there has only been, listen to this, one such whale killed off the coast of south carolina in the last 50 year. on the other hand, the windmills are causing whales to die in numbers never seen before. nobody does anything about that. they're washing up on shore. i saw it this weekend, three came up. they wouldn't -- you wouldn't see it once a year. now, they're coming up on a weekly basis. the windmills are driving them crazy. they're driving -- they're driving the whales, i think, a little batty. they're washing up on shore at levels never seen before. they want to stop your boats. one in 50 years, can you imagine that? >> donald trump yesterday in south carolina continuing his weird war against windmills. we'll have more from his rally yesterday, including another moment where he seemed to be confused about his opponent. this is at least the second time in a week. plus, trump's former defense secretary is defending outgoing joint chiefs of staff mark milley after the former president suggested general milley was a traitor. also ahead on "morning joe," president joe biden is expected to make history today as the first sitting president to join a picket line when he visits auto workers in michigan. we'll have his latest comments about the strike and where negotiations stand right now. meanwhile, on capitol hill, the clock is ticking. congress is divided on how to avoid a government shutdown before saturday's deadline. today, the house and senate are expected to take two different paths on a funding solution. can they get it together? good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, september 26th. along with joe, willie and me, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr. former white house director of communications to president obama, jennifer palmieri. she's the co-host of the new msnbc podcast, "how to win 2024." also with us this morning, rogers chair and the american presidency at vanderbilt university, jon meacham joins us now. willie, we have a lot to talk about, but we have the former president who seems to be getting a little bit, i don't know, confused sometimes about who he's talking about, what era we're in, whether we have fought world war i or world war ii or we're headed into world war iii. seems he's a little, i don't know, off center. >> the whales and the windmills, that was even, for him, a real tour de force. we can talk more about that. donald trump is back on the campaign trail. he was in south carolina, 400 people in summerville. his first event in the state since july. in a speech that lasted 40 minutes, trump talked about the 2016 presidential race and appeared to confuse his then opponent, jeb bush, with former president george w. bush. >> you know, the beauty was, when i came here, everyone thought bush was going to win. then they found trump was up by 50 points. everyone said, what is going on right here? they thought bush because bush was is military person, great. he got us into the -- he got us into the middle east. how did that work out, right? >> jonathan lemire, he was talking, of course, about george w. bush, but conflated him with jeb bush, who was the governor of florida in march of 2003, when the united states went into iraq. for the talk of joe biden's problems and his age and everything else, if you sit and watch not just those clips, but the 40 minutes in south carolina, some red flags there. >> i mean, trump is right about the windmills and the whales. >> you're on board with that? >> fact check true on that. no, you're right, first, there's a lot of discussion about president biden's age and whether or not he seems to be slipping at all, whether he is still up for the job. there was a moment last week where eyebrows were raised. at a fundraiser the president had in new york city, he told the same story twice, seemingly not remembering he'd told it the first time. that said, president biden has been able to do the job, and his record speaks for itself. aides are quick to point that out. we've been giving donald trump a pass so much because he's always sort of, frankly, spoken like a crazy person many times. if you read the transcripts of his speeches, they're very hard to follow. he is all over the place, it is tough to pin down what he actually means. these red flags, these verbal missteps, only picked up in the last weeks. the windmills and whales are nuts. the world war ii reference last week. we had this one confusing the bushes. the list goes on and on and on. one does wonder, as much as polls suggest voters don't care as much about trump's age than biden's, he is only three years younger than president biden. if biden is going to be questioned about his fitness for the job, voters should take the same look at trump, who has been all over the place and seems to be, and social media posts show this, too, under increased pressure due to the legal cases. >> that is the real point, joe. >> stress. >> the whale thing was bizarre. he said the windmills are driving whales crazy, so they're washing themselves up on shore. >> projecting again. >> there we go. >> the point is, this is a man not only who is advancing in years, clearly, as you watch those performances, but he's got a lot on his mind, having nothing to do with whales or jeb bush or obama or world war ii. >> i mean, he's projecting. he usually projects himself onto people he's running against. now, he's going out and projecting himself on whales. yes, donald, it's the whales who are crazy right now. the whales. but think about this. it goes back to what we said yesterday, which is, joe biden is sitting there playing by marquess of queensberry rules, going, "the gdp is going to rise by 2.49." i mean, that's how i talk, okay? i'm not running for anything. he needs to do better, all right? he needs to start hitting donald trump back. there's a reason why those polls are looking the way they are. they all talk about biden being too old. biden needs to start talking about trump being too old. listen, this is not hard to do. he doesn't have to wait for the writers to get off the picket lines to write his material. everybody, this is what donald trump thinks and what he's thought over the last two weeks. that he ran a primary contest against george w. bush in 2016. and he beat him, even though george w. bush had gotten us into the middle east. and then he thinks, alternatively, that he ran the general election in 2016 against barack obama. and he said last week, nobody thought we could beat barack obama, but we did. he stumbled around with obama's name, and then he went on to say he beat -- he was going to beat -- oh, no, that he beat barack obama in 2020, as well. then, of course, on to the part about where joe biden was going to get us into world war ii in 2024. the reason why those numbers are higher and the reason why people are comparing hunter biden's laptop to stealing nuclear secrets is because the republicans have been hammering joe biden over this nonstop. the white house considered itself above the fray. this is, like, mike dukakis in 1988, using his push lawn mower while george h.w. bush was going around talking about how polluted boston harbor was, talking about -- you know, going from one flag factory to another flag factory. jon meacham, by the time it was over, right, and you had michael dukakis going, i'm above this. i'm not going to respond to that. i mean, you've written 41's biography. you know. by the time dukakis responded to the attacks, his 20-point lead was evaporated. now, you have the biden people sitting back talking bidenomics while his son is being trashed and while his age is being trashed. here, i just want to repeat for you because i know you're a historian, and i'm sure you never knew this. donald trump says he ran against george w. bush in the primary and beat him. 2016, ran against barack obama in the general election. nobody thought he could beat him, but he beat him. ran against barack obama in 2020 and beat him, no matter what the press and the pundits say. this is a guy who is terribly confused. again, we don't hear that so much because the biden campaign is playing by marquess of queensberry rules. >> i'll say one thing. one of the great primary races ever would have been george w. bush versus donald trump. that would have been a cage match. >> oh. >> can you imagine? >> excuse me for cutting you off, that would have been over in five minutes. donald trump would have started talking, and george w. bush would have looked at him and gone, "i'm supposed to be the one who is dumb." he would have gutted him. george w. bush would have finished donald trump's campaign in five minutes, but go ahead. >> i think that, too. i think george w. bush is the one republican who could have undercut this populism. he worried about the populism. he talks about how what happened late in his administration helped create the conditions for this. he's clear eyed about it. but, look, i think the thing that worries me the most is not what trump says when he is confused, but what he says when he's not. there's this series of incredibly sulfurous, unconstitutional, anti-democratic assertions that he's making about what he wants to do if, in fact, he returns to power, which is an entirely plausible possibility. and so the focus, it seems to me, of all of us, the task of citizenship should be, what is he saying? what does he want to do? and we're talking about somebody, and i just -- we can't say this enough, right? it's like the daily office. it's like morning prayer. we should just always say this. there was a mob attacking the capitol of the united states, something that did not happen in 1860/'61. but it happened in 2021. because of this bizarre and, yet, all-too-real political power and reach that donald trump has. and we can wish it away, but that won't make any difference at all. i had a seventh grade history teacher who said ifs, ands and buts were candy were nuts, we could all have a merry christmas. we can say, "but, but, but," but it doesn't matter. this is a constitutional, real, unfolding crisis. it's tiring. i mean, who wants to wake up and think about donald trump more, except for donald trump, of course? >> well, jon, if i can interrupt you -- >> this is what we've got. this is our task. >> i want to talk a couple specifics with you, jon. first of all, he is talking about the execution of mark milley, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. said he would have been executed simply because mark milley wasn't going along with his plan to overthrow the government. yesterday, he ranted that he was going to take over nbc and msnbc if he won e 2024 election. he was ranting on his social media post, claimed the netwo are the enemy of the people. this is, of course -- >> -- a phrase that stan died. then khrushcheaid it was a dangerous political -- in the soviet union, a dangero political phrase, he outled the use of it. he said that nbc and msnbc should be investigated for country-threatening treason. here we go, jon. in two days, he threatens -- says the chairman of the joint chiefs probably should be executed, and then he says the news network that is moegs most critical of him should be taken off the air. this is not a reach. i do talk about nazi germany, and i do it without concerns whatsoever. if people can't start drawing the parallels, well, you're just stupid or have your head in the sand or you're one of them. but i'd rather look at orban and what is going on today in hungary. what he's done is systematic. he started with the public npr stations, took them over. they became voices and arms of the state. then he started going over the newspapers. he had -- basically, he regulated or taxed one independent newspaper after another independent newspaper out of existence. 100% of the newspapers there are basically state-run, state-owned, through these third-party supporters, these industries. he's done it with broadcast, too. 80% are basically orban's deal. he's got almost complete control over the news media. they send out the message for them to follow, and they all follow it. there is no freedom of speech in hungary. so do i think that donald trump is going to be allowed to line people up against the wall and shoot them? no. he'd like to. i've known him a long time, and we can see this, he'd like to. he's not going to be allowed to. but if he says, i'm going to take the fec, bring it to the white house, and i'll decide who is going to be on tv and who is not -- >> believe him. >> -- that is something that republicans, 50% of americans are supporting him right now, despite the fact he steals nuclear secrets, steals war plans, and he says he is going to terminate the constitution. sure, they'll let him shut down tv stations. that's where we are. >> yeah. to terminate the constitution, that's the key phrase here, right? that's what he says he wants to do. then there are the folks who say that people like the two of us, all of us, you know, we take him too literally, not seriously. where do we start? a mob attacked the capitol of the united states to overturn a free and fair election. the president of the united states pressured officials in the various states to find him votes so that he would win. so that's not hyperbole, right? that's not cable news, liberal fury in the morning. it's just true. if you can't handle that, then the entire experiment is at risk. and the entire experiment is at risk, that may sound overly grand or dramatic. >> nope. >> but, as you were saying, it's just the case. and i don't think we do -- we do ourselves no favors whatsoever in pretending that these are not live -- use a fancy word -- illiberal, antidemocratic, unconstitutional forces that he, donald trump, embodies, promulgates. and this whole election, the constitution -- think about this, the constitution, if the numbers are even remotely true, is going to come down to a couple hundred thousand people in five states, right? that's where we are. and so, to some extent, the appeal has to be, if you are one of these folks in michigan, in pennsylvania, in arizona, if you're there, think about it. do you want to terminate the constitution? if you do, you better be sure your team is always going to be in power. because the point of law is that it protects you from me and me from you. the strong always become the weak. >> yup. and what's being used right now by trumpers could be used 20 years from now by people on the far left. >> yeah. >> or just by some crazed independent billionaire who decides to run for office. we need checks and balances today in the united states more than ever before, and donald trump wants to blow down the doors on every check and every balance. >> how many times do we need to learn? what does he need to say? how much farther does he need to go? >> i mean, you look at -- you know, if you believe the polls, half of americans still support him. i'd love to talk to him and figure out why they support him. they have no good answer. i'm sorry. joe biden is old, so i'll vote for the guy who says he'll terminate the constitution and execute the joint chief of staff and steal nuclear secrets and be accused of rape by a judge who said he raped a woman? i mean, paid illegal payoffs to a porn star, who stole war plans to invade iraq, who bragged to campaign members that he had classified material that he couldn't declassify, so he shouldn't be showing them but he showed them anyway? that's who people want? someone who is stealing nuclear secrets, someone who wants to terminate the constitution. well, that's where we are right now, willie. again, following up on what jon said, he talked about illiberal democracy and said that wasn't too much of a reach. no, again, going back to orban, as you know, hungary's leader, orban, after stripping power away from the press, after stripping power away from the judiciary, what did he say? he said, western democracy doesn't work. western democracy doesn't work. we are proud to be an illiberal democracy, and that's they are. that's where they keep going, and that's where donald trump will take the united states of america if elected. >> he's the leader that donald trump has explicitly touted. him, vladimir putin, kim jong-un with the love letters. he wishes he could be that kind of guy. eddie, to eecho what jon, mika and joe were saying, this isn't a game show, that this could never happen. he tried to do it while president. we know if he is elected again, it'll be easier for him to do a whole bunch of this stuff because there will be no general kelly, right, no general milley, no general mattis. there will be no people whose first principle is to protect the country, the constitution, and the democracy will be to serve this guy. when he talks about wanting to execute mark milley, when he talks about terminating the constitution, let's not forget, he asked his attorney general to arrest his opponent in october of 2020, joe biden before the election. these are things he fantasizes about, and it'll be easier for him to carry out if he is elected again. >> absolutely. the guardrails are gone. his rhetoric sets the stage to increase the intensity of our political season. it actually, i think, increases the spector of violence, right? when he says, you know, back in the day, general milley could be executed, he is sending messages out there. it is a mob boss formformulatio. then it is echoed, right? it is really important. joe makes an interesting, important point. the biden administration, biden campaign has to go after him, but they can't look like dukakis in a damn tank. but they have to do it in their line, and hit the threat head on. it is not policy, it is existential. it is visceral. it is in the gut. what jon is saying has to be interpreted in a way that it hits viscerally, hits in the gut. >> two years now, law enforcement officials, government officials warned me, they're afraid of the thought of political violence heading into this election here, particularly with these indictments against trump. one wonders, this seeming threat against mark milley, what about trump's gag order, as well? that could be held against him. jen palmieri, to the point of what the biden administration should be doing, they are going to be speaking of threats to democracy this week. the president will be in arizona paying tribute to his friend, senator mccain, as well as, once again, warning about what could happen. but to joe's point earlier, should -- and let me ask you, drawing upon your communications background here, should president biden and his team also be highlighting these missteps from trump, raising the mental acuity, his fitness for office? the cover of ""the new yorker"" is biden, trump, pelosi, mcconnell, all senior citizens, not a flattering look. but the fear is, white house aides say any time the issue of age comes up, fairly or not, it is bad for biden, though they can be making the same points for trump. >> ugh. >> no, joe, thanks. >> look at jen. >> jen, oh, my god. >> okay. >> that's loser talk. >> right. it's also the biggest issue that's there. >> right. >> biden has started talking about it more, which i think is good, joking about it. whether the president himself points out, "hey, this guy is also old and also having -- and also misspeaks," like, i'm not sure that i would use the president for that. but i think that there is -- i do have a concern. let's look at the nbc poll, for example. biden's favorability dropped three points to the lowest ever in the nbc poll. three points is not a lot. it's in the margin of error, whatever. but you look at trends. normally, when your favorability rating