county, georgia. and it is a doozy. the first co-defendant in donald trump's election interference case, that rico case that charged a criminal enterprise, has flipped. scott hall is in atlanta -- an athlete-area bail bondsman. he's accused of being involved in the plan to steal sensitive election data in coffey county. he faces seven charges in the fulton case. and now again we just learned he's taking a plea deal. let's bring in greg blue stein with the "atlanta journal constitution "and former acting assistants attorney general for national security mary mccord. the reverend al sharpton joins our coverage, as well. greg, i feel like this attempt to steal sensitive election data in coffey county never garnered the national attention that it deserved considering how essential it was to trump's plot to overturn his defeated georgia. but take us inside first the significance of a guilty plea, and second his role in that criminal enterprise charged by d.a. fannie willis. >> you're right, scott hall was one of the more surprising figures who was even indicted a few weeks ago by fann i willis, the district attorney. the effort to turn up evidence of election fraud has been a side element of this entire prosecution. the call to brad raffensperger, to brian kemp, the call to other trump officials to subvert the will of georgia voters has gotten a lot more attention than this effort in tiny rural georgia, tiny coffey county, to find evidence of election fraud and to gain access to sensitive voter data has been a secondary act here. but it is very important. scott hall now becomes the first defendant in the fulton county election interference trial to take a plea deal with prosecutors. >> let me read from "the washington post" reporting which did some fantastic reporting on mr. hall. "post" reported this -- "scott hall, a bail bonds man from the augusta area, quotes, has been looking into the election on behalf of the president, the georgia republican party chairman told his officials in a november 20th email reviewed by "the washington post." hall was doing so, added the chairman, quote, at the request of david bossy, the republican operative, onetime deputy trump campaign manager, chairman of the conservative activist group citizens united, and a relative of hall's." it seems that hall, while not household name, does directly tie the trump campaign and based on this "post" reporting, donald trump to the criminal enterprise that's been charged. >> yeah, look, he could help prosecutors, but not only the effort to turn up evidence about what happened in coffey county, but also, you know, prosecutors allege that he was directly involved in pressuring officials that he was letting it be known to republicans here in georgia that he was an agent of the trump campaign. so he could also help them turn up evidence over whether -- how deeply the plot went to pressure election officials and others in georgia to subvert the will of voters, so he could help them on dual fronts here. >> mary mccord, i want to bring you in on this. i mean, the other parts of the plot that have been charged involve the more familiar household names, the sidney powell who wanted the president to name her special counsel, that executive order that involved seizing election equipment, seizing voting machines first by using the pentagon, a plan too crazy even for rudy giuliani, so then they were going to ask the department of homeland security to do it instead. i want to read little bit more of how hall fit into the trump campaign and the white house plot to steal the election from this fantastic piece of reporting that we have in "the washington post" from september of this year. hall was part of a cadre of trump loyalists who allegedly descended on georgia's coffey county, population 43,000, to gain access to sensitive election data. he later boasted of his efforts say, quote, we scanned every freaking ballot. his alleged actions are detailed in the indictment brought last month by the fulton county district attorney, fani willis, against hall, trump, and 17 other defendants. the indictment portrays the bondsman who makes his living by posting bail for defendants in exchange for a fee as more central to trump's efforts to cling to power than previously known." the "post" writes, "this hall, 59, emerges as key not only to the alleged breach of voting equipment in remote coffey county, the secretive effort to under up evidence of fraud, but also to the plot that played out in washington to strong-arm states and to disregarding the will of voters reporting biden's win." the effort to manufacture evidence that didn't exist of fraud was something that we know from cassidy hutchinson's brand-new book. we know from mark meadows' texts and communications with doj officials. we know it was central to everything trump wanted to do. what is the possible significance of someone like mr. hall pleading guilty today? >> well, i think a lot of it has to do with really how much he knows. and whether he's going to be, you know, able to provide fani willis, assuming that cooperation is part of this, and i haven't seen the plea agreement, this reporting has just broken. maybe you know the answer to that, but i assume there's some cooperation involved. and if so, you know, what all is he able to deliver. as you indicated, he has been sorts of, you know, a player in this that hasn't gotten a lot of attention. and you know, maybe something of, frankly, a grifter, somebody who really wanted to be part of this plot, and so has found a way to get himself into any bit of it that he could including the coffey county attempts. it's unclear to me so far, again because it is just so breaking, how much he might have that really ties much more closely to the white house. that paragraph you read right earlier on in the top of the hour certainly there's assertions in the fulton county indictment about his connections to the campaign. but they're connections that he was self-reporting to others. so i still think it's -- obviously could be extremely useful, or it could be a little bit more minimally useful just depending on how much actual directs contact he had with the trump campaign and the trump white house. >> we'll pull the curtain back on our work here. lisa rubin is adjusting her audio. i think she's been able to listen along. you have become our breaking news go-to as this was breaking, i heard reports that you were racing to the studio. i hate to not give you a minute to make sure you're plugged in. what can you tell us about this guilty plea? >> i think the guilty plea is kbroerd nearly significant for the october 23rd trial first and foremost. scott hall's charges are completely overlapping with those against sidney powell. and given that this october 23rd trial, although the district attorney's office has said they are going to need to prove the entirety of the rico plot, obviously the particular charges against ken chesebro and sidney powell will take the starring role here. scott hall's charges being completely overlapping with those against powell puts him in a unique position to be an extraordinarily effective witness against her. recall also that her lawyers have been saying the evidence against her, that there's a posity in the discovery and therefore what he has to say in terms of his firsthand knowledge and interactions with folks may be more important than any document discovery that they've been handed by the d.a. or the d.a. has been able to cultivate during the period of her investigation. >> i mean, that he was involved in what is -- hard to describe any piece of the coup plot as more insidious than the other, but one of the incredibly insidious aspects was trying to break into the election equipment in coffey county. that feels like it could unlock a whole bunch of things for the co-defendants. >> it could unlock a bunch of stuff. and scott hall -- i heard greg bluestein say to you that scott hall may have some other knowledge, as well. in particular, he is not a person i understand to have been a citizen, a resident of coffey county. on the contrary, he flew coffey county. and one of the aspects of the indictment that's in front of me -- i'm sorry for our viewers that i have this incredibly dog-eared and marked up indictment -- but one of the things that they describe is how he flew to dekalb, peachtree airport, from dekalb, sorry, to douglas municipal airport in coffey county, and that somebody else, kathy latham, one of the other co-defendants, went to go pick him up. that's an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy, according to this indictment. scott hall was brought in from the outside to assists in this breach of the voting equipment data just as sidney powell was, and what he has to say about his interactions with her, their interactions collectively with sullivan strickler which we've seen on the d.a.'s witness list, that's also momentous, i think will be interesting to see. >> i mean, it always starts with one, right? when chris christie talks about donald trump going to bed every single night afraid of the clink of a prison cell door, i always find it somewhat farfetched that either, one, that's true, or, two, he's afraid of it. this is how it starts. >> it always starts with one, and the potential i think they've laid out what he can be a key witness in. but i think the potential now is that others that were involved in this may begin to have second thoughts. if you know you engaged with hall and hall has now turned and pleaded guilty and is going to testify, you may see somebody -- first of all, we've seen this week trump, a judge saying he's guilty of mass fraud. here we're talking about fraud in terms of an election. now you have somebody involved that flew in to engage in this behavior. you might start seeing people flip like my grandmother's pancakes down in alabama. >> i want to come back to you, greg. again, there are other aspects of the attempt to overturn donald trump's defeat in georgia that as you mentioned get a lot more airtime, the call with brad raffensperger, famously and justifiably. the smears that forever altered slash destroyed the lives of shay moss and ruby freeman about a nonexistent usb drive that was, as we all know now, a ginger mint. again, this plot to break into -- and i forgot this detail about flying to this remote part of the state. just tell me more about what we understand about the break-in of the election equipment in coffey county, georgia. >> i think we hear a lot more about those other attempts because we've seen them with our very eyes. we've heard the testimony, we've heard that famous phone call. coffey county is a remote county of just a few thousand people in southwest georgia outside of a major media market, you know. but this is -- this is a key part of the case with allegations that four of the co-defendants played a role in copying sensitive voter data and then trying to essentially cover it up. but they were caught also on surveillance video going in and out of the coffey county elections board. and there was a -- there was documentation that scott hall boasted about getting a lot of this sensitive data that they copied every record they wanted to copy in furtherance of this plot to try to undermine georgia's election and purport -- falsely purport that the coffey county election was fraudulent. by the way, coffey county is also unique because it is a deep red county. it is a counties that donald trump won -- a county that donald trump won by an overwhelming margin. not a swing county in georgia. this is a deeply republican rural county where donald trump's allies were trying to show that he deserved to win the county by even more than he won it, i guess. >> do you remember -- i remember that it was a big trump county, but it seemed significant to fannie willis' investigation because there was no reason -- trump had won by such a