faces jim jordan's deadline to submit documents about her case to congress. as we reported, she is now the target of an investigation by the republican-led house judiciary committee. on friday, the dea will finally release the special grand jury report. well georgia is just one of four pending criminal trials for trump, this campaign for president carries on. that has many people on both sides of the aisle, wondering if the 14th amendment can, and should be used to bar trump from running. here's what former impeachment manager adam schiff said about that earlier today. >> the section three of them and it is pretty clear. if you engage in acts of insurrection or rebellion against the government, or you give aid and comfort to those who do, you are disqualified from running. it does not require that you be convicted of insurrection, it just requires that you have engaged in these acts. it's a disqualification from holding office again. it fits donald trump to 80. >> joining me now, msnbc contributor and former watergate prosecutor, jill wine-banks. she's a co-host of the hashtag histories and laws podcast, and offer of the watergate girl. also with me, nbc news justice reporter ryan reilly, and also, former republican congressman charlie dent of pennsylvania. he's executive director of the aspen institute of congressional program. thank you all for joining me. jill, i want to start with you. secretary of state have been some of the first to discuss the 14th amendment case against trump. but, michigan's top election officials it's not really in their hands. take a listen. >> the secretary of state in various states may make international statements, either for qualification or against qualification, or within the balance of our authority. the ultimate decider in this case is going to be the courts, and really, the ultimate court to resolve this will be the united states supreme court. in that regard, we hope that decision, however it makes its way to the court, come sooner rather than later. >> talk us through the legal pathways for barr and trump from the ballad. >> julián, it seems like all of the federal people have waited on it, as well as laurence tribe, but also judge luttig and two professors. they've all said the 14th amendment, section three, means without any kind of convict mint or any indictment, that a person can be barred from running. the first step is the secretary of state, who says we can go on the ballot, who qualifies. so, they get to say, the first. but, that will be appealed by anybody who is barred from being on the ballad. so, will work its way up the court system, and ultimately, johnson benson is correct, it'll make you to the supreme court you will have the final say on whether or not. but, it does seem like, 14th amendment is very clear. it was intended to keep any of the members from the confederacy from holding office if they held office, while they were engaged in the insurrection against the united states. so, i think it's pretty clear that it does bar them, and i'm optimistic on the other hand. you can imagine what could happen if if you are on the other foot, there is going to be accusations without foundation of wrongdoing and democrats. the difference is, there is clear evidence here. that makes a difference to me. >> ryan, the fulton county special grand jury wrapped up nine months ago now. so, why are we just getting the reports now. when we get on friday, what are you going to be looking for? >> i think we have to see a bigger picture of what exactly they're looking at, potentially some of the evidence they looked that, revealed there. but, we have a pretty good narrative speaking indictment already about what we're talking about here. so it, could be wildes interesting, to see how the grandeur he went about that. a lot of this is in the public record, whether be in the danya six committee report, or whether it be in some of the indictment of come out thus far. so, a lot of this did happen in public aside from january 6th, a lot of this was documented by the people who are doing it themselves. so, i think that while there should be some interesting components to it, i don't know if that's necessarily point to shatter the narrative about what we already know, because the facts we already know have been enough for people to go forward with these complaints. so, i think the biggest thing this week will be the trial dates, and when they're set for. that could really have some big implications going forward, especially if those cases go forward without trump, some of his codefendants. that gives trump's team a little bit of a preview what they could expect when his case went against trial. but, really kicking the can down the road is the overall strategy for the trump team here seeking to delay it much as possible in the federal case they were seeking. 