Two nights from now, this is a second overall debate in the republican president ial primary. Last, time therell eight candidates, this time will be down to seven. Arkansas governor didnt quite make the cut for this one. Of course, one other major candidate is not going to be there, but no need to talk about that since you wont be there. We are going to bring you live analysis of that deba starting at 11 pm eastern on wednesday night. I will be here for that, joined by joy reid and Nicole Wallace and all our friends here at msnbc. Special coverage right after the Republican Debate, 11 00 here wednesday night. I will see you then. Thats going to do it for us for now, now its time for the last word with lawrence odonnell. Good evening. Now its time good evening r. Ill be going head to head with the Republican Debate at ten pm. So, there is the option. Different audience, different world. For anyone who doesnt really hang on every world of the debate, they can watch this. But, rachel, i was hanging on every word of the interviewed Cassidy Hutchinson just now. I met her in the hallway on the way when she was on the way out to go do your show. Ive been reading the book and i am very impressed. It is very consistent. If you were impressed with her testimony to the january Six Committee and what you saw there, the poise and the strength it took to deliver that testimony to tell the truth about what she witnessed. The book is very consistent with that, as was just meeting her in the hallway just now. Did you get to the part where you are in there . I only got to it when someone pointed it out to me and said that you had pointed out to them. Tell lawrence, so lawrence, its page 346. Yeah, i have not finish the book, but she mentions having seen alexder, there it is right there, alexander butterfield. She met him on this program, and i was watching her teify, i just thought, when did we see this before . When did we see this before . We really did with alexander butterfield, and i talked about that on this program, and then they got together because of me talking about it on the program and having mr. Butterfield on the program at age 90 something. She knew that because you had been able to reach him that she might be able to find him to, and he had been her American HistoryMoral Compass for this moment, having had the exact parallel job that she had in the white house. You set on the course knowing that she could actually find him in the world, and, anyways, you have an important cameo there for having nailed that historical parallel in a way that was very resident and important to her. Thats a theme that runs throughout the whole book in terms of having moral courage. They became friends, and mr. Butterfield told me how impressed he was with her. He downplayed his own version of id saying, i didnt have any choice and i just told him the truth. In fact, his testimony played very similarly at the time to Cassidy Hutchinson, and it did for all of us watching. It felt like it took bravery for him to do it. But, watching her, rachel, ive known so many people in these kinds of jobs. But, none as young as she was with that much responsibility. I have just been so impressed with the way she handled it and the way she handled this interview with her tonight. I have to say, theyre just one thing i have to comment on which is the response you just got from her about matt gaetz. I agree with you, as you read the book, matt gaetz is a weird floater in this book. His behavior is weird, it kind of fits with the weirdness aura he has as we observe on him from a distance, he is trying to get into her cabin at camp david and things like that. Her face in a bar, like, no. Im not somebody said please touch my face, dont touch anybodys face. The first rule of being a human with other humans, jesus. And then, in his written statement in defensive himself and whats revealed about him, he says that, cassidy and i dated. So, when you read that, i was really surprised when you read that, because i thought, wow, that is not the feeling you get in the book. Then, for the record, she said i never dated my gates, which is the most matter of response to that that she can have. But, consider these strange crosscurrents that she has to go through here that, oh, by the way, Alex Butterfield didnt have to go through. There werent any issues about who did you date while the white house was breaking into watergate. Exactly, and while a crisis of democracy was happening in the nixon white house, nobody came and put their hand on alexanders butterfield skirt. You know what i mean . The fact that the Rudy Giuliani anecdote got attention because the guardian publicized it, but then in reading the book realized that giuliani is one of several, and there is a lot of stuff like that that is just part of the course. Its not an abuse allegation of any kind, its on groping allegation, but just the fact that trump told her she should highlight her hair, and that she did, and then he came back and praised her for having did what she wanted with her hair. What he wanted her to do with her hair. I mean, shes a special assistant of the president just point. You know what i mean . This is not something youre bought should be sink, you know what i prefer in the office, here at the white house, i prefer you blonder. That is not cool. Its not okay. And, to follow the story, she did it with another woman at the white house at the same time to put some blond in there. She realized, now this is my hair i dont like this, and she went back. But, it was all about donald trump wanted every ones hair to look like hair. You are supposed to, in fact, he wanted her to get hope that