sizable margin, there was no reason to look for fraud there. one, there was no evidence of it, two, doj didn't find any. this was one of the things that the u.s. attorney in georgia didn't -- hard to private a negative, didn't find that there wasn't any fraud. but tell me, do you have the origin story? i mean, was this offered up to the trump campaign, or is it your understanding that this was conceived by trump's supporters and surrogates? >> remember, at the time this was happening, we even in the media were getting all sorts of complaints and all sorts of allegations hurled by election -- republican figures all over georgia, and most of them were coming from deep red parts of the state. actually most of them i was hearing were coming from the northern part of the state, some of the biggest bastions of republican voters. in this case, the trump -- trump's allies i think kind of took hold and took root and followed through on it. but to me, this wasn't even unique because we were getting emails all the time and calls all the time about purported election fraud happening in other -- i don't want to name them, but other republican-controlled counties all over the northern part of the state. i think it was just unique that trump's campaign and trump's allies followed through on those claims. >> i want to pull some of the family threads through here. again, david bossy, maybe not a household name, but at one point he was a senior political operative in trump world. bossy and mr. hall, let me recap the breaking news. as we came on the air we learned that the first trump rico defendant has pleaded guilty, has taken a plea agreement. bail bondsman scott hall, central to the effort to break into election equipment in coffey county, georgia, a deep red part of the state of georgia, has become the first defendant in the fulton county election interinterference case to take a -- interference case to take a plea agreement with prosecutors in fulton county. he pleaded guilty to five counts of conspiracy to commit intentional interference with the performance of election duties. what do we know about the cooperation agreement with him? >> i don't know what we know about the cooperation agreement right now, nicole, because i don't think we know very much. as we have been talking, scott hall and his attorney have been in front of judge scott mcafee taking that guilty plea. at some point that -- >> was that on camera? >> it office camera. it's actually over zoom. one of the unique features of the fulton county superior court is that all of these proceedings are oftentimes over zoom you can see them in the hallway, there's a pooling agreement that allows us to show that. it's on youtube, well. i was actually watching it. >> are we able to pull that down, control room? they're skirting the wings on that 35,000 feet and question. >> absolutely. >> we'll try to find that. that's fascinating. >> you know, there's something else that i want to point our viewers to about this scheme that i think is important. and you were asking what were they trying to find in coffey county. i'm not sure i can answer that with certainty, but when they were doing it is important, too. in the indictment, the allegations are after january 6th is when the breach happened, and it happened repeatedly on, theth, on the 10th, the 11th, and the 13th day of january, and again on the 18th and the 19th, again in on the 25th, 26th, what were they doing well into january including after the inauguration, but perhaps trying to get an understanding of how dominion voting systems' machines worked in furtherance of their idea that a widespread, nationwide fraud had occurred that was certainly wasn't unique to coffey county, didn't affect the results as you noted in coffey county. but they were perhaps trying to get an understanding of machines that they could then share with people in other states, including, for example, in arizona where the audit that was memorably held was starting to get under way. >> yeah. i mine, mary, i want to come -- i know that jack smith has strategically charged a very narrow case against a single defendant named donald trump. but this does plug into the national scheme, as lisa rubin is reporting. patrick burn, the guy known as the overstock guy in a lot of the january 6th select committee congressional testimony, this is reporting from "the washington post," quote, patrick burn, the former chief executive of the internet retailer overstock.com, said he was at the trump hotel in washington in late december, 2020, when he received a call from hall. quote, he told me he was a bail bondsman in georgia, burns said. he became a leading purveyor of trump's baseless claims of voter fraud. hall, quote, had a large network of people such as a man in that position would have, burn said, including private detectives, cyber experts, and people burn referred to as snitches. he goes on to talk about being in the oval office on december 18th. quote, in which foreign actors were blamed for swinging the election, and trump mulled over a plan to seize voting machines. burn came to refer to hall as, quote, our man in georgia. a label he uses for the bail bondsman in his self-published book about the election. i wonder if you have pleaded guilty in a state case if what you plead to and what you then share as parts of a cooperation agreement is ever of interest to someone like jack smith. >> of course it would be, and you know, i don't know whether fani willis and her team talked with jack smith and his team before doing any of this. we've taked in the past about -- talked in the past about they'll want to keep their cases somewhat separate so that they don't get accused, you know, of politically collaborating together and concluding together. you know -- colluding together. you know, that buzzword that gets tossed around. i do think that jack smith will be interested in what mr. hall has to say. and so as lisa already indicated, he will be no doubt testifying at the end of october i've seen since we've been on the air that there is an explicit provision in the plea agreement that he will testify truthfully. that will give jack smith some sense of the scope of what he's prepared to testify to. and then i think at the minimum they'll want to talk to him. again, it's not clear to me how high up the chain he can directly connect because based on what you read he's connecting with peter burn, himself sorts of a fringe figure who seemed to be kind of a hanger on, who really wanted to be part of the inner circle movers and shakers, and certainly he did do some of that. i mean, he was, you know, at the white house at various times. he was also, as you may recall, and this is really getting to a whole other stage of things, he was also alleged in the house select committee report to have paid for some of the air fare, i think for enrique tareo, to come to washington, d.c. so peter burn was into all kinds of -- i mean washington, d.c., you know, for some of the events that took place even before january 6th. so he's been involved in all kinds of interesting ways, let's say, in the effort to overturn the will of the people. and so how much scott hall actually knows that he has his own personal knowledge of will be of tremendous interest to jack smith. >> well, and one of the people who was definitely under scrutiny, lisa, is jeffrey clark, the doj environmental lawyer-turned-acting attorney general for about one to three hours, not clear how long. and well is also in "the washington post" reporting about mr. hall, hall placed another call, this time to jeffrey clark who had been an environmental lawyer and a midlevel justice department official until he was named acting chief of the civil division in the summer of 2020. while other justice department leaders refused to pursue the claims of fraud, jeffrey clark sought to put the weight of federal law enforcement behind the president's bid to stay in power. that's according to congressional investigators and the federal indictment of trump secured by special counsel jack smith which describes clark as co-conspirator four. hall's input was critical to jeffrey clark's plans. the indictment in fulton county does not describe what the men discussed during the 63-minute phone call, but an interview conducted by the senate judiciary committee with richard donahue, the acting u.s. deputy attorney general, as well as handwritten notes taken by donahue shed some light on the nature of the conversation. on the same day this call with hall, clark met with donahue and others and urged them to send letters to officials in georgia declaring that the justice department had reason to doubt the legitimacy of the 2020 election and encouraging them to send an alternate slate of pro-trump electors. i mean, hall seems to tie jeffrey clark, mark meadows, and donald trump right to the federal role, the federal government's role in the fake electors plots. >> he sure does. i'm astonished in some respects to hear that. other thing i was thinking as you were reading that is jeffrey clark sent an email to rich donahue in which in addition to proposing the letter he said he wanted a briefing with a director of the national intelligence who at that time was john ratcliff. he suspected chinese interference with the voting data. that could also have been something that scott hall sort of gave and fed to jeffrey clark during that 63-minute phone call in late december of 2020. >> i mean, greg bluestein, i'm thinking of fani willis' conservative judgment in terms of all the people that the special grand jury had recommended indicting and passed on and how this list of 18 which sounds like an not wieldy number of people to bring to trial at once, people on which she most certainly felt she had the goods. hall is on that list, and today he has flipped on the other defendants. >> you know, remember, the special grand jury which we just found out a few weeks ago actually recommended charges against more than 30 defendants including former u.s. senators kelly loeffler and david perdue here in georgia which would have been enormous news pitically here in the state of georgia around the nation. as we were talking, i got a text from someone close to scott hall who said you didn't speculate too much on his motivations, but one thing the source did say was that one thing that was key to scott hall's deal is anything that could help him stay in his job as a bail bondsman. it seems that by pleading to these misdemeanor charges, he might still be able to continue on as a bail bondsman in georgia. that's one snippet i just learned a few minutes ago. >> well, it's interesting, rights, people always have their own personal motivations that aren't always clear from the distance. that is really interesting. i want to read the -- bit of reporting from our colleagues covering this. in the first plea deal related to the fulton county election interinterference case against donald trump and 18 others, defendant scott hall has pleaded guilty and sentenced to five years of probation. the impromptu hearing was held this afternoon before judge scott mcafee who sentenced hall to the following -- five years probation, one year for each count, a $1,000 fine for each count for a total of $5,000, no involvement in activities regarding polling or administration of elections, a written letter of apology to the state of georgia, 200 hours of community service, no communication with victims, witnesses, media, or co-defendants. there are no travel restrictions while on probation. he must testify truthfully in all future proceedings. a recorded statement which has already been provided to the state, and probation can be converteded to 2.5 years assuming no violations. what i want to ask is about the recorded statement which has been provided to the state. any chance we'll see that? >> there's a possibility that if scott hall is going