that donald trump committed fraud by grossly inflating the value of his real estate holdings exposes the trump org. it's nothing more than a house of cards. and the impact of the judge's stunning ruling -- "by effectively branding him a cheat, the decision in t civil proceeding by justice ar chur f. underlined mr. trump's persona he used to mesh himself in the fabric of popular culture and that eventually gave him the stature and resources to reach the white house." now, some ofhe most recognizableig and symbols of the trump empire could be taken away from him. as "the new york times" reports, new york attorney general letitia james hast to bar trump from doing business in new york in part by canceling certificates that allow his properties to operate there. the justice granted that punishment, which could have enormous repercussions for the trump organization. for example, he could lose control of several properties including trump tower in midtown manhattan and a flagship commercial building at 40 wall street. his grip over his westchester countryol club is also threatened." the judge makes it clear that donald trump has no one to blame but himself, not just for years of fraud but mounting a defense on, quote, bogus arguments. "in defendants' world, rent-regulated parms are the same as unregulated apartments. restrictions can evaporate into thin air. the attorney general of the state of new york does not have the capacity to sue or the standing to sue since square footage is ubtive. this is a fantasy world, not the real world." now looming over donald trump, his family and the trump org is the prospect of even more pain. the trial could start as early as monday. "new york times" reports, "if mr. trump does not successfully have the ruling reversed before then, the proceeding will largely focus on the size of the penalty against him." donald trump's political brand exposed as a complete fraud is where we begin. with us at the table for the hour, former u.s. senator claire mccaskill is back. also pulitzer prize-winning "new york times" investigations reporter russ buettner. our friend sue craig and he have been reporting on trump's finance for years. and andrew weissmann, msnbc legal analyst joins us. so what we know about trump's finances from your reporting and sue's reporting, and she feels here with some of these arguments, and she thought it was -- i won't put words in her mouth, but she said the judge seemed somewhat exasperated. i think that's fair to say. the rules goes beyond to exasperation. >> most certainly. i have not read many judgments that have this kind of language in them when he's clearly irritated both with the lawyers for repeatedly making sort of specious arguments, for truncating previous decisions in a way that is favor to believe them, thinking the judge is not going to catch that, and then also for just the way they've repeatedly -- they say this is just a numbers game of donald trump, and he went on in his deposition about he's got this beautiful clause that tells the banks this document is worthless. and the judge has said it really does not. when you tell someone, a bank you're trying to get money from, an insurance company you're trying to lower your rate on, that a property is worth something and you withhold the fact you've had it appraised for a third of that value from them, that's a fraud. you're misleading them. and the judge really has grown increasingly exasperated as this thing has gone on. >> andrew, the judge goes so far as to say this -- "the defenses trump attempts to articulate in his sworn deposition are without basis in law or fact. he claims that the values of the property have gone up in the years since the statements of financial condition were submitted, then the numbers were not inflapted at that time. he also implies the numbers could not be inflated because he could, quote, find a buyer from saudi arabia to pay any price he suggests." jared kushner on line two. what was the $2 billion for after all? there is, if not an admission of guilt, an acknowledgment that nothing was on the up and up. >> so, remember, for viewers, this is a civil case, and the judge's findings are per tup ra tif because he's incredibly exasperated at the idea that lawyers and someone who used to be the leader of the free world is making these kinds of representations. that is not normal. in white kollar cases with reputable lawyers, this is not what happens. people are serious and there's a real issue on one side or the other. you got a sense from this judge, the reason he's saying this is a fantasy is because he's seen played out in court what we all see play out in real life in terms of how he operates, which is, you know, saying things like clorox can cure covid and the like. it reminds me of what amy berman jackson, the judge in d.c., said, and she said this is a place in courts in the united states where facts and law matter. i think what you're seeing here is, whether it's the criminal trump organization conviction this past fall or this decision, this is a place where facts and law matter. and a judge is standing up for that. and you're seeing this schism to trump, you know, continuing outside of court trying to say, you know, it's attacking the judge, saying this is all fictitious, this isn't what the rule of law is. and that is the tension we are seeing play out here. we're going to see it continue to play out in four criminal cases against donald trump. >> what's interesting about this case in particular is that a lot of the conduct is the kind of thing that trump bragged about. he thought he was smart to say one thing to one person for a favorable thing and another thing to another person. it's like not turning over his taxes for the first time in republican history. he thought it was smart, told a convenient lie. to andrew's point, it also illustrates the slow process of the law catching up with him. do you think it finally is in this case? >> i think the law is going to catch up with donald trump. now, the question is at what point will juries be able to make a decision and at what point do you have a less an unanimous verdict because of what's happen in the country. people are going to get sick of me saying this, but the criminal trials particularly against donald trump, the case will be won or lost. we won't know it at voir dire, and that's the process by which the jury is selected, because if someone doesn't tell the complete truth about their ability to be fair and they get on a jury and want to hang it up for donald trump -- but i want to talk about the political implications of this ruler for a second. here's the thing. donald trump realized there was a huge number of people in this country that were so full of grievance and cynicism about where they were in life, and they are easily convinced, because they already believed it, that everybody with money and power lies. everybody in washington lies. all the rich billionaires are crooks. that's how they became billionaires. so in their minds when they see this, you know what they think? everybody does this, they're just picking on him because he's our guy. that's the most corrosive thing he has done, is he has wink-wink, nod-nod to a whole bunch of americans saying, you know what, you're right, everybody in washington is no good, and everybody who's rich is no good, and everybody cheats. the difference between you and them is that they get away with it and you don't. so, they see that this is a poor guy getting picked on because he is donald trump and their savior. >> i think that's right, but i also think -- and maybe everything i once knew about the republican party is moot and should be burned in mark meadows' fireplace with everything else, but i think republicans used to not like being made fools of. i think what your body of reporting shows is they made a fool of everybody. he was never a successful businessman. he was cast as one on an nbc tv show. >> he was. and to claire's point, i do think you tapped into what's been very kroelsive about him in the public world. but i wonder if he saw that and took advantage of it. >> i think he did. >> he did. >> there were examples of him as a 30-year-old trust fund boy saying he was persecuted by city officials saying they wouldn't approve his building and they were being unfair. that's something he's embodied throughout his life, and i think he believes it because he wants to be seen as a hero triumphing over all obstacles. >> everything. >> did the nation come to him or he -- >> found them. >> he also presented himself, and whether he believed it or not, when he squandered a lot of his dad's money. >> it's incredible. he invested in -- he just went crazy in the late 1980s, and banks would give him any amount of money he wanted. he thought that meant he could produce the revenue to support that. he thought if his name was on a building, an airline, anything, it would create whatever amount of revenue he wanted to have. he said repeatedly, we're not worried about the business. it will be there. that i can't describecrashed an. he went back to his father. these games took place when they were trying to take over his father's estate, he and his siblings. his father made so much money, there was too much cash. they were trying to lower his tax bill. they took the one property they have not maintained well, because for 20 years trump had been channeling african american tenants to this building and didn't maintain it. ugly, corrosive stuff. it was in bad shape. they gave that one away and declared a charitable contribution that was easily double what that building was worth to lower their father's property tax bill -- i'm sorry, their father's income tax bill so there would be more of an inheritance for him. this stuff goes back to his early adulthood. >> what is the legal significance of the judge ruling on the fraud question at this point? >> so, he had motions for summary judgment. both sides were saying the fact is so clear and the law is on our side that we don't need a trial. you can rule on the papers after discovery. and the judge, in order to do that, has to find that there is sort of no real dispute as to the facts. it's sufficiently clear. and he did that with respect to letitia james and denied the motion that donald trump was making. that is certainly a grounds that will be appealed to say there should be a trial. it's not clear donald trump would do better with a jury. on the other hand, he can't really do worse than