apparatus, and to be in them with it. >> they wouldn't help trump and democracy. >> it is being punished with. that's >> as much as these are directed at me, it is directed at the institution of the military. >> and, the big decision from the judge in the trump coup trial as the truth comes out in a new york court. >> maybe he is not as rich as he says he is. >> this weekend, more good polling for the biden campaign. the latest on from the republican front runner to avoid the debate stage. >> the headline is, why is he afraid to debate? >> he is afraid to get on the stage. >> what is the former president afraid of? >> all in, starting right now. >> good evening to you new york, i'm chris hayes. tonight, the republican primary debate featuring a bunch of candidates not named donald trump, pulling in a distant second amounts. what is likely being laid bare on that stage, even without trump president, it is it used to be box standard republican issues, it was serving the ex president that was right there. it becomes president for several decades, including someone who lived through 9/11, and the run up to the iraq war. i have to say, the republican party's war on the pentagon, and u.s. department forces, is quite shocking, and head spinning. it starts with rubber can senator, tommy tuberville, of alabama. the former football coach is blocking congress from feeling hundreds of vacancies in the pentagon. it was it was harder for service members, to get access to abortion. congress can circumvent tuberville's blockade, which is perceivable, and it was a time consuming process. the senate did take the time to confirm air force general, charles q brown junior is as the chairman chief of staff to the top military officer. he was very well regarded, and was confirmed on a partisan basis, 83 to 11. all 11 no votes, coming from republicans, one of whom was tommy tuberville. and when pressed on his no vote, tuberville had this to say about general bragg. >> when he talks about race, and other things he wants to make sent to the military. let me say, our military is not an equal opportunity employer. we are looking for the best of the best, to do whatever. we are not looking for different groups, social justice groups. we don't want, to single-handedly, destroy our military from within. >> he talked about race, and things he wanted to mix and to the military. mixing in the military. it's not the best of the best. they don't want to single-handedly destroy the military from within. for many reasons, i think it is a gross, and racist thing to say, from a man who will be the second black chief of staff. it's also not true. the department of defense isn't literally,, equal opportunity employer. the d.o.d. has an office of equal employment opportunity under the inspector general, and an office of diversity, equity, and inclusion, focusing on, quote, equal opportunity policies. today, one day after that interview, the maga republican house voted to cut the salary of secretary of defense lloyd austin, who is also black, to $1. this initiative, pushed by none other than marjorie taylor greene, who accused lloyd of jeopardizing national security, presumably, by being too woke. if greene wants to play this rhetorical game, within the party blocking top military appointments being the one jeopardizing national security? i would also note, as someone who covers the politics for two decades, particularly the wake of the run up to the iraq war. it goes without saying, if a democrat tried something like this, republicans would call for them to be tried for treason. it is not hyperbole, which will get to in a second. not to be over done, lauren boebert, who has a feud, i guess, with marjorie taylor greene, or kind of competition, he pulled a stunt of their own today. which proposed was they keep the seller of another pentagon official, sean skelly, explicitly because skelly is trans. >> i rise today to offer my amendment that utilizes the rule to reduce the salary of sean kelly. assistant secretary of defense for readiness. that salary shall be reduced to $1. this delusional man, thinking that he is a woman, embodies, and espouses, the wokeism that is causing significant harm to our military readiness and troop morale. >> setting aside how gross it is to purposefully misgender someone that way, boebert's objection here is the identity of the person. right? imagine if boebert tried this with any other identity. we need to stopping a government employer, or boston down to $1 per year because they are greek, or latinos, or jewish, or black? it is an out right bit of rank bigotry, directed at a service member, from the will of the house, live on camera. what i have given you a taste of it is in the last 48 hours. meanwhile, republicans are still careening us towards a government shutdown, which by the way, will mean that the troops do not get paid. that vote, i mentioned a moment ago, elevating general brown to the chairman of joint chiefs of staff, it is a current chairman with general mark milley, leaving his post when his term expires next month. milley, of course, first appointed by president trump, which is been soured at him. it is saying that milley should be executed for treason. i am not making that up, that is not exaggeration, and there are some spurious allegations he spoke to leaders about trump's mental fitness. it is a chinese counterpart under the direction of the secretary of