drops, you can point to something, like gas prices went up, or there's some problem that, you know, explains why there is a drop. in the last three months, nothing has really happened that should make the president's approval rating drop, right? there is nothing sort of outside politics that's happened. so i think the republican attacks might be having an impact, as you noted, the stuff about hunter might be having an impact. that suggests you should be fighting back. you don't have to use the president for that. there are surrogates. there are people who can go on television who are not the president that can be making the points that joe did earlier. now, you know, i think also the way the white house is looking at this, we have 13 months between now and the election in 2024 to recreate or create a new majority coalition that will vote for biden. they think, what you need to know now is, you need to make sure those people know that there is a good reason to vote for joe biden because everything is accomplished and will do, not just because of trump is bad. if you just do trump is bad, that'll drag everybody down and make everybody feel their choices are bad. they want people to feel good about this choice, and they want to do that work now. i think you can do both things at once. i think you can do that work -- because, by the way, a lot of that happens through digital ads or other communication -- and the president can be talking about, you know, today he is going to the uaw. he can hit really hard. first president of the united states to go to a picket line. it's a sacrament for union workers, for a president to do that. he can hit trump really hard, what he didn't do as president to help these people. you know, on substance. then you can have other people that are making this argument about how incredibly unfit that he is. >> you know, great points all. i will say, what i learned very quickly in politics is, if you run away from an attack ad, if you run away from an attack, you lose. it always catches you from behind. you always lose. if you go right into the attack and use it and pummel it and turn it against your opponent, you win. i've seen it happen time and time again. i remember being attacked in 1996 for being part of those mean republicans who cut medicare. the aflfio spent hundreds of millions of dollars attacking republicans who cut medicare. even though, even though the medicare trustee said he had to lower the rate of growth on medicare or it'd go bankrupt in seven years, so we did the right thing. my friends who were freshmen that year with me, they ran away from the attack. i ran straight into it. after being attacked in my first debate, i said, you know what? every debate from now on, i'm not going to talk about education. i'm not going to talk about defense. i'm not going to talk about -- i'm going to talk about why i had to lower medicare costs. that's all i'm going to talk about. win or lose, i don't really care, because i'm going to -- you're not going to be able to lie about me. so i did it throughout the entire campaign. i told the story to some people on this show before. right before the election, i got a phone call. it was glen bolger, public opinion strategy. he asked me, congressman, what are you going on senior citizens? i panicked and thought, oh, boy, maybe i shouldn't have talked about medicare. i asked why. he said, because of the 150, 200 people we polled for, members, you have the highest number among senior citizens. it's outrageously high. what did you do? i said, glen, i told them the truth. i told them the truth. i won by another massive landslide. nobody ever ran against me again. that was the end, basically. no democrat took me on after that. i ran two more races unopposed by democrats. jen, that's why i think they need to go straight into the fire. >> yeah. >> if i were joe biden, i wouldn't let an opportunity go up. somebody asked about donald trump, i'd say, "well, you need to ask barack obama that question because that's who he thinks he's running against this year." or if it's about the republican party, go, "i don't know. talk to donald trump. he says he beat george w. bush in 2016. says he beat barack obama in 2016." i mean, you've got to hammer it, hammer it, hammer it. then, after that, you can turn. actually tell people how well you're doing. but i want to underline this point that you said. joe biden's numbers, regardless of what the polls are saying, are not going down because the economy. i can show you numbers that say three out of four americans think they're doing pretty well right now in the economy. his numbers are going down because this "he's too old" message has stuck. the white house has had their head in the sand. if they want to get on the right side of the numbers, they've got to confront this head on. this president has succeeded in historic ways if you look at the midterm election, if you look at bipartisan legislation that has passed. he's done more than any president this century. you look at a lot of economic data. it's positive. they just look at joe biden, and they hear what republicans and fox news and donald trump are saying all the time. they're like, "eh, he's too old. we aren't a vital nation anymore." they've got to fight that head on. >> so i think that -- i mean, you know, he did last week, right? he did, but it can't all be on the president, right? >> that's right. >> that's part of the thing. >> right. >> he needs to be president. he can't take all this on. all donald trump has to be is a candidate. donald trump is acting as if the general election has started, and, you know, when that happens, then you need people other than the president that are, you know, all over msnbc and all over other cable networks that are hammering these arguments. you know, they can't have it all just rest on biden. >> yeah. as far as timing goes, willie, also, if you go back to 2012, the obama campaign, that election was over by may of 2012. they had so defined mitt romney as this cold-hearted industrialist that allowed people to die because he took away their health insurance, it was over in may. looking back a year later, they all said it. everybody said it. this race was over in may because they defined him. that's why i usually say 13 months, oh, it's plenty of time. it's not plenty of time. what happens between now and the end of the year is going to determine who is in the best shape to win the election next year. right now, everything is breaking against the president because, yeah, his team, i don't expect the president to do this all by himself, he's got a big team. they need to start focusing on donald trump and screw bidenomics. focus on the guy who is threatening american democracy, wanting to shoot, wanting to execute the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, and wanting to shut down free speech. >> that's an argument that the president has made but in private to donors. he was here last week in new york for the u.n. at an event on broadway, he was explicit, doing what you just said. this election is about democracy. if this guy wins, we're going to lose what we've had in this country for 240 years. jonathan lemire, he is trying to walk the line. look at all the stuff i've done. here's the economy. here's record low unemployment, et cetera, go down the list. also, explain the stakes of this race. maybe he needs to do it more explicitly. but the word you hear in the polling is fitness. is he fit for office? is joe biden fit for office? well, in his case, that's a physical question, i guess. but for donald trump, that question could be asked in terms of, is this a man who should be sitting in the white house again given everything we know he's done? now, he's telling us he plans to do. >> it's a moral question. certainly to your point, the president has ramped up his attacks on trump somewhat in recent weeks, more in the private, small donor settings. i was in a few last week here in new york when he made that same case. but not to disappoint joe again, but those close to the president say that his campaign is not going to ramp up until early next year. this is a pacing issue for him. it's also, they feel right now, the best thing they can do is simply be president and, therefore, let the republicans tear themselves up. they were banking, however, on the gop primary field to take a lot more swipes on trump than they have. that's the part of their strategy that hasn't worked out yet. they thought it'd be a brutal in infighting there in the gop. those who want trump's job haven't gone after him. i will just say, though, that's part of the concern here. trump is moving a general election. i think we'll hear more from biden in that, too, maybe today, starting with the auto workers. but it is going to be a slow ramp-up for this team. >> i mean, i think there's a lot to be said for that. there's a strategy there. he does have to do the business of being president. i think that there's another republican debate coming up, hopefully, i'm sure, they will do some of their own work at some point. they have to compete against trump if any of them want traction in the primary. most importantly, for democrats, instead of going, eh about joe biden's age, flip the equation. go after trump. when they say, "joe is old," say, "yeah, but look what he's done." bottom line right there, democrats need to get more aggressive, they need to stop worrying out loud. they have a great track record with joe biden. jon meacham, final thoughts for this block? >> well, 60 years ago roughly, ronald reagan gave an electrifying speech for barry goldwater, known as a time for choosing. this is a time for choosing, and it's speaking as a citizen, this is what we have to decide. do we want a constitutional democracy with all of its imperfections, or do we want one man government, one interest government? it's not much more complicated. my own view of this is that any policy disputes we have should be subordinated to wanting an experiment or a more perfect union to continue. it's not always true, but it is true today. >> historian jon meacham, thank you very much for coming on this morning. we appreciate it. coming up, a defiant senator bob menendez refuses to step down after being indicted on corruption charges. >> did you see the gold bars? >> good lord. >> you know, how many people, you know, have gold bars in their house? >> it does not look good. >> wads of cash. like, wads of cash. john fetterman's campaign said they turned back the donations. hundreds stuffed in envelopes. >> democrats, a growing number, are calling on him to resign, which says a lot on numbers levels. >> who are you? what are you thinking if you're al franken and they pushed you out of congress because a right-wing radio host -- >> don't start me. >> -- accused him of doing things not proven, and this guy is stealing swiss gold bars. >> well, we don't know that. >> hundreds of thousands of dollars. >> innocent until proven guilty. >> all in his house. democrats are going, "well, we really don't know what to do here." >> some democrats are calling for him to resign. >> "perhaps we should wait." >> we'll hear how -- >> but they didn't wait for al franken, did they? >> no, they didn't. that was bad. we said so in real time. still believe that. we'll hear how menendez explained where the wads of cash found stuffed in his jacket came from. >> i can't wait to hear this. plus, the government shutdown is days away with no agreement in sight. we'll get new reporting on what congress is prepared to do, as many federal workers and agencies brace for impact. >> that's bad news for those federal workers and agencies. it is worse news politically for republicans. keep driving off that cliff, baby. and a programming note here. former white house aide cassidy hutchinson will be our guest tomorrow morning. we'll get more on the chaos and lawlessness that she witnessed inside the oval office. >> and the smoking jackets. >> oh, boy. and meadows off the wagon. you're watching "morning joe." >> meadows thought -- >> thought it was a seltzer. >> wasn't hard. with fastsigns, brew signature flavor into every sip and sign. ♪♪ fastsigns. make your statement. what do we always say, son? 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"new york post" not buying that he had all that hidden due to cuba. joe, you're an expert. you have an underground bunker full of gold bars. as senator menendez said, for a rainy day. >> well, that's me. i've got the gold bouillon on one side. >> smart. >> i was an atlanta braves fan. you know, we went to see the braves play a lot. we were like, if the team can get beaten that badly, who is to say that the authorities won't come and beat us that badly and take all our money? then i got the gold bars, right? the gold bars, really heavy. sometimes, though, i do curls with them, you know, because i want to be in shape and everything. >> sure. >> you can do a lot of -- >> sometimes i just see how long he can go. >> gold bouillon, the gold bars. i've been an atlanta falcons fan since 1966. you see them getting slaughtered on the field, and you sit there going, "well, if that can happen to them, that could happen to me." his cuba explanation makes perfect sense, doesn't it? >> when the falcons gave up the 28-3 lead in the super bowl, you bought a bunch of survival seeds. it got weird after that. >> oh, a lot of those. >> glenn beck came over and personally delivered in a brinks truck survival seeds. dump her there, glenn. ar-15s lined on the wall. gold bullion. >> okay, nope, nope. >> this argument -- >> nope, nope. >> this argument is no dumber than bob menendez saying, "i'm from cuba, so, yeah, i keep gold bars and bouillon and cash in my house." come on, willie. come on. >> not buying it. are you, john? >> the best part of the indictment is the detail that after senator menendez received the gold bar, his google search history revealed he googled, "how much is a gold bar worth?" >> oh, my god. >> so, it does seem like it's the senator who has gotten out of trouble before, but faces a tougher hill to climb this time, eddie. i think it is interesting that we're starting to see some democrats pressure him to resign. there's a couple days of silence. senator fetterman was the first to go there. now, we have senator welch from vermont, as well as, we heard from former house speaker pelosi, senator brown from ohio. starting to have some names added to the roster. the white house has said they acknowledge this was a serious accusation, but they're staying out of it for now. >> the half million dollars, the gold bars, the influence, pedaling, it seems, with egypt. all of this against the backdrop of the crisis we face as a democracy. whether it's an ethics issue or whether it's a criminal issue, given the crisis we face as a country, he has to step down, it seems to me. he has to. >> yeah. >> well, i mean, you know, the crazy thing is, mika, i mean, nobody here is old enough to remember this but me, but we had the ab scam trials. you actually had members of congress that would take cash and they'd shove it in their pocket so much, they were out, looking like the michelin man when they were leaving the office. when they were busted by the fbi, they said, no, no, we're just conducting our own investigation. that's what menendez is like. he's conducting his own investigation. >> democrats are stepping out. i think it shows at this difficult time, jen, that, you know, democrats can see things and put political affiliation aside. if something appears to be untoward and unethical and not what the job is in washington, they say it like it is. we have some really powerful democrats calling on him to step down. >> first of all, i have to have a shout-out to the "morning joe" deejay for playing "darkness on the edge of town" from springsteen leading into this segment about the jersey senator. >> for sure. >> that was -- and they didn't even play the lyrics, just the music. it was nuanced. it was just so good. don't forget, governor phil murphy, senator menendez's actual governor, on friday came out and said that he should resign. >> yeah. >> i don't think, you know, just as trump is not, you know -- i don't think menendez is going to resign just as trump continues to campaign and run for president under indictment. because, you know, he is proving himself not to be a man of integrity. this is, if he resigns, it probably is -- he views it as an admission of guilt. he's been down this road before, doesn't seem to care it hurts confidence in the senate, hurts confidence in public officials. i don't know. it's good that people are holding him accountable this way, but i don't know he'll actually do it. >> yeah. congress returns to washington this morning with less than five days to reach an agreement to avert a government shutdown. house speaker kevin mccarthy still faces an uphill battle as hard right conservatives in his party are looking to use the shutdown as leverage for spending cuts. meanwhile, the senate will begin moving ahead with its own short-term solution. let's bring in nbc news capitol hill correspondent ali vitali. ali, what's the latest you're hearing on the negotiations so far? >> yeah, no better news than what i brought to you yesterday, mika. the idea that lawmakers,worked weekend on the house side, don't seem closer to a true consensus. we heard it from speaker mccarthy, who sounded notes of optimism. what will be fascinating this week, yes, watching the ways mccarthy tries to herd the cats within his conference burks also seeing the ways they interact with the senate plan that schumer and other key leaders are still trying to cobble together. i was told staff on the senate side are still working through the night to try to come to what this agreement could look like. again, we're talking continuing revolution, something to keep the lights on for an extra 30, 45 days, to buy these folks some time to actually do these appropriations bills. they are not fast processes here. that's why they're in the time-buying business. but if mccarthy were to take this lifeline that the senate could expand to him, yes, it'd help on the government funding front, but, no, it'd not help in terms of actually keeping his job. just the word "continuing resolution" on a cr, as we shorthand it on the hill, is something that could have several of his members, including matt gaetz, trigger a motion to vacate, fire him from his job, and you're back in a chaos standpoint. that's something i'm generally keeping in mind. the shutdown is one piece of this, but the back half is the open question of if mccarthy will keep his job. lemire asked a good question this morning on "way too early," if not mccarthy, who? i'll tell you what i told him, which is, i have no idea, but the chaos for some of the conservative members is truly the point. that's chaos, certainly, in the house. >> well, ali, some veterans that you've spoken to say they are worried about facing greater difficulties in getting care within an already strained system. certainly, there will be real chaos if there is a shutdown or if there are major cuts. what more are you hearing? >> exactly right, mika. because while the political chaos is one thing we often focus on here, shutdowns are bad for americans. i've covered so many of these not in washington, outside the beltway. people are really hurting. here's the thing, shutdowns make things worse because they cause new problems, but they can also make old problems even more dire than they already are. watch. >> we started advocating for this v.a. clinic back in 