Transcripts For MSNBCW Deadline 20240703

Seeing trumps very own words and rhetoric in a court filing as it gets. Attorneys for the expresident accuse the Special Counsel of asking the court to, quote, take the extraordinary step of stripping President Trump of his First Amendment freedoms during the most important month of his campaign against President Biden. They say, quote, now keenly aware that it is losing that race for 2024, the prosecution seeks to unconstitutionally silence President Trumps but not President Bidens political speech. On pain of contempt. End quote. Now, if all this sounds familiar, its because trumps attorneys have been making this argument for months now. As the New York Times notes, almost from the moment mr. Trump was indicted, his legal team has raised a First Amendment defense. Its also a defense that jack smith anticipated. His indictment of donald trump on the Election Interference Case says on the second page, the defendant had a right, like every american, to speak publicly about the eleioand even to claim, falsely, that there had been outcomedeterminative fraud during the election, and that he had won. When it comes to this request, barring so called extrajudicial statements, jack smith makes it clear, hes not trying to muzzle trump as his attorneys claim, but instead hes seeking what prosecutors describe as, quote, a narrow, Wellefed Restriction that is targeted at extrajudicial statements that present a serious and substantial danger of materially prejudicing this case. Limiting the gag order to, ote, statements regarding the identity, testimony, or credily of prospective witnesses and statements about any party, witness, torney, court personnel, or potential jurors that are disparaging and inflammatory, end quote. Underscoring this is the fact that nearly anyone donald trump accuse lgs of standing in his way faces threats of ce, harassment, and intimidation. Smith makes clear, he said, put simply, those involved in the Criminal Justice process who read and hear the defendants disparaging and inflammatory messages frort personnel, prosecutors, judges, to potential jurors may reasonably arhat they could be the next targets of the defendants attacks, end quote. Its lot to unpack here. It is an incredibly serious matter. Joining us, the former lead investigator for the january 6th investigative committee, tim, and charlie sikes. Tim, the implication that jack smith is indicating here, its important. Its the idea that, as they go to choose, to select jurors, and to ensure those jurors listen to the evidence and listen to the trial fairly, they cant be scared that something bad will happen to them. Thats just juicing jurors as an example. Nobody involved in this process can be worried about intimidation not just by donald trump but by the tens of millions of people who do his bidding. Yeah, exactly right. To be clear, the prosecutors request for a gag order is specific. Its limited to disparaging comments about people, about witnesses, about the prosecutor, about the judge, about individuals. That does not take away a broader First Amendment right to criticize the Criminal Justice system, criticize the case against him. I think theres a way here for the judge to protect the integrity of the process and the individuals involved from that inflammatory and specific rhetoric and allow him to continue to make much more broad general statements about his innocence and about, you know, his theory that this is some kind of politically motivated prosecution. Again, i think that she needs to protect the safety of those people, because as you said, weve seen people dont take his statements rhetorically, they take them literally, while still protecting his rights to criticize the cases. Jack smith anticipated this, put it on the second page of his indictment. I dont know if donald trump hasnt read the constitution or doesnt under the First Amendment or understands it very well. Jack smith as said, and he will say so again in court, donald trump can say anything he wants about whether he won the election or didnt win the election. Donald trump can be lying about the election. Thats not criminal. It is the underlying conspiracy and the activities they undertook to actually change prevent peoples votes from being counted, inhibit people from voting. Thats what this case is about. Well, thats right. The prosecutors are not trying to eliminate Donald Trumps ability to speak during the campaign. Theyre saying in a narrow way that he should be held to the standards of other criminal defendants here. The context is important. The context of the rising threats of violence, the fact that he has used intimidation and bullying in the past, tried to influence witnesses, is trying to take the jurys book. He is attacking prosecutors and trying to undermine the court. Any other criminal defendant trying to do that would face sanctions. The judge in this case has to walk a narrow line. She wont revoke his bail and put him in jail, but she does need to warn him if he continues to behave in this manner, that the court is not going to look the other way. Donald trumps response, the response of his lawyers, is really on two tracks. Number one is the political track, which is hes going to claim hes appealing to the court of Public Opinion. Thats a campaign document. Woe is me. I am being silenced. As opposed to the narrow issue in front of the court, which is are we going to take the bullying and intimidation of potential witnesses and jurors and participants in this court case, are we going to take it seriously as we would in any other case . So, it will be very interesting to see how the judge manages to finesse this. Tim, i think thats the important thing. As in any other case obviously, there are lots of cases where the defendant might be somebody of influence, either because they have money or contacts or they might be a mobster. This is not the first time that this kind of request is being made. Its not even particularly novel. Whats novel is its being applied to a former president of the United States. Exactly. Task for judge and for the whole system is President Trump should be consistent with everyone else while at the same time recognizing hes a president ial candidate. She is going to have to do something to protect the integrity of the process while allowing him to continue to exercise his First Amendment rights. Again, i think its doable. I think you separate the specific from the general. That is the line she will likely draw. The harder part, as charlie said, will be sanctions. Lets assume he goes over the line. For contempt, you can fine someone, hold them in custody. That would obviously be a really significant stem that im sure she does not want to take. But im curious if there is a violation and her considered sanctions. The problem is the nature of defendant. Yesterday you talked about this. It started with lock her up, unseemly and unusual even for the times, but it seems so cute and benign now. Then it became contributing to this whole concept of Hang Mike Pence. While he never said those words, his supporters did, and he didnt come out and say you cant hang my Vice President , that would be a bad thing. Now its about executing mark millier. He should face the Death Penalty. Donald trump says things that would cause a regular person to be scared of potentially crossing him. One of the things he seems to be doing is normalizing this rhetoric of violence. The fact hes talking about killing his political opponents. We thought it feels outrageous when he was talking about locking them up. But january 6th should have made that crystal clear, that there are people who listen to what he says and will act upon it. The normalization of the rhetoric of Political Violence can lead to the normalization of Political Violence itself. And this is something that i think we all need to keep in mind and certainly the judicial system needs to keep in mind. As nicolle has said, all the red lights are blinking here. Anyone involved in these controversies knows the level of threat and intimidation is rising out there. The real threat of violence, this is not some theoretical. We have seen lone actors act on it. Weve seen conservative action. This, again, is part of the context of all of this. I do feel in some ways that we are all like the boiling froth, you know, the temperature is being turned up and weve kind of become numb to it. Its become routine. Where is the blowback . How come every news show does not lead with the fact that the former president is calling for the Death Penalty against a u. S. General, that he channelled along with the crowd, Hang Mike Pence . How does that not dominate our political moment. The fraud. We are the fraud. And yes, and we better realize it before it is too late. I want to bring in the constitutional law and fraud expert, professor at George Washington university, katherine ross, to examine this. Professor, this is the problem. The judge cant either i dont ever react to this nor be seen to overreacting to what jack smith is asking for. On the other hand, charlie said the normalization of Political Violence can lead to the actual Political Violence itself. That is an actual reality in the world in 2023, and it is an actual reality under donald trump. So, what judge chutkin has in front of her is a much more substantial potential threat than lets say if it were even a mobster who was on trial, who had been on trial for killing people in the past, because they have limited reach. Donald trump has remarkable reach. Thats right. I agree with what charlie just said about the enormous risks of violence that are not even subtle. Theyre right out there. Were being told, were seeing them, seeing the threats to court personnel, prosecutors, election officials, and theyre being acted on by followers. So, the judge is walking the proverbial balance bar. On the one hand, she needs to treat trump like any other defendant. We have a rule of law, not of men. And on the other hand, she cannot ignore what we know about who this defendant is and his outsized influence and power as well as his history. So, she needs to think about im sure she is thinking about the risk of violence by his supporters if She Disciplines him, and if she uses the normal processes for keeping a defendant within the confines of the conditions of his release. I dont know how we both treat him like a normal defendant and understand the risks to our body politic and to our physical safety from his followers and that he is broadcasting. So, this is challenge number one for her, because both of those risks are real. Treating him exceptionally and treating him like anyone else, especially when violence potentially hangs in the balance. This is, again, a man, we should remind everybody, who has just said that he thought mark milley should have faced the Death Penalty. He didnt disavow his protesters talking about hanging mike pence. To charlies point, almost quaintly, this is a man in 2015 and 2016 was leading chants about lock her up about a political