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house. perhaps as we're turning the corner here now, about a year and change away from election day, to confront this age issue which another poll shows is real. >> it's kind of like when i said, would you like a five spot? that's the way we talk, twenty and change. >> willie in your old category? >> i'm getting there, mika. >> we're old enough to remember when duke used to beat clemson in football. >> wow. >> that's how old we are. >> what a game. >> can you believe that? >> okay. >> first of all, duke beats clemson, right? fsu, the night before, routs lsu. never saw that coming. alabama, alabama rolls over middle tennessee state. i'm telling you, i thought middle tennessee state would win by two or three touchdowns. >> doing good things in murphysboro but not enough in tuscaloosa. college football turned upside down this year, mika. >> we'll get to all that, as well. meanwhile, half of congress returns to capitol hill today with a long to-do list, including a new federal budget, but demands from far-right members of the house could complicate getting a deal done by the end of the month. >> what a shock. >> we'll follow that. plus, vladimir putin is turning to another dictator for more weaponry for his war in ukraine. >> can you imagine? >> no. >> willie, russia's fake seeking so low, he's got to go to north korea, like, to save his military. unbelievable. >> this is a real tell of where things are, if you have to go to north korea, of all places. kim jong-un making a trip, reportedly, which he doesn't do often, to visit vladimir putin. i don't know, give him a pep talk among weapons. he counts among his allies, apparently, kim jong-un and north korea. that's where russia is right now. >> terrific. >> we're going to make a nice segue here. not a nice one, a sad segue, just not a smooth one. three musicians passed away. gary, dream weaver, leader of smash mouth, and our friend jimmy buffett. came as a real surprise to us, and i'm sure to you, too, willie. you know, we've known jimmy for a long time, regularly talked to him, texting. just a real shock. we knew -- we saw him last october, was it? >> yeah. >> we saw him at our place last october, and he seemed to be doing pretty well. you could tell he was fighting something, but he was very quiet guy about that sort of stuff. one of the loveliest, loveliest people you'll ever want to meet. just a great, great guy. >> yeah, that was -- woke up to that news alert saturday morning. you're right, it was a shock. seems like the kind of guy who was going to be here forever, and you hoped he would be. we learned yesterday from his camp he had an aggressive form of skin cancer that he had been fighting for four years and died on friday at his home in sag harbor out on long island here in new york. yeah, joe, just a -- first and foremost, a wonderful, warm, man, as we heard from so many tributes. joe, you're our music expert, but i'd argue an underrated musician, if you can say that if in terms of his popularity. paul ccartney putting out the praise. elton john. years ago bob dylan saying, jimmy buffett, one of the greatest songwriters he ever heard of and listened to. he was a great, great man, and we miss him a lot, and also a great songwriter and musician. >> always underestimated, i think, by the critics of his day. >> i think he underestimated himself. he said, "i'm not that" -- >> well, here's the deal. he's from the gulf of coast. we are from the same neck of the woods. we grew up together in that area, so that may have been a little false modesty. jimmy knew. jimmy knew he was good, but he was humble. by the way, it's a businessman. just extraordinary. >> yes. >> ended up a billionaire. he played this, like, laid back, you know, beach bum, but he was always working. just worked around the clock because he loved doing it. but, you know, it's so funny. last time we were talking to him, we were talking about his music and how he'd always been underestimated. i said, "well, yeah, it's pretty incredible. bob dylan" -- and he finished my sentence. he said, "yeah, said he was my favorite songwriter, "and he kind of smiled, like, not bad, huh? if you have dylan saying you're his favorite songwriter, you don't care what the rock critics say. >> no. you said it, you can't go anywhere, to any destination, without seeing a margaritaville restaurant or the business imprint that made him a billionaire. but it is the music and the soundtrack, particularly on a long labor day weekend, you could hear it everywhere you went, it was a sound track for so many people. >> mika, you know, he's an alabama boy. it was so nice seeing bryant denny stadium, all 90,000 of them, erupting in "margaritaville" on saturday night. >> beautiful. >> beautiful tribute. jimmy would have loved that. >> so sad. >> he would have loved all the kind, wonderful things, as willie said, that came in from all over the place. would have been pleased with paul mccartney and all the beautiful things paul said about jimmy. it meant a lot to him. he meant the world to millions of fans. i will just say, ending here, i asked him during covid, when he was getting ready to go back out on the road, i said, "well, you know, it's kind of tumultuous out there politically. are you seeing it in the shows?" he goes, "no, it's kind of beautiful. you know, the crowd is about 50/50. it's mixed. i can tell, you know, when i talk to people. they're about 50/50." this was, you know, going into the presidential election. he goes, "it's about 50/50. what's so beautiful, when they come to my show, that stays outside, and it's about the music. it's about everybody getting together and having a good time. isn't that beautiful?" >> just about says it all. >> need a hell of a lot more people like that. >> absolutely. we'll have more on his life coming up on "morning joe." along with joe, willie and me, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. bbc news's katty kay is with us. associate editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson. and george conway of "the washington post" is with us this morning. the house is set to return next year, the senate is in session, and lawmakers have a long list of items waiting for them. at the top of the list, the federal budget, which is set to expire on september 30th, and will need to be renewed to avoid a full-fledged government shutdown. also hanging in the balance is the fallout from senator tommy tuberville's hold on military nominations. >> i mean, this is getting so serious. >> three branches. >> you now have the leaders of the branches of our armed services saying, "you are really, really damaging readiness for ow tro our troops the world." >> i don't know what he is doing. this is military nominations, a hold because of him. america's military branches do not have a confirmed senate chief in place. many generals and admirals being forced to perform two roles simultaneously. that fact has prompted the secretaries of the navy, the air force, and the army to co-write an op-ed for "the washington post" entitled, "three service secretaries to tuberville: stop this dangerous hold on senior officers." they write in part, "we are proud to work alongside exceptional military leaders who are skilled, motivated and empowered to protect our national security. these officers and the millions of service members they lead are the foundation of america's enduring military advantage. yet, this foundation is being actively eroded by the actions of a single u.s. senator, tommy tuberville, who is blocking the confirmation of our most senior military officers. thus far, the hold has prevented the defense department from placing almost 300 of our most experienced and battle-tested leaders into critical posts around the world. three of our five military branches, the army, navy and marine corps, have no senate-confirmed senate chief in place." >> this is sickening. >> "instead, these jobs and dozens of others across the force are being performed by acting officials without the full range of legal authorities necessary to make the decisions that will sustain the united states' military edge." >> they can't make the decisions that they need to make. that's impacting readiness. i know tommy tuberville doesn't care, obviously. >> but he knows this. he knows this. >> on a personal level, planning for service families, for children of service members, they should be in their new locations, in their new schools. everything has been held up. their lives have been put on hold because the promotions aren't going through. then, of course, planning for our military, long-term planning for our military can't be done because, as these service chiefs said, they don't have a full range of power to make a lot of those decisions. so readiness is at risk. willie, you know, the republicans are forfeiting what they always claim to have, which is some special thing with the military, despite the fact they spent years trashing the united states military, saying they wish they were more like russians, saying that they're weak, saying they're woke. it's all a lie. our military is stronger than it's ever been. compared to the rest of the world, the strongest it's been since 1945. yet, you have one republican senator, which other senators are allowing him to do, one republican senator damaging the readiness of the united states armed forces in a way that just makes vladimir putin and makes the communist chinese, makes the north koreans, makes everybody so happy, that one senator is able to damage the united states military's readiness as much as tommy tuberville is able to do that. again, you've got to start asking, why is he doing this? the republicans supposedly don't want him to do this. the people of alabama don't want him to do this. why does he continue acting in a way that damages the readiness of the united states military? it just makes no sense. >> and he says he is doing it because he doesn't want the military to allow its service members to travel between states for abortions, for reproductive care. so this is the political hill he's willing to die on. you have, you're right, people like mitch mcconnell saying, "i disagree with what senator tuberville is doing." but in the senate, under our rules, he can do it. do you not have any power? does the republican leadership have no power over tuberville to say, "knock this off, you've made your point"? john, the pentagon said last week, 301 generals and admirals are sitting in limbo, including 83 three-star and four-star nominations generals pending right now. again, a lot of republicans in the senate have said they disagree with what tuberville is doing, but he continues. he will continue. this has become his issue. his argument last week, he said, people have known for a long time the u.s. military is top heavy. saying, we have too many generals, so this isn't a big deal, in his view. >> this is the first time in history so many of these seats have sat open. of course, this isn't just impacting generals. it's impacting regular troops and their families who can't know what the future holds because they're on hold. they're in limbo because of this. and there are multiple things going on here. we mentioned mcconnell. this is one of the things that's raised eyebrows among those in washington, wondering if mcconnell's grip on power is diminished because of his ongoing health challenges. he pushes back on that, but it is persistent in d.c. democrats have been sharply critical of this throughout. senate majority leader schumer denounced this at every turn. the unhappiness behind the scenes from republicans is growing, but there hasn't been a push to get tuberville to stop. there hasn't. they're willing to let him, even if they're privately unhappy, letting him command the stage like this. it comes at a moment where, of course, we have a land war in europe, where the united states is trying to increase its readiness posture because of that. because of potential challenges from china down the road, from rogue actors like north korea and iran. those in the white house are furious about this, and it is evident nearly every day from president biden who is loathe to criticize his former senate colleagues. he has respect for the institution. he no longer loathes to criticize tuberville for what he is doing. >> george conway, back when we were republicans, we used to take great pride at how much we fought for the strengthening of the united states military, the readiness of the united states military. i was on the armed services four terms for a reason. because that's what my constituents wanted. that's what republican constituents used to want. now, we have republicans who are saying the united states military, which is the strongest in the world -- it just is. i mean, there's not a close second -- we now have tommy tuberville, republicans saying, "oh, the military is top heavy." who said that? nobody. nobody who knows anything about how strong our military is. then you have republicans saying we need to be more like the russians. we need to be more manly like the russians, like the russian military. you've got republicans that say our military is weak, that it's woke. republicans saying that our leaders are stupid and fat pigs. i mean, the insults just keep flying towards extraordinarily strong, vital united states military. if anybody thinks they're weak and woke, just ask the 500 russian troops that tried to bum rush the united states military in syria a few years back. you can't really ask 'em because they were all gunned down, all blown apart in about three minutes. so why is it that just republicans have this blindspot when it comes to how strong, how successful and how good our united states military is? why do these republicans hate the united states military so much? >> they hate the united states military because it's a part of the united states government. this is basically the republicans have become anti-american, anti-government, anti the united states. that's their shtick now. that's why they're attacking the state department, fbi, prosecutors, and they attack the institutions that normally republicans were very, very supportive of. now, it's just this nihilistic attack on american institutions. it's also -- it spri brings to the fact we live in a different era now. the senate rules that would allow one senator to block a unanimous consent agreement to have these batch nominations sent to the floor, i mean, all these arkane senate rules we talk about, that we don't really talk about, but it depends on the good faith of the members, of collegiality of the members. that's one thing the republican party has completely abandoned, which is not just the truth but good faith and collegiality. >> yeah. well, we'll talk more about this. we do have more polling from "the wall street journal" that has president joe biden and donald trump in a dead heat in a 2024 general election matchup. in the survey, 46% say they would vote for biden, while 46% say they would vote for trump. 8% say they are undecided. so in this conversation, mixing this in really shows you where the country is at, joe. >> well -- >> it's trumpified. >> gene, look at the numbers. you have 46% of americans supporting a guy who has been indicted four times, indicted for stealing nuclear secrets, indicted for stealing war plans. called a rapist by a new york judge, saying what he did was akin to rape. you have a guy that's being charged for his legal payoffs to porn stars. i mean, he could go down the list. a guy who started a riot on january 6th, an insurrection, had fake electors, had this fraudulent scheme to steal votes from millions and millions of americans in seven swing states. i could go on. called the republican secretary of state of georgia and said, "steal enough votes for me. find enough votes so i can steal georgia." 46% of americans are voting for the guy who said he would terminate the constitution to get back into power. >> yeah, those numbers are unbelievable, yet there they are. "the wall street journal" does good polling, and, you know, any one poll can be an outlier. but there have been a lot of polls that indicate that if it's a trump/biden rematch, this is going to be a close election. again, that stupefies me. it should not be a close election. there is no way that any substantial portion of the electorate should support donald trump, after what we saw during the four years of a donald trump presidency. after what we have seen in the years since donald trump's presidency. after all the felony criminal charges filed against him in four cases with what is basically open and shut evidence. you know, the man is an accused felon, what, 91 times, something like that, the total number of counts against him? yet, potentially 46% of americans are willing to return him to the white house. it certainly lays out -- what this poll, i think, does, it lays out to democrats that this is going to be a close election. they can't take anything for granted. they should assume it is going to be decided by perhaps tens of thousands of voters in the swing states that we all know about. they'd better get cracking now because there's a real risk, and i can't believe i'm saying this, there is a risk that donald trump could return to the white house. >> well, there is such a disconnect, katty kay, between the polling numbers and the reality. democrats are trying to figure out exactly why that is. you look inside the poll, a large number of democrats just say joe biden is too old. he is too old. the numbers don't add up, though. for instance, you look at the economic numbers, for instance. you go down the list. going into labor day weekend, "wall street journal" headline, "resilient u.s. economy defies expectations." that's in rupert murdochmurdochl street journal." you look at other "wall street journal" articles. they talk about strong job numbers, that wages are outpacing inflation, that americans are getting, quote, another raise because of this economy. another "wall street journal" -- again, again, i'm sorry, republicans, rupert murdoch's "wall street journal," there's another article recently that talks about how, despite what every economist has been saying over the past couple years, the united states' economy looks like it is going to be able to stick the landing. it is going to have a smooth recovery without a recession. again, all good news. but there is this massive disconnect. you look at people giving high disapproval numbers on the economy. 37% approve. 