to be a trial witness, which we all suspect, that that would have to be turned over to the defendants as a prior statement of a trial witness so that they can properly prepare for cross-examination and to impeach him. and of course it helps prosecutors keep him on the straight and narrow by ensuring that his trial testimony adheres to that recorded statement. but nicole, the two most important things are what you just zeroed in on, that he's going to have to testify truthfully, and that they have a recorded statement from him which has already been provided to the state. you know, scott hall's also making me think something else about this far-reaching rico case. there are a number of us who have sort of criticized and poo-poo'd the case with the neat indictment against donald trump. but of course, the fact that there are people in this indictment like scott hall who are degrees of distance away from donald trump is what is allowing fani willis to exploit his desire to make a living again, to cooperate with the senate, and potentially provide evidence against people higher up in the food chain. that is the magic of a rico case as opposed to some of the downsides that we've been exploring on your show and others. >> i mean, i think there's a brilliance to fani willis' strategy in this. and i think that back to, you know, what donald trump doesn't count on is that there's someone who isn't going to waits for eight, 12 years, for the magic pocket pardon he plans to hand out to mark meadows and steve bannon and everybody who appears willing to go to jail for him. >> there are many that are not going to do that. and when you see examples every day, if you're scott hall, if donald trump wouldn't help rudy giuliani with money, does he think he's going to help him? >> correct. >> get a lawyer? i mean, and then you see guys in the -- proud boys getting 22 years in jail, 18 years in jail. the whole climate that d.a. willis operated and jack smith operated has changed as more and more has become obvious. i think that many people were critical, some of us anxious about what is fani willis doing, she appears by the day to be more deliberate and more brilliant as a prosecutor than we gave her credit for. >> 18 people are a lot of people to bank on paying legal bills, never working again as a bail bondsman, going to jail if need be for donald trump. with your intimate knowledge of your dog eared indictment, doesn't look too much better than that, who else do you think she would be targeting for an agreement? >> i think that -- look, i don't know who else is in discussions with the d.a.'s office, and we should assume that there are others who may be in those discussions, and that they have progressed. if i were a betting person, i would say jenna ellis is a person who is right for those discussions. she has time and again indicated her dissatisfaction with the former president. she has endorsed somebody else in the presidential race. she feels abandoned by trump world and is struggling with her legal bills, turning to a gofundme to get her this far to date, and is probably still struggling under the weight of those. so i think jenna ellis could be a linchpin here. certainly her work with among other people rudy giuliani and her access to trump, her proximity to sidney powell even, may make her a very attractive target if i were prosecutors. >> i mean, talk about making trump anxious, when sidney powell is deemed too crazy even for trump, jenna ellis steps in to -- call it a breach in that world? i guess we do. greg and lisa, thank you for jumping literally running to your cameras to be parts of our breaking news coverage. we grateful. mary mccord sticks around with us as does the rev. when we come back, republicans are taking the u.s. government to the brink. a shutdown is looking more and more likely. we'll talk with one congressman choosing to stay on with federal workers for being a paycheck along with the millions of americans who would lose their take-home pay should the government shut down. texas democrat colin allred will be our guest. plus, washington, d.c., lost an icon today. california's senator dianne feinstein, flags at the capitol and at the white house and in san francisco are lowered today to honor the tremendous life and legacy of the late senator. we'll talk about her long list of accomplishments and what it was like to know hear personally. and a look at next weengs huge starts to the ex-president's very busy trial schedule. kicks off in a big way monday morning at 10:00. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. after a quick break. ith golo in just eight months. golo has really taught me how to eat better and feel better. as long as you eat the right food groups in 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close. some military cemeteries will, as well. there will be potential disruptions at food banks and meals on wheels. thinking about getting married in d.c.? forget about it. they won't issue marriage licenses in a shutdown. the list of real-world consequences goes on and on and on. we'll note one thing that will move forward during the shutdown, however, that sm impeachment inquiry into president joe biden. nbc news has confirmed republican congressman james comer and jim jordan had deemed their staffs on the oversight and judiciary committees, quote, essential workers, end quote. so you know, they're okay. make no mistake, all of this is happening for one reason -- because in highly predictable fashion, house speaker kevin mccarthy is a hostage of the most extreme and bizarre members of his own caucus. he empowered them in order to win the speakership, to easily strip him of that speakership, and he's acting just like that's the case. let's get to it with nbc news capitol hill correspondent ali vitali. have things improved at all from that bleak picture we were able to depict when we came on the air? >> reporter: nope, we're still seemingly in the on, bill here. -- abyss here. republicans are huddled once again in a conference-wide meeting about what the path forward might look like. we know that the house has reached this impasse, though, multiple times over the course of the last tucks. we all -- few weeks. we all know they were going to be barreling toward this date. there were multiple different paths that they could have taken, but honestly, it feels like most of those paths would have landed them right in the position that they're in right now which is that they were able to put up -- put a continuing resolution on the floor this afternoon, but more than 20 members of the republican conference chose to band together and tank that. and so now they are once again behind closed doors trying to figure out what comes next. there's something interesting also happening, though, on the other side of this building, in the senate. we know that there's a plan from senator chuck schumer and others to try to move forward on their own version of a continuing resolution. that's not able to be done in what would be called speedy fashion because not all 100 senators were on board for that. but what's happening right now is some of the more conservative senators, people like ron johnson, rick scott, and others, are meeting to try to see if there's any appetite to do a two-week clean continuing resolution which is to say no disaster relief money, no ukraine aid, just trying to buy themselves some time so they have an extra two weeks to do the rest of the appropriations packages. what i'm also told is that democrats will object to that, and so it once again leaves us in a place where there's no clear path forward on either side of this building, and that's a real problem when september 30th is your deadline. there was something constructive in my conversation, we've had several with speaker mccarthy. i want to play this of me asking what would happen if what happened on the floor played out that the continuing resolution tanked and left them at an imagain. >> trying to keep the government open. seems like you think the dreams going to shut it down. >> reporter: it sounds like they -- that's what the congressmen are saying. >> they want to stand with biden and not protect the border? >> reporter: i don't know where they want to stand. >> that's the way i read that vote. >> reporter: it's instructive what speaker mccarthy said there. than he dodged on the substance of the question, which is what's the next strategy because clearly that's something they're hashing out now, but it's instructive that he tried to say that those who would vote against his plan within his conference are siding with biden. mccarthy has in recent days tried to put this at the feet of the white house despite the fact that we're largely in this position because of fighting within the republican conference. but the fact that he's trying to now say that if you're not with him you're with biden, it is a sign of how he might be trying to maneuver this politically or how he might go into his conference and say, look, i have exhausted every strategy, what more can we do here? >> amazing. i know this will make me sound old but i remember when cutting off meals for kids breakfast and lunch would avoid getting here. we're ten train stops past that. this doesn't have a buffer that would start monday. thank you for your extraordinary reporting from that place. colin allred is running against cruz for senate next year. congressman, your thoughts on not how we got here, i think that's clear. we covered it live, all 15 votes. how do we get out of it? >> yeah. well, you wouldn't trust this drew run a two-car parade. >> no. >> i don't know, you know, how we get out of this. i know that it's likely that the senate will send us a bipartisan continuing resolution that will probably get north of 300 votes on the house floor, and the speaker has to let us vote on that. but let's be clear, this is the extreme maga republicans' shutdown here in the house. and i've heard some people sdlieb as kind of like -- describe this as a "seinfeld" shutdown, it's not about anything. it's becoming more clear what they want to do. they want to splash social security, they want to cut funding for public schools, they want to pursue culture wars like criminalizing abortion care. that's what they're trying to do. while many of us, democrats and republicans alike, do want to move forward, keep the government open, understand we're not going to get everything in this deal. we can do that. we have to have the speaker allow us to do it. >> what do you make of ali vitali's reporting that kevin mccarthy, i don't know how this goes, my enemy is my big, fat enemy i guess, saying if you're against this bill you're with biden s. that going to work? >> well, listen, they have these extremists on his side that he has empowered. they're the ones media the deal with to become the speaker in the first place. and in many ways this is just the story of infighting within the republican caucus. i'll say this -- democrats, a lot of my colleagues, we are willing to not get everything we want to try and reach across the aisle to try and find a way to keep the government open, to avoid some of the terrible outcomes that you were talking about there. they want to talk about border security. doing this is going to force border control agents to work without pay. they want to talk about controlling spending, let's talk about how to do that in a responsible way. let's not shut down the government and hurt so many folks who are relying on us. and i have to point out, nicole, in the senate when they passed their continuing resolution when it's coming to us, only 19 senators were voting against that. ted cruz is one. that's why in texas we've got to get rid of him. >> i wonder if you can speak to how as a candidate in that race this becomes something really easy to understand. i feel like shutdowns are one of the stories that a lot