opponent who had commit nod crime. So, what does the judge have to be thinking about right now . Nobody wants a judge that has donald trump arrested for tweeting something, but at the same time hes different from any other defendant facing these charges in American History. Well, this judge has a fulltime Security Detail that has to escort her when she wants to get a cup of coffee in the courthouse. And shes also aware that all of the lead prosecutors require 24 7 Security Details already. And she has already warned defendant trump that one of the things she can do is expedite the trial date. So, if i were her, i would seriously think about limiting the time he has to create the havoc that he is trying to create in the District Of Columbia with the jury pool and with potential witnesses, including perhaps general milley, and move that trial date up as early as the government is comfortable. Tim, whats your sense of it . Donald trump has had other opportunities to have this case heard, to respond to congress, to an impeachment. Now its going before ill say a court of law but several courts of law to evaluate what actually happened. When you read in particular the georgia indictment in combination with the january 6th jack smith indictment, theres a whole lot of overlap, a whole lot of witnesses to both. There are some people who are witnesses in one who are indicted coconspirators in the other. There are unindicted coconspirators being called as witnesses. Its a very hard dodge at this point for donald trump and his team. I think thats right, ali. Look, we have a tendency on this and other shows to talk about threats to democracy and whether the Vice President has authority, but there are real people whose lives and physical safety have been put in danger over the course of the events that are charged in these cases and continue to be. So, the judge has to evaluate the very real human costs of her own and participants safety but also all of the people whose personal safety its their own safety. Look, as you said, theres so much evidence here that finally, not in a Congressional Committee where theres not in on msnbc or the New York Times where people will say, well, thats onesided. Finally, these same facts that weve all been talking about for several years are going to be tested in a court of law, crossexamined, vigorously challenged by the former president and others. I hope that the forum of the Criminal Justice system, that vigorous challenge, the Presumption Of Innocence has the potential to change minds in this country in a way that the congressional process or other forums for presentation of those same facts did not. It has the chance to move the needle of Public Opinion because of that crucible of the adversarial system that the other processes didnt have. Timothy heaphy, catherine ross, thanks for spending time with us. Charlie sykes will stick around. You can, in fact, read all four indictments against President Trump, complete and unabridged in a handy book form, its called the trump indictments. You can read all of the Charging Documents against trump and his codefendants. When we come back, Bonn Menendez has people calling for his resignation. But the republicans are quiet, proving again they have become the procorruption party. And no republican or democratic president has ever done what President Biden did today, an historic trip to the picket line in michigan. Well talk about the balancing act as we head into an Election Year and an interview with the Union President , shawn fain, later in the show. Also Cassidy Hutchinson warning of a makeorbreak moment for the Republican Party when it comes to standing up to the expresident. [ ] theres a way to cut your dishwashing time by 50 . Try Dawn Powerwash dish spray. It removes 99 of grease and grime in half the time. It cleans so well, you can replace multiple cleaning products. Are you guys watching . This is my favorite part. Youre watching . Okay, time to get your own bed, hank. Chewy has great prices. Hope you like plaid. I do. Who wants popcorn . Shop and get a 30 egift card through october 1st. At chewy. Just between us, you know whats better than mopping . Anything ugh. Well, i switched to swiffer wetjet, and its awesome. Its an allinone, that absorbs dirt and grime deep inside. And it helps prevent streaks and haze. Wetjet is so worth it. Love it, or your money back. This is american infrastructure, a prime target for cyberattacks. But the same aipowered security that protects all of google also defends these services for everyone who lives here. The power goes out and we still have wifi for everyone to do our homework. And thats a good thing . Great in my book who are you . No power . No problem. Introducing stormready wifi. Now you can stay reliably connected through Power Outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery backup to keep you online. Only from xfinity. Home of the xfinity 10g network. New jersey democratic senator bob menendez is facing calls to resign with now 18 Senate Democrats calling on him to step down over bribery charges. Today, fellow new jersey democrat cory booker broke his silence and urged his colleague to resign from his post, saying, for nearly a decade ive worked in the senate alongside Senator Menendez. As new jerseys Junior Senator, i imagine that ive had more professional experiences with him than most other, and ive witnessed his extraordinary work and boundless work ethic. Its not surprising that the senator is again determined to mount a vigorous defense. And i still believe he, like anyone involved with our Criminal Justice system, deserves our Presumption Of Innocence until proven guilty. There is, however, another higher standard for public officials, one not of criminal law but of common ideals. As senators to, we operate in the public trust. That trust is essential to our ability to do our work and perform our duties for our constituents. The details of the allegations against Senator Menendez are of such a nature that the faith and trust of new jerseyans as well as those who must work with in order to be effective have been shaken to the core. Joining our conversation, one of Bob Menendezs former colleagues from california, Barbara Boxer. Shell be us in faw minutes. But charlie sykes, these developments have been rapid, theyve unfolded very quickly. We went from this news coming out on friday night, saturday, into now 18 Democratic Senators calling for his resignation. Hes saying hes not resigning, which is to be expected. Whats your sense of how this is unfolding . Well, i think what bob menendez is doing is testing the limits of our postshame political culture. All the headlines say hes being defiant. Hes being shameless because the details of this indictment are really stunning. I mean, its kind of oldschool bribery and corruption. You have cash stuffed into envelopes, 100 bills stuffed into his clothing, gold bars, mercedesbenz in the garage, the dna of his crooked friends all over it. This should be an openandshut case. And the democrats i think are appropriate in policing their own. But we live in this upsidedown world where you have republicans who are coming to his defense because of course they feel the need, what, to say that an indictment should not be disqualifying. I think its heartening that cory booker and the others are basically saying, look, you know, this is a public trust, this is an important position, what Robert Menendez is accused of doing is not just oldfashioned corruption. It poses a Real National Security Threat because of the role of the government of egypt. But its going to be interesting to see whether or not he can be shamed into doing the right thing politically over the next few weeks. I think were going to test the standards and the willingness to police their own of both political parties. The both part is interesting. Barbara boxer joins us. Senator, you tweeted out, thanks to democrats calling on menendez so quit. Sorry, its not normal to have closet fulls of cash and a couple of gold bars. Nobody is indispensable. If we are to save america, we need people who wont sell their souls. The nobody is indispensable part stood out. A lot of people are saying better or worse, democrats cant afford to lose a vote in the senate. I think thats your point, nobody is indispensable, even if its the vote democrats need to get legislation passed. First of all, the governor will appoint Senator Menendezs replacement, so we wont be without a senator for very long. But this is corrupt and dangerous behavior. I was so privileged to be either the chairman or the Ranking Member of the etics committee. And i went back to the rules of the Ethics Committee. So, if you set the legal questions aside, and it sounds to me like they have a strong case on dna and dollar bills and gold bars and all the rest, if you look at the ethics rules and you read them, theyre very, very clear. Rule 43 clearly says there can be no connection between your senate work and your financial ties. Senate rule 35, the gifts rule no member can accept gifts unless valued at less than 50. And it even goes on to say and i well remember, you know, mentoring the new senators on this, yes, you can take a greeting card, a baseball cap, or a tshirt. Thats actually in the rules. But nowhere in the ethics rules does it say you can take cash or gold bars. This is corruption on its face. And while the legal system moves forward, i would call on the Ethics Committee to begin proceedings. Charlie, what is the political consideration here . And what role should it play, if any, at all . Putting aside the fact, youre right, republicans have come to the senators defense because theyre using the argument that the doj is a corrupt organization that often wrongfully convicts or prosecutes people. Put that aside for a second. The politics of it for democrats. Democrats have done similar things in the past in which they have felt that their colleagues have not lived up to certain standards. What do you think how do you think this plays out . Well, i mean, in new jersey, the raw political calculus is pretty clear. Hes up for reelection next year, and this could be an electoral disaster. He was able to escape last time with a hung jury. As senator boxer points out, this is raw corruption. The evidence is right there. This is not really a gray zone. So, in new jersey, democrats have lined up to say, look, we need to move on from him, and it is not irrelevant the fact if he resigns, that the government would appoint another democratic senator, so there would be no effect in the control of the u. S. Senate. The question is how it will play nationally. I think democrats need to be very, very sensitive to the fact that they cannot tolerate somebody who is this corrupt in their ranks. I think that a growing number of democrats are recognizing this. Republicans may be sitting on the sidelines, but they will exploit this to the extent that they can. But the calculus in new jersey is very, very clear. Hes got to go. Senator, corruption is corruption, and the Justice