menendez. breaking news as we come on the air tonight. a mass shooting in jacksonville, florida. -- tell nbc news there multiple fatalities at a jacksonville dollar general store. a short time ago, the jacksonville sheriff's office confirmed the shooter is among those dead. right now, we are awaiting a press conference from jacksonville authorities, including the mayor, as soon as that begins, will bring it to life. we have a few other details tonight, we'll hear what a witness on the scene said just moments ago. [inaudible] >> every time i hear about a mass shooting -- a try to think about -- you [inaudible] [inaudible] >> joining us now, msnbc law enforcement analyst and retired special agent -- we are waiting to hear more from officials at a press conference will he get very soon. we can confirm the shooter is dead. your top line reaction to what we are watching unfold in jacksonville. >> i think initially, alicia, the preparation reports that the shooter put on body armor at a nearby college, and then traveled to the dollar store where he shot the people, and then he barricaded the guests in the jacksonville sheriff's office for a period of time. he is now deceased, we don't know if he committed suicide or if the gsr as we call them, i used to be a florida deputy, the joso killed him. with a sniper round or something. jacksonville is a large police and sheriffs department, it's combined, like a metropolitan department. the city and the county police join together, it's a very large department and very good. apparently they had a quick response, but tragically, we still have three people dead plus the shooter. retail establishment, alicia, and with this -- seeing the guy armored up with body armor somewhere out side, we didn't make it into the store. so, some planning, some preparation, not some heat of the moment anger where he pulls a gun out of his pocket and shoot somebody in a fight. rather, he's going somewhere with a purpose. bringing equipment to do it, we don't know if it was a handgun, that's to be seen. but certainly tragic for jacksonville. at least it's over. >> i should just note, nbc news has not confirmed some of those details, including his being armored up, being outside, being barricaded inside the store. part of the reason we are waiting for this press conference, to hear what details they're able to share. it strikes me, jim, that we have been waiting for this press conference for well over an hour at this point. what does that tell you about the scale, the scope of the investigation that's underway right now? >> yeah, these things initially, they're very chaotic. when you're a commander of these things, the information is flying. flying through the ranks, through the police officers and detectives on scene, sergeants, commanders, to the sheriff, public information. in their world, at the moment, that's really a short time. so if they can get out here pretty soon, like say, if they can get out in the next hour, within this next hour, that's a pretty good service response to the public. they have to have some accurate information they can report, and they have considerations for victims and families, and notifications and secure the scene. so they have a lot of tasks going on, and it's the fog of war,. alicia it's -- as we don't know everything and as nbc works to confirm the facts on the ground, so to do that emit commanders have to do that before they can step up and give their reliable information in a public venue. >> retired atf special agent in charge, jim kavanaugh, jim, this may not be the last time we speak tonight. thanks for getting us started. we're going to keep a close eye out for developments out of jacksonville, and we'll bring you that press conference with local officials as it happens. now, to our other big story. donald trump -- alicia barrage of attacks today following the latest arrest in georgia. all in an effort to stoke fears, and raise money. on his knockoff twitter, or do we call it x these days? i don't even know. trump has been railing against fulton county d.a. fani willis. joe biden and the so-called radical left -- patriots to contribute, contribute. you would think being the first american president with his very own mugshot would be a symbol of shame. but the only signs he's seeing our dollar signs, putting his mug on all sorts of march. there are already signs trump is at odds with some of his 18 codefendants in georgia. at least five of them seeking to move the state case to federal court. some are already saying they were acting at the direction of the president. on monday, trump's former chief of staff, mark meadows, will make his argument for -- georgia's secretary of state, brad raffensperger, is expected to testify that hearing. meanwhile, defended -- kenneth chesebro are asking for a speedy trial. -- is also considering doing the same. that is according to nbc news. but we know trump doesn't like speedy trials. his lawyers are pushing for trump's federal election interference case to start in april of 2026. the government is pushing for this coming january, 2024. federal judge tanya chutkan is expected to set a date this monday. with us here to discuss, msnbc legal analyst joyce -- she is -- and co-host of the hashtag sisters in law podcast. also with us, philip bump, national columnist for the national post, and author of the aftermath, the last days of the baby boom and the future of power in america. joyce, a lot of moving parts in georgia. codefendants speaking -- wanting to move to federal court. how does that impact trump's legal strategy, when he is the king of delay, delay, delay? >> right, so i think that it may be a question here of how his strategy of delay has impacted these defendants. because something the defendants who moved for a speedy trial under georgia law understand is that they will not be tried with donald trump. georgia law requires that they get this early trial that they've asked