zahra. it was no reason for anyone to notice that 25-year-old trying on that blazer. . no one knew she was out of work, behind on rent had lost wi-fi service at her apartment. because she couldn't afford it anymore. the name on the overburdened credit card she used to pay for the blazer meant nothing to anyone in that store. it'll be the last time in her life that she could go shopping anywhere in america and not be recognized. in some places, cheered, some places attacked, or threatened. a week later, she combined the white blazer with rhinestone earrings from kohl's and a necklace she received 12 years earlier on her 13th birthday. and she changed the course of history. >> today's witness, miss cassidy hutchinson, is another republican and another former member of president trump's white house staff. in her role, working for the white house chief of staff, miss hutchinson handled the vast number of sensitive issues. she worked in the west wing, several steps down the hall from the oval office. miss hutchinson spoke daily with members of congress, with high-ranking officials in the administration, with senior white house staff, including mr. meadows. with white house counsel, lawyers, and with mr. tony ornato. who served as the white house deputy chief of staff. she also worked on a daily basis with members of the secret service, who were posted in the white house. in short, miss hutchinson was in a position to know a great deal about the happenings in the trump white house. miss hutchinson's already sat for four videotaped video it interviews with committee investigators, we thank you very much for her cooperation and for her courage. >> i saw mr. cipollone read before i walked out that morning. mr. cipollone said something to the effect of, please make sure we don't go up to the capitol, cassidy. keep in touch with me. we're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen. >> do remember which crimes mr. cipollone was concerned with? >> in the days leading up to the sixth, we had conversations about potentially obstructing justice or defrauding the electoral count. >> now, thanks in part, to her testimony, her boss, white house chief of staff mark meadows, and his boss donald trump, have been charged with obstructing justice and defrauding the united states of america. before cassidy hutchinson testified to the january 6th committee, on live television, there was no special prosecutor investigating donald trump for anything, including his actions leading up to and on january 6th. the justice department investigation of donald trump, which is now headed by special prosecutor jack smith, was following the lead of the january 6th committee. whose star witness was cassidy hutchinson. cassidy hutchinson was 24 years old, working in the power corridor of the west wing of the white house, when the crimes mark meadows and donald trump were now charged with were being committed in those rooms, according to the indictments. cassidy hutchinson didn't want to do it. the day the world met her on live television, testifying that to the january six committee, the very last thing she said, after fighting off a panic attack right before testifying, was do i have to do this? she had been asking herself that question silently for months. she was facing a monumental conflict with huge stakes between personal loyalty and truth. in the end, truth one. that is the story cassidy hutchinson tells in her new book, enough. joining us now for the discussion about that is cassidy hutchinson. thank you very much for doing this tonight. >> thank you for having me, lawrence. >> so, how are you dealing with the panic attacks? last night i saw in the hallway here before going on rachael show. you didn't seem close to a panic attack at all. is this a calmer process than what you went through with the committee? >> i'm more at peace now. i'm still nervous. it's a different type of nervous though. before i testified to the committee into the country, i felt there was a lot riding on what i was going to say. i was also calmed by the sense that i was fulfilling my sense of duty. this chapter of my life is different, and made the choice to come forward. and share my story. so, there's a natural nerve element to it. as alex butterfield's book help me, there have been forces throughout this journey that have helped me along the way in this section of my life. now, i feel very blessed and honored to be able to be here with you today, to help share that story. >> your mother is the first person you think in this book. she's, throughout the book, as one of her guiding lights. she gets you through some very difficult moments in this book. how is she dealing with this week in your life? where you have now been doing this, i've seen a little bit on some of the interviews we've done so far, about this. this is a whole new stage for your mother. how she doing? >> she's doing really well. i think it's a difficult adjustment for her to, she is concerned parent, she wants the best for me. i think she also is guided by the sense of peace, knowing that what i'm doing can hopefully help impact somebody, at least one other person, but hopefully we can help the country as well. >> in the book, there are times when you are protecting your mother from the knowledge of what kind of pressure you're under. and possibly, the kinds of threats you could face. especially when you have become cooperating witness in the january six committee. the security requirements for that change dramatically, and there were moments there we didn't your mother to know just how risky that could