of people out of washington just shut off. but it's a massive story with extraordinary, devastating implications for -- air traffic controllers have to go work, but you tell me how you work when you're not getting paid. i know you're giving up your bay in solidarity with federal workers. but it's dangerous. it's reckless. and in some ways we've lowered the bar so far, you know it doesn't get all the attention deserves. what is -- what is the best way to communicate with your constituents and the public about how dangerous this version of the republican party is? >> yeah. one of the saddest things i've had to do in congress was during the last shutdown in 2019, was handing out food to tsa agents as they were going to work. they were going to work. because most federal agents or most -- many federal employees work paycheck to paycheck. and i want folks out there to understand that it doesn't have to be this way. we understand that we're here in a position of divided government, that the republicans are -- for the moment have a narrow majority in the house, have a narrow democratic majority in the senate. we need to be able to work together. but you have to have folks who are willing to do that, you have to have leaders in place who understand that they're going to have to reach across the aisle and work with democrats in some cases or in our case work with republicans to keep the government open, and to do the basic things that i think folks expect from us. this is why people look at the congress and think it's so broken. because we have a handful of extremists who are allowed to control the narrative. there is another story, and as you know, there's another way, if we can get folks in place who will actually do the right thing. that's part of why i'm running against ted cruz. >> congressman colin allred, thank you for joining us in these moments of crisis. we are always grateful to get to talk to you. thank you. >> thanks. let me add to our conversation. our friend, msnbc political analyst, former senator claire mccaskill. again, i said to the congressman, we all know how we got here, we worsted it live. 15 -- covered it live. 15 failed votes. speaker mccarthy gave away everything that empowered him to lead. that's part of how we got here. and arsonist says members of his caucus. i want your expert also in of how we get out of it and when. >> yeah. here's what i think they're doing. i think they're trying to get rid of mccarthy. because what they've done, these 21 people who voted no today, these 21 republicans, extreme maga republicans, at the direction of donald trump, they have decided that they want mccarthy out. they want to have that as their mark on the wall, that this is what they did. so they're saying to him you cannot keep the government open if you use democratic votes, if you do we're going to take you out. but by the way, we're never going to give you the votes to keep the government open. so it seems pretty clear to me what they want to do. never in history has a -- a speaker been removed. there was a speaker that asked for a vote just to show his strength back, you know, a long time ago. this would be history. manage would have done it. trump will take credit for it. they're already talking to tom emmer, and emmer is the whip. keep in mind how emmer got there. it was a three-way race for whip, and the way he got elected was by the votes that gaetz and biggs brought him. it was the crazy caucus that put him there. they feel like they can manipulate him more, do more with him, get more confrontations in the future. that's what they want. they're not going to get anything done. they just want the drama. they want the chaos. they want the political show. and that's all they're looking for, and part of that show i think is them wanting to get rid of mccarthy. >> i don't know if it's ironic anymore, but the plot twist is that it isn't working. the impeachment rollout was a bust. they're foolish, they clearly don't like the work of being in the majority. and yet they're -- they're trying to burn their own house down. >> well, it's not difficult for people that are foolish to appear foolish. i mean, you have a hearing around an impeachment inquiry with absolutely no evidence, with even conservatives -- >> that's not us saying it, it's them. >> them saying there's flow evidence. then you do this -- no evidence. then you do this. how do you say that we want to cut back on funding that would lead to abortions, but we're going to take food out of the mouths of children that need to eat monday? this is their only way of eating. we're pro-life but anti-children eating. we're for the feeders but not for the children? what they're doing shows the recklessness and ruthlessness of their political ambition, that they want to hang mccarthy up as an example, that this is what we'll do to you if you don't listen to us. and what do us represent? nothing but raw power and orders from a man in mar-a-lago that's facing 91 counts and four trials, and maybe the unraveling of his business empire. >> claire, i guess at this point they're not the story the rest of us is. what is -- what do we do on earth one to we'll do this reality of what the republican party is in this chamber? >> well, i was talking to really an accomplished reporter on line today that is writing about this for "the new york times." and as i said to him, the problem is, chaos and dysfunction are now in the bloodstream of american politics. injected firmly there by donald trump and his crazy caucus. so most americans are not shocked at this. they expect washington to be dysfunctional. unlike in 2018 when we had a longer shutdown, unlike in 2014 when this occurred, our phones were ringing off the hook in the capitol. people were emailing. there was way more urge see about the disaster -- urgency about the disaster and what it was going to do the economy and do to peep's lives. think of the clinical trials. people who are trying to have their lives saved by clinical trials. medical -- think about their families, how they feel today. speaking of caring about life, not only are they willing to starve kids, they're also willing to cut off clinical trials to people who maybe this is their last hope at living. so i hope that it doesn't take weeks of a shutdown for the pain to become so acute that it wakes up america. but it appears to me now that largely america's sleeping on this. >> i think that is so important, and we have to sort of crystallize what you said and come back to it next week, claire. the shutdown is not just connected from never having confirmed secretaries, it's part of the acting secretary's strategy. it's part of invalidating elections, part of invoking the insurrection. it's making nothing matter so that the window has shifted so much that everyone shrugs along as all of the democratic norms and all of the sort of tenets of working with the federal government that functions seem like novelties, that they're not normal anyway. we'll come back to that. another story we want to cover here today, though, dianne feinstein, the longest serving woman in the senate leaving behind a giant legacy. she and a small handful of female colleagues came to washington in 1992. it was later dubbed the year of the woman. they paved the way for others, like our dear friend claire, who we'll talk to more about that in and the late senator's time on the hill when we come back. >> when senator boxer and i were running, as part of my campaign slogan i used to say 2%, may be great for the fat content in milk, but it isn't so good for a woman's representation in the senate of the united states. [ applause ] united states. [ apauplse ] ♪ tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourists photographing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. that can be analyzed by ai in real time. ♪ so researchers can identify which areas are at risk. and help life underwater flourish. ♪ when you shop wayfair, you get big deals for your home - every day. underwater flourish. so big, we'll have you saying... am i a big deal? yeah you are, because it's a big deal, when you get a big deal. wayfair deals so big that you might get a big head. because with savings so real... you can get your dream sofa for half the price. wayfair. it's always a big deal. ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ ever notice how stiff clothes can feel rough on your skin? for softer clothes that are gentle on your skin, try downy free & gentle downy will soften your clothes without dyes or perfumes. the towel washed with downy is softer, and gentler on your skin. try downy free & gentle. we got the house! you did! pods handles the driving. pack at your pace. store your things until you're ready. then we deliver to your new home - across town or across the country. pods, your personal moving and storage team. the country woke up to some sad news today. we learned that california senator dianne feinstein died at the age of 90 after a legendary groundbreaking 31-year career in the u.s. senate. she got her start in local politics serving on the san francisco board of supervisors. later becoming mayor where she helped guide the city through the hiv/aids crisis. she was elected to the senate in 1992, becoming the first female senator from california ever. feinstein made her mark on the senate with countless legislative achievements. we're back with claire who served with her, and the reverend al sharpton. claire, your thoughts today? >> well, what i'd like to do is let you -- when she talked about that 2%, nicole, one of those two was a woman by the name of barbara mikulski. and this -- she served 30 years in the senate. she greeted dianne feinstein and patty murray and barbara boxer when they came to the senate in 1992. she'd been there for five years. she was the dean of the senate. and she's grieving today terribly. and i'd like her words to speak for me today. she asked if i would make sure her words were spoken, and i would love to do that for the amazing barbara mikulski. "i join with americans, californians, and the u.s. senate in mourning the loss of dianne feinstein. dianne was elegant, eloquent, and always one of the most prepared people in the room. and every day she put those unique qualities to work for the american people. a strong advocate for california, she led on the assault weapons ban and to help the women of the senate on issues important to women and families, including equal pay. on the intelligence committee which she chaired, i saw dianne lead the robust investigation to expose a dark side of our history with the cia torture investigations. at the same time honoring the brave men and women who serve. dianne's ability to navigate these challenging issues spoke to her tremendous character, earning her reputation as a diligent and duty-driven leader who was always willing to extend a hand across the aisle. as the dean of the women, i was happy to welcome dianne in 1992 to the senate where through her years of service she built her legend and legacy. not only was she a trailblazer, dianne was my good friend. she was quick with a laugh -- and always generous with the best bottles of california wines. i will nice her and her mark on the u.s. senate and our nation will endure." >> i'm not going to take the floor back from you now, claire. >> well -- i think this was powerful for me because of what both of these women represent. and you know, the senate is full of egos and ambition and people who get ugly, sharp elbows. dianne feinstein was a towering figure when came to the senate, but she was so kind. i mean, nicole, she would reach out -- she would have a sixth sense about when things were tough in my family. she would take a moment, she would grab me by the hand on the floor and say let's go have a martini tonight. and i watched her struggle alone with a tremendous pressure from the intelligence community and the white house about giving her speech on torture. and i would just beg people before you cast judgment on dianne feinstein and her decision to stay in her job as long as she did, take a minute and watch that speech on the floor of the senate. i think you will realize why it was hard for her to give up her job because she was, as barbara said, duty bound and felt an obligation to serve. >> we don't ever get to talk about kindness because either we don't see it or there isn't that much of it. your thoughts and memories and these deep bonds, i think you always remember the people that are kind to you, and in some case that's the greatest way to honor them by reminding people of them and their humanity. and we don't get to talk about it you in. so thank you for showing yours and using it to honor hers and for giving your voice to another -- another iconic former female senator. claire, thank you so much for being with us today. rev, thank you for spending the hour and for rolling with the breaking news at the top. i'm grateful. another hour of news ahead. when we come back, we'll preview the first big trial against the ex-president set to start monday. very quick break today. quick by tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourists photographing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. that can be analyzed by ai in real time. ♪ so researchers can identify which areas are at risk. and help life underwater flourish. ♪ when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis takes you off course. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid symptom relief and helped leave bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc tried to slow me down... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc caused damage rinvoq came through by visibly repairing my colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief... lasting steroid-free remission... ...and the chance to visibly repair the colon lining. check, check, and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least 1 heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. put uc in check and keep it there with rinvoq. ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq and learn how abbvie can help you save. i don't know who the woman -- let's see, i don't know who -- it's marla. >> you said marla's in this photo? >> that's marla, yeah. that's my wife. >> the person you pointed to was e. jean carroll. >> who's this? you wouldn't be a choice of mine either to be honest with you. i hope you're not insulted. i would not under any circumstances have any interest in you. >> when you were a star they let you do it, you can do anything, grab them by the [ bleep ], you can do anything. >> historically that's true with stars. >> true with stars that they can grab women by the [ bleep ]? >> that's what -- if you look over last million years, iies good than largely true. not always but largely true. unfortunately or fortunately. >> or fortunately. hi, everyone. 5:00 in new york. so that's what happened, right, that's what happened one of the last times donald trump testified in the civil case against himself. unbleeping mitigated disaster, a bleep show legally, financially. and fortunately or unfortunately, reputationaly, too. and now it's quite possible that he will do that all over again in the trial against his company that starts monday. with that in mind trump is one of the 28 witnesses the new york attorney general's office intends to call in that trial. again, starts monday. it marks the first government action against the ex-president to go to trial. this is the civil lawsuit brought by a.g. letitia james against the ex-president and his businesses for inflating the value of his assets to get favorable loans and deals. what is interesting about this case is that before the trial has even started, the judge has already ruled that it was terrible news, again, unmitigated legal disaster for one donald j. trump. in responding to summary judgment motions, the judge earlier this week ruled that trump and hisny committed repeated acts of fraud for many years. in a blistering ruling, the judge described trump's practices as being in a, quote, fantasy world, the real world, and stated, quote, the defenses trump intend to articulate in his sworn deposition are wholly without basis in law or fact, meaning the judge felt a trial was not even needed to decide or find whether or not trump was liable for fraud. that's established. that part is over. now the ex-president could lose control over some of his properties, including trump tower. here in midtown manhattan. as trumped would say, fortunately or unfortunately. just yesterday an appeals court ejected trump's efforts to delay the trial, so will start monday as scheduled. as for what happennext, "the new york times" tells us, quote, with trump's liability for fraud largely solved, the trial which would be decided by justice ango ra n rather than a jury would rolve other aspects of the case, notably whether trump and hispany will face a financi penalty. ms. james is seeking to recover $250 million in ill-gotten gains. trump denies all wrongdoing. the upcoming trial set to start monday over donald trump's fraudulent business practices is where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. "new york times" investigative reporter suzanne craig is back with us. also joining us, bloomberg editor tim o'brien. tim and view have been covering trump's finances for many years. they have probably forgotten more than i will ever now. andrew weissman with us and form attorney general for national security, mary mccord is back with us. lucky for us they are all msnbc contributors. i start with you. you weren't here when the judge was reacting. i spoke to your colleague when this really bombshell ruling came down, i guess bombshell for me, maybe it wasn't surprising for you. now we're heading into a trial on monday with the question of fraud settled, but these others big questions with the big impact on trump and his businesses very much on the line. what are you watching for? >> well, when i think about this now, i just think, you know, they're saying it's all over but the shouting. and i think that that's what's going to happen. there's just going to be a large back and forth in court. there's some fraud counts that still have to -- that will be heard at trial. but the main thing is going to be exactly what the penalty is. and it's not going to be -- i can feel it, i hate making predictions, but on the low side given the main count which was fraud, has already been decided. the judge has said i don't even need to hear that, i've already made a decision, and here's my ruling, and you're liable. so i think that that is going to be, you know -- it's just going to be a lot of argument about that, and i think a lot of angry people coming off of trump's side saying how, you know, unfairly treated they were, certainly something we've heard all of trump's life, that he's the victim and that this isn't fair. it's interesting of all the witnesses on the attorney general's list, trump is the second to last witness and the last witness is a banker who will come in who's an expert and will talk about what he thinks potentially could be the penalty. the one thing that i'm watching for -- and we still don't have a lot of details on it -- we know that a receiver has been put over this, but just how exactly that is going to play out. you know, the receiver now, their job is going to be a steward of that because some of these properties could end up being sold to pay for any penalty that comes at the end of this. but a lot of the -- some of the entities that are involved involve properties outside of the state. and we don't even know if, for example, trump and -- while this is going on can pull out distribution was the properties. -- distributions from the properties. i think we're going to get more color as this goes on from the judge in terms of orders and potentially hearings to do with this issue. so those are kind of the things i'm watching for. you know, i'm happening to be in court on monday with opening arguments. i would imagine happening. >> we hope you're there, too. tim o'brien, to susanne's comment, these are the witnesses expected to be called in the fraud trial of donald trump, eric trump, donald trump jr., ivanka trump, michael cohen, allen weisselberg, alan garten, eric brunette of the trump org. what do you know about that list that we should be prepared to be watching for as this gets under way? >> well, you know, to tee off of your intro from the e. jean carroll debacle, the fact that three trumps are on that list is bad news for the defense because donald trump is a lawyer's worst nightmare under deposition. he is prone to show off, to exaggerate, to get combative. he does everything a lawyer doesn't want someone to do during a deposition. and now he's probably going to do the sail thing in a court -- same thing in a courtroom. eric and don jr. have shown themselves routinely to be sort of unrestrained buffoons around a lot of this. last thursday when the judge issued the ruling and had specifics about the overvaluation of certain properties, you know, eric took it upon himself to go on twitter and inflate the value of mar-a-lago in a social media post, doing exactly the very thing that this case is about. that the trumps routinely inflate the value of their properties to get loans they may not otherwise be able to get. so i think the court testimony is a really interesting wild card in all of this because i think a prosecutor at the top of his or her game who is questioning this trio under oath can do a lot of harm to all three of them because they're not sophisticated, they're not disciplined, and they're not very intelligent. i think the other interesting thing looming all -- over all of this is this case comes out of the martin act. it gives the new york state attorney general enormous power to essentially prosecute financial crime in a very individualistic and empowered way. i think there can be real problems with that because juries often aren't involved. it usually involves also damage to the public. it was invented in the 1920s, passed in the 1920s to go after security firms who had defrauded average investors. in this case, the issue -- i think it will inform how damages are assess englewood is whether the banks were damaged. you know, there's no allegation yet i think that the public was broadly damaged. and i think, you know, the banks were sophisticated players. i don't think they necessarily always took the paperwork donald trump handed them and believed it and made -- gave him a loan solely on his own evidence. and so that's going to inform where the judge lands on damages. but as sue pointed out, the judge has already said fraud occurred. and the damages also i think will be an ancillary thing ultimately anyway because what really matters here is that he's going to be put out of business in the state of new york at the end of this if he's found guilty and they don't have a successful appeal. and most of his wealth is tied up in a small handful of buildings in new york, as well as his family's historical legacy, his businesspeople here. and i think that's a fait accompli at this point. >> wow. i mean most of his wealth and all of his image, andrew weis man. i played the e. jean carroll depo for a couple of reasons, and none of them were to rehumiliate him. he does that pretty well himself. but that was about rape and sexual assault. and what he says in that depo is, yes, you can sexually assault women by grabbing them between their legs. historically that's been the case for one million years. i feel like we should get him a history of time kind of calendar piece or something for his time references when he's being deposed. but rape and sexual assault and whether anyone could do it for a million