for, looks like late october. trump will not be sitting next to them, and perhaps for these defendants, that's a real benefit that they perceive. >> philip, part of the reason i want to talk to you, a piece in the washington post writing about how americans don't view all of trump's indictments equally. talk me through that. >> yet, so there's been polling from the associated press over the course of the year that's evaluated, not the indictments themselves, but the alleged actions that donald trump undertook that led to those indictments. and one of the things that sort of is fascinating, i assumed coming into this that there would be sharp partisan divides, which there are. but that they would be pretty consistent within the partisan groups themselves. the democrats would see all of these things as bad, and -- there is a delineation, and -- americans broadly think that -- what took place in georgia, donald trump's efforts there was a legal violation. they also feel as though the incident in manhattan, the charges that made manhattan, both -- didn't -- >> it's fastening from my perspective as someone who is observing how americans are responding to this, there really is an understanding of the ways in which these things differ. and i think that's probably bad news for donald trump, who would much prefer that people aren't evaluating the actual evidence at stake in all of these places, individually. >> part of their political theory of the case has been that it becomes so many cases, people won't be able to keep track of them. they won't understand the stakes in the various cases. joyce, a lingering question of course over who, if anyone, could potentially flip on trump. i want to play some sound from trump's former lawyer, michael court, earlier today, who did flip on trump. >> i will say it again on this show, hoping that someone like judy or eastman or mark meadows is watching. donald doesn't care about you. he doesn't care about you one bit. he will use you as the scapegoat, and the system will use you as the scapegoat. in order to get somebody. they won't get them to turn, because these three could easily end up in the same situation that i ended up. and i can promise you something, it's not fun. >> your sense, joyce, of how these codefendants are weighing their options? >> so, every person who's indicted comes to a point where their attorney sits down with them and they say, look, here's the evidence against you. these defendants will be receiving discovery from fani willis in the next couple of weeks. presumably, it's going to be very strong. and so the lawyers will pose to their clients a decision about whether they want to stick it out, roll the bones, go to trial, run the risk of a conviction and significant time in jail, or whether they've decided that they've had enough and they want to cut their losses and see if the government is willing to give them some sort of a deal in exchange for cooperation. donald trump has, i think, among defendants and large organizational crimes, a unique record of having people not flip on him. it's been something of a head scratcher for career prosecutors. i can think of cases that we've done, white color cases, involving corporations and securities fraud or large drug trafficking networks, where there were a lot of senior level lieutenants. and in all of those cases, a significant number of people realized that their best interest was in flipping and cooperating, and testifying. but so far that hasn't happened in any of the cases involving trump. we see a little bit of a hint of that in mar-a-lago, where one of the i.t. employees has now flipped. we'll have to watch and see how that plays out in georgia. >> all right, thank you so much, phillip and joyce, for getting us started. as always, it's good to see you both. from georgia to arizona, where prosecutors are ramping up their criminal investigation into the fake electors plot aimed at keeping trump in power. now, rolling stone is reporting that rudy giuliani is high on that list, as the possible fake elector king pin. investigators have been asking potential witnesses about giuliani's behind the scenes conduct. sources also tell the magazine investigators are looking into trump's personal involvement. smells like a potential fifth indictment, that's according to one of trump's footsoldiers, georgia congresswoman marjorie taylor greene. >> you told us two weeks ago, or three weeks ago, and you join me here, that georgia was about to indict him. that's exactly how it played out, that's a fourth indictment. and now we're wondering if arizona is next. your thoughts? >> well, i'm sure arizona is next. >> with me now, arizona secretary of state adrian fontes. adrian, you had a front row seat. you could say you're still in a front row seat to this chaos, trying to secure the 2020 presidential election as an election official in maricopa county. i wonder, as you walk this unfold in georgia, in arizona, just how important it is for accountability, in order for people like you to secure future elections. could >> thank you, first, for having me. and our thoughts are with all the folks in jacksonville as that story unfolds. i really want to say is accountability is everything. if the thing that holds us together is the rule of law within this constitutional republic, then everyone has to be answerable to the law, regardless of their station. we are doing everything in arizona that we can, crossing t's and dotting i's, and helping -- and we're asked the attorney general in arizona to make sure that she's got all the resources and help she needs to make sure that they get a solid decision. the bottom line is this. we've known for a long time about a lot of the factors that may lead to an indictment. we have myself asked the u.s. attorney's office in the district of arizona, and we're doing everything that we can to help, and we want to make sure that they have what they need to get