tarnished by their association with trump's desperate attempt to cling to power. they're very liberty now imperiled. that includes people who had reached great heights in their careers, trump's white house chief of staff mark meadows, the former justice department official jeffrey clark. rudy giuliani, once named time magazine's person of the, air widely a mired as america's mayor. lawyers like john eastman, kenneth kyi is where all, jenner -- they could've led prosperous lives, their livelihoods are now in jeopardy for taking part in trump's scheme. meanwhile, all of this has unfolded in atlanta in another state where trump tried to overturn the results of the election. the disgraced ex presidents power over the republican party could not have been more apparent. onstage in milwaukee, for the first primary debate of the season, the majority of the candidates can dip eating to succeed trump as the leader of the grand old party were forced to acknowledge that they would support the election of a convicted felon if it came down to that. it's looking like it could come down to that. trump remains in deep legal jeopardy for a whole host of serious alleged crimes. kicking off the campaign for a second term in the white house, trump has depicted himself as a political martyr. at his rallies, he tells his supporters that he is the only thing standing between them and the supposed evils of the federal government. he's repeatedly proclaimed, quote, i am your retribution, and quote. for all the bluster and the grandstanding he's exhibited on the campaign trail this year, in reality, donald trump needs his supporters more than they actually need him. he needs their money to fuel his presidential campaign. perhaps, more importantly, pay his legal defense. which is why his team was so quick to turn his mugshot into a fundraising opportunity. he needs their support to regain the power of the presidency. he needs to regain the power of the presidency to escape punishment for his alleged crimes. like others accused of having a criminal enterprise, a donald trump needs the loyalty of his codefendants in order to stay out of prison. although early motions filed by a handful of the defendants may already be testing that. yesterday, sydney powell followed kenneth chesebro's lead. they filed a motion seeking a speedy trial in her case. effort that trump does not want to be part of. the last thing he needs is a speedy trial. that goes against his history of vote pulling strategic delays during litigation. additionally, three people indicted in fulton county for serving as fake electors, kathy latham, sean still, david schaffer. all separately filed to remove their case to federal court. now, get, this i hope you're sitting down for this one. they are arguing in the motion that all three directly have donald trump to blame for their crimes. they write and their filings that they were acting, quote, at the direction of the president of the united states. that makes it interesting. joining me now is someone who knows a thing or two about donald trump's demands for loyalty. he even wrote a book about it. michael cohen has previously served as the personal attorney of donald trump over a decade. he's bestselling author of the book disloyal, and i'm. wire and revenge, how donald trump weaponize the department of justice against his critics. both of which are remarkably important right now. he's also the host of the mea culpa and political beatdown podcast. michael, good to see you, thank you for being with us. >> good to see you. >> you touched on the loyalty idea. prosecutors understand it from organized crime. you understand it because you worked with donald trump. >> i lived it. >> talking about this. jen ellis posting why these people not pay for the defense. rudy giuliani has been escaping and scratching to donald trump to get him to pay for the defense. why is donald trump not paying for their defense? what is the consequence of that? >> well the consequence, you can see what's going on right now. i had asked during the defense agreement for donald to continue to pay. he did not. we see now what's happening with him. talking about karma boomerang. everything that i have said, every warning that i have given to rudy, to jenna ellis, given to sydney powell. i've given them to all of them. on shows a q r's. donald cares for no one or anything other than himself. why he refuses to make the payments when it's not even his money. it is a head-scratcher to me. i don't understand. it he's seen the consequences of allowing people to exit the -- and that's what it is. it's fealty to donald. look at what's happening when you allow these individuals to leave. let's not also forget that rudy, at one point in time, turned around and said, i have evidence. i have an insurance policy. was he bluffing the white donald bluffs? it seems so to me. >> one wonders. i was looking at the georgia accounts. this is just california. one of 41. and names everybody. they're starting with donald trump. trump said yesterday, i don't know who some of these people are. quite possibly he doesn't over the quake electra's were. the top of this list is rudolph giuliani, john charles eastman, mark randele meadows, kenneth john cheeseborough, jeffrey bosler clark, who we try to make at the attorney general, janet lin ellis, his lawyer standing next to giuliani, he certainly knows the first six people on the list. very, very well. they've all got stuff on him. is he not worried about that? >> donald doesn't think like a normal human being. he doesn't see, for example, a