With Tucker Carlson will air, and theres even the remote possibility that trump could change his mind in the last minute and participate in the debate after all. He technically has until tomorrow to decide. Now, regardless of whether or not he shows up, trumps presence is going to be felt, since the issue of his electability in the face of multiple criminal indictments is one of the defining issues of this years race. On the other hand, the one place where the former president is almost certain to be spotted this week is at the Fulton County jail. Trump and his 18 other codefendants in georgias sweeping Election Interference Case had been given until noon on friday to voluntarily surrender to authorities at the atlanta area jail, and sources have told nbc news that the former president will turn himself in right next week. Headed by Fulton County District Attorney fani willis, the Expansive Racketeering Case has already caused Ripple Effects across the political spectrum. Trumps former white house Chief Of Staff mark meadows, who has largely been silent and out of the spotlight since leaving office two and a half years ago, has acted quickly in response to his indictment in the georgia case. Yesterday, his attorneys filed a motion to dismiss the charges, arguing in the brief that meadows is protected from State Prosecution due to president ial immunity. It is the second motion that meadows has filed in the six days since the grand jury handed down the indictment. Hes also seeking a move in this case to Federal Court a move that others are likely to try as well. Meanwhile, another defendant in the case is now facing possible suspension from Public Office for his role in the fake electors scheme. As alleged in the indictment, State Senator shawn still was one of the 16 people who signed a fake document, alleging that trump had won the 2020 election in georgia. Last week, he was among the 18 defendants charged alongside the former president in the Election Interference Case. And his indictment brings a process that could ultimately result in his suspension from the state senate. But still isnt the only sitting public official in georgia facing fallout from last weeks charges. The states current lieutenant governor, bert jones, was also one of georgias fake electors who signed the document, alleging that trump won. But the judge in the case previously ruled that the District Attorney willis couldnt indict him because of a conflict of interest. However, the prosecuting attorneys counsel, to state agency in georgia that supports District Attorneys in that state, has signaled that it will appoint a Special Prosecutor to determine if we jones should also face criminal charges. Joining me now is hugo lowell, political Investigative Reporter for the guardian. Hugo, its a real pleasure. Weve been talking to all these years, but you actually have you in the studio is fantastic. Thank you for your great reporting. There is some talk about Donald Trump Holding a Press Conference for tomorrow, in which he said, and we have heard this kind of story before, he is going to refute this stuff that is in this document. Now, ironically, this document is the georgia indictment. This document is the january 6th indictment. Theres a lot of overlap. So, i am eager to know what he was going to present, and apparently is not going to do that now. Well, i think that, aides want to know what hes gonna present because it was effectively from what we understand, a plan that was freelanced to the Political Team and trump himself by one of their Communications People on the team. And the idea was miss harrington, who is i think best described as someone who genuinely believes the 2020 election was stolen, kind of went to trump and said, look, i have all this research, and i want to make a Power Point Presentation or some sort of speech about it, and trump thought at the time it was a good idea until all of his lawyers and all of his critical advisers thought this was a terrible idea, and that would cause everything youre gonna talk about is detailed in these indictments. And if you start discussing this now, this is the sort of thing that prosecutors will come back to and pick out what you say and use it against to. Well hannity said the same thing the other day, and hes a big trump supporter. And he said, its better if he just doesnt speak about these things, because there are lots and lots and lots of specific charges and indictments, in order for him to get a fair trial in a jury of his peers, it may be best not to take that jury pool. In fact, the january 6th judge, tanya chutkan, has said if you continue to speak of these things, it may result in a faster trial, so that you dont mock of the jury. And both things are to his detriment, right . I dont know if trump really internalize that when he was first considering it. But as you say, in the federal january 6th case, if the trial goes sooner than he wants, that is prejudicial to him. His strategy is to delay as much as possible because if you can get it passed the election, he can try it upon himself, install an age that may be more differential. But its also the case in georgia. And fani willis has shown time and again, both the special purpose grand jury investigation, and the latest indictment, that she is not afraid to use trumps own words against him, the words of his aides, the words of his advisors, and jack smith the special counsel, did