Convicted. Breaking news on the cost of a Dartmouth Case on what mark meadows is reportedly telling the feds. Our inhouse law firm is standing by with reaction to that. Later, the front other plans to give the first a bag on wednesday night. Sits down for an interview with Tucker Carlson instead. Republican candidate, will, her to talk about how to take on trump in advance of what is shaping up to be the weirdest, while, this debate week ever. With each passing week, with every new indictment, we are learning more about the kind of country that donald trump tried to turn us into after the 2020 election. A country, in his mind, where democracy is no longer the guiding principle. Where votes can be found, even when they are not earned. Where the Justice Department can be used to keep a failed leader in power. With each new indictment, the latest out of Fulton County, in georgia, were also learning more about the kind of country, in the face of all of that, as so far survived. We are learning more about the country that we still are. A country where equal justice under a law is not a lofty hypothetical but in actual it means more than anything. Donald trump continues to learn that lesson the hard way. After that grand jury in Fulton County indicted him in 18 codes dances week over an alleged coconspiracy to overturn the Election Events in georgia, he is now facing a whopping 91 Felony Counts in total. 91 with a friday deadline for all of these defendants to turn themselves in, next week means a trip to the Fulton County jail for the former president. According to the sheriff, it also means a mugshot. That will be a first in the summer indictment tour. Right now trump seems worried in a way that is, sort of, unusual for him. At least publicly. We dont know what he is behind the scenes. After promising four days he would hold a major News Conference tomorrow, monday, to finally unveiled the irrefutable claims of election fraud, he canceled. Citing the advice of his lawyers. Just think about that for a moment. For donald trump to back out and openly admit that he did anything at the request of his lawyers for one, that is a new thing. You can also only mean one thing, he is scared. Frankly, he should be. He is trying everything he can. From the old playbook, just dusting it off. Trying to delay trials. Distract and, of, course his favorite, paint the prosecutors who have charged him as political actors out to get him. Heres the thing. Your current legal predicament not entirely the result of individual prosecutors. They are simply doing their job. It is not the result of partisan politics. Most of the people testifying against him or republicans. Maga republicans many of them. It is a result of his own conduct. My first guest today was the Attorney General for george w. Bush. He is pleading with his fellow republicans to at least consider that the problem may rest with trump. Not with the prosecution of him for his, alleged, crimes. Go figure. It is worth repeating. Trump is in the situation because of the actions that he himself took as president. He is here because for different granaries, made up of ordinary citizens as they always are, decided that there was enough evidence to indict him on 91 charges. Even as he looks down the long barrel of the month ahead, to his fate is not up to one judge, the special counsel, or one District Attorney. It is up to the ordinary citizens who make of the juries in his cases. Citizens return these indictments of part of the grand jurys. Citizens will decide on his gill. Those other people who have the final say. That is equal justice under the law. That is exactly how the system is supposed to work. Joining me now former Attorney General, alberto gonzales. He served under president george w. Bush. Mister Attorney General, thank you so much for taking the time this afternoon. You have been outspoken on how the Department Of Justice is not biased against republicans. What should people understand about the judicial process, and the protections that are in, to prevent that political bias . Maybe those who havent worked in government at a higher, or even lower, level. I think that people need to understand that just because the facts of one case look similar to another case, that does not mean that there is going to be a prosecution. People need to understand that the difference are based upon facts, treatment of cases are based upon the facts. Upon the judgment and experience of the prosecutors. You may have one case a prosecutor very aggressive. They are willing to take a chance on being aggressive in the prosecution. And another case with similar facts in a have a prosecutor whos less experienced. Perhaps a bit more conservative. The fact that you may have a prosecution in my case and the prosecution in another case doesnt mean, at all, that there is bias. In this latest indictment in Georgia Trump in 18 others are charged under the r. I. C. O. Act. You said that you thought the District Attorney, fani willis, did a good job of laying out the case. You also said that there is a good possibility that some of the other defendants could flip, become cooperating witnesses. Which is often a part of the process. If youre not a lawyer you dont always know that. If you look at this, who, specifically, do