trial. which is coming up in october. he doesn't see it. it's eternity away. his whole life has been predicated on the process of delay. october of 2025, we will figure out how to delay it. again, you talked about it in your opening. the hope is that he's able to secure the presidency and order to protect himself from present. >> he leaned on the fact that he can't prosecute a sitting president and legal counsel guidance and he feels that's a witch hunt and if he were to win the nomination, he would argue it's political. if he wins the presidency once again, he's home free. >> well, you listen to a lot of pundits. you're not really home free. you still have the manhattan district attorney casey. you now have the fani willis case. and those are not pardon-able based on federal jurisdiction. >> i disagree. it would cause a constitutional issue that this country has never seen before. how would they come and get him? are you going to tell me that local authorities are going to go to washington and any location that donald is at, of course you can't their job is to guard him. this would create a constitutional issue that this country has never seen. that's what donald wants. he's pushing the line every single day further and further by doing the things that he does. he knows what he's doing. he doesn't know what he's doing. he knows that he's guilty. of course, to play to his supporters, he will never acknowledge it. why wouldn't he? he's drifting off of them. >> who would you think is a linchpin? obviously in the january 6th indictment, rudy giuliani as an unindicted and an and named coconspirator. rudy giuliani is all over the. think sydney powell is all over. john eastman, we know what his role was. ken cheeseborough, we know what his role. won the chief of staff showed up nowhere in the january six indictment. all over the georgia indictments as unindicted coconspirator and who is the one they need the most? there is more than one and f any of them ends up turning its destruction for the rest. rudy, for sure, mark meadows for sure. and eastman for sure. >> do you know already well? did you deal with him a lot? >> unfortunately, yes. >> where do you think he is? he seems to have been desperate for donald trump to continue to pay the legal fees. ldhe's got to be pretty upset that hasn't come to pass. >> if he's not, there's something wrong. he's watching his entire legacy explode. you, know a lot of people always ask me, how come you ended up deciding to cooperate? >> the answer is, when i watched donald trump sitting with his arms folded at the chair during a interview rate -- >> right after you've been arrested? >> correct, i turned to him, he said it's disgusting what the fbi headed. he raided the lawyers home, law office. it's the end of attorney-client privilege. >> -- >> i started thinking to myself, one of my attorneys? really, the guy who you called every single day at four in the morning and 11 at night? the guy who while on vacation you are speaking to him hundreds of hours? this is the guy that doesn't have a name? that is donald trump. and i will say it again on this show. hoping that someone like rudy or eastman or mark meadows watching. donald doesn't care about. you he doesn't care about you one bit. we will use you as the scapegoat and the system will use you as the scapegoat in order to get somebody. these three could easily end up in the same situation that i ended up. i can promise you something. it's not fun. >> i will ask you something about what you know about. the legal findings by the fake electors in georgia use the language. they say at the direction of donald, trump this is the exact language used in the 2018 sentencing memo. in your, case it read, quote, as cohen himself has admitted, with respect to both payments, we are talking about the hush money -- >> it's the record. i never made the payment for taryn mcdougal. >> -- >> so, as cohen admitted, both payments or one payments, he acted in coordination with individual one. >> for the benefit of individual number one. >> it's the same thing with these folks. >> it's never a good sign. >> when your codefendants are saying this about. you it can't be good. >> it's not good. exactly what happened to me, i predict it's going to happen to all of the 18 co-indicted defendants. i mean, look at what's going on here. we are watching, as donald trump, and i was appalled, to be honest, with you while watching the news and watching how donald was brought to the fulton county jail. 40 motorcade and in new jersey. 40 motorcade at georgia. why? he's nothing more than indicted defendant. how much money did it cost the american taxpayers? how much money did it cost the people of atlanta in order to put all that police officers for what? for this man to roll up like he's caesar coming through the gates of rome after a victory? he is an indicted a defendant on 91 counts. he should not be given this sort of royal treatment. >> michael, thank you as always. we don't get to the other stuff. the revenge in the retribution. that is another topic we will take seriously. michael cohen as a former personal attorney for donald trump, the host of the excellent mea culpa and political beatdown podcast. the author of the books, revenge, how donald trump weaponize the pardon of justice, and disloyal a member. still to come, what happens when the indicted numbers of trump world get their own lawyers. why it could be a problem for the disgraced former president. plus, legal scholars say donald trump is ineligible for holding office again. and now there is a movement to make sure he doesn't. also, monday marks the 16th anniversary of the march on washington. martin luther king's iconic i have a dream speech. up next, we'll head to the lincoln memorial where 100,000 people are expected to attend today's commemoration. s commemoration. business for 5g solutions... ...to not only enhance the fan experience, but to advance how the game is played. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. try killing bugs the worry-free way. not the other way. zevo traps use light to attract and trap flying insects with no odor and no mess. they work continuously, so you don't have to. zevo. people-friendly. bug-deadly. age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv right now get a free footlong at subway. like the subway series menu. buy one footlong in the app, get one free. for freeee. that's what i'm talking about. order in the subway app today. 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(vo) subaru is the national park foundation's largest corporate donor, helping expand access for all. pano ai chooses t-mobile for business for 5g solutions... close to 100,000 people are ...because t-mobile helps pano ai innovate, so they can stop the spread of wildfires. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. expected to convene and washington, d.c.. today to pay tribute to the 60th anniversary of the march on washington for jobs and freedom. that's what it was. call on august 20, eight 1963, more than a quarter million americans from all walks of life participated in what's known as the largest political rallies for human rights in american history. the marge culminated and dr. martin luther king junior delivering his iconic i have a dream speech for the lincoln memorial. we will not be satisfied until justice rolls down like righteousness and river, and quote. to the, state complete satisfaction of that has not been achieved. that historic march is commemorated with an event today that seeks to address a range of issues, including threats to democracy, criminal justice reform, and voting rights. it's co-hosted -- reverend al sharpton by the national accent network. many prominent figures are going to take the stage, they including the civil rights leader, andrew, yang south carolina congressman jim clyburn and hakeem jeffries of new york. joining me now from the event in washington, nbc news correspondent tremaine lee. tell me what we're seeing out there? >> ali, there is this kind of growing energy among the thousands of people who have gathered he. -- folks came from all over the country to hear an amazingly diverse speakers. [inaudible] members of the lgbtq community here. not only commemorating those legacies but also continuing it. i sit down and speak with the third -- about what this moment means. let's take a listen. >> that part of the speech that we talked about, our daughter joins us today. the only grandchild of martin luther king junior and grant of scott king. at 15 years, old she has progressively lost rights since the day she was born. she was born in 2008. that started in 2013. the voting rights act, the crown jewel of the civil rights movement being totally decimated. what we have seen since that time it is rampant legislation being pushed through all over the country. making it harder not easier for people to vote. >> one thing she said there, remembering what had been the crown jewel in the civil rights movement. it is the erosion of rights and the decades ever since. women have lost some degree of bodily autonomy. it's also about engaging -- [inaudible] so many ways america -- the wealth gap has widened between black and white. >> tremaine thank you for your reporting. we will drop in without things are going throughout the course of the morning. to mainly in washington, d.c.. at the national wall. coming, up two of the most important legal minds in america today. judge michael luttig and lauren stripe look claimed on this very show last weekend baton only is donald trump disqualified from being president again, they outlined how that can be enforced. coming up, next i will be joined by another important legal mind who is vowing to do just that. just that. 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(vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. >> two of the most revered legal minds and america made a major waves, they announced it in the form of a blazing headline in the atlantic. the constitution prohibits trump from ever being president again, and quote. it's an argument that had been made by legal scholars before. the dual endorsement of the legendary constitutional law professor laurence tribe of high bird and the retired conservative judge michael luttig was game changing. they came on this show for us to explain the argument, which is actually quite simple. it says that section three of the 14th amendment of the constitution says that anyone who has taken an oath to uphold the constitution and then engaged in an insurrection cannot hold office again. plain and simple. donald trump had been incited an insurrection is now constitutionally ineligible to be president again. the question, though, as luttig, as judge luttig outlined for us last weekend, how you enforce it. >> anyone state or federal is charged with listing the candidates for the presidency is obligated under the constitution to make the decision himself or herself as to whether donald trump is qualified to be put on in the ballot under the constitution of the united states. this is a momentous significance. neither congress nor congress through impeachment nor a