thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. for most of his life donald trump has sold o himself as a successful businessman. he tid it first as a minor new york celebrity and then as a new york tv host and then as probably as a candidate as a president of the united states. trump's mainni asset, his selli point, if, you will, the reaso we were all supposed to take him seriously and he was a successful leadery of the real estate sfempire that bears his name. but today a judge in new york found that trump's business empire has been built in part on-rampant fraud. and the judge ordered the disillusion of trump's businesses in the state of new york. here's what she wrote. ordered that any certificates filed by any of the entity defendsants or by any other entity controlled or beneficially owned by donald j. trump, donald trump jr., eric trump, allen weisselberg, or trump controller jeffrey meycconnie are canceled. to put that in laymans terms for now the trump organization effectively has an out of order sign hanging on it at least in terms of its businesses in new york state, which again in this moment, at this hour is a fairly staggering development for the man whose entire reputation is built on histi alleged business acumen. it's also not all that this judge has decided. because of this order several of the crown jewels in trump's real estate empire, the properties upon which he built his brand, those propertieshi are now in limbo. the precise impact of today's ruling has yet to be seen, but trump could lose control of properties including trump park avenue, which is his lux clear sky creper in manhattan's lennox neighborhood, control of wall street, the historic tower trump owns. he could lose control of his seven springs golf club in bedford, new york, even his apartment in trump tower, the guilded bunker in which he'd sought refuge in new york city, trump could lose control of that. maybe even the golden toilet, too. so today's ruling was not good for mr. trumpod and the defense team. the judge here, judge arthur engoron made clear what he thought of the defense also part of his ruling. the judge accused the defense ou living in fantasy world, not the real world. accused the defense obstreperous conduct and contentious and blatant disregard of controlling authority and law of the case. he admonished trump's legal tea in any uncertain terms and rote sophisticated counsel should have known better. so, again, not a great day for the d trump defense. trump's teame announced tonigh they plan to appeal this ruling, but for now all this looks like pretty good news for new york attorney general letitia james. the case against the trump organization expected to officially go toni trial on monday, which is six days from today. and judge engoron, the same judge that just accused trump's team of living in a fantasy world, he will be the presiding judge in thatth case. oute of that trial we're likel totr find out the fate of trump empire, whether he'll lose control of his numerous properties and whether he and his sons will ever be allowed to do business in new york state again. joining me now are laura jarrett, senior correspondent for nbcja news, and susanne, craig, one of the lead reporters into the investigation of trump's finances. help me understand. ruling and i've gotten slightly better at understanding. this one was tough for me, i'm not going to lie. laura, i understood this to be a fairly devastating rebuke for trump's defense. >> i think the plain language, the scathing language, in particular the judge seems angry ht his words weren't taken seriously. over and over again essentially tell them i warned you about these arguments last time and yet you continued to make them. they're borderline frivolous, so much so he's ordered sanctions against the lawyers. this not something you see hi often, but the judge is so angry about what he calls glaring s misrepresentations. that's an embarrassing thing to receive as an attorney. >> and fines of $7,500 each. >> i think the question mark is what the is practical emplication of having a business canceled. for all intents and purposes the judge that is going to be trying this case clearly has strong feelings about defendants and their gsarguments, which does n bode well of what is posed to go to trial on monday, what's left of this case. >> ifof i'm trump's defense i'm not excited about monday. >> thist is not a jury trial, the way. it's from the bench. the judge -- >> he's the decider. >> monday morning he's there to decide the rest. >> how are you -- i mean, there are a lot of questions. the wording there in our script as i read that is very careful. it's for now it's kind of an out of order sign hanging over -- >> there'sin going to be immediately an appeal. that's the first one, of course, he's going to appeal it. there's going tope be a receive put in. >> a receiver to control. >> right. and it's going to be in the interest of in the short-term for thosef properties to do we. we're not going to all of a sudden see an immediate sale or anything like that, and i think if there is a sale, it's going to be a very controlled sale because potentially the proceeds of the sale, say the commercial area of trump tower seven springs or the estate he owns could go to whatever fine amount matlyev happens at the end of t court case. >> discouragement, i got caught up in that, but effectively litigious james isat calling fo $250 million. there's