you think would be the most likely to do so . Who do you think it is the most likely to go after . What i dont know is the kind of information that a particular witness the prosecutor thinks may have key information, key evidence. Maybe the support of the point that is the prosecutor has concerns about getting them into Court Getting into evidence in the courts. It is hard for me to gauge. Typically itll be hard for me to gauge who is wrapped up in a major conspiracy like this. In a major case. But maybe large in a lesser offense. Someone who wants to get out of this. I think that is who you will be looking at. That is who the prosecutor is going to be looking for. Again, based on the kind of information that the prosecutor believes that that witness may have that is vital. Could be critical to a successful constitutional case. There is also the argument that some trump allies and individuals who have been indicted or making Fulton County is not the right venue for this case. It should be brought to federal court. Mark meadows the former white house Chief Of Staff has the strongest argument to have the case moved. There are also rumors of donald trump himself could make that case to make that request. Do you also think he would have a strong case to make. He was a sitting president at the time. Again, yes. Their argument can be made. I do not believe that it will be the same strength of the mark meadows case. I anticipate the president gonna do everything he can to get the prosecution moved to federal court. I just think the treatment will be better. He also have concern about, quite frankly, if there is successful prosecution. He probably doesnt want to go to prison. He would probably rather be in a federal facility where his status as former president of the United States might give him additional benefits. I think he would really like to get it to the federal courts and leave georgia behind. One of the things that stuck out to me and reading these indictments, im not a lawyer but i did serve in government for two president s, the ways in which Jeffrey Clark a Department Of Justice official, trying to use the Department Of Justice and other officials to overturn the will of the people in the election. You have been a very focal defender of the institution and the people who work there. What was your reaction when you read about his actions and his efforts . But well, astonishment in anger. The fact that he would use that position, that power, in order to further this action, former president trumps wishes. This is what hurts the institution. When you have this kind of conduct. Its not based upon the rule. All it is not based upon expectation. How the department should conduct itself in terms of any kind of investigation, or prosecution. Which is to be fair. You want to hold people accountable. But, you want to be as fair as possible in making decisions with respect to individual conduct. You have said on this network that there should be cameras in the courtroom for the federal trial. A lot of people from both parties agree with you. Many democrats, certainly. Republicans, as. While it is a decision that would be, ultimately, up to the Chief Justice, john roberts. I dont know how well you know him, i assume you know him a little bit. What is your assessment of whether or not that is something he might consider . Or, seriously consider, and ultimately due to in this case . I have said in the past that i might consider cameras in the courtroom for this case. Generally, as a former judge, i dont really favor cameras in the courtroom. I think it does affect behavior. You do in this case though . I do, yeah well the reason why this case is different because this is a case, again, with charges, conduct against democracy. Against the american people. So, the stakes couldnt be higher. The other reason i think, perhaps, in this case, there should be cameras in the courtroom is because there is already a great deal of doubt in certain segments of the American Population about the criminal Justice System and about the rule of law. If they see, on camera, but donald trump has received a fair trial,. That he is convicted, based on the evidence, by 12 impartial jurors, perhaps those supporters of donald trump, critics of the Department Of Justice, will be satisfied. That in fact justice has been achieved. Of, course the part degree the pressure upon the Justice Department to get it right. I have confidence that they can do that. Those are the reasons why, i think in this case, Chief Justice might consider cameras in the courtroom. Again, because of what is it. Steak and because it might be reassuring to the american people. The outcome might be reassuring to the american people. Either way, whether they are acquitted or convicted, i think if they have confidence, a vote served to trial, the constitutional protections have been provided to this defendant. I think they will be satisfied. One of the Big Questions out there, and you have been a big defender of equal treatment equal justice under law, everybody can treated the same, is if donald trump is convicted and sentenced to serve time should you go to prison despite being a former president . I know we are getting ahead of where we are at this moment. What is your view on that in