2026 as their trial date. the ultimately didn't get it, and he will go to trial next federal case next year, barring any unfortunate circumstances. i think they're going to be able to the ladies as much as possible, even though some of the quarterfinals are trying to step on the gas and get this to trial as quickly as they can. >> charlie, let's go for fulton county two year old stomping grounds of washington, d.c., house republicans are back to targeting trump prosecutors with their letter to d.a. willis. in fact, ways and means chair jason smith now says the gop cannot allow a budget crisis to jeopardize their work. take a listen to what he had to say. >> if funding is, if there's a government shutdown, that will stop all these investigation, that's absolutely the wrong thing. the american people deserve a government that is working for them, and we have to continue these investigations. >> how might this shape negotiations on capitol hill? >> look, every year, at this time, around september 30th, the governor needs a resolution by september 30th, sometime in the middle of september. if congress fails, to pass the resolution, then the government shuts down. really the congress then ceases to operates, other than trying to get the government reopened. so, it'll be very difficult for congress to conduct any business, other than, there's a way to reopen the government. whether it's on joe biden or hunter biden or anything else, that's going to have to wait, until then reopen it. so, hopefully won't be a long shutdown, but if there is one, i suspect they're going to be out of business in these investigations. >> jill, speaking of revenge, trump has barely tone down his threats on social media. he recently demanded an eye for an eye on a video address to republicans. what would actually count as trump violating his bond in fulton county? i think a lot of people want to know, what does he have to do to get into trouble here? >> it's not just fulton county. remember judge chutkan also warned him about threatening witnesses or codefendants. i'm afraid that he is skirting the line. obviously, any judge is going to be very careful before stopping a candidate for president from commenting on evidence. but, it's when he gets to the threatening part, when he starts threatening his opponent, but that does not count as a trial. it's only when he threatens a witness or a codefendant that he will be violating it. then, the question is, what can a judge do? really, there's very little, except for incarcerating him, and judges are not going to want to do that. a fine is not going to work. if it hit he, wouldn't have a second defamation case against carroll, by cow rather, because after the first sentence, and the fine he get, you thought he wouldn't have repeated the same defamation. but, he did. so, money, which he is raising from people who are making small donations, it's not his money that's paying the fine. it's their money. so, it's not going to stop him, it's going to take something more than a fighting to stop him from saying horrible things. >> charlie, presidential candidate nikki haley today claims that trump is going to lose if he is convicted. take a listen. >> the american people are not going to vote for a convicted criminal. the american people are going to vote for someone who can win the general election. i have faith in the american people. they know they need to do. >> this seems to be the central gamble in the republican race. do you think trump's rivals are betting the right way? >> i think many of his rivals have made a fundamental miscalculation committed a act of political missed practice by not going after trump, directly, when he was indicted for the first time in new york. we can have a great debate, whether that is going to be convicted any of these cases, but i think it's fair to say as chris christie has said, this represents a terrible face of bad judgment, his judgment has been horrendous, his misconduct is quite clear. even if it may not be criminal, paying the hush money payment to a point star, recklessly handling classified material, election interference in georgia, and of course, all the issues surrounding january 6th. so, i think the right to point out that trump is too great a risk to be the republican nominee. i do not know that's going to set him with a lot of republican's when they see that this guy is a problem within the swing voters. i can't think of one independent voters who's gonna say, these indictments are terrific, i think a vote for that guy. i don't think it's the way it's going to work. yes, the hardest element of the trump phase might think this is a terrific thing. they're fighting the system. but, i think a lot of swing voters around the country are going to be repulsed by a man that's been indicted for times and possibly convicted. i think he's probably right, at some point, this whole dynamic might change. it's not changing in the primary, but it will certainly change in general election. >> well, let's hear the signals the beginning of more aggressiveness against trump from his rivals. jill, thank you. ryan and ben, i know you're sticking around. still to come, the former leader of the proud boys is about to face a judge for sentencing. wait until you hear how long prosecutors want to put him away for for his role in january 6th. plus, president biden has strayed from saying donald trump's name. that's about the change, according to new reporting. later, the breaking news in nevada, tens of thousands of stranded in the desert after tarantula rains cut off roads. one person has died. we'll get an update from the scene. the first of richard louis, with the other big stories we're tracking this hour, on msnbc. >> thank you julián, a convicted murder whiskey from pennsylvania state prison was spotted near surveillance video, that yellow was convicted of first degree murder and tends to live. he was in a mile and a half away from the philadelphia area prison. he is considered extremely dangerous, police urge those with information to call 9-1-1. a big shake-up on ukraine's leadership, ukraine's president says he will replace his defense minister. alexei ragnick cough was under scrutiny for miss handling military contracts. this is the first major change to leadership since russia's invasion, almost one and a half years ago. and, jimmy buffett's cause of death, now revealed, the margaritaville singer-songwriter died after a four-year battle with skin cancer. obituary on his website says he continues to perform, well receiving treatment. jimmy buffett was 76. while american voices for you more after this break. but to advance how the game is played. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. 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what are you looking for in this hearing? >> we're not expecting to get that for 33 years, just because it's how the judges have decided other cases. of, course the really interesting thing about enrique tarrio cases, he's wasn't actually at the capitol on january six, he was arrested in connection with a previous event. there is these two events after the 2020 election in d.c., including one in which he was burning of the flag, he actually ended up being arrested for just before january six when he came back into town. after he came back on that flight, he was at a baltimore hotel on january six, prosecutors say because of the role he played in organizing all of this and knowing what was going to happen he even filled the venue called premonition outside of the capitol in a spooky, motifs and the masked up. they think he was a major part of, this even though he actually wasn't on the battleground so the speak on january six itself. he was a key leader and. this, but just given the sound as a judge kelly has handed down thus far, target imagined him approaching that. i'm very curious to figure out whether or not he ends of going above or beyond at 18 years. 18 years is the current record. there is a tie for that. one proud boys and one member of the oath keepers have both received 18 years in federal prison. federal prison time is not the same a state time. you really only, have to serve 85. there's only so much good timing can get. you get credit for the time you already served, but it's real time, and so 18 years isn't much much you achieving of even if you are an obedient emit in federal prison. >> let's go back to dominic pezzola for a second. of all of the fans in the proud boys trial, he was the only one not convicted of seditious conspiracy. what do you make of that? >> what was interesting because he was not as involved in some of the pre-planning as the other four defendants were convicted. so, you can sort of follow the jury's logic there that he was a route was brought in the last minute but wasn't in some of those cute discussions. it's always interesting when you see the story cases, because there's been such this talk about d.c. juries cannot decide these cases fairly. then, you see they make some really educated and well thought out decisions like this, deciding that, government ties proof beyond the reasonable doubt that these individuals committed acts of conspiracy. really, that supports the prosecution's case on appeal, because it really shows that jurors were careful about what they were, and not just buying that prosecutors were arguing. individualized decisions for individual defendants based upon evidence. it really boost the idea that jurors are deciding these cases fairly overall, and helps the government on appeal. >> in the minute that we have left, you covered this case and these key players for a long time, have you noticed any change in their allegiance to trump? as we know many of the capital said they were sent by trump. >> there definitely is a switch in the categories in people who have realized they were fooled that these conspiracy theories that they believed are not true. but, it's really tough for others to accept that, and the sort of line with it dominic pezzola if, you heard what he told the judge, you heard what his family members spoke to, you would not think he's fully in the boat. he was talking about getting out of politics and gets what a lot of the defendants speak to, but then he goes and does that sort of move after his wife refers to him as a idiot, he goes and says trump won as he was at the door. that's going to help him obviously with some of the january six committee and two trump heroes and folk there. at the end of the day, he's going to be doing a lot of time behind bars, and it's not going to be seeing the family he spoke so much about for a number of years. >> and d.c.'s ryan riley, thank you for sticking around. just a reminder, ryan's new book, sedition hunters, we'll be back on october 17th. right after the break, a strategy shift for the biden campaign. when you think about it, the president has treated trump like the voldemort of american politics. he who must not be named. but, we have new reporting, suggesting that that is going to change. later, insult to injury, this hurricane season. a real slap in the face to store mourners -- they get insurance for a reason. so, why more and more companies refusing to cover their claims? 