telling msnbc he's absolutely believes in trump's big lie. >> i promise if you just stay here and just be patient the great pumpkin will rise behind us from the pumpkin patch. they're all fascists. go ahead. >> rudy giuliani has a big issue to resolve. we'll explain that situation. there's a deadline they all have to turn themselves in. how house speaker mccarthy floats an impeachment inquiry into president joe biden. >> kev, that will really help with the swing voters that you're doing so well already. why don't you go ahead and buy gold watches for all the members who won joe biden's districts -- >> kevin mccarthy's confusing comments on why it should happen and more on the president's visit to hawaii and the video that the far-right is obsessed with. >> this is crazy. willie, we're looking at the headlines from the local papers. now, if you were following right-wing media yesterday, and even if you weren't, a lot of it was reaching out and pulling you into your smartphone, you'd think everyone in maw vie was angry with joe biden, that joe biden was having a siesta -- i know this is going to shock you, it was all garbage. you look at the local newspapers, you look at the local reports, you listen to the local people, it was the maui newspaper. everybody in these newspapers glowing coverage, thanking the president for being there, saying it made such a difference that he and jill were so emphatic, they were so giving, they gave them hope, and again, it's the same thing with this joe biden is sleeping deal. you actually look at the longer -- the longer video, he coughs, he bows his head like the woman next to him, he takes four deep breaths like he's trying to catch his breath. maybe, maybe he was moved. and then he's like nodding, looks up, yet the screaming headline is biden's sleeping. biden's sleeping. he coughs, look at this. goes down. he's been traveling. he takes one, two, catching his breath, by the way, the lady next to him, head bowed, too, very moving, and he's listening to the speaker, he raises his head, oh, my god, it's the end of the world as we know it. the only thing, willie, the only thing that we can thank god for is that joe biden was not wearing a tan suit. because then it would have been a total meltdown on the far right. the people of maui and again read the local coverage, don't listen to the lies on trumpy outlets, read the local coverage, all incredible positive. >> wearing a tan suit or perhaps riding a bicycle even worse joe, this was an significant moment, not a controversial moment but you're right, it was on certain news outlet and by prominent hosts tweeting out the individual crow. watch the video and listen to the void owe. they're talking about the people who died at least 100 with at least 800 missing in maui and he bowed his head in kind of reflection with other people there. this has become and if this supposed to be the what aboutism for everything that's happening to donald trump right now, where he's going to turn himself in tomorrow in his latest indictment tomorrow in atlanta, that stuff is going on, but look at this, joe biden bowed his head for 20 ek seconds at a ceremony in hawaii, it's pretty weak sauce if that's what you're looking at. >> again, they cut clips short, just when he's bowing his head. donald trump may have tried to steal elections, he may have tried to steal democracy, he may have unleashed riot -- we've all been ceremonies where we're moved. a guy who actually lost three family members, close family members, you know, we've seen him get emotional before and my god, you know, again the fact this is not about that this is about the reaction where you like you said, mika, it's this what aboutism, hunter biden's laptop, hunter biden, it's joe biden falls asleep, it's joe biden falls off a bicycle, it's all so shallow, it's all so stupid and it's all they have. >> it's all they have. i'll add to your list, many people have gone to jail for many, many years and are bankrupted and ruined because they followed the lead of donald trump. >> and the lies, willie, of these channels. >> the hosts know what they're saying are lies. i'm just saying, as we've learned, there are consequences to lies and you can only lie to people so many times before they catch on and they know you're lying and again, this not only affect bs the republican party and understood mines donald trump in the long run which it will, it makes the swing voters, it makes the independent voters, it makes the moderate republicans all say i'm not voting for that guy, i'm not voting for that party even if it means i stay home, again there's -- this is the long -- this is not the long play, this is just short, stupid stuff that always backfires against them. >> the facts and allegations in all of these indictments, the facts are so damning that you have to talk about someone else if you want to change the subject, you have to talk about joe biden sleeping, you have to talk about hunter biden. if hunter biden committed a crime he should be prosecuted and go to jail. but if you read these indictments they're so damning to donald trump and the people around him i'd want to change the subject too if he were my guy. >> absolutely. we have reverend al sharpton and special correspondent at vanity fair, host of the fast politics podcast, molly jong-fast. we're also following a major new development in classified documents case, a key witness against former president donald trump and his two co-defendants has retracted previous false testimony. >> he's flipped. he's flipped against the president. >> and has provided incriminating information about the defendants after switching lawyers. a new court filing by special counsel jack smith's office reveals that he served as the director of information technology at mar-a-lago changed his testimony about efforts to delete security camera video at the club last month. >> i'm sorry, to do what? >> he delete zbld deleted security footage that the justice department actually -- >> all this came out after he switched his lawyer to a public defender. he was initially represented by stanley woodward who also represents walt nauta and several other trump allies. and whose fees were being paid by trump's save america pac. according to the filing, he decided to switch attorneys after he learned he was being investigated on the suspicions he was making false statements. when testifying before the d.c. grand jury, he initially stated he was unaware of any efforts to erase the videos at mar-a-lago. but yesterday's filing received immediately after receiving new counsel trump employee 4 identified, he provided information that implicated walt nauta, carlos de on live area ya in efforts to delete security. prosecutors plan to call tevares as a witness at trial. attorney stanley woodward declined to comment to nbc news. >> molly, who would have ever believed that donald trump would be guilty of obstructing justice other than everyone? i mean, you go back and you look at the mueller investigation and he talks about in the mueller investigation, the multiple acts of obstruction of justice by donald trump. but they weren't -- because he was president and they weren't going to prosecute it, the multiple acts of obstruction by donald trump. you look at this documents case, the fbi, the doj, they asked for the information, trump and his lawyers lie, they obstruct justice, this is barr said is what's going to end up getting trump and we have this fascinating and may i say legal ly explosive reality of this obstruction inside of the obstruction. and that's donald trump ordering his workers to delete the security footage that the doj has subpoenaed and now he's got somebody who flipped. >> i mean, it's incredible stuff. look, we saw this in the first season of this drama with cassidy hutchinson, right, where she changed lawyers and decided she wanted to testify. trump is, you know, this is -- since he started running for president we've seen twice impeached, four indictments, there's no -- i mean, this is what he does and then conservative media and fox news on fis kate for him. we saw this in 2015, what about hillary clinton, remember when she was so sick and that's why she was so unelectable. >> let's bring in ken dilanian and hugh owe lowe. hugo, let's talk about trump employee 4, the i.t. guy at mar-a-lago, how significant is the fact that he's now flipped and will testify changing his testimony by the way but will testify to the fact that, yes, there was a request made from the top to delete the video from the servers at mar-a-lago. >> it's pretty significant because, you know, this obstruction that's described in the indictment is coming back out now, the former lawyer stanley woodward currently represents the mar-a-lago guy shining flashlights into the camera and stanley woodward has this massive con night of interest, because if he was to let his false statements stand he won't be representing him as a client. at the same time, he can't be representing oliviera because the testimony kind of incriminates each other. this is a problem. they're all part of a joint defense agreement and i think this is going to cause a real problem for trump's legal team as they get into the mar-a-lago case. >> ken, do you expect to see more of this, a lower level employee at mar-a-lago saying, hang on a second, i was told to say these things to protect my former boss at mar-a-lago. i'm not going jail for this. i'm not going to lie for donald trump. >> well, here's the thing, willie, walt nauta and carlos de oliviiera are in the same position, but for some reason they declined to do this and they find themselves charged now they're stuck in the situation where they've been charged. deoliviera he's lied to the grand jury. he changed his story. this just didn't happen. this happened in july. and then we saw the superseding indictment which made the most significant allegations of obstruction of justice in this whole affair which is as you said donald trump conspiring his employees. that was a huge deal. so, de oliviera is key witness. as you said, stanley woodward represents walt nauta in this matter. another lawyer named john irving represents carlos de oliviera. both men presumably highly sought after witnesses by the special counsel because they're the ones that actually spoke with donald trump, that could testify that trump ordered the destruction of the video. the i.t. director spoke to the other guys. jack smith would like to get their testimony. now, they're in a bit of a bind because they already charged them with lying to investigators, if they brought them before a trial as witnesses they would have to acknowledge they lied. but to answer your question, absolutely there are more avenues for this to happen. it's like a mob movie, lawyers being paid by president trump representing witnesses, suddenly when one gets a different lawyer they utterly change their stories and start remembering things they didn't before. >> okay, so that's the classified documents case which is clearly if it's possible getting more serious and ominous for the former president. now let's move to fulton county where former president is expected to surrender at the fulton county jail tomorrow evening, trump reportedly had his lawyers negotiate for him to turn himself in during primetime television hours, as the guardian reports, trump wanted to maximize television ratings to his benefit for his surrender to authorities in atlanta. and could extend the coverage of the proceedings by speaking afterwards in front of cameras and reporters. this is trump's fourth indictment in as many months, in each he's worked to turn appearances into spectacles if a quote, an effort to discredit the indictments. the booking process in fulton county typically includes a mugshot, fingerprinting and taking height and weight measurements. the guardian reports that trump has asked his lawyers and secret service to get him out of taking a mugshot, in previous cases he didn't have to take one but the fulton county sheriff has stated that the former president will be treated like any other defendant. >> rev, you know this guy for a very long time, his made for reality tv show candidacy and presidency now rolls into the law and order sort of part of the television series, and now he's demanding primetime coverage of his fourth indictment. most would want to shrink in the back, most would want to hide from photographers, no, not this president. he's running straight -- straight into the sunlight here and wants everybody to see him indicted for the fourth time. >> well, for those of us who have known donald trump for 35, 40 years fighting him and him trying to also socialize, this is donald trump, this is who he is, showman, theatric, trying to at all levels become the point of attention, certainly he didn't want to be indicted. but if i'm going to be indicted, i'm going to surrender, i'm going to make it a spectacle, for those who would dare compete with me i'm going to overshadow and make a speech like i'm a model. i told you before, joe, if donald trump had been born black he would have been don king it's about the spectacle, it's about the show and at some point, his lawyers need to sober him up he's flirting with jail because when you see people begin to flip on you, donald, and you see people beginning to get their own lawyers you'll understand that the show doesn't end with applause it could end with some of the cuffs that you go through during your surrender maybe become more permanent. the most embarrassing thing for him is if they release his weight in the preliminaries on thursday. there's always a weigh-in, donald, before a fight. >> because of his vanity definitely be on his mind. he's very worried about that. hugo you're writing about this surrender tonight, what is it going to look like? this is the former president of the united states. what is this night going to look like tomorrow night when it plays out? >> tonight, he won't be at the debate but aides will. tomorrow morning they'll fly back to newark, get on trump's plane and fly to atlanta. in the afternoon, evening, he'll motorcade from the airport to the jail, and then trump once he's done, he could come out and speak to the cameras right outside the jail. he may go back and do a press conference at the bedminster. fundamentally what's happening here is what has happened in each of his previous surrenders and arraignments, this is a moment of indignity for him. he doesn't have very many moves. when he's boxed into a corner he'll snipe back, bite back, and this is the counterattack. >> so, i'm curious, ken, if you have any information on why this was set up this way, obviously trump wants to turn it into a spectacle? is it possible that the other co-conspirators or co-defendants needed to processed during the day and they were trump after-hours to try and control the situation, i'm just wondering why he would get this opportunity to have a primetime moment, it seems that the officials in fulton county played by the book, mark meadows asking for more time, no, you can't more time. yet this seems different. any information on that? >> no, mika, but the jail officials have made clear they run a 24/7 operation over there, i think it's matter of scheduling. they were open to doing it at any particular time, it's deeply significant that unlike any other booking we've seen with donald trump it's very clear these guys are affording him no special breaks in terms of the mugshot, from all accounts they're going to take a mugshot. we've seen so much the mugshots of the co-defendants, they're not flattering. remember in federal system, what the marshals did, they said he's the former president we don't need to take a mugshot. they spared him some of the indignities of the booking process. in this case, it doesn't appear that's going to happen. so he has no choice but to lean into it. by the way, you may have seen john eastman, co-defendant, one of the architects of the false electors plan, leaning into the idea that he believes that the election was stolen and my reaction to that was, what else can he say? that's a corner stone of his defense that he legitimately believed in everything he was doing and he thought he was practicing law. >> molly, we're going to see a nice split screen shot of the republican party played out in two parts, one in milwaukee, at the debate. and then, the next night, in fulton county, georgia, where the other 50% of the voters seem to be. with the fourth indictment. talk about what you're going to be looking for during the debate, also over that entire 24 hours as we see, again, two sides of the republican party. >> so, the republicans who aren't donald trump, who are largely polling in the single digits except for desantis who's, you know, stuck at 16%, 17%, 18%, are going to try and get some of oxygen back but you see with this reporting that trump has sort of set this up to get as much oxygen as possible. thursday the debate coverage would drop and that's the day donald trump is going to be on his way to get booked. he'll have this mugshot, very likely he'll use this mugshot for fund-raising. i don't think a mugshot necessarily grows the electorate but i think the base is going to love it and i think he'll take advantage of that. i don't think these people have a chance. i think they're scared, too, to try and think of a non-trumpy gop future, there's just a certain lack of imagination that the rest of the republican field has. >> i think so. and rev, again, let me keep saying it, just to keep reminding people that with gravity returning, as gravity has been returning, and