defense, and it was a desperate coup attempts, with an erratic lashing out, that did not lead to a war with nuclear armed china. and then caught he did that. they address the threats from the government. >> trump said that your dealings with china were so egregious, that in times gone by, the punishment would have been death. >> that's right, he did say that. >> as much as these comments are directed at me, it is also directed at the institution of the military. it is 2.1 million of us in uniform, and the american people take it from the bank, and every single one of us is loyal to the constitution, and will never turn their back on it, no matter what, no matter what the threats, no matter what the humiliation. if we are willing to die for that document, if we are willing to die in deployed combat, lose an arm, a leg, an eye to protect, support, and defend that document, to protect the american people? you must be willing to live for it to. i won't comment directly on those things, but i will tell you, this military, the soldiers, me, will never turn our back on the constitution. >> milley has become a villain in the model world for a variety of reasons. they see them is insufficiently bigoted against lgbtq members of the armed forces. it is a subtext republican congressman, paul gosar, being explicit when he wrote in his weekly newsletter, quote, in a better society, quiz ling selective strange sodomy promoting general milley would be hung. i bet you, you have not heard that until just now, most of you. yes, he met hanged. the context of that statement, to work gosar called for the execution of the highest ranking military on official in the country, comparing him to an officer collaborator, whistling, is about january 6th. here, we unlock a mystery. what is going on? why are republicans waging war against the military? the top brass? anything else, it is the original sin of the military's top brass, with the maga republicans, and how the bigotry is definitely part of the right-wing meltdown. it was a sustained assault with the top brass, and the military being too woke is mostly a spoke screen who disdain for the fact that, in their view, the upper echelons of the u.s. armed forces were insufficiently loyal to trump's coup. that is what is going to come down to. leaders of the armed forces, of the united states took an oath to protect, and defend, the constitution. and who took that oath seriously, at a dire moment, and one of the most dire moments, since a civil war, is refusing to be the arm tip of the spear for trump's attempt to end that constitutional republican. that is very soon. it is from the enemy of this faction, air go, the military is woke. the military is the deep set. it is waiting more on the military. all of the military that comes with trump's for democracy, it was needing to be loyal, and must be purged. it is not just speculation, it is what trump is saying, out loud, promising what he is going to do. >> to dismantle the deep state, and reclaim our democracy from washington corruption, once and for all, and corruption it is. first, i will immediately reissue my 2020 executive order, restoring the presidents authority to remove rogue bureaucrats, and i will wield that -- wield that power aggressively. i will clear out all corrupt actors in our national security, and intelligence apparatus, and there are plenty of them. >> he is saying, i will purge the security forces of the united states of those who are not loyal to me, and my authoritarian aspirations. he is saying, it plain as day. he has promised it. the question from american voters is, do you want to give trump the chance to purge the military? so that he can finish the job on january 6th? baron mccaffrey, it is a retired u.s. army general, it was three purple hearts which is a army infantry officer hosting independent american aspect, and going towards 1 million our. >> it going into the last election, angela last for five days, you have the tuberville blockade, the void against the joint chief of staff, and it is mixing in the military. we have two people, donald trump's fall those are is an execution of milley, and votes that are successful in the house. it is just one person saying it. it was taking the salary of austin down to $1. it is strongly endorsing the opening comment, and it was worth being extremely concerned about. during the follow on to trump's election, he actually made moves, which i had said at the time, to run a coup against the government of the united states. it was no question, in my mind, it was them sending a gang of people over there. mark milley, and the senior offices of the armed forces did swear an oath to the constitution that they would not go along with this. what we are seeing is a parallel since the 1930s, and not to germany. i don't say that to the republican party, that 15 to 25 house members, a couple of senators, and all of those who are trump, maga loyalists. it is a cult, it is a lawless cult, and it is a major discrepancy into the forces of the united states. it is shameful to talk about general mark milley. by the way, you won't be intimidated. it is four years of combat, and his moment had fought in world war ii. it is a shameful act, and is speaking in a manner with an authoritarian government. this is outrageous. >> one thing to speak with milley's, if i speak with the top brass of the u.s. military, it was not seeing eye to eye, people