a question how liquid trump is at this stage, and whether to your point he may teed to sell-off some of these properties, is that right? >> i think at the end of it if we keep rolling and there's appeals, we could very well see thel sales that could potentiay go to pay for the fine. and in the interim -- >> it's a huge fine for him. it's a massive fine. it's not tax-deductible. >> you can't write it down. >> and w we're not heading towas a moment now where, oh, that fine won't be 250, it might be 100. this is devastating. he was found liable on the fraud stuff. there's oneud more legal maneuv coming this week but we've been expected to go ahead monday, and there's going to be other things that will be adjudicated, but the main one was that fraud charge, and that's done. >> toch the question of what practically happens toon the businesses, laura, it seems like a real -- a very real possibility that the trumps will not be allowed to do business in the state of new york ever again. how are you reading the sort of tea leaves in this as it pertains to that ultimate question? >> well, i think that was part of why this was always sort of the wildwa card case for the business and family. there'sbu been so much focus on the four criminal indictments and for good reason. this is a civil case. it's not about jail time, but it is about business, the reputation, the family's stake and interest in something that clearly was important to them. and, look, if you're a lender reading u'this, is this a busins that you want to engage with anymore? and perhaps they already had reputational risk. their point all along is, look, you should haveg done yo own due diligence. you shouldn't have rely on our statements of financial condition. you should have dug in on yourself. truly if you're a lender is this a business you want to y engage with? >> all along this is the juicy part. it truly is. this is the thing upon some of trump's defense rests here, which is his statements of financial condition, they're not independently audited, they're meaningless. and thete judge today ripped th argument daapart. i think he says defendant's reliance on these worthless disclaimers is in and of itselfn worthless. >> it is incredible because the hearing fore what came today w on amfriday, and i was there fo it. t just to hear trump's lawyers at the beginning actually both sides sort of felt like they started with the phrase we feel like we walked through the looking glass, like it was really a -- like a house of mirrors, the way they were just going through all theseay reaso why these financial statements were worthless, they were caveats on them. well, there's just a lot of l variation, well, the banks do their own due diligence themselves. so they submitted all these documents knowing these weren't just a little bit off. at one point the judge -- and maybe we should have all seen thisve coming today. i don't even want to paraphrase it, it was p so good. he was angry he started pounding on his desk and looking at the trump lawyers and saying you can't make false statements and use them in the business. he was just furious. >> there was no gray area for him. >> no, he was really angry. they had all these excuses for why these financial statements were essentially fiworthless.al i think the main one being the banks do their own due diligence, but you still submitted them as a document to a financial institution and othera cases, insurance companies. there are rules about that, and that's what the judge was saying. he was furious. >> that portends very poorly for what else needs to be resolved in this trial on monday, right, laura? >> and it's part of why again the fact it's a civil case makes a difference here. the bar is lower. the judge makes it clear intent isle not required, materiality meaning it actually mattered to the partner. so the question is, well, if the lenders and the banks weren't upset, they didn't sue, didn't have anydi damage, the judge sa none of that actually matters for purposes of just the plain, vanilla fraud case, you don't need any of that. he he may need it for some of the other claims going to trial onms monday. but as for just that, all you needed were there were false representations and that's it. >> it's a great point because in this case you think of a normal trial because the victims, the loans are formed -- >> that was the case trump was making. >> it doesn't matter. >> and shutdown by the judge. i would ask, laura, there are outstanding appellateth issues here, right? talk a little bit about the sort of parallel avenue trump is pursuing to get out of this? >> sure, o and that's their rig, and they can try to t appeal th one. and who's to say what a panel will w do. they'vel tried another avenue go after the judge. >> personally. >> and they're suing. we'll see how that turns out. >> doesn't look like it's working so't well as a strategy thus far. >> you can correct me if i'm wrong, but it seems this is all speed on monday. >> he was suing the judge, and hesu did this before friday's hearings on this. so i don't know if he anticipated this, he k anticipad something wasn't going to go his way. in appellate court and he's asking for -- one was simply more time, the time was limited in the appellate court in terms of what cases could be looked at and the time frame and what fell where. i don't see the appellate courtth -- i keep making predictions. >> we lovema it. >> unless you get a stay, this is