general . You are right. We are getting way ahead of ourselves. I havent really thought about a. If, in, fact he is convicted of the crimes torched biotech smooth and the Department Of Justice, i think he should serve time, quite frankly. There are people that, on january 6th, went to the capital, at the clear direction, but he did nothing to stop what happened that day. They are serving time. If, in fact, the crimes if, in fact, jack smith fix successful in prosecuting donald trump for the crimes and he is charged, i think it would be fair that you go to prison. We are a long way from there. Former Attorney General, alberto gonzales, thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. , thank you, jim. Our inhouse law firm of Andrew Weissmann and neil cartel joins me next on whats funny about needs to do to get some of these codefendants to switch. One trump highlight is reportedly telling the fence in another investigation. Later on the show former j. A. Glen fleming on all the things that make the georgia case differ from on the other. Plus, republican president ial candidate, will hurd, and how trump travel should be going after him out of the first row we can dm wednesday. We are just Getting Started in movie right back after a quick break. We needed it fixed right. We went to safelite. Com. Theres no one else wed trust. Their experts replaced our windshield, and recalibrated our cars advanced safety system. They focus on our safety. So we can focus on this little guy. Singers safelite repair, safelite replace. My frequent heartburn had me Taking Antacid after antacid all day long but with prilosec otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. For one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. One pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. After advil dual action back pain. Yo uh ha ha [dog bark] what . My back feels better. Before advil. New advil dual action back pain fights back pain two ways. For 8 hours of relief. Ive got Home Internet from tmobile. It only costs 50 bucks at tmobile. Just one cord to set up. Say goodbye to that truck. Oh, what a beautiful mornin. Oh, what a beautiful day. They wont raise your rates at tmobile. Youll get a great deal every day Home Internet from tmobile. Just 50 bucks a month. There seemed to be a few key things to know an owner to fully understand Donald Trumps visit for those who have been watching us rely on time. One is he demands unwavering loyalty. He craves it for other people surrounding him. At the start of his presidency, just seven days into his term, he infamously pressured former fbi director, james comey, to pledge loyalty to him. Trumps obsession to who was loyal are disloyal as a fixture of his four years in office. It dominate the behavior of a lot of people who work for him. It produced a neverending stream of headlines like the. The second thing to know is, as much as donald trump demands loyalty from other people, people who work for him, people around, him he gives it to you, basically, no. One asked vice former Vice President , mike pence. Three years of scandal, pence, literally and figuratively, stood behind trump. No matter what he said or did. In return for all of those years of steadfast servitude, loyalty, and standing, donald trump watched and did absolutely nothing when the January 6th Mob stormed the capitol chanting, hang mike pence. Trump even let the people who actually did faithfully carry out his scheme hang out to dry. Apparently untrue form, donald trump is not paying his bills. Stiffing the lawyers that he sent around the country to do all of his dirty work. Including the most loyal of them all, Rudy Giuliani. One sided understanding royalty that makes the new indictment out of Fulton County so interesting. The georgia case may test trumps ability to maintain the loyalty of his foot shoulders in a way that we have not seen before in these other cases. Unlike the more narrow federal indictments, the georgia indictments are sleeping. It targets trump and his coconspirators in one large rico, or racketeering, case. The former president is just one of 19 defendants. If youre doing the math there, it is 18 other people who could feel pressure to cut a deal with prosecutors. That is also 18 people who cannot rely on the possibility of a trumps second term for a pardon. No president has the power to pardon himself, or anyone else, for state crimes. Meeting this georgia case is uniquely designed to publicly stress test how deep some of these loyalties lie. Joining me now is the law firm of cattle and weisman, on permanent retainer for the show. Hopefully they agree to that. Neil katyal is the former acting usa the former fbi general counsel. I want to start there with the witnesses. One of the codefendants, they do decide to make a deal with prosecutors. How does that actually work . As a target of all of that, trump . Or could the target also the other high level codefendants . In terms of the targets it could be both. You are in for penny, in for a pound. You cannot pick and choose. If you cooperate, you have to tell the truth. The good, the bad, everything you know. Whether it is about yourself or any other crime that anyone else committed. You cannot say, by the, way im gonna tell you about my friends. Im