2003. >> reporter: it took timo more than two decades to get a v.a. clinic in his home of stockton, california. >> we went to meetings and started joking about, hopefully, it'll open up before we're pushing up daisies. >> reporter: it's not just about getting a new facility. >> we need this clinic to open with doctors, fully staffed. >> reporter: this rural community, about an hour from san francisco, falls prey to a national trend. veterans struggling to access health care because there aren't enough providers to see them. >> we have the longest wait times anywhere in california. if you're in stockton, you have to wait 80 or even 90 days, even 100 days. i talked to a veteran recently who wasn't able to get a refill on his diabetes medication. he ended up losing his leg. >> reporter: harder says here, the number of working primary care physicians has been cut in half just this year alone. as of 2022, more than 2,500 v.a. facilities face severe occupational shortages, a 22% increase from a year before. the resulting backlog wait times and rarely returned inquiries are why dozens of veterans, as well as caregivers like leslie stotts, packed into this room on a friday afternoon. >> my husband, vietnam vet, 100 100% disabled. >> reporter: it was fine before the pandemic. >> once covid happened, everything changed. we called, and a concern was never answered. >> reporter: you're playing a game of telephone with your husband's health care? >> yes. >> reporter: the local v.a. is working to alleviate staffing shortages with increased physician pay while expanding access to telehealth. >> we're here to help any day. >> reporter: inaction from congress could make this work. what does this town hall have to do with the government funding fight. >> this is a little of a canary in the coal mine. it'll not fix it and make it worse. >> reporter: in the meantime. >> we know what we've done in the military. the government promised one thing, but it is not fulfilling it. >> look, you heard what he said at the end of the piece, it is heartbreaking to know he's served, and now these institutions that are supposed to serve him are doing anything but. i will say, harder is trying to, in this funding fight, put an amendment in the v.a. appropriations bill that would better study just the scope of this issue. you have to understand a problem before you can start solve it. certainly, while petitioning the v.a., he is trying to do that. if furloughs happen at the v.a. level, this only makes a bad thing worse, mika. >> nbc news capitol hill correspondent ali vitali, thank you very much for that reporting this morning. coming up on "morning joe," while donald trump's legal team fights a gag order requested in his federal election interference case, our next guest argues, quote, biden needs to talk about the trump prosecutions before it's too late. we'll explain the risk of remaining silent straight ahead on "morning joe." to a child, this is what conflict looks like. children in ukraine are caught in the crossfire of war, forced to flee their homes. a steady stream of refugees has been coming across all day. it's bitterly cold. lacking clean water and sanitation. exposed to injury, hunger. exhausted and shell shocked from what they've been through. every dollar you give can help bring a meal, a blanket, or simply hope to a child living in conflict. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today with your gift of $10 a month, that's just $0.33 a day. we cannot forget the children in places like syria, born in refugee camps, playing in refugee camps, thinking of the camps as home. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today. with your gift of $10 a month, your gift can help children like ara in afghanistan, where nearly 20 years of conflict have forced the people into extreme poverty weakened and unable to hold herself up, ara was brought to a save the children's center, where she was diagnosed and treated for severe malnutrition. every dollar helps. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org today. with your gift of $10 a month, just $0.33 a day. and thanks to special government grants that are available now, every dollar you give can multiply up to ten times the impact. and when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special save the children tote bag to show you won't forget the children who are living their lives in conflict. every war is a war against children. please give now. new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today. ♪ ♪ whose resumes on indeed every day, businessesa. everywhere are asking: is it possible? with comcast business... it is. is it possible to help keep our online platform safe from cyberthreats? absolutely. can we provide health care virtually anywhere? we can help with that. is it possible to use predictive monitoring to address operations issues? we can help with that, too. with the advanced connectivity and intelligence of global secure networking from comcast business. it's not just possible. it's happening. beauty was, when i came, everybody thought bush was going to win. then trump was up 50 points. they thought, what is going on? bush supposedly was a military person, great. you know what? he got us into the -- he got us into the middle east. how did that work out, right? as you know, cooked joe biden and the radical left thugs weaponized law enforcement to arrest their leading political opponent, leading by a lot, including obama -- i'll tell you what, look at obama, some of the things he's done, this is the same thing. the country was very divided. with obama, we won an election that everyone said couldn't be won. we have a man who is totally corrupt and the worst president in the history of our country. who is cognitively impaired, in no condition to lead, and is now in charge of dealing with russia and possible nuclear war. just think of it. we would be in world war ii very quickly. >> willie, that's really frightening. later that night, he -- and it was really jarring -- he talked about the steps that joe biden was taking that would lead us into the french and indian war. i'm just hear to tell you, we don't want any of that, right? >> the steps on the beach? >> no. yeah, the steps on the beach. we won't -- >> don't do it. >> anyway, that guy is confused. again, if you just are sitting there going, what did i just see? you saw donald trump, who believes that he beat george w. bush in the 2016 republican primary, and then he beat barack obama in the 2016 general election. then he beat barack obama again in the 2020 election. in 2024, joe biden is leading russia and will take us into world war ii. complete with the qanon music in the background. >> yes. >> i mean, listen, i know world war ii ended 78 years ago, but he's been busy. he's been busy. no reason for him to know, you know, that we beat the japanese and the germans. >> yeah, we were looking for jeb bush, hillary clinton, and world war iii on those. 0 for 3. retake the cognitive test, the man, woman -- >> camera. >> yeah, whatever that was. first of all, the attacks on joe biden are about his age. those are very real. democrats have questions about his age, as we've been discussing this morning. >> yes. >> about whatever, you know, his cognitive ability may be. my god, watch donald trump in public. i know his supporters don't care. they go along with it. but watch the 40 minutes. really, watch the 40 minutes he spent in south carolina. just ask yourself if that man, if that is a man who is fit mentally, we're talking about here, for office. the other thing is, he's distracted, joe. if you had 91 felony counts against you, you had your entire next calendar year and beyond probably tied up with very serious federal cases that could send you to jail for the rest of your life, you might be distracted, too. >> yeah. >> let's remind, like, what makes an indictment? i mean, they talk about the weaponization of the justice department. no, no. >> yeah. >> there are peers that have chosen to -- in four different cases, 91 counts. 91. >> right. well, you have the 91 counts because you have people all around donald trump, that have supported donald trump to the bitter end, talking to the feds, talking about how, you know, he stole nuclear secrets, how he did all these other things, how he tried to obstruct justice, how he tried to tell people, "you didn't see any of this. youboxes," telling his i.t. person to destroy the tapes. fascinating if you like crooks running for the white house. >> jonathan lemire, eddie glaude jr. and jen palmieri still with us. former senator and now nbc and msnbc analyst, claire mccaskill. >> you ran a campaign before and didn't run by the marquess of queensberry rules. you ran tough and hard. we've been talking about the fact the biden team have allowed republicans to paint him as an old dottering fool, while you have donald trump saying bizarre things on the campaign trail, and no response. they're saying, "we're not going to respond to that, to the fact he has 91 counts against him, the fact he's been indicted four times." there are a lot of democrats, and i'd agree with him, that would think his best way forward is not just talking about the gdp. >> yeah. listen, i don't want to disagree with my podcast cohost, the brilliant jen, but let me just say, that i think it is really, really important that joe biden use his incredible ability to be casual and natural and talk about the reality. that we have two old guys running for president. there's one that respects the constitution, and then there is another that's out of his ever-loving mind. >> right. >> that is absolutely not fit for office, not fit to hold the office, not just because of what he says but because of what he has done. i would add here because i was champing at the bit at your last segment, democrats need to wake up about menendez. you cannot criticize donald trump and say he's been indicted, he's been indicted. because he's indicted, he's not fit to hold office, then remain silent about a guy that showed this kind of lack of judgment in terms of -- forget what menendez did, what it's criminal, what he did showed an incredible lack of ethics and judgment. the same can be said for donald trump. now, obviously, what donald trump did is way more serious in terms of threatening the entire republic, but you can't have two standards here. one has been criminally indicted. the other has been criminally indicted. we're going to go on and on about how bad donald trump is and remain silent about menendez? that doesn't work with swing voters, and i don't think, frankly, it'll work in new jersey. >> i totally agree with you, claire mccaskill. jen, i'll throw it to you for a response. and add in, i think there are risks to joe biden, the president, escalating this war against donald trump right now and calling him out, even on things donald trump admits to doing, because i think he has to be very careful about what he does in his position as president. also with all sorts of these, you know, far-reaching attempts to make it look like joe biden is weaponizing the justice department. i think he doesn't hurt himself by sticking his nose to the grindstone, doing his job, keeping a good schedule, having a staff that makes sure everything he does publicly is focused and targeting, sending a proper message, and making sure the president shows his best side. that's their job, to make that happen. then democrats, i think democrats can get much more aggressive about what it is that joe biden will be facing, potentially, if donald trump becomes the nominee. >> i think what claire -- what claire laid out is something that biden could say, to say, we're both old. one is crazy, one is not. one has gotten more done than anyone in recent history. it can't all be on the president to do this. you can't manage everything from the west wing. you know, this is a -- the general election has started in donald trump's mind, in the public's mind, and you need more people on the field making this argument and using other venues, digital, et cetera, to be making this argument. it just can't all be on biden. i mean, when you hear trump, it's not as if he's misspoke, which sometimes can happen, as well. like, i think he really thinks it. i'm not even sure -- >> he's confused. >> i'm not even sure he's talking about w. when he's talking about bush. he talks about the great military record. i mean, he may even think it was h.w. bush. you know, a man who actually fought in world war ii. he talks about getting us into the middle east. he's the one that, you know, when iraq invaded kuwait. i'm not sure that's what he is talking about, w. could be talking about h.w. >> who knows? he is terribly confused up there, and you can see that he is terribly confused up there. i love the argument, though. i love the argument that claire was talking about, willie. you have two old guys, it's true. i'm old. you have two old guys up here. one of them is crazy, the other is not. one of them steals nuclear secrets, the other doesn't. one says he wants to terminate the constitution of the united states, the other doesn't. one says he wants to execute the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, the other doesn't. one says he wants to take control of what news networks are on tv and ban the ones that he doesn't want. the other supports free speech. yeah, yeah. oh, by the way, a judge said that one of them has raped a woman. the other one, no. i mean, this could go on all day. it's actually a pretty positive argument, and that's what you call running into the attack. you run into the attack, and you make it your own. use the power of that attack against the other person, and you win. >> yeah. the president could also say, "i've never paid off any porn stars whatsoever to keep them quiet ahead of a presidential election while my wife was home with our newborn child." he could point out all of those things. >> that's a good one. >> to your point about mark milley, donald trump's former defense secretary, mark esper, now defending outgoing joint chiefs of staff general mark milley after former president trump suggested milley is a traitor who, in the good old days, he said, would have been put to death. he attacked the general on social media of going behind his back by making phone calls to chinese counterparts in the final months of trump's administration. trump was reacting to a profile in "the atlantic" where milley revealed he felt the need to protect the constitution from donald trump, to talk to other countries and assure them the nuclear arsenal was secure. here's what former defense secretary esper said yesterday. >> first of all, that statement by the president is horrible. it's intolerable. it should be condemned by everybody, right, left, republican, democrat, right? mark milley served his country well, did it professionally, and we owe him a great deal of gratitude. i do, as well. and so part of this is a lot of misinformation. i think in some case, inaccuracies or incomplete stories that came out of some of the books that were published at the time. one of the two events the president referenced was a call he made to china in october 2020, where he warned them, if you will. i think the allegation is that he gave them information or something. but what's often not told is the other part of the story that i describe in quite some detail in my book. i had reached out to the chinese two weeks beforehand because i was concerned about what we were picking up in intelligence and open sources, from private parties about the chinese concerned and troubled by what they were seeing. my view was, i did not want a mishap, an imperception to lead to some type of conflict in the south china sea between the united states and china. that's the last we wanted. it was in the subsequent meeting that i directed general milley to reach out to his counterpart, as well, to send the same message, that nothing is going on here. we have no aims against you. it's going to be steady as she goes. that was what we did typically in these types of situations. he conveyed that message. somehow, it was portrayed he was a rogue general acting on his own, and he sent messages to the chinese. mark milley did what i directed him to do, what other chairman have done in the past, which i think is responsible diplomacy, prevent mishaps from happening. >> that is defense secretary esper. here is what trump truth socialed. he wrote, this is an act so eg egregious,nimes gone by, the punishment would have been death. what esper is describing there but talking about milley specifically. he writes, to be continued, like maybe this will happen. the problem is, if donald trump is elected again, there's no esper, no milley. the secretary of defense is, say, michael flynn or someone like that. >> that's true. in the interim, before we get to the election, these sorts of comments increase the specter of violence, right? i mean, we have to understand what trump is doing very clearly. when he says that, in these days, this would have happened, he's signaling to those folk out there what could possibly happen, and some lone wolf could do something very, very dangerous. he is doing this over and over again. whether it's directed to milley, directed at judges, directed at witnesses, this is part of the kind of context in which the environment of terror, what is terrorism, this idea of the possibility that if you do x, y and z, this could happen. in so many way, it makes this political season so very, very dangerous, willie. >> very dangerous. we have a new nbc poll we're going to get into later on in the show that suggests that voters trust republicans more than democrats to defend democracy. this is the party that gave birth to donald trump. this is the pty of the insurrection. this is the party of there are hundreds of -- more than 100 members who voted to de-certify joe biden's win. you're seeing the poll numbers here. 37% to 36%, republicans. they've picked up four points, and democrats have dropped four, claire mccaskill. how do we explain that? there have been republicans at times who stood up to trump on certain issues, mitch mcconnell being one of them, but silence here. he's calling that something could happen to milley. >> all this polling is giving me a headache, can i say? >> sure. >> at this point in time, barack obama in 2011 had the exact -- almost the exact same approval rating as joe biden. okay? almost exactly same approval rating. obama did just fine in '12. i think without seeing the cross tabs on that question for independents, looks like, to me, people who are saying that the republicans will protect democracy are the hardened votes for donald trump. those people that are saying democrats will protect democracy are those people who have totally said we, under no circumstances, will ever go near donald trump. unless you look at the independent swing voters which are going to decide this election in the tipping point states, i'm not sure that it gives me huge concern. what does give me concern is that i haven't heard enough republicans that have raised their hand -- they all do this. when you get sworn in, you take an oath on the bible to uphold the constitution. the idea that we haven't heard from the maga crazies about the idea that we would execute the chairman of the joint -- >> on the contrary, some are echoing what trump said. >> yeah, i mean, that is what is really frightening about this. you know, the poll, i can -- i'm trying to ignore most of them at this point because there are outliers that are hitting and that are really, like, nuts, but, you