going forward. >> suing the judge personally in light of the ruling just handed out just seems like i don't know legally but politically speaking in termsle of the clash of personalities, not a wise move given the judge is going to be ruling on monday. >> i think he had really not much to losenk in terms of -- i don't think it would have made much ofth a difference. like i think he knew something was coming and he wants the appellate court to rule on whether the judge should beto removed. >> i will ask you because you followed this case so exhaustively for years now, is this -- could this be the sort of finale for the trump organization that we're looking at right here? i just said could, i didn't say will. given the gravity what's at stake here. >> you know when you come past any buildings that has trump's name on it, he does have significant assets here, but a lot of his business is conducted outside of the state. his businesses include largely golf courses elsewhere in the country and so he still has assets he can sell if there's a fine that comes from this. he's also i think smartly from his point of view switched his lending, so his lenders were anticipating this and his loans had been moved to institutions. so i don't know. i think we're alsons -- and thi is again something with donald trump. we're a long way from the end. i'm going to be sitting in front of you talking about this and there's going to be appeals. there's going to be a lot. and they're going to be stewards of these properties may one day be sold, but i think we're a long waynk from that. this is big headline today. >> perhaps the end of one chapter in a longer saga, and i thank you for, being narratorsn all this,r my friends. great to see you guys. thank you for your wisdom and thoughts. much more still ahead this evening including the ex-president's latest legal brief claiming he has not intimidated anyone as he threatens prosecutors and flirts with buying a gun. that isuy still ahead. but first -- >> why won't you resign, sir? >> because i'm innocent. >> why were there gold bars there? >> whyld were there gold bars there? at least 24 senators are now calling from for their colleague to resign. mitual goldberg is up next. cole to resign. mitual goldberg is up next has no idea she's sitting on a goldmine. well she doesn't know that if she owns a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more she can sell all or part of it to coventry for cash. even a term policy. even a term policy? even a term policy! find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com. would you run for re-election sir? >> as i said i'm here to do the work for the people of new jersey. >> why won't you resign, sir? >> because i'm innocent. >> why were there gold bars there? >> democratic senator bob menendez tried to get the elevator doors closed as quickly as possible today, telling reporters he'll not be resigning even though he faces federal bribery charges including allegations he use his position as the chairman of the senate foreign relations committee to aid the government of egypt. in return the indictment alleges senator menendez received gifts including cash and gold bars, as in bars of gold. as of today at least 24 democratic senators have called for menendez to step down including cory booker, the junior senator from new jersey who has long been a close friend of menendez and even appeared as a character witness for him in 2017 when senator menendez first faced unrelated corruption charges. menendez and his codefendants including his wife are scheduled to make an appearance in court tomorrow for their arraignment. joining me now is "the new york times" columnist and msnbc contributor michelle goldberg. always good to see you. i know you have a new piece in "the times" today calling on senate leadership to force menendez to step down. i wonder what you think the calculation is for senator chuck schumer, the majority leader in the senate and why he has not called and insurered the ouster. >> i'm not sure. >> i've called on him to demand menendez to resign. i'm not sure he can force menendez to resign, which may be part of his calculation. if he's trying to ease him out behind the scenes, maybe that's understandable. i'm heartened three or four senators who had called under menendez to resign, it's now close to have the caucus, but it really should be all of the caucus. this is such a black and white issue. and, yes, you have the right to a fair trial but do not have the right to a seat in the united states senate when you cannot answer for such deeply incriminating evidence against you. and the answer he's given at that really defined press conference are just so laughable. >> yeah, and i want to talk about those answers in a second because those have their long tail in a way politically speaking. the point you're making in public trust is not a given, and once you lose it, you don't get to be a u.s. senator. at the same time there's a clear political dimension to all of this as well. and i know on one hand the calls on the part of democrats though not all of them to get menendez to leave and in fact the federal investigation itself reveal the republican assertions that the doj is somehow rigged against republicans to be -- it reveals that to be patently false, right? here's a federal investigation of a sitting u.s. democratic senator. that is a good thing i think for democrats. on the other hand, the fact he's still in the