be. i suppose. i also think that she knows that there are, it's gonna be okay. i've also made peace with this, even if there are security threats now, it's not something we haven't dealt with before. her, go and my goal, is to get past this moment in american history. you are free to speak out and tell the truth. because you're worried that there are people that are gonna threaten your safety and security. that's not normal. that's not normal politics. you need to get past that as a country. so, we know, we know from your book, that you testified to deter tierney fani willis's grand jury in georgia. she has said she has 150 witnesses for the trial. against donald trump. or mark meadows, if they're trying together. both of those trials. are you one of those witnesses? >> i have cooperate with every investigation that i've been asked to testify to. and i will continue to do so. in any and every investigation moving forward. >> so, has the district attorney given you any sense that you might be testifying in this first speedy trial that occurs next month? >> if he does ask, i will be fully cooperative. >> so far she hasn't? there's no word from them about testifying? >> i'll leave it with my prior state for. now >> i understand, some of these questions will have that kind of careful internally you might have to give. i want to do the same thing with jack smith's prosecutions. jack smith's prosecution in washington d.c., that might not be occurring if not for the testimony. if not to the january six committee will be a witness that's the case of the united states of america versus donald trump. that's the name of the case. where he is charged with crimes leading up to leading up to ana jenner six only defendant in that case. despite a witness in that trial? >> if jack smith and his team will ask to testify, i will cooperate with that. >> is that an index card? it is, not lawrence, i want to be careful not just for my interests, but i think that there is something to respect but institutions of government, and our department of justice is designed to operate effectively behind closed doors. i will not want to get to have anything that the prosecution is doing. but i will say this to you, lawrence. what i think i testified to to the committee was vital, it was important. it was vital and important at the time. there weren't a lot of other people testifying. hopefully, open the door to the people that could potentially provide more information. >> my next question, which i anticipate the answer to already, is because of the book. not because anything you said in the january 6th committee. and it is the question of, will you be a witness in the florida case, charging donald trump with violations of the s of the espionage act? obstruction of justice? also as to codefendants, people who work for him. who were in their, way similar positions to what you're in the white house with the president. and the reason i ask, it the book is filled with mark meadows burning documents in that fireplace. in the white house chief of staff's office. there is a description of the classified documents being moved around being stored in your desk where you're saying they shouldn't be stored. and then being handed to reporters. all of that raises the question of whether you would have relevant information to that case in florida? and would you be a witness there? >> i'm not sure that have relevant information necessarily directly pertinent to that case, lawrence. but i think what i discussed in the book, and overall, in terms of how the administration, especially towards the, and handle classified information, the book helped shed light on that. and also help shed light on how frivolous a certain individuals were handling classified information. i can't speak exactly to what was brought down to mar-a-lago. i could speak, and i can, speak to how we were not handling classified information to the standards of the national security community would expect. >> you have descriptions of that, going right up until 15 minutes before noon on inauguration day, with mark meadows. telling you that he's running over to the justice department to try to get document declassified before donald trump loses the powers of the presidency. when you are witness did you see things the help explain explain and to get to. florida that the fbi found in the search warrant. . in hindsight, now especially what we will mark particularly mark was the. i don't know if that's part of the indictment just to be completely frank with. it it still speaks to how documents. gotten to florida. made their way down there. i wouldn't i'm not under the impression that that was necessarily an accident. >> you mean, just by the general way documents were made in the west wing? or specifically, where the specific moments you saw, collections of boxes over there in the corner, that you undersecretary for? >> i was not directly part of the packing of the boxes process. >> okay. this book is so, i'm gonna say, surprisingly well written. because these are the kinds of books that come out when someone's going through a big events, and they generally chronicle the events clearly. and hopefully, as this book certainly does. you had mark salters, a great writer, collaborating with you on this. he helped john mccain write books. it is an astonishingly personal. book that you tell us everything there is to know about your family and how that interacts with these events. in this story, you are failed by many men, going through this story, not just mark meadows, your boss. and the president united states but