59% disapprove. katty, in other polls, 74% of americans say that their economic situation is good. you look at inflation. the numbers are upside down. inflation is cooling. it's just absolutely incredible. improving infrastructure, he passes a bipartisan infrastructure bill, like a massive, record-breaking infrastructure bill. he's upside down there. he's been tougher on china than any president. you look again, we talk about it all the i'm, what we've been doing with our security partners in the philippines, in japan, in south korea, in australia, on and on. we could go down the entire list, and the numbers don't add up, katty. a lot of democrats are saying, it's because he's too old. that's what's underlying this entire poll, is joe biden's numbers are low because, right now, americans think he is too old to do the job. >> yeah, i wrote a piece about this in the bbc saying this is the "alice in wonderland election." what is down is up and what is up is down. it doesn't make sense. donald trump has a slew of indictments, yet he is soaring in the republican polls. joe biden, with an economy with 3.8% unemployment, ticked up a little bit but it is still low, inflation coming down to 3%, incredibly low by the standards of certainly most western countries, where it is 6%, 7%, 8%. america is doing better economically. why is it people aren't feeling this? partly, yes, interest rates are higher, which is hurting people, some people, and prices are still higher than they were before covid. i guess people are still feeling some of that. but i think you're right, there is the age factor that's playing into this. i know how frustrated the white house is on both of those counts. they hope that by sending joe biden out around the country, once more of the money that is actually being pledged in things like the chips act and the ira actually get out into projects around the country, then maybe they'll start to see some kind of return in terms of the polls. the age factor, joe biden can try to joke about it, but it's still a looming factor. mitch mcconnell has incidents like he had over the weekend, like he had a couple weeks ago, that doesn't help the president either because it raises, again, the idea that there is a group of leadership at the top where there is an age question about everybody. >> yeah. >> he's just going to have to keep stating the numbers like you have in terms of the economy and hoping that the american public starts giving him some recognition for an economy doing better than almost any western economy in the world. >> you look at the front page of "the new york times" today. china's economy really teetering on the brink of a massive recession right now. we're doing -- china, russia, please. even our european allies. our economy is doing better than just about any economy in the world, yet, again, there's this massive disconnect. you go into these poll numbers and the massive disconnect comes from this -- we have to go to lemire. he's obviously been closest to this. we were going to go to break because on the other side of this, frank wrote a book about this. john, we have to bring you in here, man. the white house doesn't want to talk about age, i understand, but it colors everything. it colors everything. if you look at what he's done on foreign policy, you look at how the economy is going right now, these are numbers that should be giving any president a huge lift, and it's just not happening here. >> no, and the white house, they are aware of this. the dnc is aware of this. the re-election campaign is aware of this. they point out, with some frustration, that donald trump is only three years younger than joe biden. >> exactly. >> that "wall street journal" poll suggests, though, that almost twice -- there you see it, 73% of those respondents say biden is too old. 47% say trump is. this is a lingering sort of bait in perception now, and that's something they're trying to overcome. now, we should note, this poll, relatively small sample, also done by -- one of the pollsters involved was a trump-affiliated manafort group, tony fabrizio, but let's put that aside as we look at this. it is just one poll. the metrics are consistent with what we've heard with others, age is a concern. the white house points to these issues where they feel like the economy is improving. though poll after poll suggests americans don't feel great about it, there's underlying numbers. americans say, i have more money in my pocket than i used to. i can go on vacation now, and i couldn't do it a year ago. they think it'll come to the surface sometime next year, twinned with the impact of the inflation reduction act. next year, americans will feel better about the economy. next year, when donald trump is in a courtroom on trial, they feel that'll also bring trump's numbers down. we're seeing this artificial high from his base, and it'll be different when it comes to independent and swing voters. but here's the end line, at this poin in 2015, at this point in 2019, donald trump was well behind hillary clinton and joe biden representatively. this time, they're dead even. >> right. well, joe biden is a sitting president. i will say two quick things, then we have to break. one is, joe biden is always underestimated. he's always going to lose. >> yeah. >> he's always the guy, you know, after iowa and new hampshire, he was dead in the water. democrats said it then. they said it before the election. they said it after he got elected time and again, "he's too old. he's outdated. he can't get anything done." then he passes more bipartisan legislation than anybody in 20, 25 years. they say the same thing, you know, before the 2022 election, "he's too old. his party is going to get crushed. there's going to be a red wave." there's not a red wave. then you have the abortion issue which will be a huge issue in '24 again. it's been nonstop since the right was taken away from women. so, again, there are, again -- >> that, and are you better off than you were four years ago? do you want to go back to that? >> true. >> we'll have more from this poll coming up. also ahead, president biden mocks president trump's time in office during a speech in battleground pennsylvania. what it says about his campaign's strategy heading into 2024. plus, a convicted member of the proud boys predicts he will be pardoned by former president trump. we'll have the very latest on those ongoing prosecutions and sentences. >> i mean, trump has said -- >> some of them very long. >> -- if he is elected, he is going to pardon the insurrectionists. >> the people he told to run to the capitol. >> told them to go. they beat the hell out of cops. four cops are dead now after the riot. the country is scarred. yeah, donald trump says these are the people he wants out. also ahead, what we're learning this morning about a possible meeting between north korea's kim jong-un and russian president vladimir putin amid the ongoing war in ukraine. nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons joins us with more on that. and a rock 'n' roll mystery. there's a new global effort to find a missing bass guitar that once belonged to beatles legend paul mccartney. >> that's been a mystery for a long time. boy, it is taking center stage now. >> you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. rsv is in for a surprise. meet arexvy. 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i'm great. you are great. i wonder if bailey's ever done a book report. be nice to your sister. what flea bit him? pets aren't just pets. they're more. this flea and tick season, trust america's #1 pet pharmacy. chewy. over a third of his supporters said they'd happily go to another candidate, they need more time to look at them. that's where trump's weakness is. i know a lot in the media is saying, this is over, this is over. it's really not. remember barack obama who they said had no chance against hillary clinton and the clinton machine in a '08? six months, things got very different. you have to let the process play out. >> republican governor of new hampshire, chris sununu on "meet the press" over the week end. in the "wall street journal" poll, 59% of voters say trump is their choice for 2024, up from 48% in april. all the way down there in second place, down 11 points from april, is florida governor ron desantis at 13%. he is down now 46 points in this national poll behind donald trump. all other candidates down in single digits. the poll also shows most republicans think the criminal cases against trump are illegitimate, especially the two relating to election interference. 70% of republican primary voters believe they're illegitimate, while 20% say they're legitimate. 48% of republicans say charges against trump make them more likely to vote for him. only 16% say the charges make them less likely to support him. 36% say the charges have no impact on their support for the former president. george conway, we had the depate debate a coupleago, where donald trump wasn't there. nikki haley had a good night. vivek ramaswamy was in the middle of it all. yet, they're all still in single digits. this is donald trump's to lose. it is a national poll. we know this is not how a national election is decided. but, my gosh, if you're up 46 points after labor day, you have to feel good about his chances. >> no question he is going to win the nomination whether or not he is convicted or incarcerated. i think he is going to win the nomination. i think he is going to clinch it even before the january 6th case here in the district of columbia goes to trial. so we could end up with a guy running for president with a criminal conviction, a guy running for president from jail, possibly, if he acts up and gets remanded. it's just -- what's going on here is 2016 all over again. you have one man with name recognition, who everyone knows, and then you have 17 other people running against him. i don't know how many. it's just difficult. the only way you can beat him, possibly, is you have to run head-to-head against him, one-on-one, and that's not going to happen. you have to go after him hammer and tong to remind people of the things they don't like. i have to do that with republicans and say, he didn't build the wall, this and that and all sorts of things that wouldn't appeal to the general electorate. but they have to go hammer and tong at him, they just won't do it. >> yeah, you know, the thing is, everybody wants these republicans to consolidate behind one person to run against him. they're not going to do it. but, you know, the billionaire class can do it. the money people can do it. they can get on the phone and say, "listen, you know, desantis just doesn't have it. he's not it. or he does. look at nikki haley, she had a good night. tim scott didn't have a good night. we need to get our money behind one candidate." seems to me, you know, it's just not logical. there's just no politician who is going to step out of the way, but the money class in the republican party, their benefactors can. if they want to save their party, they probably need to start thinking about that. gene, what can i say about my former party? very little that's good right now. four indictments. indictments for -- they're more likely to vote for him because he got caught stealing nuclear secrets. they're more likely to vote for him because he good caught stealing war plans to invade iran. they're more likely to vote for him because he got caught stealing an assessment about america's weaknesses. he took them out of secure locations. he showed them to people. he's on tape saying, "i shouldn't be showing this to you because it's classified. i can't declassify it because i'm not president anymore. if i were president, i could classify it." they've got him dead to right on all of this stuff. you know, yet, the republicans say they're more likely to vote for him because he stole nuclear secrets, because he stole war plans, because he got caught with illegal hush money payment to a porn star, which, weirdly enough, that's the issue these republicans say is the most legitimate, but it's also the one that most legal scholars say is the least legitimate. what can you say about a party that is more likely to vote somebody because they've been indicted four times for stealing america's most important military secrets? >> well, look, i think we, the voters, have to destroy the republican party in order to save it. that's the only thing. that's what has to happen. the republican party right now, your former party, is actually nothing like your former party. it's nothing like the party you came up in. it's certainly not the party of ronald reagan, who would be totally unwelcome in today's republican party. seen as a squish or rhino or whatever. this is a chaotic, in many ways, authoritarian, kind of conglomeration that isn't really an organized political party, doesn't have a philosophy or governing program, except tear it down. that's not sustainable. the way political parties reform is that they get crushed at the polls. then they change. until that happens, they generally don't change. so until that happens enough times, and it could have to happen repeatedly, i don't know how the republican party gets out of this sort of circling the drain kind of stasis that it's in. it is just appalling, it really is. we haven't seen anything like it in my lifetime. lord knows, i hope we never do again. >> for now, it appears voters, according to this poll and several others, want more of what they saw in donald trump. let's bring in staff writer at "the atlantic," frank fore, the author of the new book titled, "the last politician, inside joe biden's white house and the struggle for america's future." frank, congrats on the book. a lot of people having opinions about it. we were talking about this issue of age in the "wall street journal" poll. >> yes. >> something the white house can't run from. it is not just republicans, it is democrats, 7 in 10, who say they're worried about joe biden's age at 80 years old, despite the fact he is only three years older than donald trump. how is the white house managing this? how seriously are they taking it? has that changed in the last few months or so? >> of course it's changed as we get closer to the selection. they could have leaned into this issue much earlier. because the story i tell in my book is of a president who is extremely experienced, who is dealing with these difficult foreign policy changes, we're fighting a proxy war against a nuclear power, our relationship with china is intense, and he has to thread the needle on these things. and the fact that he's served on the senate foreign relations committee for all those years, that he was vice president, that experience has been the thing that's allowed him to do something that is extremely difficult and consequential. but they've run away from the age issue and kind of ignored the fact that, you know, anybody can eyes can see that joe biden is extremely old. >> one issue they have leaned into, of course, is his leadership on the world stage. your book has revelations about how he's managed the war in ukraine. >> yes. >> trying to keep that alliance together. also, his relationship with ukraine and president zelenskyy. tell us about it. >> so it's a complicated relationship. it got off on the wrong foot. the first meeting they had in the white house, there was this sense that zelenskyy, who was just getting into politics, he was a comedian, wasn't up to the job. biden, who is this wise politician, didn't really respect zelenskyy at the first meeting, and it was tense. over time, it's remained a difficult relationship. on the eve of the war, the united states had russia's war plans in technicolor, and they tried to persuade zelenskyy to take all sorts of defensive action. those meetings were very difficult. because whatever zelenskyy was doing in private to protect ukraine, he wasn't communicating to the united states or to the president in public. that relationship was tough. over time, it's become more mature. now, the united states' military and the ukrainian military are integrated in a profound way. one of the things i think biden's political skills have allowed him to do is overcome the fact that this world of ours, only a couple years ago, was basically indifferent to global authoritarianism. he's helped rally the alliance. he's helped get the aid moving through congress in epic proportions. that in and of itself was not inevitable. >> let me ask you, frank, why has joe biden always been so underestimated? you write about it until the it shall -- in the book. we've seen the polls. he does better when people actually get out and vote, but, you know, mika's family has known him for 40, 50 years. i've known him for 30. he's always been knocked. i mean, you go back to when he was on the senate judiciary committee. >> yeah. >> people would mock him, say he was stupid. in '87, that disastrous campaign, he went off and got angry and said some really angry things because he thought people were making fun of the fact that he didn't go to an ivy league college. i remember sitting next to him after the new hampshire results came in, and, man, he was dead man walking politically. we didn't -- barnicle and i have known him for a long time, talked to him, and he's the easiest guy to talk to. we had nothing to say to him. >> it was a weird morning. >> it was a weird, like, five minutes. >> but he was good. >> you know, he just kept his head down. he kept going. you look at 2022. there's going to be a red wave. i remember when he first came in, progressives were saying, "biden is so stupid. he is so old. he actually thinks he can strike deals with republicans." he struck a deal with the republicans in a way no president this century has. >> again, i can answer this question -- i can answer this question with a confession, which is, i was one of those people in washington who would roll my eyes at joe biden because of the way he talked. because the stories go on forever and ever. i remember when i was 24 years old and got my first call from joe biden. even as i was excited to talk to a senator in a reporting call, five minutes in, i was like, get this guy off the phone. he is never going to end. [ laughter ] >> but the thing is, there is an element. you put your finger on it, joe, there is an element of social class into the way that biden is received. in the obama white house, where you had these guys who went to ivy league schools, they'd roll their eyes at biden for the way he talked, though there was a mastery of certain skills. the media has always poo-pooed or looked down on him, leading to an underestimation of biden. it's always fueled him. every time he seems he is counted out, there is this persistence. obviously, it connects to his personal story, which is a tale about resilience. >> frank, can you talk about -- because you touched on something really important here. it's not just republicans. it's not just the press. it's democrats. i mean, joe biden felt the burn. we heard it for eight years, time and time again, inside the obama administration. not just the principals treating him badly but staff being rude to him, being dismissive to him. after, you know, he came out and said he supported marriage equality and forced barack obama to change his position publicly, you know, the staff treated him -- you know, i'm talking people close to biden, said the staff treated him like dirt. they treated him like he didn't exist. >> yeah. >> that still -- there's still some of that in the clinton camp, in the obama camp. i'm not saying from the clintons and the obamas, but, certainly, people all around act like they're too good for joe biden, even after he is president of the united states. >> totally true. joe biden is one of the people who knows that fact most, and it enters into his psyche. i would also say that it is true in the democratic party at large, where there isn't this sense of affection for joe biden. he hasn't -- he connected with the base at a crucial moment, obviously, in the primary campaign in 2020, but he hasn't really been able to rekindle that. i think it's, in part, the way that he -- i mean, age is clearly a part of it at this stage, but it is also the inclination to talk about bipartisanship, the way in which -- even though he's run the most progressive administration in american history, he avoids the culture war topics that are so incendiary to the middle but might rile the left. he is navigating things in a general election sort of way. as a result, he's never really had that love of the base. >> frank, president obama, former president obama and president biden had a meeting recently to talk about politics, the coming election, and where things are. >> yeah. >> how did -- how do you expect obama world, or what is left of obama world, to participate in this election that's coming up? there seemed to be some indication that the former president is going to jump in with both feet in support of joe biden. >> yes. >> i remember those times when the west wing was so dismissive of biden. >> yes. >> when obama was in office. is that going to change in a big way as we go into 2024? >> i don't think so. i was actually in the white house that day when obama had lunch with joe biden, and i could see just how relieved