with different views, coming from different places, but i think one of the things that milley expresses, and i think something to see is, milley reiterating that there is a bedrock, ironclad, consensus loyalty, and fidelity, to the u.s. constitution. and, ultimately, it is incommensurables for loyalty to trump. >> he's drawing a line. he saying, i stand on the side, you stand on that side. that military is on october 1st, and i hope you let's face live. we need to hear everything they know, and it's his patriotic duty, i think it is critical to our national security, because what this is all about is, what i call, the american insurgency. it is a political, and social movement, focused on violently overthrowing our government. it has lead elements, including trump, including folks like the national security adviser, mike flynn, and the soldier and this is tommy tuberville who, is ridiculous, radical, reckless, and racist. i called him senator redneck, because that is what he is. you want someone to lead this ridiculous, racist staying, that undermines our national security. tuberville says, me, let me be your guy. he's your guy. he has ten minions who follow him, and every day, it is something new, that undermines our national security. it hurts our troops, our morale, our enemies celebrate, vladimir putin loves this. it's also a political side to this. this is driving the gop further, and further, away from america, and independents like me. i call this the confederate wing of the gop. they want to create the confederate army. they want to take us back to the 1800s. they do not understand this modern world, and they are fighting it. and they have to fight back. >> to follow on that, to not follow in a second, general, is that it was you and either around the same age, and obviously, you served during the part of that period, that intensely-long period that pulls back on it. the idea that the military is woke. what they mean by woke is, faithful to a vision of the nation, as bound together across difference, in support of the constitution. that, to them, is woke. >> what they also mean is diverse. what they also mean, it's not like them. i'm going to naming it, because there are serious, racial components, every element of this. they continue to oppose some historically important, turmeric leaders, who are also black. time and again, tommy tuberville is opposite significant black leaders, and he says, i will be the guy, the one to take that politically unpopular position. he wants to be the savior, he wants to be this person who will go up to trump, and say, i am your guy. it's a coordinated attack to undermine our national security, and push their political agenda, and anyone that stands in the way, even if it's the pentagon. >> let me ask you this to, service over the highest levels in our nation. it had been around politicians, and leaders, civilians, and military. do you think that there are conversations happening now about this peril that we face? it is not, gone obviously. if you listen to milley, he feels it, but do you think that this is a known thing? that everyone at the top upper echelons of u.s. armed forces have taken that up? >> i certainly wouldn't. speaking from the active military leadership of the country. one of the things that needs to be said on your program tonight, is that the armed forces of the united states, today, are the toughest, best equipped, most committed fighting force in the country's history. they took 60,000, killed and wounded, during this war on terror. we watched the glue through the national training center, they are lethal, they are prepared, and i sat next to a bob woodward lecture, a grandmother, whose granddaughter just graduated from west point, and infantry in the branch. it was infantry that ties in in the act as well. we should have no doubt about the willingness, and preparation, of the armed forces. it is utter nonsense. the i think what you've got is, and i think paul said this perfectly, is that there are elements of this 15, to 25 congressman, who are racist, who are ignorant, who are opportunist. i wouldn't want to characterize the conservative movement that way, but certainly, this is the maga minority. >> general barry mccaffrey, thank you very much gentlemen, we really appreciate it. coming up, it is the trump organization calling for the death penalty. what does that mean for trump the, man and from the brand? first, the judge, overseeing the ex presidents gc trial over the coup, so she is not going anywhere. with the judge's refusal to recuse means for donald trump, next. trump, next et tails and tongues wagging. ♪♪ fastsigns. make your statement. as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty. all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly support will make you part of the movement to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards. but the aclu can't do this important work without the support of people like you. you can help ensure liberty and justice for all and make sure that every vote is counted. so please call the aclu now or go to my aclu.org and join us. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and much more. to show you're a part of the movement to protect the rights guaranteed to all of us by the us constitution. we protect everyone's rights, the freedom of religion, the freedom of expression, racial justice, lgbtq rights, the rights of the disabled. we are here for everyone. it is more important than ever to take a stand. so please join us today. because we the people means all the people, including you. so call now or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty. ♪i'm hearing different ways for me to screen for colon cancer.