the decision that just came out. i would say something that you've said, and, claire, you've said about this decision, that i think is important. before we sort of go to -- this decision is so huge in terms of its impact on him with respect to something he cares deeply about, which is money. i don't say that derogatorily. people are in business, they're there to make money. and this is taking away a huge part of how he supports himself. you said about this upcoming election, there is a huge amount of incentive for him to run, to stay out of jail. i think i've heard you say that, claire, that that is sort of what he's running for. but now you can add into that which is that if he's trying to figure out how he's going to make money and be solvent, that is the second reason that he is going to be really desperately doing i think, because he's proved himself to be lawless, doing everything and anything to win this upcoming election, both to stay out of jail and because you really have the world caving in on him financially. >> it's such a good point, because in trump, there's always a projection. i don't remember the day, but i think you can go back to some of his early whining about, oh, this has cost me so much money. the opposite is true. you have the secret service staying at his properties in scotland. you had -- i mean, you had them bilking foreign investors. can we deal with that for a second? he says this in his own defense in a deposition, like, i could get the saudis to pay me anything. it seems like more than a legal story. it seems like a national security question. >> well, of course, i immediately -- i thought of done junior and eric talking about the connection to the russians. i mean, these are people with not a lot of super ego to filter out what they're really thinking, so it just comes right out. when you looked at the mar-a-lago documents and saw the sort of brief descriptions in the indictment, the number of documents relating to foreign countries, the first thing i thought about in terms of -- and, again, this is -- we don't know yet -- is that the connection is there. some way he thought he could use this to essentially monetize it. and, you know, obviously there's 2 billion reasons to be suspicious because, you know, jared kushner, i know he went to harvard and went to nyu with some help to get in, but i don't think that made him particularly adept at getting $2 billion to run a business and, you know, with saudi arabians. >> whether he's good at it or not, i don't know anything about that, but i don't think anyone in the world would argue he's better than steve mnuchin. >> right. >> i think we're back at unanswered questions. the interesting thing about these lawsuits, claire, to your point, i agree his base has hardened and their mind is made up, and they see, one more random person who doesn't know any of the other three prosecutors randomly picking on donald trump. i'm sure you're right many will conclude. but there is -- i think even trump would acknowledge that this was essential. he wins in iowa after flying a helicopter around the iowa state fair. i think the trappings of wealth are very much part of what he showcased to that base, and it seems like there may be fewer of them. >> well, first of all, i don't think it is the normal republican party that you remember that is in the group i mentioned. this is what i call the new weird trump republican party where up is down and down is up. >> yeah, yeah. >> and woe don't have free trade anymore and we don't care about protecting democracy or freedom around the world. and i really do think the interesting thing, when i would go around missouri and i'd go to very, very pro-trump areas and do town halls, i would invariably have a private conversation with some of the people there that didn't support me but were wildly supportive of donald trump. i would ask them questions. invariably they would say to me, he's such a successful businessman. >> yeah. >> and we need a successful businessman in the white house. and, you know, they bought -- the reason they did was because of "the apprentice." they all watched that show. you're fired. it was just a show. it was all made-up b.s., but people bought that he was a wonderful businessman. essentially his entire adult life has been a scam. his entire adult life. his business model was don't pay taxes, don't pay people who work for you, lie. my favorite thing in this was him saying that his apartment was 30,000 square feet when it was 11,000 square feet. who does that? who does that? >> what's amazing, too, is that some of the lies are complex financial lies. but some you can solve with a tape measure. like that one. right? >> like a do do bird. who does that? and then he's got all these people, god love them, that are scraping out a living, that can't afford to retire, that can't afford to go on vacation, that see him as their business hero. >> it's sick. russ, what happens to trump tower? >> that's an excellent question. i'm not certain about what this all means, about what the cancellation of the business certificates means. putting the thing in receivership, as i understand it, and i'd love andrew's thought, that he can't actually run the thing, has to take a step back, and probably can't distributions from it. that's really his one consistent money maker is the commercial space in trump tower. but i also wonder, there's an entity called d.j. holdings that owns almost everything else, right? they possess 100% interest in, i don't know, eight or nine of his golf courses. and that's listed in here. so what happens to that? maybe it's not just new york properties. i think what happens is they shut it down or take away management from him, a receiver runs it, he can't take any money out of it until the case is resolved to make sure there's enough money there to pay whatever judgment comes in. >> exactly. so, a lot of the properties you think of as owned by trump are not owned by trump. like trump tower. >> nothing is real. >> it's just -- it's got his name on it, and he is paid a sort of management fee that his company helps to run it and can get money from running it, from commercial space. but the actual apartments are ones that individuals own, and so they keep that. but all the money he is getting from golf courses in new york, from managing companies, all of that is going to be in receivership. so, his source of money is now going to be overseen by the court, and this is basically because you have the new york attorney general saying with respect to any fraudster in new york, that's not happening here in this state. >> amazing. thank you so much for being here. for all of your reporting on this, again, it forms the foundation of a lot of what we understand and what has been flushed out in this process. claire and andrew, stick around. when we come back, propagating donald trump comes with risks. d.a. fani willis is opening up about the tlepts to her and her extended family. plus, they've said it themselves. the republicans have absolutely zero, zilch, nada in terms of evidence to justify the impeachment of president joe biden. yet those same republicans in that same party are moving full steam ahead with their spectacle tomorrow. a new series to keep the government running this weekend. congressman dan goldman will be our guest. and later, cassidy hutchinson is familiar to all of our viewers. she'll be at the table joining us live, talking about what she saw behind the scenes at the white house on january 6th as the insurrection unfolded before her eyes. i promise - as an independent advisor - to put the financial well-being of you and your family first. i promise to serve, not sell. i promise our relationship will be one of partnership and trust. i am a fiduciary, not just some of the time, but all of the time. charles schwab is proud to support the independent financial advisors who are passionately dedicated to helping people achieve their financial goals. visit findyourindependentadvisor.com ma, ma, ma— ( clears throat ) for fast sore throat relief, try vicks vapocool drops. with two times more menthol per drop, and powerful vicks vapors to vaporize sore throat pain. vicks vapocool drops. vaporize sore throat pain. the power goes out and we still have wifi vicks vapocool drops. to do our homework. and that's a good thing? 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racially charged threats and hatred that she's receiving, that her loved ones have faced. she simply does her job and pursues her criminal election interference case against the disgraced ex-president and 18 of his co-defendants. she says her staff and daughters have been ta, even her 85-year-old father and her ex-husband have had unwelcome visitors on their doorsteps, trying to intimidate willis. after having their private information posted online and racial slurs and suggestions of violence. all of it she says, while ugly and troubling, is also, quote, a waste of time, that will not deter her from doing her job. we're back with andrew and claire. again, you go back to gang prosecutions, go back to mexican drug cartel prosecutions to find the parallel to what trump supporters and trump is doing to these judges and prosecutors. >> it is so unreal we're sitting at a table discussing the former leader of the free world is making statements knowing darn well the sort of call and response effect he has. he lived through january 6th. that's what it was about, the call and response. you have fani willis speaking out, but the same thing is going on with respect to the judge overseeing the d.c. charges. today donald trump spoke in threatening terms in my view with respect to the judge who issued the opinion against him that we talked about. something terrible is going to happen. just to add one insult to injury in the donald trump filing in d.c. with respect to the so-called gag order, that's an issue that's pending, it's ripe, you can't any about a more important time, the import of the grief that donald trump submitted was to say, i'm not responsible for anything a third party does, i can say whatever i want about judges, jurors, prosecutors, family members. it's my first amendment right to say any of that. and if there's someone who responds, it's not on me. to be me, that is the part of that brief and what's going on that is so dangerous. it will be very interested to see how the d.c. judge and the other judges overseeing trump on bail, how they respond to this increased level