years or ten minutes was central to that case. i think he's proven himself an extraordinary liability around the central questions that will be asked of him. do you think it's a foregone conclusion that he will sit for -- does he have to take -- take me inside that piece of this andrew. >> it is not a foregone conclusion that he will testify or, you know, if he is called by the state in their case, remember this is a civil case, so that can be done. it could not be done if it was a criminal case. he can assert the fifth amendment. there, of course, are adverse inferences. the history of this case is, if you remember, donald trump had taken the fifth repeatedly, and then agreed to testify. so there wouldn't be that adverse inference. in a civil case if you have that adverse inference it's game over. he still lost. i think it's worth repeating something to make sure everyone understands what sue and tim are talking about, which is the gauge game -- the game is over, the judge has ruled against him. unless appeal that gets reversed, the major financial hit, the hit to his reputation, all of that is in the judge's ruling, finding broad, appointing a receiver, continuing the monitorship of a former federal judge overseeing his business. this is really -- this is kind of small potatoes. i mean, it sounds like lots of money, and of course it is. but it's not anything compared to the ruling the judge had with respect to his new york businesses. the issue is really about disgorgement of up to $250 million. if trump testifies, i think it is going to be a proverbial bloodbath. it's the reason he didn't come in and talk to us in the mueller case. it's the reason he didn't testify at trial in the e. jean carroll case. take one example -- easy cross is tell me the square footage of your apartment in trump tower. right? he is -- that is just black and white, and that can be done over and over again. same thing for eric trump. eric trump has -- how is he going to have anything to say that's relevant when he is under oath saying that he did not have any real role in this company. in spite of his title and position. how's he going to offer any evidence that could be even remotely relevant then? he's sort of in a trick box if he was going to try to defend the trump organization and say, no, everything was above board. that's going to conflict with his prior testimony. so this is one where it's hard to see, although this would be the most interesting and exciting thing if it happens, i do think that this will be largely a battle of the experts. but on an issue that is really not that central. the real central issue is the judge's ruling. >> what's interesting -- and again, i keep saying we're going to have to develop a bunch of psychologists. so say trump doesn't testify, he will be watching how his adult children testify. ivanka's also on the witness list. and this is what he thinks of people who take the fifth -- in his own words, watch. >> the mob takes the fifth. if you're innocent, why are you taking the fifth amendment? >> the 2019 statement of financial condition contained false and misleading valuations and statements. is that correct? >> same answer. >> you knew at the time it was finalized that the year 2019 statement of financial condition contained false and misleading statements. is that correct? >> same answer. >> so mary mccord, that's him taking the fifth. again, it's his right. but according to trump, quote, the mob takes the fifth. if you're innocent, why are you taking the fifth amendment? and i wonder whether he is -- testifies or not, three of his adult children are also on this witness list. and daddy will be watching. >> yeah. and you know, i'm sure daddy was watching, as well, when he saw their depositions that were taken by the house select committee, some of which were played -- publicized national televised hearings last year. was it last year? i feel like everything has been so many years ago. >> time warp. >> yeah. and you know, we do see some fallout from that. now part of that might be -- especially like between donald trump and ivanka trump because you barely hear anything about her or her husband anymore. they've kind of stepped away. and i don't know whether that was more their part or more his part or mutual, right. so this could have not only serious -- serious impact on the remaining counts that are left in this trial and the ultimate judgment in terms of financial damages or disgorgement, but it could cause other family issues that no doubts will arise again as mr. trump goes through the four trials that await him and during his campaign. things he's going to get questioned about. >> sue, andrew mentioned the apartment. and i'm glad the apartment is part of this because there's some aspects to financial fraud that are hard to follow, and there are some that are really easy. this one is about how big his house is. this is from the judge's ruling, quote, opposition, defendant's absurdly sugge that, quote, the calculation of square footage is a subjective process that could lead to diff rests or opinions based on the method employed to conduct the calculation. well, yes,ps if the area is round or oddly shaped, it is possible measurements of square footage cld come to decidely diffing results due to user ror. but good faith measurements could vary by as much as 10% to 20%, not 0%. discrepancy of this order of magnitude by al estate developer, sizing up his own living space of decades, can only be considered fraud. there is like the big fat bottom line for me, that any person who's ever rented anything in new york city can actually check the listing, right, you bring -- still bring a tape measure, right? really -- >> interesting. >> right. these are lies. he benefits from the lies that are confusing, right? you know, oh, russia, if you're listening, i wasn't colluding, blah, blah, blah. this one you can solve with a tape measure. and this judge has called the ultimate bs on donald trump. >> i'm so glad you asked me about the apartment because -- i went to hear the arguments before the motion for summary judgment that led to this finding of fraud. and in the middle of it, one of donald trump's lawyers stood up on the apartment issue and said, okay, on that one, we made a mistake, it's 10,000 square feet. so even they know on that one that it -- it wasn't 30,000 square feet -- there was a lot of laughter in the courtroom when that happened. even they're giving up the goat -- the ghost on that one. yeah. yeah. that's one. but on the other ones -- i was imagining, you know, listening to tim about, you know, he -- donald trump's known for being this wild card and he's gotten himself into trouble with that positions. and i imagine if he takes this down, in the deposition that he gave in this case, he was calling his properties the mona lisas, saying that they are in some conditions priceless. i can just see him taking this down thinking at this point he has nothing to lose, and you know, just using it as a political platform. i don't have any predictions on whether he's going to. i think, you know, any sane lawyer would probably advise him to take the fifth. but i can see him wanting to use it as a platform so that he can be heard by his base and others that he is once again a victim. he is, you know -- being persecuted by the system and, you know, this is how it's playing out. so i can see it kind of him wanting to. i can -- you know, hope he's getting better legal advice. but i can see it coming down to that, and his deposition was wild, the statements he was making, not just about valuations but about, you know, he saved the world from nuclear holocaust and all these other things. >> yeah, i think he also alluded to how much the saudis would pay him. you know, to be clear, that has nothing to do with how much any unit in trump tower is worth, two totally separate proof points. all right. stick around. >> no, and keep in mind he doesn't own trump tower. he owns the commercial space of trump tower. there's always these things that are -- these legends that he -- because he says them over and over, they at a certain point become fact. he doesn't even own all of trump tower. he owns his apartment and the retail space. >> it's important -- >> and the land underneath. >> right. it is important to point out that the -- he's been telling lies about his wealth a lot longer than he's been telling lies about losing. so that is a really good and important reminder. we have so much more to get to. we need all of you to stick around. ahead of trump's fraud trial that commences monday, we'll turn back to the news that broke at the top of our first hour. the first guilty plea of a trump co-defendant in the fulton county case. that you will is ahead. later in the broadcast the top leader of the united states military, the chairman of the joint chiefs, general mark milley, is handing over command at a time when he finds himself the target of death threats from the last commander in chief of the united states of america. and when the most urgent threat facing the country may very well be coming from within the country. "deadline white house" continues after a break. es after a break. this is spring semester at fairfield-suisun unified. they switched to google tools for education because there's never been a reported ransomware attack on a chromebook. now they're focused on learning knowing that their data is secure. 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american infrastructure, a prime target for cyberattacks. but the same ai-powered security that protects all of google also defends these services for everyone who lives here. ♪ the power goes out and we still have wifi for everyone to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. home of the xfinity 10g network. you're probably not easily persuaded to switch mobile providers for your business. but what if we told you it's possible that comcast business mobile can save you up to 75% a year on your wireless bill versus the big three carriers? it's true. plus, when you buy your first line of mobile, you get a second line free. there are no term contracts or line activation fees. and you can bring your own device. oh, and all on the most reliable 5g mobile network nationwide. wireless that works for you. it's not just possible. it's happening. we do a lot of juggling. i want to switch back to the breaking news we started with at the top of the last hour. news that scott hall, one of the 19 defendants charged in fulton county d.a. fani willis' criminal enterprise, that rico election interference case, has flipped. it makes him the first of the defendants to flip on the others. hall is a bail bondsman. hall was charged with felonies having to do with the entire criminal enterprise but also specifically the voting system breach in georgia's very conservative coffey county. we're back with susanne, andrew, mary. we had this conversation in the last hour. i wanted to ask the significance of a guilty plea and one of the conditions that -- is that he agrees to testify truthfully. he is tied back to jeffrey clark who was the environmental lawyer-turned-acting attorney general for a few hours. he's in the center of donald trump's effort to seize voting machines and overturn his defeat. there's reason to believe on the timeline that sidney powell is tied to that executive order to seize voting machines for using the military, then turning to dhs. how important is his fully truthful testimony to the prosecution surrounding election interference? >> this could be really important for two reasons. one, in and of itself even though we haven't seen the -- the state has seen and judge has seen, but we have not seen the statement that he was required to give as part of the plea as to what he said he did. so that could be quite significant. and nicole, as you correctly point out, the georgia indictment has him in