the job done, and to make sure that the rule of law is followed. and at the end of the day, let's be very clear. the sixth amendment has to bring here. that no one's guilty until proven. so beyond a reasonable doubt, they are all presumed innocent, and that's what the rule of law is about. so we've got to play fair, even if we are looking at a lot of evidence in another direction. >> of course, no stranger to threats during the 2020 election. earlier this month a massachusetts man pleaded guilty to sending threats to katie hobbs years ago, with a texas woman charged for leaving a voice mail threatening to kill tanya chutkan overseeing trump's case. i wonder with someone who has been through that experience, your concerns about potential violence leading up to 2024? with the violence itself, and the chilling effect that it can have on elections. >> well, the violence and threats of violence can have a chilling effect, but the bottom line is this. although we have lost a lot of elections, officials across the united states and particularly in arizona were 12 of our 15 counties have lost senior elections officials, we remain stalwart in the face of the onslaught. we have folks who are moving steadily, carefully, step by step, to make sure that we have good elections. we continue to have free and fair elections in arizona and throughout the united states of america. i am hoping that congress and state governments across the united states will heed the call to increase penalties against those who are threatened or harassed. election officials. but at the end of the day, those are the folks who run elections. and it's not just the elected and appointed officials. it's your neighbors, it's the folks who are working at the polling places, the folks who are working at those warehouses in those temporary jobs. regular americans are the ones who are suffering. the coals of fraud and these fake conspiracy theories. it's just regular americans who are hoping that we can perpetuate our democracy, whose integrity has been called into question. that's the real tragedy here. that's where some of these folks are calling our own faith and integrity in each other into question. that's got to stop. so, those of us who are still in the fight will continue to put one foot in front of the other and make american elections happen for all of us. >> that's the tragedy, as you say, it's also the stakes of what lies ahead. arizona secretary of state adrian fontes, as always, thank you. we're following that breaking news out of florida, multiple fatalities including the shooter at $1 general in jacksonville. there is a press conference set for any moment. we are going to bring it to you as a top and. plus, more on trump's latest arrest and the first gop debate. how this consequential week, setting the stakes for the next election. but first, aaron oh heard with the other big stories we're tracking this hour on msnbc. erin? >> thanks ali show. legendary game show host bob barker has died at the age of 99. the longtime host of the price is right passed away of natural causes at his home in hollywood hills. and, two people have been arrested in connection with a shooting during boston's annual caribbean carnival saturday morning. seven people were shot and transported to a hospital with non life-threatening injuries. police say the shooting was not related to the parade, and festivities did resume later in the day. and in oklahoma, a shooting at a high school football game left a 16-year-old boy dead. police say an argument between at least two men lead to gunshots friday night. at least four other people were injured. so far no arrests, but investigators are searching for a person of interest. more american voices, right after this break. after this break. and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv ♪ tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourists photographing thousands of miles of remote coral reefs. that can be analyzed by ai in real time. ♪ so researchers can identify which areas are at risk. and help life underwater flourish. ♪ meet the future. a chef. a designer. and, ooh, an engineer. all learning to save and spend their money with chase. the chef's cooking up firsts with her new debit card. hungry? 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raise your hand if we do. >> we're not schoolchildren. let's have the debate. i'm happy to take it to start. [applause] >> if former president trump is convicted in a court of law, would you still support him as your party's choice? please raise your hand if you would. [applause] >> that was ron desantis wednesday night, mocking the idea of raising his hand with an undeniable truth. climate change is very, very real. and just about 30 minutes later, changes to raising his hand to support donald trump even if he is a convicted felon by election day. in fact, six gop election hopefuls committed to backing trump as their choice for the gop. the twice impeached president, now faces 91 charges across four jurisdictions. then just a day later, trump poses for his mugshot. desantis and the other -- literally confirming who is still pulling the strings. but the debate highlights something else, political reports quote, once viewed as a near singular alternative to trump, the florida governor had been floundering for weeks, laying off staff and falling back in polls. but this came this week's debate, no longer trump versus desantis. the primaries quickly reverting to trump versus everyone else. joining me now, fernand amandi, host of the strange days podcast. -- congressman jolly, this is not how ron desantis imagined his position in the race. to be honest, your and my analysis also i'm adjutant that they would take aim at him, and in reality, it turns out they don't seem to perceive him as the vic biggest threat on that stage. >> that's exactly right, alicia. the phase where this was trump, desantis, and everybody else, that