of serious risk of violence. >> i haven't heard you say before, and i was out sick yesterday, so if i missed it, i'm sorry, but "something terrible is going to happen." i said that the day i saw the jack smith filing in this case. say more about why you think that's the case. >> again, this is not me sort of trying to be -- prognosticating. look at paul pelosi. look at the woman who's now being prosecuted for having threatened the federal judge overseeing the d.c. indictment. those are real examples of the call and response in the exact same way that there are scores and scores and scores of people who are being prosecuted in washington, d.c., in connection with what happened on january 6th. and why do they all say why they were there? because of a call and response to the president. so, the idea that there isn't something terribly bad that is going to happen to someone, i mean, law enforcement is -- you know, can only be so good, and we're sitting here, and that's not a risk that people should be facing for doing their jobs. ruby freeman and shane moss ert are classic examples. that is not an inchoate -- not some conspiracy that never worked. they are living with the consequences of those threats and that kind of language that was used with respect to them. so, i'm praying of course -- >> we all want to be wrong. >> right. >> but i think that what we're saying and so obvious and harrowing about the posture of the current republican party is that they think it won't happen to them. but rusty bowers would argue otherwise. raffensperger and his wife. eventually, trump turns the mob on everybody. >> first of all, andrew and i were talking about this before we came on today. the lawyer that signed the pleading answering jack smith's request to try to get this man to behave like any defendant in a criminal case is required to behave, i wondered if his hand was shaking when he signed the pleading, because it is against everything -- even donald trump deserves a defense. i mean, that's our constitution, and we revere it. so, i get it that everybody deserves a defense. but they don't deserve having a lawyer that would do the kinds of things these lawyers are doing only his behalf. secondly, i wish somebody would put together a video, retrospeck tich or a book, but the video would probably be more powerful, of all the threats that are out there. i think if people could see someone coming to her 85-year-old grandfather's house to harass him, if they could hear the "n" word being used as casually as you say good morning in the context of this incredibly accomplished professional woman. you know, if people were bombarded with how ugly this underbelly of the trump support is, i think it would be a powerful thing in this country. i think people hear it from her saying my family is being threatened, but they don't really -- >> they see her armor against it. >> exactly. >> but we don't hear -- i think that's right. i think alvin bragg has also been targeted. >> exactly. >> you look at doj, the resources they have to protect it officials and staff, and i imagine they dwarf the resources that some of these local prosecutors have. i remember when alvin bragg was targeted by trump and his supporters, and it was the same sort of thing -- white powder that ended up being innocuous. the call and response is so well established, i wonder if you think there's more that can be done to protect these people. >> just remember that there was a photo of donald trump with a baseball bat. >> right. >> and alvin bragg's head. you know, i'm old enough to remember roger stone posting a picture of the judge overseeing his case with crosshairs on it and then a hearing where he lied about it in the same way that donald trump said, oh, i was doing a promotion for american products, which is -- doesn't really require that and alvin bragg's head being in the same vicinity. to me, there's sort of two issues. one is you are, when you are out on bail on one case, leapt alone four cases, not entitled to the same rights as the rest of us. >> right. >> so, this is not a first amendment issue at all. this is an issue of restrictions that can be placed on your freedom when you are under indictment. and i think that is sort of the main issue for the courts to deal with before something happens. it really is something where you don't wait for the defendant to, you know, really incite violence to happen. >> but, i mean, to your point, all these truth social posts about the judges, the parallel in history is be there, it will be wild. he has called them before. they have answered. >> you know, and nicolle, i think we all have the knowledge that trump gets a rush out of seeing people do lawless things. >> out of response. >> in his name. >> right. >> he loves it. it makes him feel powerful and successful. >> yeah. >> to have these people out there, you know, doing -- a truck going up and down the street, rusty bowers' neighborhood, calling him a pedophile. that makes donald trump smile. that makes him feel vindicated. and that is truly sick. i mean, if you think about that. he's not upset about these people harassing and threatening these people. he thinks it's great. >> and it works. i keep on going back to the report from mitt romney saying that there were senators who did not adhere to their oaths because they were afraid. >> mitch mcconnell, they nailed him. all right. you both are sticking around. i apologize for the tick until my throat. that's how professional they are. i'm hacking away and they keep calmly speaking. up next, the government shutdown. they're plowing ahead with a sham impeachment inquiry as well. that's next. somedays, i cover up because of my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer 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(how do you feel about that?) pretty sad. i posted it to show that kenny's not always happy. within 24 hours people had donated over $5,000. no, you're kidding. (we set up the patriotic kenny foundation) (to give mobility scooters to veterans.) it has changed my life tremendously. (none of this would've happened without tiktok.) how's the chicken? the prawns are delicious. oh, i have a shellfish allergy. one prawn. very good. did i say chicken wrong? tired of people not listening to what you want? it's truffle season! ah that's okay... never enough truffles. how much are they? it's a lot. oh okay - i'm good, that - it's like a priceless piece of art. enjoy. or when they sell you what they want? yeah. the more we understand you, the better we can help you. that's what u.s. bank is for. huge relief. yeah... ♪ steven booth is a plif for the air force in kansas. he has six kids under the age of 15, and like many americans he lives paycheck to paycheck. as the nation hurdles a shutdown that would halt way to 4 million employees, booth, also a veteran,s trying to figure out what he's going to do at the end of this month. he said, "you te away a paycheck, how am i going to live for the next two weeks? how can i take care of my kids and my wife? that type of mind-set ends up causing bad things to go through some people's minds, and some people can't get through it." that makes you feel mad or sad. just wait. it gets worse. while house speaker kevin mccarthy and his merry band of misfits in the republican party who will, of course, continue to get paid, by the way, flail about in budget negotiations, they're making very clear what their actual priorities are. tomorrow, the gop-controlled house oversight committee will convene for its first impeachment inquiry hearing. by the way, none of the witnesses slated to testify appear to have any direct knowledge of what house republicans have alleged about president joe biden. let's bring in democratic congressman daniel goldman of new york, joining us from the capitol. claire and andrew are with us. congressman, i wonder if you want to yield your time to all the republican members who have said we have no evidence, zero, zilch, nada. >> yeah. exactly. i mean, it's pretty remarkable that we are where we are, and it's very telling that the very first hearing of this so-called impeachment inquiry is with a bunch of people who have no knowledge, as you say, no direct knowledge, no factual knowledge of any of the allegations. that's largely because there is no factual evidence to support an impeachment inquiry, which is the reason why the speaker did not have a vote to go forward with impeachment even though he said he would. that's because there are a number of republicans who have gone public to say that the evidence is not there linking joe biden to any wrongdoing, and yet here we are, 48 hours from a government shutdown, moving forward with an impeachment inquiry. >> congressman, what is the appropriate response? and what advice do you have for how we talk about it or cover it? it seems they may benefit from recent muscle memory of to huh the very legitimate impeachments of donald trump were covered and handled. >> right. i mean, look, i think it's very clear what we have going on here. there is a mob boss down in mar-a-lago who is directing his soldiers in the house of representatives on the republican side to both move forward with an impeachment inquiry as retribution for those that donald trump suffered from or endured, i should say, and the four criminal indictments, and also that he wants to shut down the government. and you have marjorie taylor greene, who linked them together, and the extreme rem party acting at the behest of donald trump, is leading us down a horrific path of a sham impeachment and a government shutdown that is not what either what the american people want. >> congressman, i'm curious. from where you sit, it appears from where i sit that kevin mccarthy is the worst negotiator in the history of washington politics. i have never before seen someone give the other side what they want before there's ever any negotiation. and that's what this stupid impeachment inquiry is. it was a fig leaf to try to paper over the fact that he's got a group of people that don't want him to be speaker anymore. they just don't want him to be speaker anymore. and he can't keep the government open without democratic volts. that's clear. how does this end? are we going to be calling somebody else speaker before we're saying trick or treat? >> look, i think there's a lot that remains to be seen. as leader jeffries said earlier today, you know, we stand ready to pass the senate continuing resolution that they are