managers phone number. They could handle that but he couldnt focus about meetings on covid long enough to follow the conversation for the whole meeting. But, he was able to think about who he could contact to get better highlights. I will say, theres more one moment of the book that i didnt im running this down, because im going to ask about it tomorrow night when shes here. Its my own preference, but i think its something thats very funny, theres a funny on adult about mark meadows which is not a tragedy or anything about loss of democracy or people being prayer horrific, its about him being a teetotaller. Lots of people we know are. And him accidentally, on a monday morning, getting totally hammered at the white house, because he did not know that white cloth was anything other than delicious seltzer. Accidentally being very drunk at the office while having had his first ever Alcoholic Beverage by accident and no fault of his own, is also a very funny. Saying up to that day, mark meadows and i were tied as never having been drunk in our lives. I still have not gotten accidentally drunk. Youre going to have to pull it off somehow sneaky one of those counts around my office. Ive been switching labels and you can figure it out. Not a true next door, i am afraid of that. I am very careful about every single beverage i pick up there. See now, i seem like the creep in the bar. Rachel, great interview, thank you for doing it, were going to get jen psaki reaction to it, because she lives the life we just talk about in a same white house. Excellent, thank you lawrence. Thank you, rachel. Joining us now is, jen psaki, who host a program on this network and has experience working into administrations in the white house. Jen, such an extraordinary interview with someone peter welch who, like me, as ive read the book, i know those rooms, i know the white house Chief Of Staff, i know the fireplace, i know where her desk would be, you know it better than i do. These people are very vivid to you. What did you get from rachel interview tonight . So much, but i do think what you just said is so important for people to understand in terms of her access, as the reading this book and hearing her do interviews. The Chief Of Staffs office in the white house is next to the Vice President of the United States office. Its down the hall from the oval office. The Chief Of Staff, theres no one in the white house who has more access and Greater Knowledge of what the president is up to or thinking of the Chief Of Staff. The Chief Of Staff to the Chief Of Staff which is a very funny name, but every white house seems to use, it is a person who has a great deal of our responsibility, sees, hears, everything. I havent read the book yet, because its coming out tomorrow, but i suspect she has a lot of, and they saw this in rachels interview, a lot of stories saw lot during her time. Watching reaches interview and like you i was stuck to the Television Just hearing what she had to say. I was struck by her poise. Shes a 27 year old woman. She was even younger when she was in the white house in a very Important Role. What stuck to me, and they wrote this down a little bit of a paraphrase because i left my exact notes downstairs, is he wants to do it again. She has a reason why she is speaking out, why she spoke to the january Six Committee, why she wrote this book in part, why shes doing these interviews. She wants people to hear and understand that this is not in the past, he can do this again, he wants to do this again. There is a lot, but thats something i immediately wrote down during the interview. I think we have it on video, lets take a look at that. Bringing it back to next years election, these people very well could be in power again. Do we want people who have already shown that they are willing and want to overthrow and over election, duly elected president , which is the pinnacle of our democracy. Do we want to people like that back in power . Do we want to put people back in power that have mishandled, and have been show to mishandle the most Sensitive National security secrets that our nation has. That is the question we need to ask ourselves. Jen, i was struck by another part of the interview where mark meadows has now put out a written statement trying to counter the book, but its kind of week. He saying, oh she doesnt provide context and some of it is completely wrong. Lets listen to what she said in response to mark meadows challenging her credibility. In terms of his statement, i would encourage him to go testify under oath if he thinks that. What is in the book and what i have testified to under oath which is consistent with what is in the book. He can go testify under oath if he has strong feelings about that. Jen, if you are mark meadows Criminal Defense Lawyer in georgia, youre very worried about this person who you just saw on rachael show. Yes you are. That person who you just saw and who just wrote a book and whos talking to tomorrow night has a lot to say about what mark meadows saw, which he advised, which he was a part of, she was there for everything. As mark meadows is facing his own indictments in georgia, still trying to move the menu as we know, she is a key voice here in putting together for prosecutors exactly what he knew and what role he played. When you look at her what you had to say tonight, you look at the testimony of the committee, she is so solid and there is no incense that the Criminal Defense Lawyers can find to attack her credibility. There is nothing in the way she ended up coming to the january Six Committee to give that testimony. That is an anyway suspect. Thats right, she came forward, she told