a whole variety of conspiratorial acts, most notably with sidney powell who is scheduled for trial within the month. and that is sort of breaking into and accessing the coffey county voting machines. and so presumably he is going to provide consistent with his guilty plea key evidence about that. that's sort of one aspect that's useful. the other is that he is the first, and that is something that, you know, for other people it is useful to see somebody else doing this, not having to bear the burden of being the first to flip. and very often, you do see sort of this what's called breaking of the logjam of somebody who sort of starts cooperating and they see that they can get a better plea deal. you know, he only pled to misdemeanors, he got a relatively lenient sentence if he adheres to his commitments. and so it has a second sort of signaling effect if you're the prosecutors in terms of what else could be done for other people in the case. so you know, if you're the government, you're probably hoping that there are other people who will follow suit, who will accept responsibility for what they did and will testify truthfully. and the final point i'll make is if you remember, allen weisselberg was in a similar position in the manhattan district attorney's case, he's the former cfo of the trump organization. he also agreed to give truthful testimony as part of his plea, and that truthful testimony did play out for the d.a. successfully, the trump organization, in a related organization, were found criminally liable for a long-running tax scheme that allen weisselberg provided evidence at trial that was truthful. so i would think at the very least it will have the same kind of implication in the upcoming trial with respect to sidney powell. >> mary, here's some more from that fantastic deep dive at the "washington post" on mr. hall and the effort to break into the elections equipment in this very, very conservative red part of the state of georgia. mr. hall urgently needed a plane that was his fixation in january of 2021, according to people who spoke to him. and only later learned that his intenned destination, rural coffey county, georgia, 200 miles southeast of atlanta, had come into focus after a local official involved in tabulating votes told a county board that the voting machines could, quote, very easily be manipulated to shift the count. the official promise, she tallied both correctly, where trump won handily but said she believed that not everyone operating the machines throughout the state was as upstanding. trump allies came to believe that examining voting machines in coffey county would let them prove the devices had vulnerabilities that could have been exploited. he's sort of beating heart -- almost patient zero of the effort to fabricate fraud that never existed, not even in coffey county, according to coffey county elections officials. >> yeah, you know, i mean, reflecting back i'm so glad you pulled up that good reporting because i think i'd forgotten some of these details. but again, as i had said at the top of the hour, this is a guy who seemed to want to do something, right, to help mr. trump stay in office. and he thought -- he knew a lot of people in georgia, he had connections, and he thought i can be the guy that can help to break this open with evidence of fraud. and you know, as you indicated, if there's vulnerabilities discovered in the voting machines even in a deep red district, that might mean that there were vulnerabilities in voting machines in the blue areas of the state and which would give mr. trump more of an argument. i think what was also so revealing, which you read at the top of the hour, is -- and i had, frankly, forgotten about this, is that 63-minute phone call with jeffrey clark. jeffrey clark, the acting assistant attorney general for civil division and for a brief period the acting attorney general, and that phone call, you can imagine what that might have entailed about basically scott hall saying we can get evidence or even we have evidence. and you know, at least if you take the chronology of fani willis' indictment in the way she lists out different acts, the next thing you see is jeffrey clark going to his superiors and pushing upon them to actually put pressure on the state to let them know that doj is investigating, that doj has evidence of fraud, and that the state legislature should really consider sort of taking this back and -- and essentially putting forth their own slate of electors. so all of this fits together very neatly, but you're right, stout hall is kind of -- scott hall ask kind of an important cog, a low level but important cog in the machinery of building what they thought would be or hoped would be an actual substantial case of fraud which, of course, never materialized. >> anywhere ever. and he's a cog directly tied into the most senior official at the justice department working on the coup from the inside. just fascinating development. wow, thank you so much for starting us off today. we will continue to call on all of you as this trial gets under way. ahead for us, the joint chiefs chairman mark milley handing over the reins to the united states military. in doing so, speaking out, speaking bluntly, offering a sharp rebuke to the once and hopefully not possible future commander in chief who is currently right now as we broadcast this show, issuing death threats against him, chairman mark milley. that story's next. lley that story's next. subject 1: who's that? who's that? cole: this is my fluffy. charlie: cancer. it's different in a child because your child is still growing. i had 14 rounds of chemo. there's thousands and thousands of kids all over the world who need help. subject 2: it is my first time having cancer. and it's the very worst. crew: this september, you can join the battle to save lives during childhood cancer awareness month by supporting saint jude children's research hospital. subject 3: it's scary to watch your kid battle and fight for their lives. crew: one in five children diagnosed with cancer in the us will not survive. subject 4: childhood cancer is hard. it's a long road. you just have to give. you have to give someone that hope and especially with them being so young. crew: please call, go online, or scan the qr code for only $19 a month. families never receive a bill from saint jude for treatment, travel, housing, or food so they can focus on helping their child live. subject 5: she grew up in this. so when we go to st. jude, she's happy because that's her home. every time i take her to the doctor, she's excited because she gets to play. and that's all because of saint jude. crew: when you call or go online with your credit or debit card right now, we'll send you this saint jude t-shirt you can wear to show your support to help saint jude save the lives of these children. subject 6: [speaking spanish] crew: let's cure childhood cancer together. is that document that all of us in uniform swears to protect and defend against all enemies foreign and domestic. we don't take an oath to a tribe, we don't take an oath to religion, we don't take an oath to a king or queen or a tyrant or a dictator, we don't take an oath to a -- dictator. we don't take an oath to an individual. the millions wounded in our nation's wars did not sacrifice their limbs and shed their blood to see this great experiment of democracy perish from this earth. >> wow. wow. so that was general mark milley's extraordinarily pointed and specific farewell speech in arlington, virginia, today. specifically, this is a -- someone who chooses his words carefully, who understands the moment in which we live better than perhaps anyone alive right now. and chairman milley used this moment to warn against, quote, wannabe dictators, he placed an emphasis on protecting all of us against enemies foreign and domestic. chairman milley's tenure as chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and more than 40 years in the military ends in the same way that he's responding to a social media death threat made by the unstable, disgraced ex-president under whom he served as top military adviser. milley swore in his successor today, general charles q. brown jr., after an 11th hour senate vote last week to confirm him with no thanks to the maga republicans and republican senator tommy tuberville whose ongoing hold on about 300 military promotions nearly and embarrassingly forced a temporary administrator to fill milley's role in the pen's highest position. joining us founder of the veterans of america and host of "the independent americans" podcast, and also joining us bbc news special u.s. correspondent and msnbc contributor katty kay. i can't separate general milley's comments from the revelations in "the atlantic." when he goes on to say that americans who have given their lives and their limbs did not do so to watch the demise of democracy. it's just so pointed what is spilling out, what has been kept in confidence, secrets he kept not to keep trump's secrets but to perhaps keep the military out of the trump story as long as possible are now public knowledge. trump's disdain for wounded veterans, trump's disdain for those who lost their lives serving there country is now on -- this country is now on the public record. >> here he comes. and now uniform's going to go on the shelf, and i hope he can let the fists fly. i think mark milley is a tremendous patriots. he's the kind of leader you want to follow. you send your kids into the military, you hope they have a commander like mark milley. and i hope he continues to lead in the public space. i hope he runs for office. i think that maybe he can run in alabama against tommy tuberville. that sure would be fun to watch. i think he embodies the integrity, leadership, the duty, the loner, all the things that -- honor, all the things that embody the military are in mark milley. he's not afraid to fight. these are trying times where he's been maybe the most important chairman of the joint chiefs in modern history, during some of the most important times. i hope he gets out into the space in a way retired chairmen haven't. i think he's one of our most important leaders. i think milley needs to go further. if he does that, he can be a really important weapon in battling trump. >> i want to say something about him as a leader because i think he also has this other piece that i can't think of a single other example, but after he appeared in lafayette square, he immediately admitted the error and sought to correct it among the people he cared about the most. he made a video and distributed it to the military. >> yeah, i was one of many who was outraged by that moment. i thought he should resign. and i said, if he doesn't resign it's because he's staying inside to hold the line. i think in many ways it felt like he was working even harder because of that mistake. he's been very humble, very open. and you can see he felt duped and said that. i think in the next couple of weeks, i hope that he takes a good vacation, you know, gets some really good security in the private sector. and then he comes out and starts to talk about this and maybe motivate other generals, other retired military folks. somebody like colonel vinman who's been effective, can show how they can influence people. i keep coming back to this, but this election is going to be decided by independents. n swing states. and -- independents in swing states. and independents can be moved especially by retired generous. 