going to put forward. the democrats in the house support that. we do not want a shutdown. we do not think a shutdown is justified. we do not want that gentleman that you kwoepted at the beginning of this segment to have to endure exactly what he described. and the preposterous posture that the republicans have here by not only leading us into a shutdown -- because remember, claire, and you know this, all the bills they are work og on right now do nothing to prevent a shutdown. first of all, they'll never past muster in the senate. they may not even pass the house. and even if they did, they would not provide funding past saturday. so, it's all just a game it seems for the few hard-right hard-liners who have the speaker in a vice and that can just continue to turn it and turn it, and he refuses to stand up to them. now we have parallel tracks of this absurd impeachment inquiry, and a government shutdown is made more preposterous by the fact that the chairman said impeachment staff are essential employees, so they will get paid and go forward with the impeachment inquiry while gentlemen like the one you referenced earlier will not get their paychecks, as will hundreds of thousands of other federal workers. it is a sad, sad state of affairs, and i don't know what the way out of it is unless speaker mccarthy is willing to partner with democrats and the senate in order to pass a very reasonable continuing resolution that the senate is putting forward. >> congressman goldman, i was wondering if you heard our last segment. we were busy talking about the sort of increased rhetoric about violence and the threats to of violence that are going on in this country. obviously, we all look to january 6th. but just the rhetoric coming from the former president and the actual instances of violence that we're seeing. and now we're seeing it with respect to not jux the election workers, freeman and moss, with respect to threats to judges, prosecutors, jurors needing to be protected, family members. and i was wondering if you thought there was anything that people in congress could do. there's obviously a connection with the impeachment. you're seeing some rational republicans peel off from this. is there any chance for there to be any sort of condemnation and a bipartisan way for trying to tone this down before we see essentially some really horrific action occurring? >> yeah. andrew, as you well know from your organized crime prosecution days, these are the tactics of a mob boss. i was so struck by the excerpt in "the atlantic" of mitt romney's book, where he said he had republicans tell him they changed their vote because they were afraid for their families. and if we are living in a congress right now where people are voting to avoid threats of violence and potential violence stirred up by one man down at mar-a-lago, we're in a really dangerous place. and the only way for that to stop is for the extreme maga republicans, who are aligned with donald trump, to stand up to him and to say, this is not okay. and the chances of that happening are, well, pretty slim. >> sad state of affairs. congressman daniel goldman, thank you. we'll continue to call on you. when we come back, president joe biden out with his first direct attack ad against donald trump, taking aim at the ex-president right after president biden's historic trip yesterday to michigan. we'll show you that new ad next. and struggle. ♪ and struggle with cpap. you should check out inspire. ♪ no mask. no hose. just sleep. inspire. sleep apnea innovation. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com to a child, this is what conflict looks like. children in ukraine are caught in the crossfire of war, forced to flee their homes. a steady stream of refugees has been coming across all day. it's bitterly cold. lacking clean water and sanitation. exposed to injury, hunger. exhausted and shell shocked from what they've been through. every dollar you give can help bring a meal, a blanket, or simply hope to a child living in conflict. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today with your gift of $10 a month, that's just $0.33 a day. we cannot forget the children in places like syria, born in refugee camps, playing in refugee camps, thinking of the camps as home. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today. with your gift of $10 a month, your gift can help children like ara in afghanistan, where nearly 20 years of conflict have forced the people into extreme poverty weakened and unable to hold herself up, ara was brought to a save the children's center, where she was diagnosed and treated for severe malnutrition. every dollar helps. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today. with your gift of $10 a month, just $0.33 a day. and thanks to special government grants that are available now, every dollar you give can multiply up to ten times the impact. and when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special save the children tote bag to show you won't forget the children who are living their lives in conflict. every war is a war against children. please give now. he says he stands with auto workers, but as president, trump passed tax delivering. passing laws that are increasing wages and creating good paying jobs. manufacturing is coming back to michigan because joe biden doesn't just talk, he delivers. >> that is president joe biden's first direct anti-trump ad of the 2024 campaign season taking trump on directly and highlighting the big difference between the records when it comes to standing up for workers. it comes after president biden became the first sitting president to visit a picket line. his visit to uaw workers striking in detroit, while donald trump is scheduled to visit a non-union shop with leaders begging him to stay away. president biden is also bringing the fight to trump's home turf. the ad will air on fox business ahead of the gop debate as well as on other national cable channels and digitally in the state of michigan. good move. >> yeah, it is a good move but he hasn't gotten near tough enough. they should have kicked him in the shins harder. >> what's the tough message? >> the trump administration, his department of labor, they ruled against unions at every stop, so they couldn't organize on property. they limited their rights to do collective bargaining. he has been against the minimum wage his entire career. back in '08 he said you can't give them 4% or 5%. pretty soon they're making more money than the people running the company. these are trump's quotes. >> i got the ad, too, the big lie is not what you think it is. >> exactly. it's that he cares about working people. he screwed working people when he was president repeatedly. and the job he says that supposedly he saved they weren't in union states. they were down south where there are right to work laws that are non-union shops. so any of these union members, these rank and file union members who think this guy has their back, i just think the ad could be -- and i know it's early and i'm sure that the rhetoric will get turned up and get more aggressive in the negative ads -- >> they're called contrast ads. i have to sneak in a quick break first. we'll all be right back. k in a k first. we'll all be right back. why choose between a longer life or quality of life? 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the prawns are delicious. oh, i have a shellfish allergy. one prawn. very good. did i say chicken wrong? tired of people not listening to what you want? it's truffle season! ah that's okay... never enough truffles. how much are they? it's a lot. oh okay - i'm good, that - it's like a priceless piece of art. enjoy. or when they sell you what they want? yeah. the more we understand you, the better we can help you. that's what u.s. bank is for. huge relief. yeah... ♪ after mr. giuliani had left the campus that evening, i went back up to our office and i found mr. meadows in his office on the couch scrolling through his phone, i remember leaning against the doorway and saying some interesting conversation with rudy, mark, sounds like we're going to go to the capitol. he didn't look up from his phone and said something to the effect of, there's a lot going on, cass, but i don't know, things might get real, real bad on january 6. >> hi, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. do you know how many people watch that moment? guess? 13 million americans watched that. that was former white house aide cassidy hutchinson's live testimony before the january 6th select committee last summer. 13 million. her testimony became instantly iconic. she pulled back the curtain on the shared national nightmare that was the trump administration. her testimony was not just riveting, it was relevant. there's a direct line from her testimony to the multiple criminal investigations, the disgraced twice impeached, four times indicted ex-president now faces. for more than a year we didn't hear from her again. she went out of the public eye, forced into hiding but she has come roaring back with a brand new book this weekend. it authors an even more fly on the wall perspective and feeling that includes bombshell new details. some of them likely to be relevant to those ongoing investigations, we'll get to them in a minute. but cassidy hutchinson's new book is not just explosive, it is also intimate and searing, a portrait of a young woman whose poise and grit and courage was hard-won. a portrait of an american patriot and public servant who was like all of us quite literally shattered by the events of january 6th. from the new book, quote, as i pull off-campus, military vans pour into the city, unloading hundreds of national guardsmen. nonscalable metal fencing is already erected around every street. my soul feels broken. washington looks like a war zone because of us. i have no groceries and haven't eaten all day. i wander the aisles aimlessly. life feels like a fever dream, completely unreal. i'm detached from myself. i abandon my cart in the middle of an aisle and leave without buying anything. mylues fill with frigid air as i walk to my car, tears rolling down my cheeks. i feel physical pain as i see the capitol dome as i cross the bridge into washington. i want to scream but i feel paralyzed. i don't turn on any lights when i enter my apartment. my body is on auto pilot as i walk from my front door to the living room. i collapse onto my couch staring at the ceiling. i feel my cellphone vibrate. it's