president biden stays silent on the appointment of a the special counsel investigating his son. >> i have no comment on the investigation going on. that's up to the justice department and that's all i have to say. >> as public distrust grows in the legal system will president biden rise to the challenge at this critical moment for the american democracy. i'll ask tim wall, the surrogate for the biden 2024 re-elect. and law and order. >> the defendants engaged in a criminal racketeering enterprise to overturn georgia's presidential election result. >> donald trump was charged with 13 felony counts along with 18 other co-conspirators and is now facing 91 criminal charges in four separate criminal cases. >> how dare low-life prosecutor, deranged jack smith, that's right. he's deranged. >> howl trump's threats against prosecutors, judges and potential witnesses impact all of these cases and will any of these trials begin before the november election? i'll talk to three former prosecutors about what to expect. joining me for insight and analysis are "usa today" washington bureau chief susan page. jonathan martin of politico. lanhee chen, and kimberly atkins stohr, senior opinion writer for "the boston globe." welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." >> from nbc news in washington, the longest running show in television history. this is "meet the press" with chuck todd. a good sunday morning. this week marks the unofficial kickoff of the next days of the 2024 campaign. republicans competing to take on donald trump will meet in milwaukee for the first republican debate. trump plans to skip the debate and instead is reportedly counterprogramming in an interview already taped with former fox host tucker carlson. of course, it used to be that extramarital affairs, campaign trail tears, forgetting a cabinet agency and even a weird screen could end a presidential campaign. now donald trump has been criminally indicted in as many months, faces 91 felony counts and still leads the republican field nationally by nearly 40 points and outside of the jersey governor chris christie who is polling at 3% in a quinnipiac poll and his former vice president mike pence, trump's republican opponents for the most part are declining to take him on directly. >> we've done over 80 town halls in new hampshire and iowa, and, erick, not one of them are asking me about trump. not one of them are asking me why i'm running against him or anything else. >> i think that these indictments are a disaster for the country. look at the polls that have come out in the last 24 hours. i'm polling second in many of the national polls. it would be easier for me if trump were eliminated from competition. >> instead, in a pre-debate memo from ron desantis' super pac advises him to take a sledgehammer to vivek ramaswamy and to defend trump when christie inevitably attacks him. the republican candidates are terrifying of alienating the trump-supporting voters that they'll need to win by criticizing trump. show us the campaign where an underdog beat a dominant front-runner by not taking on said front-runner directly. in an interview with the florida standard, desantis took a swipe at trump's cult of personality inside the republican party and the swipe immediately got trump and his allies to lash out. >> you could be the most conservative person since sliced bread unless you're kissing his rear end they will somehow call you a rhino. if all we are listless vessels that are supposed to follow whatever happens to come down the pike on truth social every morning, that's not going to be a durable movement. >> already this morning the trump campaign is trying to weaponize that phrase "listless vessels," trying to compare it to the famous basket of deplorables from hillary clinton in 2016. the judges and his cases and there are new threats of violence. a texas woman was arrested for threatening to kill. they posted names and addresses of the georgia grand jury after bringing indictments to trump. on monday to release what he called an irrefutable report including the 2020 fraud which has been debunked in dozens of court cases. on trump canceled the event and cited the advice of lawyers and this is a reminder that anything he says in public could be used against him in a court of law. in a quinnipiac poll this week, 83% said they're worried about a system of democracy being able to function in the united states. president biden was elected to restore the soul of the nation, his words. a vote for biden was said to be a vote to get rid of trump, but trump has made it clear he's not going anywhere, and he's still here. now just 24% of americans say they want biden to run again and just 30% want trump to win as trump has been indicted again and again and again and again, biden has chosen against taking him on in a meaningful way right now. that choice and the choice of republicans have left a massive moral vacuum in our nation, who is defending the guardrail? the biden campaign is defending president's record in a their 25 million ad campaign which will run in battle ground states. >> there are some who say america is failing. not joe biden. he believes our best days are ahead because he believes in the american people. >> those who bet against america are learning how wrong they are. >> joining me now is one of the republican candidates who will definitely be on that debate stage in milwaukee on wednesday night. it's north dakota governor doug burgum. governor burgum, thanks for joining us on "meet the press." >> thanks for having us on this morning. >> you got it. since you and i spoke a month ago, a couple of more indictments came down on the former president and i know you want to get on to other topics, but do you think he wanted to overturn the election results in 2020? that he made a concerted effort to do that? >> i think there's an entire cable news industry, there's an