bad acts come back and legally slap the bad actors in the face, we've seen it time and again, in this case, all this talk about donald trump and the mugshot, and oh, we're going on sell the mugshot and we're going to raise money off of the mugshot, i don't mean to second guess donald trump's sort of gut instincts in politics, he's revving up a base that will be shrinking and with -- can we show the mugshot of john eastman who just -- that's what the lies lead you, this is where donald trump takes you. when all of the lawyers in the white house are telling you that your idea is a scam and you ignore them, and you know there's no case law supporting your fraudulent scheme, this is where it takes you. and only donald trump and donald trump's spotters would think that this is a plus. again, will 20% of donald trump supporters turn on donald trump? no, no, they won't. i will tell you, rev, another half a percent in atlanta, another one and a half percent in philadelphia suburbs, another three-quarters of a percent in the detroit suburbs, another half of a percent in the milwaukee suburbs, that's the race. that's the race. it's on margins. and every time he shows the mugshot, he tries to sell the mugshot the mugshot goes viral, one more republican holding on to dear life. >> he doesn't get it because he's always been delusional, he lives in his own world and he's trying to paint a picture of defiance rather than of one who obeys the law and is being prosecuted wrongly, rather come out with the persona i'm being misunderstood or miscast he's going to play defiant which plays right into the hands of his political opponents, i.e. president biden and those that are prosecuting him, because he doesn't understand every time that a mugshot is shown he's saying the independent voters and to moderate republicans, do i really want to vote for that? do i really want my children to feel i identify with that? but he doesn't think in those terms which is why he'll be in many ways the victim of his own bombast, because this is not something to be bombastic about, this is really serious. you have to ask yourself, someone who's that given trying to exploit everything as something sensational, do you really want them back making decisions that could be war and peace and the economy. at some point voters are going to say, wait a minute, i might like the show but i don't want that guy in charge of my life. >> yeah the guardian's hugo lowell and, ken dilanian, thank you. coming up on "morning joe," we're looking ahead to first republican primary debate and what to expect when the eight candidates hit the stage tonight. plus, we'll get brand-new polling that's taking a look at the issues that matter most to republican voters. including tough border measures and fighting a woke agenda. also ahead, 2024 white house hopeful vivek is facing scrutiny over comments he made about september 11th attacks. he said he was misquoted. the audio has been released. doesn't appear he was. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. g "morning " we'll be right back. ♪♪ with fastsigns, create striking custom visuals that inspire pride district-wide. ♪♪ 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can you sleep on such a firm setting? gab, mine is almost the same as yours. almost is just another word for not as good as mine. save 50% on the sleep number® limited edition smart bed. plus, 60-month financing on all smart beds. shop now only at sleep number®. we, the first generation of moms to lose our kids to social media are sick of waiting. for 25 years, there's been no new laws protecting kids online while our children are dying. we can pass the kids online safety act. join us. join us. join us. join us. ♪♪ let's lead the way. ♪♪ i hardly think the race is over. you know, this is not the yogi berra school of political philosophy, it's not getting late early. and so, we're going the let this play out. and i think the big loser in tomorrow night's debate has already been determined is donald trump because he didn't have the guts or respect to show up on that stage and defend his record. >> governor, stop. >> and advocate for the few hur of america. former new jersey governor and 2024 white house hopeful chris christie weighing in on the upcoming debate during an interview with newsmax last night. christie will be one of the eight candidates on the debate stage tonight in milwaukee, front-runner donald trump qualified for the event but will not participate. let's bring in staff writer at the atlantic who will be in milwaukee later today to cover the debate, mark, your new piece out this morning in the atlantic, a parade of listless vessels. borrowing a recent comment by ron desantis. tonight's contest will inevident mri suffer from two basic structural flaws. . main point theoretically of a political debate is to try to persuade voters to support your campaign instead of the other candidates. this is on the whole is not the audience we have here. a large and determine native and still deeply committed portion of the gop electorate, the maga sector, has been more or less a closed box for seven years. the other structural defect involves the likely self-neutering of tonight's pew tif glade yay tors ideally a debate features participants who actually want to win, that generally requires a willingness to attack their biggest adversary. other than kamikaze christie, whom republicans will not almost certainly not nominate, most of the remaining "challengers" -- >> so if i get this right, you're going to go to milwaukee to see a group of self-neutering empty vessels. set it up for us. >> yeah, wouldn't you do the same? i'm going to milwaukee. self-neutering empty vessels. yes, i'm going to milwaukee, there will be a debate tonight. what i'm looking for tonight, everyone says donald trump steals oxygen left. is there any oxygen left in the republican party? people willing to listen an argument or counternarrative about what this party is and what this party is ready to vote for, i'm dubious at this point and i also think that there aren't a lot of voters out there, i guess we'll see tonight how the other candidates try to divide that up. >> so, mark, obviously, ron desantis's months and months now, he started competitive and led in some polls over donald trump but has fallen way back. the desantis campaign is looking at tonight as a chance to sort of relaunch him and introduce himself to a wider audience, what is their hope coming out of tonight? and is there any chance he goes a little harder as he did with the listless vessels comment and saying that donald trump was wrong in georgia and in mar-a-lago documents case, wrong around 2020 election, any chance we hear that from him. >> i mean, there's a chance. that's his only chance, frank lib, ron desantis has an extremely tall order tonight since he's never done this before, first televised presidential debate and he really has to assert himself as the main alternative to donald trump. he's been disappointment again and again in the various efforts he's tried to launch himself in this race and so i'm really curious to see if he's up for the job and serious about it and willing to frontally attack donald trump in a way he hasn't so far. he hasn't shown to this point, you know, whether he wants to win frankly, i mean -- he's given off a sense lately to win a respectable second place. hopefully, you know, make a few friends along the way, but not something he's succeeding at very well. >> is it a possibility that tonight that he being desantis becomes the target of those who want to take him on the culture wars, he has led the battle of trying to eliminate some parts of black history from studies, lgbtq women, even tim scott took issue with him about slavery. will any of the candidates in your judgment take him on that? does he dig in or try to modify the statements he's made that have been horrible to many of those communities? >> yeah, i don't see him backing down, literally his super pac is called never back down, he's really bad -- he doesn't think well on his feet. he's a pretty easy target in his own way and someone like christie who can be a real bulldog in these settings can really, really run circles around him. he's not nimble debater at all. look, i think in absence of donald trump, who i think is going to take a hot of incoming whether he's there or not, desantis is really the biggest target and i think he's got to be ready and i think he's shown again and again he's not terribly good in these situations, there was a moment in his debate in his last governor's race last november, against charlie crist, where he just froze for a moment up on stage, it didn't hurt him because he was ahead in the polls. but it was a bad moment for him. >> absolutely froze. let me ask you quickly about another one person, that's vivek ramaswamy. he's young, gifted, really good at connecting with people, the crowds, good with connecting with reporters, despite all this and a past where he's criticized donald trump after january the 6th, criticized donald trump after denying the election, he's decided to take the path of conspiracy theories, sort of the republican party's rfk jr., talking about conspiracy theories involving vaccines, september 11th. got into scuffle with an atlantic reporter who actually wrote down his words who released the individual, the audio yesterday of him saying we just need to ask questions. like, 9/11. how many federal agents were on those planes? trying to suggest this was a plot by israel to set up saudi arabia, now it's moving to, how many federal agents were actually on those planes and so, the question is, why would somebody who's talented, who can connect, who could see a path forward as an alternative to the general craziness of a segment of the base here, the qanon types, why would he go head-first into that? >> good to know now. >> i think it says an awful lot about the party. >> yeah, i mean, lot of voters there. lot of republican voters there at this point. we talked about how fringy these views are, you know, it's not that fringy, what's interesting about vivek ramaswamy is doing here, 9/11 is pretty much -- has been a conspiracy, you know, theory hotbed but kept out of the political discourse at this point. and, you know, now it seems like, i don't know if it's an issue he wants to talk about but he's willing to go there. my colleague followed him around for a few days, taped him on this. he claimed to be misquoted. john produced the audio and lo and behold he said this stuff. again, this is a party, it's very much in the tlaul, this is the next level thing, and when you have a new and kind of compelling figure on a stage of people who are maybe less so, it's going to have a built-in audience. >> all right, mark, thank you so much. we'll let you leave your camera that you set up. >> find those listless candidates. >> lis lesless vessels. >> listless vessels. molly, let's talk about -- let's talk quickly about a guy who wants to win, young guy gets into politics, he said some rational things in the past, didn't vote until he was 30 years old, critical of donald trump. suddenly getting in the race, reading the room and deciding to start spinning up conspiracy theories about just about everything with the rfk thing, rfk jr. thing, you know what, we need to ask questions. we need to ask questions about this. whether it's conspiracy theories about january 6th or about 9/11 or covid -- i don't think he's got on the moon landing. what he said on the moon landing we have no evidence yet to suggest that it didn't happen. something along those lines. again, focus less on him here but what it says about the room that he's walked into that he thinks he has to do this to get ahead. >> it's not so different from ron desantis, ron desantis decided he need to run to the right of trump and then we have vivek ramaswamy who's running to the crazy of trump, right, he's taking all the sort of qanon conspiracies he's a little bit addicted to it at this point, every time he says something like this, he gets a bump in the polls, he's doing a little bit better, there are so many people in this contest who are polling in the single digits or even less and here he is he sort of rocketed on these conspiracy theories which i think is a really bad indictment about where the gop base is. >> i'm just curious, are people -- i'll watch the debate, but i just wonder, it's going to be interesting, too, the tune-in factor. >> it's our job. >> these characters aren't so interesting. >> it's our job to watch, mika. >> i know. do i have to watch? >> molly jong-fast, thank you very much, molly. coming up, fast politics is the podcast quotes slightly terrifying. the prospects on of a second donald trump term. what foreign officials are saying behind the scenes, that's next on "morning joe". n "mornin. being middle class right now, it's tough making ends meet for sure. republicans in congress say if we just cut taxes even more for the biggest corporations the money will eventually someday trickle trickle down to you. right. joe biden would rather just stop those 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[ cheers ] running up and down that field looks tough. it's a pitch. get way more into what you're into when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. welcome back. 52 past the hour. live look at the white house and a beautiful sunny morning in washington. it's not just defenders of democracy here at home who worry about another trump presidency, there are similar concerns overseas. according to the "the new york times" the prospect of trump in the oval office is almost too upsetting to even think about. for most european governments. that's especially true in germany, a country that was often on the receiving end of trump's diatribes. diplomats are concerned about international alliances, the future of nato and the war in ukraine. if the republican front-runner returns to the white house. joining us now, former cia officer, an msnbc security and intelligence analyst. also with us, msnbc host ayman moledeen. diplomats serving abroad, also nato members, about what would happen if trump were to come back into the white house. >> the "the new york times" article got it right, when i talked to my colleagues across the pond, collective european freakout over a trump two. alliances really matter. since world war ii the united states was a brilliant national security strategy built this partners in europe and asia. let me expand a bit about that, that means intelligence sharing. so if you're a german government officials, if you're in france, or in the united kingdom, what they do when they collect intelligence they shared it with the united states knowing they can trust us. this doesn't apply to other republican candidates, this is just donald trump who can't handle classified information and is seen as pro-russia. if they have critical information on russia why would they share that with us? they're going to turn the spigot off. that worries me as a former official. >> of course, ayman, fascinating the context of war in ukraine, that putin is waiting out the american election to see if donald trump is put back in the white house he'll have a buddy and that support will be rolled back. this is a global question for sure. >> it's global question for sure. if you look at where the republican party is today, you see how far trump has moved the republican party. vivek ramaswamy said we're going to cede territory to russia. i want to break this alliance between you and china. it gives you a sense of where this republican party which once known for standing up to the soviet union, pro-democracy, we're going stand up for human rights, ronald reagan-esque security posture. you got trump who's buddies with vladimir putin, vivek ramaswamy who wants to concede territory and others like kevin mccarthy in the republican party who aren't as tough on russia as they once were. >> as you laid that out, i talked to a lot of leaders in africa, african countries, and russia and china have made a lot of moves in terms of trying to affect africa policy, work closely with african leaders, and the rumblings are that, well, there's not a lot of opposition to russia or china, what is the concern about what we do? talk about the ramifications this has globally when there seems to be this kind of am big youty in terms of u.s. policy. >> we knew what donald trump thought about africa in so much the comments he made about african countries being a-hole countries. to his credit joe biden has been way more engaged with africa, they've had africa leaders summit here in washington. so it gives you a sense of how much the united states under president biden has re-engaged with africa, because to your point we're playing catch-up for the last several years, china has certainly moved in to africa with heavy investments and russia through its proxy organizations, you know, like the wagner group they've exploited that and contributed to destabilization some of these african countries because the u.s. hasn't been present in four years of donald trump. now we're starting to see that kind of change a little bit. the wider questions, countries in the middle east looking at this particular presidency of joe biden and hoping who are the countries who are looking for trump? it's the authoritarians, it's the strongman who wants to welcome back a trump presidency because they knew with a strongman in the united states they had some someone who spoke their language. >> well, and let's talk about that and actually the damage that i still note traveling across