mom and paul. mom is crying. she's begging me not to move to florida. paul interjects trying to diffuse the argument before it begins. he doesn't realize how little i care, how far gone i am. cassidy hutchinson joins us now. had you rog do? >> doing well, nicolle. how are you? >> doing well. we've covered you for so long and i've watched all your interviews. and i know mark very well. i find the beauty of the bearing of your soul on every page, and i want to ask you what you spend a lot of time writing about and that's your family. will you talk about that moment where your mom is -- because at this point on january 6th you still planned to go to mar-a-lago, right? >> i did. and it wasn't really until about two days before january 20th, inauguration day, that i was not going to move down to florida. on january 6th my parents sort of had reservations about me moving to florida once i made the decision to accept the president's offer. in that moment i knew what they were saying was true, and i knew that i should believe them. but there was that part of me that still felt that loyalty, and there's still a part of me as a loyal staffer in the administration that felt like january 6th was almost our fault. it was our fault for letting people around the president, people who are promoting these poisonous conspiracy theories, i felt it was our responsibility to stop january 6th from happening. and i felt that, you know, if i could go down to florida and help relish whatever sort of legacy there was left to relish, that was still my job to help do so. looking back now and i think it's important to say in the book, too, though, i wrote the book in realtime or at least i tried to write it realtime and without points of reflection. looking back now i realize it's completely irrational and i should not have felt that way. january 6th was the president's fault, and there were a series of enablers that helped it happen, but it wasn't my job and it was the wasn't of anybody else actually rational to stop what is clearly an irrational man, donald john trump. >> do you see a path -- as you said it's two days i think it's the 18th that your plans to go to florida fall apart. do you see a scenario, do you see a sliding door moment where you go to mar-a-lago and you don't ever testify? >> you know, i've speculated about that a lot the last year and a half, two years. you know, i'm someone that it's sort of difficult for me to think that way because i could try to speculate about that but it wouldn't really lead anywhere. but in saying that, i'm more worried if i had gone down to florida because i still had that sense of loyalty, and i think that's largely underscored because a lot of people in trump's circle aren't very willing to talk about the unspoken code of loyalty and the spoken code of loyalty. but i still have that feeling. and frankly, i had that feeling of loyalty to him for a year, year and a half afterwardsch and i fought against that, and i knew it was wrong but it was this push and pull inside of my soul. i say all this because i do fear if i had gone down to florida i would have just erased all the negative feelings i had about january 6th, and i think that's important with what we're facing now. like you said in the intro he's now been indicted four times, but there are a seeries of staffers who were in florida with him, wloorn either at the white house with him or part of the planning in the sedition that occurred on january 6th. so i think that when we look at this in the greater perspective and when we talk about this issue it's important to point out to our listeners that we need to be able to connect with those people and bring a level of humanity. and for starters he's a dangerous man, but he also demands this code of conduct and this code of loyalty that isn't normal. >> how do we do that? >> i wish i had the answers. i think -- i'm going to reference my friend alyssa farah griffin. alyssa spoke ought of january 6th and she worked at the white house. she was one of my closest friends but for a while -- >> you were mad at her. >> and i talk it about it in the book. i try to be as vulnerable as i can and candid as i can. frankly, i think a lot of the parts of the book aren't that fodder, but a lot of parts of my journey aren't meant to be fodder and i'm not trying to rewrite my own history. but i think about alyssa and after she spoke out after january 6th, she spoke out on the 7th and part of me was angry with her and i felt she'd broken that conduct and loyalty pledge. but there was another part of of me that was almost envious of her. when i reached the decision to be more forthcoming with the committee i reached out to alyssa. alyssa had no obligation to open her doors to me. she had no obligation to help me. she'd been on the forefront of this battle, quote-unquote battles, the battle for the truth for almost a year and a half at that point. but she opened her door and she let me in, and she was really the first person that helped me find that second chance. >> that's a great part of the story telling, and we'll go out of order but we have plenty of time to catch up. it feels like that is an instrumental moment where all the pieces get put in place for you to switch lawyers and open a line to liz cheney. do you want to do some of that story telling for us? >> yeah, also she literally opens the door to me -- to finish the other question you had, i think it's important that we try to reconstruct our conversations and try to have a welcoming environment for people who might be in donald trump's circles and they kind of have that moment. it might not be the moment where alyssa or me open the physical door to liz cheney and be forthcoming to the committee but in regards to -- >> what does that look like, though? i think as an ex-republican and people ask me should i go work for donald trump and i would never go work for donald trump. you have a different perspective. i get the loyalty piece and i get it feels to want to salvage something, and it feels that's what you're describing about going to mar-a-lago, salvaging the things. and i get that. millions of people still like him, but your conversation with your mom that i started with, you acknowledge you were unreachable. how do you reach someone who is as you were in that moment unreachable? >> right. and i don't have the -- because i have my experience, but i think in telling my story i hope to open people's eeyes and minds, whether they work for donald trump. but on a broader scale the people he claims to represent. it's important -- i wasn't a never trumper. i was a loyal trump staffer, and the term loyalty is one i take very seriously now because i came into public service not to be loyal to donald trump. i went into public service to be loyal to my country. i go into this in the book but there was a point where that loyalty became split. and in facilitating -- >> did you know that at the time or did you realize that when you reflected? >> i had moments throughout my tenure and more so when i was working for the chief of staff where i started to realize that i had a greater sense of loyalty to both mark and the president. but it was something i sort of tried to bury at the time because, you know, you've worked in administrations before, but you're in the heat of these moments and it wasn't until that year and a half after where i really had this moment where i -- it was almost like this profound epiphany where i felt that loyalty and i knew how wrong it was. i felt how wrong it was to pledge my loyalty to this man. i was disgusted with myself that i had devoted myself to him. and i realize how far gone i was, but i was trying to find my way back. so in having these conversations, you know, i think my experience can help shed light on the impact and the effect he has on people. but it's also important as we look towards the next election, we need to find a way to have these conversations with people that open their eyes -- you can still be a republican and you can still believe in some of the policies, but the republican party should not be defined by donald trump and the loyalty. but defined by the republican platform and there's not a clear connection to that today. >> if you go back and try to figure out how it all got so far off the rails, literally the platform becomes loyalty to donald trump. donald trump goes so far as to put all these things into writing, so by 2020 all that was left of the platform was donald trump. do you think that can be undone? >> i would hope it could be, but i think it requires a national effort. it requires a national conversation, and it requires a conversation where i believe we all have to shift our tone. when we have this divisive rhetoric, donald trump is this bad, why is he bad? we need to start educating people. >> why do you think he's bad? >> i'm not trying to say. what i'm talking about on a broad scale, we need to find a way to unite this conversation. and i don't think it's productive to only talk about the negative things he's done. we need to talk about the danger that he poses to our democracy. >> liz cheney who you speak about so powerfully and it's clear you two had an unbelievable not just connection personally but a mission -- is that a model how to talk about him? >> liz cheney is a leader that i think everybody in this country should look to as a source of support and a guiding light, whether you're a democrat or a republican or if you're a nonpartisan, liz has the kurmg of a founding father. she has a spine of steel. i don't like to say she gave things up, and i don't want to put those words in her mouth because liz stood for the principles. liz left with her character and integrity intact. liz helped me get to that point where i could do the same. mine's bruised, but because of liz cheney i was able to come out on the other side and i have this perspective that's grown. and i have surrounded my people that's pointed out the flaws of the donald trump, and i've had this moment where i see the other side now very clearly. but it was a transition point for me, and we need to be able to welcome people into that conversation and not make them feel ostracized. >> liz cheney saved some of her most scathing rhetoric for republicans who she said their dishonor is a stain that will last forever. do you agree with liz cheney about republicans? >> i do. and i look at the current congress and there was opportunities for both leadership in both chambers but also any