beginning, sadly, with your father. and the way your father failed you in the midst of your desperate attempt to try to get a lawyer and he went to your father to try to get financial help from her father. you brought your january 6th subpoena with you to show to him. i just wanna use your audio book to tell the audience that passage of the book. what is listen to that. >> i pulled my subpoenaed that i voted in quarters out of my coat pocket, and handed it to him. police, i just need you to listen. i said, my voice trembling. he looked at me, expecting me to say more, but i couldn't find my words. he threw the subpoena in the trash, ranting that he didn't need to do anything it ask me to do. he had read online that it wasn't mandatory to comply with congressional subpoenas. the investigation was a witch hunt to take donald down. he said. he prayed i wasn't there to ask for money to pay for a corrupt lawyer, any lawyer who didn't work for donald was corrupt. he had raised me better than to turn my back on people who cared about me, people like himself and donald. you didn't raise me at all, was always thought of to say. >> that scene gets even rougher than that. this is, i'm sure, it was painful to. right it's painful to read. and it is very much, it seems to, me as a reader, a very clear explanation of the kinds of pressures in predicament the urine. >> yeah, you know, that scene was difficult to write. as was a lot of the book, lawrence. when i made the decision to write a book, and about my experiences, i knew going into it, that i wanted to bring people into how actually experience. that i felt that it was quote really critical. i wasn't just somebody that arrived at that moment. on june 28th. i had a lot of trial and error to get to that moment. i've made a lot of mistakes. i tried my best to take accountability for all of those. but i think what's important to the, reader as mark salter and i, who thank you for your very kind words in these marks alter, is a phenomenal human being. but helped pull the story out of me in a way that i wouldn't have been able to do on my own. when mark and i were writing this, together, we i wanted to write it in a way where i wanted to bring my readers in to the actual moments that helped shape me. that scene, in particular, yes, it was very difficult. even just hearing that, that's the first line of heard the audio book. it's important help explain how it got to where i was. when i had a trump affiliated count, trump affiliate lawyer, and then when i ultimately made a split. and found new council. >> in trying to, explain your now trying to explain to the whole country. to a large audience. i know, i know my twitter and the comment last night, with rachel show, and today. there are people in this audience right now, who can't understand why you're a republican. and then they cannot possibly understand why you would work for donald trump. i get it. i worked in washington, you started off and legislative working in with congress, -- and then it legislative affairs. all with members of the house and senate to try to pass legislation. and you only end up in the white house chief of staff's office in april of the last year. of the trump presidency. it will be five or six. yeah, it's only a few months before you're at the election. and then it's lost. and then there's the manus of the december. but in that process, what i discovered in the book, is that there was one person, there is one person that i can find in here, actually, maybe a couple, pat cipollone, who when it mattered, said, no, you can't do. that i was sitting out here, watching that presence. and wondering is there anyone is there anyone in the west wing who says to anyone above them, in your case mark meadows, impassable on his case, the president and mark meadows, that no, you can't do that? that's something you are doing a lot? >> it is. and i took the job with mark with the understanding that we would likely not always agree on everything. and a large part, that's why mark and i had an effective working relationship. mark but a lot of trust in me. mark, and i, ideologically, aren't very similar and -- >> new jersey -- >> thank you. but something has to be able to -- somebody has to be the person to -- or just give advice you might not want to hear. and it might not be received well. but it was important that i always provide that to mark. i felt i was there to advise him and guide him in that job. was i a fish out of water at points? absolutely. but i think that is how a lot of the trump administration fade out. and i think what sometimes i think is lost is that there were a lot of hair on fire. moments we were swimming to stay afloat. a lot of times we were drawn in. and whether it was passed cipollone, or myself, or a few other staff that were willing to be able to say no, the presidents word was still the final word. it was our job to make sure he had the best advice possible. >> it is so striking in the book how challenging it was for you to get to the spot where, first of all, you could find on his lawyers who would give you that advice. and then tell the whole truth to the january six committee. it's also fascinating to see that, when you are getting bad advice from a trump paid lawyer, and you are doing those depositions in the january six committee, you are trying to leave them clues. you were giving them incomplete answers, were you were hoping, as you put it, they were bread crumbs that they could follow up with other people. >> yeah, it's true. i want wanted -- i felt i was in a difficult position in a lot of ways. because, when