the globe that donald trump has caused, more authoritarian nations and more authoritarian leaders will say, you know, trump understood us much better. you looked at what he said to president xi about the concentration camps, saying that was fine. but also, now you're starting to hear, and i didn't hear this ten years ago, people going, we're just tired of the united states lecturing us, it's much easier to deal with china, even germany, we have germany and you look at the german officials being concerned, of course in large part because of how horribly donald trump treated german leaders and as the far-right-wing party there, is really gaining strength in germany and they're looking to donald trump and saying that part of their inspiration comes from donald trump. a guy who of course attacks western democratic leaders. but praises president xi, praises vladimir putin, praises kim jong-un. talks about love letters to kim jong-un, again, this is a very clear message to people in the west who may also -- who do have the same autocratic leanings as donald trump. >> that's right, joe. there's danger in europe the only leader who would kind of welcome a return to trump would be orban in hungry. the united states stands for something in terms of our economic and political values. a problem with trump 2 you're celebrating fascism and a pro-russia sentiment. a foreign intelligence service, profile of donald trump would look like, that's what it would say, certainly not the message that the united states since world war ii has really put forth in the world. growing right-wing movements as you noted all over europe and donald trump 2 presidency would exacerbate that. the world watches us. what would be remarkable is how many europeans will watch the debate tonight. i think a lot of them will. >> thank you for. >> of course, love watching ayman and to mark's point about some watching tonight, i think a lot more tonight are going to be watching donald trump's fourth indictment tomorrow. >> former president donald trump is expected to surrender to the fulton county jail tomorrow evening, trump reportly had his lawyers negotiate for him to turn himself in during primetime television hours. trump wanted to maximize television ratings to his benefit for his surrender to authorities in atlanta. and could extend the coverage of the proceedings by speaking afterwards in front of cameras and reporters. the booking process in fulton county typically inclundz a mugshot, fingerprinting and taking height and weight measurements. . the guardian has reported that trump and his lawyers have asked the secret service to get him out of taking a mugshot. as we await trump's surrender, the other 18 co-defendants have begun to turn themselves in. early this morning, david shafer and kathy latham surrendered to authorities. yesterday, the alleged architect of the plot, attorney john eastman, was also pookd in fulton county. his lawyers said it took around an hour and half to go through for the process. also booked yesterday was atlanta bondsman hall, his bond was set at $10,000. several others are also expected to surrender today including former trump campaign senior legal adviser jenna ellis. her bond will be set at $100,000. >> willie, just looking at this case in georgia, it's fascinating just the context of how it's framed, in states republican leaders going they're going county chairs, bail bondsmen, they're going after the little people. you won't get any of that in georgia for the georgia republican party because the head of the georgia republican party the governor of the state of georgia, came out after the election, came out after donald trump said he was going to hold a press conference talking about how corrupt georgia elections were, came out very strong pushback against donald trump, they're telling the truth about all the investigations they've already had to show georgia's election was clean and then of course you got the secretary of state who actually has the receipt that's causing donald trump the biggest problem the recording he where he told donald trump he wasn't going to steal the election for him. all of this happens framed around a republican party that's already called b.s. on this. so you have a group of defendants that are essentially there on their own with donald trump. with fraudulent electors scheme that they plotted. you're not going to hear the background chorus from state leaders defending them. >> to their credit, they have from beginning, governor kemp, lieutenant governor and attorney general brad rafensburger who presented that early on. he knew exactly what was going to happen and that was donald trump was going to try to hustle him for nearly 12,000 votes and flip the election. he would don't that. that list of people posting bonds and 18 co-defendants, these people went along for the ride, enjoyed a moment in the spotlight thought they were participating in something that would bring them power, perhaps fame and wealth. they're twisting in the wind. they're looking up and saying, mr. trump, we did these things, can we get help with the legal bills? rudy giuliani has more than $3 million in legal bills, donald trump leaving him high and dry. asking him an alleged billionaire to pay his legal bills, so the small donors the supporters are paying for donald trump's bills, he now at this moment of crisis for so many people who supported him for a long time, now leaving them twisting in the wind. >> joining the conversation, we have mike barnicle is with and donny duduetsche. rudy giuliani is planning to go to atlanta today trying to secure counsel, he's asked a lot of different people to represent him including former nypd commissioner bernie kerik, longtime friends and others, they're trying to help him find an atlanta-based attorney, as willie said he's got tons of legal bills, the question is, when will he surrender? and then there's former trump chief of staff mark meadows who's racing against the clock to prevent his arrest in georgia, he filed an emergency request to delay his surrender until a hearing is held whether his case will be moved to federal court. meadows argues that his role in trump administration should make him immune from state-level charges. yesterday, district attorney fani willis rejected meadows' motion, writing in an e-mail, i'm not granting any extensions. i gave two weeks for people to surrender themselves to the court. your client is no different than any other criminal defendant in this jurisdiction. >> david french, your thoughts about everything that's unfolding not only in atlanta but also with the witness that's now flipping against donald trump in the docs case. >> you know, one thing that's interesting about having all of these people involved, when you have 19 defendants not all of them can be prominent enough to be sort of the martyrs they need to be to get that independent funding and the gofundmes and the outside fund-raising they need to provide for their own defense. the problem they have here is trump is sucking up all of the oxygen to raise money. they need that money. the sheer number of defendants right now i think is going to actually start bearing down upon trump. some of them might flip. we don't know. the sheer number of defendants is going to be a factor here. >> and mike, you look at that board, these are people who follow donald trump trump, follow the lie, whether they thought they were doing it for power or money, now they find themselves actually, well, find themselves in legal trouble for trying to steal an american election. again, i do wonder, especially for the ones who went to law school, how did they think they were going to get away with this in. >> because they were living in the era of a deluded president of the united states who told them this was the thing to do in national interest that the election was stolen and whether they believed it or not they went along with it because heed a a little power and they thought they could obtain some of that power viecariously through him. there are two elements to this story, one, is the ppd ppd of evidence, also by jack smith in the january 6th investigation, the mar-a-lago investigation, the preponderance of everyday, that's one side of the story, the other side of the story are the defendants. all of those, the 19 who have been indicted, some of them not named until the names became public, it's just a matter of time before they come to the reality, whether their family members or whether the headlines or just the daily stories about it, they come to the reality that they are working on behalf and have devoted a portion of their lives on behalf to man who simply does not care about their welfare or heel jeopardy and they will flip. we've seen evidence of one flipping just yesterday. it will happen. it will happen. because you're not going to jail for someone who doesn't care about you. >> to that point, donny, you're heard jenna ellis, the attorney who's come out and supported ron desantis, mr. trump, i thought we were all of this together, why aren't you giving some of this money to pay our legal bills. you participated in an attempted coupe against the united states government, that bill was going to come due at some point, here we are. >> yeah, well, the whiff of power can make people do strange things. i want focus on mugshot today, that's a big deal, that's a big deal, that will be donald trump's image throughout history, that one photograph will be one of the important photographers in the history of this country and we're a visual world, if you're creating an ad or writing a story you just need to show that image you don't have to tell any other story, an ex-president with a mugshot. the outcome of the case is an important thing. but that visual that will stand through time, once again if i want to do anything against donald trump, creating an ad that's the image i use. donald trump is so concerned with his appearance, his image, his legacy, this will be something that will stick with him in deepest, deepest gut. >> he's busy reporting to georgia to get that mugshot. tonight he won't be in milwaukee getting his chance to stand on stage, declined the opportunity to participate in debate. darsha burns is there. what should we expect tonight? >> reporter: another major moment for the republican party that's going to be playing out under the shadow of former president trump he has in fact forced that by counterprogramming the event with a pre-record interview with former fox news host tucker carlson that we're expecting will play out on the platform x around the same time, he'll be turning himself in tomorrow in atlanta. and the host of the event are going to be asking the candidates about mr. trump. so he's going to loom large over the event. the flip side, though, is, can these candidates with florida governor ron desantis and vivek ramaswamy sharing the center, likely to take the most arrows tonight, can they potentially show voters what a post-trump world might look like? could they show for example florida governor who will be the front-runner on that stage tonight, could he show what a front-runner not named donald trump look like. after several staggering slumping poll numbers, some stumbles on the campaign trail is sort of do no harm approach, he's likely to get the most attacks. vivek ramaswamy having a moment, he'll get some arrows as well but he has an opportunity to raise that name i.d. the others on the stage looking for opportunities to have some of those viral moments. so what is this world going to look like and how are they going to contrast themselves with the former president? i've been out on the campaign trail and these folks have struggled to find their footing without alien ating the base. some indirect attacks, subtle jabs, tonight they'll have to face that head-on, you better bet they're going to get some very direct questions and right now they're all huddled in the prep right now, figuring out how they're going to handle this and try to crawl out from under that shadow, willie. >> we'll be watching. darsha thanks so much. the dunk contests in the late '80s where michael jordon wasn't there i like spud webb. >> spud webb finally makes it to "morning joe." >> took 16 years. who has the most to lose tonight in. >> chris christie is in an amazing position, he gets to prosecute not only donald trump but every one of these people. if he doesn't shine tonight, the fact that the trump isn't there, let him undress every other candidate. every time a candidate does a protection -- whatever they say, mumble, they look like fools. chris christie will look like a strong gladiator. it should be his night. >> let's take several steps back and just look at what we're going to see with this republican party over the next couple of days. you've got a debate that represents candidates that may have, you know, combined 30, 40, 45% of the vote, you've got donald trump who may have anywhere 50% to 60% of the vote but you have an iowa poll that says a majority of republicans are ready to move on. and then row got the trump people who are, you know, a lot of them are still hard-core supporters, they're behind him and they're never going to leave. you got that split which is really bad news for any political party. i don't think we focus on that enough on this show and in the media, anywhere, but this is a party that's split in half and then you look at fox news, which is has really been the driven of the conservative message since 1996. 1997 for the most part. you got a split there, you got the trump campaign attacking fox news. you got fox news angry, talked to many people in there very angry at donald trump. you have him going to tucker carlson deliberately to rub fox news's nose in it and this is donald trump has divided the republican party for a very long time, but i remember roger ailes when trump first got in the race, just -- this is a guy that managed everything on the conservative right. roger pulling his hair out trying to figure out exactly how to work this trump thing. he never figured it out. the republicans still haven't figured it out. fox news hasn't figured it out. forgive me for going on so long here, you've grown up in the same culture i've grown up where fox news is on every television, where you go to church and everybody's saying the same thing, everybody's on the same side, whether it's bob dole or whether it's, you know, george w. bush, or whether mccain or romney, everybody lined up, they get in line, the goal to beat the democrats. i just don't -- i don't think we're paying enough attention to just how divided this party, how divided the media ecosystem is, how everything is divided on the right because of donald trump. >> it's divided in a way that's particularly frustrating for the trump opponents because of this very simple reason -- all of the normal rules of politics apply to his opponents. none apply to donald trump. his opponents could have a gaffe at the debate and they'll crash and burn. trump can say something wild and crazy that would end any other campaign in the country and he continues to soar on, and joe, you know in particular the south, i grew up in the south, i'm from the south, you also know that when fol next the south get their pride up, get their back up, the sense that someone is telling them what to do they don't want to comply, a lot of these indictments, this is the establishment telling us what to do and they're just not going to back down. >> completely agree, especially when you look at where the news is coming from and, yeah, i agree with you. but it leads to what i said a couple days ago when i looked at vaughn hillyard talking to some voters in iowa about the reverse bradley effect, based on conversations with friends and family, david, some of these people are starting to slowly back away, they don't want to tell people in the church pews they've been like they've been lashing out at enemies of the state, they've been lashing out at the nancy pelosis of the world, aocs of the world. the last thing they want to say is, well, maybe the media was right about this guy, so they're not going to turn like after sermon and go, you know, i'm going to have to leave trump, i can't do this anymore. but i know that in private conversations with people who have voted for trump in '16 and '20 i'm hearing that awful lot. >> i think you're exactly right, that there are people who are wanting to back away, here's catch-22, the catch-22 if you indict trump he uses that and said look at what they they're doing. look at how i intimidated them. look at how i prevailed. so there's always this way that when you have a completely truth-free, completely reason-free, logic-free candidate there's always going to be a way to spin, lie and exaggerate, you've got this situation where there's never an easy offramp for anybody. an indictment's not an off-ramp. no indictment's not an off-ramp. that's a reality that we're facing right now. >> all right, david french, thank you so much. mike, it's just kind of elemental, it's math, abraham lincoln talked about it a house divided against itself can't stand, this is a divided house and again, in a divided country a divided house within the republican party doesn't have to be all-out civil war that people are, you know, a political civil war, it's 1% here, 2% there, 5% deciding to stay home and not vote in 2024. a lot of concerns, the republicans would be having a lot of concerns about donald trump, once again, leading them to defeat. >> their concerns are largely silent. in terps of politicians, republican politicians, who are familiar to the general public, i mean they say very little to condemn donald trump. donald trump continues to play victimization politics. i'm a victim. you're a victim. the reason you didn't get a pay raise or a job promotion you were victimized by your employee. i've been victimized by the legal system. that's where trump is. you keep wondering, or at least i do, what finally provokes america to wake up? the mugshot, you know, face front, profile shot, intake number under his picture, will he snarl at the mugshot, will he smile during the mugshot? will it be some symbol like that we don't think will measure in people's reaction? something has to happen because this country is right on the edge of something really horrific, you can just sense it. you can just sense it. >> you know, i sense that they slowly walk away, donny, it's not like -- let's take to what you know about like marketing it's not a bud light moment, someone puts up a instagram, everyone freaks out, kid rock shooting bud light beer cans while he's still drink and selling at his restaurants. ain't that america for you and me. i think it's far more subtle for us. like the department store downtown that everybody went to in 1975. by 1981 they're going to the malls. 