judicial order, nor the results of a criminal conviction are needed. >> okay, mike drop. no judicial order needed. no criminal conviction needed. no trial needed and no election needed. donald trump's in a legibility to hold office is, however, are only hypothetical unless and until, as luttig, said the officials who were on charge of voting begin taking action. that was last week. this, week the journalist attorney is trying to start a national movement to compel those officials to act. he wrote this week about he himself filing a complaint to disqualify donald trump on the ballot. he is urging others to do the same. joining me now is my old friend dean obeidallah. he's an attorney and a columnist for msnbc daily. he is the host of the dean obeidallah show on sirius xm radio. a longtime friend of the show. okay, let's get down to this thing. i've got the constitution. it does seem clear. it does seem very clear what they are saying. what lead and tribes were saying is that this is really up to you generally speaking, the secretaries of state. they are the ones who are going to get the filings when donald trump and 50 states filed to be the president of the united states. and normally, they say we are born. here am i satisfied you're born? here are you 35 years of age or greater and we are done. what these guys are saying, what you are saying, no, there is another matter to consider. have you been involved in instruction? >> absolutely, there are people who say, well, this is some parliamentary procedure. or can we really use this? i want to remind people, it's the constitution. it is the 14th amendment. you don't miss -- we can't dismiss the 14th amendment. this is part of the constitution. it says that if you've been involved an insurrection after pledging an oath or given aid and comfort to the insurrectionist, i think donald trump has done both, to be honest with. you, tamia key is the new mexico case. last year, the county head of cowboys for trump, the court had a, trial they heard testimony. what was an insurrection under the 14th amendment by the terms of the people who drafted a? the first determination, yes, the insurrection. the idea that people who are trying to prevent the execution of a federal law through violence or intimidation, they had that a second. they engaged in. it and they said, yes they looked at the conduct. he brought people to the capitol on january six he didn't engage in any violence once a lever. he chewed them out during the attack yes, he was charged with misdemeanor for violating the law. it's very clear as the 14th amendment has been interpreted, we don't need a conviction. you don't need to be charged an insurrection. so, if you look at that in the new mexico case they have essentially affirmed that is the law of new mexico right now. saying, an insurrection is what we saw in january six. as contemplated by the 14th amendment. it is time for the secretary of state -- 's even republican ones to bring it to the head now. not wait later, let's bring into a head now. it's got to go to the. courts it's -- >> >> because a secretary of state who does that is immediately going to have a lawsuit filed against the, right? >> of course, they should. >> be but the problem is, as i spoke to janet griswold, secretary of state from colorado last week, nobody file for anything. it nobody in the merica is running for president at the moment, saying on fox news that they're getting a presidential candidate make until the day you file with the secretary of state's office. what do you suggest people do about this? >> i'm suggesting people sent, and drafted for the mail i like, it's my substack newsletter. that could literally email me, at enough radio.com. i will send it to them, urging them to consider the issue now. to look at it now, to look at the case in the new mexico, look at the history of how the 14th amendment has been applied. you don't need any kind of conviction. that's such a key point people bring up. he wasn't convicted. it doesn't matter. this 14th amendment enacted after the civil war was to prevent those people who try to destroy our nation from the outside from coming back in and destroying from the inside. , so it's never been more relevant that donald trump, that's something, ali. remember 2016? donald trump and ted cruz who ended up being born in canada? >> i was born in canada. and -- >> he said this is going to be a precarious situation for the gop. >> they're going to be mired in lawsuits and litigation. >> they also said they should be answered now. well, the trump standards as this should be answered now. it really. should secretary of state would have the courage, even a republican won, who, for their own party, says i want this resolved. >> so i can make him president when he decides to run. >> state right now, secretary of state says your band. there's an appeal, an urgent appeal of the serene creek or, ultimately. but january, donald trump is disqualified. the gop has eight months, their convention, to pick a new candidate. after debates. raise money for that person. imagine this goes all the way to september, october of next year, and then he is disqualified and the reaction then? it will be unsettling. it will be wrong. but donald trump, in my view, it doesn't belong on the ballot. he belongs in a person. so that is going to take care of itself with a criminal justice system. what we can do now, use every legal means we have to protect our nation from a man who attempted a coup to end our democratic republic. a man who is the leader of a fascist movement. i say that