i found my way back into trump world, and i had a trump world attorney, there also is a sense of an understanding in that environment. and i know, because i have been part of that environment. and i spent a year trying to sort of separate from that environment. but there is an understanding that you have a higher loyalty. and i knew how i felt about january 6th. i knew how fervently i disagreed with that. but i also knew that i was -- or, i felt i was not in a position to be completely empowered to tell the whole truth. but i wanted the truth to be known. and it took a lot of introspection and thinking and reevaluating my decisions. but even on june 28th, i did not want to be the person sitting in that chair. and i don't say that as if i have some heroes complex. i should not have been the person sitting in that chair that day. it should have been more senior people to me. i understand why it was important i sat in that chair today. and i am proud of all the work that the committee did. and if i could have provided any information to help their investigation, or any investigation, i fulfilled my duty as a public servant. but, lawrence o'donnell, we are living in this era where people are avoiding accountability, and they are not upholding the oath ace to uphold and defend the united states. and that is not okay. none of this is okay. it takes somebody to say enough. enough is enough. we need to be able to get past that. we need to be able to move on and we need to restore normalcy and responsibility in our politics. >> this story, which is so compellingly told, and so revealing -- and, i will admit to you, i thought this is slow going at the beginning. because i want to get to the good stuff. and i realize, no, no, no. it's all worth it. it's all necessary to get to this understanding of you. i just want -- you don't have to answer it now. in this hour of television you are not going to get the understanding of cassidy hutchinson from reading this book as you -- your family in new jersey, the family we begin with in this book. which has its own struggles. and then there is the trump family, what mark meadows refers to you as staying in the family, and others referred to the family, meaning staying on the team, or the trump team. and then towards the end of the story there is the family of support that you discover that now includes your lawyers. and you were led to that family by may be the key person in that family, was a 97 year old man who i know is watching this show tonight who decades before you were born did what you did, and went into a congressional investigation of a republican president and told the truth. let's look at that moment. >> -- -- are you aware of any listening devices in the office of the president? >> i was aware of listening devices, yes, sir. >> mr. butterfield, as far as you know from your own -- 1970s until the present time, all of the presidents conversations and all of his -- and on the telephone mentioned were recorded. as far as you know? >> that is correct. >> and as far as you know, those tapes are still available? >> as far as i know. but i have been away for four months, sir. >> i have no further -- >> how did alexander butterfield become your guy through this challenge? >> i had reached a point in april of 2022 where i was reading through pages of my transcripts that had been made public. and it was, for lack of a better phrasing, but i sort of had this mental breakdown. because i saw that i became the person that i never wanted to become. and i knew how far gone i was from that person, and how far gone i was from that person i wanted to become when i entered public service. but i also was able to recognize that there was a slim window where i could correct course, and i could find a second chance. and it would be hard. but i wanted to try. so, i connected with an old friend, alyssa farah griffin, who is my first guiding light in this journey. and it was her i worked within the trump administration. and she spoke out after january 6th, on the seventh, against what happened that day. but then i was driving up to new jersey, as i do every night. need to get a little bit of relief from d.c.. and i start googling watergate. and i was thinking, there had to be somebody -- there had to be somebody in watergate that had a similar position to me that had known a lot, and that had a position that require this incredible, incredible amount of trust and confidence that ended up doing the right thing. and that's when i came across alexander butterfield's name. i searched his name and i was like, he must have had to write a book. and he didn't, in the immediate. and i found this book that he worked on with bob woodward. the last of the presidents men -- >> we both have our copy. >> -- in new jersey, and i wrote it three times in a night. and i saw in alex the person i wanted to be and i saw this incredible moral character, this incredible american patriot. but he knew that if he was ever asked to testify, he would be forthcoming. he would tell the truth. and he had no reservations about that. and that is how i wanted to be. and that's why wanted to get myself. i was in a very dark period of my life, but -- sharing this story nearly 50 years later with bob woodward is the reason i'm sitting here with you today. and if there is anything -- hopefully we'll have more time to discuss it as well, because this book was profound. and i think alexander butterfield is one of the most incredible people i'd be honored to know in -- but the fact that he was willing to share his story, but also share the truth. history will repeat itself if we don't have good people in government willing to stop corruption. and alex is so emblematic of that. >> alex has something to say to you, which we are going to get to after this commercial break. we are going to be right back with cassidy hutchinson. cassidy hutchinson. 