♪ ♪it's time to use my voice,♪ ♪i've got a choice, more than one answer.♪ ♪i sat down with my doc.♪ we had a talk. ♪knew just what to say.♪ ♪i asked for cologuard and did it my way.♪ cologuard is a one-of-a kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪i did it my way!♪ the power goes out and we still have wifi ask your provider for cologuard. to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. >> breaking news tonight, and home of the xfinity 10g network. donald trump's criminal case in washington d.c.. this is the coup trial, where trump is charged with his efforts to steal the 2020 election in power. the judge in that case, judge tanya. just filing an order, responding to trump's motion, asking that she recuse herself from the case. trump, actually, began to demand chutkan's refusal within days of his indictment on august 1st, announcing he had very powerful grounds for his request. earlier this month, the grounds didn't quite look so powerful. it was it was at hearings, with the sentencing for crimes at the capitol, on january 6th. they're arguing that judge chutkan had suggested president trump should be prosecuted, and imprisoned. in a 20-page response day, chutkan basically said, they were making things up, writing, at the outset, it bears noting that they had never taken the position the defense prescribes to it, and that former trump should be prosecuted, and imprisoned. the defense does not set any instance of the court ever uttering those words, or anything similar. she goes on. it is the defense, not the court, who is assumed that the defendant belongs in that undefined group of people who should face charges. extrapolate an announcement of defendants guilt from the court silences to adopt a hypersensitive, cynical, and suspicious perspective, rather than a reasonable one. the defense motion for recusal is hereby tonight. a former federal prosecutor, who served as counsel to attorney general dan marino, joins me right now. shin, maybe we can talk about this and, what the standard will be for recusal is. it has to be relatively high. the system works, in these random judges, and it was -- what is the bar? >> it is a clear, and convincing statement that is actually, the next tie a, still the highest one, which is beyond a reasonable doubt. it is a very challenging standard, and as you say, it was making it very easy, and encouraged are shopping. and what the judge wanted to do. >> the reasoning here is that they basically zeroed in on sentencing, and two other january six trials. my understanding is, there a bedrock supreme court precedents for this. there are a bunch of other cases that they cite in their brief, that the judges are saying things in public appearances in the press. judge chutkan's used to say, those are not or being said. we're talking what was being said a sentencing. >> the president really talks about that within the courtroom, it was particularly scrutinized for a high bar, as a pose to public announcements, and might be presidential. it was speaking about, and it was going with there speaking. they did not address it to trump's guilt, of where that they should be charged. they made by those defendants, and are trying to lessen their guilt, saving their influence. so, the idea that as the court sets out an order, simply suggesting that the court may be suggesting that, that, really, is very far from meeting the standard. >> she is at a sentencing for the defendant in christine creola who is found guilty, for her role on january six, going inside of the capitol. lawyers asking for leniency, saying the trump, and his inner circle, or convince the election has been stolen. he writes, the former president was free at the time of sentencing, and undisputed fact, amongst which creola had relied for, her medication argument. but it went no further. it's been the courtyard, and say anything else. the defendant trying to cnn escape a message and what the court did not say the president trump was free, but should not be. what is interesting here is, you've got the judge before you. you file a motion that contort's her own statements. she knows the context of what they said. it is a wild thing to do, to try to ranch out of context, statements by the very person to whom you are filing the order. >> especially after their instance with that, the very instance that is what is being found. many lawyers will say, you don't want to see it was what was true. i think the bigger risk for these trump attorneys is, by following trump's lead, in making this very weak, continue waited, recusal argument. it doesn't hurt them is that judge chutkan is going to get most of them, and with the public defender, no, the problem is that they're going to lose their credibility. they're going to feel like they're going to make any old argument, and that really hurts the attorney in court. >> reputational capital. it is the thing you draw on over the course of a long trial. of course, we expect the appeal, it doesn't look very good in terms of the round, so we'll see what happens. thank you very much. >> good to see you. >> still ahead, a new york judge, dealing