in his indictment the over acts and the racketeering case that the District Attorney in georgia laid out. Its all about his statement and what it was about. It is interesting because you wrote, you repulsed an article that you previously wrote, which was headlined, prosecutors may not need to show that trump knew he had lost the election. Trump asked the president ial candidate, and trump as the criminal defendant. It is an interesting point because if you read both of these indictments, you could come to the conclusion, and of course these are not trials. But you can come to the conclusion that there was a real evolution between donald trump who may or may not have believed that he really won the election, into a donald trump and his confederates who had decided they are moving forward with these schemes to put fake electors in with the knowledge that they have lost all the recounts. They have lost all the audits, and theyve lost all the cases. Its, and theyv i mean, the charges e indictments are different. The statutes being charged are different, right . The federal case, which the story was about, the Top Line Charge is instruction of, obstruction of official proceeding, section 1512. That does not require prosecutors to show that trump knew he had lost the election. It actually requires them only to show that trump would have gained an unlawful benefit of the Obstruction Taking place, and that was what he was trying to do. It wasnt about the First Amendment issue, i mean, those political speeches arent being charged. What is being charged is he tried to stop the certification from taking place by pressuring these officials, by having these fake electors. And that was absolutely illegal. In fact, in the opening of the federal charge, the jack smith charge, it makes very, very clear, in fact, it is in the third paragraph in which he says, the defendant had a right, like every american, to speak publicly about the election, and even to falsely claim that there had been outcome determinative fraud during the election and that he had won. It was also entitled to formally challenge the results of the election through lawful and appropriate means such as by seeking audits of the popular votes in states, or filing lawsuits challenging ballots and procedures. This is important because jack smith acknowledges this on the second page of the thing. You have the right to talk all you want. Donald trump and his allies are arguing that these charges are attacks on his First Amendment rights for free speech. Not at all the case. In fact he goes further than that and says, jack smith says, trump can even lie about all these things. Thats not a crime. There is a case in d. C. That has been adjudicated and pending trial by a judge. It is the case of this january 6th rioter. And in this case, the judge basically writes an opinion, after he kind of rules that he is guilty. And he says, believing that the election was stolen and wanting to write it, that is what you generally believe, but it doesnt give you the authority to then go and stop the certification if you are trying to get a corrupt purpose, a corrupt benefit, which is how the d. C. Circuit seems to be interpreting this statute in its appeals process. That is a crime. Hugo, we are so grateful to you. I cant remember the number of mornings where we have had discussions amongst our team. I dont think you are expecting a call from us, but youve got one. We asked to, can you be on velshi really quickly, because only hugo lowell knows those kinds of details. We are really grateful to you. Thank, you sir. Hugo lowell, political investigations reporter with the guardian. With me now is the former democratic congresswoman val demings of florida. She previously served as the House Manager during trumps first impeachment. She is now an Executive Fellow at the bipartisan policy center. Great to see you again. Thank you for being with us this morning. I have been wanting to talk to you because you have been involved in how this has all gone down. And now, to see both of these charges, the federal charges, the jack smith case, and then the much bigger 98page georgia conspiracy indictment, i want to get your sense of how this is all playing out, and whether you think these charges make sense given everything that you know about what happened on january 6th . Well, good morning. It is good to be back with you. And, look, to even think about a former president of the United States facing four indictments, to be facing charges under the racketeering statute, that was unimaginable until donald trump and his enablers came along. I remember when we were complicating the first impeachment case, whether to take the vote to the floor or not, i remember saying, look, this president , donald trump, is not going to allow us to not impeach him. Why . Because he is an habitual offender. He cannot help himself. And if he is not held accountable, america will pay the price. And here we are 41, sorry, 91 counts later. And so, based on what ive seen as an Impeachment Manager Serving on the Judiciary Committee and the intelligence committee, and watching this unfold, i am not surprised by this moment. But what i do know is i do believe that the prosecutors in the case, as well as both fani willis and jack smith, and the probable cause, if you well that they need to bring these charges forward. One of the things happening this week is gonna be the first