1986, specialty shops that are lined up on main street, you know, by the 1990s they're going to walmart and target and they're going to other these places and then amazon. then it's death by a thousand cuts. i think we're seeing that with donald trump, bit by bit, republicans slowly moving away from him and you add on top of that the accelerator, the accelerator of roe v. wade being overturned and suddenly maybe that half of a percent is 1% in the atlanta suburbs or 2% in the thereabout suburbs. 4% in the philly suburbs. maybe it's 5 percent in the detroit suburbs. whatever that number is itting up the market share, it ain't good. >> we don't need an avalanche and what you've been saying is what's happening and will continue to happen. i have a focus group, mostly i'm surrounded by mostly real anti-trumpers and democrats. there are a group of eight guys i have the suburbs on long island who are republicans voting for trump. i had dinner with them on saturday, literally every one of them said i can't do it. bring up biden. i worry about third-party candidate because they need to go somewhere. they're off of trump. you look foolish at this point if you're a pat of -- part of a polite society. >> willie, not really good with geography. >> oh, no. >> is south jmpb ampton now called the suburbs of -- >> no. >> are you and willie, is donny easthampton now? >> so many of them. >> bridgehampton. joe, when are you and mika coming out? >> i'm not a hamptons guy. >> you want to go. >> if you want to get barnicle out and some others, we'll have one of your clambakes. >> we'll make it happen. >> there you go. >> i was talking about the north shore of long island. >> mike, you stay right where you are. and donny we'll see you back in our fourth hour for another edition -- >> he'll helicopter out to easthampton. >> he is. >> have a late breakfast. i have a mimosa. he'll helicopter back. >> that's how long our show is. think about it. still ahead on "morning joe" some conservative pundits are criticizing president biden's visit to hawaii. but the reaction from maui residents appears to be much different. we'll get to that story. plus, our next guest is taking a look at u.s. life expectancy and what it says about the state of america today. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. we'll be right back. being middle class right now, it's tough making ends meet for sure. republicans in congress say if we just cut taxes even more for the 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future." david, good morning. there's a chart out about life expectancy. what's causing it? >> i agree that was a fantastic jacket that president reagan had. i put it up on twitter yesterday, and there's lot going on in chart. life expectancy in the united states to every other rich country in the world, covid at the end, many things going on. i would encourage people to focus on in 1960, 1908 life ek expectancy looks quite typical. between 1980 and 2010 the united states falls to having the worst life expectancy. every country in western europe and our neighbor to north, canada. symbolic of the biggest problems in our country and why so many americans feel so frustrated in so many different ways. in some basic ways our society and our economy just isn't working for most people. >> so, but, david, any measurements behind the staggering numbers that now the united states, you know, is dropping in terms of life expectancy, is there more stress living in the united states? is there more crushed expectations living in the united states? anything like that? any anecdotal evidence. >> the united states is obviously a big country and a very diverse country and if you look at life expctancy by economic class and college graduates, those trends still look pretty good, more like the trends in other rich countries. . the real problem is life expectancy among working class people, among people without a four-year degree, and to me the fact that those trends have happened at the same time where we have had absolutely soaring economic inequality. those trends are connected to each other and it's really part of this widening class divide in which some basics ways american society and quiet frankly both political parties have abandoned the working class in some crucial ways. >> so, you know, david when i saw your chart yesterday, obviously it's shocking, i mean it's depressing to see the united states drop as you said even, you know, 2010, but that sharp line down, i looked at the sharp line and my initial reaction following press reports on this and following the established sort of narrative in the u.s., oh, my gosh, i wonder if those numbers are, you know, people in communities that support donald trump, the america left behind, the de-industrialization, the white works class, we heard those headlines, but you dig into the numbers that's just not the case. this is harvard university study on this, disparities in life expectancies some groupts experienced much bigger drops over the last two years than others. 4.6 for american native population. 4.2% for hispanics. 4.0% for black americans. 2.4 for white americans. 2.1 for asian americans. and in fact, as you said, and this is critical, we shouldn't be shocked when you have cuts in health care, when you have medicaid cuts, i mean, you look at the social determine nance of health, it is, do people have health insurance? do they have access to health care? do they have access to wellness? the communities that are dying sooner now, whose life expectancies are dropping that communities that don't. it's that simple. we're not investing in the health care of our truly disadvantaged americans. >> that's exactly right. i that's aly important point. we're obsessed with race in the country and we're a country with such a horrible history of racism. but this is fundamentally a class story more than a race story and it's not a story about the white working class it's a story about the black working class and the latino working class. the first half of my book is heroic story how the u.s. bit an economy that benefited the matszs. we were a country with terrible history. the income gap between whites and blacks was narrowing in those years. what this really a story of is, when i say we have abandoned the working chess in country, sometimes they use that as a symbol of white working class i mean across races, what this society has done, it's one of these cases in which the key differences here are not so much about race, they're ones of class and that disproportionately affects people of color because of the income gaps that we have. >> just so you know, mika, also from harvard study covid-19, why is life expectancy falling in the united states, covid-19, drug overdoses and accidental injuries accounted for two-thirds in decline of life expectancy. >> david, thank you very much. his new book "ours was the shining future, the story of the american dream," is out on october 24th and david, i'm sure we'll have you back again to talk about this topic coming up right here on "morning joe," one word viewers are likely to hear on tonight's republican presidential debate stage. >> maybe health care. >> no. come on, you got it. >> defense. >> no. >> national defense. >> no. >> crime. >> nope. >> liking crime in the cities. >> not guns, either. not abortion. woke is the word. we'll have a look at the or gin of the term and how it's been turned into rallying cry for the right. >> how america is bored by it. >> "morning joe" will be right back. right back ♪ birds flyin' high, you know how i feel. ♪ ♪ breeze driftin' on... ♪ ♪ ...by, you know how i feel. ♪ if you're tired of staring down your copd,... ♪ it's a new dawn, ♪ ♪ it's a new day... ♪ ...stop settling. ♪ ...and i'm feelin' good. ♪ start a new day with trelegy. no once-daily copd medicine has the power to treat copd in as many ways as trelegy. with three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy makes breathing easier for a full 24 hours, improves lung function, and helps prevent future flare-ups. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. take a stand, and start a new day 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about rinvoq. learn how abbvie can help you save. because it's a war on truth. i think we have no choice but to wage a war on woke. >> from day one we're going to rip the politics out of the military, we're going to end the woke agenda. woke is ultimately a assault on the truth, we made florida the state where woke goes to died and as president i'll fight the woke in corporations n schools, in the halls of congress, we will never, ever surrender to the woke mob. >> that's 2024 republican presidential candidate florida governor ron desantis and his stop woke rally cry, the centerpiece of his campaign, it'sen issue a top focus for some republicans at least many iowa voters. a recent poll, 65% of likely iowa republican caucus goers say fighting the left's woke agenda would make them more likely support a candidate. what does that mean exactly? what does woke mean? >> good morning. i know everyone loves a good game of debate bin go, you hear a certain word, you take a shot or a sip of your beverage of choice. i want to add a word for tonight's debate, woke, people m have heard it in the mouths of ron desantis, marjorie taylor greene and donald trump. the roots of the word right now, you probably heard it. >> woke. >> wokism. >> over and over. >> woke beliefs in policies. >> and over again. woke has been charged a political catch-all phrase, used as a battering ram and battle cry and to many a slur. >> almost another way of saying black, the n-word. >> they weaponized the civil rights movement and said it was a communist movement. >> reporter: before it was -- woke was about black empowerment. when jim crow had its grip on america, danger and violence was a constant threat so black folks had to keep their eyes open literally and figuratively. they had to stay woke. what's the definition of woke in. >> to be awake to what's happening around you. >> reporter: the roots of woke run deep. to the heart of black america's fight for equality. in the 1930s, bluesman, ledbetter protested the song for a up gro of black teens falsely accused in alabama of raping two white women. >> i advise everybody be a little careful. >> since then it has become part of cultural lexicon. >> by the late '08s woke was showing up in black art. later given new electricity by erica baydu after the killings of trayvon martin. woke crossed from black culture to the main stream following the murder of george floyd. >> no one was talking about woke as we have had in the last two years. i think there was a lot of terror in seeing what was happening in 2020, seeing the multiracial, multiethnic coalitions of people who really rallied around understanding more about anti-blackness. >> reporter: today, woke has become an ideological lightning rod, a warhead the latest cultural wars. >> football particularly as we see the gop, a mass message went out. >> they mean it as a slur, for the people who are for these policies. i want my children to learn about the history of this country and not just the white history of this country. that's not a slur to me. if you call it woke or whatever it call you i'm proud of representing those things and i want them in policy. >> so, woke has become this phrase that means everything and nothing at all but for many people in the community grew up stay woke to keep your eyes open to some of the forces that have been oppressive to black folks in the country it's concerning. this word has been weaponized against the very community who created it in first place. >> it was extraordinary -- as you say this has become a catch-all, we hear it around bud light, this idea of woke-ism, what do you think it means to trump supporters, to a republican voters who have latched on to this idea. >> really who controls the narrative, for many people who are afraid of changes in america, we had the conversation all the time, america is changing, it's getting more black, the accents are changing, it's scary for a loft people. but to use this as a battering ram and a rallying crew i we have to foit these forces, this wokeness, many people have hear heard that term used in any other context. >> it's fascinating what we are seeing in the republican party, and even donald trump said i don't know what it means, i am tired of talking about it, and that means he's a couple steps ahead. i heard months ago it was woke this and woke that, and crt was a catch-all to everything, and in the times, they were talking about woke-ism. if you don't want to drink bud light, don't, and if you don't want to go to disney, don't go to disney, but i don't want the government to declare a woke-war on businesses. there's an exhaustion of the word being misused and over used. >> this takes the place of actual real political debate, and while people are hungry and struggling to get jobs, they are tired of this. people are fed up because you can see through it. it's cute and silly and these great punch lines, and the republic wants solutions and they are not getting it with the anti-woke agenda. still aheada key witness in the classified documents case flips after dismissing his trump-funded lawyer. we're back in a moment. i need it cool at night. you trying to ice me out of the bed? baby, only on game nights. you know you are retired right? am i? ya! save 50% on the sleep number® limited edition smart bed. plus, 60-month financing on all smart beds. shop now only at sleep number®. ♪ with wet amd, sometimes i worry my world is getting smaller because of my sight. but now, i can open up my world with vabysmo. vabysmo is the first fda-approved treatment for people with wet amd that improves vision and delivers a chance for up to 4 months between treatments. which means doing more of what i love. ♪ vabysmo is the only treatment designed to block 2 causes of wet amd. vabysmo is an eye injection. don't take it if you have an infection or active swelling in or around your eye, or are allergic to it or any of its ingredients. treatments like vabysmo can cause eye infection or retinal detachment. vabysmo may cause a temporary increase in eye pressure after receiving the injection. although uncommon, there is a potential risk of heart attack or stroke associated with blood clots. open up your world! a chance for up to 4 months between treatments with vabysmo. ask your doctor. power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley. the first time you made a sale online with godaddy was also the first time you heard of a town named dinosaur, colorado. we just got an order from dinosaur, colorado. start an easy to build, powerful website for free with a partner that always puts you first. start for free at godaddy.com it's time now for a look at the morning papers. we begin in georgia where "the atlanta journal constitution" reports, lawmakers say willis' indictment against trump is a goal to become some sort of leftist celebrity. >> i need to talk to their republican governor and republican secretary of state that agree with her and not them. >> they are planning to go after them with a new state law with a commission to sanction prosecutors. they will ask the commission to investigate willis once it's appointed in october. >> investigating the investigators. georgia republicans. >> doesn't work. >> never have and never will. >> the state supreme court ruled against the state police regarding the social media monitoring policy, and it requires state troopers publicly disclose how they monitor users social media feeds. the supreme court decision ends a six-year legal battle. in michigan, the chronicle. wildfires amid a mixture of particles that could be neuro toxic than particles from elsewhere. and then trump surrendering tomorrow, and what his lawyers negotiated with d.a., gerri willi -- fani willis. morning joe will be right back. k no fingersticks needed. manage your diabetes with more confidence. freestyle libre 2. try it for free at freestylelibre.us ♪♪ with fastsigns, signage that gets you noticed turns hot lots into homes. ♪♪ fastsigns. make your statement. being middle class right now, it's tough making ends meet for sure. republicans in congress say if we just cut taxes even more for the biggest corporations the money will eventually someday trickle trickle down to you. right. joe