entire social industry built around trying to answer that question, and where we're coming from, we're excited to be on the debate stage and the least known candidate on there. if you want to fill this gap where you mentioned 83% of americans don't trust our institutions the way that starts is leadership at the top. any organization i've been involved with it starts with a leader that you can trust, that's got the character and the integrity and the proven track record of being able to do that, and that's what i've done my whole life in every organization i've been, but people don't know that yet, so we absolutely are going to leave that to this whole industry. we've got to focus on telling our story and telling the story of what we've been able to get done in north dakota. >> you are running for president. you don't think people need to know where you stand on these issues? you're asking to be the next guardrail of the american democracy. at the end of the day, this is the biggest stress test our country's faced in the last 20 years. >> yes, part of the stress test, whether it's for hunter biden, joe biden, donald trump, everybody's innocent until they're proven guilty in this country, and lots of accusations are being tossed around, but i think if we're focused on january, that's when the first caucuses and primaries are, that's when the voters do decide. i do trust the voters. i trust if we can show that we're a credible alternative that we can deliver the things that americans are looking for because americans do want this country to move forward. they want presidential elections to be about the future, a vision for the future then we have to offer that. if i'm just one more pundit criticizing everything that's gone on in 2020, no one's going to see that there's leadership there. again, presidential campaigns, you know, are about the future and we're going to paint that picture of how we can improve the economy, energy and national security, how that's going to improve every american life, how it's going to bring out the best of america. this country's got to move forward, not backward. >> if donald trump is convicted of a crime and you're president and you had the ability to keep him out of prison, would you? would you pardon him? >> i've been asked this question a bunch, and, of course, as sitting governor, i have to almost smile because as governors, we've got some limited pardoning ability for people in our own state, but if somebody came up and said this person's been accused, there hasn't been one day of a trial, in 2025, would you pardon them? those are hypothetical questions and any governor would never speculate on that because it hasn't played out and it's trying to jump ahead of the entire court system and i respect the judicial branches have got their job in the executive branch. one thing i know about the executive branch, we have everyone. when you're plowing the roads we're plowing them for republican, democrats, independents and that's the job i'm running for. >> i want to play something that one of your primary rivals, governor ron desantis, said about the maga movement. take a listen. >> a movement can't be about the personality of one individual. the movement has got to be about what are you trying to achieve on behalf of the american people and that's got to be based in principal because if you're not rooted in principal, if all we are is listless vessels that are just supposed to follow whatever happens to come down the pike on truth social every morning, that's not going to be a durable movement. >> do you share his frustration? >> i don't. our poll numbers are going up, not down. as people get to know us, they understand we've got a great message. again, about how we can tackle inflation that's choking every american family, how we can start selling energy to our friends and allies and stop buying it from our adversaries and how we can win the cold war with china. these are the important topics the president has to focus on, and when we're talking to people, we're excited. as our name recognition goes up, our poll numbers go up and we're very positive and we are absolutely working to create an alternative and an option for american voters to understand who can lead this country forward. >> it's been interesting to me in a couple of interviews plus the one we had now, you've been quite comfortable bringing up hunter biden on joe biden, and it's remarkably uncomfortable that you're bringing up the legal problems and the charges against donald trump. i get it. it's fear of alienating the majority of where the party is, but it's sort of odd. wouldn't somebody being charged with 91 criminal counts be somebody that you would want to see drop out of the race? should they even be running for office? >> well, again, chuck, the voters get to decide who runs for office in america and whether it's a local election or whether it's state or federal, the voters are the ones who ultimately get to decide. and, again, if we're going to live in a democracy, at some point we've got to trust the voters. >> i hear you on that. it's interesting that you don't want to share your opinion on this. i think some voters will be frustrated by that. >> well, chuck, everyone is at a different place. if i had 100% name recognition, if i was running before, if i was living in a major media market and everybody in the country knew me, that would be a different spot. i know from the private sector when we were launching our little company that we built over a period of time over a billion there are company, you don't start out by attacking the market share leader. you start by telling people what you've got to offer. you don't have a basis to launch that. there will be segment after segment this morning and all of the pundits will be lined up, and i'm not running for pundit. i'm running for president. >> let me ask you this. do you think you should