face is now over. and i would suspect that we will see some polls, not all of them, but probably some pulling in -- that shows ramaswamy passing desantis. that certainly won't be every poll, but ron desantis, debate night, he didn't hurt himself, he didn't help himself. ramaswamy had a big night as the world got to know him. we'll see how long that energy lasts. haley and pence had a good night as well. but i think that show of hands on will you support donald trump if he's convicted of a crime is everything. because there is no way, for anybody on that stage, to say, i will still support donald trump if he's a criminal convict, but somehow voter, you should vote for me instead of donald trump. and the reason that that gap will never be closed, is because they all just pledged their allegiance to the front-runner by 30 points. >> let's talk about ramaswamy. here's how he pitched himself to eye voters today. >> this is where other presidents and presidential candidates have fallen short. we have a unique combination of, yes -- someone comes in from the outside. that's how trump was -- that we had in a generation. came in from the outside as an outsider. i'm the same way. -- somebody works for you and you can't fire them. that means they don't work for you. >> talk to me, about the challenge of leaning into trumpism, and in every possible way, while trump remains the top pick for republican voters. >> well, that's exactly right. the entire premise for everybody not named donald trump running for president now is that they are basically offering the republican base trump-ism without trump. we've seen how unsuccessful that strategy is. -- 60% in the national polls, he's at an unprecedented lead in iowa, in new hampshire as well. as i've said before, i still feel the same way. his nomination is over. the only person that can take this nomination away, alicia, from donald trump, is donald trump. but the problem is that right now, his candidacy is an ex-essentially tied event with his legal problems. in order for him to continue to raise the millions of dollars he's going to need for legal defense, he's going to have to continue running. so he's not getting out of the race, and right now, what we're seeing with vivek ramaswamy, it's the ban carson. there's always a new flavor of the month that gets a little bit of media traction that may go up a few points in the polls. but even into a head to head results the day after the debate, trump leads ramaswamy 70% to 28 head to head if you are in those two -- again, it's just more of what we've seen before. even this next debate that's scheduled to take place in september, where you're going to have less candidates, wheeler's going to be more of a spotlight on these anti trump leaders, it's not going to lead to much, because this is trump's nomination. >> there's so much to take away from that debate. of course, the just incredible lies we heard about abortion access in this country. i thought that moment that we showed the audience of people raising their hands over climate change is pretty startling. right, this is a pretty straightforward question. you have only hutchinson who's willing to raise his hand and say, yes, i believe that human behavior is linked to climate change. again, i understand they've got to get through the primary, i understand that the primary is linked to the other things. you get to the general election, you're making up fundamental judgment about more rights versus-less rights. you're making a judgment about the integrity of american democracy. but there are all these other issues like climate change, where if dems were previously worried that there were folks who are going to sit out the general, republicans are really doing their best to drive up democratic turnout. >> oh, there is no doubt about that. the best organizing entity in all democratic politics is the maga republican party. as you alluded to, and what we saw in that debate. you mentioned climate change was of course ridiculous that they went raise their hands. obviously none of them -- or all of them would choose to support donald trump if still convicted. i still can't get over, alicia, the fact that ron desantis said that he would invade mexico. he literally said he would invade mexico. our bilateral partner and neighbor, south of the border. so, again, what they're offering is extremism. unfortunately, that's what the republican base of 2023 seems to want. what it's clearly what independents, certainly democrats, and i think what's left of the healthy republican and former republican segment, occupied by congressman jolly and others like him. >> you've got control of congress also up for grabs. new insights on gop effort to -- win back the senate. quote, that means strategically ignoring the former president and many of the trump-centric themes that defined the campaign of his primary -- was stolen. for the past few election cycles, leadership aligned some knit republicans have complained that trump's influence has led to the party's voters nominating lackluster candidates, and in otherwise winnable states. allowing democrats to win the majority and then expand it in 2022. we talk about trump being on the ballot, i think a lot of us agree with, ferdinand, that this is all but a done deal. what does that then mean for all of their down ballot candidates? >> yeah, i mean, kevin mccarthy is living in a fantasy land. i think somehow that the talent of the recruits they're getting for the house will some way be able to rise above the anchor of donald trump and the issues that you entertain were just discussing. the reality is, every house republican is going to be asked, should we impeach joe biden? should be expunge the impeachment of donald trump? would you still vote for him after he's a victim? all of that still applies to down ballot races, and then most importantly, as you just put your finger on, issues of reproductive rights, on climate