a crushing blow to the trump company. what exactly is the corporate death penalty, and is that what we have here? what does this mean for the trump organization. i'm still unclear, but it will be clarified, right after this break. break. >> yesterday evening, leading republican presidential candidate, declared a fraud in court. a new york state judge finding the donald j trump, in this business, committed fraud for nearly a decade. it is devastating to the ex president, a man who has built his image on the far's that he is a successful businessman. he called, it quote, the hottest brand in the world. so it was the ex president that is associating and 900 fill in air -- but in the civil lawsuit with the attorney general they found that trump lied to banks, an insurance company, spied flipping his assets to obtai favorable as well. they inflated their net worth by billions. they saw that the judge ordered the business certificates in new york, quote, within ten days of the date of this o, the parties directed to recommend the names of potential, independent receivers, to manage the dissolution of the cancel to llcs. it is the equivalent of the corporate death penalty. trump appealed to, quote, the un-american decision. there's a ton of open questions about what this really means for the trump organization. several of trump's businesses could be dissolved, their assets liquidated, and has the trump organization finally been caught after, what appeared to be, decades of evading the war? what happened to businesses now? the pulitzer prize-winning journalist as reported from many that this is the best selling author of how donald trump fleeced america, and enrich himself, his family joins me now. so, we should say, first off the bat, he probably will appeal, and this will be stayed. there is a bit of time, i would suspect, before they get this receivership. let's just start at, at a granular level, the dissolution of certificates in the receiver, what does that mean? >> you want to via business proprietor. i write books on articles for a living. if i wanted to incorporate myself, i would have to get permission from the state, in the business license certificates. and the trump organization is a corporation, set up under new york law, and only able to operate with the permission of the state. the judges order says, all certificates are canceled. you cannot operate the businesses. this does not mean that they won't continue to operate, someone will continue to clean offices of trump tower, and act as a dormant, but this will be monitored by a judge margaret jones, and the judge will, eventually, appoint a receiver whose job will be to liquidate these assets, and who will get paid last. >> they're reporting about what liquidation means, and would dissolve. it is liable for fraud, and is this caving decision for trump to sell his real estate. physical assets like trump tower, 40 wall street, is the court under the impression that those assets are to be stalled, or they've going to be managed under the monitor? trump attorney asked. i'm not prepared to issue a ruling right now, the judge responded. it does seem like there is a big difference between those two, right? >> the judge is going to see how much and damage as this is laying out. it is up to the lawyers to try to convince a judge to make a legal error. he is wise to these guys, and not going to do that. it is, i suppose, theoretically possible that trump is a passive investor, and that someone else will run these assets. where would the money come if the penalties are due to the state and all these frauds? it is over a quarter of a billion dollars, and trump doesn't have that kind of money. >> what is teed up here is, as i understand, it she seeking a quarter of a billion dollars. one of these seven complaints was found in order of the plaintive, laetitia james, six more will be tried, and then there will be a finding of the fee, the penalty, for the fraud. basically, what is teed up is, the llc goes into a receiver, the receiver auctions of, or selves parts of it to dissolve it, to pay the money that is owed the state. >> correct. that is, essentially, what you will see happen as well. it was federal, and under state business law. so, the basic concept is exactly correct there, chris. the word all is very important. if trump is a fraudster, you cannot say, you can't operate you're golf course, you can't operate another building. you are not allowed to have a new york into sons, or a couple other people, and they named in the litigation. is going to take time to go with it, and the trump tower is going up for sale, and they're leaving it up for sale. this is going way out overtime. there will be lots of arguments with trump's lawyers about each step of the proceedings. >> you said it on the piece with this. trumsizarre, factory, and frivolous arguments made through all those who see him as their hero, or savior. but in a court of law, all trump's lies get turned into child is nonsense. i see a colleague of mine say something along the lines of, once again, trump's schtick does not survive first contact with the court of law. you can see this over, and over, and over again. once you walked into a court, where there is evidence that defines fact, it just does not work. >> and one of the surprising parts of, this chris, is that so many lawyers are willing to ruin the reputations, and risky disbarment, like rudy giuliani, sydney powell, and john eastman, on behalf of trump. when a judge, as this one does, calls a lawyers argument frivolous, he is essentially saying, you are not an officer of the court presenting a learned argument, you're a drunk in a bar. he is fined five trump, more than 70 $500, and it was each of it as well. >> it is wild how often that with case, after case, that is how they're going with it as well. >> still to come, trump the front runner, is terrified of debating. it is they equally indicted ex president, what is he trying to avoid? 