barack obama was not to be president of the united states anymore. but i also had this sense that he was taking some joy in this. as i write in the book, the relationship is complicated. it evolved over time. i think it was grudging and maybe dismissive, then it was something closer to a genuine brotherhood that they experienced. i got the sense that, for whatever the distinctions are between their presidencies, i mean, joe biden has run a presidency that, as a matter of policy, has repudiated some of the idealogical precepts of obamaism and taken the democratic party and its economics to a different place. a lot of his foreign policy builds on some of the mistakes -- corrects for some of the mistakes obama made as president. but i think all that said, the friendship is real. i think that obama recognizes the stakes of this election and will be all in. >> frank, you spend time in the book writing about the withdrawal from afghanistan. we passed the two-year anniversary of that. 13 marines killed at the airport in kabul. president biden said at the time, has continued to say publicly, i was not going to engage in this forever war. it was time to leave after 20 years. is that his public spin on this? has he privately changed the view of this? because we're even hearing to this day, we have marines testifying before congress in tears, talking about how terrible it was, how hasty, how disorganized it was. are there regrets inside the biden white house about the way they got out of afghanistan? >> i think the president himself doesn't regret it. he obviously didn't warn the country that there would be chaos once we pulled the plug in afghanistan. nobody predicted in the intelligence community, within the white house, that chaos would descend on kabul as quickly as it did. but one of the things that i think -- one of the president's primal qualities on foreign policy especially is this stubborn determination. he considers himself a contrarian on foreign policy. so when the foreign policy elite, what some people call the blob, descends on joe biden to criticize him, his instinct is to double down and to -- and one of the other things about the man that should be said was there was all this pressure on him to fire somebody, to offer up some sort of sacrificial offering to the pundit class, and he refused to place blame anywhere in the administration. he squarely owned the decision. in that instance, the public biden and private biden is negligible. >> this excellent book is out today, "the last politician, inside joe biden's white house and the struggle for america's future." staff writer at "the atlantic," frank foer, congratulations on the book. >> thank you. >> eugene robinson and george conway, thank you, as well. see you soon. up next, what kevin mccarthy is saying about opening an impeachment inquiry into president biden. new reporting from capitol hill on that, straight ahead on "morning joe." how can you sleep on such a firm setting? gab, mine is almost the same as yours. almost is just another word for not as good as mine. save 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus, free home delivery when you add an adjustable base. shop now only at sleep number. since the citi custom cash® card automatically adjusts to earn me more cash back in my top eligible category... suddenly, life's feeling a little more automatic... oooooohhh... automatic sashimi! earn cash back that automatically adjusts to how you spend with the citi custom cash® card. with the freestyle libre 2 system, know your glucose level and where it's headed. no fingersticks needed. manage your diabetes with more confidence. freestyle libre 2. try it for free at freestylelibre.us we're getting through one of the best job creation periods in history. that's a fact. not long ago, we were losing jobs in the country. the guy who held this job before me was just one of two presidents in history -- here's an important point -- one of two presidents in history that left office with fewer jobs in america than when he got elected office. when the last guy was here, you were shipping jobs to china. now, we're bringing jobs home from china. we also passed the bipartisan infrastructure law. you can't have the strongest economy in the world with a second rate infrastructure. guess what? the great real estate builder, the last guy here, he didn't build a damn thing. under my predecessor, infrastructure week became a punch line. on my watch, infrastructure is being a decade and it's a headline. >> president biden spending labor day in philadelphia, touting his bipartisan infrastructure deal and the jobs his administration has created. welcome back to "morning joe." it is tuesday, september 5th. jonathan lemire, katty kay are still with us. joining the conversation, we have founder of the conservative website the bulwark, charlie sykes. and dean of the colombia journalism school and staff writer at the "new yorker," jalani cobb is with us. >> i want to talk about a poll we had last hour that is, again, just so disheartening about our former party. a party that said in the "wall street journal" poll, they were more likely to vote for donald trump because he got caught stealing military secrets, he got caught stealing nuclear secrets, he got caught stealing secrets to invade iran, he got caught stealing assessments military weaknesses. he got caught trying to lead a conspiracy to have a fraudulent lectors to steal millions of voters from people and from americans in seven states. he got caught trying to steal votes. the republican saying, "just get me one more vote than i lost by. give me 11,000 votes or so, just find them out there," and on and on and on. i just can't even believe -- well, actually, i have to believe now there are people out there, a lot of republicans out there that actually are more likely to vote for him because he stole nuclear secrets. what does that say about the republican party? our former party. >> well, it doesn't say anything we haven't seen for a while. i mean, this is a -- this poll strikes me as a giant middle finger from the republican base, basically saying, we're in with this guy. we don't care what he did. we don't care about the coup, about the criminality, the fraud, the rape. he is our guy, and we're going to ride with him not only despite what he has done, but what he will do in the future. so, yes, the poll is alarming. it is also a warning, the direction the party is going. anyone who thinks that this party is going to develop a conscience and stand up against donald trump, or that it would provide any guardrails for a trump 2.0 presidency is incredibly naive. it confirms something that has been coming for some time, but i don't think that we should understate how alarming it is. >> yeah. you know, willie, charlie said, they're sticking with donald trump. they're sticking with donald trump over america. i mean, you know, george conway said they were un-american last hour. because they support a guy that stole nuclear secrets. they support a party that's actually blocking the promotion of hundreds of military men and women, that's standing in the way of military readiness, that hates our intel community now, that hates the fbi now, that hates any law enforcement, that doesn't do what helps donald trump. if any law enforcement agency tries to hold donald trump accountable, they hate them. if any law enforcement law officers try to stop donald trump's mob from going in and wrecking the united states capitol, beating up cops with flags, bloodying their heads, almost killing them, and, in fact, four ended up dying after january 6th, and their families say because of january 6th and donald trump's riots, they don't give a damn about the cops. in fact, they mock them on tv. so you can go on and on and on. it seems not only have they decided to stick with donald trump over other candidates, they've decided to stick with donald trump over america. >> and it's that perverse view of victimhood and martyrdom in the case of donald trump, which is, we attack the capitol, we beat up police officers, we defamed the seat of our government, and we're the victims. donald trump, somehow, is the victim, and not the cops, not the country and not our democracy. increasingly, republicans are saying, yes, we're with this guy. i remember six months ago in the same "wall street journal" poll, ron desantis was within spitting distance of donald trump. they thought, okay, maybe we have an alternative. maybe we can take the off-ramp from donald trump. as this has gone on, it's become clear that it's not desantis and they want this. mika, they're telling us that donald trump is the guy we want. i mean, you can look the margins there. it was 24 points in april. it's now 46 points. this, again, a national poll. this is a state by state race, we understand all that, but the point is, republican voters are telling us in poll after poll, we think, actually, that these prosecutions of donald trump make him stronger. we think, yes, he is the victim, and, yes, we are ready to dive back in for another round of this. >> not only do they say they're the victim, despite the fact they're the mobs that beat the hell out of cops. you now have donald trump saying that he is going to release these people that brutalized the cops, trashed the capitol, and tried to commit an insurrection against the united states government. and they like it. they like the guy that stole nuclear secrets. they like the guy that tried to destroy evidence, that tried to get rid of the tapes. they like the guy who paid illegal hush money payments to porn stars, even though that's the one charge that seems to bother them the most. but they like that. what does they say about the republican party? nothing good. >> it has been completely distorted and destroyed. and look what happens to the people around trump. former trump lawyer, rudy giuliani, is waiving his formal arraignment and pleading not guilty in the fulton county election interference case. late friday, giuliani's legal team entered a court filing with a plea. giuliani faces 13 criminal counts, including racketeering and conspiracy. giuliani is one of 12 co-defendants to waive their arraignments and enter a not guilty plea. former president trump waived his arraignment last week. now, he's using the decision not to return to atlanta as a fundraising boost. in a new message to supporters, trump bragged about waiving his arraignment, and said he, quote, refuses to play into the left's hands. willie. we mentioned the proud boys. convicted proud boys lieutenant joseph biggs is hoping donald trump is elected in 2024 because he says he is certain the former president will pardon him. last week, biggs was sentenced to 17 years in prison for his role in the january 6th attack. prosecutors had sought 33 years. trump has not said whether he'll consider pardons for the proud boys specifically, but he has said before he will pardon a, quote, large portion of the rioters if he returns to the white house. later today, the proud boys leader, tarrio, will learn his fate. prosecutors seeking 33 years for him, as well. they describe him as someone who passed, quote, massive popular influence over the members of his group. adding, because of this and his motives, a significant sentence is necessary. jalani, i want to read from your piece, "donald trump and the pardon debate." you write, quote, it is not entirely surprising trump's indictments have inspired murmured appeals for president biden to offer a pardon. the slogan, too big to fail, during the great recession has a corollary, too big to convict. on pardoning trump, prosecuting rivals is almost always the hallmark of autocracy. but the refusal to prosecute someone, reflexively pardoning that person because he is a political rival, is at least equally corrupting to a democracy. in the short run, this will stoke deeper divisions and heighten an most an most animos. the country can move on to a more dangerous future. there are whispers that joe biden should do this. we heard from republicans on the debate stage saying, i would issue a preemptive pardon for donald trump. he is not going to jail if i am president of the united states. if you can expand a little more on the case you make, and i think that is an important one, it is just as dangerous to give him the pardon for the precedent that sets. >> absolutely is. you know, the rational is that we can't, you know, prosecute a former president. we can't convict a former president because it'd be too divisive. it would create a big obstacle in the country. we'd become even more polarized, et cetera. then people said the prosecutions are political. well, that rational for pardoning him would be political. that is an explicitly political argument. there is no contextual argument to saying a democracy is better when the former leaders get away with the litany of things he's alleged to have done and have no consequences for it. one of the examples i use for this is, you know, there were the blanket pardoned for confederates at the end of the civil war. that facilitated the rise of white militias that nullified, all but nullified emancipation for african-americans in the south. we talked about in the piece, you know, gerald ford pardoning richard nixon and using really the same logic as andrew johnson in the 1860s, saying, it's time for the country to move on. ford said, you know, the biggest thing he was concerned about was the fate of the nation, not the fate of richard nixon. but if we look at what happened, the kind of impunity we saw in the trump administration, somewhere in the back of people's minds was the idea that, no one really goes to prison for this sort of thing. >> right. >> we have -- at least at a certain level, we've come to the conclusion we don't like seeing really powerful people prosecuted. it sets an example that will only make this situation get worse. >> this your piece, you started to mention it, about president johnson and the confederacy. you dive into robert e. lee, particularly. >> yeah. >> tell us more about that debate, but also the impact of the decision that was made. >> sure. so, you know, robert e. lee, it was an interesting position. in the initial amnesty offered by president johnson, it excluded 14 categories of people, including the leaders of the confederacy. those people were still subject to potential prosecution and so on. three years go by, and president johnson issues another amnesty, this time including everyone. but he does not extend the citizenship for people. they have to actually apply for their citizenship and have it readmitted. that never happened in robert e. lee's life. it was gerald ford who reinstated robert e. lee's citizenship posthumously. what it meant was that, in a conflict in which 700,000 plus americans died, no one went to prison. it was the idea that you just move on. we can see what the implications of that are, you know, that precedent. >> katty? >> jelani, jack goldsmith, a lawyer who wrote in the bush administration, wrote a piece a few weeks ago saying that, however this turns out, it just isn't great for the american public's belief in the impartiality of the department of justice and the government. he's not somebody who is favorable to donald trump. if pardon is not the right way, do you see any way this could be managed, whether donald trump is convicted, whether he is not convicted, that this could result in a justice department that the american public still has strong faith in? is there something that could be done to make sure this process turns out in a way that is good, healthy and strong for american democracy? >> listen, we believe in the supremacy of the law in this country, allegedly. there is an argument we could make on the other side of it, that donald trump was preemptively pardoned when he was born. you know, i grew up in new york. we've seen the entire litany of things, long and complicated career of his. we've also seen the tax issues "the new york times" explored in detail. we've seen the two dozen allegations of some form of sexual assault from women. none of those cases have been prosecuted. we have not seen consequences for any of these things. so the argument that the department of justice is now operating in a politicized fashion requires we think about all of the things that have not been prosecuted before we got to this moment. so i really don't think there is a way we get out of this without actually following the rule of law. >> the new piece is online now for the "new yorker." dean of colombia journalism school, jelani cobb, thank you for your insights this morning. >> thank you. president biden traveled to florida over the weekend to observe the aftermath of hurricane idalia. the trip was coordinated between the white house and the governor's office. florida governor ron desantis did not meet with the president during his trip. >> by the way, it's so strange, for a sitting governor of the state of florida to not be there when the president of the united states comes. i've talked about this before. you know, i ran a campaign against bill clinton. it was against bill and clin hillary clinton. i didn't run against the other people in the race. president clinton came three times to the state the next year, three or four, you know, over the course of the next couple years. i showed up. >> right. >> i thanked him. we all did. republicans, democrats, this is something that brings everybody together. >> basic stuff. >> you're not doing it for a pep rally. you're doing it because when the president of the united states comes to the state, whether republican or democrat, they are coming and that helps the state because aid always follows. desantis not showing up, once again, shows he's just bush league. >> limited. this is what biden had to say when asked about desantis not joining him on the tour of the damage. >> well, no, i'm not disappointed. he may have had other reasons, but he did help us plan this. he sat with fema and decided where we should go, where would be the least disruption, and i'm very pleased. >> classy. >> showed class. >> on friday, the white house initially announced a plan to meet with desantis during biden's visit, but later in the day, the governor's press office issued a statement to nbc news, saying they did not have plans to meet with biden. writing in part, quote, in these rural communities, and so soon after impact, the security preparations alone that would go into setting up such a meeting would shut down ongoing recovery efforts. biden did meet with former florida governor and current senator rick scott at an elementary school being used as a red cross shelter, following a briefing from officials on the recovery efforts. senator scott praised biden and his leadership. >> president did a great job. it was a big deal. it helped all these first responders. then how fast you approved, through fema, the individual assistance, the public assistance and the recovery, it is a big deal. these are not rich communities. these are -- many of them struggle. so what the federal government is doing by fema being a great partner, the federal government being a great partner, is a big deal. so i want to thank you for doing that. >> senator rick scott, who was with me today, i want to thank him for his cooperation and his help. he shares the view i do about fema. they're doing an incredible job. the work, in a sense, is just beginning. we have a lot of work to do. >> you know, man, this is what americans, they really do want this. >> kind of really like it, actually. >> they want people working together. you had joe biden saying something nice about rick scott. rick scott, despite the fact they're idealogical in different worlds, thanked the president, was polite back. again, it's not just politeness for polite sake. you want leaders that can talk together, that can work together. rick scott needs to be able to pick up the