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>> let me say that no labels is actually in the business right there of trying to secure ballot access for a potential candidate. there is no candidate right now. they're talking about a ticket, a republican and democrat, i'm not sure which one will be top of the ticket. but, that's what they're talking about, because they've identified something in the political marketplace that's very real. most americans, probably two thirds of americans do not want joe biden and donald trump to be running for office. they want something new, something fresh, and if there is ever a time for independent move like the one no labels is talking about, it is right now. so, i think that's really the issue. the no labels project will probably go away if donald trump is not the republican dominated. but, he is, so i suspect they will go forward and it's important that we have some competition in place to do something to shake up a few parties, that have been really bending for the most extreme elements of their party for much of the past few years. >> crystal, in 2020 65% of biden votes came putin voters between ages of 18 and 24. former democratic chair weighed in today on getting young voters to vote democrat this time around. take a listen to what she said. >> the biggest challenge we face is democrats, i say we because i am a democrat, except, young voters, young black and latino voters, they're not ready to come back to the party. they are not even looking at the so-called messaging that's being sent to them about the economy, about climate change, about student debt through these. they are worried about their future. right, now they're looking for a leader who represents their values and their visions. >> do you worry that many disillusioned young voters will either vote third-party or not at all in the upcoming election? . what do democrats need to do to make sure that neither one of those things happen? >> i'm not necessarily worried about voters, younger voters not turning out. i'm more concerned about the messaging that this administration is sending to young voters. when you talk about student loan repayments that are coming back, that's something that young voters are thinking about. abortion is another big issue that has showed younger voters between 18 and 45 care about that issue, a longer climate change, we saw with the first gop primary debate that candidates were asked about climate change, many of them on the stage decided they did not think it's real. that is not something, and we heard the boos in the audience, that is something that this administration, the democratic party has to continue drilling in and messaging on if they want to see young voters turnout. i don't think they will stay home, i think they're waiting and deciding who actually cares about what they care about, who cares about their economic situation, and who has the best answer moving into 2024 about what we can do to turn out to more voters. >> how democrats approach that could be fundamental to their fortunes in 2024. as you say. crystal, you also mentioned earlier about how president biden has avoided talking about trump until now. what do you think the strategy is there and what do you make of this news that there will be a shift in the coming weeks? >> i am glad that they are planning to make the shift after this holiday weekend. but, i think up until now, trump has a number of legal battles that he's battling. so, if the president got into the business of commenting after every single thing, every single indictment that came about, there was never be into the new stories. there is so many things are at the developing and unfolding. there are many defendants in the fulton county case. so, i think it has been the right strategy of the team to not say anything and mention trump. what we already know is that he loves leading attention, and so the more times of his name is mentioned, the more he can use those sounds to attack. i think as we move out of the holiday season into the holiday weekend, it is important for americans to understand what joe biden has done over the past two and a half years, and what he will do moving into 2024, and to make this contrast between a former president trump and all of the things that come with him, all the challenges all the legal woes, and even if he has the opportunity, committing the march case b for us, we don't know the outcome of the case will be, particularly around what happened on january 6th. so, those are things we have to think about. >> charlie, one more question before we leave. in light of labor day, president biden published calling on congress to pass legislation that would make it easier for workers to organize and join a union with the senate reconvening on tuesday. do you expect to see any action on this? >> in congress, no, but the national relation boy as far as i can tell is trying to make it easier to form a union without a secret ballot vote. i do think this is very unpopular. if there is going to be a union to take an effort in this company and if the workers and the company want to organize, there must be a secret ballot vote. in the from, what i can tell, they're trying to maneuver and whether they can avoid those types of secret ballot elections. do not expect congress to pass something on like the old hard check bill that really never made it through congress. democrats had full control of the congress as well as presidency during the obama administration. >> kristal and congressman, thank you both. as mentioned, it's labor day tomorrow and here on msnbc, a holiday marathon documentaries. it all begins at four pm with all six episode of leguizamo americas, followed by an encore -- when truth is in truth, the really giuliani story. that begins at ten pm eastern. you will not want to miss it. next, the pending crisis for homeowners in states like florida and california. as natural disasters racked up, some insurance companies are pulling out. so, what is going on? later, if you are surprised by the racist shooting in jacksonville, you have not been paying attention according to reverend william barber. he will join us with how hateful rhetoric is fueling acts of hate. the fan experience, but to advance how the game is played. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. i'm a bear. i'm coming out of hibernation after the best nap of my life... and papa is hungry. and while you're hittin' the trail, i'm hitting your cooler. oh, cheddar! i've got hot dog buns! and your cut-rate car insurance might not pay for all this. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, like me. roar. 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>> pray. then you have to choose whether you're going to ride out the storm and try and see what you can or hope everything is okay. >> in 2022 alone, 18 disaster events cost the u.s. over 177 billion dollars. that is smelling disaster for insurance rates. states like florida have seen the average homeowners insurance premiums skyrockets by 200% since 2019. the rise in just felt in those specific states, nationwide, home insurance rates have risen more than 20% since 2015. >> the problem is accelerating. >> they've judges once in sharon's commissioner california, a state that seem to have their top five largest property insurers pulled back just within the past year. natural disasters like wildfires and higher insurance premiums. jones, now the had a climate risk initiative, berkeley school of law, says these interns rioters had been looming for years. >> when i was commissioner, we started seeing an increase in non-renewal, in the area of highest risk of wildfires. it's become a lot more acute more recently. does >> any of the spies you? >> sadly, i'm not surprised. you can see trying for some time, we're just not doing enough. >> insurance industry experts side a perfect storm of climate change and lawsuits by policyholders. just this summer alone, both farmer insurance and aaa have receded from helping home to the state of florida. with less availability, some 15% of homeowners in the sunshine shaped have surgeon to counsel their policies as the highest rate of uninsured homes in the entire country. as more states beyond those most disaster prone feel the impact of damaging weather events, jones warrants it is not just homes that are becoming harder to protect. >> its auto ensures, its business insurance, it has a very wide-ranging effect on consumers. it's causing us to march towards an uninsured future. >> if you do that for many americans is already here. >> that was nbc's marissa reporting. work american voices after the break. but first, a preview of what's ahead later tonight. >> hey there, tonight at nine eastern on ayman, this week, trump took a pastry from the authoritarian playbook, vowing to lock up political opponents if he wins in 2024. they roadmap to do it is already in the works. authoritarianism expert sarah kenzy or will be here, joined by charles coleman, and jennifer more. that is tonight, nine eastern, right here on msnbc. t. 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(vo) football season is here. get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon. >> this week in florida, president biden addressed the deadly shooting in jacksonville, that claimed three lives. he called it a terrorist act driven by racial hatred. and said it must be announced. the fbi of course investigating the attack as a hate crime. as we reported a white gunman opened fire at $1 general store. targeting people of color before taking his own life. he left behind a disgusting manifesto that made it abundantly clear he hated black people. the attack was horrific and despicable. but it was far from a surprise if you asked my next guest. -- reverend william barber writes this of the jacksonville shooting, quote, if this event surprised you, you're not paying attention, we have hateful rhetoric coming out of the mouths politicians at the highest levels in florida every day, from the governor, former president, it's hate against black history, hey -- hate against immigrants. reverend barber is with us now. he's president of the powers breach, and co-chair of the poor people campaign. reverend, thank you for joining us. you argue that this type of hate that we saw in jacksonville doesn't happen in a vacuum. let's talk about how hateful words from so-called leaders actually fuel this kind of violence? >> thank you so much. we never can look at this as an anomaly, or just one person, one of the best things that the sheriff said was that this person knew what they were doing. this is a long history. if you look at the days post slavery when people want to have violent actions they began with alec -- 1898 there was a riot in wilmington. it started by -- going over the seat spewing hateful rhetoric and what would happen if black leaders stayed