Department under joe biden is proving it will go after breaks. Did it strike you as unusual that some republicans said the Department Of Justice might be the problem here and the senator to should not resign . The assault on the Department Of Justice is unrelenting in this Republican House and to some degree the senate. The republicans are so deep into their Conspiracy Theories and going against the rule of law that they dont even care who it is. Theyre going to come down on this president even though his Justice Department is saying we act without fear or favor, and they are proving it. Look, i dont have to remind myself i love to remind myself that they are going after hunter bide and now bob menendez, and, yes, donald trump. Therein lies this issue for my Republican Former colleagues who have no guts, and theyre willing to throw over the ruhle, the democracy. I want to take a moment to say it is hard for a cory booker to stand up and say what he did today. I want everyone listening to understand that, you know, youre tied at the hip with your colleagues. Theres only two senators from each state, and youre very close, so what he did was the right thing to do, a hard thing to do. The governor, hard for him to do it. And im proud of them, and i want to see this distinction. The Democratic Party, the party of democracy, the parry of the rule of law, were not going to stand and hide when its one of our own. Charlie, senator gary peters of michigan has just added his name to the list. Thats 19 Democratic Senators. But hes the head of the Democratic Senate Campaign Committee and hence its not the same as sort of the top leaders in the senate, but now this is moving into the ranks of Republican Democratic decisionmaking in the senate. At some point, whats the Tipping Point for menendez . As you said, the calculus in new jersey is clear. His fellow Junior Senator and his governor have called on him to resign, so a lot of other people in the state. Now were a few vote ace way from a majority of democrats in the senate. What happens at what point does Senator Menendez see the write tong wall. Well, it feels like the dam is breaking. Maybe we hit the Tipping Point with cory booker making that difficult decision to break with him so openly. To senator boxers point, in an environment like the senate, that was not easy. What will it take to get the senator to see this . This is the question of how far is he going to push the shamelessness . Hes been under scrutiny for some time, faced felony charges, was able to escape conviction because of a hung jury. Clearly, that emboldened him. It didnt make him more cautious or prudent or honest. Im not sure what it takes to convince somebody to give up a seat like this, because thats doing the right thing. Hes a United States senator and has the nocut contract as long as he wants to hold on to the seat. Thats the big question. And the question is how much pressure will the Democratic Party be able to bring to bear, will, you know, the campaign basically say we wont support you for reelection . Will we hear from the Biden White House or Chuck Schumer . I dont know. Thanks to both of you for your analysis on this. Former senator Barbara Boxer and charlie sykes, thanks for joining us. Up next, President Biden on the picket line in michigan. E i. Have you saying. Am i a big deal . Yeah you are, because its a big deal, when you get a big deal. Wayfair deals so big that you might get a big head. Because with savings so real. You can get your dream sofa for half the price. Wayfair. Its always a big deal. Wayfair, youve got just what i need new projects means new project managers. You need to hire. I need indeed. Indeed you do. When you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. Visit indeed. Com hire and get started today. About two years ago, i realized that jade was overweight. I wish i would have introduced the fresh food a lot sooner. After farmers dog, shes a much healthier weight. Shes a lot more active. And shes able to join us on our adventures. 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That was President Bidens selfdescribed most prounion, proworker president ever on the uaw picket lines in michigan, along side workers striking against gm, ford, and stellantis. The white house insists its the first instance of a sitting president visiting a picket line, perhaps underscoring how essential the proLabor Movement has become in modern american politics. Donald trump recognizes that as well. In an apparent to grab more workingclass votes in a key swing state, hell be in michigan tomorrow to deliver an address at a Nonunionized Detroit area engine parts supplier. Maybe he didnt get the memo on what the point of this was. Joining us is the former acting United States secretary of labor under barack obama and a member of the president ial auto task force, seth harris. And former top State Official during the biden administration, rich stengel is here. Im grateful for you being here. We have the force of the Labor Movement and the decisions that donald trump and joe biden are making. But, lets talk about the politics of this for a second. Joe biden claims to be the most proUnion President weve ever had. He definitely is strong amongst unions. You can watch his performance improve when hes amongst union people and union halls, when he declared he was running again, did it in a union hall. This is a tough one, though, for a president. Because in an auto strike, one calls upon the administration, people like seth, like youve been in the administration before. This is definitely putting the thumb on a scale in a very deliberate way. Good or bad. I think its good, ali. As you said, this is an historic first. No from the has ever walked on a picket line before. Normally president s avoid picket lines. Theyre above it all. Theyre trying to establish themselves as a kind of neutral judge of whats going on. Biden is saying, no, im a union guy, i have the hat on, the vest on. As you say, ali, politics has a lot to do with it. Donald trump won michigan in 2016 for the first time a republicans won it since 1988. He did historically well among union households. Thats in part why he was able to win. Biden took it back in 2020. He got 50 of the vote. Trump only got 48 . But the key statistic is about 20 of households in michigan are union households. Biden wants those votes. The tight rope he has is his policy espousing Electric Vehicles. A lot of these guys on the picket lines think the problem is that the big three have embraced Electric Vehicles as the future. Thats the tight rope he has to walk. Seth, i mean, kind of interesting, donald trump is trying to command the idea that hes the union guy and has this theory, as rick alluded to, that china and Electric Vehicles are the bigger challenge right now. So hes going to michigan. Hes going to speak at a nonunion shop, arguing about joe biden being sort of for this whole thing. All that aside, the Labor Movement is having a moment, seth, that weve not seen in this country in quite some time. Its more than just a moment, ali. Its been going on for quite some time. Weve seen huge successes at the Bargaining Table in 2021 with the john deere strike. We saw a huge success with the writers in hollywood. The teamsters got a tremendous contract from u. P. S. That is causing tens of thousands of people to apply nor jobs at u. P. S. Because the deal is such a good deal that they want it. And i think were going to see a very, very good contract for the uaw. They are holding strong. Theres immense solidarity. Their president is standing behind them. The American People are overwhelmingly in support of the uaw. So, i think we are seeing not just a moment, we are seeing a real sea change in peoples view of the Labor Movement and the role of the Labor Movement in our economy and our politics. Rick, the teamsters with u. P. S. Took an interesting approach and did very well in their negotiations. But people are doing stuff that weve all been talking about for years, and that is theyre looking at the spread between what ceos earn and what workers earn. Theyre looking at the increases that ceos have taken in times, particularly the auto union or airline union, where they ask workers to take cuts to Keep Companies alive. Theyre doing the math and saying wed like all of that. When the Companies Say no, they say, well, your ceos got it. It actually seems to be resonating with people. Public support for unions and strikes is on the upswing. Yes, ali. Its fairness. As President Biden has said, The Labor Union took historic sacrifices in 2008 to save the big three, as president obama did. And now those three companies are doing extraordinarily well. Multiple billions of dollars in profits in the first half. And weve seen over that time a 40 increase in ceo pay of the big three. So its only fair. And i think americans like that, they agree with that fairness, agree that workingclass people havent gotten a fair cut. By the way, remember, donald trump has been antiunion his entire career, since he used Illegal Immigrants to help build trump tower. Hes always tried to get away from paying union people a fair price and stiffing them. So, i think this resonates as the other guy, its performance art. Bob king, former president of the uaw, he said trump never looked at a baby finger for these unions. However, to ricks point, in 2016, he got a lot of union support. Those sort of handfisted terrorists he imposed on most of the world with respect to steel did cause a lot of Union Workers to think he was standing up for america. We have a large portion of americans, despite low employment, a good stock market, believe the economy is doing poorly. Right. But its not 2016 anymore, and the American People have seen Donald Trumps record. And he amassed the worst antilabor record in history. Just as joe biden is the most proUnion President in history, donald trump was the most antiUnion President in history. He tried to bust federal employment unions. His employees at the National Labor Relations Board in every big case sided with the worker. He appointed justices to the Supreme Court who tried to gut the right to strike and dont like unions or workers, especially. I could go down a long list of ways in which the Trump Administration undercut workers and worked for power. But the most important thing to focus on here is the sea change that occurred here today. 42 years ago, President Reagan fired the starting gun in an era of Union Busting and Union Avoidance by firing the airtraffic controllers. Today, a president of the United States stood on a picket line, put his arm around a striker, and said, you deserve more, your president is with you. This is a huge change. Its not just the first time anybodys done that, any president has done that in history. It is a direct effort to do exactly what the uaw is trying to do, and that is to undo the harm thats occurred over the last several decdecades, Undo T Concessions at the Bargaining Table and to undo an antilabor, antiunion politics in our society and country. The American People want to see that. Today President Biden spoke on their behalf. It may be that we are watching a moment in history in the shift in the way we perceive and understand value of unions in this country. Thanks, seth, thanks, rick. Well talk more about the United Auto Workers and the strike with the uaw president shawn fain in the next hour. Up next, a big loss for donald trump breaking a few moments ago in the new york civil fraud trial. 