gonna leave that out but i will tell you about my flaws. You also have to cooperate fully at the state and federal level. This is where fani willis and jack smiths aligned their interest. Jack smith is really helped, for the reasons you stated, by fani willis and charges. Those are not part noble. There is an extra weight on people, like Rudy Giuliani mark meadows, jeff clark. Those people are now feeling the pressure to cooperate. Because they cannot hope for a president ial pardon to get them out of trouble. I did not know that before, andrea, but if someone participates and flips, i should say, in the georgia case, that could be helpful to the federal case. Let me ask you, if you look at the list of 18 codependence, who poses the largest threat to donald trump on that list . I think it is all of the above. It is hard to say. Lawyers from any of these 18, john, would be advising their climb right now to think seriously about flipping and providing evidence. You do not have the ability to hope you are going to get a pardon from the president or from some republican president in the future. I would be looking, first, Rudy Giuliani. Obviously been steadfast and loyal to this point. But, trump is not paying its bills. That is, obviously, going to create some problems. He has a lot of exposure. I would also say mark meadows, his Chief Of Staff, who has kind of dance that dance for a long time about avoiding charges by, somewhat, cooperating with the fans. He, i think, is being called in georgia in a much more dramatic way because he is indicted. Can chesebro. All of these people are rich targets. Speaking of mark meadows and his dancing, just to keep going with neils analogy there, a new report this morning that mark meadows told prosecutors he didnt remember trump declassifying documents in the maralago case. I dont know how important it is. Also, what does that tell you . What does that read into that willingness to cooperate in other cases . He is a witness and many of them . This is the big mystery. Exactly what is happening with mark meadows and his sort of sinkslike character, as neil quickly says, trying to have it both ways. Where he gives some information hoping that if he partially cooperates he wont be federally charged. He, clearly, is giving some information to the feds. He has reported to have said that he offered to help donald trump go through his boxes and return the material that needed to be returned. Donald trump rebuffed him. That is clearly coming from mark meadows. At the same time, information came out that he, basically, removed very damning evidence from his book which is now very anodyne. The original draft was really much more damning. That seems to be coming from lagos rioters who would know that side of the story. I think that this is definitely more to come. Both fani willis and jack smith are basically going to be telling mark meadows, or have told him, you either are a defendant or ui cooperator who has pled guilty. It is one of the. Other it cannot be both. Just picking up on the mention of the book. There was new reporting as you referenced about an earlier version of meadows 2021 book mentioning the episode at Best Minister where trump showed classified documents to the Ghost Writers to give more meat on the bones and. The report saying he personally edited out because it in believe that trump would have possessed a document like that. I will leave judgment on that out there for a moment. Neil, could he be in trouble for that . Is that something he could face legal issues around . It is certainly possible. As the reporting says, basically, the ghost writer for mark meadows saw this fourpage highly classified document and that was in the initial description of the book. The initial draft that has since been removed. It could be removed because meadows said, i dont actually think that was true. It seems implausible given all of the evidence already have about that fourpage document. Remember, that is part of the basis. And it looks like it is the same document that was the basis for jack smith filing new charges against donald trump just a couple of weeks ago. I suppose he could try to say, look, i just dont believe that that was actually accurate. I dont see the documents that i want to put it in there. But it sure seems like a coverup, john. I think that does create the risk of additional exposure for mark meadows. The other piece of the story that mark meadows is saying there is no Standing Order for him to declassify documents. I think it is not all that surprising. All of us who dealt with Classified Information thought that there would be such a Standing Order. It is kind of like, basically, discovering their sugar in desert. Yeah, we all knew that. It is helpful at the end of the day. And the end of the day Donald Trumps former Chief Of Staff saying there is no standing declassified youve heard it now. Sugar and desert. Also, no Standing Order. Before i let you go on and ask you about this report. A trump was supposed to have a Press Conference to reveal all of this damning information. We suspected all doesnt exist. He canceled citing his lawyers. What did you think of . That do you think hes finally listening to his lawyers . What made him decide that now . The idea that donald trump