phone and call a democratic president, say, "mr. president, i'm having some trouble with fema or having some trouble with some sba loans. what can you do to help us unblock that?" jonathan lemire, i mean, i'm not so old -- well, okay, i am old, but that's how things used to work. i mean, i'd work with bob graham, with chiles, republicans and democrats alike, bill clinton, the clinton administration, and they considered me to be as far right as you can be. but when tragedy hits or when you can help your people, you sit down with everybody and get things done. it's not hard if you put the people first. kudos to rick scott and joe biden, because that's exactly what they did for the people of florida there. >> it's not hard. it's not a moment for politics. it's a moment for bipartisanship, a moment to be united for all americans. it is more than rick scott, president biden, republican and democrat, different ideologies. there is an intense dislike between these men in washington. president biden and his team mocked rick scott's plan during the campaign, yet none of the weekend. the men praised each other and worked for the common good. governor desantis did appear with president biden twice before in previous disasters. a hurricane last summer and a building collapse a couple months into biden's term. what changed? desantis is running for president. it appears his team didn't want this photo-op. they didn't want him standing next to president biden. they didn't want to risk the chris christie, barack obama hug after super storm sandy or any image like that, and he let politics get the better of him that day. >> you talk to the white house, joe biden and ron desantis web talking about week privately. they were in constant contact ahead of the hurricane, during the hurricane and after the hurricane. they were working together, which speaks to the theater of governor desantis not wanting to appear only in public with joe biden. >> well, it's not just the campaigns and not just ron desantis. you know, it's -- i mean, again, i just -- i don't understand it. >> it's so -- >> charlie sykes, the white house also sort of scratched their head when jill biden went down. obviously, cancer is a top concern to joe biden and has been since his son died of cancer. he's talked about the cancer moonshot. he had jill biden going down to the state of florida, inviing casey desantis to tour with her, see the hospitals, including the one where she was treated for cancer. she rebuffed the first lady, refused to show up for that, as well. >> we have a split screen. outrage of humanity, decency, competent governance, versus this pettiness. you look back on what happened in 2012, where chris christie embraced barack obama, and that's become this template for republican politics. you cannot do this. you cannot show up with the president. you cannot have those moments of bipartisan decency. again, this is the difference between viewing politics has performance versus politics as governance. this was a moment, as jonathan mentioned, this is when people come together. you solve a problem. there shouldn't be republican versus democrat. ron desantis, at some level, knows that. he just cannot risk at this point a photo-op, even though, message to ron desantis, you're not going to win this republican nomination. you might as well just do the right thing. can i just throw in here, there is another florida man running for president who we hadn't seen anything of over the last few days. >> yeah. >> good point. >> it's not a surprise at all. >> that's right. >> unfortunately, charlie, it's not just what ron desantis or donald trump does, it's a message sent to younger politicians. >> right. >> ramaswamy used as a punch line, chris christie working with barack obama when the most devastating hurricane in new jersey history destroyed his state, when sandy destroyed the state. >> think about that. >> think about the fact that ramaswamy -- i'm sorry, he knows better -- was cynical enough to use that as a punch line, that a governor would work with the president to help his people. >> yeah. this is interesting. you know, vivek comes up as part of this generation where they see this kind of politics as perfectly normal. the crowd, unfortunately my hometown of milwaukee, went along with all that. imagine, a governor and a president getting together and basically embracing in protecting american citizens, you know, helping them recover from a natural disaster. what an embarrassing moment. this is the downstream of this petty partisanship, where getting the job done and saving people's lives and rebuilding communities somehow becomes a talking point. that we're supposed to regard this as an embarrassing political moment. i can't really overstate how many younger politicians throughout the country have sor. don't get caught doing the right thing, if you're standing next to somebody of the other party. that's where we are today. >> geez, it's sad. >> you look at what rick scott did there. kudos to rick scott and joe biden. >> yeah. >> again, for not just showing class. it's not just being polite. people are so stupid. when you talk about how important this is -- >> trying to help each other. >> ideologues say, you want everybody to hug and sing, "kumbaya." no. >> no. >> i want politicians, i want public servants to serve the public. >> radical idea. >> yeah. >> that's what rick scott and joe biden did. a radical idea whose time has come. >> charlie sykes, thank you very much for being on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," the latest on the war in ukraine as russia appears to look to north korea for help. we'll get analysis from richard haass and nbc's keir simmons. also ahead, the senate gets back to work on capitol hill today. lawmakers have a big to-do list. we'll run through what's on the agenda, including avoiding a government shutdown. and we are remembering the life and legacy of famed musician jimmy buffett. we'll look back at the "margaritaville" singer's career and billion dollar empire. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. my name is kilah and concrete has been my career. i'm a cement mason by trade. being a mom is hard, it's just hard in a different way. it's really unique to catch a break. i feel like joe biden understands people like me. all the things that biden fought to get passed help the middle class. wages are going up around here. the people that i deal with on a day-to-day basis they're getting a pay raise. what president biden has accomplished is actually helping real people. i'm joe biden and i approve this message. sleep more deeply and wake up rejuvenated. purple mattresses exclusive gel flex grid draws away heat relieves pressure and instantly adapts. sleep better. live purple. right now save up to $900 off mattress sets during purple's labor day sale. visit purple.com or a mattress firm near you. russian president vladimir putin reportedly turning to north korean leader kim jong-un for help in supplying weapons. "new york times" reports russia needs help acquiring artillery shells and missiles to use in its war against ukraine. while north korea wants russia to provide advanced tech for satellites and nuclear-powered submarines. kim jong-un also asking for food aid from russia. the meeting between those two leaders expected to occur in russia's far east, on the sidelines of the eastern economic forum set to begin next week. let's bring in nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons, live in london, and president emeritus on the council of foreign relations, richard haass. good morning to you both. richard, what does that tell you, that putin is meeting with kim jong-un, seeking artillery, seeking missiles, in exchange for food? what does it tell you about the state of the war in ukraine? >> tells you something about the state of the world and something about the state of the war. about the world, it shows people like putin have various options. this is a world where you can get stuff, from iran, north korea, dual use things from china. hard to sanction a country like russia, despite what they've done. what it tells you about the war, this is a grind. both sides are consuming munitions and equipment and losing people at an unbelievable rate. the idea that the russians have to go to north korea and others is not surprising. the war could keep going on for not just months but even years. we're halfway through the second fighting season. we're three months into the counteroffensive. the churn rate of this war is high. so this is not a one off. this is essentially a pattern we're going the see repeated. >> it does, keir, seem -- you've covered the russian side of this so closely, reporting from moscow -- does appear, anyway, that putin is dug in. there have been no concessions, no talk of a peace plan, none of that. so he is now turning to people like korea to keep this moving forward. >> yeah, to add to richard's important points, i think in the end, president putin's plan is just keep going. as richard rightly says, you need munitions for that. i mean, i think one measure of how big a deal it is, this potential meeting between president putin and kim jong-un, is how uncomfortable the kremlin sounds this morning, willie. spokesperson refusing in the past few hours to confirm that putin plans to meet with the north korean leader, saying, we have nothing to say on the topic. today, a spokesperson for the national security council saying, a little cryptically, that kim jong-un expects leader-level diplomatic engagement in russia. we take that to mean this potential meeting. we reported from russia's far east the last time kim met put been 2019. kim traveled there by train. that's how he will travel, you would think, because he's so anxious about his security. "the new york times" quote officials saying that's what he plans to do again this month. but it does come on the heels of the defense minister, sergey shoygu, visiting north korea. the national security council sayinging shoygu was trying to convict russia to give more munition. the biden administration is making it known that it knows about this plan to have these meeting in order to try to prevent the meeting from happening and to stop a deal from being done. just to go to another point there about the world, it is also notable, and i think you'll have something to say about this, but it is also notable that both president putin and president xi said they won't go to the g20, but president putin will go to china and meet president xi at a forum for his trillion dollar, one belt, one road program. i think what that phrase shows is ahead, the u.n. general assembly coming, the g20, that meeting between putin and xi, and also potentially -- it's not in any way agreed, apparently, a meeting between president biden and president xi, it frames russia and china continuing to try to build some kind of a international assembly that is separate from influence from the u.s. >> richard, i mean, picking that up there on what kearse was keig about the g20 and the possibility of xi and putin not going to that, how does that play for the united states? look, assuming that joe biden is fine and dr. biden's covid doesn't spread to the president, let's hope he can go to india, but is there a world in which, actually, if america turns up to speak at the indians at the moment, where india is a key player in all this, actually, not having the russians and chinese there, could it play to america's strengths? modi is going to want this meeting to be a success, so he'll want some deal with somebody. the americans are there and russians and chinese aren't. >> only to a point. if indian foreign policy is anything, it's the institutionalization of hedging, of keeping your options open. the indians are wildly dependent on russia for energy imports, particularly, you know, cheap energy, also for their arms. i don't see the indians supporting a document coming out of the g20 that is violently anti-russian. what's interesting to me is that xi is not going there. the relationship between india and china, which has been at times filled with friction, is potentially getting worse. i wouldn't be surprised if we see new border skirmishes between the two. to me, the really interesting question was what's going on in china? why is xi jinping, against the backdrop of a flailing economy, why is he not going to the g20? why is the ministry saying he might not even come to the united states in november? why is china basically playing real hardball, as doing diplomacy is a favor to the rest of the world? that's the mystery a lot of us are struggling with. >> the biden administration didn't anticipate xi and the president would meet in india. they are banking on the one in san francisco. we'll see if that changes. keir, let's shift back to ukraine for a moment. some significant headlines out of kyiv. president zelenskyy has replaced his defense minister, firing the current occupant. there is suggestion of perhaps some corruption involved, and that's been an issue throughout the conflict and predating the conflict. what is the latest about what is happening there? as it comes during this pivotal counteroffensive, which has gone very slowly but seems to be showing progress as of late. >> yeah, a little bit of progress. it depends on how you frame it. i guess, in a way, you could argue there's been a challenge in terms of managing expectations. if ukraine's hope is to get to the sea of azov and basically cut off russia's land, supply lines, particularly to crimea, at the moment, clearly, that's not gaining that. you always have to say when we talk about this, inevitably, it is the fault of war, so you just don't know. maybe it's possible, and as you know, there have been headlines the past few days suggesting this, maybe ukraine has managed to make some progress getting past those incredibly difficult russian mine fields, and now is going to be able to push on more effectively. in terms of the removal of the ukrainian defense minister, again, i mean, you canview that as an indication that president zelenskyy has not been happy with how things are going, but there could be all kinds of other reasons for why. it doesn't look, does it, like a very strong offensive if you are having to remove your defense minister in the middle of it. you know, you have to be careful to kind of play the armchair role rather than fully understanding what exactly is going on on the ground. again, richard's point, i think, was right at the beginning of all this. you know, russia, people who watch russia closely that i talk to, who know well folks in russian security establishment in the kremlin, they -- but aren't as advocates for russia, they're talking about months, if not years of conflict at this point. >> a long slog to be sure. keir simmons, thank you. richard, before we let you know, we're looking desperately for silver linings in a lost yankees season. we have the martian, the kid called up, dominguez, looked great in houston. swept the houstonastros. 18 games out. >> eight games out of the wild card. september is a long month, willie. we're not mathematically out of it yet. plus, if that fails, giants/cowboys. >> there you go. >> i'm feeling good about the season. >> sunday nighter here on nbc. >> new jersey. >> the future looks great. the young kids for the yankees look good so far. don't stay anything, jonathan. trying to stay positive. mika? >> there ya go. thank you, richard. russia's permanent seat on the united nations security council allows it to invite whoever it wants to speak at meetings. that's causing issues there. in february, russia had roger waters, a co-founder of pink floyd who has repeatedly accused the west of provoking the russia's invasion, address the council. "the wall street journal" is calling attention to other instances of russia inviting sympathetic voices to speak on its behalf, including a professor at plum columbia, and an american writer who frequently blamed the west for the war in ukraine. coming up, a burning man exodus is under way, after a weekend of mud and rain isolated thousands in the nevada desert. how long attendees have to wait to escape, and what the ceo is saying about the situation on the ground. "morning joe" will be right back. (vo) in three seconds, janice will win a speedboat. (woman) bingo! i'm moving to the lake. gotta sell the house. (vo) ooh! that's a lot of work. (woman) ooh! (vo) don't worry. skip the hassels and sell directly to opendoor. (woman) bingo. 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>> hitchhike, i don't know. >> reporter: a caravan of cars and rvs crawling toward civilization. >> we're making it out. >> reporter: the trek out of the slowly drying mud taking some more than 6 hours. the backup stretching for miles. this was not how burning man was supposed to go. friday, six days into the week-long festival, celebrating art, music and community, a deluge turned the dry desert into a giant, muddy mess. for some burners, the rain did nothing to dampen their spirit. >> this has given us the opportunity to rise to radical self-reliance and to support each other in the community. >> reporter: for others, the mud was more than they bargained for. >> i was scared. i didn't know what to do. >> reporter: two months of rain in two days, forcing authorities to close roads in and out of the massive pop-up city, stranding thousands. over the weekend, burning man ceo preaching patience. >> there is no great chaos, no panic. >> reporter: some opting to hike out, including celebrities. >> we ventured out with josh kushner, karlie kloss, cindy crawford, chris rock, and some writers. we went together. >> reporter: dibldiplo says goi through the slop was part of the experience. >> it was a victory that day, it felt nice. >> reporter: amid the exodus, the festival continued undaunted, concluding with the burning of the man. the burning man flame as bright as ever. >> nbc with that report. still ahead on -- >> maybe we need to go there. >> no. >> next year. >> still ahead on "morning joe," a conversation on faith and ideology following comments by pope francis criticizing some catholic leaders in the united states. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." ♪ chevy silverado has what it takes to do it all. with up to 13 camera views. and the z71 off-road package. ♪ you ok? yeah. any truck can help you make a living. this one helps you build a life. chevy silverado. beautiful shot of new york city, ten minutes before the top of the hour. pope francis has openly criticized some conservative american catholics for what he suggested was a backward and narrow view of the church. the pope added that some american conservatives insisted on a narrow, outdated vision that fixated on social issues like abortion and sexuality without focusing on caring for the poor and the environment. he made these remarks during a private meeting in lisbon last month. let's bring in father james martin. he's an american jesuit priest and editor at large of the jesuit magazine america. he's the author of a new book that is out today entitled "come forth: the promise of jesus' greatest miracle." >> i want to talk about your book, but i want to tread a little lightly. i'm going to tread a little lightly as a southern baptist and an evangelical. i have no problem talking about my church. i know where my church has been. i know where it is right now. i understand a lot of the christian nationalism that's overtaken it. i have been very, very -- i've just been at a loss exactly what american catholicism -- i went to pensacola catholic high school, and it seemed to be a different catholic church. i mean, at times i would make fun of how it was almost, you know, sort of like, you know, everybody whip out the acoustic guitars and do the kumbaya thing. and in some ways it was a little too left of center for me at the time. but what i'm seeing with a lot of my catholic friends, people who go to catholic churches, just this radical shift to the far, far right, and the very things they taught us about the catholic high school, matthew 25, i mean, the things that jesused about in the bible, caring for the poor, being passionate, being forgiving of others, all the things i was taught, now sometimes when i talk to my catholic friends all they want to talk about is abortion and gay marriage, like this politicized view of the bible on two issues jesus never talked about. talk about that development in the catholic church. it's a lot. i don't get it. then i promise we'll talk about the book, which is incredibly important. >> thanks. it is a surprise to a lot of people. it's a surprise to pope francis. he was responding to a question that he was asked about that very i would say strong conservative even reactionary part of the catholic church that really is opposing a lot of pope francis' way of proceeding. i think they were caught unawares by this pope who was very focused on the poor, on social justice, on mercy, and as you say, there are some catholics who are more focused on particular issues which are important but which the pope is reminding us there are other important issues as well. he is very much a matthew 25 person, looking at how we treat the least of our brothers and sisters. >> if you look at the red letters, i mean, jesus' own words, what the pope is talking about is what jesus was talking about, compassion, mercy, caring for the poor. let's talk about your book. here's a thing i've always wondered about lazarus, because you focus on jesus raising lazarus from the dead. why lazarus? there are so many times that we pray for deliverance for people we love, and we don't get that miracle, but we do get a piece around certain things. why did jesus choose lazarus to perform this miracle on? >> that's a great question. lazarus is described in the gospels, his sisters say to jesus, "he whom you love is ill." it's a lovely designation, and it shows jesus was good friends with lazarus and mary. in book, i talk about how this story reminds us that god calls all of us to new life, to leave behind in the tomb, as it were, anything that keeps us from following god more closely. and so the story, while it's about lazarus in particular, it's about all of us. >> people who read the story of lazarus, father, and look for meaning in their own life, contemporary meaning, you point to a fact that it's story about life, it begins with death, but it's about life. >> we have things that keep us bound, addictions, bad patterns of behavior, that we're asked by god to let go of, to die in the tomb as it were. and here god calls to new life. it's about new life for all of us. >> why did you write this book now, in this particular moment? is there something about the world we live in where the story would be helpful to people? >> the story of lazarus always has appeal. i wrote it in particular because it's one of my favorite stories and i've led pilgrimages to the holy land, and visiting the tomb is powerful. but in light of covid and some of the things going on today in the world where we feel kind of dead and hopeless, it really offers us a lot of hope and a lot of newness of life. >> what are some things that can inspire that renewal, that idea of turning a page, of finding a new chapter, being reborn? >> a great question. one of the things for believers is knowing who's calling us, but it's not just a self-improvement project or responding, say, like a therapist, as important as those things are, but it's god himself calling us into new life. i think when we remember who's calling us, just like lazarus had to trust in the voice at the tomb calling him forth, we have a lot more confidence. >> the new book out today is "come forth: the promise of jesus' greatest miracle." father james martin, thank you very much for coming on the show today. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> i appreciate it. still ahead on "morning joe," it is sharpton versus ramaswamy again. the reverend turned the tables on the gop candidate, grilling him over his lack of political experience following the viral 2003 exchange. we'll show you that moment and hear what reverend al has to say about it ahead. on "morning joe." ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? 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(chainsaw revs) (tree crashes) (chainsaw continues) (daughter screams) let's pretend for a second that you didn't let down your entire family. what would that reality look like? well i guess i would've gotten us xfinity... and we'd have a better view. do you need mulch? what, we have a ton of mulch. those concerns about his age as he seeks a second term. it is an issue that continues to show up in polling, including a new one from the "wall street journal," which we'll get to this morning. that survey also shows donald trump's lead in the republican presidential primary growing. we'll have much more on those numbers and hypothetical rematch of 2020 in just a moment. >> i have to say, willie and i, we face this off and on. >> you do. >> 47. a couple young kids coming back from the war. >> heroes. not ours. >> i never said it. i never said it. but it seems every 10, 15 years, growing a little long in the tooth, willie, but we just keep on keeping on. >> yeah. despite the "wall street journal" polling about you and me, actually, which is very negative, disconcerting. >> horrible. >> we'll dig into it, but this is a new tack we saw from joe biden and the white house perhaps as we're turning the corner about a year and change away from election day, to confront this age issue. >> he says he doesn't change. like when i say you like a five-spot. that's just the way we talk. >> willie, in your old category. >> we are old enough to remember when duke used beat clemson in football. that's how old we are. >> okay. >> first of all, duke beats clemson, right. fsu the night before routs lsu. never saw that coming. alabama rolls over middle tennessee state. i'm telling you, i thought middle tennessee state would win by two or three touchdowns. >> they're doing some things in murfreesboro. college football turned upside-down this year, mika. meanwhile, half of congress returns to capitol hill today with a long to-do list, including a new federal budget, but demands from far-right members of the house could complicate getting a deal done before the end of the month. we'll follow that. plus, vladimir putin is turning to another dictator for more weaponry for his war in ukraine. >> can you imagine, willie, russia's fate sinking so low that he's got to go to north korea, like, to save his military? it's just unbelievable. >> yeah. this is a real tell about where things are right now. if you have to go to north korea of all places. kim jong-un is going to make a trip, which he doesn't do often reportedly, to visit vladimir putin, i don't know, give him a pep talk along with some weapons. he counts among his allies apparently kim jong-un and north korea. that's where russia is right now. >> terrific. >> and we're going to make a nice segue here, not a nice segue, a sad segue, just not a very smooth one. three musicians passed away over the weekend, gary wright, who did "dream weeper ex"the lead singer of smash mouth and our good friend jimmy buffett. that came as a real surprise to us. i'm sure you, too, willie. you know, we've known jimmy for a long time, and see him regularly, talk to him, text him. it's just a real shock. we knew -- we saw him last october was it? we saw him -- we saw him at our place last october, and he seemed to be doing pretty well. but you could tell he was -- he was fighting something. but he was a very quiet guy about that sort of stuff. but within of the loveliest people you'll ever want to meet. just a great, great guy. >> yeah. i woke up to that news alert saturday morning. you're right, it was a shock. it seemed like the kind of guy who was going to be here forever, and we hoped he would be. we learned yesterday from his camp he had an aggressive form of skin cancer he'd been fighting for four years and died at his home in sag harbor on long island in new york. but, yeah, joe, first and foremost, a wonderful, warm man. as we heard from so many tributes. and i would argue, joe, you're our music expert, but an underrated musician, if you can call him that, given his popularity, just in term of his song writing. when you maer paul mccartney saturday lavishing praise on him as an artist and say they just collaborate on a song or elton john or years ago bob dylan saying jimmy buffett, one of the greatest songwriters he ever heard and listened to. so he was a great, great man, and we miss him a lot, but a great songwriter, a great musician. >> always underestimated i think by the critics of his day. >> i think he underestimated himself. he said i'm not that -- >> well, here's the deal. he's from the gulf coast. we are from the same neck of the woods. we grew up together in that area. so that may have been a little false modesty. jimmy knew he was good, but he was humble, and by the way, it's a businessman. just extraordinary. >> yes. >> he played this, like, laid-back sort of beach bum, but he was always working, just worked around the clock because he loved doing it. but, you know, it's so funny, last time we were talking to him, we were talking about his music and how, you know, he's been underestimated. and i said, yeah, i mean, it's pretty incredible, bob dylan, and he finished my sentence, he said, yes, that was his favorite songwriter. he kind of smiled because -- not bad, huh? so if you get dylan saying you're his favorite songwriter, you really don't care what rock critics are saying, do you. >> no. just listening to his music, you can't go anywhere in any destination without seeing a margaritaville restaurant or the business imprint he left that did make him a billionaire, but it's the music and the soundtrack, particularly on a long labor day weekend, you could hear it everywhere you went. that was a soundtrack for so many people. >> he's an alabama boy. it was so nice seeing brian denny stadium, all 90,000 of them, erupting in margaritaville on saturday night. >> beautiful. >> beautiful tribute. and jimmy would have loved that. >> so sad. >> he would have loved all the kind things, the wonderful things that came from all over the place. he would have been really pleased with paul mccartney and all the beautiful things paul said about jimmy. it meant a lot to him, just like he meant the world to millions of fans. i will just say, ending here, i asked him during covid when he was getting ready to go back out on the road, i said, well, you know, it's kind of tumultuous out there politically, are you seeing it in the shows? he goes no, it's kind of beautiful. he said the crowd is about 50/50. it's a mix. i can tell. i talk to people. they're about 50/50. this was, you know, going into the presidential election. he said it's about 50/50, and what's so beautiful is when i come to my show, that stays outside and it's about the music. it's about everybody getting together having a good time. isn't that beautiful? >> just about says it all. >> a hell of a lot more people like that. >> absolutely. we'll have much more on his life coming up on "morning joe," along with joe, willie and me, and we have the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire, u.s. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay is with us. pulitzer prize-winning columnist and associate editor of the washington post, eugene robinson, and attorney and contributing columnist at "the washington post," george conway is with us this morning. so, the senate is back in session today, the house is set to return next week, and lawmakers have a long list of items waiting for them. at the top of the list, the federal budget, which is set to expire on september 30th and will need to be renewed to avoid a full-fledged government shutdown. also hanging in the balance is the fallout from senator tommy tuberville's hold on military nominations. >> this is getting so serious. you now have the leaders of the branches of our armed services saying you're really, really damaging readiness for our troops across the world. >> i don't know what he thinks he's doing. this is on military nominations. there's a hold because of him. three of america's five military branches do not have a senate-confirmed service chief in place. many generals and admirals are being forced to perform two roles simultaneously. that fact has prompted the secretaries of the navy, the air force, and the army to co-write an op-ed for "the washington post" entitled "three service secretaries to tuberville: stop this dangerous old on senior officers." they write in part, "we are proud to work alongside exceptional military leaders who are skilled, motivated, and empowered to protect our you are in. these officers and the millions of service members they lead are the foundation of america's enduring military advantage. yet this foundation is being actively eroded by the actions of a single u.s. senator, tommy tuberville, who is blocking the confirmation of our most senior military officers. thus far, the hold has prevented the defense department from placing almost 300 of our most experienced and battle-tested leaders into critical posts around the world. three of our five military branches -- the army, navy, and marine corps -- have no senate-confirmed service chief in place." >> this is just insane. >> "instead, these jobs and dozens of others across the force are being performed by acting officials without the full range of legal authorities necessary to make the decisions that will sustain the united states military edge." >> they can't make the decisions that they need to make. that's impacting readiness. i know tommy tuberville doesn't care, obviously. >> but he knows this. >> on a personal level, planning for service families, for children of service members, they should be in their new locations, in their new schools. everything's been held up. their lives have been put on hold because the promotions aren't going through. and then of course planning for our military, long-term planning for our military can't be done because, as these service chiefs said, they don't have a full range of power to make a lot of those decisions, so readiness is at risk. willie, you know, the republicans are forfeiting what they always claim to have, which is some special weight with the military, despite the fact they've spent years trashing the united states military, saying they wish they were more like russians, saying they're weak, they're woke. that's all a lie. our military is stronger than it's ever been. and the rest of the world, the strongest it's been since 1945. and yet you have one republican senator that other republican senators are allowing him to do, one republican senator damaging the readiness of the united states armed forces in a way that just makes vladimir putin and makes the communist chinese, makes the north koreans, makes everybody so happy that one senator is able to damage the united states military's readiness as much as tommy tuberville is able to do that. you have to start asking questions. why is he doing this? the republicans supposedly don't want him to do this. the people of alabama don't want him to do this. why does he continue acting in a way that damages the readiness of the united states military? it just makes no sense. >> and he says he's doing it because he doesn't want the military to allow its service members to travel between states for abortions, for reproductive care. so this is the political hill he's willing to die on. and you're right, you have people like mitch mcconnell saying i disagree with what senator tuberville is doing. but under our rules, he can do it. well, do you not have any power -- does the other republican leadership not have any power over senator tuberville to say, hey, knock this off, you've made your point? john, i'll add more numbers here. the pentagon said last week 301 generals and admirals are sitting in limbo right now, including 83 three-star and four-star nominations, generals pending right now. and again, a lot of republicans in the senate have said they disagree with what tuberville is doing. but he continues. and he will continue. and this has become his pet issue. his argument last week, he said people have known for a long time that the u.s. military is top heavy, saying we have too many generals, so that this isn't a big deal in his view. >> this is the first time in history so many of these seats have sat ohm. of course this isn't just impacting generals. it's impacting regular troops and their families who are -- can't know what the future holds because they're on hold because they are in limbo because of this. and there are multiple things going on here. we mentioned mitch mcconnell. this is one of the things that's raised eyebrows in washington, wondering if his power is diminished with his ongoing health issues. he pushes back on that, but that is persistent in d.c. right now. democrats have been critical of this throughout. schumer has denounced this at every turn. the unhappiness behind the scenes from republicans is growing, but there hasn't been a push to get tuberville to stop. even if they're unhappy, they're letting him command the stage like this. it comes at moment of course where we have a land war in europe, where the united states is trying to increase its readiness posture, because of that, because of potential challenges from china down the road, from rogue actors like north korea and iran, those in the white house are furious on this. and it becomes evident nearly every day from president biden, who is loathe to criticize his former senate colleagues by name, those he served with, those he didn't, such respect for the institution, he is no longer loathe to criticize senator tuberville for what he's doing. >> i mean, george conway, back when we were republicans, we used to take great pride in how much we fought for the strengthening of the united states military, the readiness of the united states military. i was on armed services four terms for a reason, because that's what my constituents wanted, that's what republican constituents used to want. now we have republicans who are saying the united states military, which is the strongest in the world -- just is. just not a close second. we now have tommy tuberville saying, republicans saying that oh, the military is top heavy. who said that? nobody. nobody that knows anything about how strong our military is. then you have republicans saying, we need to be more like the russians, we need to be more manly like the russians, like the russians' military. you have republicans that say the military is weak and it's woke and republicans saying that our leaders are stupid and fat pigs. i mean, the insults just keep flying towards extraordinarily strong, vital united states military. and if anybody thinks we're weak, just ask the 500 russian troops that tried to bum rush the united states military in syria a few years back. you can't really ask them because they were all gunned down, all blown apart in about three minutes. so why is it that just republicans have this blind spot when it comes to how strong and how successful and how good our united states military is? why do nies republicans hate the united states military so much? >> they hate the united states military because it's part of the united states government, and this is basically -- republicans have become anti-government, anti-the united states. that's their shtick now. that's why you see them attacking law enforcement, the fbi, the justice department, state and federal prosecutors, and attack the institutions that normally republicans were very, very supportive of. what now is now this nihilistic attack on american institutions. it's also -- brings to mind the fact that we live in a completely different era now. i mean, the senate rules that allow one senator to block a unanimous consent agreement to have these batch nominations sent to the floor, i mean, all these rules, these arcane senate rules we talk about, we don't really talk about, but just curious effects, depend on good faith of the members, good faith in collegiality of the members. and there's one thing that the republican party has completely abandoned, which is not just the truth but good faith. coming up, the last politician, author frank foer joins us with his new book on president biden and what he calls the struggle for america's future. mmm, popcorn. 