in office. if you look at 1914, 1915, woodrow wilson played birth of a nation, a movie that honor the klan, denounced the reconstructionist. he said it was lightning and a bomb. in a few years you had -- black people run at a town, killed, and murdered, you can trace it down to the southern strategy where we need to use language that creates positive polarization. it make it out of hand, will deny when it does. this is what we need to do. over and over again we've got the rhetoric. look at ronald reagan's rhetoric, when he started his campaign in mississippi, philadelphia, talking about black bucks with how stakes stealing from the rest of us. go bowdenndall across the country, legislative, government spewing hate. that i would say the power of life and death is in the tang. it's not so much who killed these three people but what. dr. king when he buried for little girls that were killed september of 1963, he said every politician that spoke in against violence and racism are a part of what helped to create, and it's the same today. >> and florida we've seen a whitewashing of our shared history and the silencing of the lgbtq+ community. how did these attacks on black history and where i didn't create a dangerous atmosphere in florida and america? >> in two ways at least. one of the reasons like frank reed and others are coming together this coming thursday to announce a call for repentance and confession, and prayer. they're gonna have a massive rally on the 16th, 17th -- cease and desist, resign. and then calling for people to mobilize as they walk towards -- the attack on the trans people, the black people, black history. what it is first and foremost as a distraction from the real issues. desantis and others want them talking about them. because you don't want to talk about how he's a failed governor when it comes to addressing the non-million poor people and low income -- 4 million people in florida who make less than minimum wage, millions of people without health care. you use this as a distraction to keep from talking about that. but what it does in addition to keeping you from focusing on the real issue is it gives light miss, atmospheric license in the ethos -- if these people are the problem and they're the other, not us, get rid of us. this gunman goes to a historically black college and university. what -- dismissing history. turning away from a. that's why we need to be very clear and focus especially now. what they don't want to talk about a 60 years after martha washington, we don't have a living wage that would live 55 million people out of poverty and low well. we still don't have health care for everybody, it would give 87 million people health care, many people don't have health care today. we have real problems that we need to be addressing. but those that don't want to address them they focus on division, distraction, the problem is they can also be quite deadly when it gets in the mind. and lastly, it's not just white folk, i want to say that on msnbc. i'm not giving anyone a pass. in florida, two of the persons who helped desantis write his policy or black. black educators -- it doesn't matter if you're black, white, if you are lying about history, lying about trans people, lying about women, it's a distraction. if you're part of it, you're part of. it doctor can get the same thing. he called out back black that were crying in 1963 as a reason for why those four girls in the top that. it's time for repentance, concession, seizing and assisting, and if you can't you need to resign, if you don't resign the people need to rise up, mobilize, -- and send people home. so, they don't have the microphone to spread this. >> in the minute or so we have left, you wrote quote, a low voter turnout results and promoters of violence being elected. people stay home and extremists come into power. how can the power of the ballot help reign in hateful rhetoric and actions? >> [inaudible] in florida. if there's three to 4% of income people were to vote, and they were to vote their gender, vote for the people who care about living wage, and the ones that don't. they could send any candidate home that could change the election. there's not a state in the south where 20% of poor -- had not voted that could not shift the election. 19% in north carolina. 70% in georgia. 12% and -- the numbers are there. 1% of michigan. we have the power to shut this down. what you can't do is dismiss it. you can't ignore it. it's time for truth and love to take back the mic and say, we won't accept this, we won't have the mic alone anymore because our silence isn't a former betrayal. it enables and empowers. we have the power to shut it down. we just got to speak. lastly, it hebrew the root for vote -- it's called call, the same word for vote is the same word and hebrew. we do use our voice. >> reverend barber, thank you so much for joining us. that's it for today. and for this weekend. i'm julián castro filling in for alicia menendez. thank you for spending your sunday with. as we share to follow the show on twitter, instagram, and tiktok at alicia on msnbc. and alicia will be back next weekend with more american voices. but after the short break it's time for insight with jen psaki. have a great night. great night i have to watch my neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. 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