50% of veterans are independentses. they listen to people like mark milley. it could be the difference between a couple thousand votes in pennsylvania or a place like florida when the election comes. >> it seems that a message that someone like general milley can deliver uniquely is that this is -- is about the moment, right. i mean, they're -- we debate, this person likely joe biden against donald trump. but it feels difficult to shake people out of this feeling that we're sort of sleepwalking toward the inevitable, right? a battleground state and polls and red and blue and closer to -- the country's not particularly polarized. the conversations are, our country's not. 80% of americans would like to see something done on gun safety, and it's this right-left thing. the country's not polarized around gun safety. 70% of americans would like to see abortion legal in all or most instances, country's not divided on abortion. that's why abortion keeps winning in kansas, in north carolina, in ohio. and the country is most certainly not divided on the military deserving our respect, particularly those who have died or been wounded. and what general milley knows is that on one of the last things that truly unites about 100% of all americans that we owe a debt of gratitude to the military, especially those who died or were wounded. donald trump is a straight-up disgrace. he is an unpatriotic disgrace. he didn't want to be seen with luis avila who sang when chairman milley first got this job. and i think the stories that he's begun to tell could be an extraordinary kaleidoscope, if you will, in terms of shaking or reframe something of the conversations around donald trump as the commander in chief. katty? >> sorry. i didn't know that was to me. yeah, i think that's right. i mean, mark milley has been put whether or not at this moment in history, we were talking about mike mullen, and mike mullen is another chairman, as you know, who served two presidents with very different political and military agendas. george w. bush and barack obama. barack obama who wanted to get america out of every war. milley has continue the same, but it's milley who's been in this position that he now faces deaths threats, he has had to call up his chinese counterparts to reassure them that democracy was stable in america. and has found himself dragged into a kind of political sphere that he probably didn't even want to get into. and that's a very different position. i think that gives him a unique perspective on where we are in this moment in the united states. look, we shouldn't -- milley has his critics, as well, who say that he is very ambitious and concerned about his legacy and, you know, keen on his own image. and i think that's all -- has some credibility to it. but there is nobody who doesn't say that he has had one of the hardest jobs as chairman in modern american history, precisely because he was there when democracy was in peril in this country and had to defend it. and that gives him a unique platform. he has to deal with his own security, too, so let's see how he feels he can use that platform. >> i mean, i think that's an interesting point. that is what they say about anyone who talks to any of us, right? anyone who talks to the media is described as ambitious and involved in legacy making. i want to press on that, katty. i think the idea that he's someone who can be intimidated is ludicrous. "the atlantic" article also has extraordinary battlefield heroics that i'm not an expert, but doesn't southbound to me like milley's someone who's going to scare. >> no. and look, you know, when he was sworn in in december of 2018, what did he promise? he promised impartial and candid advice to the president of the united states. and he has not held back on that promise as he is leaving office or while he was in office. he has been candid and impartial and expect him to continue doing so. let's not brush away the fact that this guy is leaving office with a death threat potentially against him, and the prospects now as he has said already of having to secure his own security. that in and of itself just tells us so much about where we are. mike mullen didn't have to have the kind -- anything like the kind of security from death threats i image why that mark milley is going to face, also a reflection of the environment that we're in. it calls again for bold leadership in this particular moment. but i just think it's -- worth noting that this is somebody like dr. fauci who i interviewed and to spend half an hour dealing with six u.s. marshals beforehand to figure out where we could walk around georgetown campus that was going to be safe for him. it's absurd, this moment that we're in. but it does give a unique perspective and perhaps responsibility. it is incredible. he will have that for the rest of his life. he's 83 years old, and for -- he can't open his front door. he doesn't open any mail. he can't go and buy toothpaste without being surrounded by six big, strong people protecting him from death threats. >> that sun believable. i mean, that is the trump legacy. that is what's on the ballot. i need both of you to stick around. i have to sneak in a district break. we'll be right back. eak in a di break. we'll be right back. (vo) ultimate endless shrimp is here with a limited time flavor drop. new crispy dragon shrimp. one of seven endless choices. right now, only at red lobster. welcome to fun dining. this is american infrastructure, a prime target for cyberattacks. but the same ai-powered security that protects all of google also defends these services for everyone who lives here. ♪ you know that feeling of having to rewash dishes that didn't get clean? i don't. cascade platinum plus... with double the dawn grease fighting power and double the scrubbing power. for a no rewash clean... and a cabinet ready shine. upgrade to cascade platinum plus. dare to dish differently. i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. upgrade to cascade platinum plus. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up ♪ ♪ i've got symptom relief ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements at 4 weeks. skyrizi is the first and only il-23 inhibitor for crohn's that can deliver both clinical remission and endoscopic improvement. the majority of people on skyrizi achieved long lasting remission at 1 year. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. ask your gastroenterologist how you can take control of your crohn's with skyrizi. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. it almost seems odd to ask this question because the former commander in chief seems to be calling for your execution. are you worried about your safety? >> i've got adequate safety precautions. i wish those comments had not been made, but they were, and we'll take appropriate measures to ensure my safety and the safety of my family. >> again, it's a fair question. it's tragic that he has to respond in the way he did. but to catty's point this is the trump legacy, that everyone who served in public life, who trump picked -- trump picked fauci and trump picked milley. all need to protect their lives and their families' lives. >> and he's putting a bullseye on him. and he's saying to millions of followers around the country that are prone to violence and extremism, this is now the new enemy number one, this is the new fauci. and he literally says go get him. right? and to all the extremists who are watching, to the people who are lone wolves, they see this and it's a message. it's an order. and i think milley's right in saying this jeopardizes everybody in uniform. it makes every military base a target. it makes every recruiting center a target. you have to look at the opposition here, especially the extremist elements, like they're a terrorist organization. they want to hit leaders, media figures and any ininstitution identified by their leader as the enemy. and now it's not just trump. it's plenty of other radicals, it's desantis saying the military is enemy number one. the democrats have to flip it and try to go on the offense and say the republicans want to defund the troops, they want to block the generals, they want to undermine our national security and call them out on it. the question is can they? can they get through on that message? can they cut through and go on offense and really score points? and it doesn't look like so far honestly they can. it seems like they're often on defense. >> they better. paul and katty, thank you so much for spending time with us today and having this conversation. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. tion a quick break for us we'll be right back. subject 1: who's that? who's that? cole: this is my fluffy. charlie: cancer. it's different in a child because your child is still growing. i had 14 rounds of chemo. there's thousands and thousands of kids all over the world who need help. subject 2: it is my first time having cancer. and it's the very worst. crew: this september, you can join the battle to save lives during childhood cancer awareness month by supporting saint jude children's research hospital. subject 3: it's scary to watch your kid battle and fight for their lives. crew: one in five children diagnosed with cancer in the us will not survive. subject 4: childhood cancer is hard. it's a long road. you just have to give. you have to give someone that hope and especially with them being so young. crew: please call, go online, or scan the qr code for only $19 a month. families never receive a bill from saint jude for treatment, travel, housing, or food so they can focus on helping their child live. subject 5: she grew up in this. so when we go to st. jude, she's happy because that's her home. every time i take her to the doctor, she's excited because she gets to play. and that's all because of saint jude. crew: when you call or go online with your credit or debit card right now, we'll send you this saint jude t-shirt you can wear to show your support to help saint jude save the lives of these children. subject 6: [speaking spanish] crew: let's cure childhood cancer together. ♪ the thought of getting screened ♪ ♪ for colon cancer made me queasy. ♪ ♪ but now i've found a way that's right for me. ♪ ♪ feels more easy. ♪ ♪ my doc and i agreed. ♪ ♪ i pick the time. ♪ ♪ today's a good day. ♪ ♪ i screened with cologuard and did it my way! ♪ cologuard is a one-of-a kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ i did it my way! ♪ (vo) antarctica... ask your provider for cologuard. you have to experience it to truly appreciate the beauty, the wildlife, the sheer majesty. experience it with state-of-the-art expedition equipment and hands-on scientific research activities, all in exceptional viking comfort. we invite you to discover the world's seventh continent: antarctica. viking. exploring the world in comfort. there's finally some good news to tell you about for all of us tv lovers out there. our favorite late-night talk show hosts have announced that they are all returning this monday after the writers' guild reached an agreement with studios officially voting to end the strike on wednesday after the 148-day strike. more than 11,000 writers are now eligible to return to work, which means most live talk shows can return to production. however, shows tha require actors and actors' scripts will likely remain on hold because of the ongoing actors' strike. the contract still has to be ratified by members in a vote, includes higher pay, streaming bonuses, minimum staffing rules about artificial intelligence. these are huge wins for the writers as well as we the viewers. as we will finally have more tv to watch on the near horizon. another break for us. we'll be right back. break for us we'll be right back. itchy pets, scratchy pets, and most importantly, your pet. every day great prices and 35% off your first authorship order. right to your door. download the chewy app. (car engine revs) (engine accelerating) (texting clicks) (tires squeal) (glass shattering) (loose gravel clanking) thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. happy friday. >> happy friday, nicolle. hang in there. get well. all the good things. >> thank you. >> nice to see you. good to see you, nicolle. good to see everyone at home on this friday.