be adding your voice to defending citizens who essentially are part of the law enforcement community, whether it's a threat against a federal judge that we heard from a woman in texas or the doxxing of members of the georgia grand jury, this is stuff that is trying to essentially shake the foundations of our legal system. do you think you should be adding your name to denouncing those efforts? >> well, we're adding our name to the very small list of people in our giant country of people running for president because one thing i know is that if we're going to move back and move away from name calling and threats, that's not leadership. leadership is about solving problems. leadership is about character and integrity. leadership is about bringing out the best of people, and it's about respect for others that have views different than you. that's why we're running and absolutely, when i'm president, we will lead with respecting everybody. we work for everybody. that's what we'll do. again, right now our job is to again not to -- it's not the critic that counts. theodore roosevelt said it, and we're in the arena and working hard to get to that spot. >> tell us what the success is on wednesday night. how will you know it worked? >> well, it will have worked if we get a chance to explain who we are, what we're about, and why we're running, and we're running to improve every american life, and we're running to bring out the best of america, and we're going to do that by focusing on the economy, energy, and national security, and these are things that matter to every american. >> you had to sign a pledge saying you'd support the nominee. you call those clubhouse rules. donald trump doesn't seem to take that pledge seriously, should we take that pledge seriously? >> well, you can take my pledge signed seriously, when i say i'm going to do something i do it, but for me, i'll be voting for republican in november 2024, but we'll do everything we can every minute of the day to make sure that person is me because i know when i'm president of the united states, we can take this country in a positive direction. we can have an election where people are actually voting for someone as opposed to against the other party. >> governor doug burgum, republican of north dakota, we'll watch on wednesday night. please stay safe on the trail. thank you. >> thank you, chuck. earlier this summer i traveled to fargo, north dakota, to sit down with an extenze ev interview with governor burgum, and we talked about a lot of issues under the sun and if you want to know his stance on the issues check out his interview in full on meetthepress.com and burgum got an unusual endorsement from a democrat. governor tim walls of minnesota. walls said i'm not a republican and i'm not going to vote in the republican primary, but if i did, i'd vote for him. walls was in iowa as a surrogate for president biden and he joins us now representing the biden campaign. governor walls, didn't mean to sandbag you there with your doug burgum endorsement, but you guys are neighboring governors. quickly explain your working relationship with him. >> doug is a friend, and it's kind of sad to me to hear the interviews asking all of the hard questions and we worked hard on things governors do, whether it's a flood diversion around fargo to make sure the seasonal floods of the red river don't hit and agricultural issues, but doug wouldn't answer the questions that need to be answered and you were asking what will come out of this debate the minute they step out on the stage the american people have lost. will they vote on who can ban the most books. he didn't tell you this, he signed a six-week abortion ban which is hugely unpopular. it's simply wrong in america. yeah, we're friends, but i hate to see him go down this road. those were important questions about the indictment, and it was a little bit tongue-in-cheek. i do believe doug is the most normal of these. doug's a pretty good guy, but he's trapped in a republican party with no ideas. >> let me ask you something about your party. here's dean philips who is part of the south dakota congressional delegation had to say last week. >> who would you like to see in this race. a moderate governor from the heartland from the four states that they'll need. >> gretchen whitmer, your home state governor, tony evers. >> later he said many of the people don't want me to mention their name on the record. i know what you've said about this effort that he's embarking upon and you said you support the president. do you really believe joe biden is the best candidate -- >> absolutely. >> -- the democrats can nominate or is this a political expediency? >> well, absolutely. first of all, he's been one of the most highly effective presidents we've ever seen. i've been waiting for infrastructure week. i spent last weekend on mackinac island with whitmer. this is not a debate about joe biden's age or experience. it's about a debate about protecting the democracy and you just heard the most promising of the republicans, and being back in minnesota and it's about being able to feed our children. i believe he has delivered and his record shows that and anything other than that is simply distraction. >> what do you make of so many -- what is it? fewer people want biden to run again and trump to run again, what do you make of that that joe biden seems to not have this groundswell of support right now? do you think it's all age? >> no. i think it's our system. i think donald trump and the republican party have poisoned it to people. no one trusts our institutions, no one trusts congress, and no one trusts any of us because all they do is attack our families and those types of things. at the end of the day, democrats understand if you want reproductive freedoms and move toward a climate change agenda that actually works and decency in the white house, you have one choice