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when he was doing it. and i think he was more clear for him all the way through, if i get that subpoena, this is what i have to do. but it is so striking to me that someone who did what you did 50 years ago speaks to you through this book, in effect, 50 years after the fact, and helps you find your way to do the same thing. and now you give us a book that someone is going to pick up this book 50 years from now, 150 years from now. we don't know. somebody is going to pick up this book and do the same thing that you did because of alexander butterfield giving -- >> one of the first things alex and i spoke about -- well, he actually reached out to you and your staff after we saw alex on your program. this part is not in the book, but i will share with you here. when you have alex on your program, i was in a hotel in atlanta. and my mom texted me. she was like, you need to turn on lawrence o'donnell. i turned on the tv. and i try to get in touch with alex in different ways. we just kept hitting dead ends. and i saw that you had alex on your program. i just started to cry because i saw the man, and i hope he had watched that testimony, and i had tried to get in touch with him. and it was just that connection to him that -- i knew he had seen it. and i felt that connection where, if i never got to speak with him, i had that much, where i had your capsule of what he said to you that night. the first time that alex and i spoke over izium, he asked me to promise him that, if somebody ever came to me 50 years or however long from now, with a similar proposition, or finding themselves in a similar position that we found ourselves in, when he asked me to promise them that i would help them. and it was one of those profound yet said full moments as well because, i am sure that alex did not think that, 50 years from then, that he would had the impact that he had on my life, in his decision to come forward. but i hope from 50 years from now we don't have the same issues, where we are dealing with corrupt presidencies. but i promised him i would, and that's also a big reason why i wrote the book, because if i can -- working in a corrupt presidency, and you are afraid to speak, up and you need to speak up. and you need to stick up for yourself somewhere else, in another part of your life. the impact on his story had on me, there's no way i can fulfill his promise. >> anyone in high school or -- anyone who has started to work in washington and is in their early twenties had better read this. book it is all there. it is -- alexander butterfield gets the last line of this book, which i had thought about reading on the show. and i don't want to, as a spoiler alert, and also because i would not be able to read it without trying. because i would be a crybaby this moment. we will skip that. and in lieu of that, alex sent us a little message today, just for you. let's look at that. >> cassidy, i want to tell you something. i was so impressed, as were others who heard you, when you gave your testimony before congress. you are very effective. and it comes through we'll, that you are your own person. i mean, you said i inspired you. i am happy if i did. but i don't think so. i don't think so. you are very much your own person. and you come across wonderfully well. and i think you will learn and will continue to be an inspiration to other young people. i didn't have the pressures when i testified that i am sure you had. and that is a big factor. but as i say, you did very well. you come across as though you are speaking from the heart. and that is very clear. >> when you met him out in california, went out to see him, you shed a few tears into that cashmere sweater of. his >> on his gray cashmere sweater. thank you for that. alex just has one of those souls that i am so fortunate to have him in my life. and it sounds so hokey. but i think that we all should strive to be a little bit more like alexander butterfield. just somebody that has this outstanding moral integrity and character. and it's not just that he came forward and testify truthfully, honorably. but he cares deeply about people. he cares deeply about this country. and alex has helped me in more ways than i can describe. but even in the two times i have had the opportunity and the privilege to spend time with him in california, he is always going to be a part of my heart. >> we will be right back with more from cassidy hutchinson. ssidy hutchinson with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. i was a bit nervous at first but then i figured it's just walking, right? [dog barks] oh. no it's just a bunny! calm down taco. sit duchess. stop! sesame no no. archie! walter don't, no, ahhhh. ahhhhh! you're lucky you're so cute. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty.♪ every day, more dog people are deciding it's time for a fresh approach to pet food. developed with vets. made from real meat and veggies. portioned for your dog. and delivered right to your door. it's smarter, healthier pet food. >> and we are back with cassidy hutchinson. so, none of your testimony has ever been seriously in question. there was some false reporting from trump sources immediately after your testimony saying that the crazy behavior that you described of donald trump with a secret service detail, while trying to go to the capitol, never happened. let's listen to that testimony. >> when i returned to the white house, i walk towards the stairs towards the chief of staff. i noticed mr. ornato outside the offense. he avoided eye contact quickly with me to go to the office across your mind. when i went in, he shot a door, i notice trump and a security detail, sitting in a chair, looking somewhat discombobulated at a loss. he had said, did you hear what happened in the beast? he said, no, tony, i just got back, what happened? tony proceeded to tell me that when the president got these, he was under the impression that mr. meadows, moving into the capital was still possible and likely to happen, but that bobby had more information. before they got into the vehicle with bobby, he thought that they were going up to the capitol, and when bobby had relayed to him or not, it's not secure, we're going back to the west wing. the president had very strong, very angry response to that. tony described him as being irate. the president said something to the effect of i am the effing president, take me to the capitol now, which bobby responded, sir, we have to go back to the west wing. the president reached up towards the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. mr. engel grabbed him's arm, said, sir, i need you to take your hand off the steering wheel, we're going back to the west wing. we're not going to the capitol. mr. trump then used his free hand to plunge towards bobby. when mr. ornato describe to me the story, he motioned towards his clavicle. >> one of them testified under oath to the committee. i do not recall. he said he had no memory of that conversation. >> lawrence, i find a sort of ironic that we see this pattern emerged in the world a lot, where we have men whose memory often fail them. i said that in my testimony to the committee, i said that in my testimony provided to the department of justice. i stand by my testimony provided to the fulton county investigators, and i say everything i described in the book. >> you say the book that the trump funded lawyer who started with was advising you to say, i do not recall, pretty much all the time, even when he did recall. >> that's correct. there also was an element of that to, if you don't recall an event fully, let's refresh your memory on things. i think looking at that as a whole, i think that's the experience of a lot of people in trump world who have trump appointed attorneys. i think the individual in florida in the mar-a-lago case, who has recently switched, according to propublica reporting, from a trump appointed attorney to a public defender, or a public attorney, because that individual was counseled to not recall certain events to protect the president. it's not the job of the patrol's hoping to protect somebody else, it's the job of individuals to share with the investigators. that's the only way our justice system will continue to work, and that had a profound impact on why i also decided to call for more information. i made that choice, i made that conscious choice to come forward, i did not have to do that. i did not think that i would be able to live with myself, had i not been able to. it's also because i have deep respect for our institutions of government, and they only work if people help them work. >> what would you say to the two codefendants trump has with him in georgia, who work for him and are now accused of committing crimes for him. his lawyers are supplied by donald trump. i would tell them to think long and hard. i had a conversation with a member of congress, a republican member of congress who did not serve on the committee. while going through that period of wanting to come forward with more information, i call this member of congress who is named sam in the book, it's a pseudonym. i was on the phone with sam explaining that i can't me, and sam told me to go look at the air. i would stand on the phone if you go look at the mayor. i want to look into a mirror and ask me what i am looking at. do i like the person looking back at me? could i live with that person for the rest of my life, because i am the only person to ask to live with these decisions and choices that i make. whether it's the two individuals, mr. trump's current defendants in the case in florida, or anybody that finds themselves in a similar predicament to me, i don't know if foot but be pretty effective for me, right? but just to think long and hard about where your loyalties lie and who you are and want to be? do you want to protect somebody that sees you as expendable, sees you as their shield. that is what donald trump does. donald trump expose people loyal to him. donald trump exploits people who he knows are vulnerable. donald trump expose people who will do what needs to be done to protect them. donald trump does not have loyalty to anybody but himself. donald trump will view anybody in his path to help himself get ahead. i think people need to understand that before they go into the trials because it's not too late, not too late to do the right thing, always their time to do the thing. it's not easy, but there is a way to do it, and a mix parents, i find that it leads to a more rewarding life. i don't to sugarcoat that i know i made the right choice, and not that i am on the other side, i see the dangers of donald trump. i see the dangers of what he requires and distill sense of loyalty, and that is not normal. it's wrong, and i think we need to make sure that donald trump cannot continue exploiting vulnerable