senate undermines the sort of larger democratic ire and anger directed at former president trump for his misdeeds shall we say at this point. and i wonder which you think is the more potent narrative at this moment. the rigging of one institution or the idea that trump and the focus must be on trump at all times? >> well, i think the way to keep the focus on trump is for the democratic party to be united in repudiating menendez, because that i think is the real difference between the parties. i do think there's more corruption on the part of the republican party, but the republican party doesn't have a monopoly on corruption. the real difference is at least should be how the two parties handle corruption. so presumably if say a democratic presidential candidate was found guilty of fraud and his his companies threatened bedisallusion, that would you would think count against him in a democratic primary. or you would think george santos would not be allowed to stay on the democratic side. and there's also another thing happening that's very interesting which on the one hand you have more and more democrats although not as many as i think we should see calling for menendez to resign. at the same time you see republicans calling on him not to resign. there's two pieces there. on the one hand they think menendez is now a burden to the democrats and a political liability if he stayed in the senate, but it also seems the republican party is increasingly committed to the principle a mere indictment on serious crimes should not preclude you serving in the united states of america. >> strange bedfellows, right? >> now the republicans are coming to bob menendez's aid. i do have to ask you, though, because you highlight in your piece, the reasons menendez gives for his targeting, and i'll read an excerpt from your story. menendez insisted he's staying in the senate and offered a preposterous excuse for the hundreds of thousands of dollars the fbi found at his house. he said he kept it for emergencies. he also claimed today be the victim of racist persecution by those who simply cannot accept a first generation latino american from humble beginnings could rise to become a u.s. senator. so audaciously cynical it belongs in a caustic tv farce. i mean it is audaciously cynical, and it also i think inflicts real harm on public figures who are the victim of racist targeting, right? it renders in some ways meaningless. >> you make a mockery of it. it absolutely makes a mockery of it, because of course racist targeting is real, the idea racist targeting is the reason bob menendez has been indicted again and the reason he's been found by the fbi to have his gold bars and hundreds of thousands of dollars of cash, you know, stashed in his house, the idea he can now kind of plead identity politics, yeah, it's so deeply cynical, and i think again shows that he really has nothing. right, if he had not even an explanation but the ghost of a rationale, we would have heard it by now. >> i'll just say as someone's family who fled the country and felt targeted, there were no gold bars anywhere in my family's house as far as i knew. i'm not a u.s. senator, though. mitual goldberg, thank you for making the time. >> still ahead donald trump's lawyers is arguing in court he's never intimidated anyone. the former president's record, however, suggests otherwise. but first union joe walked the picket line today. the state senator 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(bright music) is it possible my network could take my business to the next level? it is with comcast business. powering all your devices with gig-speed wifi. and you get fast downloads and uploads. pick it up! pick it up! oh we got this! because it's powered by the next generation 10g network. more speed for your business? it's not just possible. it's happening. get started for $59.99 a month for 12 months. plus, ask how to get an $800 prepaid card with a qualifying internet bundle. comcast business, powering possibilities. goli, taste your goals. president biden made history in michigan today when he became the first sitting president in modern history to walk a picket line. biden addressed members of the united auto workers who were striking against the big three auto makers outside a general motors plant near detroit. >> you saved the auto industry and gave up a lot. now they're doing incredibly well, and guess what? you should be doing incredibly well, too. >> president biden's decision here to join the auto workers at a picket line could have far reaching consequences not only for the labor movement in this country but for 2024 presidential politics as well. michigan is an important swing state. by way of evidence donald trump will be in michigan tomorrow at an event billed as an address to auto workers instead of attending the second republican presidential primary debate. senator, it's so great to have you here tonight. i'd love to get your thoughts on the sort of political peril this moment represents for both democrats and republicans. i spoke with the white house press secretary karine jean pierre and walked her if she would walk the picket line. i wonder if you've been advising the white house and what you think about how he's handling this moment. >> well, alex, first of all, it's really great to be with you. i love your show, and i have to say that president biden was in his element today. anytime, he's with working men and women, he deeply