member of congress. january 6th should not have been a divisive issue. it was very clearly and mainly an attack and assault on our democracy and our constitution led by donald trump. there were many members that were outspoken about that after january 6th. but then they slowly trickled back into his grasp. liz didn't. liz held her ground. there were ten members of congress that voted to impeach him in the house. a lot of those members don't have their seats anymore. that's a disgrace to our system of government. we can't have a productive government, we can't have a productive congress if we're going to have a party of donald trump and the democratic party. now, that's not to say the democratic party doesn't have their flaws either. i think of peter meyer who did vote to impeach donald trump and who was on that side, but the democrats endorsed his republican opponent who was supported by donald trump. that's also not productive because peter meyer was a good productive member of congress who could pass effective and meaningful legislation. we need people like peter meyer in congress and need to elect people responsible with our politics and policies. >> reading your book, it's clear that your happy place is the house republican side, right? that's where you sort of find your groove when you come to washington for your internship first steve scalise and not so much for ted cruz. you join every person i've ever met, male female, republican, democrat, old, young who loves ted cruz. but you go on and your first real accomplishment for the trump administration is whipping votes against this first impeachment. these are your people, and i thought that liz cheney had the most personal sort of disdain for her fellow colleagues. but i read your book and i wondered if yours was greater, that none of them cooperated with the committee. none of them said what they said privately. we know from all the recordings that the book that speaker mccarthy thought the 25th amendment wasn't a fast enough way to rid the country of donald trump. he wanted him to resign and thought impeachment and the 25th amendment would be too slow. how did you feel watching your people on your beat do the wrong thing? >> that's a really interesting question, nicolle. and in this moment i would say as a whole -- now, i can't speak to liz or compare my disdain to her. i'm sure it's in different ways because she was in leadership. >> yeah, kick out. >> but i will say it's up to the leadership of the republican party to set an example for all the other republicans and to set an example for the country. i talk a lot about my friendship and working relationship with kevin mccarthy in the book, somebody who i did have profound respect for as a republican, as a member of congress but also as an individual. >> saves you from matt gaetz. >> but with that said, you know, i -- not only do we need to elect responsible people to our government and to congress but we need to elect people who are going to have responsible leadership. kevin is third in line to the presidency, but he fell back to donald trump. >> he spoke out after january 6thch. >> correct, and he craws back into the snail shell. he makes the pilgrimage and undoes everything. why? >> i can't speak for kevin on that. i know i was disappointed in that. i don't want to say i agree with it because i didn't. i sort of saw maybe a reason why he -- i don't want to completely discredit it without him being here to speak for himself, but he had an opportunity. and in my opinion i don't believe the opportunity's gone. we have a year, a little over a year until the next election. if republicans can find some way now to unite even if it's just a few, a few republicans that have voices that are heard, voices that are heard on a national stage or have name recognition, i'm not trying to say it would be easy, and i'm not trying to sound like i have this -- these dreams that are beyond control because it wouldn't happen overnight, but it could happen. it just would require a little bit of courage from these people, and it's not that hard. when you're on the other side of it and you realize the institution that you serve, you went there to lead. you were elected to lead, and you're elected to uphold our constitution. that should not be something that's lost on our congress right now. >> i have to sneak in a quick break. there's much more to get to. i want to read a lot of what you -- i want to read the whole thing. actually i wish i could sit here and read the whole thing. beautifully, beautifully written what you and mike salter have crafted together is really exquisite. i want to share with our viewers you've written about mark meadows and especially the man loves a burning fire. i went to the white house for six years, and saw two fires. he had one every morning. we'll be right back. had one evg we'll be right back. if you struggle. and struggle. and struggle with cpap. you should check out inspire. no mask. no hose. just sleep. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com about a cashew farmer from mozambique named carlos. carlos lifted himself out of poverty with the help of techoserve. go to technoserve.org and see how you can support struggling farmers like carlos. it's a different way to make a difference. is it possible my network could take my business to the next level? 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(announcer) change your life at golo.com. that's golo.com. i have been incredibly moved by the young women that i have met and have come forward to testify in the january 6th committee. some of these are young women who worked in the trump campaign. some worked in the trump white house, some who worked in offices on capitol hill, all who knew immediately that what happened that day must never happen again. america had the chance to meet one of these young women yesterday, ms. cassidy hutchinson. her superiors, men many years older, a number of them are hiding behind executive privilege, nam nimty, and intimidation. but her bravery and her patriotism yesterday were awesome to behold. >> cassidy hutchenten testified before 13 million americans. quote, her superiors men many years older than her, a number of them are hiding behind executive privilege, being anonymous, and intimidation. and for many of those men they still are. there's still reason to believe one of those men still in hiding from his patriotic responsibilities is mark meadows, cassidy hutchinson's former boss. meadows is now a codefendant alongside former president donald trump and many others. his name appears in the cassidy hutchinson new book more than anyone else's and the allegations of meadows might make your jaw hit the floor. classified documents scattered in random places all the time, meadows burning so many documents in his fireplace devon nunes' of all people was were made about the smoke. meadow meeting with shady men in ski masks on the tarmac where donald trump was holding a rally. that's all thanks to cassidy hutchinson's new book, all of that is now in the public record for us to pour over and ask more questions about. might it force mark meadows to have an epiphany and himself do the right thing, that as far as we know is an open question. we're back with cassidy hutchinson. the meadows arc is fascinating and haunting. i wonder if you can diagnose when he turned on you. >> that would be a question for him to answer. i don't know if i would personally say he turned on me. >> can i rephrase it? when he doesn't come talk to you in the restaurant after you've been his closest and most senior aide at the white house. >> we haven't spoken since january 20th. he hadn't reached out to me but i haven't reached out to him. when i took the job with mark, and i discuss this in the book, but when i took the job with mark, i made it clear to him that i worked for mark meadows as the chief of staff, not mark meadows as mark meadows. neither is a distinct difference there. i worked for the office of the chief of staff meaning that i worked for the institution and the executive branch. mark and i had a great working relationship most of the time. you know, he trusted me, he empowered me, he turned to me for a lot of things. and i was young in that role, but i think mark was also able to see that in certain circumstances especially in washington when some people would allow somebody young and female to not be in positions like that, mark was able to look past that and see that what matters is the confidence that somebody has and the ability to be confident and effective operator. so mark and i had a great working relationship at the white house. i didn't really ever expect us to have a non -- i never expected us to have a working relationship outside of the white house just because ideologically as republicans we fell into different camps. i consider myself a more moderate republican, and he has a reputation of being far more conservative as the former chairman of the freedom caucus. but that didn't really matter in that role. spending so much time with him at the white house, you know, i did feel there was a level and degree of trust and confidence in between us. there were warnings throughout the book i did receive from people i did trust to always keep my guard up with him a little bit. so after january 20th, you know, it wasn't really lost on me that we hadn't talked, but it doesn't really have this profound impact at the time. looking back now sometimes i wonder, but it doesn't do anything productive to wonder. it was a decision i made not to make contact with him for no reason in particular. i felt like i didn't have a purpose, too. but it does beg the question, it's just one i don't have the answer to. >> you've become a counselor to him, though. you give him really good advice. you don't want him to meet with the gentleman named tony whose associates are wearing ski masks. will you tell us what you write about that in the book? >> yes, tony who's a former business associate of hunter biden who is at the nationalerality with the former president of just a few weeks prior to the rally, that we're going to discuss. then a couple weeks after tony is publicly seen with the former president we're on a tarmac in rome, georgia, and a campaign official gets off the plane, comes up to me and says that mark needs to go meet with tony, but they need to do it somewhere private and quietly and out of sight. i push back -- >> you had a sense, though. >> i don't know if it