and that's joe biden. we will do it and we will deliver the swing states in the upper midwest and that's what governors everybody evers and whitmer and i have been talking about, and the fact of the matter is this isn't about joe biden's age, and this is about the democracy, and as we get closer to the election, they will see that. after wednesday and whatever transpires, the craziness of the stage, people will understand and get closer. >> i'm curious about this race. you brought up democracy and abortion, but you haven't brought up the economy. the economy on one hand it's statistically healing. on the other hand a lot of people don't feel good about it. >> yes. >> even in your state, waning housing, affording ability imperils and these high interest rates, people don't think they have purchasing power right now. they may be able to get by, but they don't have the purchasing power they thought they did just a year ago. how do you navigate that? >> first of all, it's a global phenomenon. here in minneapolis, we have the lowest inflation rates of 1%. we're starting to see folks start to recover from this, but the biden agenda has actually done more to tame inflation and to start to bring back manufacturing and to focus on high-tech chip industry and to focus on climate change and infrastructure than any other country in the world. there's angst in this. we saw an economy that lurched almost to a stop than any other country. it's telling a story. i do think this will be about the economy. you heard an interview from a presidential candidate that didn't say one thing that he will do about that. joe biden has. the c.h.i.p.s. act and the investments we're seeing and the i. rocky mountains a., it's working. >> in fairness i was asking him about donald trump and less about his economic proposals in fairness to him on there, but i take your point there. on the hunter biden situation, just 26% of democrats have a great deal of confidence in the justice department these days. as you pointed out, nobody is happy with our current systems whether you're a democrat, a republican, or an independent. what do you think the president could do to signal to the country that, hey, i'm out of the way here. hunter biden is getting treated the way anybody else would get treated. is there something he could do differently than he's doing now? >> i hope the justice department makes that case. look, i'm the parent of a 16- and 22-year-old. the bidens love their son, but they also know that he's got his struggles, and he's not on the ballot. joe biden is and joe biden's record is, and i think what he needs to do is let the system work, and, again, i'm sure he wants the best for his son, but if the justice system says, look, these laws were violated and here's the penalty for it that needs to happen. republicans saying they support law enforcement and why they allow, and you asked very specifically in the last interview about the attacks on the judges and the attacks on our legal system, it's a responsibility to stand up for that. if i thought joe biden or seen any proof that he was trying to influence that, i would certainly speak up. he hasn't done that. we still need to continue to focus it. >> it's pretty clear, whether we debate whether hunter biden broke the law or not, the influence peddling part with his last name is perfectly legal. what jared kushner has done may have been legal, the question is should there be an ethics code for presidential family members here? >> yeah. >> yeah. i think -- >> what would that look like? >> yeah, that's a broader issue. when i was in congress i was the chief author of the stock act and not trading on congressional knowledge. my colleagues hated it because they said i was poor and i was a school teacher, and it was not about that. it was about restoring faith in the system and not supporting me or not believing that we were getting over on something. so, yeah, i think that's probably -- and i think that's a great question, chuck, because it doesn't get at the tit for tat. when you talk about donald trump they talk about hunter biden. one's running for president and not on the ballot. we had the congressional ethics office that sets up. i just think that donald trump violated where you disengage yourself from all financial interests, that didn't happen, and then putting his family in the white house, totally opposet to it. i agree with you, something should happen there. >> governor tim walz, a former member of congress, appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective. >> thanks, chuck. when we come back, former president trump's trials in the middle of a campaign testing our justice system. will any of these trials take place before the election? we have a panel experts here from a federal and state prosecutor that will explain this cabinet. this cabinet so, you've got the power of xfinity at home. now take it outside with xfinity mobile. like speed? it's the fastest mobile service around. with the best price for two lines of unlimited. only $30 bucks a line per month. that's hundreds in savings a year when you wave bye to the other guys. all on the most reliable 5g network nationwide. you really shouldn't walk out the front door without it. switch today at xfinitymobile.com. welcome back. donald trump faces four indictments in just over four months in four different jury dix jurisdictions, and there are 91 total criminal counts, and let's unpack them. he added 13 to georgia. there's a sweeping racketeering case where they attempted to the overturn the state's election results. 