connects with people, and i've been one of the folks that has urged him to come assuming this is something the uaw wants, and the uaw president has indicated the president had a standing invitation. so i think it was great that he was there. we know it's historrecollect, but what i think is also historic is we've got a manufacturing renaissance going on in this country right now, over 800 new manufacturing jobs. making sure these are good paying jobs and people are getting their fair share. i want the whole auto industry to do well, but they can't do well unless the workers are doing well. donald trump he comes in and says he wants to talk to the workers. he goes to the non-union facilities, and now it looks like he's being backed by all the folks who are anti-labor, all the groups anti-labor, anti-unions right now, and he's going to speak. and so i mean bring it on. this is a guy who said that we should let the autos go bankrupt. i was deeply involved in leading that auto rescue. he said let them go bankrupt, and later on he actually said instead of going to mexico, why don't the companies move from michigan with union labor and go to the south with nonunion labor, and then they could cut their costs. we've got so many things he said over the year and again actions he took that showed he was anti-labor, and he's the only president in our lifetime that left as president with fewer jobs in our country than when he started. and right now in addition to manufacturing, we've got 13.5 million new jobs and counting in our country. >> i've got to follow up on that because trump's record on union labor is abysmal, the fact he's going to a non-union plant tomorrow tells you the story of all of it, right? he appoints eugene scalia as labor secretary, makes it harder for union leaders to organize, and yet, senator, he still has support from the rank and file. shawn fain estimates i think a third of the rank and file may be supporting trump in 2024, and the fact is in 2020 exit polls show 26% of uaw households voted for biden, but 40% backed trump. to me that says it's not actually about policy but about some sort of sociocultural feeling they get from each candidate. and i'd love to know from your perspective why trump has this sticking power with -- with, you know, blue collar white voters, especially men, especially noneducated men. >> alex, i would have to say despite these early polls all over the place right now, and i think we have to line them up and throw them away what i see is a lessening, but it's true. in michigan any labor union we're going to have people that are democrats, people republicans, more democrats than republicans. but when you talk about one-third of the uaw supporting trump, that means two-thirds are supporting joe biden. that's about the ratio that we see all the time. and michigan, frankly, is a purple state. we've been so excited and done so much organizing in recent years that we have beat the odds in 2020 with president biden getting more votes in a presidential year than any other time. '22 we beat the odds on more votes, more people coming out to vote that at any time before in a nonpresidential year, but i can assure you we have to work hard all the time, and we've got to tell the story, and it is very difficult. it seems like it's always easy to get attention for bad news, and we got a lot of good news to tell, and we just have to keep telling it. rebuilding america, bringing jobs home, lifting people up. you know, donald trump actually cut the overtime pay rules, cut overtime pay when he was in. president biden in august just raised over time pay. we can go point by point and it's really our job, everybody's job to tell the story. no more top down, no more trickle down. it's right aiming at the middle class, roll in the middle class, bringing down costs, taking down the trump companies, taking down big oil. i can go on -- i'm sure i could go on and on but because there is so much to tell, and i think we need to tell it. >> please come back on the show. for the things that have been done by the democratic president, i think starting on the picket line is a good place to get started. thank you so much for your time tonight. still ahead this evening the symbolism behind trump's choice of campaign stop amid the threat of violence amid his detractor. that is next. violence amid hisr that is next we planned well for retirement, but i wish we had more cash. you think those two have any idea? that they can sell their life insurance policy for cash? so they're basically sitting on a goldmine? i don't think they have a clue. that's crazy! well, not everyone knows coventry's helped thousands of people sell their policies for cash. even term policies. i can't believe they're just sitting up there! sitting on all this cash. if you own a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more, you can sell all or part of it to coventry. even a term policy. for cash, or a combination of cash and coverage, with no future premiums. someone needs to tell them, that they're sitting on a goldmine, and you have no idea! hey, guys! you're sitting on a goldmine! come on, guys! do you hear that? i don't hear anything anymore. find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com. there is a big bucks gun and pawn. there is holy city firearms or probably the best name of the bunch, there is ammo dump. there are a lot of options when it comes to gun shops in and around summerville, south