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Purple mattresss Exclusive Gelflex grid draws away heat, relieves pressure, and instantly adapts. Sleep better, live purple. Visit purple. Com or a Mattress Store near you. Are you still struggling with your bra . Its time for you to try knix. Makers of the worlds comfiest wireless bras. For revolutionary support without underwires, and sizes up to a gcup, find your new favorite bra today at knix. Com okay. Weve got major Breaking News, a major loss in court for donald trump in the civil suit brought by the new York Attorney general letitia james. A New York State judge has just ruled that donald trump committed fraud by exaggerating the value of his assets in Financial Statements. This was a major part of her case against donald trump. That case is set to go to trial on monday. Donald trumps attorneys had also asked to throw out the case, and the judge denied that request. The Attorney General james lawsuit seeks 250 million in fines and to bar the trump family from doing business. I just want to tell you, this has just come out, and were working our way through it. One of the people working her way through it is the New York Times Suzanne Craig. She was in court for the arguments. Shes someone weve relied on. Nobody knows more about it than you. I dont know if youve gotten through it, but i appreciate you being on now. Former United States attorney Glenn Kirschner is also with us on this Breaking News. Suzanne, let me start with you. Your reporting and testimony that weve heard in years gone by, including from Michael Cohen, is that this was standard procedure for the trump corporation. They did things like this. They inflated their assets in certain places. They reduced the value of those assets if necessary to do other things. They were inconsistent at best at the way they treated their assets. Tell me what you make of this ruling. Ive tried to give the best explanation we nonlegal people can give. But i know you know more about this than most. Know you know more about this than most. Youre being kind there. I think the allegation is pretty stark that donald trump there would be something that i think reasonable minds would agree would be worth 10 million and he would say its worth 100 million, and this happened over and over and over. And these statements were submitted to banks, to Insurance Companies in order to secure loans and post favorable terms, and to secure insurance policies, things like that. And the Attorney General had brought a civil suit, a quite large one that could cost him to the tune of 250 million. And i have to tell you im still working through todays ruling. It came down this is all just right before its supposed to go to trial on monday, and there were just some last minute motions for Summary Judgment, and that just means that each side had asked from a ruling from the bench prior to it going to trial. And i have to tell you, i looked at this and i did a double take. It is a huge loss for donald trump and a huge win for the Attorney General, what the judge has found is that donald trump on this main count im talking about, about the inflation of assets that in fact hes been found liable for that. Theyve determined he did, in fact, Overvalue His Assets again and again and again. And theyve not only done that, the judge has called for the cancellation of all the defendants Business Certificates in new york. And then on a third one theyre fining a number of the lawyers 7,500 each. This will still potentially move to trial on monday. Theres also another legal battle in this going on which is that donald trump has sued both the judge and the Attorney General. I think he was anticipating this and moved ahead of a hearing last week and actually sued the judge and the Appellate Court will come down potentially we think on thursday and weigh in with something that could move the trial and could affect this again. But in the shortterm today this is huge, huge blow for the Trump Organization. Theres a lot in there and all really big, so little bits of it, little sentences on here would its own be Headline News including the judge has ordered the canc clagz of all of Donald Trumps Business Certificates. Right, that was one of the things ordered today, and the Attorney General in their lawsuit that was brought, this has now been four years in the making, its been going through the civil courts. The essence of what theyre trying to do just in plain terms is literally trying to get to run Donald Trumps businesses out of the state of new york. Trump since this has started has moved a lot of his banking and his operations out of new york, and we still dont know in terms of theres still five other counts on this suit that will go forward to trial if its not moved. Were going to learn about that again later this week. Those will still move, and also the fine hasnt been determined yet. Thats sort of the number theyre looking for. These are some of the things i think will hurt at trial and it will be a bench trial in front of the civil judge. Ive known you longer than ive known most people, so heres what im going to do is continue this kfrz with a couple other guests. You stick around. The cameras going to stay on you. If you get more information, thats fine. But anything i ask you, ill be clear. So you dont have to listen in. Carry on and do your work. Ive also got the former assistant United States westchester District Attorney mimi rocah here in studio. This is the case that people forget, it sits by the wayside a little bit. Were not sure who it is. Who is supposedly harmed by this . When donald trump inflated his asassets for various purposes tish james, the Attorney General is saying theres a claim of harm. Can you explain that to me whats the harm and whats the claim . Thats a great question. One thing thats different about this case from so many others is this a civil action not criminal. Shes suing. Yes, essentially. The Attorney General has jurisdiction in large part over civil cases which has a different standard from criminal cases, different rules, et cetera. And one of those, i just want to make this kind of a little bit inside baseball legal point but important i think. One of the things thats different is in civil cases people can move, parties can move for summery judgment. Summary judgment means, judge, we dont have to have a trial on this. Just based on the papers and evidence were putting before you, theres no question of fact. Can you make this ruling . And that is what the judge did here at least it seems in part in making this finding. Thats pretty rare. Usually a judge more often than not Summary Judgment is denied and they say, no, no, we have to have a trial, theres a question of fact. Here we have the judge saying its so clear that im going to make this ruling in favor of the Attorney General. The Attorney General is bringing a case on behalf of the people of new york. Now, when you talk about harm in that sense, i mean its the Financial Institutions based on judges ruling. The judge is saying Financial Institutions were i mean i skimmed it. Financial institutions were lied to and deceived and, you know, trump and his businesses benefitted, and therefore, you know, thats what the cause of action comes from. So the harm is to those institutions and the people of the state of new york. Glenn kirschner if there has been at least in part a Summary Judgment here, some of that is due in part to the work that suzanne and her colleagues have done. I dont know if people remember this massive, massive undertaking that explained this story in deep detail and minutia that was more complicated than a legal conversation would be, more complicated than an Accounting Conversation would be, all put onto the front page of the New York Times and several pages therein. There is not certainly in the minds of new yorkers and people who have known donald trump for a long time and the way he does around here not a lot of questions to what these were because its a ledger issue. He would claim something to be 11 million and the other side he would claim less. How important is this development in the pantheon of legal challenges donald trump is facing right now . Sorry. You were going in and out a little bit. The connection is weak. But it is a ledger issue. I think thats why the judge did what he did. I tried to plow through the 35legal space densely written findings, but the conclusions are really remarkable, and im not even going to interpret them, but some of them include the grants, tish james motion for Summary Judgment, which you and mimi were just discussing, and that means there are no issues of fact that have to be resolved by the jury, and it is so clear there was repeated persistent fraud by trump and others that he is ruling in favor of tish james and the people of new york. And here is just some of what we see in the judges conclusions. He says the plaintiffs Summary Judgment is granted in part and trump and others and ill read the others in a moment are liable as a matter of law towards persistent violations of Executive Law Section 6312. What is that . Well, that is for repeated fraudulent or illegal acts in conducting business. And when that is what happens, the Attorney General can enjoin. That is stop the business or the people involved in the persistent fraud from operating, and so what the judge has said is that he wants three independent receivers to be named or recommended to, quote, manage the disallusion of the cancelled llc. Im almost loathe to interpret that, but it sounds like hes bordering the immediate postcancellation of the llc, that is the Trump Organization, and he immediately appoints retired judge Barbara Jones as the monitor of the Trump Organization until further notice. Barbara jones is a familiar name to many of us because she was appointed as the person who oversaw the review of the materials, the evidence that was seized i believe from both Michael Cohen and Rudy Giuliani some years back to go through what we call a taint review, to make sure there were no attorneyclient privilege materials turned over to the prosecutors. And so the judge also says he is canceling all Business Certificates filed by donald trump, don jr. , eric trump, eric weisselberg, and jeff mcconnie. So ali, im kind of loathe to go beyond that and interpret what this means, but taken on its face the plain meeting at the conclusion of this 35page order by the judge is he seems to be ordering the disillusion of the Trump Organization. In fact the line im reading of this summary and theres a reference here again, this