has, as he put it, irrefutable, that is his term, evidence, that the election was stolen. But he decided hes not gonna tell you what it is. It is just completely a laughable. Whether it is under legal advice or not. Since when does he listen to lawyers . Look at the maralago case. He completely didnt listen to the lawyer saying, this stuff has to be turned over. In fact, hes charged with lying to his lawyers. I do think that he is listening to his counsel. At least for the immediate term, there is a reason. He is about to be arraigned in georgia, a bail determination needs to be made there. In addition, judge chutkan, its about two in the federal d. C. Case, decide on the trial d on august 28th. Of lawyers had to say, for the moment, zip it up. Do not do anything that is going to promote the judge. You know what . You are no longer the president of the United States. You have four judges overseeing. Yeah you are in a precarious position right now. Andrew weissmann, thank you for putting me on air sliding fees gale. I appreciate it. Next, the georgia case may be Donald Trumps Worst Nightmare from a prosecutor who knows plenty will it snow. We know Ron Desantiss Defense Strategy is to defend donald trump because a post from his super pac with posted online. We are in a bizarre Fantasy World right now. 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Ham. And if we proffer it, we know youll proffer it too. I knew hed love that sandwich. After advil. Feeling better . On top of the worlddddd before advil. Advil targets pain at the source of inflammation. When pain comes for you, come back fast with advil liquigels. For a while, this case was kind of under the radar with all the focus on the federal level. But georgia is so bad for donald trump for so many different reasons. First of all, trump is facing state, not federal charges here. And the president cannot pardon anyone for state crimes, no president can. So you know that that worry that you might have at the back of your head, that trump, if he is reelected, he could wave a wand and pardon himself, he and his loyal conspirators as well, for all of the crimes, well, he cant in georgia. The governor cant either. Georgia is one of a handful of state we are perils go to an independent both. And they cannot considered pardons until at least five years. And this is far from District Attorney fani williss first go at bringing charges under a rico statute. This is the 11th frequent indictment brought by her office and should be and this was one of many cases she prosecuted over her career, cases that were complicated and broad, and full scope in number of individuals charged. And in georgia, that is uniquely brought and carries penalties. Reading through the indictment, it seems like there is a possibility trump might see some of those penalties. We will see because in georgia if you like to State Officials about important fact or matters that you have received, you risk prosecution. And in georgia, john is on tape doing just that. As we discussed earlier, there are also 18 codefendants and cited alongside donald trump that is 18 possible chances for someone to flip on trump and help themselves and the prosecution. And finally, georgia allows cameras on the courtroom. So unlike the other cases trump is facing, the public will get a Front Row Seat to this. One is, this case is different, and not necessarily, not at all, in a good way if your name is donald trump. Joining me now is someone who knows a thing or two, many, many things about georgia law. And when Casey Fleming is the former District Attorney in dekalb county. Thank you so much for joining me here on set today. I want to start this, you know fani willis. You knew her years ago. And this is the 11th rico case that has been charged since became District Attorney. Why is that important and what do you think she could take from her experience prosecuting these cases . Nk she could anytime that youe handled a similar case before you have lessons that youve learned, and you carry them into the next case, so now she has done this, not only personally in her own career but she has come up from it being a younger prosecutor to obviously now being the elected d. A. But even in her short term as d. A. , you see that she has indicted at least 11 other cases, using this methodology. And it is a fantastic tool for georgia prosecutors that have a complex set of facts with multiple defendants. But you can tell that they are all working together. And the georgia rico statute allows you to tell the whole story, as opposed to just bits and pieces that might underline specific crimes that are listed in the act. One of the Big Questions out there, always and legal cases, is the timeline. And District Attorney willis says she wants a march 4th trial date, Governor Kemp says there is no way this trial happens before the election. Youre obviously not allowed to tell us what when the trial date is. But help us understand, what do you think is a viable time period here . Lets remember. Shes been investigating this case since she took office in february 2021. So if she said anything other than she is ready to go to trial, i think others would have criticized her. All of that due diligence, all of that timing, all of that deliberateness in the