18 trump allies including his former lawyer rudy giuliani and mark meadows face additional charges. prosecutors have proposed a march trial date. in charging trump to overturn the 2020 election, he rejected jack smith's council which was 13 days before the iowa caucus. instead, they proposed an extraordinary delay until april 2026 a year and a half after the 2020 election, clearly a negotiating tactic. joining me to make sense of this, gwen keyes fleming, former manhattan district attorney, cyrus vance, and an npc news legal analyst and former fbi senior official, chuck rosenberg. gwen, you're the newest to my table here and you're the most familiar with georgia's racketeering law. explain why she felt that was the best way to try this case. >> sure. so the georgia rico statute is one of the best tools that a prosecutor can use when he or she is trying to tell a complex tore that involves multiple defendants who did various acts towards a common goal and that's exactly what you see here in terms of the conspiracy to overturn the results of the georgia election. you have 19 defendants, all of whom had a part or are alleged to have a part in effectuating the fraud. >> on one hand i've read if it gets to trial, it's almost an easier guilty verdict than what jack smith's trying to do, but is it harder to get this case to trial? >> if it remains at 19 co-defendants, sure. that's cumbersome, but we all know as prosecutors that that number often narrows. many people who are indicted are better off if they plead guilty and cooperate because there are incentives built into all of our systems to do that. so, a, if they go to trial with 19, that's a big complex, cumbersome case, but, b, i don't expect that will happen i expect it to narrow. >> there is a lot of overlap between federal, between her case and what jack smith is doing. you've had -- you've had some interactions with federal government. you chose to stand down and let the fed goes first here. what's the dangers of her having stood down and not going forward and what's the danger of her going forward with a federal case? >> well, i think the federal case logically, from my viewpoint as a former manhattan da who had to address the state of new york investigating the same set of facts that charged the trump administration, and i think the january 6th case just kind of makes sense to me. alvin bragg, the da in manhattan, has indicted that he would stand down. >> you expect that. we expected that. he'd file a motion to say we'll wait to ask for a trial until after this? >> ultimately, i think the folks who have to make the decisions here are the judges because they are the ones -- we can see how important it's going to be for these judges to maintain their docket and the courtroom and i believe on the issue how disruptive it is the trump indictment. i think the judges can control what's going on in their courtroom and security, but outside, it's a different matter. >> all right. we have the proposed calendar as it stands right now. two of these are technically already scheduled, but we have a proposed january 2nd trial for the 2020 case, proposed march 4th for georgia, and march 25th for the new york case, and may 28th for the classified documents case. of these four, the likelihood that any of them are tried for 2024, i think it's likely that a case can be tried before the november election. i think it is highly unlikely that multiple cases can be tried. >> you think one. to cy's point this will turn on the judges and their ability to knowledge in the dockets and the motions and the discovery and all of the other things that can crop up in cases like this. so can it be done, theoretically? absolutely. it's truly up to the judges. >> chuck, to that point, though, it's also the judges managing trump, and obviously they are being very careful in terms of how they're managing his statements and some statements are outrageous and that's difficult than managing the docket and it's managing the external chaos. >> that's important, too, as prosecutors we know part of the job is maintaining the integrity of the case and make sure due process is filed so that if there is a conviction, it will stand and you're not putting up anything on appeal. >> let me put up something trump put up on the platform and ask if it would be normal. this is what he said about chutkan in october '22. she obviously wants me behind bars and very biassed and unfair and the lieutenant governor will be testifying in front of the grand jury. he shouldn't, if he weren't donald trump when would you expect there would have been actual action against him for those comments or not? >> i think we still need to wait and see. as a prosecutor, the case will still be investigated until there is a verdict. anything said that will help support charges going forward the d.a. could investigate and bring additional charges or in a situation where a defendant has been granted bond, you can risk a bond revocation if witnesses or others feel they're in jeopardy. >> do you expect the judge to be that aggress everybody or do you think it will be like judge chutkan did, all right, we'll begin the trial in a month? >> no, i like the way she's been handling it so far. i think of them on two separate buckets. attacks on judges and prosecutors, is unfortunate. i had it. attacks on witnesses is a very different thing. attacks on witnesses undermine the integrity of the judicial process if they're intimidated and harassed and worst-case scenario if they're killed and it's a very different thing, to attack a witness than a prosecutor. >> very quickly, can mark meadows be taken off this prosecution list because of the -- if there is known to be an cooperation agreement with the feds? >> that's up to d.a.'s discretion and we'll see. >> could trump be dropped from the case if there's a guilty verdict in the federal court and then suddenly could you see a decision, all right, we'll drop it? >> in the manhattan case? >> in the georgia case. >> i can't speak for georgia, but in manhattan, there is a question of what would be the necessity. >> of going at him again. >> however, my own view on that is you cannot look to the federal government to look into it and pay attention to protect state