biden would rather just stop those corporations from charging so damn much. capping the cost of drugs like insulin. cracking down on surprise medical bills and all those crazy junk fees. there's more work to do. tell the president to keep lowering costs for middle class families. if you have heart disease and are on a statin, lowering cholesterol can be hard. diets and exercise add to the struggle. today, it's possible to go from struggle to cholesterol success with leqvio. with a statin, leqvio is proven to lower bad 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with -- >> this is crazy. you know, willie, we are looking at the headlines from the local papers. now, if you were following right-wing media yesterday, and even if you weren't, a lot of it was reaching out and pulling you into your smart phones. you would think everybody in maui was angry with joe biden, and that joe biden was having a siesta -- i know this will shock you, but it was all garbage. you look at the local newspapers and you look at the local reports and you listen to the local people, and these are not democratic operatives. it was "the maui newspaper," and everybody in the newspapers glowing, thanking the president for being there, he and jill were so empathetic and giving, and they gave them hope. again, just read the papers. it's the same thing with this joe biden is sleeping deal. you actually look at the longer video, and he coughs, he bows his head like the woman next to him, and he takes like four deep breaths, like he's trying to catch his breath. we don't know why. maybe he was moved? and then he's nodding. he looks up, and yet the screaming headlines is biden is sleeping, he coughs, and look at this, he goes down, and he's been traveling a lot. he takes one, two, catching his breath. by the way, the lady next to him several times, her head bowed too, and he raises his head. oh, my god, it's the end of the world as we know it. the only thing, willie, the only thing that we can thank god for is that joe biden was not wearing a tan suit, because then it would have been a total meltdown on far right. the people of maui -- again, read the local coverage. don't listen to the lies on trump outlets, but read the local coverage, all incredibly positive. >> wearing a tan suit or riding a bicycle, that could have been big news as well. if you are watching this morning and never heard of it, it's because you live in the sane world. watch the video and listen to the video, what is going on. they are talking about all the people that died. at least more than 800 missing in maui, and he bowed that head in some kind of reflection with other people there. if this is supposed to be the what about-ism with donald trump, and if this is supposed to be the what about-ism, yeah, that stuff is going on, but look at this, joe biden bowed his head for 20 seconds at a ceremony in hawaii, and that's pretty weak sauce if that's what you are looking at. >> they cut clips short, and it's about what about-ism, yes. donald trump may have tried to unleashed an angry mob to beat capitol hill cops and may have stolen nuclear secrets, but look at joe biden, he's so old because he bowed his head. you know, we have all been to ceremonies where we are moved. i would guess a guy who has actually lost three family members, close family members, you know, we have seen him get emotional before. my god, again, the fact that this is not about that, this is about the reaction where, like you said, mika, it's this what about-ism, and it's hunter biden's laptop, it's hunter biden, and it's joe biden falls asleep, and joe biden falls off of a bicycle. it's all so shallow and all so stupid. >> grasping. >> it's all they have. i will add to your list, many people have gone to jail for many, many years and are bankrupted and ruined because they followed the lead of donald trump. >> following donald trump and the lies of these channels. >> the hosts know what they are saying, and they are lies. i am just saying, we have learned there are consequences to lies. you can only lie to people so many times before they catch on and they know you are lying. again, this not only infects the republican party and undermines trump in the long run, which it will, it makes the swing voters and independent voters and the moderate republicans all say i am not voting for that guy and not voting for that party, even if it means they stay home. again, this is not the long play. this is just short, stupid stuff that always backfires against them. >> the facts and the allegations in all of these indictments including the one we are focussed on today in georgia, and by the way, we will talk in just a secretary going back to the mar-a-lago case, and the facts are so damning that you have to talk about somebody else, you have to talk about joe biden sleeping or hunter biden, and if hunter biden committed a crime, he should be prosecuted and go to jail. that's true. if you read these indictments, they are so damning to donald trump and the people around him, i would want to change the subject, too, if he were my guy. >> absolutely. along with joe, willie and me, we have the president of the national action network and host of msnbc's "politic nation," and -- this is the kind of stuff right-wing networks would want to ignore. a key witness against former president donald trump and his two codefendants retracted -- >> he's flipped against the president. >> he has providing incriminating information about the defendants after switching lawyers. a new court filing by special counseling jack smith's office reveals that tavares who served as the director of information technology at mar-a-lago changed his testimony about efforts to delete security camera video at the club last month. >> to do what? delete? delete security footage that the justice department actually -- >> right, all this came out after he switched his lawyer to a public defender. he was initially represented by stanley woodward, who also represents walt nauta and several other trump allies, and whose fees were paying paid by the save america pac. but they don't pay giuliani's fees. yesterday's filings reveals immediately after receiving new counsel, trump employee 4 identified tavares reversed his testimony. additionally, the filing reveals prosecutors plan to call tavares as a witness at trial. >> that's not good for them. >> attorney stanley woodward declined to comment to nbc news. >> who would have ever believed that donald trump would be guilty of obstructing justice other than everyone? you go back and you look at the mueller investigation, and he talks about -- in the mueller investigation, he talks about the multiple acts of obstruction of justice of donald trump, but because he was president they were not going to prosecute it. the multiple acts of the obstruction of donald trump. you look at the documents case, the fbi and doj, they ask for the information. trump and his lawyers lied. they obstruct justice. this is what barr says is what is going to end up getting trump, what makes this a slam dunk of a case. then we have this fascinating, and may i say, illegally explosive reality of this obstruction inside of the obstruction. that's donald trump ordering his workers to delete the security footage that the doj has subpoenaed, and now we have got somebody who flipped because he must have somebody who loves him in his life saying are you really going to jail for this guy, because he would not go to jail for you? >> and you still probably will. >> yeah, and it's incredible stuff. we saw this in the first season of the drama with cassidy hutchison, where she changed lawyers and decided she wanted to testify. trump is -- you know, since he has started running for president, we have seen him twice impeached, four indictments plus the superseding. this is what he does, and then conservative media and fox news say what about joe biden and hunter biden? we saw this in 2015 with what about hillary clinton? remember hillary clinton was so sick and that's why she was unelectable. they pick a trope and keep going with it. >> nbc news justice and news correspondent, ken delanen. let's talk about trump number 4, tavares. how significant is it that he flipped and will testify to the fact that, yes, there was a request made from the top to delete the video from the servers at mar-a-lago? >> it's pretty significant because, you know, this obstruction that is described in the indictment is coming back out now because stanley woodward currently represents the mar-a-lago guy that walt nauta is stumping around in the bushes with, and if he let that false statement stand, he could not be a client, and the testimony incriminates each other. they are all part of a joint defense agreement, and i think it will cause a problem for trump's legal team as they get in the mar-a-lago case. >> can you expect to see more of this, a low-level employee at mar-a-lago saying, wait, i was told to say these things to protect my boss, donald trump, at mar-a-lago, but i am not going to jail for this and lie for donald trump? >> here's the thing, willie. walt nauta and carlos, they are now stuck in a situation where they have been charged. according to the documents, dual sraeura lied to the jury, and that's a lie. he changed his story, and that became the basis for the superseding indictment. this happened in july. then we saw the superseding indictment which made the most significant allegations of obstruction of justice in the whole affair, which, as you said, it was donald trump conspiring with his employees allegedly to destroy surveillance, and nixon didn't even do that. and another lawyer named john irving, who is also funded by the trump operation, both men presumably would be highly sought after witnesses by the special counsel because they are the ones, according to the superseding indictment, that actually spoke with donald trump and could testify that trump ordered the destruction of the video, and tavares can't do that, he's the i.t. director and he spoke to the other two guys. jack smith would like to get their testimony, and presumably there would be a deal on the table, but now they are in a bit of a bind because they already charged them with lying to investigators. if they brought them before a trial, a jury, as witnesses they would have to acknowledge they lied and clear all that up before they get it under cross-examination, but to answer your question, absolutely there's more avenues for this to happen. it's like a mob movie when you have the lawyers all being paid for by donald trump, and representing witnesses and suddenly when one gets a different lawyer they utterly change their story and remember things they didn't remember before. that's where we are, and i think we may well see more of this. >> that's the classified documents case, which is clearly, if it's possible getting more serious and ominous for the former president. now let's move to fulton county, where former president trump is expected to surrender at the fulton county jail tomorrow evening. trump had his lawyers negotiate for him to turn himself in during primetime hours, and he wanted to extend the coverage of the proceedings by speaking afterwards in front of cameras and reporters. this is trump's fourth indictment in as many months. in each he worked to turn appearances into spectacles in an effort to discredit the indictments. in fulton county he's one of 19 codefendants charged in a sprawling election interference investigation. the booking process in fulton county typically includes a mugshot, fingerprinting and taking height and weight measurements. "the guardian" reports trump asked his lawyers and the secret service to get him out of taking a mugshot. in previous cases he did not have to take one, but the fulton county sheriff has stated the former president will be treated like any other defendant. >> so rev, you have known this guy for a very long time. his made-for-tv -- made-for-tv reality show, it rolls into the law and order part of the television series, and now he's demanding primetime coverage of his fourth indictment. most would want to sneak in the back, and most would want to hide from the photographers. no, not this president. he's running straight into the sunlight here, and he wants everybody to see him indicted for the fourth time. >> well, for those of us who have known donald trump for 35, 40 years, fighting him and him trying to also socialize, this is donald trump. this is who he is. showman. he is trying to at all levels become the point of attention. certainly he did not want to be indicted, but if i am going to be indicted and surrender, i will make eight spectacle. for those that would dare compete with me and have a debate about substantive issues, i will overshadow that with a dramatic surrender and then make a speech, and if he were black he would have been the don king. when you see people begin to flip on you, and you see people beginning to get their own lawyers, you will see the show doesn't end with applause, and it could end with some of those cuffs that you go through during your surrender, and it could be more permanent. the most embarrassing thing for him is if they release his weight when he weighs in on thursday. there's always a weigh in, donald, before there's a fight. >> because of his vanity, it would be on his mind. we say that half kidding that he's worried about that. hugo, what is it going to look like for -- this is not obviously a regular defendant, this is the former president of the united states and a showman, as the rev said, and what will it looks like tomorrow night when this plays out? >> his aides will be in milwaukee, and when they are done they will fly to newark and fly to atlanta, and then he will motorcade from the airport to the atlanta jail, the crumbling facility. once he is does -- done, we are not sure what he will do. he could go back and do some sort of press conference at the airport, it's not clear. fundamentally what is happening here is what has happened in each of his previous surrenders and arraignments, and this is a moment of indignity for him, and it's a counter attack. he doesn't have many moves. when he feels like he's backed into a corner, this is the counter attack and i will cover up the embarrassment and say i am a martyr and play to the cameras. >> i am curious, ken, if you have information of why this was set up this way. obviously trump wants to turn it into a spectacle. is it possible the other coconspirators or codefendants need to be processed during the day, and they were doing trump after-hours to try and control the situation? i am just wondering why he would get this opportunity to have a primetime moment? it seems the officials in fulton county played by the book. mark meadows is asking for more time. no, you can't have more time. we do things by the book. yet, this seems different. any information on that? >> no, mika. the jail officials have made clear they run a 24/7 operation over there. i think it's a matter of scheduling, and they were open to doing it at any particular time. i think it's deeply significant, though, unlike in every other booking like we have seen with donald trump, it's very clear these guys are affording him no special breaks in terms of the mugshot. from all accounts, they will take a mugshot. we have already seen mugshots from codefendants published and they are not flattering, and in the marshal's system, they will use an existing photo for the booking photo and they spared him some of the other indignities of the booking process. you may have seen one of the architects of the false selector plan interviewed by ali vitali, and he leaned into the idea that the election was stolen. what else could he say? that's his defense, gila skwreut maly thought that. up next, we will read the latest in "the atlantic," when morning joe comes right back. >> woman: why did we choose safelite? we were loading our suv when... crack! safelite came right to us, and we could see exactly when they'd arrive with a replacement we could trust. that's service the way we want it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ i'm your overly competitive brother. check. psych! and i'm about to steal this game from you just like i stole kelly carter in high school. you got no game dude, that's a foul! and now you're ready to settle the score. game over. and if you don't have the right home insurance coverage, well, you could end up paying for all this yourself. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, yeah, like me. thanks, bro. take a lap, rookie. real mature. he snores like an angry rhino. you've never heard an angry rhino. take a lap, rookie. baby i hear one every night. every night. okay. i'll work on that. save 50% on the sleep number® limited edition smart bed. plus, 60-month financing on all smart beds. shop now only at sleep number®. rsv is in for a surprise. meet arexvy. 