is very, very new major Breaking News, so were still working out some of the details here with some of the best people around to do it. Theyre talking about within ten days the parties are directed to recommend three potential receivers to manage the Disallusion Of Llcs plural identified in the ruling. Im going to ask Suzanne Craig when she brings us up to speed when she joins us. If you are just joining us, it is now just after 5 00 here in new york. Im sitting in for nicolle wallace, and we are following major Breaking News out of manhattan. A major blow to Donald Trumps businesses and the image that he has crafted over the decades as a business mogul. Today a judge has just ruled just ruled that donald trump committed fraud by repeatedly exaggerating the value of his financial assets. The judge has also canceled the Business Certificates of donald trump and his Family Members and Allen Weisselberg. That ruling has come in the new York Attorney generals civil case against donald trump and his family. A trial is set to begin on monday. There remains six other issues that are still unresolved. So this is called a partial Summary Judgment. The judge has ruled on a number of things in this case without it going to trial. There are still unresolved issues including we believe what the fine will be and whether there will be a fine. Sticking with us sue craig, Glenn Kirschner, mimi rocah, and msnbc political analyst david jolly. Sue, i know youre reading through this and trying to make sense of it. Were trying to make sense of what the cancellation or disillusion of Donald Trumps llcs, is it singular or plural. Tell me what stands out more to you because youre more steeped in this than almost anybody. I have to say im thinking back to this is shocking but in a way on friday the hearing was on friday, and you had to see it coming. I made some notes when i was in court and the judge at one point was pounding the desk, and he said im going to paraphrase but he says you cant file false Business Stats in new york. Its against the statute. And he was really getting fed up with the Trump Lawyers about this and started pounding his desk over this. And so i think in a way this does you know, that set the table for this. But i dont think anybody was at least i dont want to speak for everybody but to see this sort of ruling today that really does just sort of fully go towards the Attorney General in the first and main count and just looking through the decision, i mean a number of properties that people are very familiar with are raised in terms of we know he had done the valuations on seven springs, on maralago and theyre all named in here. And he is being, you know, at this point held account by the judge on those. I think its important for our viewers to know very little on this front surprises sue craig, you and your colleagues. And i want you to remind us about what you did. When mimi was talking about the fact theres a Summary Judgment here, its not all that uncommon to get a Summary Judgment, the idea theres enough information for the judge to make a determination the facts on that side are not in dispute. The reason we know the facts is on your reporting. You dont like to brag, but can you tell us about that work you and your colleagues did that brought this to the fore . Sure, its an interesting issue. We in 2018 wrote a story our colleagues, we spent 18 or so months looking at it. It started as a simple thing just looking at the wealth donald trump had inherited from his father. Donald trump core when he ran for president is he didnt inherit a lot, he was a selfmade businessman, and that made him singularly qualified to run the country. And we just wanted to look at that claim, and we found out not only donald trump had hundreds of millions of dollars from his father, fred, but that part of that was enhanced through tax fraud. And in that story one of the things we found early on in this and Family Members including donald when they went to value assets, we saw patterns. One was that when they went to the irs and they had something the tax on it the value would go low and other times we would see high valuations when it would benefit them on the other side. So this is a pattern weve seen for a long time. And Michael Cohen raised it when he testified before congress and brought up the statements of Financial Condition and talked about how they would be submitted to banks as part of, you know, getting as part of trying to secure a loan. And those Financial Statements have become, you know, at the heart of this case that the Attorney General brought. And the pattern that donald trump has done this year after year, you know, donald trump his argument in this is that first of all nobody believes these Financial Statements, we submitted them, but the banks do their own due diligence, and secondly that they have so many disclaimers on them it renders them meaningless, and they were going on about that in court on friday, and the judge finally said its not okay. This is why were here. Its the rule in new york that you cant submit false business statements. So thats sort of where it kind of comes full circle, but we spent a lot of time on that story. How long was that story . It was im sort of shy to say but it was 11,000 words. Was that the longest story the New York Times ever published in. Ive heard that. I dont want to take that fully to the bank but it was a long story. It looked at the packed shenanigans he engaged him to enhance the fortune, things that fell into outright fraud. You made a reference to Michael Cohen talking about this in 2019. Lets just listen to that together. Can you explain why you had these Financial Statements and what you used them for . So these Financial Statements were used by me for two purposes. One was discussing with media whether it was forbes or other magazines to demonstrate mr. Trumps significant net worth. That was one function. Another was when we were dealing later on with Insurance Companies, we would provide them with these copies so that they would understand that the premium, which is based sometimes upon the individuals capabilities to pay would be reduced. And all of this was done at the president s direction and with his knowledge . Yes. Because whatever the numbers would come back to be, we would immediately report it back. And did this information provided to us inflate the president s assets . I believe these numbers are inflated. I believe these numbers are inflated. That, susanne, is a conclusion the judge here seems to have come to today. The judge has said that this was fraud. Right. I mean its im still a bit shocked this has i did think we would end up in a courtroom and this would take months to sort of go through. And this is now now were going to move i think probably more quickly through it. But i want to stress i think donald trump is still it looks on thursday the Appellate Court could have a delay but this is certainly its devastating to them. Susanne, standby, keep reading. David jolly has joined us as well, mimi rocah and Glenn Kirschner are with us. David, this speaks very directly to the donald trump that the world knew before donald trump became president , right . The apprentice, the selfmade billionaire. What susanne and her colleagues wrote a few years ago showed the emperor has no clothes. This is actually going to cost more money, so this one will probably matter to him. But hes past that. His believers will still probably tell you this is witch hunt. Sure. Lets start the conversation in the real world, which is this a case that cuts at the core who donald trump is. As much as weve been following the criminal allegations and indictments against donald trump, this is a civil case brought by the state of new york saying donald trump engaged in civil fraud, that part of who he is as a result of fraud, that donald trump himself is a fraud. And what the judge said today is youre right, letitia james, donald trump is a fraud. Donald trump is, his sons are, and they used his family trust and they used his businesses to commit fraud. That cuts at who donald trump is. When he flew his helicopter into the Iowa State Fair to run for president and said look at me, im a billionaire whos for the workingman, guess what, he made his money as a fraud. And so i think the fascinating thing here is the fact that the immediate ruling that the businesses and entities of donald trump and his family move into the receivership for disallusion in the next ten days obviously theres more to litigate here. Mimi and others would know best about that, but this ruling today as much as were chasing the criminality of donald trump, this cuts at who he is and who he has suggested he is. It is something. Mimi, is there anything about new york thats highly unusual in terms of the bar, the standard for this judge to have made this ruling . Or is this pretty clear there was a lot of evidence and the judge said ive got enough evidence to come down with something . No, i mean nothing that would make it easier for a judge to say Summary Judgment. Summary judgment is a pretty Uniform Standard whether its state, federal, wherever you are. So i think this is the judge clearly saying there is no question of fact here. And usually as weve said thats unusual. Usually theres a question of fact, or if theres not it goes in favor of the defendant. Here hes saying theres no question of fact and holding it against the defendant, so its unusual. Its a strong statement by this judge. Sasanne was saying for donald trump theres often not an end to the road or 12 steps when the rest of us think theres the end of the road. Theres still a case that will go forward on six unresolved issues. We dont have anything on penalties or fines and i guess you can appeal a Summary Judgment. Yes, everything can be apeeled. Theyll wait until probably the trial on the litigated the facts to be litigated and then the judge will issue a final ruling with as yowl say penalties, fines, whatever, other remedies although he already seems to have put one out there in terms of the disillusion. But, yes, everything can be appealed. If history is a pattern it will be appeal. I think thats an important point. Glenn, i want to read this out again. This is the digest version, so i want to let everyone in the audience know were still working through this. But it does say within ten days the parties are directed to recommend three potential receivers to recognize the disallusion of those in the ruling. As you said the honorable Barbara Jones will continue to be the independent monitor of the Trump Organization. We could today be watching the end of the Trump Organization. But more importantly this is the case that some people forget about, one thats not mentioned as frequently. Its a side thing because to david jollys point it is not criminal, but i think to david jollys point this one may be more about everything that donald trump is than any of the other ones because this is about who he has been for a long time. When Susanne Craig and her colleagues were writing