change, on science, on health care, on jobs, on education, student loans. every republican candidate for house, senate, or wherever is going to have to -- where they stand on that. and they simply are out of step in general election races. house republicans right now or burdened by the brand that donald trump has built for them, that is been secured and affirmed by leaders like mccarthy, and others. so good for you, kevin mccarthy. you've got some good recruits. they still have a terrible platform to try to convince voters to vote for them. >> if we were just a little bit shorter, it would be perfect for a t-shirt. david jolly, ferdinand, congressman julie, thank you both so much. i want to take you live now to jacksonville florida, where we are getting our first sign that a press conference is imminent. after a mass shooting this afternoon at $1 general store. officials confirmed there are multiple fatalities, and they say the shooter is among the dead. we are going to bring you this press conference with officials, including the mayor, in a minute. stay with us. minute stay with us stay with us i want to keep it real and talk about some risks. with type 2 diabetes you have up to 4 times greater risk of stroke, heart attack, or death. even at your a1c goal, you're still at risk ...which if ignored could bring you here... ...may put you in one of those... ...or even worse. too much? that's the point. get real about your risks and do something about it. talk to your health care provider about ways to lower your risk of stroke, heart attack, or death. learn more at getrealaboutdiabetes.com i suffer with psoriatic arthritis and psoriasis. i was on a journey for a really long time to find some relief. cosentyx works for me. cosentyx helps real people get real relief from the symptoms of psoriatic arthritis or psoriasis. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to or if ibd symptoms develop or worsen. i move so much better because of cosentyx. ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx. we take you now to jacksonville, florida, where authorities are just beginning a press conference on today's mass shooting. i've been able to verify. the shooter was believed to have presided in clay county, with his parents. he was involved in 2016 domestic call in clique county, with no arrests. at 1:53 pm, the shooters -- well that time, he'd already began shooting in jacksonville. the clean county sheriff's office has been insisting -- with this investigation. received information after the shooting that the shooter had authored several manifestos, one to his parents, one to the media, one to federal agents. portions of these manifestos detailed the shooter's disgusting ideology of hate. plainly put, the shooting was racially motivated, and it -- he wanted to kill -- that's the one and only time i will use that word. i want to be very clear that there is absolutely no evidence that the shooters part of any large group. we know that he acted completely alone. if you take a look at the images on the screen, you'll be able to see what he utilized. the weapons that the shooter used today are a glock and an ar-15 style rifle. this is a dark day in jacksonville's history. and also a loss of life is tragic. but the hate that motivated that killer's shooting spree adds additional layer of heartbreak. there is no place for hate in our community. and this is not jacksonville. as a member of this jacksonville community, i am sickened by this cowardly shooters personal ideology of hate. homicide detectives are actively investigating this tragedy, and despite the fact that the shooter is dead, it will continue to be investigated until a complete understanding of what happened, and why he did it. our jacksonville community collectively cries tonight, to the victims and victims families, our thoughts and prayers are with you. now, and will remain with you. please know that in the face of this tragedy, this agency, and our city stands with you. we stand united, and resolve and our commitment to accountability. we stand united with each other. those who have personally suffered loss, and those who have been touched by this tragedy, we are with you. we stand united and resolved against all forms of hate. and at this time, i'll take any questions that i can. >> does the sheriff's office consider it's a mass shooting, and why or why not? >> yes, it's a mass shooting. whatever you want to label it, it's a shooting that should not have happened under any circumstances. i don't take names of the shooting really matter. people lost their lives today. >> -- reports that the suspect may have been seen on -- confirmed that -- >> i can't tell you what his mindset was, why he was there. but he did go there and he did put his vest and a mask on, and then went directly to duller general. >> sure, -- university catch the incident on camera? >> that's still part of our investigative process. >> how that does that -- go about healing that process? -- not jacksonville -- me [inaudible] >> you see a standing here together, that's an outlier. that doesn't represent who we are as a city, and who we are as a people. our mayors here, our political leaders from all over the city are here, and it shows where we stand and how we believe as a community. politics aside, none of that matters. what matters is who we are as a community, we stand together as a community, we live together as a community, we fight together as a community. and when someone comes into our city and does this, we're not going to stand for us and we don't accept it. so we're always in the fight against. it >> may, or your faults about this as you stood among the community? >> i'm going to take this of, sure, because you're not gonna see me behind their. i'm sorry, dan. >> you were saying your thoughts about how the community is doing? your reaction to what has hit this community? >> well, i'm heartbroken. obviously. this is a community