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( ♪♪ ) arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects are injection site pain, fatigue, muscle pain, headache, and joint pain. cabe serious. the most common side effects are injection site pain, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about arexvy today. rsv? make it arexvy. over. this is not the yogi berra school of political philosophy. we will let this play out. i think the big loser at tomorrow night's debate has been determined is trump because he didn't have the guts or respect to show up on the state and defend his record and advocate for the future of america. >> former new jersey governor and 2024 white house hopeful chris christie weighing in on a debate with newsmax last night. let's bring in the staff writer at "the atlantic" that will cover the debate. your new piece out this morning in "the atlantic" is entitled a parade of listless vessels. tonight's contest will inevitably suffer from two basic structural flaws. this on the whole is not the audience we have here. a large and determinative and deeply committed portion of the gop electorate, the maga sector, has been more or less a closed box for seven years now. the other structural defect sroflsz self neutering. that requires a willingness to attack their biggest adversary, whether he is participating in the event or not and especially when he holds a massive lead over them. other than kamikaze christie seems content to play for second place. >> if i get this right, you are going to milwaukee to see a group of self-neutering empty vessels. set it up for us. >> yeah, wouldn't you do the same? i am going to milwaukee, and yes, and what i am looking for tonight is whether or not if anybody says donald trump steals the oxygen from an event like this, and is there oxygen left in the party, and i am dubious at this point, and i think there are not a lot of voters out there, and the critical mass of voters out there is not big at this point and we will see how the other candidates try to divide that up. >> ron desantis' launch has not gone the way he imagined would, and he started competitive and led in some polls and now has fallen back now that the country has gotten a look at him, and the desantis campaign is looking for tonight to relaunch him and introduce him to a wider audience? is there a chance he goes a little harder as you did with the listless vessels comment, and say donald trump was wrong in the 2020 election? any chance we hear that from him? >> i think that's his only chance, frankly. ron desantis has an extremely tall order tonight. it's taller since he never has done this before, and it's his first televised presidential debate. he has to assert himself as the main alternative to donald trump. people assume that has been his position for a long time, and he has not proven that and he has been a disappointment again and again and again in the times that he tried to launch himself in this race. i am curious to see if he is up to the job and if he is serious about it and attack donald trump in a way he has not so far. he has not shown to this point whether or not he wants to win. he has given off a sense that he is content in trying to be the winner of a second place, and keep whatever goodwill he had come into this for next time and make a few friends along the way, and that doesn't seem to be something he is succeeding very well with. >> al sharpton. he has -- desantis, he has led the battle of trying to eliminate some parts of black history from studies, lgbtq women, and even tim scott took issue with him about whether slavery had advantages or somehow helped the enslaved, and will the other candidates take him on that? if so does he dig in or modify the statements he has made that has been apoorable to many of those communities? >> his super pac is called never back down. he's really bad at -- he does not think well on his feet, and he's a good target in his own way, and chris christie, he can run circles around somebody like him, because he's not a nimble debater at all, at least he has not proven to be so far. in the absence of donald trump, who i think will take a lot of incoming, whether he is there or not, but desantis is really the biggest target. i think that he's got to be ready. i think he has shown again and again, he's not terribly good in these situations. there was a moment in the last governor's race last november against charlie crist where he froze onstage and it didn't hurt him in the polls, but it was a bad moment for him. according to one diplomat, we will get the view from oversees when "morning joe" comes right back. my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ it was time for a nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala. when i first learned about my dupuytren's contracture, my physician referred me to a hand specialist. and i'm glad he did, because when i took the tabletop test, i couldn't lay my hand flat anymore. the first hand specialist i saw only offered surgery. so, i went to a second hand specialist who also offered nonsurgical options - which felt more right for me. so, what i'd say to other people with dupuytren's contracture is this: don't wait —find a hand specialist trained in nonsurgical options, today. i found mine at findahandspecialist.com. more shopping? 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>> "the new york times" article got it right. when i talked to my old colleagues across the popped, there's a collective european freak out over a trump two, and that's because alliances matter, and there was a brilliant constellation of partners in europe and asia, and this is in the political field and the intelligence field, and let me expand a bit about that. that means intelligence sharing. if you are in france or if you are in the united kingdom, what they do when they collect intelligence is shared it with the united states, and did so knowing they could trust us. this doesn't apply to other republican candidates, this is just donald trump who can't handle classified information well and is seen as pro russian, and why would the french if they have critical information on russia, why would they share that with us. they will just turn the spigot off. that's a concern. >> and in the context of the war in ukraine, where most people think putin is waiting out the election to see if donald trump is put back in the white house, and then he has a buddy and he can go through impunity and perhaps support would be rolled back. this is a global question, for sure? >> it's a global question for sure. if you look at where the republican party is today you see how far trump has moved the republican party. when you have ramaswamy saying we will concede that war, and it gives you a sense of where this republican party, which was once known for standing up to the soviet union, which is a pro democracy and we are going to stand up with human rights, and it was a reaganesque posture, and you have ramaswamy who wants to concede territory, and kevin mccarthy who is not as tough on russia as they once were. donald trump has changed the dialogue about europe, europen security and russia. >> as you lay that out, i talked to a lot of leaders in africa, from african countries, and russia and china has made a lot of moves in terms of trying to affect african policy and work closely with the leaders and even what is going on in niger, and the rumbling is there's not a lot of opposition to russia or china, and what is the concern about what we do? talk about the ramifications this has globally when there seems to be this kind of ambiguity in terms of u.s. policy? >> yeah, and we knew what trump thought about africans, and i think that summed up the donald trump presidency, and joe biden has been way more engaged with africa, and they have had african summits here -- >> yeah, a big one. >> a big one. and president biden has re-engaged with africa, because to your point, we are playing catchup and china has moved in to africa with heavy investments, and russia with its proxy organizations, and they exploited that and have contribute to the destabilization to some of the african countries, and that's because the u.s. was not present for four years with donald trump. and we are looking at this particular presidency of joe biden and hoping who are the countries that are looking for trump? it's the authoritarians? it's the strong men that want to welcome back a trump presidency, because they knew in the united states, they had somebody that spoke their language and could trade with in a quid pro quo kind of transaction, and it's more about what can i give you and you give me? >> tonight, we will go to the site of tonight's republican presidential debate, and we will be joined next with a preview. ♪ chevy silverado has what it takes to do it all. with up to 13 camera views. and the z71 off-road package. ♪ you ok? yeah. any truck can help you make a living. this one helps you build a life. chevy silverado. being middle class right now, it's tough making ends meet for sure. republicans in congress say if we just cut taxes even more for the biggest corporations the money will eventually someday trickle trickle down to you. right. joe biden would rather just stop those corporations from charging so damn much. capping the cost of drugs like insulin. cracking down on surprise medical bills and all those crazy junk fees. there's more work to do. tell the president to keep lowering costs for middle class families. ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ( ♪♪ ) constant contact's advanced automation lets you send the right message at the right time, every time. 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online. . there's no doubt artificial intelligence will revolutionize the way we work, learn and communicate with each other. but as we rely more on ai to do jobs once done by humans, it turns out that women have a lot more to worry about than men. go figure. according to a new study, women are 1 1/2 times more likely than men to lose their jobs to ai. here to explain, maggie mcgraph, editor of forbes women. also with us, huma abedin and vice chair of the forbes and know your value 3050 summit. great to have you back with us. maggie, lay out this study. what else did the study from mckensie global institute reveal? >> they looked at the way automation and ai can transform the work force over the next seven years. they found that broadly automation will hit certain sectors more than others. office support jobs, customer support jobs, food service jobs are the sectors that they outlined as being more likely to be hit by ai and automation. and specifically they said that office support jobs, which include positions like administrative assistants, could lose 3.7 million positions by 2030. over the same timeframe, customer service jobs could lose 2 million positions. overall, some 12 million people could need to look for new work by 2030 because of this shifting landscape. but women and people of color disproportionately represent the work forces of these sectors, which means they will be disproportionately affected by these changes. >> absolutely. so, flipping that, huma, what are the groups or industries that will reap the benefits of ai? >> it may be no surprise but white collar workers, particularly those known as knowledge workers who will benefit the most. so, if you're working in s.t.e.m., legal professions, business, management development, your job is likely to be more enhanced by ai than eliminated across the board. the largest gain for employment is in the health care space. those working in health and wellness and health aides. there's this very interesting pew research that shows that white collar workers actually believe, and they're actually optimistic about the benefits that ai will provide for them professionally. >> so, huma, just following up with this coming revolution of ai, how -- what can be done? especially for women to make sure they're not left behind, both from a policy perspective and an individual perspective, that they don't lose their ability to make a living. >> you know, i thought this study was sobering, but also very instructive. the key is for women and people of color and communities of color across the board to adapt, look at ways to both adapt to this changing reality in the workplace and to approach it with some urgency. for employers in particular, they should be -- the study suggests that they should be more creative about how they're looking to hire -- to hire for jobs, instead of looking at educational background, looking at experience, looking at potential and seeing what kind of training and job training skills they can offer in these new positions because there is demand for people in different sectors, it's just being trained on the job as an avenue that we can start pursuing then to look at somebody's resume and seeing if that works. the other thing particularly for employers as it relates to women, you have to go down a few pages to look at this piece, is child care support. is child care one of the most expensive -- expenses in any household, particularly for women since we bear the burden of that traditionally, offering that kind of support can help. it's about supporting individuals, about how you help companies hire that talent, and in a perfect world it's enhancing rather than eliminating across all sectors. there's a lot of work to be done and we need to approach it with urgency. this study is really instructive. >> we'll be following this story as it develops. thank you so much, maggie mcgrath and huma abedin. to read more about all of our 50 over 50 honorees, head over to forbes.com or knowyourvalue.com. we have crossed the top of the hour. our fourth hour now. 6:00 a.m. out on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. mike barnicle is with us for the hour. we begin with tonight's republican primary, the debate in milwaukee, wisconsin where eight candidates will take the stage to make their case for why they should be the next president. front-runner donald trump has declined to participate tonight. but tomorrow he is expected to surrender at the fulton county jail where he faces charges for his alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election. joining us live from milwaukee is nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake. set the scene for us there and what you expect to see tonight. >> good morning on a hot day in milwaukee. for all the candidates not named donald trump, tonight is going to be the biggest night of the campaign so far. eight candidates with millions of viewers watching have an opportunity to distinguish themselves from one another and from the former president who has been dominating this race. >> reporter: this morning, all eyes are on the battleground state of wisconsin where the battle for the gop nomination will take a dramatic turn tonight with the first republican debate. eight candidates expected to take the stage for two hours in prime time. front-runner donald trump will not be among them. at center stage, the two highest polling candidates present, florida governor ron desantis and entrepreneur vivek ramaswamy. >> it's a good night. >> introducing myself to the people of this country and people who maybe, just maybe some people who can pronounce my name. >> reporter: the candidates divided over how to take advantage of the absence of donald trump. critic chris christie expected to be on the attack. >> i think the big loser in tomorrow night's debate has been determined, it's donald trump, because he didn't have the guts or the respect to show up on that stage and defend his record. >> reporter: new polling from nbc news and the des moines register shows among likely republican caucus goers in iowa, no position is less popular than aggressively attacking the former president. data that supports this strategy of candidates like south carolina's tim scott. >> people will make a decision based on the future of their family, not what's going on with the legal entanglements of the former president. >> reporter: those entanglements could be in the spotlight nonetheless. on thursday, the former president is expected to turn himself in to face wide-ranging charges in fulton county. the first of his 18 co-defendants, including co-defendant john eastman booked and released on bond. eastman was asked if he believes the election was stolen from trump. >> absolutely. >> still. >> no question. >> reporter: donald trump may not be attending this debate but that doesn't mean his presence won't be felt. he'll have senior members of his senior staff here and surrogates outdoing interviews, even people like folks behind me making sure donald trump's name and image are everywhere. >> stay with us. david drucker is also at the debate site in milwaukee, and former aide to house speaker paul ryan and john boehner, brendan buck, an nbc political analyst. good to have you on. david, you're there in milwaukee. what should we be watching for tonight? give us a viewer's guide, and is it fair to ask if this debate even matters. there was a new poll out showing trump up over 40 points over ron desantis and the rest of the field. >> yeah. look, it's a fair question to ask. the candidates gathering here this evening are trailing donald trump and trailing him by quite a bit. i think strategically not participating in this debate was the right move for trump. he is positioned as a quas incumbent. and though we may look back and think differently, i think strategically this makes the most sense. so, what do you want to do without trump on the stage? there's still a campaign to run and the alternative to trump that these candidates are trying to own. obviously that belonged to ron desantis for quite awhile. he's still a solid second place but he's dropped. for him, this is a very important night. even a mediocre showing without major mistakes is not what he needs. he needs to give voters a sense of strength and leadership. other candidates need a breakout moment. it doesn't have to be viral. it doesn't have to be something super duper, if you will. it just needs to be a moment of distinguishing themselves. i would say with eight, nine, whatever the number of candidates now on the stage, the real challenge and the way you excel