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not looking great themselves. south carolina governor nikki haley and tim scott slammed the striking autoworkers in recent days, with scott saying they should just be fired. both of them have yet to break the 10% line and morning consult primary tracker. florida governor, ron desantis, once seen as a strong alternative, has been dropping like stone in the primary since he announced. he pulled support north of 30% of the beginning of the year, but at tonight's debate he has dropped half that, now registering at just 15%, with reporting at least one big donor may be open to switching from desantis to the lower polling nikki haley. -- vivek ramaswamy, mike pence, chris christie, and doug burgum all pull between one and 9% support. these are the people the ex president is afraid of, if people he is doing anything he can to hide from. from i needed more from my antidepressant. vraylar helped give it a lift. adding vraylar to an antidepressant... is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles, or confusion, as these may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death, weight gain, and high cholesterol may occur. movement dysfunction and restlessness are common side effects. stomach and sleep issues, dizziness, increased appetite, and fatigue are also common. side effects may not appear for several weeks. i didn't have to change my treatment. i just gave it a lift. ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save. after advil. feeling better? on top of the worlddddd!!! before advil. advil targets pain at the source of inflammation. when pain comes for you, come back fast with advil liqui-gels. hi. i use febreze fade defy plug. and i use this. febreze has a microchip to control scent release so it smells first-day fresh for 50 days. 50 days!? and its refill reminder light means i'll never miss a day of freshness. ♪ >> when florida governor ron how's the chicken? the prawns are delicious. oh, i have a shellfish allergy. one prawn. very good. did i say chicken wrong? tired of people not listening to what you want? it's truffle season! ah that's okay... never enough truffles. how much are they? it's a lot. oh okay - i'm good, that - it's like a priceless piece of art. enjoy. or when they sell you what they want? yeah. the more we understand you, the better we can help you. that's what u.s. bank is for. huge relief. yeah... ♪ desantis -- probably later than he should have, it is widely considered the top challenger to trump, and i think he had a pretty clear path to at least being competitive, he really making it a race. all he had to do, all, really, anyone would have to do is to take on the president's to consolidate what you might call the normal republican vote, to bring together, in one coalition, all the anti trump and trump fatigued republicans and conservatives. now, there are a lot of these people, they may not be -- the party. but these folks, for instance, chose real conservative republican candidates last year, like governor brian kemp of georgia while rejecting maga candidates like herschel walker for senate in the same state on the same election. but that is not what desantis did. instead, he went to the opposite direction, right? he was going to beat trump to his right. he leaned into some of the most extreme, divisive positions, railing against vaccines, obsessing over trans children, going to war against disney. and clearly, it was the wrong call. it's not working. he has fallen as low as 12% in recent polls, nearly 40 points behind trump. now, to be fair to desantis, none of the other candidates have succeeded in consolidating support against trump either. but some at least have actually tried, like nikki haley, who is attempting to carve out a more, quote unquote, normal lane without being too critical of the ex president. so, as the candidates excluding trump take the debate stage tonight, can haley successfully walk that line, or can haley actually put together something like that brian kemp coalition nationwide. susan del percio he's a veteran political strategist, and symone sanders-townsend served as senior adviser for biden 2020 -- she is the host of symone, on msnbc and peacock. -- a fundamental miscalculation of what his path was. she he had to go for the people who had to go for trump, enough for this guy, or don't like january 6th. but they like conservative republicans. they don't like democrats. and that seems to me like there were votes to get there. but he just went the opposite direction. what do you think? >> i think he came in way too late. and we have to remember, trump was most vulnerable in december, january, february. that was the time to debate that shot. because if you are going to be the alternative to trump, you know you need? you need trump not to be in the race. you need to take him out early. and they