was a female thing or sense of premonition of -- it was something i didn't feel that mark should be involved in. i knew the campaign was speaking with tony and the former president had been seen with tony. so in my mind at the time i was thinking if we'd been seen with him why would this have to be some secretive meeting. but nonetheless they wanted the meeting to occur, so we found a place guarded by secret service vehicles. >> you made a place, right? >> with four secret service vehicles. i asked secret service to make a box with the vehicles and he came with a ski mask. >> why was he wearing a ski mask? >> i don't know. i just remember they're standing in the shadows of the bleachers because we're at a trump rally, and i could hear the president speaking but then i'm also sort of peering around the secret service vehicle and also through the windows, the front windows that aren't tinted and i remember thinking what's going on but also not wanting to know -- i see mark passing something and then the meeting breaks up. we start walking back to where every other staffer is and mark and i engage in this short conversation. and before we get back to everybody he looks back to me and essentially asks me to affirm my loyalty. i think about that moment now and even now i identify that clearly as a turning point for me where i really began to question what was going on. now, i -- at this point my eyes had been open to some more distracting things of the administration. i was still a loyal staffer. i wasn't a never trumper at that point. it could have been innocent, it could have been nothing. i trust my gut on some of these things just like i trust my gut in the last year and a half -- yeah, year and a half of the committee's activity. and i there's just something i felt off and wrong in that exchange. the house republicans have brought an impeachment trial against president biden who won the presidential election in 2020. tony bobalinsky could be called to testify. he spoke in the past about being willing to testify both in court and publicly if there's an impeachment trial ever brought. it just begs the question what is actually going on behind the scenes? and what is the public not aware of? and if it is a level of corruption i believe the public has a right to know. >> do you know what mark meadows said to him? >> i do not know. >> did you ask him? >> i did not ask him. some things are better left unknown. >> the other thing you advise him is not to go to the willard. why not? >> i know loosely what was being discussed with the individuals that were there because they had been at the white house. they had been involved in conversations. i personally did not think that was productive. i did not think we should be pushing anything election related after all the lawsuits were rejected. i think we need to respect our rule of law. i think every american should respect our rule of law and we should concede an election when the courts ruled we had lost the election, that donald trump had lost the election. when they kept pushing it and these individuals and personalities were at the hotel at the willard january 6th, mark asked the chief of staff his job was to protect the president from anybody that was going to be around the president to potentially facilitate bad ideas and put him in a position of hurting the country. i was uncomfortable with mark going, and ultimately he came around to it, too. i was under the impression he did dial into the meetings, but i never heard a read out of those calls and i don't know why he wanted to go to the willard. but just the fact there were those personalities there who i would also like to point out most of them have at this point faced at least one indictment if not multiple. >> why do you think that is? >> well, jack smith has -- both jack smith and fani willis brought indictments against -- >> not against the willard participants -- i guess you had this intuition and good gut, and i think the ski mask is the most amazing thing about the other story. nobody wears a ski mask, nobody comfortable and confident that they belong where they were. but on this you seem to have an intuitive sense of what's right that mark meadows is oblivious to. why do you think that is? >> i don't want to say that he was oblivious to it. you know maybe he wasn't -- i'm just careful to put words in his mouth because he -- i don't know what he's doing with the department of justice. i would hope he'd be compliant about upholding his oath although what's happening in georgia it's a little dubious. i think that he -- he had a responsibility that in that period it appears he didn't carry out -- and i wanted him -- i felt it was my job and my responsibility to always advise mark to do the right thing in that job which was to protect the office of the presidency and to protect the constitution. so in this -- in this era i would hope that he recognizes that and recognizes that it's -- he has a powerful voice in all of this, too. but if he doesn't, you know, it's -- we need to be able to hold people accountable whether it's in the court of law or the court of public opinion. >> a break and i want to get to the fires on the other side though. it's a lot of fires. we'll be right back. ide though it's a lot of fires. we'll be right back. are you tired of clean clothes that just don't smell clean? 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(pensive music) (footsteps crunching) (pensive music) (birds tweeting) (pensive music) (broom sweeping) - [narrator] one in five children worldwide are faced with the reality of living without food. no family dinners, no special treats, no full bellies. all around the world, parents are struggling to feed their children. toddlers are suffering from acute malnutrition, which stunts their growth. kids are forced to drop out of school so they can help support their families. covid, conflict, inflation and climate have ignited the worst famine in our lifetime. and we're fed up. fed up with the fact that hunger robs children of their childhood. fed up with the lack of progress. fed up with the injustice. help us brighten the lives of children all over the world by visiting getfedupnow.org. for as little as $10 a month, you can join save the children as we support children and families in desperate need of our help. now is the time to get fed up and give back. when you join the cause, your $10 monthly donation can help communities in need of life-saving treatments and nutrients, prevent children from dropping out of school. support our work with communities and governments to help children go from short-term surviving to long-term thriving. and now thanks to special government grants, every dollar you give before december 31st can multiply up to 10 times the impact. that means more food, water, medicine and help for kids around the world. you'll also receive a free tote bag to share your support for children in need. childhood without food is unimaginable. get fed up. call us now or visit getfedupnow.org today. we're back with cassidy hutchinson. cassidy, what was mark meadows burning every day? >> yeah, i wish i knew, nicolle. there were several times i walked into mark's office and i would see him putting papers into fireplace. i would like to put on the record, too, and i don't have the exact reason he'd do that. his spokesperson has come out and said perhaps he was putting newspapers into the fireplace. >> can we stop here, though? every west wing office can you explain what a burn bag is? you don't actually have to burn anything because there's a burn bag in every west wing office. >> yes, we did have burn bags. i think it's important to talk about and educate the public on. so in the white house there are devices called burn bags where you're supposed to put any record that there's already a copy of to properly dispose of, that doesn't need to go to the presidential archives. there was an aura of paranoia around burn bags and the deep state in the trump administration where -- >> that's amazing. >> when supposedly the burn bags would be taken away the contents would then be sifted through national security staffers. >> and sent to the press or something. that's amazing. that's an amazing piece of -- so he didn't trust the burn bags so he was ostensibly burning -- >> that's what it appeared to be, nicolle. i think this was emblematic at a bigger issue at hand. and it doesn't have to just do with mark meadows though in this particular instance it does. and i touched on it earlier but these were the people who worked for donald trump in the first term, at the end of the first term. not everyone was bad -- or not everyone had bad intentions or intentions that weren't meant to uphold the constitution and serve the executive branch, but we also did see this cast of characters come in and i'm speaking with my hindsight now, but we did see this cast of characters come in and use their positions to either bloat their own sense of power and egos or also just to advance their own agendas, and that's not what it means to serve the president. and these are the same people, though, that would potentially be working in the second donald trump term. >> did you tell anyone about the burning of documents in mark meadows -- >> and john radcliffe features prominently. >> mark meadows was the most senior person in the executive branch aside from -- >> president trump. >> the president. so any natural conversation i would have had with somebody to raise concerns would not really have -- >> been disloyal. >> correct. just to be honest and frank about it, too, yes, it was something that turned my head and i knew it was wrong. i felt that he shouldn't be doing it, but we also have to understand there was a lot going on in this period, so it was almost like on a daily basis -- >> because of a relative. >> you have to pick and choose this was not important, but it may not have been the most important thing that -- there are many times i'd go into his office with a list of seven or eight things to talk about and i might get one and a half accomplished before the next issue would arise. >> do you know what he was doing with all the classified documents? >> declassifying them. >> did he succeed? >> from what i understand and this is according to public reporting. now, i haven't followed this issue very closely, but i am under the impression that the documents are still not fully declassified. the efforts to declassify the cross fire hurricane documents