about this they were talking about all the money Donald Trumps father gave him in all his bad Business Practices over the decades. I wish i could have said it as well as david jolly said. This is ruling by a judge privy all the Financial Information of all the trump org and all his llcs that were part of this litigation, and he is ruling that essentially these llcs must be dissolved because of the persistent fraud by trump and his sons and the others who are named in this order. As david said this is sort of an Exclamation Point on the reality that donald trump is a fraud. Now, his Civil Empire May be falling and he has it could be his Liberty Interest is next, but as of right now this is pretty dramatic. And the one thing i dont think we mention, ali, is in the conclusion the judge also imposes Money Sanctions against a whole long list of trump attorneys. Now, the sanctions some might say are modest, 7,500 each. But again sanctioning a lawyer by a judge, its a pretty dramatic thing. And ill tell you, attorneys who care about their reputation will sort of, you know, hide themselves away in shame. But i mean this is such an across the board loss for donald trump, for his lawyers, for his Family Members, for his chief financial officer, Allen Weisselberg that im sure there will be appeals as mimi said, but its hard to see how this doesnt spell the end of donald trump the businessman in new york. Mimi, lets talk about the Attorney General tish james. There was another civil case and that was the E Jean Carroll case, but he focuses a lot on his criminal prosecutors, alvin bragg, fani willis, and jack smith. Hes endlessly calling them names. He has always accused tish james of existing to bring him down, and tish james has never shied away from the limelight on the issue. She said her job as elected Attorney General is to pursue justice for new yorkers. This is a big deal for tish james. She staked a lot on this. Absolutely. This was a real feather in her path, but i will say, you know, first of all while she brought the case and the evidence to this judge, the judge is the one who made the ruling. Donald trump knowing him will probably attack the judge as well, but what we have here now is we have prosecutors at the state level, federal level, special prosecutors, criminal, civil. We have juries in the e. Jean carroll case. We have judges in various cases especially in this one. He has tried to delegitimize all these institutions and all these prosecutors, and he started it back in 2015, right, when he was running. The fbi, the doj, and he does this he started this and he has been successful at it because these were all institutions and people that could hold him accountable in some way. If the facts were there and the evidence was there. And she has carried that through now in a civil case which is not easy to do, and im sure he will attack her, but i hope that people can see it as part of the pattern that it is that started over five years ago gaegs more than that, right, it started the minute he was elected because this is not a person who has led his life sort of by the book, lets say, and so to start early and often delegitimizing the people and institutions that can hold you accountable is really his best chance at success. And its kind of worked. Thats the terrifying part. So you have to be susanne, craig, and tish james, i do recommend for whatever people are doing they set aside whatever it takes to read 11,000 words and go back to your article. Because with everything the judge will talk about now and everything in the case will be referred to that was discovered in your colleagues remarkable coverage on that. Susanne, youre thoughts on this. I go back to the journey that my colleagues and particularly Russ Buttener in 2015 when he first ran for president he promised hed release his tax returns and he refused to for years, and that set us on a journey at the time to learn more about his finances, and he fought so hard to hide those from public view because they held the information that he is not the businessman that hes claimed. Its at the heart of this case and sort of the heart of him thats kind of the original lie almost within him that he has lied repeatedly about his business performance. And then we had a tv show where it burngsed that false image. And when we finally in 2020 we got decades of his personal and Corporate Tax information and it laid bare barely any of his businesses made money. And not did he make money, he plows more money into them to keep them going. The judge one of the things they said is that hes living in a the entire defense of donald trump in this case is that its a Fantasy World and not the real world. And its sort of i dont know maybe a good summary of the whole thing, but it goes back to how many years we worked to uncover the issue about his finances. Its an important issue when you think about somebody as president in Public Office or running for Public Office, you want to know about the pressures on them. And he not so hard not necessarily to hide that but just the fact hes a hard businessman. Im going to leave you with this from the judges Summary Judgment. Its an order that any certificates filed under and by virtue of gbl 130 by any of the entity defendants or any other entity controlled by donald trump, donald trump jr. , eric trump, Allen Weisselberg are canceled and it is further ordered within ten days of this order the parties are to recommend the names of no more than three potential independent receivers to manage the disallusion of the canceled llcs. Donald trumps businesses have been canceled by a judge in new york. When we return a makeorbreak moment for the Republican Party. Thats how former white house aide Cassidy Hutchinson is describing this moment as she urges her former boss mark meadows to testify under oath. Well get to that next. Also ahead the president of the United Auto Workers will be our guest. Shawn fain will talk about the significance of President Biden joining them on the picket line today. And the importance of asking the candidates whether they support Donald Trumps open talk of fascism and executing the chairman of the joint chiefs. Weve got a lot of news. Dont go anywhere. Ah, these bills are crazy. She has no idea shes sitting on a goldmine. Well she doesnt know that if she owns a Life Insurance policy of 100,000 or more she can sell all or part of it to coventry for cash. Even a term policy. Even a term policy . Even a term policy find out if youre sitting on a goldmine. Call Coventry Direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect. Com. They slept on me for 15 years. The things i saw, the things i collected. I gained 30 pounds in dust, pollen, dander. They had two kids, two cats, and a ferret. All that time, they could have protected me, and themselves, with the number one selling allerease mattress protector. It wouldve been soft, comfortable, and blocked 99. 9 of dust, dirt, and allergens. Allerease, protect your mattress for a clean, healthy nights sleep. Zipping Zipper ooh, queen likes. What i will say is i hope that mark is now doing the right thing. What i define as the right thing, which is coming forth and honoring your oath to protect your country, not your president. Coming forward and doing the right thing to protect your country, not your president. Do the right thing, simple but powerful message coming from Cassidy Hutchinson, the bombshell witness from the january 6th committees public hearings to her former boss, mark meadows. Meadows, unlike his former aide, did not demonstrate the courage to come forward and tell his story. He instead hid from the Congressional Panel which voted to hold him in Contempt Of Congress now with four indictments issued against donald trump and one against the former Chief Of Staff himself, well see if meadows has taken Cassidy Hutchinsons advice. Shes spoken out with the new book telling her full side of story and how the future of the Republican Party is hanging in the balance. This next election cycle, its in my opinion is the makeorbreak moment for the Republican Party. Now is the time if these politicians, these men and some women that are currently in Congress Want to make the break and want to take the stand, they have to do it now. Were talking about a man who at the very essence of his being almost destroyed democracy in one day, and he wants to do it again. He wants to run for president to do it again. Hes been indicted four times since january 6th. I would not have a clear consshns and be able to sleep at night if i were a republican in congress that supported donald trump. And, you know, i think that if theyre not willing to split that. Cassidy hutchinson will be nicolles guest on this program tomorrow in studio. Were back with mimi rocah, david jolly, and Glenn Kirschner. One of the things about the interview, Cassidy Hutchinson has not disavowed the Republican Party, not left the Republican Party. She definitely believes the Republican Party she thinks she believe belongs to is not the one we see on tv represented in congress. Yeah, Cassidy Hutchinson has been heroic and brave and is due a lot of credit for standing up to people that few people have been willing to stand up to, so shes do a lot of grace, and what im about to say has not taken away from her. Shes on her own journey that started recently. The existential race started in 2016 and the opportunity to speak up for donald trump was in 2017 and 2018 and 2019 and 2020 an 22. And cassidy is exactly right the republican race is a defining part of the Republican Party. And having taken the Journey Cassidy has taken as others have, there is an evolution to it. You think you can stay within the party and fix it and you can win that battle within the party. You resign yourself to the loss but you think ill sit here until it corrects itself, and then you realize it never will. Cassidy hutchpson will end up where i ended up, where adam kissenger, liz cheney, and others have ended up. Its a journey. God bless her for being on it, but its a journey that started in 16 and the opportunity to stop donald trump was then not now. Youre a young guy for politics and shes much younger than we are. Shes incredibly brave. But, in fact, could it be influential that young people or people in america look at this young woman and say, all right, youve got guts . I would like to think so. I would like the think Cassidy Hutchinson is the future leader of the Republican Party. When you get to nikki haley and others thats just not where the party is. That party is dead, and theres a cultural identity to your political affiliation, and i think thats what some people are clinging to, but this notion theres somehow an ideology left in todays gop, that verdict was rendered a long time ago. Glenn kirschner, david jolly said Cassidy Hutchinson is brave. And i think anyone who watches these interviews will come to that conclusion, but bravery is not a simple matter when it comes to donald trump and his machine. This is beyond the im being courageous. Cas odd hutchpson