never did. except for chris christie. and at that time he was not even seriously considering a run, or no one knew that he was. no one could do anything, they just kind of said, okay, he's going to fall apart on his own. we all want to get his base and do what they could. and desantis basically panics and says, oh, my, he's still here, and getting stronger. what do i do? what you said, chris hayes i'm going to go to the right. -- he his numbers with independent women from florida is 61 disapproval. >> wow. >> independent women in florida. >> that was in march. and it only gets worse. that was after winning an election by -- points. >> go ahead. >> i would say the reason why ron desantis has not been able to replicate what brian kemp has been able to do is because they have not been willing to do what brian kemp was willing to do. kemp was willing to stand against donald trump when it came to constitutional democracy, put country over party, say wrong is right, right is right, i'm not going along with the country. and ron desantis -- willing to do that. the 15-week abortion ban, ron desantis went to six weeks. don't want women to have any abortions, don't want women to have any choice. -- >> i want to be clear on what i'm saying about brian kemp, whose politics i do not like and do not share. he is a right-wing republican. he just has is not a pro coup republican. he's everything. he is everything you want in a republican. he is a right-wing, but he is anti coup and he is against trump trying to pull off a coup. >> he is a republican. he is not a trumpster. he does not follow the path of trump. he follows the path of republican conservative politics. he never bought into trump was the party. >> right. people say they that does not exist anymore. -- a little overstated as shown by brian kemp's success. it does not mean you are going to beat him. but it just seems like, the obvious way, if it was just going to beat him -- say it was just nikki haley in trump. we went down to just haley and trump. there's a lot of, again, right-wing conservative republicans who are just like, oh, trump? really, again? you can at least build for that. maybe there's 35, percent of the primary. you've got to get those people first. >> -- some of these independents we are now on voters can go in and -- >> their distaste for the guy -- >> especially in a state where new hampshire, where there is not going to be a primary debate, where the rules are whatever for biden, really. so, the independents, who are 38% of voters in new hampshire, they can all vote in the republican primary. >> here's the thing. none of the -- we just really laid out what it is, at least nikki haley needs to do. i think ron desantis is too far gone. i think he's never been a good national candidate. he is not a good campaigner. he looks uncomfortable. with nikki haley, maybe. the problem is, neither she, nor anyone else, that is viable, save chris christie, is not willing to do what brian kemp did. and i agree. i don't agree with brian kemp. >> that one line that you really have to draw -- >> they are unwilling to draw the. line nikki haley will tiptoe mirror, but she's not willing to go over it -- because of that, none of these candidates will be able to take donald trump out. so then, folks like these conservatives but these non maga-verse publicans, they are going to have a decision to make in the general election. and i listened to cassidy hutchinson today with nicolle wallace. -- and she was like, i'm not going to go there yet. it is a lot of cassidy hutchinson's out there, honey. and if you are not going to vote for a not joe biden in a general election, it's -- >> put up this polling today because we had the string of polls that showed -- the economist yougov that has den up 35 -- 45 -- then certainly -- 52% of the vote. none of this predicted we're 14 months out. here's the thing, susan del percio, that i think is weird about the republican party, and all this resignation. it does seem like you are walking into a trap. again, i get that everyone thinks that nothing can actually damage him politically and he's teflon or whatever. and i do think it's not going to be great to not rally around the nominee, who becomes nominee right around the time of the federal juries, heading down a federal guilty verdict. i don't think that's gonna be very good politically for the guy. and then you are locked into it. >> here's the problem. and here's the issue with public polling. when i work on the -- campaign, we used fine polak polling to find out who is gettable. they set narratives. and that is what is dangerous. so, donald trump does not -- to fight him on the electability argument, why would you? he's tied. >> exactly. even though i don't think that is what it is going to be the day after he is possibly convicted of a -- >> but you can't use that -- >> donald trump has been on the ballot in 20. he picked candidates in 22. none of them were successful. >> i know. >> so -- >> we will see tonight. susan del percio and symone sanders-townsend, great to have you both. that is "all in" on this once in. and i will see you back here on this wednesday night for 11 pm but -- "alex wagner tonight" starts right now, alex. >> i don't even know we are talking about, this show is happening right now, and we are really excited to talk about what we will talk about. i'll see yat

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