americans, for the people that work for him or whether it's his loyal base of supporters, who hui has continuously fooled for the last seven years and potentially in the next election cycle. >> the last word from cassidy hutchinson right after this. after this. for fast sore throat relief, try vicks vapocool drops. with two times more menthol per drop, and powerful vicks vapors to vaporize sore throat pain. vicks vapocool drops. vaporize sore throat pain. as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty. all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly support will make you part of the movement to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards. but the aclu can't do this important work without the support of people like you. you can help ensure liberty and justice for all and make sure that every vote is counted. so please call the aclu now or go to my aclu.org and join us. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and much more. to show you're a part of the movement to protect the rights guaranteed to all of us by the us constitution. we protect everyone's rights, the freedom of religion, the freedom of expression, racial justice, lgbtq rights, the rights of the disabled. we are here for everyone. it is more important than ever to take a stand. so please join us today. because we the people means all the people, including you. so call now or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty. i brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! uuuhhhh... here, i'll take that! woohoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams of protein, 1 gram of sugar. enter the $10,000 powered by protein max challenge. ♪ ♪ >> we're back with a last word by cassidy hutchinson. i want to read this passage from your book, page one 81, at the supreme ruled against donald trump and his election cases. and you are standing with mark meadows, and president trump says to his chief of staff, -- how did this happen? why did we not make more calls? we needed to do more, okay? we can't let this stand, the president raged. mark tried to reassure the president, pushing back saying, i don't want people to know that we lost, mark, it is embarrassing. so two thanks, mark calls to whom about a supreme court decision? >> you know i, lawrence, i wish i had the answer to that question. i think if anybody could clarify, it would solve a lot of america's problems. >> is it one of those things that made sense and that moment or did not. >> there are a lot of things that did not make sense in the moment. >> to the more elementary point here that is of great interest to prosecutors, you are standing there, and you hear donald trump say i don't want people to know that we lost, it is embarrassing. in fulton county georgia, that is important evidence against defendant trump, very important about defending trump in washington d.c. in jack smith's case. i assume the story was told to the grand jury in georgia. >> to every entity, yes, also in my public transcripts with the general six committee. >> so that would be one at the key points that -- reasons that you would be called as a witness in those prosecutions. >> potentially, yes. there have also been several people to have testified on the record to being in his presence where he admitted that he lost the election. there are people on the record on both sides, in my committee transcripts as well, as well as other government entities, that sometimes he question whether he lost. again, i can't climb into his psyche, but it seemed clear to me that he knew that he lost the election, mark meadows knew that he lost the election, but they're doing everything they could to try to prove that the election was stolen somehow. you can't prove that it was stolen when it was not stolen. you can't prove an election stolen when there was free and fair, and joe biden was duly elected president. >> no one who has ever been on this program has been as close to kevin mccarthy as you, and your book shows that you were very close to kevin mccarthy, first name basis, calling him kevin, very friendly. let's watch after the capitol attack, what kevin mccarthy set. >> the president's responsibility for wednesday's attack on congress. you should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding. these facts require immediate action to president trump except to share responsibility, quell the brewing unrest and ensure president elect biden is able to successfully begin his term. >> how did you feel about his friend kevin, when he said that, and how do you feel about where he is now? >> i felt proud of kevin in that moment. i did continue to work for donald trump, but i would be a longer conversation, but i go into that in the book a lot, my personal struggle with that, but that was the kevin that i was proud, that was the leader that i saw and kevin mccarthy, but then a couple weeks later, kevin was down at mar-a-lago with donald trump, seemingly apologizing and trying to me up with him. kevin is the most powerful republican in our government right now. he is third in line to the presidency. kevin as an opportunity to stop this, and is kevin responsibilities, not only in the republican conference through this trying time, but is his responsibility to emerge as a leader. to emerge as a leader for our country so we can explain how we overcame this. i have faith catholic to do that if you wanted to. i don't know if he would, but i hope that he would find the courage to do that, because i did have a thing kevin mccarthy, and i do respect him. but power is an ethical thing, and i