know, where is the chairman of the armed services committee in the united states -- the ranking member of the armed services committee in the united states senate? where is he? where is joni ernst, who served in the military? where are the republicans that say they care about the military? the idea that he would get away with saying this without being totally lambasted by every republican elected official is stunning to me. this is one of the worst things he's ever said. imagine how high that bar is. >> well, let's talk about a couple things here, claire. one, let's talk about polls. i brought this up before a couple days ago, but let's remember, at this point in 1979, ted kennedy was ahead of jimmy carter by a 2-1 margin to win the democratic primary. there wasn't a person in mainstream media who was not sure that ted kennedy was going to be the nominee the following year, the democratic nominee. of course, he wasn't. jimmy carter said, if he runs, i'll whip his ass. jimmy carter did. that's one. two, when you're talking, asking where these republican senators are on the horrible things that are being said about general milley, well, you could ask the same question about where were they when donald trump attacked mitch mcconnell back in the fall of last year? because mitch mcconnell supported bipartisan legislation. trump truth socialed it then that he did it because he hates me so much. then in all caps, "he has a death wish." all caps. that's not a dog whistle. that is an invitation, just like, "come on january 6th, it'll be wild. mitch mcconnell," all caps, that is a invitation for his people to assassinate mitch mcconnell or general milley. ask the question. where are the republicans? why aren't they critical about donald trump for saying that about general milley? same with mitch mcconnell. there should have been a proesz press conference with every republican senator saying, they're putting our leader's life in jeopardy. it's silence, always silence. >> it is so depressing, you know? we've said many times before, i honestly believe, you know, people think that i beat todd aiken because of what he said. i beat todd aiken because all the republicans together said, you know, we don't want this guy in the senate. it had an impact, a huge impact, in a state that most people thought there was no way i could win again in '12. that's because all of the republicans, the leaders of the republican party, all came together and condemned what aiken had said. if they'd all just do that, it would solve the problem they all mutter about. we're never going to get rid of this guy. they all mutter it, they're afraid to say it out loud. >> that's right. let's bring in a federal prosecutor, contributing editor for "new york" magazine. his new piece is titled, "biden needs to talk about the trump prosecutions before it's too late." >> there's the theme in the show,mika. >> there is a theme. i'm not sure i agree, but ankus h ankush, explain. why may it be too late? >> we have a case involving the first ever former president of the united states, and there are risks here that i think we're confronting, biden in the white house are confronting on behalf of the country, quite honestly, right? one of them is, we have donald trump out here all day, every day, truthing or tweeting or whatever you call it now, potentially tainting the jury, threatening people potentially, incentivizing people to engage in violence. we also need to make sure these proceedings, whatever their outcome, have maximum public confidence. right now, i worry there is an asymmetric dynamic going on. you have half the country talking about the cases, the media talking about the case, but democrats are silent at the highest levels. a third risk we have here, donald trump is running, obviously, and he may win and may be able to undo all of this. not just the cases that are pending against him, but a bunch of the january 6th prosecutions, including the seditious conspiracy cases. one last point before i finish, obviously, you folks spend a lot of time, and as do i, thinking about the political dimensions of these things. let's assume donald trump were not running next year. it would be transparently absurd, in my estimation, for the white house to be sigh len silent on this. the first ever criminal case against a former president. he is alleged to have tried to steal the last election. part of this, in my estimation, is about presidential leadership and the accountability. right now, i really think that the white house is effectively diminishing the seriousness of these cases by ignoring them, and kind of playing into this trope that biden is kind of an absentee president who is sort of along for the ride. >> ankush, what is your sense of why? why aren't they taking this head on? you have the dynamic that his son is a criminal defendant. he doesn't want to be seen as putting his thumb on the scale in some way. he's worked so hard to separate himself from the justice department because the accusation, unfounded, of course, from donald trump, is that joe biden ordered all of these justice department charges against him. do you think he now sees that this is a political advantage and an important statement, not outside of politics, but to the country, about how serious this all is? how important is it he step forward and do this? >> i think it is very important. i mean, when tim mcveigh was arrested for the oklahoma city bombing, it was weeks after that president clinton at the time gave a speech. he talked about the rule of law, about the threats to the country, about violence in the country. he didn't name tim mcveigh. he didn't name anyone else, but he talked about the rule of law, about the importance of living under equal treatment under the law, and ensuring there is accountability under the law. it is not just the menendez case which now, i think, would help biden tell a better story here, but also the hunter biden case, his own son is confronting the federal criminal justice system. so, you know, i think he has a unique story to tell in this regard, actually. from where he sits, not only does he have these prosecutions that are heavily politically inflected, but his own son is going through this process. he and his son are going to have to submit to the legal system just like everyone else in this country. that is a very powerful statement, i think, that's so far not been made by a white house, even subtly. so i think that in the long run here, you know, this should be a discussion, at least for biden in the white house, this should be a discuss not about outcomes, but about the process of holding people accountable in this country under an equal system of laws. >> and respecting that process. former federal prosecutor, ankush, thank you very much. his new piece is online now for "new york" magazine. thanks very much for being on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," american-made abrams tanks have arrived in ukraine. and the u.s. military will soon begin training ukrainian pilots on f-16 fighter jets, which are being provided for the country's war effort by norway, denmark, and the netherlands. the dutch minister of defense will join us to talk about efforts to arm ukraine, next on "morning joe." what was it like before viasat satellite internet? two words: not fun. times up. sharing's caring! but now with viasat's new plans, we have plenty of internet. for everyone! learn more about our plans at viasat.com you know, these kids grow so fast, cherish every little moment you get with them. tyler, he's 10, and little dayrl, he's 12. being a single dad, it is hard, really hard. i've been there since day one. i know how it is, you know, not to have nothing. i don't really get paid much. there's been time i've went hungry. made sure they ate. there ain't a thing i wouldn't do for them. right now, millions of our neighbors are facing hunger. rising food prices are making it tougher to put food on the table. please call or go online and join with feeding for $19 a month, just $0.63 a day. you'll help families fill their plates with nutritious food, thanks to a nationwide network of food banks, dedicated volunteers and the monthly support of people like you. at least now i know i got, you know, help if i need it. one in eight children face hunger in america and food costs are rising. we are getting closer to the day when no one in america faces hunger. but we can't do it without you. call or go online now. visit helpfeedingamerica.org and give $19 a month, just $0.63 a day. and when you use your credit card, you'll receive this exclusive canvas grocery bag to show you're a part of a movement working together to ensure that everyone has the food and resources we all need to thrive. 98% of your donation goes directly to help millions of families bring meals home from coast to coast and in your own community. if you're hungry, you know, if they got it, they'll feed you. people just got to realize, you know, places like this do exist that will help you. please call now or make your monthly donation at helpfeedingamerica.org. working together, we can end hunger in america. 7:28 here in new york. next month in arizona, the u.s. military will begin training ukrainian pilots on f-16 fighter jets. the pilots have been in san antonio learning english first before they train on the jets themselves. the move comes in coordination with the netherlands and norway who are giving f-16 jets. a training center in romania is being looked at to train other pilots. joining us is kajsa ollongren. minister, thank you for being here. we appreciate it. from the dutch point of view, what is the status of these f-16s, and how soon might they be in the hands of ukrainians? >> well, as soon as possible, of course. but, naturally, first, they have to be trained. not only the pilots but also the crew, the technicians, everyone you need to fly an f-16 and to fight in an f-16. we really don't know how long it'll take to do this training. we estimate six to eight months, which is really, really fast if you compare it to the trainings we do with our pilots, your pilots. but it depends on a lot of factors. that's the timeframe. danes have started. united states is starting. we're working on a training center in romania to have it up and running as soon as possible, and the delivery of the jets will be starting sometime next year. >> as you know well, as the biden administration knows well, for almost a year and a half now, president zelenskyy has been calling for these f-16s. as he puts it, to close the skies, to protect ukrainian air space from russia. can you lay out a little bit for people who wonder why it's taken this long, what all has done into getting us to this place, finally, perhaps, from zelenskyy's point of view, a little too late? >> yes. well, we see how this war has developed. i think we started by giving, you know, from our own stocks, weapons, but not at all like the f-16s. later on, it was the tanks, and now it's the f-16s. american capability, we need the approval from washington, d.c., and it's also, for us, an important capability. we're transitioning to the f-35, and that is the reason we can deliver the f-16s, once we've done the transition. same goes for norway and denmark. these things do take time. i think the most important thing is the signal we're sending, not only to kyiv but also to moscow and the kremlin. that is, we are there. we will be behind the ukrainians for as long as it takes. we'll provide them with the weapons and ammunition, and we'll work on strengthening their armed forces, also for after the war. russia is not going anywhere. first, they have to be defeated, then ukraine has to be safe as an important partner to nato countries. >> madame, that is the topic i wanted to go to. at the u.n., biden said the u.s. will be there with kyiv, but we're seeing republicans in washington questioning whether or not they should continue to fund the war effort there in ukraine. are you -- is europe, which to this point has been so united, even though this counteroffensive has been slow, winter approaching again, is europe getting worried that the united states won't be there if this war keeps dragging on? >> well, yes, of course. we are hearing these things. that does worry us. i think we all must be aware of the fact that the russians have to be stopped in ukraine. it's just not -- it's not just any regional conflict between ukraine and russia. this is russia, a nuclear power. this is an ally of china. so this is something that concerns all of us in europe but also here in the united states. one thing is for sure, ukraine cannot fight this war without our support. if we stop delivering weapons, if we stop the funding, ukraine has to stop fighting. that's why it is so extremely important that we keep our unity and that we keep on finding the budget, finding the weapons, finding the ammunition to support ukraine for as long as it takes. >> are you seeing any kind of cracks within the nato community like we're seeing in the republican party here? and then, what i worry is the expectations that people might have from hearing the f-16s are coming. i'm fairly familiar with the training process, which the united states takes very seriously, i'm sure the countries of nato do, too. i mean, first, they have to learn english, then they have to learn how to fly and target and do all the things that are a long process. >> absolutely. >> so, first, is nato still unified, as we have seen it be? second, what is really the timeline? it's a couple of years at least, isn't it? >> your first question, is nato still unified, i think, yes, we are. but, of course, nato is a big group of countries. 31 countries now, 32 once sweden joins. there are always elections somewhere, domestic issues somewhere, but i think, in the end, we are united. if you listen to the secretary general, stoltenberg, he is stressing this point. european allies are stepping up, increasing defense budgets, who are doing everything they can to make sure ukraine can win this war. on the f-16s, you know, it's not just one capability that's going to make the difference. it's not just the f-16 that is going to make ukraine win the war. but we know they need it because, you know, without the air dominance, it's impossible, i think, to win the war. there is a sort of stalemate in the air between russia and ukraine. the f-16 will add that extra to the air defense of ukraine, and, of course, we all know it. we know it's an excellent weapons system. that's why it is so important that they do get it. but we have to take it seriously. i agree, if you know how to fly it but you don't know how to fight it, it's not going to make a difference for them. >> given the situation, given what you've just described, is it simply stopping -- is the end game stopping russian aggression? what is the end game in your view here? is it getting russia completely out of ukraine? how do you see or envision this thing coming to a close? >> well, we've said since the beginning, it's up to ukraine to decide on that. i think for ukraine, the goal is very clear, and that means getting russia out of ukraine territory, including crimea. if you see where they're focusing on now, the progress they're making in the region, how they're targeting crimea, the black sea, that is exactly what they're doing. but it is going to take time. the russian defenses in ukraine, the annexed areas, was very strong. russia has an endless supply of new soldiers, of new weapons, they can build a war economy, which is more difficult for us compared to russia. it is not going to be an easy task, but i think that is the goal of ukraine. once they make enough progress, there might, at some point, be the start of discussions between russia and ukraine. but we're not there yet. >> mika has a question for you right there, madame minister. >> yeah, focusing on the stalemate in the air, as you put it, and also your answer that it's up to ukraine how this ends, i'm just curious, what are the discussions with the partners, the nato partners, about how far this does go when it comes to providing weapons to ukraine? >> well -- >> are there any? >> it's the same debate that you've seen here in the united states. we should not just provide them with enough weapons to defend themselves, but we should provide them with enough weapons to fight back and to push the russians back. i think we also have to have some patience. this does -- this will take time. this is really a big war. it's on a scale that we have not seen since the second world war in europe, at least. it takes time. as i said, russia and putin, he can just continue to mobilize, continue to increase production of weapons and ammunition. but in the end, i think it is very important. this is an aggressive state that has annexed, is trying to annex and invade another country, that means that it is not only about ukraine, as important as it is for ukraine to, you know, remain free and democratic country, it's not only about ukraine. it is also about the values that we have in nato. it is about territorial integrity. it is about respecting the u.n. charter. it is really, really important. we should not think of this as some regional conflict. we should think of this as a world global power that russia wants to be, with nuclear weapons, that can be a threat to all of us if they are not stopped in ukraine and by ukraine. >> we're in the middle of a spending fight over a budget this week in our congress, and some of the opposition to the legislation that's put up is to ukraine, to funding the war there. it's a small number, but there are still enough that can affect this. some americans have said, tens of billions of dollars, that's a lot of money that we could be spending at home. are you seeing any cracks in support with the public in the netherlands or within your parliament, as well? >> no. i think in the netherlands, the support is really broad. we are having elections in november, and you see very broadly, we have lots of political parties. in general, people support continuing the support to ukraine. we don't see that, but we do see the debate here in the united states. i really hope that, also, the american people will see that it's in their own interest to stop the russians by providing the weapons to ukraine. we're not fighting the war, the ukrainians are fighting for us. >> minister of defense of the netherlands, kajsa ollongren. i think all defense ministers should wear nike air max shoes. >> maybe more women. >> yes, absolutely. >> right? >> absolutely. >> i agree. >> great to have you here. >> thank you very much. still ahead, republican presidential hopefuls will be back on the debate stage tomorrow night. that includes florida governor ron desantis, who says he is also ready to debate a democrat. we'll tell you who that is. plus, hunter biden taking legal action against someone in the inner circle. that next on "morning joe." welcome back to "morning joe." it is 42 past the hour. a live look at the white house on a rainy, foggy morning. the second republican presidential primary debate is tomorrow night in simi valley, california. seven candidates have qualified for the event. they are doug berg ham, chris christie, ron desantis,ikki haley, mike pence, vivek ramaswamy and tim scott. former arkansas governor asa hutchinson, who was on the first debate stage, did not qualify this time around, but says he plans to continue campaigning. and the frontrunner for the gop nomination, former president donald trump, is skipping the event. meanwhile, florida governor ron desantis and california governor gavin newsom will square off on the debate stage this fall. fox news announcing yesterday that sean hannity will moderate the 90-minute event on november 30th. both sides agreed in early august to take each other on, but negotiations stalled for weeks over the proposed rules. a spokesman for newsom said in a statement that the california governor agreed to the debate, quote, provided there is no cheering section, no hype videos, or any of the other crutches desantis requested. governor desantis posted on twitter that he looks forward to the opportunity to debate newsom over their very different visions for the future. and this just into us, we're learning that hunter biden is suing former new york city mayor rudy giuliani, as well as giuliani's former attorney, robert costello, alleging violations of computer fraud and data access. the new lawsuit claims that hunter's data was manipulated, altered and damaged prior to it being sent to costello and giuliani, and that the pair were involved in the illegal hacking and tampering of the devices. the lawsuit says in a footnote that the suit does not constitute an admission by hunter biden. nbc news is in the process of reaching out to giuliani and costello for comment. the suit is seeking over $75,000 in damages and attorneys' fees. coming up, quote, the bodies keep coming. that's the title of the new book from one trauma surgeon, as he gives his take on violence, racism, and healing. the doctor will join us with what he is seeing firsthand. plus, senator debbie stabenow of michigan will be our guest ahead of president biden's trip today to her state, and to join the united auto workers on the picket line. "morning joe" will be right back. balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. 