that has suffered, again and again. so many times. this is where we end up. and there were so many people out today, obviously grieving, of such. it is something that should not and must not continue to happen in our community. it is too often the same folks, and this type of hate, you know, this type of -- you see the swastikas on the gun. we must do everything that we can. we must do everything that we can to just wait this type of hate. and, so, i can't even begin to tell you how frustrating this is for all of us. because we've seen it too much. we've seen it too much. and, this, as you know, is the anniversary of when we had the shooting at the landing. and i believe that was also indicated in the manifesto that he was aware of that. and, perhaps chose this date in alignment without. so there's a lot here, but as the sheriff said, this was a hate filled crime. and we just shouldn't have that kind of hate in jacksonville. >> [inaudible] >> that's still under investigation, also. before we go any further, i want to give -- the opportunity to address you all about a few things. sheriff? >> thank you, sheriff waters. first, on behalf of the entire fbi, i want to express my deepest sympathies to the loved ones of those innocent souls that we lost in today's attack. no life should ever be lost to this kind of violence, and our thoughts are with the families tonight after this tragic event. the -- immediately upon learning about the shooting, fbi agents rushed to the scene to assist our partners at jessica. as we speak, members of our evidence response team and our investigative specialists continue to work alongside jay also to ensure every fbi resource is brought to air, to aid in this investigation. i have committed to sheriff waters that our assistance will continue for as long as necessary. in addition, fbi jacksonville is coordinating with the civil rights division of the department of justice, and the u.s. attorney's office for the middle district of florida. we have opened a federal civil rights investigation, and we will pursue this incident as a hate crime. hate crimes are always, and will always, remain a top priority for the fbi. because they are not only an attack on a victim, they are also meant to threaten and intimidate an entire community. everyone has a right to feel safe in their communities, and in their homes, and i assure you, the fbi will bring every resource we have to bear, to bring justice to those families of those innocent lives we lost today. thank, you i'll turn it back over to sheriff waters. >> ship, you mentioned that swastikas were found on the gun? >> yes. >> did he own both those guns? were they parents guns? >> those were not his parents guns. i cannot say that he no owed them, but i know that his parents didn't. his parents didn't want him in their house. from what we can tell, we don't know yet. that's still a deep part of the investigation. we're going to get into. >> the red flag law -- >> that something that we can't get into, because we don't know yet. i want to get out of your, i want to tell you as much as we can right now, so that our community will no, one, that there's no danger. further danger. and to, i want to be as transparent as possible. i want to let you know exactly what his intentions were, because there's no reason not to tell our community what went on. and, i think that's important for people to know. >> also, the shooting earlier this morning in boston, tonight, are there going to be any sort of precautions -- [inaudible] >> jack's games and events are very well covered, and one thing has nothing to do with the other. this was quite frankly a miniature decided he wanted to take lives. >> was this a targeted crime, sheriff? >> no, he targeted a certain group of people. that's black people. that's what he said he wanted to kill. and that's a very clear. and, i don't know that the targets were specific, but i know that any member of that race at that time was in danger of the black race. >> >> any other questions? >> sheriff, i was going to ask. is there anything -- your office has not identified him yet. >> i'd love to identify him, but we cannot because we do not have a positive identification. it is very important for us as an agency to make sure that we have an official positive i.d.. when a person is deceased in jacksonville, their body is in the custody of the medical examiners office. so we have to wait until we can get a positive i.d.. once we do that, then i will tell you exactly who it is. >> real quick, is there -- can you give an age range? >> early twenties. >> early twenties, white? >> white male. thank you. >> one more question, was it not dollar tree or how dollar general? >> you dollar general. all right, thank you. >> let's bring in msnbc law enforcement analyst and retired atf special agent in charge, jim -- . jim, a lot of information that was just released by the sheriff, by the fbi, by the mayor. so let's walk through quite a bit of it. they're not identifying the shooter at this time. they did say this is a white male in his early twenties. he had an ar-style rifle and a handgun. he approached the dollar general store, he shot three people, two of those victims, male. one female. all of those victims, black. he then turned the gun on himself. they have found several manifestos, a manifesto to his family, a manifesto to the public, a manifesto to federal agencies, and the sheriff, they're saying that this was racially motivated. quote, he hated black people. jim, you and i have sat here many times with these questions unanswered. just how unusual is it to have this much information about motive at this point? >> it's very good on the part of the commander or the sheriff in jacksonville to get this information out quickly. to alleviate the fears of the community was so much news that can hurt them. but also to show his motivations and the hate that's driving him. this guy is full of hate, it's