her story, she did under oath. Shes not the right person to ask about this why she wasnt in jack smiths indictment. Shes not the right person to ask about that, but her story was so compelling. Its what many of us remember from the january 6th hearings, amongst other things. It was such a remarkable moment. Im curious as to why not, and maybe that requires a lawyer to answer the question. She is not clearly at liberty to see what her cooperation level, what she may very clear to rachel, is she will testify to in any way shes asked to testify if shes asked to testify. What was her in point to the grand jury in washington, d. C. . What was your input to the grand jury in georgia . It is not something she was prepared to reveal in that our. So, we are going to have to be more patient to find out exactly what role shes going to end up playing in those cases. But, mark meadows, as you read about him in the book, its certainly gives you a much fuller picture of the way hes doing his job. It was what i suspected, which, was whatever the boss wants, i just want to be the person who oks that. Cassidy hutchison was the person who i was wondering, i was wondering whether this person exists in the Trump White House. Its the person who we have all seen in Government Offices who has to go in to the boss and say, you absolutely cannot do that. Here is why you cannot do that. By the way, the people who go in, almost always prevail on the bus because the boss realizes oh youre right, i cant do that. There are not people who are gamblers and taking chances the way mark meadows and donald trump was. But, there is Cassidy Hutchinson. At age 24, in the west wing of the white house, shes the person who is saying, you cannot do that, and the president cant do that. She saying that the white house Chief Of Staff, and the white house Chief Of Staff is doing nothing. That is exactly right. Mark meadows, ive worked for six, seven, white house Chief Of Staff, they were all different. But, never was a single one of them a yes maam ive only worked for male white house Chief Of Staff, theres never been a female one. Never, because their role is exactly as you said, lawrence, its to go into the president , have the tough conversations, and really tell to them straight about what they can and cannot do. The role that they play, is the role they typically have a lot of years of political experience before theyre in that job, is to also be an adviser to the Chief Of Staff as theyre advising the president. So, its an Important Role and the white house is ive worked in, and the Mark Meadows Role i think is so important to keep reminding people, being a yes man is not playing the role of the white house Chief Of Staff is supposed to play. He seems to be just somebody who looked the other way. He said, he was basically afraid of getting yelled that. That is not the job you are supposed to play. Jen, by the way, in the west wing rioters room fictional series, one of the reasons i argued for and easily prevailed on the point that alison, who is playing your job or i was playing her job, either way. Shouldnt be promoted to white house Chief Of Staff. One of the reasons was, there is never been a white house Chief Of Staff. Weve only had the fictional one in nbcs fictional white house. But, its such an interesting point to me that she was able to be discussed strong in the face of all these men. When you read this book and when you encounter her, there does not seem to be, theres just nothing gender specific about she did she her job. She was just a strongly holding her ground every day in that job according to this book, as the men who were not strongly holding their craft. Right, a lot of people, including in the Republican Party serving as republican officials, could learn something from a 27 year old Cassidy Hutchinson and that shouldnt make a few people feel bad who were afraid to speak out. Ill also say, lawrence, and you and we talked about this, and i worked of course in politics for 20 years before i came over and joined all of you is, the experience shes had, which were so challenging or horrible or inappropriate, that is not what governments is what it should be what it typically is. There are about doctors, unfortunately a number them seem to summer clearly in congress, matt gaetz, but that is not what government is, thats not what Public Service is, and i hope people who read this book because its such an important part of history and are thinking about coming into government know that to. Very important point. Giuliani would never be welcomed into any other white house. The pillow guy would never be welcomed into any other white house. Republican white house is either. Matt gaetz would never be welcomed into a white house. Including republican white houses. So, thats a very important thing. All these things were able to happen, and all these negative personal experiences she had to many people happened because it was the Trump White House which was running wild in that way. I want to squeeze in a break here, but i want to talk about some important Breaking News that you had tonight at eight pm in your interview with Speaker Pelosi. Id like to do that. You asked Speaker Pelosi whether new jerseys indicted senator Robert Menendez should resign. Were going to see her answer, if you could stay with us. Right after this break, well discuss after the break. Thank you, jen. We will be right back. Im kareem abdul jabbar. I was diagnosed with afib. The first inkling that something was wrong was i started to notice that i couldnt do things without losing my breath. I couldnt make it through the airport, and every like 20 or 30 yards i had to sit