prep, in the investigation indicates, or is now making her ready to go to trial as soon as march 4th, just a little bit more than six months from now. Whether that happens or not really is up to the judge. And so, you will now start to see, as defendants turned themselves in, either this week, or god forbid if someone has to be arrested, we will get to an arraignment. The judge will start setting the schedule for motions and other hearings and things. And then, we will see how close to march we actually are able to strike a jury. What is appealing . What works for a judge in this case . Four defendants, theyre gonna want a delay. Weve seen that in all other cases. What is an effective argument they connect to a judge . I think when you have a charge like this that is against the public order, that is something that the judge is gonna want to ensure that the citizens and the residents of Fulton County, they their interests are protected. I think also the fact that you have at least alleged, individualized victim in ruby freeman. Also, it may be influential to the judge in terms of bringing closure to all that she has experienced. Judges are always balancing the expediting eight case along with defendants rights, though, so obviously as you hear from Defense Council about how much time they will need to rebuke discovery, how much time it will take to go through the witnesses, all of those things will come into play and the judges ultimate decision. Another big question, those of us who are not law a change of venue argument. Mark meadows has asked, requested to move it to federal court, which would be in northern georgia, different jury pool. Others may do the same. Aside from having a different jury pool, what advantages, or why would these defendants want it to be in a federal court, as opposed to a Georgia Court . Well, we will middle out m to avail themselves of certain federal defenses, maybe theyll try and immunity defense. I think the other thing, as of late, there are no cameras in federal court. And so, the state system has a lot more transparency for the ordinary citizens to see whats happening on a daily basis. And so, while mr. Meadows and presumably others are seeking this removal, i think we need to see what the dea is gonna say in her required brief. I think there might be arguments to the effect of, anything dealing with elections is outside of both the president as well as the Chief Of Staffs realm. In the indictment, it alleges that mr. Meadows offered to use Trump Campaign resources to expedite some of the counting in dekalb county. As you know, that may present violations, so really it raises the question as whether this is part of this federal role. So you see this argument from the d. A. To demonstrate that these actions were not part of the federal job duties, and therefore the case should be returned back to Fulton County. Very quickly, before i let you go, as we try to glean expectations, including people watching, there are 19 people charged here in this rico case, a number of them could be convicted, including president trump. Is it possible that individuals not trump could be convicted and served prison time, and he could not serve prison time, even if he is convicted. Is that all to the discretion of the judge . Its all up to the judge and its really based on the evidence that is presented at a trial. Thank you so much for joining me. I always wanted a law degree, now im a bit closer. Appreciate you joining me today, gwen keys fleming. Coming up, the first Republican Debate is shaping up to be totally normal, you know, other than the fact that the four times indicted frontrunner is not showing up, and has to go to jail, perhaps, later this week. Attacking trump at an event in iowa last month. This weekend, he got some applause. Ill ask him if he is sensing a shift on the trail. We are back after a very quick break. Taking antacid after antacid all day long but with prilosec otc just one pill a day blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. For one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. One pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. To help prevent bleeding gums. Try saying Hello Gumwash with parodontax active gum health. It kills 99 plaque bacteria. And forms an antibacterial shield. Try parodontax active gum health mouthwash. Tourists tourists that turn into scientists. Tourists taking photos that are analyzed by ai. So researchers can help life underwater flourish. 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They have been doing all these things that candidates normally do in the run up to the first primary season. But would you know that this weekend, a lot of them hornet lanta. Yes, that is Fulton County, sitting down for interviews with conservative commentator eric erickson, talking about things like immigration, education, and china. Of course, that is all happening in some sort of weird alternative reality, one in which a frontrunner who is facing 91 felony count and will be out on bail on four different restrictions by the end of next week is in a head by a mile. A cbs poll out this morning has trump with 62 support. We know that trump is unlikely to show up to the debate in milwaukee on wednesday night. He is planning to skip it. He put out