in a debate like this is to grab talk time. it's not enough to follow the rules. it's not enough to avoid some major gaffe or misstatement of policy that you have to explain later. you need to be present. candidates that don't make mistakes, don't talk for that long end up getting penalized because voters look at this and they're like -- if you can't show me you're there, how are you going to stand up to the political opponents and foreign adversaries? >> there's a lot of intrigue tonight. one will be seeing how desantis, governor desantis performs in this setting, where he has to react and perform on his feet, not just give a speech at a rally or a lectern. chris christie also will be interesting. he's experienced. he's done this. he's nimble on his feet in a debate setting. it has the feeling, does it not, of playing for the silver medal here? >> it does. it feels like that's what they've been doing all along. chris christie tried to make the point that this is not all that late in the race, but i disagree. they have ceded a long time. they have a lot of ground to make up. ron desantis has huge stakes. doing a debate is awkward in general. standing up there, trying to sound smooth is difficult. we know ron desantis has challenges with not coming off as awkward. chris christie, as you said, is very good at this. those moments that david talked about that make you stand out, they don't typically come from a canned line. it's how you respond on your feet. what is your counter jab? if ron desantis comes off as stiff and awkward again, i think people will be ready to turn the page. chris christie is good at jabbing people. if ron desantis is on the receiving end of that, he may not even make it to the next debate. >> all right. former president trump is expected to surrender at the fulton county jail tomorrow evening. the booking process in fulton county typically includes a mugshot, fingerprinting, and taking height and weight measurements. the guardian reports that trump has asked his lawyers to get him out of taking a mugshot. in previous cases he has not had to take one. the fulton county sheriff said the former president will be treated like any other defendant. meanwhile, rudy giuliani is traveling today to georgia where he faces 13 counts in connection with trying to overturn the results of the 2020 election. here's what he told reporters on his way out of his new york city apartment moments ago about surrendering to authorities in fulton county. >> i'm going to fulton county to comply with the law, which i always do. i don't know if i plead today, if i do, i plead not guilty. i get photographed, isn't that nice? a mug short-term for the man who probably put the worst criminals of the 20th century in jail. >> i -- wow. garrett, curious about rudy giuliani and his ability to post bond. i guess he's finding the money somewhere. are all of these co-defendants going to be able to refrain from being detained? >> it certainly looks that way. you don't necessarily have to put up all the money up front on these bonds. there's various other ways to post the money to make sure you stay out of prison. as we see these lower level folks on the conspiracy tapestry here, if you will, come through, we'll get that question answered. remember, right now one of the big questions we're trying to figure out is how many of these people will end up having some of their representation or all of it covered by donald trump's legal apparatus, the save america pac or other groups stepping in to help them. it doesn't appear that's the case for giuliani. there's been public reporting that he's been trying to ask for financial help from the trump team and hasn't gotten it. mark meadows has basically separated himself from the trump political apparatus as well. he's the other person i'm watching closely to see if he shows up. there were filings late yesterday back and forth between he and the judge, the prosecutor's office. he does not want to turn himself in. he is trying to get this kicked up to federal court. a lot of moving parts to be watching in georgia over the next 48 hours. >> david drucker, let me ask you, it seems to me that the air of normalcy is not hanging heavy out there this morning prior to this debate. you know all the participants in this debate quite well. you know the republican side of the aisle quite well. what impact, if any, do you think reality will have and the reality i'm talking about is defined by a former president who in 24 hours or 48 hours will have a mugshot available for all the american public to see. he could have gone to milwaukee because he's out on bond with privileges to travel. just those two items alone separate him in many different wayses ways from the pack of candidates. will it have any lasting impact? >> the only impact i expect all of trump's legal issues to have on this debate is it how much the candidates do not want to talk about it. outside of chris christie and asa hutchinson, none of them want to talk about this. to the extent they talk about it, i expect them to defend trump and criticize the justice system. of course, it's really a strange sort of thing when the guy you're running against who is the front-runner has been indicted four times and instead of stomping on him and trying to use it against him, which is what trump would do if any of them were indicted and threat ed him for the normal nation, certainly if desantis was indicted, instead they rush to his defense. not only do republican primary voters not believe these indictments are justified, in fact his numbers have only gone up with every indictment. the nbc news reporting in iowa shows the middle of the polling, trump is indicted and then trump's numbers go up from the previous night. for republicans, this is a delicate issue they'd rather not discuss but it's one of the reasons trump leads. every time they talk about electability they're asked, okay, trump lost the 2020 election, well, not exactly, maybe, kinda sort of. how can he be electable? they're busy making convoluted arguments. some others like vivek ramaswamy will say the justice department is wrong. trump is being wronged. i don't think all of this is fair. all of it has the cumulative effect of trump's opponents sort of running as blocking backs for him. it's one more reason why, one, he's probably better served strategically not showing up to the debate because now ron desantis is the biggest target. and why in absentia they're more likely to defend him on his biggest general election vulnerabilities versus attacking him, outside of candidates like christie, hutchinson, maybe a couple others will surprise us but we have not really seen it yet. >> all right. david drucker on site at the debate tonight near milwaukee, thank you very much. we appreciate it. we're getting news now that kenneth cheeseborough has surrendered in fulton county. he's on top of the list of the people who allegedly conspired to overturn the results of the election inside the state of department. again, president trump expected to surrender tomorrow, we believe tomorrow evening. as you look at this contrast of all of these indictments, one by one members who worked with donald trump or worked on behalf of donald trump in the state of georgia to attempt to overturn the election, as you look at that side of the story and contrast it to what we will see tonight where, as david said, chris christie, asa hutchinson, they will say flatly that donald trump did something wrong, he pushed a bunch of lies. everyone else has tried to tiptoe and walking the line between keeping trump's voters close, not offending them and trying to say something in support of the democratic process, of our elections that were overturned, at least attempted to be. is that a dance they can do? >> i think it's probably too late to change their tune at this point. they spent the first three, four indictments defending him and making it easy for him to skate off of this. i get why they're not criticizing him. we have polling this morning showing this is extremely unpopular to criticize him. the problem is you got into this race to defeat trump. at some point you had to realize that you have to make an affirmative case for why he should not be the nominee. you don't have to be anti-trump. you don't have to sound like chris christie. we know the reason why chris christie's unfavorable rating is so high with republicans because he sounds like an anti-trumper. but you have to make an affirmative case for why we need to turn the page. you can say he was a good president, that he had four years of good accomplishments, you have to complete that thought as to why now we need to turn the page and do that. thus far they've not been willing to do that because a lot of them are in self-preservation mode. ron desantis probably thinks he has a future here if he hedges his bets. frankly, they've been unwilling to take the risk and they have their consultants who will take the fees and not get on a blacklist for trump and it continues. >> as i go back to you one more time, kenneth cheseboro was granted $100,000 bond. he becomes the sixth of the 19 co-conspirators indicted in fulton county. >> yeah, that's right. i suspect we'll see another rush of these folks to get in and out before donald trump and the associated media circus that comes tomorrow. nobody wants to get caught in that. i want to add one more thing, this effort to defend trump, it started on capitol hill. it started with house republicans and the language about attacking the justice department and the two tiered justice. it goes back to the hunter biden laptop. every other republican went along with it up and until we got to the point of this presidential campaign. now the language and structure is there. it's what the party expects to hear. it will be extremely difficult for any of these other candidates to say we thought this was all true before, now that we're talking about donald trump specifically, the justice department is good and law and order is our friend. it's a difficult turn for any of those candidates to make. >> garrett haake, thank you very much for your reporting. while the republican candidates prepare to take the stage this evening in milwaukee, winning over voters won't be the only thing on their mind. they'll also be vying for money as the first debate and the fund-raising that follows can sometimes make or break a run for the presidency. for more on this, let's bring in co-anchor of cnbc's "squawkbox," andrew ross sorkin. i know it's about making moments and making money over those moments. are they expecting a large audience tonight? >> i think they are. i think they think of this as a moneyball night for so many of the candidates because there's really going to be an expectation that tonight could be the evening that some of the big money actually decides where they'll be laying that money, where they'll be making those bets. a lot of folks on wall street, silicon valley and others have not made the true decision yet. will they continue to support desantis? some of them put early money in. he still has the most money between money given directly to him and the super pac supporting him. he has more than $100 million. after that you get into a race with tim scott who has about $20 million already direct and a super pac behind him with another $15 million. then you have vivek ramaswamy, who has been both coming up in the polls in a very big way, but also is somewhat supporting his own campaign with his own money. he lent more than $15 million to his campaign. then folks like pence and others who from a dollar perspective have a lot less money. if they're going to stay in this campaign, they need to win and win big in terms of being able to drive more money into their campaign and into this election. this is as much about winning over the hearts and minds of folks as it is about winning those dollars. by the way, interestingly, i didn't mention chris christie. he's been raising money but not just from the typical republican class, he's also been raising money from democrats including barry diller, the media mogul, who has given a lot of money to biden. why is he giving money to chris christie? he believes if there's any candidate out there who can actually drive a wedge against trump, it is chris christie as a way effectively of supporting biden. there's a bit of -- a complicated game here that is not just i want so and so to win, but maybe i want so and so to win because i want somebody else to win. >> andrew ross sorkin, thank you very much. we'll be watching tonight to see how this all plays out. trump, i guess, has some sort of counter-programming. coming up on "morning joe" -- an update on the severe weather gripping the country from the hawaii wildfires to the soaring heat across the midwest. later, there is a new type of podcast taking over spotify. let's listen. that's actually it. donny deutsch explains why more and more people are spending their time listening to white noise. it's part of donnie's brand up brand down segment which i turn up the white noise for. straight ahead on "morning joe." 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featuring fresh artisan bread piled high with tender roast beef, smothered with melty provolone cheese, just enough chipotle mayo and served with hot au jus for dipping. try the roast beef or pastrami french dips today. only at togo's. david: as we start a new school year, there's something new happening in california's public schools. they're called community schools. leslie: it really is shared leadership with families, students, educators, and communities. jessie: i feel like we're really valued as partners. david: it's a more innovative, holistic approach. grant: in addition to academic services, we look at serving the whole family. narrator: wellness centers, food pantries, and parental education. jessie: they're already making a difference. david: california's community schools: reimagining public education. featuring fresh artisan bread piled high with tender roast beef, smothered with melty provolone cheese, just enough chipotle mayo and served with hot au jus for dipping. try the roast beef or pastrami french dips today. only at togo's. president biden's visit to maui to meet with survivors of the wildfires said he was met by largely positive response. newspapers in hawaii highlighted the president's commitment to rebuilding the island. one woman who lost her home in the fire said "i'm glad he's here to see firsthand what's happened to our town. it shows he cares." the maui fire chief said "i'm grateful he made the trip and showed immense support from our community." here's the reaction from another resident. >> he was so present with so many, one after one, he spoke with hundreds of people and hugged them and kissed their cheek, heard what we all had to say. there were really -- since this happened, there haven't been that many smiles in one place on this island. >> still there are frustrations with the government's response as search teams sift through the ashes to look for the missing. sam brock has more from maui. >> reporter: more than two weeks after fires destroyed the town of lahaina, the total number of unaccounted for is rising. overnight, eight more victims identities revealed. nearly all of them in their 60s and 70s, despite growing concern about how many children may have died. the fbi says no one on the list has a birthday of a minor. we heard from parents who lost their kids, do you think it's possible there's no minors on the list? how can there be this conflicting information. >> we rely on people to let us know. but we have other means of figuring out if minors were involved. system here in maui to try to figure out have any kids not shown up to school yet, that sort of thing. >> reporter: county leaders under scrutiny for the response as well as relief efforts, coming face to face for the first time with devastated residents in a public forum. >> we have lost our people. we have lost our homes. and for some, we have lost our purpose. >> the landlords that have the gumption to push evictions on their tenants right now do not care. >> reporter: recovery teams have searched single story homes, now they're focusing on commercial buildings and multi-level residencies. grandmother and great-grandmother donna gomes died in the blaze steps from her homes. her family says their matriarch had a huge heart. >> it brought some closure to know that was my mom because there are other families out there that still don't know. >> reporter: the cause of the fire still under investigation as officials say the recovery could make months, if not years. a critical next step, providing temporary housing, like these portable units for displaced families who lost everything. >> hope it will be a place where we could just find refuge and rebuild. >> absolutely heartbreaking with a lot of hard work ahead in maui. sam brock reporting for us from hawaii. back in washington, speaker kevin mccarthy is warning house republicans could launch an impeachment inquiry into president biden once lawmakers are back in session next month. during an interview with fox business yesterday, mccarthy accused the biden administration of failing to turn over documents. >> the thing that holds up whether to do an impeachment inquiry, provide us the documents we're asking. if they provide us the documents, there wouldn't be a a need for an impeachment inquiry. if they withhold the documents and not provide to the american public what they deserve to know, we'll move forward with impeachment inquiry when we come back into session. the