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( ♪♪ ) constant contact. helping the small stand tall. live picture of ft. lauderdale at 7:49 in the morning. wish we had that weather up here, but we don't. it's been raining for a week nonstop. florida's controversial decision to pull an african-american studies advanced placement been facing ongoing backlash. now, some taking action at a local level. "the hill" notes, quote, residents are uniting in their churches, parks and homes to learn of the about the history k americans, including drawing on materials that had been removed from school shelves. florida's history regarding race takes center stage in a new children's book. the author joins us now. i don't think it's a children's book, it's more of a young adult book. >> middle grade. kids are precocious these days. >> we have a 15-year-old at the middle of this book. where does the title "wrecker" come from? >> in key west, which has a tradition of outlaws and scoundrels, one of the great traditions was salvage. ships would come up on reefs, and everybody would get in the boat and go out and salvage the wrecks. they kept a percentage of the gold or the cotton or whatever it was. those days are long gong. the descendents still live in key west. the center of the story say kid -- is a kid who has generations of that. he spends time on the water. he witnesses something and gets caught up in something at the beginning of the novel that's it's hard for him to get out of. >> when you sit down with the first blank page, how do the ideas percolate for you? >> it's because of my background. it was the newspaper business. i begin with a lead paragraph. with a date and something happened. the natural flow -- it's the way i always started writing with -- lay out facts in the beginning and let the character take over, which you can't do in a newspaper story. in florida, you kind of can. most newspaper stories you can't. >> talk to us about how key west, not just the setting of the book, but it's really a character. >> key west is one of my favorite islands. it's always been. it is sort of -- it is one of the most -- these days one of the most liberal -- but in a sense of welcoming anybody. it doesn't matter. everybody gets along in key west. part of this novel is -- a subplot takes place 100 years earlier with a lynching by the ku klux klan of a man many key west on christmas day of 1921. it really happened. it happened to a man whose sin was living with and loving a woman of mixed race. it was called the chamber of commerce. it ran the whole town. several judges were members of the kkk for a brief period in the '20s. two of the characters have generational ties to what happened then and are affected by what happened then. a few years after that, they were gone, never to be seen again. at the time, they ran the whole show. you think of key west as marg ree -- margaritaville. >> talk about the book ban and how "wrecker" is landing in the environment. >> i think the movement -- it started in florida under desantis -- was a mobilizing of a few local people in each community to speak up at school board meetings. hijack school board meetings. with the list of books that are objectionable, by their standards only. successfully have intimidated a lot of school board members. in my case, there were a couple of events that got canceled for this event. one in north carolina, one in georgia, and one in virginia. in one case they complained because the book -- one of the characters expressed a pro-vaccine opinion. >> you are kidding. >> they didn't want to pollute their kids' minds with the idea of getting a vaccine is a good idea. >> were they successful in banning the book? >> no. blocking the event. >> they canceled the event because you mentioned a vaccine. >> the stepfather doesn't want the vaccine. the kid is begging him. key west got ravaged by covid. we had over 85,000 deaths in florida from covid. he had seen his other friends get sick and begged the stepdad to get the vaccine. he didn't, ended up sick and in icu. as a kid, you reflect on that. that was the entire subversive message. >> a library, bookstore? who canceled? >> it was for a series of schools. >> wow. >> i'm curious at your take on this focus on libraries. i'm willing to bet that a huge chunk of the parents that are complaining about libraries are doing nothing to get their children in libraries. they are busy letting the screens take over and allowing them, in my opinion, too much time on screens. there's a disconnect here that these kids are getting stuff online that make whatever they get in a book look like nothing. i'm constantly trying to get my grandchildren to love reading, to love the act of sitting down with a book, whether it's an electronic book or a good old paper book, to read. it seems so weird to me that these people have decided to focus on libraries when i think right now there's a record low number of kids under 17 actually going to libraries or using libraries. >> there's two points. one is that some of the books they are going after are not being taught necessarily in class. they are just available in the libraries. i'm on a long list of more distinguished writers from judy bloom, to alice walker, to tony morrison. many people get up as parents and possibly grandparents, but they don't have kids in the school system. they have been mobilized to show up. in florida, they brought a preacher from north carolina in who is a right wing conservative preacher who is on his podcasts drooling about this all the time. they brought him to a local school board to have him read from the book. it's theater. it's cynical theater at the cost of, to me, of the children's freedom and liberty to read. we also -- we have never given kids enough credit for what they read and how they absorb it. we think desantis' thing about indoctrination. it's actually, in his case, projection. that's what they are trying to do. >> in some cases, it's working. you have outsiders saying what about the vaccine and they cancel your event. it's crazy. >> it's crazy. this is just an adventure story in key west, florida, one of the coolest places you could grow up. it's crazy. i feel bad for the kids. >> you mentioned margaritaville. one of the guys who makes a brief appearance in the book is jimmy buffett. i know he was fighting a private battle. can you tell us about what you knew and about him? >> i knew there was something serious going on. he had been diagnosed four years earlier with a very, very serious and rare kind of skin cancer. they were throwing everything at it. when i would see him, he was -- one of the last times we were down in the bahamas together, he was on one of these -- he was supposed to be taking it easy. there was no such thing. he was on a foil board. it's like an electric surf board. we were supposed to keep an eye on him. he literally disappeared over the horizon. we were looking, where the hell do you think he went? he comes flying in, does a figure out, jumps off, swims to the shore. you would never know the battle he was fighting or how -- what it must have been. he was recording up until the end. last time i saw him, he had a new album coming out. he had that same boyish grin that he always had when he was playing his music. he was in a room full of beautiful guitars. it's a good way to remember him. he didn't give up. for all his laid-back lifestyle, he was tough when he got this disease. >> he made so many people happy. >> he wanted to b remember for making people happy. >> he did that and then some. thank you for sharing. the new book is "wrecker." it's on sale today. everything he does is great. go pick up a copy of it. carl hiaasen, thanks for being here. we will take you into donald trump's campaign event in south carolina yesterday where he went on a bizarre tangent about windmills and whales, confused two different members of the bush family. how bob menendez is explaining the stacks of cash and gold bars federal agents found stashed in his home. quite a morning. we are back in one minute. e a m. we are back in one minute. you're probably not easily persuaded to switch mobile providers for your business. but what if we told you it's possible that comcast business mobile can save you up to 75% a year on your wireless bill versus the big three carriers? it's true. plus, when you buy your first line of mobile, you get a second line free. there are no term contracts or line activation fees. and you can bring your own device. oh, and all on the most reliable 5g mobile network nationwide. wireless that works for you. it's not just possible. it's happening. you wouldn't see it once a year. now they come up on a weekly basis. the windmills are driving them crazy. they are driving the whales i think a little batty. they are washing up on shores at levels never seen before. they want to stop your boats, one in 50 years. can you imagine that? >> donald trump yesterday in south carolina continuing his weird war against windmills. we will have more from his rally including another moment where he was confused about his opponent. this is at least the second time in a week. trump's former defense secretary is defending outgoing joint chiefs of staff mark milley after the former president suggested general milley was a traitor. ahead on "morning joe," president joe biden is expected to make history today as the first sitting president to join a picket line when he visits auto workers in michigan. we will have the latest comments about the strike and where negotiations stand right now. on capitol hill, the clock is ticking. congress is divided on how to avoid a government shutdown before saturday's deadline. today, the house and senate are expected to take two different paths on a funding solution. can they get it together? good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's tuesday, september 26. along with joe, willie and me, we have the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire, eddie glaude junior, jennifer palmieri, she's the co-host of "how to win 2024" and also jon meacham joins us. willie, we got a lot to talk about. we have the former president who seems to be getting a little bit -- i don't know -- confused sometimes about who he is talking about, what era we are in, whether we have fought world war i or world war ii, we are headed into world war iii. seems like he is a little off seine. >> the whales and the windmills. that was, even for him, a tour de force. he was on the campaign trail. he was in south carolina yesterday talking torally. his first event in that state since july. the speech lasted 40 minutes. he talked about the 2016 presidential race and appeared to confuse jeb bush with former george w. bush. >> the beauty was when i came here, everyone thought bush was going to win. they found out trump was up by 50 points. what's going on? because bush supposedly was a military person. he got us into the middle east. how did that work out? >> jonathan, he was talking, of course, about george w. bush. conflated him with jeb bush, who was the governor of florida in march of 2003 when the united states went into iraq. for the talk about joe biden's age, if you sit and watch those clips but the 40 minutes in south carolina, red flags. >> trump is right about the windmills and whales. i don't know what you are talking about there. you are right. it's a couple things. there's a lot of discussion about president biden's age and whether or not he seems to be slipping at all, whether he is up for the job. there was a moment last week where eyebrows were raised. at a fund-raiser the president had in new york city, he told the same story twice, seemingly not remembering he told it the first time. that says, president biden has been able to do the job. his record speaks for itself. i think we have been giving donald trump a pass because he has always spoken like a crazy person. if you read the transcripts of his speeches, they are very hard to follow. he is so all over the place, it's tough to pin down what he means. these red flags, these verbal missteps, have picked up in the last few weeks. you are right, the windmills and wales things are nut. the world war ii reference last week. this one confusing the bushes. the list goes on and on. one does wonder, as much as polls suggest voters don't care about trump's age, he is only three years younger than president biden. if biden is questioned about his fitness for the job, then voters should take the same look at trump who has been all over the place in recent weeks and seems to be -- his social media posts show this -- under strain from the legal issues. >> that's the real point here. joe, for all -- the whale thing was bizarre. he said windmills with driving whales crazy, so they are washing up on shore. >> he is projecting again. >> there we go. >> this is a man not only who is advancing in years, as you watch the performances, but he has a lot on his mind having nothing to do with whales or jeb bush or obama or world war ii. >> he is projecting. he usually proje f on people he is running against. now he is projecting himself on whales. yes, donald, it's the whales who are crazy right now. whales are -- think about this. it goes back to what we said yesterday, which is, joe biden is sitting there playing by markus of queensbury rules. the gdp is going to rise -- that's how i talk, but i'm not running for anything. he needs to do better. he needs to start hitting donald trump back. there's a reason why those polls look the way they are. they all talk about biden being too old. biden needs to talk about trump being too old. listen, this is not hard to do. he doesn't have to wait for the writers to get off the picket lines to write his material. everybody, this is what donald trump thinks and what he has thought over the last two weeks. that he ran a primary contest against george w. bush in 2016, and he beat him even though george w. bush had gotten us into the middle east. and then he thinks alternatively that he ran the general election in 2016 against barack obama. and he said last week, nobody thought we could beat barack obama, but we did. he stumbled around with obama's name. then he went on to say, he obam. of course, on to the part about where joe biden was going to get us into world war ii in 2024. the reason why those numbers are higher and the reason why people are comparing hunter biden's laptop to stealing nuclear secrets is because the republicans have been hammering joe biden over this nonstop. the white house has considered itself above the fray. this is like mike dukakis in 1988 using his push lawn mower while george h.w. bush was going around talking about how polluted boston harbor was and talking about -- going from one flag factory to another flag factory. jon meacham, by the time it was over -- you had michael dukakis, i'm above this. i'm not going to respond to that. you have written 41's biography. you know. by the time dukakis finally started responding, he had lost 20 points in the poll. his 20-point lead was evaporated. you have the biden people talking bidenomics while his sob is being trash and while his age is being trashed. i want to repeat for you. i'm sure you never knew this. donald trump says he ran against george w. bush in the primary and beat him, ran in 2016, ran against obama, he beat him, ran against obama in 2020 and beat him, no matter what the press and pundits say. this is a guy who is terribly confused. again, we don't hear that so much because the biden campaign is playing by other rules. >> i will tell you one thing, one of the great primary races ever would have been george w. bush versus donald trump. that would have been a cage match. >> excuse me for cutting you off. that would have been over in five minutes. donald trump would have started talking and george w. bush would have looked at him and he would have gone, and i'm the one that's supposed to be dumb. he would have gutted him. george w. bush would have finished donald trump's campaign in five minutes. go ahead. >> i think that, too. i think george w. bush is the one republican who could have undercut this populism. he worried about populism. he talks about how what happened late in his administration helped create the conditions for this. he is clear-eyed about it. look, i think the thing that worries me the most is not what trump says when he is confused but what he says when he is not. there's this series of incredibly sulfurous, unconstitutional, anti-democratic assertions that he is making about what he wants to do if, in fact, he returns to power, which is an entirely plausible possibility. the focus, it seems to me -- the task of citizenship should be, what is he saying? what does he want to do? we are talking about somebody -- we can't say this enough. right? it's like the daily office. the morning prayer, always say this. there was a mob attacking the capitol of the united states, something that did not happen in 1860 but it happened in 2021 because of this bizarre and yet all too real political power and reach that donald trump has. we can wish it away. but that won't make any difference at all. i had a seventh grade history teacher who said if ifs, ands and buts were candy and nuts, we would have a happy christmas. who wants to think about donald trump more except for donald trump? >> if i can interrupt you. i want to talk specifics with you. first of all, he is talking about the execution of mark milley, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. he would have been executed because mark milley wasn't going along with his plan to overthrow the government. yesterday, he ranted he was going to take over msnbc and nbc if he won the election. he was ranting on his social media posts and claimed the networks are the enemy of the peop. >> here we go again. >> the phrase that stalin used and khrushchev said. in the soviet union, a dangerous political phrase that he outlawed the use of it. he said nbc and msnbc should be investigating for treason. here we go. in two days, he threatens -- says the chairman of the joint chiefs probably should be executed and then he says the news network that is most critical of him should be taken off the air. this is not a reach. i could go back and talk about nazi germany. if people can't start drawing parallels, you are just stupid or you have your head in the sand or you are one of them. i would rather look at what's going on in hungary. he started with the public, the npr stations, took them over. they became voices and arms of the state. then he started going over the newspapers. he had -- he basically regulated or taxed one independent newspaper after another independent newspaper out of existence. 