debate of the republican candidates. Trump may or may not show up, probably not gonna show up, which makes the leading contender on the debate stage, the governor of your state, ron desantis. Hes a president ial candidate. He has been following very closely in Donald Trumps footsteps. A leaked memo which he denies has anything to do with his campaign suggests that in fact his strategy on wednesday night is going to be to defend donald trump and attack, wait for it, vivek ramaswamy. He tell me about ron desantis, somebody who you, know youve watched his political career and his campaign. He is not looking to tell people, im not donald trump. Hes actually looking to tell people, i am mostly donald trump. Ali, are you talking about the Law And Order governor from florida, who recently suspended the District Attorney here if you will, for not holding more people accountable in the criminal Justice System . Its all clear now that the more the American People see ron desantis, the less they see an american president. Look, people are very concerned about the criminal Justice System, working and being implemented as fairly as possible. But you know what else . They are also concerned about the economy, they are concerned about education. Florida Education System is still in near the bottom because, i mean, we dont even have time to get into what the governor has done in floridas Education System. We have an Affordable Housing crisis. What about more extreme weather within florida . Property insurance has gone up three times. The governor is not talking about those things because he really doesnt have a decent record to talk about those things. Instead, he says florida is the place where roe goes to die. And so, look, it might have taken us here a little while, but certainly the American People see that ron desantis is not interested in solving real problems. He is interested in following in trumps footsteps. But why would voters vote for the person trying to be donald trump, when donald trump is in this race, and leading by double digits . We are very grateful, because i have a Velshi Band Book Club here, and the florida provides most of our material because its a bit on a book banning tear. Let me ask you something, val demings, one of the things i enjoy talking to you about is that you are one of very few people who was in government, in senior positions, who was a Law Enforcement professional. It is going to be a Campaign Issue for republicans that there is a story out there that america is burning, that america is overtly violent, and that is centered around democratic jurisdictions. You, having been chief of police, what is the message that democrats need to put out their, in order to manage that attack on them . In order to manage that attack on them well, number one, ali, we are a nation of laws. Look, i enforce the law for 27 years, and i had the honor for seven years to help to write [inaudible] in democratic can you hear me . I still wanted this answer. But i have trouble hearing you. I got you back. Lets try one more time. I really want to hear this answer. Tell me i can tell you, based on my own experience, that Leaders Within counties, whether democratic or republican, cities, counties, states, they want to enforce the law and keep people safe and hold bad people accountable. But it goes much farther than just that. Yes, we can arrest people and put them in jail. But we also have to deal with some of the social appeals that cause decay in communities in the first place, like lack of employment, inadequate housing, substandard education. Looking at prisons around this nation, we know that the majority of people in those prisons are black and brown. But guess what . The majority did not graduate high school. So we need to make sure that education is solid, regardless of the community that you are working in. It takes a holistic approach. And every leader who is serious about leading and serious about the job of serving people know that. But you know, as a former police officer, police chief, and elected representative, while that makes a lot of logical sense, what you just said jimmy, that is a longterm plan. It is a policy decision, versus the we need more cops on the streets, when it comes to have more freedom to do what they have to do. How do you marry those two things . Im living in New York City where we have those issues, where people dont want to have militarized police, but they would also like to ride the subway and feel safe about it. How do you marry those two things and say democrats can do something about this in major cities soon, and then, later on, with what you said, which is a longer term issue, making sure people have the right social services, the right education, the right access to opportunity . We have to make sure that we are hiring the brightest and the best to serve as police officers. Look, the bottom line is whenever there is a crisis in a community, the police are going to be the first ones to get the call. So lets make sure that we are hiring the brightest and the best, hiring people who have a heart and a mine for the job of policing. And we need to make sure that they have the best training and equipment. Those communities that are looking at addressing Mental Health issues in a serious way, hiring counselors to go there you always still have to have the police because obviously, theres some element of danger, where and i wouldnt call