interests necessarily. that was certainly my experience in the southern district case. >> yep. >> i think after september 11th, new york said new york has to look after new york. >> all right. thises with great. i learned a lot. i hope you did too. before we go to break, the extent to which debates sway the minds of voters remains unclear and without donald trump, wednesday night's debate may matter las. in 1999, al gore and bill bradley vying for the debate, the front-runner, called for more debate. >> let's debate twice a week from now until the nomination is decided and just go face-to-face about the issues and get rid of all these television and radio commercials. why not do that? >> you know something? for ten months i was running for president you ignored me. you pretended like i didn't exist. now you want to debate. it's ridiculous. the point is now, and i don't know if you get this, but a political campaign is not just a performance for people which is what this is, but it is whether a dialogue -- >> that's not what i'm doing. >> -- with people. >> amazing. a front-runner proposes more debate than the challenger. when we come back, we won't see former president trump on the debate stage, but we will see him arrested and charged for the fourth time and how are they dealing with it. the panel is next. but blendjet■s back to school sale is in full swing! blendjet gives you ice-crushing, big blender power on the go so you can whip up a mouthwatering beverage wherever you are. enjoy 15 plus blends before rapidly recharging via usb-c. cleanup is a breeze! just blend water with a drop of soap. stand out even when you're accidentally twinning with our kaleidoscope of colors. don■t be tardy for this sale! head to blendjet.com and order yours now. every business that's why comcast business de is launching theal. mobile made free event. with our business internet, new and existing customers can get one year of unlimited mobile for free. it's our best internet. powered by the next generation 10g network and with 99.9% reliability. plus one line of free mobile for an entire year. it's the mobile made free event-happening now. get started for just $49.99 a month. plus, ask how to get one free line of unlimited mobile. comcast business, powering possibilities. when i first learned about my dupuytren's contracture, my physician referred me to a hand specialist. and i'm glad he did, because when i took the tabletop test, i couldn't lay my hand flat anymore. the first hand specialist i saw only offered surgery. so, i went to a second hand specialist who also offered nonsurgical options - which felt more right for me. so, what i'd say to other people with dupuytren's contracture is this: don't wait —find a hand specialist trained in nonsurgical options, today. i found mine at findahandspecialist.com. the panel is here. susan page, from "usa today," jonathan martin. lahnee chen, follow at the hoover institution and former acc stanford. and kimberly atkins stohr for "the boston globe." hello, everybody. we're talking debate politics and not legal shenanigans. i think we're all overrating the fact that a front-runner decided to not go to the first debate. i keep trying to remind people, george w. bush didn't go to the first debate in 1999. >> yeah, but this is different because this is the metaphor for this race, right? you have donald trump doing an interview with tucker carlson right before turning himself in to get bailed out of this indictment in georgia, and then you've got seven or eight or maybe nine people scrambling to figure out some way to get traction against him in milwaukee. >> you heard governor burgum there, and i -- jonathan, i'm not surprised by the answers he gave me on this. this is why he's been sticking to his guns. is that a viable pact? >> speaking about the illustration about the larger theme, what a great example of a missed opportunity this morning. you're on national television and you don't take an opportunity to say something about the big of the question, not only in this race, but in american politics and global politics, okay, which is the possible return of the former president, and you don't say a word about it. and i think, chuck, this really captures this, i think, very, very weak, weak field. where is the creativity? where is the imagination? where is the enterprise? where is the initiative? give us something. try something. take a risk. these candidates out there wonder why their numbers aren't moving and why this race is static, basically, well, you're not doing anything outside the box. the person with the biggest talent in the field is chris christie and obviously, he's frontally attacking donald trump, which, yes, hurts his numbers, but at least he's got something to say about the biggest question in the race. the other guys are basically walking on eggshells or say nothing at all and just buying time hoping against hope. chuck, we've seen the movie, it's called the last seven years in the party. >> yes. what did he call it? >> listless vessels. >> speaking of the irony now, the toughest ron desantis has sounded on donald trump and it's going to weaponized because it did sound like he attacked the voters and not trump. >> this why the memo, the leaked memo about defending trump, that i found confusing because this is really an opportunity for ron desantis to do more of that. >> you're supposed to take out vivek ramaswamy. >> yeah. >> that was just consultants -- >> no pressure. >> it's somewhat bizarre in the sense that this is going to be the biggest opportunity for any of these candidates -- >> let me put that memo up, by the way, while you're talking about it. the three pieces of advice he got, attack biden in the media, hammer vivek ramaswamy, defend trump from chris christie. >> one of them is tried and true, attack biden in the media, and i get that. the notion that you would go after someone who would