in his manifesto. he's got swastikas, which are the ultimate symbol of hate, painted on the guns he used to murder people. and he specifically targeted the people because of the color of their skin. so, what's important now is one, that did he have any confederates or coconspirators that helped him along and supplied him the weapons, or drove him to the scene, or were otherwise involved in the conspiracy with him. but he is not alone after. he supported by the wider community of hate, not only in the united states, but in the world. >> tees that apart for me, jim. i'm sorry to interrupt you, i just want to make sure i understand. which is, you have the sheriff saying he is not a part of a large group, and yet i take your point that there is no way to extricate someone who is indoctrinated in this hate from the larger movement of hate. how do you differentiate the two? >> right, exactly. it's the point. he may not be a dues paying member of a group that is involved in what i called the apparatus of organized hate, like clan or a specific group. he may not be a member which has meetings or pays dues and marches around with tiki torches. but he nevertheless is a member of the wider group, the wider milieu in the world of these hate groups. so he's reading their paraphernalia, he's reading the protocols of the elders of zion. he's reading their hate that black people are responsible for this, jewish people are responsible for this, the latino people responsible for this. catholics, there naming everybody. they hate everybody. they put this poison in the minds of people, and like this guy, who may have been alone mad dog that did this, but nevertheless, he's not really alone in his mind. he's been cocaine it with the hate. it's destroyed peoples lives in jacksonville, alicia. it's destroyed him too, because hate always destroys that carrier of hate. and, i've seen this so many times and arrested so many clansmen and not cease and committed so many bombings and killings and cases with them. we used to infiltrate their units and their cleverness and so much. so they don't go away, and it's up to us as the larger community in america of responsible people to always condemn hatred and bigotry and this kind of top, and never to tolerate it when the recreating the march on washington today for the civil rights era and yet we have this hate filled crime in our face. and that's what these guys were, alicia. they want this. they want everybody to see their hate, because they're just overflowing with it. and that's why the swastikas were on the gun, that's why he's got the manifesto, he's overflowing with hate. he cannot contain it, and so many people get like that and then they spew out and they commit vulgar, violent acts. >> you have the mayor talking about the heartbreak this community has been through not once but multiple times. -- to what a pastor on the ground had to say. >> i just want to say that this is terrifying. you know, it's so sad that it happened in this community. we're already going through so much, and i've been here in this community for a long time. i've never seen anything like this. and it's time for us to come together in our community. as a pastor, i'm just ready to do whatever. so listen, we just need to make ourselves available. the leadership needs to come together, and truly, the people in our community need us. >> jim, there is always the healing that needs to happen for communities, for survivors, that is a very long road. part of that of course is accountability. the fact that you have the fbi already saying that they will pursue this as a hate crime. what does that tell you? >> well, i think the important thing in these cases is that the community knows that law enforcement, city county state and federal agencies are behind them. they stand for their civil rights, they stand behind them. there are so many cases across the south, alabama, mississippi, texas, tennessee, i worked so many cases where black pastors and black victims were suspicious of the police, because years ago, many of the police were bike riding clansmen. back in the cities in mississippi, there were more than 5500 long forsman officers in mississippi who were members of the klan, and so the black community is very spaced -- suspicious when we would try to go investigate a bombing or an arson or an attack, and we had to convince them, we understand that was them. but this is now. and we are here for you, and we stand with you. this is why the message from the sheriff is so good, the federal agents who stand up, the prosecutors, and all of us who would stand up and say, this guy is a very small part of america. he's caused some devastation here, but everybody else is with you. if anybody else helped him, conspired with him, did anything criminal behind him, we as law enforcement will do something about it. but it may not be the fact that there is criminal responsibility for others. but there is certainly moral responsibility in this atmosphere of hate that is weaving through media, social media. and i look to some politicians and leaders, and that should always be rejected. always be rejected. no good minded citizen should ever support any leader in any job, business, political, any job. media, that's a bigot or a racist. don't support them, voted out, don't do anything. because they're tearing at the fabric of america, and their ideas lead to guys like, this where they had broad support and that their ideas are valid when they are not. so they always must be condemned. it's a sad day, really. it's a sad day for jacksonville. >> of course, there is the ideology, there is the hate, and there is also the access to weapons. in this case, an ar-style rifle and i handgun. and i spoke to earlier, that was one of your first questions. what type of guns did he bring with him? the fact that there was both an ar-style rifle and a handgun, what do you make of that? >> well, he's prepared. this