a video of an interview with Tucker Carlson. And instead on x, a platform normally formerly known as twitter. Substantially over an estimated in terms of the impact by trump and his team. That aside, Fox News Anchor who is moderating the debate, trump is still, quote, sucking all the oxygen. Of course, he is. And yet, Ron Desantiss strategy as outlined by a leaked memo out of a super pac is to defend donald trump and attack Vivek Ramaswamy, i dont think thats where he thought he would be at this point. Like i said its a bit of a alternate reality. The point is this is not a normal primary. This is not a normal election year. Donald trump is everything but a normal front runner. But most republican candidates are for a variety of reasons, choosing not to make that claim. Former texas congressman will hurd is one of the few speaking of, and he joins me next. He joins me next g solutions. To not only enhance the fan experience, but to advance how the game is played. Nows the time to see what americas largest 5g network can do for your business. Type 2 diabetes . Discover the ozempic® trizone. 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So call unitedhealthcare today to learn more about the only plans of their kind with the aarp name. And set yourself and your future self up with an aarp Medicare Supplement plan from unitedhealthcare. This isnt charmin no wonder i dont feel as clean. Heres Charmin Ultra Strong. Ahhh my bottoms been saved with its diamond weave texture, Charmin Ultra Strong cleans better with fewer sheets and less effort. Enjoy the go with charmin. In a very large republican field, there have been a few candidates outspoken about donald trump as former texas congressman will hurd. And the reaction out on the trail to those attacks seems to be shifting a bit. Take a look at these clips from iowa. About one month apart, and see if you can spot the difference. Donald trump is running to stay out of prison. And if we elect [crowd chanting] i know, i know, i know, i know. Listen, i know the truth. The truth is hard. Donald trump lost the 2020 election, period, full stop. And he lost it [applause] he lost it because he failed to grow the republican brand into the largest growing groups of voters. Joining me now is former texas congressman and republican president ial candidate will hurd. Will, theres quite a contrast in those two clips i just showed. I wanted to ask you, you were in iowa about a month ago for criticizing trump. But on friday, as we saw, youve got some cheers for doing exactly that. Are you noticing a shift on the trail, and how people are receiving you . Well, jen, i want to make one slight correction to what you said. I think, i didnt get booed off stage. There was still a few folks fair. There with folks that clap. And there was people that didnt. It was the end of my speech. Heres what happened. At the next day, i was in the airport. People said, hey, thank you. When i was Walking Around the Iowa State Fair a lot of people would pat me on the back and say, thank you for being honest. And so, yes, i feel like things are improving and changing. Ive had a great time in des moines yesterday, earlier this week at the Iowa State Fair. And what people want is someone who is willing to be honest. What people want is folks that are not afraid of trump, who has articulated a vision for the future, and talk about the issues of the day that are impacting them, and not just focusing on Donald Trumps legal baggage. To your credit, i mean, you have continued to be candidate, whether it was just light booze, or however you want to characterize it there on the trail about trump and your concerns about him, and your views. I think this is still a political campaign, right, of many which urinary. Publicans, for them, the most effective argument against trumps he is unelectable in the general election given all the charges he is facing, or is it more of a moral argument that republicans should be making that he is somebody who shouldnt be considered given his been indicted four times what have you found to be more effective . What have you found to be more effective . The one thing i know is not effective is kissing his but like many of my other opponents are doing. If i offer free advice to the other candidates donald trump is leading in the polls and he is your opponent and kissing your butt is not gonna help you win. I think a mix of those arguments matter here is what we are learning. Theres a good chunk of people that couldve never vote for trump. And theres folks that like donald trump, voted for him twice, but still like him as a person. And dont think he has a chance in a rematch against joe biden. Chanc in a rematchthe fact that if thp a donald trump as a nominee, joe biden will win four more years of office. And i think people are recognizing that. And what i want to also remind folks is that the voting isnt set to start for about 20 more weeks. And a lot could change between now and then. And the fact that trump is afraid to go on the debate stage and answer for being a proven loser, the last time he won was in 2016. He doesnt want to have to defend his poor record. He doesnt want to have to defend all of these issues he is dealing with, his legal issues are self inflicted wounds. He doesnt want