be an afterthought in the race. >> he might be the next prime time host and to jonathan's point, he's actually doing interesting stuff, not to do. >> he's the one candidate that's not like the others, and it is -- >> but fundamentally then the challenge becomes if you actually want to take out the king, you have to take out the king. >> right. >> so this will be the opportunity for ron desantis and for anyone else to sit in that chair to do that. >> what's interesting, for ron desantis, if i think if he weren't such a bad candidate, what he was breaking on there could have been a good thing. he could have said, i'm envisioning the future of the republican party. it's not just about someone. it's about something and laid out what that future is no matter what happens in this race, he's still a young guy. he still would have a big future ahead of him, but he's just so bad at it and he flubbed that message so terrible they it turned into another deplorable moment. >> it is more an incumbent race -- >> i don't understand why they don't treat it like that. i completely agree. you have to treat him like the incumbent. >> frankly, some of these candidates are actually further from trump the de facto incumbent than if a democrat ran. >> donors don't like what they're seeing, susan. the glenn youngkin and to a lesser extent, brian kemp wish list, rupert murdoch, a lot of coverage this week. rupert murdoch claiming he wants someone else, and giving youngkin money, they'd better hope he has success in the midterms. if abortion is the main issue, good luck. but -- is there room? >> glenn youngkin? he ran a good race. he ran against a competitive candidate once. he signed an abortion ban that -- as did doug burgum who didn't talk about it. he says he won't get in until november. two of the four early states -- >> he can't get into their filing deadline and the skipped two of the first four. i'm sorry, this seems like a fantasy to me and a sign of what desperate straits some of these donors go through. >> we go through this in every republican nominating contest. >> democrats, do it, too. >> mitch daniels and chris christie will come rescue the republican party from mitt romney. >> yeah. >> this is the same discussion we have every time. the reality is it takes time to build this infrastructure in iowa. it takes time to raise money and it's very hard to jump in regardless of who you are or what your profile is and expect to run a competitive race. >> you know the last candidate who had the nomination handed to him? i think it was dwight eisenhower. you have to get in and fight. >> you don't think it was joe biden? >> no, i don't think it was joe biden. >> i was going to say, it was close to him at the end. >> i take your point on there, but it's interesting. brian kemp, as much as i'm sure youngkin is, he showed up yesterday and he's not the one running for president. >> i think this is a bad look for everybody that will be on that debate stage wednesday night that people are still looking. they're looking at all these people and they don't see a single person that the republican party can coalesce around and they're still looking around, and that just shows the terrible state. >> we are going to come back and discuss the other side of the aisle, but before we go to break, 114 people have now been confirmed dead in the western maui wildfires. nearly a thousand more unaccounted for, according to volunteers. 85% of the disaster area has been searched, as well. please consider giving to the maui food bank, the american red cross or the hawaii community foundation and these are groups we believe are worthy for your donations. for more on donations, go wherever you follow "meet the press" on social media. when we come back, there is a growing gender gap. women outnumber menned when it comes to getting a bashlor degree, and it will have a profound impact. "data download" is next. impact. "data download" is next. ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ welcome back. "data download" time and also back-to-school time. as college students start flowing back to campus, there will be a lot more women than men in the lecture halls, and it is a trend reshaping this country and our politics. 1970, let me show you here the trend data overall of those getting a bachelor's degree. as you can see, pretty steady increase from 1970, 11% of the population nearly 40% of the population now has a bachelor's degree or more, as you can see with millennials, you're starting to see a bit of a faster clip there, a faster growth rate. what's interesting is the gender gap. in the last decade, women overtook men in who has more bachelor's degrees and this matters in our politics. let me just show you overall. currently the role in college, there's nearly a 3 million gap between women and men. 56% of those enrolled are women. 44% are men. how does this play out in our politics? we already know there's a gender gap in our politics, mostly due to single women more so than married women when you look at it that way, but overall, men favor trump by eight points. women have favored biden by double digits. the degree gap is also a place that we've watched a lot. no college degree that has favored donald trump in the 2020 exit polls by two points, bachelor's degree or more. that favored biden by 12 points. the point is this. you're starting to see this. these gaps could even grow more as more of this gender gap shows itself on college campuses. when we come back, president biden stays silent on the trump indictments and the special counsel investigating his son. is it a strategy that can work in such a high-stakes campaign. n meet the portable blender we can barely keep in stock. blendjet 2 gives you ice-crushing, big blender power on-the-go. so you can blend up a mouthwatering smoothie, protein shake, or latte wherever you are! recharge quickly with any usb port. best of