will be facing the punishment phase of a trial. that already has landed a verdict in terms of finding him liable for massive fraud. and this, of course, was launched by new york attorney general letitia james. we are waiting for everybody to enter the courtroom for the proceedings to begin. we'll be watching this. we'll be right back with more "morning joe." a lot of news to get to, but once again we're fleeing the breaking news in manhattan right now inside a court houses where we're waiting for donald trump to enter the courtroom. new york's attorney general is also inside the courthouse. she launched a massive fraud claim against the former president which she won. the first phase of it has already been decided by a judge who said no need for a trial. way too much yous evidence. donald trump completely exaggerating the size of his assets. >> and we're looking right now at a shot as the attorney general walks through this area. that's why the cameras are pointed that direction. they expect donald trump, too in a few minutes. whether he does, in fact, do that -- >> this is the punishment phase of the trial. >> it could go up to $250 million. the possible seizure of many of his properties in new york as well as his inability for he or his family to conduct business there in the near future. let's move on. if anything changes, we'll let you know. on friday we had democratic presidential candidate robert f. kennedy jr. posting on social media he's going to make a major announcement next monday in philadelphia. he didn't reveal much more than that. but media eye is reporting that he's going do run as an independent. the impact a third party candidate would have on the 2024 race is something that has been keeping our next guest up at night. cnbc founder and editor at large of "newsweek" tom rogers joining us. talking about the, quote, strange scenario that could put donald trump back in office. you say a third party run could be an existential threat to our democracy. explain. >> well, this disgraceful defendant we're waiting to come into the courtroom i think has a path back into the presidency which we should all be extraordinarily concerned about. the path is a major third party run. i don't think robert f. kennedy jr. is that. i think he will be a fringe player in the end of the day. but the group no labels, which we've talked about before, mounting a well-funded effort on 50 ballots with prominent candidates that are moderate i think is going to pose a path for donald trump to come back. the nbc poll last week which showed with unnamed candidates 14% of the electorate was very prepared to support an independent effort which resulted in donald trump winning the popular vote and, of course, if he wins the popular vote he swings the swing states and he's back in the white house. there's another scenario that is a secondary one, not so likely, which would involve -- and this is something that the essence of the column is about. what if that third party candidate, because of defecting republicans who have just had it with donald trump, and independents which polls are showing are totally dissatisfied with both the biden and trump candidacies, in two or three swing states, the well-funded, prominent no labels effort results in that candidate winning two or three states and nobody wins the electoral college. >> tom, president biden over the weekend for the first time addressed the possibility of a no labels candidate. he said obviously anyone has a right to run if they'd like. he did suggest that such a bid would help donald trump. i know you talk to democrats all the time about this. what is their level of alarm and the lack of enthusiasm for another widen bid? >> i think they're very well aware of the threat and very concerned about it. i haven't heard an answer to it because i don't think anybody believes that third party candidacy of a unity ticket of a prominent democrat and republican who are moderate would do anything than drain many more votes from biden than from trump. the issue i'm focused on, and this comes down to a group i'm a part of called keep our republic with former majority leader dick gephardt, former senator tim werth and others where we try to suss out stress points of the democrats. it is possible, although not realistic at this point, but i think it will grow in realism of that third party candidacy potentially winning a couple states and there being no winner in the electoral college. it's in the house of representatives then and donald trump wins. what can democratic do to avoid that scenario. >> katty. >> tom, it looks like there's a chance that you've already got one democratic running to primary joe bidenment it looks like there might be another one if congressman dean phillips decides to jump into the race. stepped down from leadership over the weekend. what impact would that have on joe biden? >> if joe biden wasn't the candidate, i think the no labels effort would fizzle. i think they're very focused on providing a choice if it's a re-run of a trump/biden canned see. that's where the third party threat becomes very real, very significant. if it did come to this being thrown into the house of representatives because a third party candidate wins a couple votes, then you have a deal between the no labels ticket and the biden ticket trying to avoid it going into the house of representatives by coming to zoom deal before december 15th when the electoral college meets. that's a really tough issue with all kind of conflict, people claiming the election would be stolen if there was some kind of deal there. again, stress to the democracy, we've got to be pointed and folk cud on that. >> the new piece on "newsweek." tom rogers, thank you. all eyes on this courthouse in manhattan, new york. they're waiting for donald trump to enter the courtroom. he's going to be facing a judge for the punishment phase of the massive fraud trial that was launched -- the lawsuit was launched by new york's attorney general. let's talk about the judge he's going to be dealing with. the judge didn't even need a trial for this liability to be found. they're looking at up to $250 million in payments. this judge found that trump lived in a fantasy world as it pertained to his assets and was very frustrated at how the trump people tried to drag things out. we'll be following this. that does it for us this morning. we'll see you tomorrow. ana cabrera picks up the coverage in two minutes. a pickse coverage in two minutes. i'd like to tell you about a cashew farmer from mozambique named carlos. carlos lifted himself out of poverty with the help of techoserve. go to technoserve.org and see how you can support struggling farmers like carlos. it's a different way to make a difference. it's just ability 10:00. we want to take you live to the courthouse where donald trump's civil fraud trial is about to get under way. he's there now. let's dip in. >> donald trump's civil fraud trial getting under way any moment now inside this manhattan courthouse. the former president you can see is on site. he and his entourage arrived several minutes ago. at the crux of this trial are the allegations that he, his sons and his family empire committed fraud by manipulating property values to their benefit for years. here is new york attorney general leticia james just minutes ago. >> donald trump and the other defendants have committed persistent and repeated fraud. last week we proved that in our motion for summary judgment. today we will prove our other claims. my message is simple. no matter how powerful you are,

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