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queen sleep number c2 smart bed is now only $999. plus free home delivery when you add an adjustable base. shop now only at sleep number. we do have new polling from the "wall street journal" that has president joe biden and donald trump in a dead heat in a 2024 general election matchup. in the survey, 46% say they would vote for biden, while 46% say they would vote for trump. 8% say they are undecided. so in this conversation, mixing this and -- really shows you where the country is at, joe. >> gene, just look at the numbers. you've got 46% of americans supporting a guy who's been indicted four times, indicted for stealing nuclear secrets, indicted for stealing war plans, called a rapist by a new york judge, saying what he did was akin to rape. you've got a guy that's being charged for illegal payoffs to porn stars. i mean, we could go down the list. a guy who started a riot on january 6th, the insurrection, had fake electors, had this fraudulent scheme to steal votes from millions and millions of americans in seven swing states. i could go on. called the republican secretary of state in georgia and said, steal enough votes for me, find enough votes so i can steal georgia. 46% of americans are voting for the guy who said he would terminate the constitution to get back into power. >> yeah. those numbers are unbelievable, but yet there they are. i mean, the "wall street journal" does good polling, and, you know, any one poll can be an outlier, but there have been a lot of polls that indicate that if it's a trump/biden rematch, this is going to be a close election. and, again, that stupefies me. it should not be a close election. there is no way that any substantial portion the electorate should support donald trump after we saw -- what we saw during the four years of donald trump's presidency. after what we have seen in the years since donald trump's presidency. after all the felony criminal charges filed against him in four cases with what is basically open-and-shut evidence. you know, the man is an accused felon, what, 91 times or something like that, the total number of counts against him, yet for potentially 46% of americans, they're willing to return him to the white house. its certainly lays out -- what this poll i think does, should lay out to democrats that this is going to be a close election, they can't take anything for granted, they should assume it's going to be decided by perhaps tens of thousands of voters in the swing states that we all know about, and they better get cracking now, because there's a real risk, and i can't believe i'm saying this, there is a risk that donald trump could return to the white house. >> and there is such a disconnect, katty kay, between polling numbers and the reality, and a lot of democrats are trying to figure out why exactly that is. you look inside the poll, a large number of democrats just say joe biden is too old. he's too old. the numbers don't add up. you look at the economic numbers, for instance. you go down the list, going into labor day weekend, "wall street journal" headline, "resilient u.s. economy defies expectations." that's in rupert murdoch's "wall street journal." you look at other "wall street journal" articles, they talk about strong job numbers, that wages are outpacing inflation, that americans are getting, quote, another raise because of this economy, another "wall street journal" -- again, again, i'm sorry, republicans, rupert murdoch's "wall street journal," there's another "wall street journal" article recently that talks about how, despite what every economist has been saying over the past couple years, the united states economy looks like it's going to be able to stick the landing, it's going to have a smooth recovery without a recession. again, all good news. but there's this massive disconnect. and you look at people giving disapproval -- high disapproval numbers on the economy. 37% approve, 59% disapprove. katty, in other polls, 74% of americans say that their economic situation is good. you look at inflation, the numbers are upside-down. inflation is cooling. it's just absolutely incredible. improving infrastructure, he passes a bipartisan infrastructure bill, like a massive record-breaking infrastructure bill. he's upsidedown there. dealing with china, he's been tougher on china than any president. look at what we've been doing with our security partners in the philippines, in japan, in south korea, in australia, on and on. we could go down the entire list. and the numbers don't add up, katty. and a lot of democrats are saying it's because he's too old. that's what's underlying the entire poll is joe biden's numbers are low because right now americans think he's too old to do the job. >> yeah. i wrote a piece about this in the bbc saying this is the alice in wonderland election, what's up is down and what's down is up, because none of it seems to make sense. you have donald trump with a slew of indictments yet he's soaring in the republican primary polls. and joe biden and the economy, you have unemployment 3.8%, it's ticked up a little bit, but it's still low, inflation coming back down to 3%, incredibly low by the standards of most western countries where it's up at 6%, 7%, 8%. america is doing much better economically. why is it people aren't feeling this? partly, yes, interest rates are high, and that is hurting some people, and prices are still higher than they were before covid, and i guess people are still feeling some of that. but i think you're right, that there is the age factor is playing into this. and i know how frustrated the white house is on both of those counts. they hope that by sending joe biden out around the country and that wants more of the money that's being pledged in things like the chips act and the i.r.a. gets into projects around the country, that maybe they'll start to see some kind of return in the polls. joe biden can joke about it, but it's still a looming factor. where mitch mcconnell has incidents like he had over the weekend, like he had a couple weeks ago, that doesn't help the president either because it raises again the idea that there's a group of leadership at the top that -- where there is an age question about everybody. he's just going to have to keep stating the numbers like you just have in terms of the economy and hoping that the american public starts getting some recognition for an economy that is doing better than almost any other western economy in the world. >> well, and you look at the front page of "new york times," china's economy really teetering on the brink of a massive recession right now. we're dealing with china, russia, please, even our european allies. our economy is doing better than just about any economy in the world, and yet, again, there's this massive disconnect. and you go into these poll number, and the massive disconnect comes from this -- we'll go to lemire because he's obviously been closest to this this. we were going to go to break because we have frank foer on the other side of this. but we have to bring you in, man. the white house doesn't want to talk about age, i understand, but it colors everything. it colors everything. if you look at what he's done in foreign policy, you look at how the economy is going right now, these are numbers that should be giving any president a huge lift, and it's just not happening here. >> no. and the white house, they are aware of this. and the dnc is aware of this. their election campaign is aware of this. they point out with some frustration that donald trump is only three years younger than joe biden. >> exactly. >> the "wall street journal" poll suggests, though, you see it, 73% of those respondents say biden's too old, only 4% say trump is. this is a baked-in perception and that's something they're trying to overcome. we should note this poll, relatively small sample, it's also done by -- one of the pollsters involved was a trump-affiliated manafort group. but it's just one poll. it's something this white house, the overall met ricks are consistent with what we've heard from others -- age is a concern. the white house points to these issues where they feel like the economy is improving, and though poll after poll suggests americans don't feel great about it, there are underlying numbers that americans at the same time say i have a little more money in my pocket than i used to. i can go on vacation. i couldn't do that a year ago. they think that will come to the surface sometime next year twinned with the impact of the affordable care act and the infrastructure bill, and americans next year will feel better about the economy. they also feel like next year, when donald trump is actually sitting in a courtroom on trial, that that will also bring trump's numbers down, that we're seeing an artificial high from his base, and it will be different when it gets to independent and swing voters. but the end line, at this point in 2015, at this point in 2019, donald trump was well behind hillary clinton and joe biden respectively. this time they're dead even. >> right. well, joe biden is the same president. two quick things, then we go to break. one is joe biden's always underestimated. he's always going to lose. >> yeah. >> he's always the guy, you know, after iowa and new hampshire, he was dead in the water. democrats said it then. they said it before the election. they said it after he got elected time and again, he's too old, he's outdated, he can't get anything done. then he passes more bipartisan legislation than anybody in 20, 25 years. they said the same thing before the 2022 election, he's too old, his party is going to get crushed, there's going to be a red wave. there's not a red wave. that's one thing. second is the abortion issue. it will be a big issue in 2024 again. it's been nonstop since that right was taken from women. >> that, and are you better off than you were four years ago? that's the question. we'll have more from this poll coming up. also ahead, president biden marks donald trump's time in office during a speech in battleground pennsylvania. what it says about his campaign's strategy heading into 2024. what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ trelegy for copd. ♪birds flyin' high, you know how i feel.♪ ♪breeze driftin' on by...♪ ♪...you know how i feel.♪ you don't have to take... 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in about six months, things got very different. you have to let the process play out. >> that is republican governor of new hampshire chris sununu on "meet the press" over the weekend. in the latest "wall street journal" poll, 59% of republican primary voters say trump is their choice nor 2024. that's up from 48% in april. all the way down there in second place, down 11 points from april, is florida governor ron desantis at 13%. so he's down now 46 points in this national poll behind donald trump. all other candidates down in single digits. the poll also shows most republicans think the criminal cases against donald trump are illegitimate, especially the two related to election interference. 70% of primary republican voters believe they are illegitimate, while 20% say they are legitimate. overall, 48% of republicans say the charges against trump make them more likely to vote for him. only 16% say the charges make them less likely to support him. 36% say the charges have no impact on their support for the former president. so, george conway, we had that debate a couple weeks ago where donald trump obviously wasn't there, nikki haley didn't have a good night, chris christie was strong, vivek ramaswamy was at the center of it all, yet they're still toiling in single digits. this is donald trump's nomination to lose. we know it's a national poll, that this is not the way a national election is decided. but gosh, if you're up by 46 points after labor day, you've got to be feeling pretty good about your chances. >> yeah. i think there's no question he's going to win this nomination, whether or not he's convicted or indicted -- i mean convicted or incarcerated. i think he's going to win the nomination. i think he's going to clinch it even before -- excuse me -- the january 6th case here in the district of columbia goes to trial. so we could end up with a guy running for president with a criminal conviction, a guy running for president from jail, possibly, if he acts up and gets remanded. it's just -- what's going on here is 2016 all over again. you have one man with name recognition who everyone knows, and then you have 17 other people running against him, or i don't know how many. and it splits it up. the only way you can beat him possibly is you have to run head to head against him, one-on-one, and that's not going to happen. and you have to go after him with a hammer and remind people of the things they don't like about him. republicans say he didn't build the wall and this and that and all sorts of things that wouldn't appeal to the general electorate, but they have to go hammer and tong at him and they just won't do it. >> the thing is everybody wants these republicans to consolidate behind one person to run against him. they're not going to do it. but, you know, the billionaire class can do it. the money people can do it. they can get on the phone and say, listen, you know, desantis just doesn't have it or he does, or look at nikki haley. she had a good night. tim scott didn't have a good night. a lot of these other people didn't have a good night. we need to get our money behind one candidate. seems to me, you know, it's just not logical. there's just -- no politician is going to step out of the way. but the money class in the republican party, their benefactors can. and if they want to save their party, they probably need to start thinking about that. gene, what can i say about my former partner? very little that's good. four indictments. they're more likely to vote for him because he got caught stealing nuclear secrets. they're more likely to vote for him because he got caught stealing war plans to invade iran. they're more likely to vote for him because he got caught stealing an assessment about america's weaknesses. he took them out of secure locations. he showed them to people. he's saying i shouldn't be showing this to you because it's classified. i can't declassify it because i'm not president anymore. if i were president, i could classify it. they've got him dead to rights on all of this stuff, and yet the republicans say they're more likely to vote for him because he stole nuclear secrets, because he stole war plans, because he got caught with illegal hush money payment to a porn star, which weirdly enough, that's the issue that these republicans say is the most legitimate when it's also the one that most legal scholars say is the least legitimate. so, what can you say about a party that is more likely to vote for somebody because they've been indicted four times for stealing america's most important military secrets? >> well, look, i think we, the voters, have to destroy the republican party in order to save it. that's the only thing -- that's what has to happen, because the republican party right now, your former party, is actually nothing like your former party. it's nothing like the party you came up in. it's certainly not the party of ronald reagan, who -- it would be totally unwelcome in today's republican party. some sort of squish or rhino or whatever. this is a chaotic, in many ways authoritarian, kind of conglomeration that's not an organized political party, that doesn't have a coherent philosophy or governing program except tear it down. and that's -- that's not sustainable. the way political parties reform is they get crushed at the polls, and then they change. until that happens, they generally don't change. and so, until that happens, enough times, it would have to happen repeatedly, i don't know how the republican party gets out of this sort of circling the drain kind of stasis that it's in. it's just -- it's just appalling. it really is. we haven't seen anything like it in my lifetime, and we i hope we never do again. >> for now, it appears voirts, according to this poll, and several others, want more of what they saw in donald trump. let's bring in staff writer at "the atlantic," frank foer, author of "the last politician: inside joe biden's white house." continue grants on the book. >> thank you. >> a lot of people talking about it and have opinions about it already. we were talking a minute ago about this issue of age within that "wall street journal" poll. >> yes. >> something the white house can't run from, because it is not just republicans, it is democrats who say 7 in 10 are worried about joe biden's age, 08 years old, despite the fact he's only three years older than donald trump. how is the white house managing this? how seriously are they taking it? has it changed in the last few months? >> of course it's changed getting closer to the election. they could have leaned into this issue much earlier, because the story i tell in my book is of a president who is extremely experienced, who's dealing with these very difficult foreign policy changes, we're fighting a proxy war against a major nuclear power, our relationship with china has become incredibly tense, and he has to thread the needle on these things. the fact he served on the senate foreign relations committee all those years, he was vice president, that experience has allowed him to do something that's extremely difficult and extremely consequential. but they've run away from the age issue and kind of ignored the fact that, you know, anybody with eyes can see that joe biden is extremely old. >> one issue that they have leaned into, of course, is his leadership on the world stage. your book has revelations about how he's managed the war in ukraine and trying to keep that alliance together. >> yes. >> but also his relationship with ukraine and president zelenskyy. tell us about it. >> it's a complicated relationship. it got off on the wrong foot. the first meeting they had in the white house, there was this sense that zelenskyy, who was just getting boo politics, he was a comedian, wasn't up to the job. biden, this wisdomed politician, didn't truly respect zelenskyy at that first meeting and it was tense. over time, it's remained a little bit of a difficult relationship, that when on the eve of the war, the united states had russia's war plans in tech any color and they tried to get zelenskyy to take defensive action. those meetings were difficult. whatever zelenskyy was doing in private to protect ukraine he communicated to the president or the united states in public. over time it's become more mature. now the united states' military and ukrainian military are integrated in a very profound sort of way. one thing biden's political skills have allowed him do is overcome the fact that this world of ours just a couple of years ago was basically indifferent to global authoritarianism. he's helped rally the alliance and get the aid moved through congress in epic proportions. coming up, one of our next guests says he will miss covering bill richardson. he reflects on the life and legacy of bill richardson, who died on friday at the age of 75. that conversation is just ahead on "morning joe." that conversation is just ahead on "morning joe. that's some bad luck brian. and i think i'm late on my car insurance. good thing the general gives you a break when you need it. yeah, with flexible payment options to keep you covered. so today is your lucky...day [crash] so today is your lucky...day for a great low rate, go with the general. ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪♪ ) constant contact's advanced automation lets you send the right message at the right time, every time. 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(psst psst) flonase. all good. ♪♪ a live look at los angeles. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east. jonathan lemire is back with us. and the president of the national action network and host of "politics nation" reverend al sharpton joins the conversation. good to have you. >> willie, i'm just curious, have we given up yet on the yankees and the red sox? >> we've most definitely given up on this year. we're 18 games out despite a surprise sweep of the astros over the weekend. we've not given up on the future of the yankees because we're getting a glimpse at it. the bullpen had a good season. and el marciano hitting two home runs in that astro series. the future, not the present, the future is bright. >> jonathan lemire, just playing incredible baseball for the red sox. of course, some other young players that are really good. this is one of the most frustrating sox years of teams in many years. it's 4 1/2 games back from the wildcard. i still think the yankees are going to blow past all of us and crush everybody's heart. but they looked good yesterday. again, as they say in european football, it's the hope that kills you. >> no team has ever gone undefeated in september, but the yankees have so far this month. this could be the first time they go 28-0, adding another impressive chapter to the storied history of the bronx bombers. really it's a fight for fourth. the sox are up 3 1/2 on the yankees. for both the yankees and red sox alike, it's about next year. brian baio pitched really well yesterday. costas had been good. the hope is to build on next year. this was a flawed team from the beginning. you just feel like if they got a little more help from the front office, they actually would be in the playoffs. >> the dodgers are one of the best teams in baseball. also the national league, the wildcard race, though, is crazy. there are like four teams that are virtually tied fighting for that last spot. >> interesting new teams like the miami marlins are right up there, the cincinnati reds are having a good season and hanging in. this is a look at the wildcard. you have five teams who have a claim to that spot. it has been fun this year watching the texas rangers having a good year, teams we don't always see late in september talking playoffs, but here we are. >> phillies look good. they have a thunderous offense. the cubs have the weakest schedule in the sport the rest of the way, so they look pretty good. you have four teams separated by one game from that last playoff spot. despite the yankees and red sox struggles, this has been a really good year for baseball. akuhn owe, ohtani, mookie betts. the pitch clock shaved a half hour off game times. the results are there. attendance is way up and ratings are way up. >> it's sad for us red sox fans that the yankees are going to blow past that third wildcard spot. talk about fun, rev, come on, baby. >> i wouldn't put vivek in the category of joe frazier. and joe fraser could fight and take a punch. 20 years ago when vivek was a student at harvard and i did a harvard forum with chris matthews on "hardball," i was running for president. he came to the mic and asked me why should anyone vote for me. they had senator kery running and senator edwards running. they said why should anyone vote for me when i had the least political experience. i'd been involved in the political realm as an activist at that point for 30 years. i had more experience than anybody on the debate stage in terms of what i did in the political realm. that affected laws and policies. so here we were 20 years later. i had him on "politics nation" saturday night. i showed him the tape of where he asked me the question. i said to him, you have no political experience, you didn't even vote but twice. why are you running? and you also endorsed and support a man who had no political experience either other than fighting the central park five, saying they should have been executed when they were innocent, accused of raping a woman in central park. so different rules for me. we went there into his attacks on members of congress, saying they were the new kkk, grand wizard and all other kind of absurd things. i think he's basically a guy that knows how to sell and talk, but he does not have any substance. he is attractive, but shallow. he's hoping that trump voters will come in if trump has to drop out of the race. i think he'll be a snowflake. >> he knows what he's doing. he's a smart guy. it's just so cynical. you look at what he said a year ago and what he's saying now. look at all of his attacks on donald trump in 2021 and what he's saying now. again, i always say this. we were talking earlier about the scar tissue from trumpism and the stupid form of populism. you have young, talented people like vivek just racing to the bottom, lowest common denominator, lying about things, chasing conspiracy theories when he could do some pretty incredible things on policy. >> so here is reverend al and vivek ramaswamy in 2003 and then this past weekend, 20 years later. >> let's get to the question. >> i'm vivek. i want to ask you, last week on the show we had senator kerry and the week before we had senator edwards. my question for you is, of all the democratic candidates out there, why should i vote for the one with the least political experience? >> well, you shouldn't, because i have the most political experience. [ applause ] i got involved in the political movement when i was 12 years old. and i've been involved in social policy for the last 30 years. so don't confuse people that have a job with political experience. >> so 20 years later, now my turn to ask you. of all the republican candidates out there, why should someone vote for you, the one with the least political experience? and i might add, you've never held office. you've only voted twice in the last few elections. you don't even vote regularly. >> yes. >> and you support donald trump, who never held office until he was president. are you putting a different standard on me? i won't even make the racial application there. >> hey. listen, at the age of 18, i think you persuaded me on that one that political experience is not the same as holding office. >> oh. can i put out right-wing press that shocked and converted -- well, i don't want to make credit. you're running to be the leader of the free world, so your choice of words matter. have you taken any time to reflect upon the possibility that comparing your political rivals to murderous terrorists might put their lives in danger at a time when hate crimes are on the rise? or do you just not care? >> what's toxic about that old-world view of organizations like the kkk, which have been a god awful stain on our national history, they say your skin color determine what you're allowed to say and think. i'm using an analogy to make a point. we should stop seeing each other on the basis of skin color. we have to learn a lesson in the present that we're creating more racial division in this country. >> so, rev, even just watching him in the debate, he talked about cutting off aid to ukraine, a preemptive pardon for former president trump, talked about climate change being a hoax. since then he's said some curious comments about ending aid to israel down the road. then we played that bizarre theory about taking the heat off of putin and russia to hit china so russia could be a counter weight. it's not just his style that is a little slick, but if you stop and listen to what he's saying, a lot of it even to conservatives sounds a little nuts. >> it does. when you question it, he stands by it. we talked about ukraine. he says i'm an anti-war candidate. you were the only anti-war candidate in 2004. i said how do you compare? he's saying there was no weapons of mass destruction in iraq. you're talking about ukraine, which is a totally different situation. he called congresswoman presley a grand wizard of the modern kkk at a time when we just saw three people killed in florida in a hate crime. why would you exacerbate this kind of behavior? in fact, i'm preaching the funeral. i'm doing the eulogy in jacksonville on friday of one of them, a young lady shot 11 times by this guy, two in the face. can't even open the casket. this is not a time to be using language that could exacerbate hate crimes and racial tensions and act like i'm just making a point. you're making a point about a terrorist group called the ku klux klan against a member of congress that may have a different of opinion than you. >> that new "wall street journal" poll this morning, ramaswamy is at 5%, 54 points behind donald trump in a national poll. the senate is back in session today, the house set to return next week. lawmakers have a long list of items waiting for them this morning, especially the federal budget set to expire september 30th. it needs to be renewed to avoid a full-fledge government shutdown. joining us is jake sherman. the clock is ticking. here we are after labor day with a deadline in front of us. >> yeah. the senate's been out for 40 days, willie. the house doesn't come back until next week. let's start with the basics. house and senate on two very different pages when it comes to government funding. the house has cut more than $100 billion from the deal that speaker kevin mccarthy cut with joe biden. now you're beginning to hear from house republicans like marjorie taylor greene that if they don't get an impeachment inquiry in the next two or three weeks, they will not vote to fund the government. so if you're playing the odds, you have to put it well above 50% that the government is going to shut down sometime between now and the end of the year. kevin mccarthy wants to extend government funding until november. but this is not the only issue. faa, farm bill, aid to ukraine, disaster relief, all of them are tied together. the farm bill and the faa both expire september 30th. so we're in what can only be described as an incredibly messy legislative push to the end of this month. >> with the senate in session, a lot of questions about senate minority leader mitch mcconnell and his health after yet another moment where he froze up. it's raising real questions about whether he can continue in his position as leader. what's the latest you've heard from his fellow republicans as to whether or not they believe mcconnell can keep doing this job? >> the line that we keep hearing publicly from mcconnell allies is he's fine, he can continue to serve. they've spoken to him, and he sounds good. the answer that his office has given is that he's dehydrated, that the difference between being dehydrated and what question see on camera is pretty stark. we've seen two episodes where mcconnell has frozen up on camera in a pretty profound way. one more of these episodes will be quite damaging for mcconnell. he does have the support of a large majority of senate republicans. the question will be clearly something is going on with his health. he has become the longest-serving senate leader of all time. does he want to go out in a more fragile state than we're used to seeing him in? he speaks to senate republicans in a lunch tomorrow, which will be the first time he's addressed senate republicans since this most recent episode. >> let's go to the house side and the possibility of an impeachment inquiry. speaker mccarthy has been talking about this. he said most recently if we do so, there will be a formal vote in the house to move forward on it. is there going to be an impeachment inquiry? i know he's getting a lot of pressure from his right wing to do just that. >> i think so. it will be a very difficult vote for mccarthy. we have 18 house republicans who are in these biden seats who are going to have to decide whether they want to stand up to the criticism on the campaign trail next year that all they're doing is impeaching the president when there's so much else to do in the economy and a whole host of other legislative issues. i do think when push comes to shove, mccarthy is going to put an impeachment inquiry on the floor, they're going to vote for it. you don't go down that path without actually impeaching the president, in my estimation. that's added onto the other things congress has to accomplish this month. an impeachment inquiry takes a lot of oxygen in the capitol. i think that with all of these things that need to get done, it's going to become an overpowering political issue on capitol hill. >> impeachment usually helps the president being impeached. jake sherman, as always, thank you so much. a couple of follow-up items really quickly. jen palmieri texted me and said, how did you manage to go around all of baseball and not even talk about the orioles? because they're ahead of the yankees and the red sox. that's how. orioles looking great. secondly, rev, we see you now and you're fit at your fighting weight, you're muhammad ali 1960 at rome olympics. you float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. sometimes when we see you back in your buster douglas days, it's a bit of a shock. >> rotund. >> it shows that you can age with grace. i think i look a lot better now than i did then. i was watching and i heard somebody say i'm fit now and i'm still young enough to think about another race. but i said to those in the room with me, that if joe doesn't run, i'm not running. >> oh god. >> there you go. coming up on "morning joe," legal analysis on a possible punishment for the former leader of the proud boys ahead of his sentencing later today. also ahead, a look at the markets before the bell as wall street returns for a short trading week. andrew ross sorkin joins us with more on that and insight on what is behind china's slowing economy. insight on what is behind china's slowing economy. in the mood for breakfast? 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(alternate voice) poligrip power hold + seal gives our strongest hold and 5x food seal. if your mouth could talk, it would ask for... poligrip. welcome back. trump white house economic advisor peter navarro will go on trial this week for refusing to cooperate with the house committee investigaing the january 6th attack. after more than a year of legal back and forth, jury selection is set to begin today in d.c. federal court, where navarro is charged with two counts of contempt of congress. the ex-white house aide was subpoenaed by house lawmakers early last year, but refused to appear before the bipartisan panel, claiming that donald trump told him not to cooperate. navarro also says he is protected by executive privilege. he faces up to a year in jail if co convicted. convicted proud boys lieutenant joseph biggs hoping donald trump is elected in 2024 because he's certain the former president will pardon him, he says. last week biggs was sentenced to 17 years in prison for his role in the january 6th riots. prosecutors originally sought 33 years. trump has not said whether he will consider pardons for proud boys specifically. later today proud boys leader enrique tarrio will learn his fate. prosecutors seeking a 33-year sentence for him. he is described as someone who possessed massive popular influence over the members of his group, adding, because of this and his motives, a significant sentence is necessary. let's bring in legal analyst danny se value los. he was crying in court apologizing saying i know i did something bad that day, i was influenced by donald trump. he's sentenced. he calls into infowars and says i know donald trump is going to pardon me and has my back. what do you expect to see from enrico tarrio today, the leader of the proud boys? do you think he'll get 33 years the prosecutors are seeking? >> i do not. u.s. sentencing guidelines show clearly that the united states takes terrorism very seriously. it provides for a dramatic increase in the sentencing guide license. that's what the government is using largely as its basis for asking for 33 years. one of the other commandments of sentencing is you have to sentence like defendants to like sentences. so the judge has to consider that. given the fact that the top end of sentences for january 6th right now are around 18 years for stewart rhodes, 17 years for joseph biggs. the judge will take that into account, even though applying the terrorism guidelines would effectively send this defendant to the moon. >> donald trump is trying to fundraise off what happened in georgia. talk to us a little bit about where things stand with georgia. there are so many defendants. some want speedy trials, others do not, trump included. how messy is this going to be? >> any jurisdiction where i can waive the arraignment and enter a plea of not guilty without going into court, i do it. i can't imagine why any defendant would want to physically go to court. but georgia is already becoming very complicated. you're going to have multiple trial dates and multiple sovereigns. part of this case is currently in federal court. it's been described as a request by mark meadows to take it to federal court. that's not how removal works. he removed it to federal court. it's the prosecutor fighting to drag it back down to state court. it could be part of it in federal court, part of it in state courts. this is becoming a mess. compare that with jack smith's indictment of only donald trump for election interference and you see the benefits of charging only donald trump even if you believe there were unindicted coconspirators, that will be much more streamlined because you don't have all the other defendants mucking up the procedural parts. but these defendants are already kind of pointing the finger at each other. >> let me ask you about the election interference case. let's focus on that trial date. the judge has set it for early march. how likely do you think it is that she'll stick fairly close to that other than maybe one or two continues? >> i think there's zero chance the trial is going to start in march of next year and not because of any fault of the judge or prosecutors or defendants. it's just because things happen. look at how much has happened in the georgia case. some of it i expect the prosecution and even the court would have anticipated. i think they probably anticipated some defendants would try to move to federal court, but they don't know what's going to happen, and that could add significant time to the case. in the jack smith d.c. case, you have a stronger reason to expect that trial will happen when it happens, plus the fact that federal courts are usually faster, more efficient. the georgia state case, any prediction on when a trial date will go forward, even setting a trial date, is just an expression of hope and desire. it is not set in concrete. you see all the defendants there. imagine every one of them could file a motion that has the potential to slow this case down. a motion for severance for example, that's something the court has to consider. that's 19 codefendants. even on the date this trial ostensibly starts, consider that in fulton county right now there is another rico case going on that has been in eight months of jury selection. that's not the case in chief. that's not the prosecution case, defendant case, rebuttal case. that's jury selection. it just highlights the fact that in any complicated case in state court, things happen. >> i'm