carolina. so why did former president trump choose this one? yesterday before speaking at a campaign rally in south carolina, trump made a pit stop for a tour and a photo-op at a gun shop called the palmetto state armory. this is a photo of one of the guns a white gunman used a month ago today in jacksonville, florida, to kill three black people in a dollar general in a predominantly black neighborhood. the gunman who fatally shot himself after that attack, he left behind a racist manifesto. as the jacksonville sheriff said, this shooting was racially motivated, and he hated black people. this is closer picture of the gun that shooter used a month ago today. and above the hand painted swastika, you can see the logo. palmetto state armory. it was headline news at least one of the vuter's guns came from the palmetto state armory. to be clear palmetto state armory is a south carolina chain, and there are lots of locations, but also there are lots of gun stores to choose from in that town minutes away from one another, and so it feels like a choice that exactly a month later donald trump chose this particular shop for his photo-op. that is not the only thing this particular gun shop is known for. in 2009 south carolina republican joe wilson shouted you lie at president obama during a congressional address, and that was celebrated on the right. and palmetto state armory had its first big national news moment by commemorating wilson's outburst on a custom engraved ar-15 accessory. more recently palmetto state armory has made news for marketing its product toward the anti-government group, the bug aloo boys. it's a predominantly right-wing accelerationest movement whose members say they want a violent second civil war against the federal government. you might know them from their singture combination of hawaiian shirts and military gear. it is not on sale anymore, but in 2020 the palmetto state armory sold this gun in a hawaiian shirt print called the big igloo aloha, which sounds a lot like boogaloo. palmetto state armory didn't respond to requests for comments by the trace. but given all of that, it feels very pointed that former president trump picked this particular gun shop just yesterday. it may be even feels like trump was sending a message, and it is not the first time. last night trump's lawyers filed their opposition to special counsel jack smith's request for a gag order in a federal election interference case. smith had asked the judge to restrict trump's speech outside of court to prevent trump from intimidating witnesses or influencing potential jurors. in response trump's lawyers argued president trump has not intimidated anyone. he essentially said because jack smith's team didn't directly tie trump to any specific act of intimidation, he can't be penalized for it, but that is exactly how trump operators. as his former lawyer and fixer put it years ago, trump speaks in code. trump didn't have to tell the proud boys to come to the capitol, he just told them to stand back and standby and that january 6th would be wild. trump didn't have to tell his followers to break into the capitol january 6th and, he just told them to march, and he called the vice president a cowered and sat silently while his supporters chanted that they wanted to hang mike pence. trump tas utly encouraged violence against his own vice president, and mike pence is far from an outlier here. since the 2020 election more than a dozen people have been charged with threatening election workers because of trump's big lie. individual election workers trump singled out out like ruby freeman and shaye moss faced threats of violence for just doing their jobs. michigan secretary of state jocelyn benson had armed protesters show up at her home because of trump's lies about the election. after trump demonized the fbi after searching mar-a-lago a supporter of trump's tried to attack the fbi cincinnati field office with a nail gun. even the national archives has been flooded with threats because trump demonized the institution last year, and the list goes on. president trump's followers have shown repeatedly that trump can send even subtle messages, and they the call to violence loud and clear. former decalb district attorney gwen keys talked about what the judge next can do about all this and what it's like to be a public figure on the receiving end of this sort of vitriol. f v. 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(announcer) change your life at golo.com. that's golo.com. when donald trump was criminally indicted the first time, he started calling that prosecutor and other black prosecutors investigating him racist. days before fulton county d.a. fani willis indicted trump and 18 others, trump accused her of having an affair with a gang member. hours after she filed that rico indictment, trump used the word "rigor" to complain about the charges. those racially charged attacks do not go unnoticed by trump supporters. new york officer whose charged trump has received death threats. d.a. willis has shared the racist, sexist threats she received. the judge overseeing trump's federal case has faced racial slurs and death threats as well. in the meantime trump has reacted by all of this by saying if you go after me, i'm coming after you. and yet in a filing late last night, trump's defense team in his federal election interference case argued that the judge should not impose a gag order on trump because president