is standard like police operating procedure. we have a long rifle and you have -- in case your long rifle were to jam or you could drop it or get wounded or drop it, or somebody attacks you and you drop it. so, i don't know if nbc news has confirmed the bulletproof vest, but there was some reporting about a best. in any way, he's -- prepared to do his mask murder. i mean, this guy wants to do the mass murder. he's like the shooter in buffalo, new york. he's like the shooter at the el paso walmart who shot down all the latino people, in buffalo the attack was on black americans. they want to attack some minority. we've seen the attacks in pittsburgh on the jewish community. they want to attack those they hate, and they want to prepare for it. the ultimate -- cowards they are, they prepare to shoot down unarmed people. i mean, think about the unbelievable cowardice and vulgarity of how cowardly these people really are. and that tells you everything about how awful their mind set is. to prepare that heavily to shoot unarmed people. they're not going to shoot them down, the police certainly will if they could get there in time. but it just shows you what cowards they really are. and the preparation. his writing his manifesto's, alicia, to the families. he said to federal agents, sent them around, why? he's feeling it all out, he believes it, he wants to hurt people, he wants to kill people. >> manifestos -- >> we should never mention his name except for today's reporting. his name should be written in dust and never spoken again. it will be on these evil websites, but by any good thing in america, you should never think about his name. us in the business, we have to know it. but we shouldn't even repeat it. it's the names of the victims and the civil rights heroes, we should always talk about. >> law enforcement waiting to share that name until they have a positive i.d.. there is a lot of information, jim, shared at that press conference. i want you to take a listen to this piece from the sheriff. >> the shooter killed three people before turning the gun on himself. taking his own life. all those in the three individuals killed and the shooter himself, there are no additional people who suffered gunshot wounds. we are not identifying the deceased victims at this time, but i can tell you that there are two male victims and one female victim. all of the deceased victims are black. the shooter had authored several manifestos, one to his parents, one to the media, and one to federal agents. portions of these manifestos detail the shooter's disgusting ideology of hate. fight -- plainly put, the shooting was regionally motivated, and he hated black people. >> plainly put indeed. jim, you and i have sought -- sat here many times talking about the push and pull that long forsman faces when it comes to just how much to share as these situations unfold. i don't believe i've ever sat through a press conference like this, where we have received so much information about the shooter, about their motivations, about their intent. talk to me about the decision by law enforcement, by sheriff waters, to be so direct, so blunt, and so plain ensuring that information. >> well, you know, that is what's taught to law enforcement, public information officers in their professional organization. that's what they talk about. i talk about it with my friends that are public information officer's, and other commanders like i was. i'm going to talk to a few hundred law enforcement officers next week. and i would say, put it out. put the truth out as much as you can. if it doesn't hurt the investigation. and certainly what a suspect is dead, if you don't have any reason to hold it, you do have to check for coconspirators, you have to make sure everybody is safe, you have to check for other bombs and other corners of the investigation. but to the limit that you can, put out as much as you can so that the public can understand what's going on. the public is smart, and the public does not panic. that's a lie, and law enforcement officers should never use that, oh, we might cause panic. you're not gonna cause panic. what you cause panic by is holding information that could help the public understand what's going on around them. even in the dc sniper case, where i was a deputy commander, we put a lot of information out so the public could be in tune with what we were doing. and don't worry about that. so the sheriff here is doing a very good model presser, because he's telling the people of his county and city what happened. and yet, he's still retaining the name of the deceased killer, because he has reason to. he wants to make sure it's right, he wants to verify it, i'm sure detectives and agents are trying to do some checks on associates and maybe coconspirators. so he's handling it just right, and eventually his name will be out, probably later tonight. it'll be pretty meaningless, because this guy is just a real loser. but, you know, i would hope people aren't just posting every word of this manifesto. i'd rather see it just sun upsized, and it's a street, a hate screen, and he really doesn't deserve to have every word printed on the front page of the newspaper above the fold. he doesn't deserve to have that message shown around the world. it's just garbage. when you read him, if you write one or two, you read all of them. and they're all just garbage. so, it's enough to say that it's hateful, and certainly if somebody can find it they probably well, but it will be the worst reading they ever had. because it's worthless. >> retired atf special agent in charge, jim kavanaugh, jim, as always, thank you. we're going to continue coverage after a quick break. er a quick break keep your laundry smelling fresh waaaay longer than detergent alone. if you want laundry to smell fresh for weeks, make sure you have downy unstopables in-wash scent boosters. 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