began before christmas of 2020. and supposedly ended right -- >> 11:45. >> on inauguration day. so this is long winded effort where there are multiple people involved, some from capitol hill that came to the white house to help with these efforts. i am under the impression these documents still have not been declassified because there still are issues with the classification markings. and again i -- i would turn to the department of justice or the national archives for a more official and update -- >> do you know if the recording he did of pelosi was the only recording mark meadows ever did? >> i don't know. >> did you ever record anything? >> no, i did not. >> did other people record stuff? >> not that i was aware of. not that i was aware of. >> it's a weird scene, right? you're in the car -- >> it's possible other people could have important things. not that i was aware of or that would have sparked a concern to me. even in that moment, people record conversations. there's the raffensperger call recorded and that was released to the public. the call -- i don't know the exact date, but there was a call with the house republican conference january 6th and reporting that conversation -- to me it felt like a breach of trust. this was a point where we were trying to work very closely with speaker pelosi and her staff to pass a covid spending bill, and i was working and had worked for my tenure at the white house to build a good relationship with her staff. so for me in that moment it felt like a breach of trust with me and mark's relationship but also a breach of trust in what we were trying to do because i wasn't sure what he wanted today do with that recording. but in that moment it was more something that perked my ears up and made me higher my guard with him a little bit. but, again, it's not inherently -- it's not inherently, it's not something he should not have been doing. it's just something that sort of sheds light on the overall paranoia of the administration. >> i worked there for five years and never knew anyone to be afraid of this, but it's an incredible insight. i want to ask you about the threats that you face because tragically you're not the only one. a woman in texas was arrested for threatening to kill judge chutkan who has the federal election interference case. pelosi's husband was attacked by someone believed to believe in conspiracy theories. you write about your pain and admiration in people who used to work at the u.s. capitol. when the threats came down against you and you think about the possibility of the second trump presidency, what do you think? what do you feel? what do you want people to know about how dangerous he is? >> donald trump for the last seven years -- seven plus years has shown us exactly who he is time and time again. i am guilty of being complicit and not understanding that his words have an impact and have a very strong impact on his base. putting the threats to me on my -- i came forward to the committee to be forthcoming, to be truthful, to provide what i knew. i knew what i was getting myself into by doing that, and i had made peace with that. you know, i had been on the inside. i knew the vitriolic rhetoric he's capable of doing. i knew what could happen and i would become a target. but that's something i made peace with because this is moment that's bigger than us. with that being said, though, with the platform we have, it's important to communicate to people that his words matter. his words have an impact. i think of rusty bowers who did the right thing in his job in arizona during the election fraud that donald trump is waging against him, and donald trump turned his supporters against rusty bowers. he couldn't leave his house. that is an egregious, egregious act an honorable public servant. rusta bowers isn't the only public person. we saw the tweet donald trump sent out this past weekend at general mark milley. we need to believe him. we need to believe he is who he is. we need to believe that and amplify that. this rhetoric is not only not normal but can't be take that o the republican base? >> i think that it's variety toll take that message to the republican base. >> and if you had to look at that debate stage tonight, do you have a favorite? >> i think about the debate several weeks ago when brett baer asked a pointed question, and it was something to the effect of, if donald trump is tried and convicted, would you still support him if he is the party's nominee, and everybody's hands on that stage were raised except two individuals, chris christie and asa hutchinson. hutchinson is not going to be on the stage tonight. to me, chris christie is the only person qualified to serve as republican nominee for the republican nomination, because if you're willing to support somebody who has assaulted the constitution and who would be a convicted felon for assaulting the constitution, that's not only an anti-republican principle, that's an anti-democratic principle. that is the most un-american thing that any candidate could do. that itself, to me, is an assault on our democracy. but with that said, too, nicolle, donald trump's poll numbers today as report ready higher than they were several weeks ago on that first debate. i don't know if he will be the nominee next year, but i think we all need to do everything we can to make sure that he isn't. because if chris christie is our only hope, he's the only person we can trust to uphold our constitution and it's him versus donald trump, i would hope it would be chris christie on that ticket, but right now it doesn't look like that's going to be the case. >> liz cheney really walked the walk in the midterms and endorsed democratic candidates. would you do the same in the 2024 presidential contest? >> in the presidential contest? >> mm-hmm. >> right now i'm not going to sit here and hypothesize about a scenario where donald trump would be the republican nominee. i hope we could come back and put somebody on the ticket that is not donald trump and that is -- >> christie. >> and that is not threatening an assault on our democracy. i haven't made my mind up about who i would support if donald trump is the nominee, but i'm not closing any doors to supporting a democrat or republican or writing somebody in. or an independent or writing somebody in. >> are you scared for the country? and yourself? >> i'm not scared for myself, because i'm not going to let the people that have been indicted, the people that have avoided subpoenas, the people that have avoided telling the truth and the people that afternooify poisonous conspiracy theories try to silence me. they can do what they want and they're going to do what they want and i don't want to give their platform any more oxygen than the media already gets it. i'm scared for our country if donald trump is elected president again, not only because donald trump could be occupying the oval office but because the people that would surround him in, my opinion at this time in time, the months of november 2020 through january 2021, we are looking down at having four years of that. that's what's scary to me, because we would not have guardrails in place at that point. i don't think that we would have decent people that would want to work for him, for a variety of reasons. this period is very telling that he demands this unilateral loyalty from his staff members but doesn't give it in return. he expects people to be loyal to his agenda, not the country. you don't attract honorable public servants with those demands. also on top of potentially having to accrue mass amounts of legal fees. >> right, as price of admission. it's really remarkable. it's a remarkable book. it's really a treat to get to talk to you, and i haven't done this yet, but thank you. thank you for speaking out. thank you for using your platform. i'm obsessed with how people try to use their platform. and in my view, you've made all the right choices about yours. thank you for writing the book, thank you for testifying and thank you for spending the hour with us. >> thank you, nicolle. >> thank you. the book is "enough." it's really remarkable. quick break for us. we'll be right back. r us we'll be right back. thursday night football on prime. it's on. welcome to thursday night football. thursday night football is on! it's detroit wide open, touchdown! up against green bay, deep downfield! as the lions take on the packers. into the end zone! stream thursday night football. only on prime. as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty. all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly support will make you part of the movement to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards. but the aclu can't do this important work without the support of people like you. you can help ensure liberty and justice for all and make sure that every vote is counted. so please call the aclu now or go to my aclu.org and join us. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and much more. to show you're a part of the movement to protect the rights guaranteed to all of us by the us constitution. we protect everyone's rights, the freedom of religion, the freedom of expression, racial justice, lgbtq rights, the rights of the disabled. we are here for everyone. it is more important than ever to take a stand. so please join us today. because we the people means all the people, including you. so call now or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty. some breaking news to tell you about. judge tanya chutkan who's providing over the election interference case against donald trump brought by special counsel jack smith just denied a request by the ex president to recuse herself from the case. that request was always seen as a legal hail mary move on the part of donald trump. in her rules chutkan says recusal was, quote, not warranted and quote, at the outset it bear noting that the court has never taken the position the defense ascribes to it, that former president trump should be prosecuted and imprisoned. quick break for us. we'll be right back. quick break for us we'll be right back. cold water, on those stains? ♪♪ cold water can't clean tough stains? i'd say that myth is busted. turn to cold, with tide. thank you so much for let ing us into your homes. appreciate the tips for my nagging cough. >> hang in there. hot lemon and water is what my dad says. >> got that, and elder berry apparently. >> welco

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