bank statements, credit card statements and others, show us where the money went. were you taking money from outside sources and that would clear most of this up. they seem to fight it every step of the way. >> unclear exactly what documents mccarthy is accusing the biden administration of failing to provide. it's worth going back to a moment from house oversight committee chairman james comber in june. >> we've gotten 100% of what we've requested, whether from the fbi, banks or treasury. >> james comer saying we got everything we needed. they complied with the subpoenas. he's the same person who said we don't have proof, no fire yet, but there's a lot of smoke. you would think after these years of investigation there would be fire. what is your sense of where this is all going? >> i think it's important to point out a lot of people are claiming fire. this is the biggest problem with this inquiry. good oversight can start with a theory, but you have to build facts before you reach a conclusion. a lot of republicans reached a conclusion that joe biden was on the take, taking foreign money while in power. a remarkable charge. they have not been able to prove that. it's somewhat remarkable what kevin mccarthy is saying, we'll launch an inquiry to get documents, to get facts. typically if you're going to impeach the president, you know the president has done something wrong. you already have those facts. to use that as a tool is remarkable. you can't separate this from other challenges that kevin mccarthy is facing. this is a bit of putting your finger in the dam with all of the flack he's taking from the far right. i think he's responding to a lot of anxiety. he did that debt limit deal that a lot of conservatives didn't like. now a lot of conservatives saying you better deliver on defunding the doj, funding the wall, all of these things that will be hard to do. there may be a government shutdown over all of this. i think kevin mccarthy is trying to make sure he's giving the far-right something. i can't deliver you everything, maybe i can go down this impeachment inquiry. >> brendan buck, thank you very much. appreciate it. mike, you hear an attempt by speaker mccarthy to create some equivalence between what we're talking about every day with donald trump and these four indictments, these alleged crimes and some vague nebulous allegation between hunter biden and president biden. >> kevin mccarthy promised all sorts of things to all sorts of people within his party. now that's coming home to roost. he overpromised things to the right, to the freedom caucus, now nobody can agree on anything, thus, they can't govern. they have an inability to govern. it's highly likely the government could be shut down within a month because of the conflicts on the floor of the house of representatives. that's where we are. the house of representatives today, right now, is a separate universe from reality, parts of it. impeachment proceedings against the sitting president of the united states, joseph r. biden rather than keeping a functioning government going. >> speaker mccarthy publicly stirs outrage over everything stacked up against donald trump including classified documents, an attempted coup, but he performs outrage there when talking about joe biden. in a dramatic turn, donny deutsch is waiting in the wings to answer the question what do tattoos, laughing out loud and color schemes from the 1970s have in common? i genuinely have no idea except for they're all part of a new edition of brand up brand down. donny deutsch with the walk-in shot. he's next on "morning joe." e. i suffer with psoriatic arthritis and psoriasis. i was on a journey for a really long time to find some relief. cosentyx works for me. cosentyx helps real people get real relief from the symptoms of psoriatic arthritis or psoriasis. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to or if ibd symptoms develop or worsen. i move so much better because of cosentyx. ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx. age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv why didn't we do this last year? before you were preventing migraine with qulipta®? 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[ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ made it! mom! leave running behind, behind. the new turbocharged volkswagen atlas. does life beautifully. i may be known for my legendary football career, but truth is, i love a bunch of sports. the only trouble is knowing where to find them. that's why i got xfinity. so, i can easily find and watch whatever sport i'm into all in one place without missing a thing. even if it's football, australian football, or football football. in a word—it's fitz-credible. i got to trademark that one. this season, eligible xfinity rewards members can get up to $100 off nfl sunday ticket from youtube. sign up for xfinity rewards now. beautiful live picture of los angeles at 6:36 in the morning as you wake up out west. why are you here? a little satisfaction? could the rolling stones be releasing their first album of original music in nearly 20 years? that's what a lot of fans seem to believe all thanks to a mysterious advertisement placed in a local london newspaper. here it is. at first glance it looks like a promotion for a new glass repair shop, but there are clues. can you see it? the ad for hackney diamonds features lyrics from the best known hits. the second clue, the story was established in 1962. the same year the stones were formed. if you look close enough, the "i" in diamonds with dotted with the band's tongue and lips logo. representatives of the stones have not commented. mick jagger turned 80 years old. they're still at it. >> incredible. still performing to a peak, all of them. the drummer passed away, but absolutely incredible cultural phenomenon. >> let's see if it's real. donny deutsch is here. you all have waited long enough. another edition of brand up brand down. he brought us some good ones. let's start with one of the fastest growing podcast genres which i did not see coming. white noise? >> these are the podcasts where you listen to rippling brook, rain, and they're getting millions and millions of hours of viewing. spotify lost what they think to be $30 million of advertising revenue where people would normally be listening to music. they wanted to get rid of it, but they got too much backlash. >> it's like a head space thing. you want to get calm, meditate and listen to white noise. >> you got to be kidding. >> no. try meditation, you may like it. >> sign of the times. >> this is mike's role. you got to be kidding. brand down. explain this one. america's economic disconnect. >> this is something the biden administration has to deal with. 71% of americans think the economy is either bad or poor. yet 60% of people say their own personal finances are very, very good. the go figure that out. that doesn't make any sense. there's something out there where people are trained to say the economy sucks, the economy sucks, yet their lives are good. the democrats have some work to do to bridge that gap. >> mike, that is a frustration from the biden white house. unemployment at historic lows. inflation ticking back down. they feel like they've done some work in the last couple of years but it's not showing up. >> it's such an accurate assessment. you have construction cranes all over the country. people going back to work. unemployment very, very low. some say it's 3%. >> yeah. >> yet you ask people, how are you doing economically? i'm okay. i'm doing pretty well. teamsters, u.p.s. drivers got a big contract. what about the country as a whole? we're gone. it's over. >> let's -- as we go on this journey of hills and valleys, brand up, gray haired stoners. what are we talking about here? >> there he is guys like me and mike, the fastest growing segment of people smoking pot are 65 and over. it's up from 11% to 32%. it's the fastest growing segment. i think that's good news for us old men. >> why? bordum? >> i think it's become more socially accepted. and for health reasons, drinking versus smoking, it doesn't put on the calories. >> pain management. >> it makes you eat. >> it makes you eat. yes, it does. i don't know because i never smoked pot. that's what i hear. i just do edibles. >> millionaires, brand down. what's the deal? >> interestingly enough, basically last year this country lost 1.7 millionaires who used to be, now no longer. global wealth dropped 2.4%. a lot of it has to do with currencies. people making six figures are three times more likely to lose their job than low-income earners. companies are looking to squeeze in tech and finance. we're evening out as far as ending the wealth disparity. >> i want to know about lol. lol brand down. i just got it down. i just started using it. >> the new one is, igbol. i just burst out laughing. that's what gen-z thinks is cooler. i will stick with lol. i can't remember that. lmao, laughing my -- off. rofl. rolling on the floor laughing. >> i have another brand up. kroger sushi. >> the number one purveyor of sushi in this country. they sold 40 million pieces of sushi last year. supermarkets account for 15% of all sushi. that's where people are going. >> they're doing a good job with it. mike, you like a day-old gas station sushi. nice savings on that. how about avocado green brand up. >> i grew up in that '70s horrible green color, it seems to be back in vogue. some of the biggest designers are showing this avocado green and the amber gold seems to be coming back. that's the color. >> there it is. >> that's the color of the moment. >> looks good. i'll do avocado green in my decor. tv viewing, we don't like this. >> millennial viewing, only 20% is broadcast, below 30% is cable. streaming, 38.7%. what's interesting about streaming, you know the number one streamed show or movie last month? it was all reruns of "suits." 18 million minutes of views. so there's an interesting thing there that linear tv is going down but old shows are coming back. >> is that the meghan markle thing? >> yeah. >> finally, this number grabbed up, tattoos, brand up. >> take a guess, the percentage of americans who have tattoos. 5%? 9%? pew says 32% of americans have tattoos. 38% of women, 27% of men have it. here's the last one. for women between the ages of 18 and 50, about 55% have tattoos. >> come on. >> that stuns me. >> it's true. >> i'm not a big tattoo guy. mika, you're not a big tattoo girl. >> no. >> all the things i presented here. all the nonsense in front of you, all the useless information, this one blew me away more than any other. >> i guess you believe it antidotal but more than half of 18 to 50-year-old women? >> 18 to 29, 56%. 53%, 30 to 49. >> you keep wondering about the tattoo on your arm, whatever. at some point in your life, whether you're 50, 60, you're thinking i have to get this thing off. >> yeah. >> there's that, too. donny deutsch, thank you very much. brand up, brand down, mika. up next, a daring and unprecedented mission by a first lady. we'll have more about eleanor roosevelt's secret trip to the pacific during world war ii, putting her right in the middle of the conflict. and a little more news as we go to break. republican presidential candidate governor doug burgum injured his leg playing basketball yesterday and was taken to a milwaukee area hospital where he was discharged the same day. a campaign source says it is unclear if he will be able to stand at tonight's debate. we'll be following that. "morning joe" is coming right back. back age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv at the alzheimer's association walk to end alzheimer's, now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. this is why we walk. ♪ they're why we walk. ♪ we walk in the alzheimer's association walk to end alzheimer's because we're getting closer to beating this disease. join us. this month marks 80 years since eleanor roosevelt embarked on a secret five-week mission to the pacific during world war ii. in the late summer of 1943, she covered 25,000 miles traveling to australia, new zealand and through the south pacific into territory that was still under attack. the war-time mission is the subject of the new book "the first lady of world war ii: eleanor roosevelt's daring journey to the front lines and back." joining us is shannon mckenna schmidt. tell us more about this mission. >> at this time 80 years ago, eleanor roosevelt was traveling through the south pacific, the american public and media did not low she left the country on this risky expedition. news was kept -- the trip was kept secret for the first ten days as she made for the first ten days as she made her way through the south pacific, and when it broke ten days into the trip, it just caused a media firestorm, and she traveled 25,000 miles over the course of five weeks to hawaii, new zealand, australia, through the south pacific, and as you mentioned into territory that was still under enemy air attack. >> tell us more about what people don't know about what she did on this trip and also how it changed her and perhaps it changed maybe her approach to how she supported her husband. >> yes, and fdr was enormously supportive of eleanor's travels throughout her time as first lady, and in fact, the fact that she traveled so much or traveled at all was one of the reasons that she was considered an unconventional first lady. >> there's so much about her and some of the detail in here, it's really a wonderful story that she said, you know what? on this trip i'm just going to wear a red cross uniform, i don't have to pack any clothes. therefore i can bring my typewriter. and she insisted on going to the canal, suggestions you shouldn't come here. we're worried we can't protect you here. how did she get her way to guadal canal. >> she felt a sense of obligation to the generations of young men being sent into battle. going there was a way to pay tribute to the servicemen, and dead set against eleanor's trip to the pacific was admiral william halsey, commander of the south pacific forces, and he was the man who would solely decide whether or not she was allowed to go to guadal canal. this was very important to her. admiral halsey complete changed his tune when she first visited his headquarters, she was like it's no place for you, ma'am, and he wasn't going to let her go, but she persuaded him with the power of her example, and he saw that eleanor roosevelt was the real deal. and one of the things that particularly impressed him was how she would go through the hospital ward. she walked miles and miles of hospital wards during those five weeks going bed to bed confidenting the wounded skprgs he saw the uplifting effect her presence had on the troops. i think that's one of the most remarkable things and very telling of eleanor's trip is that admiral halsey was dead set against it and ended up completely changing his tune, and he said that through the rest of the war of all the people who came through his area, nobody did more good than she did. >> one of the more interesting aspects in a book filled with interesting aspects about a woman who we think we knew or know was her role in conversing with service members from island hopping one hospital ward to another, and it resulted in eventually one of the most iconic pieces of legislation ever passed by the united states congress, the gi bill. tell us about that. >> eleanor throughout the war was very determined to see that legislation was passed to support the servicemen, the veterans, and the power that she really had was -- so she's ten years into her time as first lady at this point, and she has built up an enormous media network she uses to communicate with the american public. including her six day a week syndicated newspaper column called my day. in fact, she took a typewriter with her to the south pacific through the pacific so that she could keep writing my day in realtime and so not only is the first lady in an active theater of war, she's reporting to the president and the home front while she's there, and one of the things that she did was she used this powerful media presence, and she used the public pressure to bring pressure on congress to help pass -- get legislation passed for these returning servicemen, and the other thing that she reminded people is that veterans were already coming back. they needed the legislation immediately and not sometime after the war was done because many of them were already coming back with injuries that they needed support for and other things. >> you write in the book too she lost 30 pounds during the trip. she was depressed when she got back. she said later the pacific trip left a mark from which i think i will never be free. it's a really wonderful story that i haven't heard, i think most people haven't heard so well told in the new book, "the first lady of world war ii, eleanor roosevelt's daring journey to the front line and back." congratulations on the book. great to have you here. >> thanks for having me. >> we'll be right back with more "morning joe." about three or four years ago, i wasn't feeling as if i was as sharp as i used to be. i wanted to try something that was over-the-counter. i saw the prevagen commercials. after a short amount of time taking prevagen, i started noticing a difference-- that i'm remembering this, i'm remembering that. i stopped taking prevagen and i found myself slacking back so i jumped right back on it. i feel as if it's brought me back to the good 'ol days. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. more shopping? 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