academically, it's correct. use every means possible. because if you don't the, stories look back at us and go, why didn't they do everything legally? >> they need it spelled out in their own constitution how you do this. >> you want to say for democratic republic? do something. send an email to secretary of state, call your secretary of state. and there's already lawsuits being filed. new mexico, it was filed by a voter. if you're a registered voter in the state, you can bring a lawsuit. if you get the wherewithal to, what now. let's bring this to a head now. it's better for everyone. democrats and republicans, to be brought. >> this guy is good. you should have a radio show. >> i try my best,. ali [laughter] >> food to see you, my friend. dina fidelity is an attorney, and an msnbc daily columnist. he's the host of the siriusxm, the dean obeidallah show. all right, he's young, he's charismatic, he's got a compelling back story, but the presidential candidate vivek ramaswamy is a dangerous conspiracy theorist. piracy theorist. ...to not only enhance the fan experience, but to advance how the game is played. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. want your clothes to smell freshly washed all day without heavy perfumes? 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capitalism lifts us up from poverty! there are three branches of government! not for, and the u.s. constitution is the strongest guarantor of freedom in human history. that is what one of the american revolution. that is what will win us the revolution of 2024. >> now, behind the smile in the charismatic whips, or some ideas and beliefs are really quite alarming. vivek ramaswamy gets peddled dangerous conspiracy theories about january six, claiming it was driven by excessive government censorship. he pushed as recently as this month, a conspiracy about 9/11, suggesting it may have been an inside job by the u.s. government. his campaign claims he was misquoted, but the recently released audio recording of the incident sure makes it sound like he was, in fact, pushing the conspiracy. there are his policy ideas. he believes the united states should stop providing aid to ukraine immediately. that ukraine should concede the donbas region to russia. he wants to race the voting age to 25, unless young people served in the military or pass a test. he has pledged to abolish key government agencies like the fbi, that the permit of education, and the irs. you have a climate change agenda is a hoax, and that increased investment in fossil fuels are a necessity for human flourishing. he has promised to pardon donald trump on his first day in office, and it doesn't end there. just yesterday, ramaswamy said he would write elon musk as an advisor when he wins the presidency, and then he like in the progressive democratic representative, ayanna pressley, and the activists and author, hebron kinde, two grand wizards of the ku klux klan. you just said to people, to black progressive people, are like grand wizards of the ku klux klan. and by the way, he said climate change refugees, of which at last count, there was an estimated 20 million, simply don't exist. you believe social welfare programs are incentivizing young women to abandon the idea of a nuclear family, and has convinced them to avoid traditional marriage. ramaswamy has been gaining on desantis in recent polls, those still trailing trump by about 50 points. he was cheered and booed and faced heavy criticism, and gained lots of new donors. true, his presidential bid is still a very long shot, but eyes wide open as we see a brand-new conspiracy theorist start taking the spotlight. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. 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(vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. >> it's not that i know nothing about the law. i just often say most of my legal knowledge comes from law and order. but even i can figure out is a bad sign if your lawyers need lawyers. there are now seven lawyers who once worked for donald trump or now under indictment in georgia for allegedly trying to help him in his plot to overturn the 2020 election. importantly, it appears that trump is not footing the bill for their legal defenses. adding insult to injury, many of these lawyers were volunteers. they didn't receive compensation for their services to begin with. highlighting the financial struggles faced by some of these, lawyers jenna ellis, who turned herself in at the fulton county jail on wednesday, this is actually her crowd funding support page to help pay for her legal defense. all she appears to be smiling proudly in her mugshot, she does not appear thrilled that trump is hanging around to dry. at least recently called out trump's super pac, maga, ink on social media for refusing to provide any funds for her legal defense. quote, i was reliably informed trump isn't funding any of us who are indicted. would this change if he becomes the nominee? white, then, not now? i totally agree this has become a bigger principle than just one man. so why isn't maga, inc, funding everyone's defense? and quote. campaign committees for trump have spent massive sums on his personal legal expenses. none of those committees have covered the legal defenses from those formal legal team, and cleaning jenna ellis, john eastman, jeffrey clark, rudolph giuliani, and kendis cheeseborough. it might not be smart to leave your formal legal team hanging. a recent court filing in the mar-a-lago case illustrates a lie. federal prosecutors in the classified documents case