100% of the newspapers there are basically state-run, state-owned through these kind of third party supporters, these industries. he has done it with broadcasts, too. 80% are basically his deal. he has almost complete control over the news media. they send out the message for them to follow, and they all follow it. there is no freedom of speech in hungary. do i think donald trump will be allowed to line people up against the wall and shoot them? no. he would like to. i have known him for a long time. he would like to. he is not going to be allowed to. if he says, i'm going to take the fec and bring it to the white house and decide who is going to be on tv and who is not on tv -- >> believe him. >> that's something that republicans -- 50% of americans are supporting him right now despite the fact he steals nuclear secrets and war plans and he says he is going to terminate the constitution. sure, they will let him shut down tv stations. that's where we are. >> to terminate the constitution, that's the key phrase here. that's what he says he wants to do. then there are the folks who say that people like the two of us, all of us are -- we take him too literally, not seriously. where do we start in a mob attacked the capitol of the united states to overturn a free and fair election. the president of the united states pressured officials to find him votes so he would win. that's not hyperbole. right? that's not cable news, liberal fury in the morning. it's just true. if you can't handle that, then the entire experiment is at risk. the entire experiment is at risk. that may sound dramatic. >> no. >> as you were saying, it's just the case. i don't think -- no favors whatsoever in pretending that these are not live il-liberal, unconstitutional forces that he, donald trump, embodies, promulgates. the constitution -- think about this. the constitution, if the numbers are remotely true, is going to come down to a couple of hundred thousand people in five states. right? that's where we are. to some extent, the appeal has to be, if you are one of these folks in michigan, in pennsylvania, in arizona, if you are there, think about it. do you want to terminate the constitution? if you do, you better be sure your team is always going to be in power. the point of law is that it protects you from me and me from you. the strong always become the weak. >> yep. what's being used right now by trumpers could be used 20 years from now by people on the far left. [ no audio ] [ no audio ] >> after stripping power away from the judiciary, what did he say? he said, western democracy doesn't work. we are proud to be an il-liberal democracy. that's where they are. that's where they keep going. that's where donald trump will take the united states of america if elected. >> he is just the kind of leader that donald trump has explicitly touted, vladimir putin, kim jong-un, with the love letters. he likes that kind of guy. he wishes he could be that kind of guy. just to echo what jon and joe said, we have to believe the guy. this isn't 2015 where he is a game show host telling jokes and it's amusing, because it could never happen. he has shown he tried to do it while he was president. we know that if he is elected again, it will be easier for him to do a bunch of this stuff because there will be no general kelly, no general milley, no general mattis, who protect the constitution and the democracy will be to serve this guy. when he talks about wanting to execute mark milley, when he talks about terminating the constitution -- he asked his attorney general to arrest his opponent in october of 2020, joe biden, before the election. these are things he fantasizes about. it will be easier for him to carry out if he is elected again. >> the guardrails are gone. the way his rhetoric sets the stage to increase the intensity of our political season -- i think it increases the specter of violence. when he says, back in the day, general milley could be executed. he is sending messages. it's a mob boss formulation. i think it's really important -- joe makes an interesting point. an important point is that the biden administration, the biden campaign has to go after him. they have to do it in such a way that they don't look like dukakis. they have to do it in their lane. we have to begin to hit the threat head on. it's not just simply policy. it's existential. it's visceral. it's in the gut. what jon is saying has to be interpreted in a way it hits viscerally, in the gut. >> for two years, officials have warned me, they are afraid of the thought of political violence heading into this election, particularly with the indictments against trump. the threat against mark milley, where does that stand in terms of violating trump's gag order. to the point of what the biden administration should be doing, they are going to speak about threats to democracy this week. the president will be in arizona paying tribute to senator mccain as well as once again warning about what could happen. to joe's point, should -- let me ask you drawing upon your communications background. should president biden and his team be highlighting these missteps from trump, raising the mental acuity, his fitness for office? the fear is that white house aides -- they say when the issue of age comes up, it's bad for biden, even though they keep making the same points for trump. >> oh, god. >> we know what joe things. >> help me. oh, my god. that's loser talk. >> right. it's also the biggest issue that's there. biden has started talking about it more, which is good. joking about it. whether the president himself points out, this guy is also old and also having -- also misstep missteps, i'm not sure i would use the president for that. but i think -- i do have a concern. let's look at your -- the nbc poll, for example, biden's favorability dropped three points to the lowest ever in the nbc poll. you look at trends. normally, when your favorability rating drops, you can point to gas prices or some problem that explains why there's a drob. nothing has happened that should make the president's approval rating drop. there's nothing outside of politics that's happened. the republican attacks might be having an impact. the stuff about hunter might be having an impact. that suggests you should be fighting back. you don't have to use the president for that. there are surrogates, people who can go on television who are not the president that can make the points that joe did earlier. but i think the way the white house is looking at this is, we have 13 months between now and november -- the election in 2024 to recreate or create a new majority coalition that will vote for biden. they think what you need to do now is you need to make sure those people know that there's a good reason to vote for joe biden, because everything he has accomplish and will do, not just because trump is bad. if you just do trump is bad, that's going to drag everybody down and make everybody feel like their choices are bad and they want people to feel good about the choice. they want to do that work now. i think you can do both at once. you can do that work. a lot of that happens through digital ads or other kinds of communication. the president can be talking about what -- he can hit hard today. first president of the united states to go to a picket line. it's a sacrament for union workers for a president to do that. he can hit trump hard. then you can have other people that are making this argument about how incredibly unfit that he is. >> great points. i will say, what i learned very quickly in politics is, if you run away from an attack ad, if you run away from an attack, you lose. it always catches you from behind. you always lose. if you go right into the attack and use it and pummel it and turn it against your opponent, you win. i've seen it happen time and time again. i remember being attacked in 1996 for being part of the mean republicans who cut medicare. the afl\cio spent hundreds of millions of dollars attacking republicans who cut medicare. even though the medicare trustees said we had to lower the rate of growth on medicare, or else it would go bankrupt. so we did the right thing. my friends who were freshmen that year with me, they ran away from the attack. i ran straight into it. after being attacked in my first debate, i said, every debate, i'm not going to it talk about education, defense, anything but -- i'm going it talk about why i had to lower medicare costs. that's all i'm going to talk about. i don't really care, because i'm -- you are not going to be able to lie about me. i did it throughout the entire campaign. i told this story to some people on the show before. right before the election i got a phone call. i was asked, what are you doing on senior citizens? i panicked. oh, boy, maybe i shouldn't have talked so much about medicare. i asked why. he said, because of the 200 people we polled, you have the highest number among senior citizens. it's outrageously high. what did you do? i said, i told them the truth. i told them the truth. i won by another massive landslide. nobody ran against me again. that was the end basically. no democrat took me on after that. i ran two more races unopposed by democrats. that's why i think they need to go straight into the fire. if i were joe biden, i wouldn't let an opportunity go up. somebody asks about donald trump, i say, ask obama that question because that's who he thinks he is running against. if it's about the republican party, i don't know. talk to donald trump, he says he beat george w. bush in 2016, says he beat obama in 2016. you have to hammer it, hammer it, hammer it. then after that, you can turn and tell people how well you are doing. i want to underline this point that you said. joe biden's numbers, regardless of what the polls are saying, are not going down because of the economy. i can show you numbers that say three out of four americans think they are doing pretty well right now in the economy. his numbers are going down because this, he is too old, message has stuck. if the white house wants to get on the right side of the numbers, they have to confront this head on. this president has succeeded in historic ways. look at the midterm election, look at bipartisan legislation that is passing. he has done more than any president this century. look at a lot of economic data, it's positive. they look at joe biden and they hear what republicans and fox news and donald trump are saying all the time, he is too old. we aren't a vital nation anymore. they have to fight that head on. >> i think -- he did last week. it can't all be on the president. >> that's right. >> he needs to be president. he can't take all this on. all donald trump has to be is a candidate. donald trump is acting as if the general election started. when that happens, then you need people other than the president that are all over msnbc and all over the other cable networks that are hammering these arguments. they can't have it all just rest on biden. how american military veterans could be impacted by a government shutdown. ali vitali digging into that for us. she joins the conversation straight ahead on "morning joe." whenever you're hungry, there's a deal on the subway app. buy one footlong, get one 50% off in the subway app today. now that's a deal worth celebrating. man, what are you doing?! get it before it's gone on the subway app. ♪♪ it's not just designed to look good... get it before it's gone on the subway app. it's built to command attention. it's not just a comfortable interior... it's a quiet refuge. they're not just headlights... they light the way forward. the new fully electric audi q8 e-tron models... - custom ink helps us motivate our students with custom gear. we love how custom ink takes care of everything we need, so we can focus on the kids. - [narrator] custom ink has hundreds of products to help you feel connected. upload your logo or start your design today at customink.com senator bob menendez refusing to step down, even as a growing number of democrats are calling on him to resign. he held a press conference yesterday where he said he has no plans to give up his senate seat and denied any wrongdoing. the new jersey lawmaker attempted to explain the nearly $500,000 in cash prosecutors said was found in his home stuffed in envelopes and hidden in clothing. >> for 30 years, i have withdrawn thousands of dollars in cash from my personal savings account, which i have kept for emergencies and because of the history of my family in cuba. this may seem old-fashioned, but these were monies drawn from my personal savings account, based on the income that i have lawfully derived over those 30 years. i look forward to addressing other issues at trial. >> two more senate democrats have called on menendez to resign. senator menendez has broken the public trust and should resign. and the shocking and specific allegations against senator menendez have compromised his capacity to be an effective senator. last night, nancy pelosi called on menendez to step down while comparing it to george santos. >> if we're going to say if you are indicted, you had you resign, we have a situation in the house, sadly, because of the challenges we face, because the skepticism that exists in our country about governance, about this republican party that doesn't believe in governance, doesn't believe in science, wants to take down everything in order to give tax breaks to the wealthiest, we have to stay focused on that. it would be a good idea if he did resign. >> nancy pelosi calling on him to "the new york post" not buying he had that hidden because he is from cuba. you have an underground bunker full of gold bars. as senator menendez said, for a rainy okay. >> i have the gold on one side. i was a braves fan. we went to see the braves play a lot. if that team can be beaten that badly, who is to say that the authorities won't come and beat us as badly and take our money? then i got gold bars, they are really heavy. sometimes i do curls with them. i want to be this shape and everything. you can do a lot with gold. i've been a falcons fan since 1966. you see them getting slaughtered on the field. you sit there going, well, if that could happen to them, that could happen to me. his cuba explanation makes perfect sense. doesn't it? >> when the falcons went out the lead in the super bowl, it got weird after that. >> i personally deliver in a brinks truck survival seeds. dump them there. the survival seed, our 15 ton. gold -- >> okay. >> this argument is no dumber than bob menendez saying, i'm from cuba, so i keep gold bars and cash in my house. come on. come on. >> not buying it. are you? >> the best part is the etail his google search history revealed, how much is a gold bar worth. the senator has gotten out of trouble before faces a tougher hill to climb this time. i think it's interesting that we are starting to see democrats pressure him to resign. there's a couple days of silence. senator fetterman was the first to go there. now senator welch as well as we heard from pelosi, starting to have some names add to the roster. white house has said -- they acknowledge this is a serious accusation but they will stay out of it. >> you have the half a million dollars, gold bars, influence peddling with egypt. all of this against the backdrop of the crisis we face as a democracy, whether it's an ethics issue or criminal issue, given the crisis we face as a country, he has to step down. back in 2016, brian williams, a surgeon, attended to police officers ambushed during a deadly shooting. >> this killing, it has to stop. black men dying and being forgotten, people retaliating against the people that are sworn to defend us. we have to come together and end all this. >> dr. williams joins us with a revealing new book on his personal struggle in supporting police while at the same time fearing law enforcement as a black man in america. that conversation is just ahead on "morning joe." and struggle with cpap. you should check out inspire. no mask. no hose. just sleep. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com what did we do before viasat satellite internet? well... we borrowed. yes!...we borrowed. we borrowed the internet. we'd borrow from the library, the local coffee shop, our friends down the road. i think i got a strong 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seem any closer to a true consensus. we did hear from speaker mccarthy yesterday who continued to sound notes of optimism. what's fascinating this week is, yes, watching the ways that mccarthy tries to herd the cats within his conference but the way they interact with the plan that schumer and others are putting to the. we are talking about a continuing resolution, something that would keep the lights on for 30 or 45 minutes to buy these folks time to actually do these appropriations bills. they are not fast processes here. if mccarthy were to take the life line that the senate could extend to him, it would help on the government funding front. it would not help in terms of keeping his job. the word continuing resolution or cr as we shorthand it, is something that could have several members, including matt gaetz, trigger a motion to vacate, fire him and you are back in a chaos standpoint. that's the point i'm keeping in mind here is that the shutdown is one piece of this. the back half is the open question of if mccarthy will keep his job. lemire asked a good question this morning. if not mccarthy, then who? i will tell you what i told him which is, i have no idea. the chaos for some of the conservative members is truly the point. that's chaos, certainly, in the house. >> ali, some veterans you have spoken to say they are worried about facing greater difficulties in getting care within an already strained system. certainly, there will be real chaos if there's a shutdown or if there are major cuts. what are you hearing? >> that's right. while the political chaos is one thing we often focus on, shutdowns are bad for americans. i have covered so many of these not in washington, outside the beltway. people are hurting. here is the thing. shutdowns cause new problems and they can make old problems more dire than they are. >> we started advocating for this v.a. clinic in 2003. >> it took more than two decades to get a new v.a. clinic. >> we used to go to meetings. we started joking about hopefully it will open up before we push up daisies. we need this clinic to open with doctors, fully staffed. >> this rural community, about an hour from san francisco, falls prey to a national trend. veterans struggling to access health care because there aren't enough providers to see them. >> we have the longest wait times anywhere in california. if you are in stockton, you have to wait 80 or 90 days or 100 days. i talked to a veteran what wasn't able to get a refill on his diabetes medication. he ended up losing his leg. >> the number of working primary care physicians has been cut in half just this year along. more than 2,500 v.a. facilities faced severe occupational shortages. a 22% increase from a year before. the year before. the resulting backlog, wait times and rarely returned inquiries is why dozens of people packed into this town hall. >> my husband is a vietnam vet. he's 100% disabled. >> before the coronavirus pandemic, her husband's care was consistent. >> you've seen the system can work. >> it worked very well. then when covid happened, everything changed. every call and concern was never answered. >> the local va is increasing physician pay and expanding access to telehealth. inaction from congress could make this worse. what does this town hall have to do with the government funding fight? >> this is a canary in the coal mine. >> the government promised one thing, but it's not fulfilling it. >> you heard what he said at the end of our piece. he calls it heartbreaking to know that he served and now these institutions that are supposed to serve him, are doing anything put. harter is trying to put an amendment in the va appropriations bill to better study the scope of this issue. while petitioning to va, he's trying to do that. if furloughs happen at the va level, this makes a bad thing worse, mika. >> ali vitali, thank you very much. coming up, new details on the deal between studios and writers. andrew ross sorkin joins 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( ♪♪ ) constant contact. helping the small stand tall. ♪ that first time you take a step back and see everything you've accomplished. i made that. with your very own online store. i sold that. and you can manage it all in one place. i built this. and it was easy with godaddy. i am doing this. with a partner that puts you first. start for free at godaddy.com/sell ♪ it's not just designed to look good... it's built toe command attention. it's not just a comfortable interior... it's a quiet refuge. they're not just headlights... they light the way forward. the new fully electric audi q8 e-tron models... my name is kilah engelke. i'm a cement mason by trade. all the road builders are insanely busy right now. if someone comes in wanting or needing a job, we've got them. the infrastructure law that joe biden got passed is putting people back to work. look at all of the bridges, look at all the roadways, look at all of the people that are working. all of that's pretty awesome. to have a president like joe biden that's fighting for good jobs - it's huge. i'm joe biden and i approve this message. you have a better chance of being struck by lightning than hitting a whale with your boat. there has only been -- listen to this -- one such whale killed off the coast of south carolina in the last 50 years. on the other hand, their windmills are causing whales to die in numbers never seen before. nobody does anything about that. they're washing up on shore. i saw it this weekend. three of them came up. you wouldn't see it once a year. now they're coming up on a weekly basis. the windmills are driving them crazy. they're driving the whales, i think, a little batty. they're washing up on shore at levels never seen before. windmills! they want windmills all over the place that ruin our fields, kill our birds. a windmill will kill many bald eagles . they say the noise drives them crazy. try going to the bottom of a windmill some day. it's not a pretty picture. those bird killing machines go round and round. like a cemetery. we put a little statue for the poor birds. we demand to go on our prairies and our mountains and our plains, only to realize they're killing all the birds. the energy is intermittent. i know a lot about windmills. >> did he just say i know a lot about wind? >> sure did, yeah. >> okay. look at donald trump's odd obsession with windmills, which has you heard at the top, he took to a new level yesterday in south carolina, adding whales to his vendetta against what are actually wind turbines. willie. [ laughter ] >> i have no comment. i don't know what to say. he started with saying they're killing our beautiful bald eagles. now the whales, if i'm following the logic, they're being driven crazy. it's a psychological problem with the whales. they're just giving themselves up to the beaches. >> wind turbines tend to be above the water. whales tend to be in the water. there is a little back story here. the origin people believe about donald trump's hatred of windmills is because of a lawsuit filed by the scottish government by his golf course in aberdeen. that's the origin story. >> good analysis. >> always goes back to the golf club. >> yep. good analysis. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east coast. willie, we are watching president biden today doing something that hasn't been done before by a president. >> it will be a very interesting week. president biden today, former president trump tomorrow. president biden will join striking autoworkers on the picket line in wayne county michigan. uaw president shawn fain is expected to be there. tens of thousands of autoworkers walked off the job two weeks ago, demanding higher wages and better benefits, which president biden says he supports. >> i think the uaw gave up an incredible amount back when they were going under. they saved the automobile industry. i think that now that the industry is roaring back, they should participate in the benefit of that. take a look at the significant increase in salaries for executives and growth of the industry. they should benefit from it. so, yes, i support the uaw. >> according to the white house, this is the first time a sitting president has visited a picket line. in 2019, biden joined strikers including a picket line in kansas city. joining us is senator debbie stabenow from michigan. good to have you with us. obviously huge impacts of the strike. what is the significance of the president being there today? >> willie, it's always great to be with all of you. it is historic that we have the president of the united states that will be joining with the union on the picket line. he's been overseeing the largest manufacturing renaissance in our history for all of us in our lifetimes, creating more jobs. we want to make sure they're good-paying jobs. on the other side, you have donald trump saying let them go bankrupt and instead of the autos sending jobs to mexico, they should just move to southern states with nonunion plants. this is the guy that's coming in wednesday night to a nonunion facility to say he supports our workers. so i'm really glad that president biden is in michigan today. the president of the uaw is welcoming him with open arms, as are the members. i think it's important. >> senator, good morning. let's talk about the economics of this strike that is now two weeks on. doesn't seem there's been much progress made. what are your concerns if this strike does continue? >> i think there is progress being made. i mean, certainly the uaw leadership has specifically said that there is a movement with ford which has caused them not to expand the strike with ford. i know they're still working diligently with gm and stellantis to get things done as quickly as possible. we need our industry to be successful. we also need our workers to be successful and fully share in what's happening. in the long run, strikes are always hard for sure, but in the long run, having better pay, having better benefits is going to help the economy. we put more money in people's pockets and then they're going to go out and buy more things. it's not trickle down economics which donald trump and the republicans embrace. it's focusing on the middle class. that really is what the strike is about. >> you were not among the 28 senators who called for joint ev battery plants to be included in the contract. explain your position. >> i strongly support that. senator peters and i sent our own letter from the senate. there was a house letter that went out. i strongly support that. it's very important whether it's a facility like what's being proposed in michigan with ford where they are contracting for technology or whether it's a joint venture, we need to make sure the uaw, that workers are fully a part of what's going on. that means under the overall agreement with the uaw and they need to fully participate in the future. let me just say too that our colleagues on the other side of the aisle talk about china all the time. china is rushing into this market. they're not making more evs than we're seeing from anybody else and they are trying to get in the united states. the truth is, eventually we're going to have electric vehicles. the question is, are they american made or chinese made? we want them to be american made. this president is leading an effort on production incentives to make sure we are making things in america. that's the vision. >> as you say, president biden will be there a short time from now in the state of michigan to support those striking autoworkers. senator, i want to ask you about senator robert menendez incited the other day on serious charges of bribery. just within the last five minutes, your colleague said she believes senator menendez should step down. what's your view on this? should he resign? >> first of all, these are very serious charges, no question about it. i believe senator menendez and the people of new jersey will have the ultimate decision. we're not attacking the fbi or the justice department. we take this very seriously, counter to what is happening with republicans in terms of protecting donald trump and going after our justice system. we need to be focusing on making sure the system works. >> your former colleague claire mccaskill is here saying as a united states senator you can't have somebody pay for your lunch, let alone what senator menendez is accused of doing. do you agree he should step down? >> as far as i'm concerned, we will let this move forward this week and we'll see what happens. >> so not yet for you? >> not yet. >> i wanted to ask you this question. how can you justify saying not yet given the way in which democrats have responded to donald trump? >> well, we face a very serious democracy. i don't see senator menendez or any of us attacking our democracy or promoting january 6th or saying president biden wasn't duly elected or suggesting violence against the joint chiefs of staff or the fbi or the justice department. so in my judgment, i mean, this is something that we will thoughtfully address on our side. but we are not in any way, in any way looking at these things the way that people on the other side are doing in terms of attacking the justice department in our very democracy, which as you know and i have said so many times is under attack. we have to take this very seriously. it's like nothing we've seen before, frankly. we've got to make sure that these folks are not in charge in the house going forward and that donald trump is not reelected. >> senator, as for your colleagues in the house and the potential government shutdown, do you see a way forward with this? or are we going to have a shutdown? >> well, we're very, very concerned about a shutdown and what it looks like from the house of representatives last night. let me give a shout out to the senate. we have been working together in a bipartisan way. every single one of the 12 appropriations bill have been brought out of committee, almost all of them unanimously brought to the floor. it's historic. i should note that we have a republican ranking member, susan collins, and a democratic chair, two women. it's the first time the budget, since i've been here, has been on time. just saying. >> i'm just saying. >> so we are moving ahead. we've been working all weekend with senator schumer and senator mcconnell to come forward with what will be a very short-term, unfortunately, continuing resolution. there's a number of things the house needs to join us on in terms of doing their jobs. but whether he send something to them. frankly, this is up to speaker mccarthy. does he want to govern? does he want to work with democrats to stop a shutdown or not? the last time republicans caused a shutdown, it cost $11 billion to our economy. i sure hope that's not going to happen again. >> senator debbie stabenow of michigan. thank you very much. let's bring in peter baker. let's talk a little bit about what we just heard from the senator, especially her comments about senator menendez. i think this is going to be a big conversation as the questions surrounding what exactly he was doing with gold bars and tons of cash and how democrats approach that case versus the former president. >> yeah. i think the senator makes a good point in the sense that they're not attacking the system. they're not saying the fbi needs to be defunded. they're not calling the prosecutors deranged. having said that it does, of course, undermine their ability to say that the republicans are nominating somebody who's been indicted and how is that representative of what they want to have for their party when many of them are not willing to call for senator menendez stepping down? it's going to raise questions that will be challenging to answer. to their benefit, they can make the argument saying it shows the biden justice department, as trump likes to put it, is going after democrats. it just muddies the water. the trump campaign wants the water to be muddy so they can say everybody does it and just don't pay attention to it, it's just politics. >> let's turn to senator stabenow's state of michigan where biden will visit and stand with workers on the picket line. it seems to me this is the beginning of the general election, donald trump heading to michigan tomorrow. talk to us about what your sources are telling you about the thinking behind biden's visit, and how nervous are they about potentially the rank and file of the union breaking for donald trump in a state like michigan where a democrat has to win. >> absolutely has to win. that's why general election candidates are there today and tomorrow. it's a must win for both, both competing for the same voters. biden would like the leadership to endorse him, but really it's about the membership. trump of course trashes the uaw leadership but says the membership should support him because he's on their side. in 2016 he did a good job of building inroads into the union. the renaissance of manufacturing with president biden, that's the argument he's going to be making. it's also about income inequality and getting back some of the profits the industry itself is seeing. i can't remember any other president walking a picket line while in office. normally a president trying to stay above it to some extent. actually getting out there like this is a statement that he's making that he really is going to compete for those votes. >> let me ask you about a conversation we've been having all morning here about the white house approach to trump. we've been playing clips about him sounding frankly incoherent at some events. and his indictments, 91 felony charges against him. is there any sense at the white house they need to be more aggressive about trump than standing back and sort of letting him self immolate politically. >> that would give donald trump the ammunition he needs to say, see, it's all about politics, it's biden prosecuting his potential opponent in next year's election. so you won't hear them talk about that. they do believe they need to take on trump and maga world, if you will. you'll hear that this week. on thursday, the president is going to arizona where he's going to invoke john mccain and talk about democracy. that's meant to contrast him against donald trump. he won't probably talk about the criminal cases, i would imagine, but he'll talk about the stakes for democracy if you elect a president who doesn't believe in it. that will be the argument biden will make. so they are going to be a little more aggressive in taking on trump even if they're not directly talking about these criminal justice charges. >> peter baker, thank you so much for being on this morning. in the midst of those tense contract negotiations with striking autoworkers, ford motor company announced it is suspending construction of a multibillion dollar battery factory in michigan because of concerns the plant might not be able to make products at a competitive price. let's bring in andrew ross sorkin to talk about that and how it connects with everything else going on with the big three. >> well, this is the key issue. as i was listening to your conversation earlier about these strikes and president biden joining the strikers today, the big overlay on the entire conversation has been the future of evs and frankly the president's support for evs. onne side you have the president supporting evs, but at some point his support and the automobile makers' decision to pursue the ev market is what may ultimately undermine some of the strikers or the workers' concerns and their ability to capture the kind of economics they're seeking, in large part because the ev market is such that there are not profits in that market. we are now about to enter this transition their period. you have the automakers saying we're going down this path but this path is not going to be a profitable path for quite some time. meantime, workers want 40% more money than before when profits we had in the past may not be profits we're going to get in the future. they talk about the idea that manufacturing evs in china is $7 an hour is what employees are getting paid there. of course, here, it will be a lot, lot more. that's what's happening in terms of the dialogue behind the scenes. >> so you're writing about the power of unions. there's a number of strikes happening in different sectors. what do you make of it? >> we're in a moment where workers have the upper hand in large part because employees and workers and the employment rate is so high. unemployment is so low. ing a tight labor market is giving employees for the first time the leverage, the pressure to be able to say, hey folks, we need to be paid a lot more than we've been paid all of these years. you would think that would be something the president could campaign on. at the same time, as wages go up, one of the things that is also a piece that the president is grappling with is inflation. if wages go up, that's inflationary pressure on the economy. things start to cost more. you're going to see that out of the hollywood strike where writers and employees are going to be paid more. they've gotten mostly what they want. we saw it in the ups strike. workers there are going to be paid $170,000 driving trucks and a lot of folks can look at that on an individual basis and say that's a great thing. but it also means shipping costs for everything is going to go up. there's a real question about what that looks like. president biden is clearly behind the workers, but all of a sudden president trump may very well be too. we'll see how that debate plays out. >> in the context of that, the piece you've just written and the writers guild having a deal in place in principle here to get what they want, what about the actors? with the writers, you're going to need the actors to come back. >> that debate has not begun in earnest. i think we're going to see them get back to negotiating sometime this week perhaps. one thing that's so interesting about all of these strikes is there's a knock-on effect. that's a big issue in the uaw contract right now, which is if the uaw gets its contract the way it wants, all of the other automobile makers and automobile suppliers are often teeing off of those contracts. it's not just that wages go up for the specific union. it's oftentimes that wages go up for everybody. that becomes a benefit, of course, if you're in that industry. the flip side is it becomes an inflationary impact for the rest of the economy. >> andrew ross sorkin, thank you very much. coming up on "morning joe," it was an ambush that shocked the city of dallas and the nation. seven years ago, five police officers were shot and killed during what had been a peaceful protest. our next guest, trauma surgeon brian williams, tried to save the lives of the white police officers that night. his new book details his experience with the tragedy and his personal struggle to support police. that conversation is next. to sut police that conversation is next. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh? ♪ bye, uncle limu. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ it's been more than seven years since five police officers in dallas were killed during an ambush attack at the end of a peaceful protest in the deadliest incident for u.s. law enforcement since 9/11. officials said the heavily armed sniper set out to kill as many white officers as he could following a demonstration against the shootings of black men in louisiana and minnesota that week in july of 2016. now the doctor who led the trauma team that value i can't wantly valiantly tried to save the lives of the officers shot described in a new book what he witnessed. it's entitled "the bodies keep coming." dr. brian williams reveals deeply personal details about the grief and anger of being a black doctor on the front lines of trauma care. in the days that followed that attack in dallas, dr. williams expressed his frustrations at an emotional press conference. >> i abhor what has been done to these officers and i grieve with their families. i understand the anger and the frustration and distrust of law enforcement, but they are not the problem. the problem is the lack of open discussion about the impact of race relations in this country. and i think about it every day. it weighs on my mind constantly. this killing, it has to stop. black men dying and being forgotten, people retaliating against the people that are sworn to defend us, we have to come together. >> dr. williams joins us now. he's also running for congress in texas's 32nd district. we thank you for coming on the show. i'm going to start with july 7th, 2016. i would like for you to describe for us what you confronted in that e.r. and why you knew you had to write it down and also do more. >> well, july 7th, 2016, it's one of those nights that is always with me. i think about it every day. our teams are trained to deal with these multiple shootings, but that night was something different. losing three police officers that night, i had to do something i've done way too many times which is change out of bloody scrubs, put on clean scrubs, button up my white coat and talk to a family and deliver the news of someone they cared about being lost to gun violence. it was a pivot point for me. afterwards i found a quiet corner of the hospital and i fell to the floor and i was crying. it was one of the nights i was overcome with emotion. in the aftermath i realized that i as a trauma surgeon could only do so much within the hospital to promote healing in the community and do more work within the community. >> now you're running for congress. you have been a trauma surgeon for decades. your book is called "the bodies keep coming." we have an epidemic of mass shootings in this country. our kids are afraid to go to school. and yet so many in congress seem so incapable of doing anything on this front except for small measures. why do you think you're different? >> my background is something that will be totally unique in congress. you can learn more about that at dr. brian williams for congress dotcom. i'm a veteran. i've trained on these weapons. as a trauma surgeon, i've dealt with the carnage up close and personal. i've also served in congress as an advisor where i had the chance to work on legislation to work on gun safety in this country. i bring a perspective to congress that is absent right now, one that we can put forth to keep our children and communities safe. >> i was remembering that press conference because so many of us took notice of it back in july of 2016 when usually you have trauma surgeons come out and explain what they saw and extend their regrets and sympathy to the families. why were you compelled to make that statement beyond the medical side of that story about the societal piece? >> actually, i initially refused to go to the press conference. it was my wife who compelled me to attend and be present so the nation could see there was a black doctor trying to save these police officers, because there was a lot about race and policing mixed up with this tragedy. as i sat there throughout the press conference, what was unsaid really didn't sit right with me. we had to address this this gun violence and racial justice and policing, we had to come together to put an end to the escalating violence. in the moment i spoke, assuming that the consequence would be that i would be fired from my job, lose friends and colleagues. but in that moment, if i didn't say it then, nothing else would happen. >> i'm so interested in reading your work. there's something about the relationship between grief and anger in what you're writing, the relationship between gun violence, white supremacy and the bodies you treat. talk about what you're trying to do with this book, not just running for office, but what you're trying to get us to pinpoint, because you've seen the result on your operating table of the way in which gun violence and this ideology has produced the bodies in the wake. talk about what are you're trying to achieve with this book. >> well, it may seem that we're in a hopeless situation, that we have this impossible task to deal with this escalating gun violence. we have right now over 500 mass shootings so far this year. the leading cause of death for children are 1 in 5 americans impacted by gun violence. i want to use this book to show a lens to someone who's dealt with this on the front lines and i've lost family members to gun violence as well. i've seen this from multiple lenses and i want to introduce that to the reader to learn something along the way. it's meant to be hopeful. i provide a road map towards healing. the next question is, what will you do about it? >> let's talk about that, what your vision would be if you do head to capitol hill. right now a legislative body that's gripped in paralysis and government shutdown seems to be on the horizon and an impeachment inquiry of president also seemingly on its way. many people feel the system is broken. how would you try to heal that? >> we are not without options here. we can choose to send leaders who embody this ethos of service before self. i learned this when i served in the military and as a doctor treating patients. what we doing in congress is to serve the country, serve our constituents. we can do better. when it comes to ending gun violence, we need people who know what it's been like. we've been handed this impossible task as trauma surgeons across the country where congress is doing nothing and we have to deal with the mess. it's time for congress to do their job. >> the new book is entitled "the bodies keep coming." it's on sale today. dr. brian h. williams, thank you so much for sharing your story. >> thank you very much for having me. coming up, as teens continue to be bombarded with prompts on their smart phones, a new report is warning parents about the impact those constant alerts have on their children's brains. . ♪ if you struggle with cpap... [man struggles] ...you should check out inspire. no mask. no hose. just sleep. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com sleep more deeply. and wake up rejuvenated. purple mattress's exclusive gelflex grid draws away heat, relieves pressure, and instantly adapts. sleep better, live purple. visit purple.com or a mattress store near you. live look at los angeles at 6:41 a.m. it's no surprise that teenagers spend a lot of time on their phones, but it's how apps are competing for that time and attention that is causing new concerns for parents. correspondent kate snow has more. >> reporter: it's a defining feature of a generation, kids constantly scrolling, messaging, playing games, watching videos. now a new report is shining a light on just how much phones are trying to grab our kids' attention. common sense media tracked the android phones of about 200 kids 11 to 17 to see what they're actually doing. 97% used their phones during school hours. almost 60% used them between midnight and 5:00 a.m. on school nights. here's the most striking headline. more than half the kids got 237 notifications or more every day with some receiving more than 4500. researchers say snapchat and discord sent the most notifications. >> the business model of social media is to keep you on the platform so they can sell you ads. it's really an arms race for your attention. >> reporter: not all notifications are created equal. teens told researchers it's easy to ignore more personal alerts, but when it's a direct link to your friends, they're drawn to their phones. does it make you want to look? >> yeah. >> reporter: this 14-year-old wasn't part of the study, but like the kids in the study, her top social media app is tiktok. >> what is it about tiktok that you love? >> that feeling of indulgence when you're scrolling through the videos and how you get so pulled into it. it's really interesting. >> reporter: she spends a lot of time on the app, which was news to her mother. >> i'm shocked. i feel like i'm waking up to this news. i think a lot of moms, if their kids told them exactly what they're doing, would have that feeling. >> reporter: nbc news reached out to social media companies. tiktok says it sets a 60-minute daily screen time limit on teens. but teens can enter a pass code to continue watching. on snapshot users have to opt in for notifications. both platforms say the number of notifications can be adjusted. meta tells us it has tools specifically signed to help teens limit their time and minimize notifications. teens are sent a take a break message after a certain amount of time. time limits don't always work. >> i know the password so i can get by the limit. >> do you find yourself putting in the password? >> all the time. >> why? >> i think most of the time i'm just not done watching a video and i'm really invested. i just want more time on my phone. >> reporter: she admits her understanding of social media is limited, making conversations about what apps she uses challenging. >> it is difficult, because the new generation has a lot more cell phones than my generation. >> reporter: common sense is offering questions and talking points to help parents start the conversation, like which apps take up most of their time. >> it's up to you as a parent to have an ongoing and nonjudgmental discussion with your kids and also talking about the positive things they can get from interactions on screens, because that is the life kids are living. up next, she's a businesswoman, author and former super model. now kathy ireland is adding a new title to her resume. adding new title to her resume. ♪ if you struggle. ♪ and struggle. ♪ and struggle with cpap. you should check out inspire. ♪ no mask. no hose. just sleep. inspire. sleep apnea innovation. learn more and view important safety information at inspiresleep.com is it possible my network could take my business learn more and view important safety information to the next level? it is with comcast business. powering all your devices with gig-speed wifi. and you get fast downloads and uploads. pick it up! pick it up! oh we got this! because it's powered by the next generation 10g network. more speed for your business? it's not just possible. it's happening. get started for $59.99 a month for 12 months. plus, ask how to get an $800 prepaid card with a qualifying internet bundle. comcast business, powering possibilities. our next guest knows all about making a successful career pivot. one that was so successful for her that she became one of the wealthiest former supermodels in the world. in the '80s and '90s, kathy ireland graced the covers of magazines like "vogue" and a mademoiselle" and for "sports illustrated." it was in 1993 that she made the return to brand marketing, launching kathy ireland worldwide. her company, which sells everything from clothes to luggage to home goods and more has since taken off, generating an incredible $3.1 billion in revenue in 2021. the brand has crowned kathy as one of america's richest self-made women and she also recently made forbes' third annual 50 over 50 lifestyle list. and kathy ireland joins us now, alongside forbes women editor maggie mcgrath and msnbc contributor and vice chair of the forbes know your value 3050 summit huma abedin. kathy, i'm so excited to ask you this question. welcome back to the show. >> thank you. >> when you -- when you were in your 20s, and starting out in modeling, did you ever imagine your career in your 50s and 60s, did you envision a career in your 50s and 60s and 70s and beyond? >> mika, thank you so much. yes, i did. i didn't know what it was going to look like, but i have to say, mika, last time i was with you, you asked me such a powerful question and i kind of dodged it. you asked me how did i have the courage to have our company, our brand bear my name. and i think -- i'm a slow learner and i process. and thank you for what you do with encouraging us to know our value. that is so important. and truly, mika, humility and knowing our value, they are not mutually exclusive. so, to you, thank you to maggie and huma, 50 over 50, all that you're doing, it is having such an impact. i was -- mika, i was telling maggie and huma, my little sister cynthia, stand-up comic and writer, and hollywood pressures, oh, the main woman character has got to be in her 30s, and she said, please tell mika thank you because knowing your value, she said, no, she's going to be in her 50s. so that's awesome. >> i love this. well, first of all, we need her -- we need to have her on know your value, so huma, maggie, will follow up on that. let's talk about 50 over 50. we would love to meet your sister. but, maggie, explain why kathy was so unbelievably perfect for this year's 50 over 50 list. >> so, mika, you referenced that kathy started her business in 1993, it started with socks in kmart but she has taken the business to new heights over the age of 50. it is basically like a conglomerate. home furniture and bedding and outer wear. it does billions of dollars in sales every year. and i mentioned the outer wear specifically because that was a new category for kathy ireland worldwide last year. in 2022, she launched it with hsn and these were the business developments that we are looking for with the 50 over 50. we aren't looking for people who are resting on their laurels, we're looking for entrepreneurs who are taking new risks, building new business lines, and not resting on the status quo. so, i think kathy really embodies that. >> kathy, take us back to 1993, when you were first contemplating making this change. i know it started with a pair of socks, and kmart, what happened? and what advice do you give women who are thinking about making a career pivot? >> well, thank you, huma and maggie. 1993, i was a pregnant aging model at my kitchen table and we started our brand with a single pair of socks, and i have to say, one of the greatest gifts of that long ago modeling career was all the rejection because when people said it was a really stupid idea, it wasn't going to work, that didn't destroy me or stop me. and what 50 over 50 does, it lets us know women do not have an expiration date. there is no limits. and intellectual property is foundational to our company, it represents $7.8 trillion of the u.s. gdp, that's 41% of our gdp. and that is available to women. so for the woman out there who is thinking, i don't know where to start, i don't have money, i don't know -- take your passion and just keep going and fight through. and i'm so grateful that we have not put limits on what we do. so whether we're working in real estate, our strategy is with our partners at zoom casa.com/kathy, helping families, women get the equity from their home, or whether it is why roku, working at home with just wonderful, great partners, nebraska furniture mart, book shirt hathaway company, fashion with hsn as you shared, just great, great companies, american family insurance, fintech is important for women. and a lot of times people want to put us in a box. it is, like, no, we have to reject that. and -- >> speaking of not being in a box and not putting limits on yourself, last year you stepped into the world of documentaries. you were the executive producer on a anxious nation" which looks at the anxiety epidemic among america's youth. can you talk about why is it important for you to get involved in this project and what did you learn from it? >> thank you, maggie. education is a passion. i've served on boards of education and continue to do so today for over 25 years, mentoring programs. i've never experienced a more difficult time to be a young person or an old person. "anxious nation" is a documentary with laura morton and vanessa roth, oscar winner, and our company presented and helped produce this because we believe it is important to get that message out there. families need help, they need to know they're not alone. >> well, we hope kathy ireland to see you in abu dhabi at our third annual international women's day summit, the 3050 summit. you're invited. thank you for everything you do, thank you for being on this morning. maggie and huma, thank you, both, as well. of course, a reminder, nominations are now open for our 50 over 50 global list. in asia, europe, the middle east, and africa. you can get all the details at know your value.com. finally this hour, a little more news, surrounding new jersey senator bob menendez and the growing calls for him to step down. moments ago, democratic senator jon tester of montana released this statement that reads, i've read the detailed charges against senator menendez and find them deeply disturbing. while he deserves a fair trial, like every other american, i believe senator menendez should resign for the sake of the public's faith in the u.s. senate. this morning, tester and senator tammy baldwin of wisconsin joined three other democratic senators calling for menendez's ouster. this comes after a federal indictment alleged menendez and his wife accepted bribes in exchange for exerting his political influence. menendez has denied the allegations. and even had an explanation for the wads of cash stuffed in his jackets. he said he has no plans to resign. we'll be covering this developing story throughout the morning right here on msnbc. and that does it for us this morning. we'll see you tomorrow. ana cabrera picks up the coverage in one minute. right now on "ana cabrera reports," a president on the picket lines. this hour, president biden will head to michigan to become the first president in modern history to join workers on

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