has subjected herself to potential harm. Courage and patriotism you would think that those would govern, that those would control those of us who choose public service. And i only wish that the mike pences and the mark meadows of this sort of sad chapter in our nations history had one one thousandth of the courage and patriotism of someone like Cassidy Hutchinson. She really did more troubling evidence to the table in her interview with rachel about mark meadows behavior. Mark meadows at this point is indicted in georgia and of course hes lost the battle. Hes appealing but hes lost the battle to have his case transferred from Georgia State court to federal court. We dont know if he will be indicted some time in the future in connection with jack smiths investigation of all crimes january 6th, but, you know, it seems that at some Point Mark Meadows has to take a long hard look at himself and say, well, even if im not courageous, not patriotic, maybe i should cut my losses and try to make right what ive done so very wrong up to this point and negotiate himself a Cooperation Agreement with jack smith if he hasnt already and try to resolve the case in georgia and actually help d. A. Willis prosecute the other wrongdoers including the one bigger criminal fish, and that is donald trump. But i will have to say i dont hold out much hope that mark meadows will choose that path because hes on the path thats brought in to where he is at this moment in his life. Cassidy hutchinson, mimi, her stuff was quite colorful. Its relevant because mark meadows is an indicted coconspirator in the georgia case, andmark meadows would like to because he tried to get that case removed wanted everybody to think what he was doing was in service of had presidency as opposed to donald trump for president. Theres a quote from Cassidy Hutchinsons book enough in which mark meadows wife was complaining about the smell of smoke on his suits. This one is interesting. The next is on packing and off boarding routines. Debbie, marks wife helped pack his blaupgings. As she made a time trip to the car she made one last request. Cassidy, eliza, please dont light that fireplace anymore. Mark doesnt need to burn anything else. All of his suits smell like a bonfire and i cant keep up with the drycleaning, end quote. Mark rolled his eyes when he was informed his fireplace was no longer to be used. This is the Chief Of Staff to the then former president the United States and he was burning things in his documents at the white house. It is from a scene out of a movie probably a bad movie, but, you know, it also is not at all unbelievable. In fact, its very believable given many of the things that weve heard and know about this i dont even want to say administration, but these people in the oval office. And mark meadows lost that motion to move to federal court because just because you do something in the oval office doesnt mean youre doing it as part of your role as Chief Of Staff. I cant imagine the National Archives after everything weve heard about thinks you can burn documents in the white house. Depending what the documents were could be obstruction of justice, there are all sorts of reasons why it could be wrong to criminal. One thing i just want to say about Cassidy Hutchinson is, you know, there seems of course theres going to be and there already is this response to her book of, well, shes just making stuff up. Why didnt she say it sooner or just to sell a book . But, first of all some 06 of the things she says, for example, Rudy Giuliani basically sexually assaulting her, those are things that over time we know take time for people to come forward with. They often dont also where was she going to say it, who was going to listen to them . Right now she has the opportunity and vehicle for saying it. But also even if she held onto all of this information to put it in a book because it would help sell the book, that doesnt make it untrue. I mean that is going to have to be their response is its untrue, she made it up to put in a book. But she may have waited to put it in a book once she became this hero who came forward on january 6th. That doesnt mean its untrue just because she put it in a book. And i think theyre going to have problems with how much what she says, which is very damaging in many different ways to trump, to giuliani, to meadows, rings true with everything we know about that in the court of Public Opinion. By the way, if one reads the indictments, theres a lot of stuff in here that cas odd hutchinson wasnt involved in the writing of any of these indictments, and yet these mobtype stories that seem unbelievable that might be true have similarities in jack smiths indictment and fani willis. Mayor giuliani responded to that allegation in the book. His spokesperson saying is it fair to ask Cassidy Hutchinson why shes just now coming out with these allegations just two years ago as part of the upcoming Marketing Campaign for her book release. Those things can be separate, right . Yes. Rudy giuliani was americas mayor. Yes. I mean thats like saying there never was a priest who was convicted of Sexual Assault or sexual abuse. Good people do bad things. People who have done good things in their life do bad things and do things that are wrong. But its just the reflective Talking Point that came out as soon as that allegation was made known, the fact that he came right out and immediately its, oh, she must be making it up when in fact we know and i can definitively say this as a prosecutor over 20 years that Sexual Assault, sexual harassment, theres a reason why the statute of limitations on those crimes both civilly and criminally have been extended because we now recognize those take time for people to come forward. So i just dont think that whyd she wait 2 1 2 years. I thought we relitigated that two years ago. Mimi, thanks for everything today and coming and jumping in a little earlier because when that news came down i had no idea what any of that meant. Glenn kirschner, i dont even know why you agree to be on tv with me anymore when you hear its me. I ask you to opine on things you havent read yet, so thanks a million for that. David jolly, i havent squeezed all the juice out of you that i can. Stick around for a few minutes. When we return well return to the United Auto Workers union. Shawn fain is our guest after a very short break. R guest after very short break nicole my daughter, natalie, she is the youngest of my five children, and she has neuroblastoma. She really didnt have any symptoms until one day she just stopped using her arm. Andrew by the time we realized that she was sick, it had grown into about a softball sized tumor and spread through her bone marrow, her lymph nodes. So its a very fast, aggressive cancer. Nicole so we came to st. Jude and learned how much hope there was and learned how much they could do for natalie here. [soft horn music playing] narrator you can join the battle to save lives by supporting st. Jude childrens research hospital. Families never receive a bill from st. Jude for treatment, travel, housing, or food so they can focus on helping their child live. Andrew money wasnt even an issue. We just did the best treatment for natalie. Nicole its the donors who have already taken on that burden on their backs and said, all right, weve got this. Were going to pay this bill and make sure this family is taken care of. I can say, for sure, that that money is being put to incredible use. And our family is forever grateful for donations, big and small, because its completely changed our lives and its given us a second chance. Narrator when you call or go online with your credit or debit card right now, well send you this st. Jude tshirt you can wear to show your support to help st. Jude save the lives of these children. Nicole we thought we were losing our daughter. And then when we came to st. Jude, everything changed. Andrew hope changes everything. Narrator theres still so much more that needs to be done. And st. Jude wont stop until no child dies from cancer. Become a partner in hope today. [soft piano music playing] thats how were going to defeat these people, how were going to defeat corporate greed is by standing together. This is a historic moment, first time in our countrys history that a sitting usa president has stood on the picket line. President Joe Biden Today joined the picket line for striking uaw workers in wayne county, michigan, an unprecedented show of support by a sitting president for labor rights. Bidens stop tomorrow highlights the importance of a mission with the prez potential race. Workers of unions over 20 states have walked out after unsuccessful negotiations with three of the largest auto makers in america and demanding increases in wages. Joining us is shawn fain. Mr. Fain, thank you for being with us. Ive looked forward to the chance to talk to you. Where are you in negotiations with the auto makers right now . Hey, thanks for having us. You know, were trying to get agreements. Weve been at the table every day as we have been for the last roughly ten weeks, and this all goes back to one thing, corporate greed. And its a shame that these companies chose to sit around for several weeks and not address our members concerns and wait until the last minute. But theres only one reason were on strike right now and its because these Companies Put themselves in that position. Were working hard. The Negotiating Teams are working hard, the Vice President s are working hard, our teams working hard to try to address our members demands and our needs. And its up to companies. And if things continue to regross and not move forward, we will be taking more action. Normally sometimes on big strikes like this, meaningful strikes that affect the economy potentially lots of workers, lots of people, administrations do get involved but usually at the negotiating table. Very unusual for a president to go to the picket line. What do you think about that and do you think it has any influence on the outcome . I think its a historic day just from the fact the president chose to come and stand up with workers. And, you know, this was about our members. I mean i dont want to sidestep what this is all about. I mean the members, you know, being out there standing up for their future and for a Better Future its what brought the president here. And its a great testament to see him come here, and i think his comments were very wellreceived. Him recognizing the sacrifices our members make, you know, he was there back in the Great Recession and he recounted, you know, the sacrifices our members make and also how our members have not kept up since then and have not been paid back when they generated all these great profits for the companies. It was definitely good to see. You have come up with a pay increase demand that the auto workers have the Auto Companies have said is outsized. Youve done this through math, through the concessions youve made, cost of living adjustments, inflation. And then youve also talked about what the ceos of the companies have made and increases theyve had. Today when the president was there a reporter asked President Biden if he supported the unions demand the reporter i believe asked for a 40 wage increase over four years. Its very hard to make sense of what was actually happening because a number of your members there said yes. And the president responded and its unclear what he said. The white house subsequently said the president said something like, yes, i think they should be able to bargain for that. Whats your understanding of what the president said in response to your demands for 36 wage increases . I dont know what he said. I didnt hear that, but the thing to me is this is about the companies and corporate greed. Lets talk about those facts again. A quarter of a trillion dollars in profits over the last decade the big three have made, those profits are generated by the work on the backs of our members. 