added new obstruction charges last month against trump. a court filing this week revealed the basis for those new charges, a mar-a-lago staffer named you skill to various, who changed his prior false testimony in order to now implicates trump. the correction of the record happened after he switched attorneys, leaving behind the one that was paid for by a trump pack. the virus identified in smithson diamond as trump employee for, it's now said to be a key witness in the case, alleging trump, his body bag, while not a, and his property manager, carlos de oliveira, conspired to delete surveillance footage showing the movement of classified materials after trump was subpoenas. tuesday's government filing notes that quote, immediately after receiving new council, trump employee for retracted his prior false testimony and provided information that implicated nauta, they all of her, and trump in efforts to the late security camera footage as set forth in the superseding indictment, end quote. now, tavaras it's not the first instance of a former trump associate turning against a former boss amid legal issues. cassidy hutchinson, remember her? former trump aide. mark meadows a, really, who switched to an attorney who was not associated with trump during the january six committee hearings so under the council of a new lawyer, she was much more forthcoming with her testimony. her initial attorney, stephen passantino, reportedly advice to, quote the less you remember, the better. end quote. all of this underscores that attorneys paid for by trump world are ultimately beholden to donald trump. once impartial attorneys come into play, a, pattern seems to emerge. former trump associates don't hesitate to implicate their former boss. in a moment, i'm joined by two brilliant lawyers who will help us understand the stakes here and what likely comes next. the former prosecutor, catherine christian, and msnbc legal analyst, lisa reuben, are standing by to make us smarter, right after the break. after the break. ...to not only enhance the fan experience, but to advance how the game is played. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. and we're done. hm, what about these? ♪ looks right. 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great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. >> joining me now, catherine home of the xfinity 10g network. pierson, former assistant district attorney and msnbc legal analyst and lisa reuben, a former litigator of msnbc legal analyst. welcome to both of you, thank you for being with us. at, least because we've been so involved in this georgia case and things having to do with the january 6th case, i want to go back to this mar-a-lago matter in which this defendant, who was a defendant, who was unindicted coconspirator, received a target letter about this investigation and what happened? then he decided he wanted better representation, then the trump unfettered lawyers? >> it wasn't exactly that, ali. yes, he decided he probably want a different representation after receiving the target letter. but it was also about the special counsel's office went to court and said that his trump paid for lawyer, stanley woodward, had a conflict because he also represented walt nauta, who is a codefendants in that case. it was at that point that a judge in d.c. overseeing that grand jury said to him, you have a choice. your lawyer may have a conflict here. we are going to appoint council if you would like independent counsel. he avail them selves of that choice and that's when he made the decision, me, not trump. >> catherine, donald trump said something interesting after he was arrested. he was asked about the various people, the various co-defendants and unindicted coconspirators in that georgia case. he said, i don't know some of them. some of them don't have a lot of money. two very different points. it's possible that there's 18 other people. we may not know the specifics about some of them lower down the line. but certainly knows the halfway mark on that. but, what do you think the implication is. some of them don't have a lot of money? >> it's sort of like that leon hemsley, the little people. and around this little people. the problem donald trump has with the georgia case, unlike the classified documents, were those two defendants relied on donald trump for their income and their lawyers are being paid for donald trump. at least six now on the georgia case are like, i'm not going down for donald trump. and they have said in particular the ones who are asking for the cases to be removed. the dea doesn't want the case to be removed. i bet you they are very happy that these defendants for the basis of being removed are saying, i did what i did at the behest of donald trump. so, that's why they're saying they want it removed. they are claiming their federal officers. they will lose that. , so they are clearly the defendants in the georgia case, are like, no way am i going down for donald trump. so, some of them will probably enter into plea agreements and flip against him. but they are clearly not going to just you know, roll over. they did it for the cult of trump. now, they are seeing particularly him coming out there saying, you know, i don't know them. that was not very smart on his behalf. >> lisa, this is a january six indictment. rudy giuliani is all over it without his name being used one time in here. this is the georgia indictment, rudy giuliani is all over this with his name being used. rudy giuliani doesn't have a whole lot of money to pay for his lawyers. he never told trump -- essentially stuff you can, but the former president has pointed out that he lost the cases related to the election. he, meaning really to dealing. mr. trump told aides he didn't want mr. giuliani to receive a dime unless he succeeded. so, rudy giuliani wants the money for his legal fees. trump is not ponying up. play this out for me? >> trump is in the whole world of trouble with rudy giuliani, right? not only did trump not pay rudy giuliani for the legal work that he did, giuliani pleaded and begged for that, but at this point, he is not paying for any of giuliani's own legal defense expenses. and that is a real problem for donald trump as illustrated by the case of michael cohen, because we see signs everywhere that rudy giuliani is in real monetary's trouble. yes a lot of exposure. civil defamation case, the lie georgia election workers, ruby freeman and her daughter sheamus. he also has significant legal expenses for all the investigations he's embedded involved in thus far, and there's times he's having trouble retaining lawyers because of that. he practiced manhattan the parchment up on the market, and all he's gotten from trump so far, julie, is to do fund-raisers for him. that significant,. to trump himself is signaling that he himself is cash poor in these campaign committees. if he wasn't cash poor, he would offer to give folks like rudy giuliani some legal representation and funding from his campaign committees, like save america or even try to arrange, you, know wink wink, not not, because monica inc it's a super pac that is not supposed to be coordinating with trump from maga, inc, but he can you do, that because those campaign are bleeding cash more quickly than they can take in from the sale of mugshot t-shirts and the like. so rudy giuliani could be the michael cohen of this. he doesn't want to be, but he may face no other choice, unless he sells that 6.5 million dollar apartment in manhattan, real quick. >> catherine, let me ask you about something donald trump said. he may have heeded the judges advice in the two cases, the two most recent cases, where they formed him to sort of not do things that sounded intimidating to people who were involved in this case. the georgia case, even more specific, referring to social media. so, after he got arrested, he made this remark because i thought i won the election in thy every right to challenge it. i want to read to you what roger par laugh, the senior editor at lawfare or is about the sincere relief idea. he says while trump's refusal to face facts may be unusual for next president, it is not unusual for white-collar criminal defendant. many such defendants are vexing lee willful people who seem incapable of seeing themselves in the wrong. elizabeth holmes, the founder of theranos, is a dramatic recent example, while jeffrey scaling, ceo of enron, was another example from an earlier era. juries have no trouble convicting such people. when confronted with individuals who relentlessly and pervasively make false statements, jurors usually conclude that they are liars. jurors get lying. they've met liars in their lives. they've been burned by them. they don't like them, end quote. donald trump's going around there saying, i sincerely believe i love the election. there's lots of evidence here he didn't win the election. how do you have that place? >> he also said he never heard of a mugshot. you know, the man grew up in new york city. come on, he heard of a mugshot. well the dea well listed in this case wisely, was charged very substantive crimes. so, the fake elector scheme, forgery for those false certifications, impersonating a public officer with fake electors. she included the intimidation and harassment of election workers, influencing witnesses, the voting machine tampering, computer tampering. , so she included charges that whether he says i truly believe it or not, you know, this ride scope, these 19 defendants, each person had a role. and they are all subsequently charged, and donald trump has eight separate substantive charges that also includes the rico. so, the conspiracy for forgery, the conspiracy to impersonate a public officer. so, those fake electors, three fake electors, are moving to get that case and they say they did what they did because of donald trump. so, i think mr. pro-life is correct. and you know, juries -- a an impartial jury can be selective here, with extensive and careful jury selection. >> thanks to both of you, as always. catherine christian, a former manhattan assistant district attorney and msnbc legal analyst, and lethal reuben, former litigator and msnbc legal analyst. up next, the former president is portraying himself as a martyr, employing a political strategy used throughout this history, and it is hardening his support from his base. another hour of velshi begins right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ good morning to you saturday, august 7th, i will begin this hour with a fast-moving case against the former choice and peace, quadrupling in died, it insurrectionist president. and 18 others in fulton county, georgia. after holding elected office for just one term, donald trump has been impeached twice. he has been indicted four times and for district or sections. he faces 91 felony counts, including being accused of heading up a criminal enterprise. his mugshot is a visual representation of how trump has corrupting american politics for the last eight years. how often he'd disregard of the norms, tested the rule of law, and push democracto

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