talking about the jack smith election interference case. you don't think that will go in march. when do you think that will go? >> like i said, federal court moves a lot faster. that date is a hopeful date in my mind. i believe the court wants it to go forward at that date. but i think the fulton county case may not go to trial until 2025. i know that sounds crazy, but it's a possibility. federal court does move a lot faster. it's a streamlined case. i'm just ballparking here using a chaos analysis. maybe it happens in the fall, which is dramatically close to something else. >> it really is. >> thank you so much for being on this morning. the biggest real estate developer in china is facing serious financial troubles, according to the "new york times." the company is reeling. quote, its collapse reflects the speed and severity of the country's real estate meltdown, which threatens to derail the broader economy. just last month, another major chinese home builder filed for bankruptcy protection in the u.s. court. >> let's bring in andrew ross sorkin. we've been following this, following china's economic woes over the past six to nine months. this is a domino that looks like it's about to fall. if so, how significant will that impact china's economy? >> it's a significant domino, because it really suggests that underneath the problems in the economy that they're much bigger than people expected. when you think about the real estate issues we all saw happening in china for many years, you talk about these empty buildings and people say where are the people, how does this make sense? it doesn't make sense. in truth, it shows how deep the problems are in this economy. there was a report out from bloomberg today. for so long we talked about the time when china's economy was going to outstrip the u.s., become bigger than the u.s. this new report this morning says maybe that's not the case. there are larger sort of political implications that i think we need to think about, which is to the extent that president xi is going to try to prop up the chinese economy over the next year or two or three as a function of these types of problems, one thing they might want to do, for example, would be to prop up their currency. how do you do that? one of the ways you might do that is to sell treasuries, u.s. treasuries. well, that would have an impact here. it could have a big impact on emerging economies around the world given that china is such a big buyer. the last piece is, to the extent you believe that president xi wants to project strength inside of china, one way to do that when the economy is not working is to project strength outside of china. what does that mean when it comes to the political implications? we talk about taiwan and other things. so i think this one little piece in the real estate thing might look like a little piece, but when you talk about a domino, it might be a really big one. >> the "wall street journal" talks about how it looks like we may actually stick the soft landing. despite the growing optimism, there are still people talking about the possibility of recession. the markets are shaky. why? >> goldman sachs this morning downgrading or changing its expectations around a recession. it had put it at 20%, which means an 80% chance there wouldn't be. now it's only a 15% chance. you're starting to get this idea in the markets that perhaps a recession isn't in the offing. i know you go back even six months ago and that's all people were talking about. things look a lot better. part of that is the supply chain. part of it might be bidenomics and so many other issues. sometimes when you see these reports, they're almost contra indicators. i think when you look at the employment picture and the idea the fed doesn't seem to want to raise interest rates right now, maybe things are on the better side. >> let's talk about spotify. they made a huge bet on the obamas, on the kardashians. >> harry and megan. >> we're hearing reports now that it's all a bust, that the bet didn't pay off. in fact, podcasts generally just not making money. these three huge names, about as big as you could ever dream of getting, their podcasts ended up not being profitable. what's the future of podcasts? >> i think podcasts were the hot thing. everybody thought they were to the moon, if you will, and back. and as you mentioned, those three big names, spotify also bought several production companies. those programs are more talk show like, if you will. they spent almost a billion dollars over time on this podcast bet, if you will. the truth is that there's just not enough advertising and enough listenership to support it. the big issue view was if you could get these guys in the door, it was going to bring new subscribers. it's proven actually that it really doesn't. joe rogan is probably an exception to that. there is this question mark about whether podcasts really can ever make that kind of money. they're also quite expensive. a lot of the sort of very high production limited series ten-episode podcasts were super expensive. the only model was to make those almost a cost and hope you could turn them into a movie and sell them to netflix. netflix isn't buying anything either. you can see the conundrum. >> it's the new television. >> i think we should do four hours a day. andrew ross sorkin, thank you. a new campaign is trying to find beatles' legend paul mccartney's lost bass guitar. you heard this guitar on hits like "she loves you." it was mccartney's instrument of choice during the beatles' rise in the '60s before it was lost in 1969. the hunt began after mccartney urged the instrument's manufacturers to track down his beloved guitar. they have been joined by a pair of journalists who are now asking for the public's help, adding that even the smallest pieces of information can often lead to the biggest breakthroughs. >> the bass was used from '62 to '66 or '67 almost exclusively. it's probably the most iconic instrument in rock history. >> i wonder if someone took it. >> of course they did. coming up, we remember the life and diplomatic career of former new mexico governor bill richardson and his tireless work in securing the release of detained americans overseas. what those who knew him best say about his legacy that he leaves behind. and there is some diplomatic news to report just crossing now. president biden is nominating jacob lew as u.s. ambassador to israel. lew served as treasury secretary, chief of staff and omb director during president obama's time in office. his nomination comes as the israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu's government aims to push through its highly controversial judicial overhaul. so more news in just a moment. . so more news in just a moment. rsv is in for a surprise. meet arexvy. 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i was noncommittal. look, bill richardson was a lot of fun. i was hesitant to write this, because when you talk about fun and politicians who love the game and all that stuff, you immediately invite backlash. in some ways it's appropriate to a moment in politics that we're in today that is not a game. the stakes are ridiculously high. it's not fun. it shouldn't be fun. bill richardson is a throwback to someone who genuinely loved politics. i've written about him a lot over the years. >> when you talk about people who love politics and campaigning, which i've always found you love people if you love campaigning. i remember when i used to knock on doors and people said, oh my god, that must be horrible knocking on 10,000 doors. i go, no, sometimes they invite you in, you'd get to sit and talk to them. it's just like an archaeological dig. it was fascinating. i absolutely loved it. what's wrong with loving the game as far as politicking? it means you love people. proof for richardson was he held the guinness world record that you always underline in your stories about him. >> in 2002 he set the guinness book of world records by shaking the most hands, over 13,000 hands shaken in an eight-hour period. yeah, he had the guinness people there. he was very proud of it. he said, make sure you put that in there. i said, why is that so important to you? because it shows that i like politics. there are so many politicians today who will fall all over themselves to tell you they're not politicians. some of the most unctuous, slickest people i've ever met in politics are the ones who spend the most energy telling you, oh, i'm not a politician. richardson to that always said, you know, i'm a professional politician. it's better than being an amateur, right? which i thought was a great line. i will miss this man a great deal. i loved covering him. i kept in touch with him over the years, an he made a huge impact. >> he loved politics and stayed in the game even after he no longer held office and also embarked on a last act as sort of a shadow diplomat. >> after he left the governorship of new mexico, which i guess would have been about 10 or 15 yeas ago, he became sort of a freelance diplomat. he would go all over the world trying to get hostages released in very dicey situations, whether it was myanmar or cuba or iran. there were official statements that came out over the weekend about his passing. what i was struck by was britney griner put out a statement expressing great admiration and appreciation for him. a "washington post" journalist called him the foremost global hostage negotiator. it was weird, because he wasn't attached officially to any government, but no one else did what he did. there were a lot of former governors and former members of congress, former cabinet people. richardson checked all those boxes, but no one did what he did in the last 15 years of his life. it really carved out a very distinct niche for him. >> britney griner, said we will be forever grateful for his efforts to bring me home. he had this great career as a diplomat mark leibovich, thank you so much. first lady jill biden has tested positive for covid-19 after she experienced mild symptoms over the weekend, according to a statement released by the white house last night. dr. biden will remain at the family home in rehoboth beach, delaware, while she recovers. she was last seen in public with president biden on friday. the white house says the president tested negative for covid and will continue to test regularly. obviously we're looking at saturday right there. she tested positive on monday. the president of the united states negative for the moment. we hope that continues. we hope she recovers well. he's got a big foreign trip ahead of him this week. >> that is looming as the issue here. you saw them in close quarters in the helicopter on the trip to florida to survey the damage caused by the hurricane. of course, they spent the weekend together in delaware. the president is returning to the white house. the g 20 is later this week in new delhi india, the president scheduled to leave thursday with an important stop in vietnam after that. he was negative last night, but he's going to keep testing. if he were to test positive in the next few days, it would mean he likely would not be able to go on that trip, which would be a bit of a diplomatic setback. this is one the white house has been eyeing for a very long time. >> we'll follow that for sure. up next on "morning joe" -- we're going to have more on the life and legacy of jimmy buffett, who passed away at the age of 76 after his battle with cancer. we're back in two minutes. cancer we're back in two minutes. age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv in the mood for breakfast? 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[ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ made it! mom! leave running behind, behind. the new turbocharged volkswagen atlas. does life beautifully. i may be known for my legendary football career, but truth is, i love a bunch of sports. the only trouble is knowing where to find them. that's why i got xfinity. so, i can easily find and watch whatever sport i'm into all in one place without missing a thing. even if it's football, australian football, or football football. in a word—it's fitz-credible. i got to trademark that one. this season, eligible xfinity rewards members can get up to $100 off nfl sunday ticket from youtube. sign up for xfinity rewards now. ♪♪ ♪ living off sponge cake ♪ >> this morning as fans around the world honor jimmy buffett, his family revealing more about his private cancer battle. ♪♪ the beloved singer known for embracing a care-free lifestyle passed away at the age of 76, after a four-year fight with a rare form of skin cancer, merkel. his sister lori telling "people" the two shared a cancer battle after she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer around the same time. lori saying we shared a club that nobody wants to join. i am thunder struck that jimmy didn't make it. laurie posting on instagram that soon before her brother's death, i told him i've known him longer than anyone on the planet, he smiled with his twinkling blue eyes and squeezed my hand. also telling "people" buffett had to cancel shows because of his illness but wanted to keep performing and that love of music carrying him to the end. his final performance, a surprise for fans, two months ago. >> i was in awe. >> reporter: the moment capping off a 50-year music legacy and empire. ♪ wasting away again in margaritaville ♪ >> for his devoted fans, the margaritaville philosophy was a state of mind. buffett turned that tropical island lifestyle into a billion dollar brand. >> it pays off if you just keep going ahead. it is just steady journeyman work when it comes down to it. >> reporter: he rose to success by connecting with the audience, getting his start in new orleans and never taking himself or his performances too seriously. >> i made $150 a week and half price on drinks. and the first week i owed them money. >> reporter: buffett, ultimately finding success after settling in key west. he shared his talents with us here at "today" more than a dozen times, forming a special connection with al. >> still thinking about jimmy buffett and still thinking about all those he transported to magical places. >> reporter: magic that will live on for years to come in his song and spirit. ♪ time will tell ♪ >> nbc's emilie ikeda with that report. and joining us now, sirius xm radio host mark goodman, and music journalist holly gleason, she's written for "rolling stone" magazine and is a senior contributing editor with pole star. she wrote an essay reflecting on buffett's death entitled "beyond the coral reefer," jimmy buffett finds that one particular harbor. for us, it was shocking. he was a good friend and you often were in contact with him. he visited us last october. and gave joe a guitar. and his sunglasses are still in the elevator shaft of our building. >> somewhere -- >> he dropped his glasses. >> somewhere in there. you know, mark, that's a funny thing. you look at that nbc package, and they're talking about a care-free lifestyle. jimmy, when he came in to visit us, in florida, flip-flops, shorts. >> right? >> t-shirt. >> he is who he is and he was so laid back and so taken by it all, but the funny thing is what we find out is what we really all sort of should have known this guy worked around the clock. he created a billion dollar empire and even hear him talking about it, he's humble about it, he says steady as they go. even a journeyman can -- no, that guy was next level songwriter, if you ask bob dylan and next level businessman if you ask warren buffett. >> right. well, he -- the guy did something, i think, pretty amazing while being absolutely against selling out, he has managed to walk a line. he created a genre, he created an entire lifestyle, branded it and sold it. and still walked away with credibility. how did he do that? >> well, let's talk about the music side of it. you mentioned kenny chesney and zach brown, they're saying, we does what he does, maybe a little more country to what they do. what did he mean to music? it is easy to say "cheeseburger in paradise," but there is a lot more there. >> it took us to realize how much was in fact there. and i was in rock radio in the mid-'70s when "cheeseburger" came out, oh, that's that guy over there, he's an a.m. guy. over the years, we have developed this incredible respect for him. when he passed, the first thing i thought was of a song about the death of an unpopular poet. which was on his last studio album. and he talks about how that works, how as a poet he's able to, you know, walk that line, be literate and yet pay the band, you know. >> yeah. you know, holly, in a conversation i had with him in the past years, he talked about being on the back nine of life. he said, we're on the back nine of life, we got to make every swing count and you think about the fact he just kept going to the end, paul mccartney had such moving words, talking about recording with him recently as he just kept writing songs. and, like, people like paul mccartney, you know, bob dylan saying he was his favorite songwriter, this is a guy who was -- loved talking about being laid back, but rock gods loved him. >> everybody loved him. i mean, his gift was he not only made life poetry, but he made everybody laugh. you couldn't not feel joy and so when he would slide in, he went to paris, they don't dance like carmen no more, those songs that evoke something that we have lost, but we don't forget, that's -- i think that's what dylan especially responded to. >> yeah. he comes from -- he and i come from what we call it the redneck riviera. and he hung out with people like kenny stabler and they were a legend florida bama and that area. he was supposedly a party guy, he won the super bowl, jimmy buffett the same thing. they made it look easy but there was nothing easy about it, was there? >> no, he was very eye on the prize. and i think that era of key west that he came out of, they partied hard, but they worked hard and every day they were going to write a better bit of work, whether it was a novel they were working on or article, or in the tarpon movie, that was groundbreaking in the '70s when they made it, it is legendary now, and there was a documentary screen over the weekend that i believe he died 12 hours before they screened it about the making of that movie and who those men were. >> we were talking about the tribute that paul mccartney paid to him, really lavishing praise as a man, but also professionally and saying this guy was a great songwriter and didn't realize they just finished a single together, paul mccartney and jimmy buffett titled "my gummy just kicked in." >> as good as that is, it gets better. why? it was inspired by paul mccartney's wife. they were together at an event, about 20 people, at a dinner table, and nancy kind of stumbled when she was going to sit down and jimmy said, oh, are you okay, and she said, yeah, it's okay, my gummy just kicked in. >> that's a great song. >> and there's a song. >> thank you, nancy, for the inspiration. >> i love it. sirius xm radio host mark goodman and senior contributing editor holly gleason, thank you very much for joining us this morning. >> another song that they wrote called "bubbles up." and his broadway musical. >> oh, my god, you got on the stage and played. >> very nice. >> so fun. >> very gracious. a lot of fun. thank you, guys, so much for being with us today. that does it for us. and cabrera picks up the coverage right now. sentencing day. in just hours the former national leader of the proud boys will learn his punishment for seditious conspiracy connected to the attack on the capitol. how long could enrique tarrio actually spend behind bars. also ahead, just one day left for donald trump's final seven co-defendants in georgia to either enter a plea or got ready to go before a judge tomorrow.

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