to have to defend that. And thats what im looking forward to talking about, not only his problems, but articulating with the gop needs to be doing, so that we prevent a trend that has been happening for the last 20 years, and that is losing the general election popular vote. I wanted to ask you about you have a National Security background. There is a lot said about ukraine by a number of candidates in recent weeks, specifically, Vivek Ramaswamy in an interview recently, he has been steadily climbing in the polls, i should note. He said he would make a commitment, he would recommend making a commitment that Ukraine Cannot join nato in order to end this war. I want to get your thoughts on that given your background . Well, when it comes to vivek, weve got in texas, all hat no cattle. This, to me, someone who is running to be the commander in chief, the leader of the free world. To think that is okay to negotiate with a war criminal, like vladimir putin, that is absolutely insane to me. The fact that we should be supporting our friends and not our enemies, and unfortunately, its been a number of president s over the last decade who always tried to reset the agenda with vladimir putin. It is impossible. Its not going to happen. We should be doing everything we can to support the ukrainians to win this war. And my definition of winning this war is pushing the russians out of all of ukraine, to include crimea and the donbas. And anybody who is saying anything else, to me, is just, it is especially, you know, when we win this, we should obviously be making sure that ukrainians join nato immediately. Theyre gonna have to be one of the biggest militaries, experienced militaries in the region. We should be having them as part of nato. We should be growing the alliance as much as we can. And it is unfortunate that someone that is running for president , or running for commander of chief would do such things. You said something in a recent podcast interview with Karen Swisher that i found very daring. You said your pretty awkward going up. I was also pretty awkward growing up, specifically in high school. You said you had a speech impediment. How did you overcome all of that . And what would you tell people who are maybe a young will hurd about how to overcome that and kind of reach goals as you try to percio birth to . I appreciated the offer. Not only it was a speech impediment. My head has been since i was four years old. I wore 14 size shoe. It was pretty awkward. I got made fun of and bullied. At least back when i was in school, the Bullying Stop at 3 40 51 school is over. Now with social media, it is even tougher. What i would tell people is what exactly my mother told me, may she rest in peace. It doesnt matter what other people think about you. It only matters about what your loved ones think about you and what you think about yourself. And it gets better. Now, i am six foot three, 240 pounds. I know the cia kid. Nobody messes with me now. But it gets better. I have a positive mental attitude. And i dont care about what those other people think. When you stop carrying, they stop bullying you. And that is something, thank god, i learned at a young age. Well, from one awkward highschooler to another, i think you have proven many of the bullies wrong. That is always good news. Former congressman will hurd, thank you very much for your time today. We are coming right back after a quick break. Stay with us. s what im talkin about josh allen is this your plan to watch the game today . hero fan uh, yea. I have to watch my neighbors Nfl Sunday Ticket. josh allen its not your best plan. But you know what is . Myplan from verizon. Switch now and theyll give you Nfl Sunday Ticket from youtubetv, on them. hero fan this plan is amazing josh allen another amazing plan, backing away from here very slowly. fan 1 that was josh allen. fan 2 mmhm. vo for a limited time get Nfl Sunday Ticket from youtubetv on us. A 449 value. Plus, get a free Samsung Galaxy z flip5. Only on verizon. Voltaren. The joy of movement. Age is just a number, and mines unlisted. 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New hampshires republican governor chris sununu will join me to recap the first Republican Debate coming up on wednesday, and talk about Everything Else going on in his party. That does it for me this hour. Theres just too much to talk about today to go. Which is why we have a special live hour coming up tonight at seven pm eastern time with some of my favorite minds and politics will be here for the debate, talk about the state of the gop race, and discuss a front runner whos gonna turn himself into the Fulton County jail this week. That is a sentence i never thought i hear myself say. Here we are in 2023. We will see you at seven pm. Stay right where you are. Because alex witt reports starts right now. Weve got lots of new ground to cover this hour. A rare Tropical Storm is moving in on Southern California and the southwest right now. The flooding could be catastrophic. Then, stunning new reporting about mark meadows, and something he cant remember. Congressman jim himes, democratic Ranking Member of the House Intelligence Committee would respond. Plus, its been called jaws without the shark. Expectations for that trump three Republican Debate