21 billion in the First Six Months this year alone. The price of vehicles went up 35 over the last four years. Ceo pay went up 45 over the last four years. Our worker pay went up 6 . And the cost of labor that goes into making these vehicles is around 4 to 5 . Labor is not the problem. And what were asking for is our fair share of what we deserve. And we have fallen further and further behind over the years, so im not sure what the president said, but i do know this, this is on the corporations, and they own this. I guess, okay, fair enough you dont know what the president said. But i guess its important for you to know what he believes or what the American People believe. That support for unions has been going up in the last several months. And unusually sometimes theres support for unions, but when there are actually strikes, the public support diminishes a little bit. But thats not been the case with the writers guild, with sagaftra, with the teamster strike that didnt happen with ups and with your support, the public strike supports are strong at this point. Yes, and i believe its not just our fight. This is a working class issue. It doesnt matter if youre a uaw member, if youre the member of another union, or if youre not a member of a union at all. This is about economic and social justice for the entire working class, and thats the issue here. This country in the last 40 years i mean, you know, some of the pundits want to talk about this being class warfare, that were asking for our fair share. Class warfare has been going on in this country for the last 40 years. The billionaire class and corporate class have been taking all the profits and the workers are being left with the scraps. And theyre scraping to get by pay teak which paycheck. Whether youre union or not, we can all identify what thats like. So i believe the majority of america gets it and theyre fed up with living this way. Its time we turn this around. Thats what this is battle is all about and i think everyone understands that and we share in that. Shawn, one of the arguments you make with the companies when you go in there and they say this is outsized, we need to do something and youre offering some increasesut not what youre asking for, squaz we put up on the screen and put up again the increases the ceos of those companies have had. These are over slightly different te periods. But 29 million, 21 million jim farley at ford. What do you say when the Companies Say youre able to give your ceos bonuses. In fact the gm said most of this is not my salary, its a performance bonus. Dont you have the same argument back to them give us a performance bonus. I dont think they care. This is about corporate greed, the bottom line, and its about taking anything john stewart said it best a few months back in the bad times the Companies Want to socialize their losses, its all pot on the backs of the workers, we pay for it. But in the good time and high profits they want to keep it all, its all theirs and they want to privatize it. No one is worth 29 million a year. I dont know how someone makes that kind of money. A worker on the line would have to make 400 years to make what one of these ceos makes in a year. There is something severely wrong with this system if were saying thats okay. Its not okay. No one is worth that much money. I dont begrudge anyone for doing well, but they shouldnt have to shawn fain, thanks for your time today. I know you were busy in actual negotiations with the company. I know in between talking to people on tv youre actually trying to negotiate a great contract. And we appreciate you being with us. When we return the disgraced former president has embraced authoritarian tactics but hes pretty open about it. We want to know what his gop rivals should dee about it during tomorrow nights debate. T during tomorrow nights debate im gonna love you forever cmon, bear. You dont. You dont have to worry. Be by your side. Ill be there. With my arms wrapped around. This is Spring Semester at fairfieldsuisun unified. They switched to google tools for education because theres never been a reported Ransomware Attack on a chromebook. Now theyre focused on learning knowing that their data is secure. love you. Have a good day, behave yourself. Like she goes to work at three in the afternoon and sometimes gets off at midnight. She works a lot, a whole lot. We dont get to eat in the early morning. We just wait till we get to the school. So, yeah. Right now here in america, millions of kids like victoria and andre live with hunger, and the need to help them has never been greater. When you join your friends, neighbors and me to support no kid hungry, youll help hungry kids get the food they need. If we want to take care of our children, then we have to feed them. Your gift of just 0. 63 a day, only 19 a month at helpnokidhungry. Org right now will help provide healthy meals and hope. We want our children to grow and thrive and to just not have to worry and face themselves with the struggles that we endure. Nobody wants that for their children. Like if these programs didnt exist me and aj, we wouldnt probably get lunch at all. Please call or go online right now with your gift of just 19 a month. And when you use your credit card, youll receive this limited edition tshirt to show youre part of the team thats helping feed kids and change lives. If youre coming in hungry, theres no way you can listen to me teach, do this activity, work with this group. So starting their day with breakfast and ending their day with this big, beautiful snack is pretty incredible. Whether kids are learning at school or at home, your support will ensure they get the healthy meals they need to thrive. Because when you help feed kids, you feed their hopes, their dreams, and futures. Kids need you now more than ever. So please call this number right now to join me in helping hungry kids or go online to helpnokidhungry. Org and help feed hungry kids today. Tomorrow night, the republican primary candidates will take the stage for their second debate. This time around, seven republicans have qualified, and once again, the disgraced ex president current kbop gop frontrunner by a mile will be skipping it. The come burn his nearly daily escalation about violent rhetoric, this time about treason and that mark milley joins the Death Penalty. Joining me now, molly and john fast. Molly, two conversations we have had in one day. But these are big issues. David and i were just talking about this. Its all offhand until its not. Right, hes talk about the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff facing the Death Penalty, and hes talk about comcast, the Parent Company of nbc, being treasonous. Again, funny till its not. Yeah, and i think very serious stuff. And i do wonder why were not seeing more straight reporters on the news site going to those republican candidates and asking them, do they support execution for general milley, which is a pretty insane thing to say. Do they support trying to shut down comcast . These people should go on the record. While people are chasing down democrats to see if they support the resignation of menendez, perhaps they should be chasing down republicans to ask them if they support some of trumps crazy claims. Its kind of wild. The menendez storys got a lot of interesting stuff to it. We dont think this probably should be the leadoff question. Its not going to be. Maybe it will. Maybe theyll surprise us. Should be, are you guys okay with this . I think we know the answer that everyone on that stage and republicans have done more to embrace Donald Trumps escalation of authoritarianism and violence than they have to stop it. We have to accept were in a dangerous moment. We had january 6th. There was an opportunity for republicans to say, were done, and they didnt. They all said, were going to continue to support donald trump. We had our january 6th, and we didnt stop it. Republicans did not stop it. So to expect that they will now, were fooling ourselves. Were in a dangerous moment, and it could have serious consequences. Do you think does donald trump, is anything going to stop him from talking this way . No, and i worry if he gets back in office. I worry about our safety. I worry about the safety of the country. A worry about the freedom of people who are otherwise exercising freedom of speech in politics. I worry about america under donald trump. Its very dangerous. David and molly jong fast. Thanks to both of you for being with us. Quick break for us. Well be right back. Quick break for us well be right back. We really dont want people to think of feeding food like ours is spoiling their dogs. Good, real food is simple. It looks like food, it smells like food, its what dogs are supposed to be eating. No living being should ever eat processed food for every single meal of their life. Its amazing to me how many people write in about their dogs changing for the better. The farmers dog is just our way to help people take care of them. When i first learned about my dupuytrens contracture, my physician referred me to a hand specialist. And im glad he did, because when i took the tabletop test, i couldnt lay my hand flat anymore. The first hand specialist i saw only offered surgery. So, i went to a second hand specialist who also offered nonsurgical options which felt more right for me. So, what id say to other people with dupuytrens contracture is this dont wait find a hand specialist trained in nonsurgical options, today. I found mine at findahandspecialist. Com. Thank you for spending this very busy tuesday afternoon with us. Nicolle will be back tomorrow. The beat with ari melber begins right now. This is your beat, man. Ari, i have been struggling through this last hour. Im glad we have an expert here now who can tell us about what all the developments of the last couple hours mean. We were generously equipped and extra prepared. Im reading it. I had you on. You had the great the New York Times report. You pointed out, blushing that 11,000 words is lengthy. Were all doing it together. Good to see you, sir. This, have a great show. Appreciate it. Welcome to the beat. As ali velshi