trump has not intimidated anyone. joining me now is gwen keys, former district attorney for decalb county in georgia. there's so many reasons i want to talk to you about this, but from a legal perspective is the argument the defense is putting forward here, donald trump did not intimidate anyone, does that hold water? it is in their mind because there is no direct example it's a fantasy. >> well, i think the judge here is going to look at the context. again, these are not statements that are in a vacuum. we have the history of january 6th. the judge sees what's been done there, and again even though she has had threats against her, i think she is going to be able to look at the facts and weed through all of the garbage and come up with a decision going to be able to protect not just the individuals in the court system but the integrity of the court system. let's remember that is critical part of our democracy, and so when you attack prosecutors or suggest their decisions are made for things other than facts and the law, that really begins to undermine some of the basic principles of this country. >> i just wonder what punitive measures can be put in place because he is someone who acts often in open defiance of the law and institutions, and one of most effective measures she has suggested is to move up the trial date, but that seems -- a march trial date how much more can you move it up? and if you don't actually punish trump for the bad behavior, the intimidating behavior, then does that not make a mockery of the institution as well? >> correct. i think she may actually follow through on her threat to move things up. again, this is a matter of shortening the window within which these kinds of statements can be made. and when you do that, you ultimately protect people and have the case move faster. we'll actually see whether that's what she does, but the other things that would apply with any other defendant is revoking the bond and having someone stay in custody. i realize that's a bit of a challenge when you have a former president, but that's how any other defendant would be handled. >> there's another aspect to this aside from the legal which is the social emotional component to this. there are the attacks trump makes with prosecutors and detractors writ large, but then there are very specific brand of attack and focused attack on women of color especially women of color who are prosecutors whether it is litigious james who he's attacking on social media this evening, whether fani willis, whether judge chutkan, there's a specific brand of trump vitriol dedicated to women of color often involved in law and holding him accountable. what do you make of that, and what does that portend for women of color who are in law, who are watching this unfold? >> well, it's a sad state of affairs, right, but many of us who have been prosecutors or are prosecutors sadly realize that, unfortunately, is part of the job. now we work even more diligently to protect ourselves, to protect our families, but we shouldn't have to do that, when we have put ourselves forward to take an oath and serve our public in a way that maintains, again, a critical pillar of our democracy, so it's a sad state that folks who are committed to service are being treated this way, but, again, i have it on good authority many of them are receiving protection from both the state and law enforcement as well as federal law enforcement. >> i think it's really telling, too, that faced with this legal peril he's resorting to not subtle racial -- the suggestion of racism and fomenting sort of racial tension if not outright racial attacks on people of color. it is very -- it is very enlightening to me that that is the recourse that donald trump has chosen in this moment. when you -- i know you worked with fani willis and the peril she faces, do you think this is going to make -- is there any cause for her to second guess the choices she's made as we go forward with all this? >> absolutely not. i've always said fani willis, d.a. fani willis has been called for a time such as this. she's a very tough prosecutor. she knows the law, she follows it, and she applies facts she's been given to investigations to that law. if she has the facts to go forward, she's going to move forward, and no one is going to be able to intimidate her from doing so. i will say the flip side of this is her ability to weather this and all of these prosecutors ability to hold a former president accountable is actually a reason to encourage other young people whether they were women of color or not to get involved in this career given the stakes and the magnitude of the challenge. if victorious, it's deeply meaningful. >> actually, that's one of the things that's personally very satisfying for me. there was a time when i was the only african american woman d.a. in georgia, and now there are eight. so you can see how things can progress as many others step up and recognize their opportunity to serve. >> wow, we are so thrilled to have your wisdom and thoughts. and i will say generally positive mental attitude towards all this. gwen keyes, it's great to see you. thank you for visiting us all in new york city. that is our show for this evening. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. it's hard to see how this doesn't spell the end of donald trump the businessman in new york. >> that's former assistant u.s. attorney for the district of columbia, and he's now