all, it even cleans itself! just blend water with a drop of soap. what are you waiting for? order yours now from blendjet.com before they sell out again! welcome back. president biden was asked about hunter biden at camp david at the start of a summit that will age quite well for his presidency getting japan and south korea and the united states into a defense pact, but i should play what he had to say about hunter. >> what is your reaction to the special counsel appointment last week for your son? >> i have no comment on any investigation that's going on. that's up to the justice department, and that's all i have to say. >> kimberly, this was an opportunity to defend the justice system, and he could have not said anything and defended the justice system. obviously he's not there doing that -- >> no. >> -- or they didn't want him to do that. it's leaving a vacuum. >> it's leaving a massive vacuum, and look, it's not just that he can talk about the justice system as president. i know the people around him are very skittish about him doing that. it's that he must. he's also a candidate for president, and one of the starkest differences between the republicans and him is that he defends the rule of law, and he defend the justice system and with his son in the middle of it, that's a perfect opportunity to say, look, i love my son, but i also trust the justice system and i know in the end the right result will come about, and all americans should have that same faith in that system. he keeps missing that opportunity. >> on the one hand they would argue, hey, he's president and frankly, look, whatever -- no voter will vote on this. >> right. >> but it is hugely important what he's pulled off with japan and south korea. >> yeah. i mean, listen, there are thai few things he can run on. i'm confused about the bidenomics thing, you're trying to convince them that their own impressions about the economy is wrong. they keep saying we have the c.h.i.p.s. act and we have the i.r.a. at the end of the day, you can't convince someone how they're feeling, what they're feeling about the economy is wrong and that's what the election comes down to and i get they're trying to have a proactive message when people simply feel differently. >> i know the charges against hunter are very different from the charges against trump, and we shouldn't make them equivalent, but against republicans is a huge great talking point to muddy the waters around the legal troubles that former president trump is in, and the current position that president biden is taking on this, this public position is not sustainable. his son will probably be on trial. there's every possibility he'll be on trial during this campaign and we understand joe biden loves his son very much and he needs to say something that governor walls said if he violated the law he needs to be held accountable and that's what an american president should be saying. >> the biden staff can't even get to the president about the issue pause they don't want to address a sensitive topic with the president. they've got a challenge. chuck, i think biden has basically got three issues where he's not figured out what to say. one is obviously the questions about hunter biden, his son and the other is what to say about the investigations into donald trump and the third is about his age. those are three issues that are clouding his reelection campaign. >> the one thing i want to pin the out, this stuff has taken a huge toll on him. biden, right before the 2020 election he was right side up which in our polarized politics is quite astonishing. trump and giuliani began to tarnish biden and turn him into the clinton name with the obsession over the ukraine businesses with hunter, and it's worked. his numbers look more like hillary clinton in '16 than biden '20. kimberly, maybe abortion is the difference there, that that will bail him out, but that doesn't look good for him. >> it won't bail him out on its own. to the point about focusing on the economy, yes, the economy is important. the two biggest issues is democracy, and the offshoot of that is the abortion issue. that's something that should be front and center of the message. yes, you have to talk about the economy and through that he can tout the achievement and boost that incumbency value, but he seems to be campaigning in a bygone era that he feels more comfortable in, that he wishes the world were. we have the president about to go on trial for attacking the nation's election. >> i mean, this is two people who are well-known commodities. at the end of the day, joe biden will run against donald trump and that's what this campaign is about. you might as well make it about donald trump now and that's where you have to go and win the election. >> donald trump is making it about biden. >> two people are under water. this h be one against another and so just get on with it. >> the democratic party, they're rallying around joe biden in part because they believe that that's the safe play, that's three yards in a cloud of dust to use a seasonal metaphor, chuck, what if that's the riskier option? you showed the numbers right there. the democratic party thinks biden is the safe play. just hope for the best and we'll get through the next 14 months and i'm not sure that's it. >> that's what the dean philips of the world are concerned with. terrific show. terrific panel. thank for watching. we'll be back next week because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press."\ "\e donald trump makes a decision on whether or not he'll attend wednesday's primary debate. we'll show you how his gop rivals are responding. meanwhile the former president has until friday to surrender to authorities in fulton county, georgia, and we'll have the latest on that possible timeline. plus an update on the recovery efforts in maui ahead of president joe biden's visit to hawaii later today. ♪♪ good