it would not have been made in the first place. But making sure our men and women have the best training and best equipment, and not just have the best equipment, like you talked about, the militarization of police departments, but have a proper training on how to use that equipment. And theres got to be a partnership between the community and the police because the police is the community, and the community is the police. Working together, starting today, we can make our communities better and safer. Former democratic congresswoman val demings of florida who served as a House Manager in trump first between trial in 2019, thank you for joining us this morning. Thank you. All right, up next, Everything Hilary is turning in the pacific, making its way towards the United States. Were gonna have the very latest, next. You are watching velshi on msnbc. Mel. Sensodyne Sensitivity Gum enamel relieves sensitivity, helps restore gum health, and rehardens enamel. Im a big advocate of recommending things that i know work. 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All on the most reliable 5g network nationwide. You really shouldnt walk out the front door without it. This morning, we are switch today at xfinitymobile. Com. Following Breaking News out west has Hurricane Hilary makes its way towards the United States in the pacific ocean. California governor gavin newsom has declared a State Of Emergency in anticipation of the storm. The storm is expected to make landfall in baja california, mexico, later this morning before moving towards san diego county. Flooding is already underway in baja as you can see. Hilary is currently a category one hurricane, with maximum sustained winds, roughly 90 miles per hour. But the National Weather service is warning of, quote, catastrophic and lifethreatening flooding that would be caused by storm surge over the coming days. Residents in california have been helping each other make sandbags to protect from the flooding, but could face an unprecedented amount of rain, an entire years worth of rain in just 48 hours. Now, all of that flooding could spark damage of a different kind, creating devastating mudslides in areas that have already been battered by wildfires, which have burned out the vegetation. Were gonna keep an eye on the storm, and we will report more as we have it. Its vitally important that we all know whats in the latest Fulton County, georgia indictment of trump and 18 others. I read it for you. Its available now as a two part special episode of msnbcs Prosecuting Donald Trump podcast. You can just scan the qr code on the discreet to follow and listen now. You could also find it wherever you can get your pastas. Its called Prosecuting Donald Trump. After the break on velshi, we will take a look at what it takes to get pardoned in georgia. 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So should former president trump, a master at evading accountability and exploiting loopholes, will he finally face justice . It will likely take place some 540 miles south of where he attempted to orchestrate a coup in washington, d. C. , namely in atlanta, georgia. That is because the Fulton County indictment released this week poses a unique and formidable challenge for trump, partly due to the distinct setup of georges pardon system. Unlike most states where governors hold pardon power, georges system instead relies on the district five member panel to grant pardons. The Georgia State board of pardons and parole authorized by the states constitution, operates on a timeline that does not favor donald trump if he is convicted. The panel only considers applications a minimum of five years after a sentence has been completed. This stands in contrast to the federal framework where president can issue a pardon, upfront, even before any indictment or prosecution has taken place. However, if he is elected, or reelected, some experts say trump could argue that a sitting president Cannot Face State charges while in office. Additionally, trump and his legal team are expected to try and transfer the state case to Federal Court. Now, all of this is to say that we are in Uncharted Waters, and any possible outcomes remain untested. So far, calls by trump loyalists, urging the governor of georgia, brian kemp, to revamp the pardon rules have gone nowhere, overhauling the parole board would require a constitutional amendment in georgia, and detailing a two third General Assembly vote, and securing a Majority Voting Support and a referendum, which is a virtual impossibility, without substantial democratic backing. Kody, holocene it visor to governor kemp, appeared to shut down calls from Trump Supporters to enter the states constitution. Speaking to the Atlanta Journalconstitution on thursday, kemp compared the current calls to open the decades old pardon and parole law to the farright attempts in 2020 to arrange a Special Session to overturn President Bidens win in the state. Quote, where have i heard a Special Session changing decades old law and overturning constitutional precedent before. What are people hoping to learn in the second kick of the election losing newell mule, and quote. Now, even if the republican ranks could muster enough votes to push through this change, camp who is now in his second term is not likely to rally behind the effort. The georgia governor and trump parted ways in 2020 after he rejected trumps claims of Election Fraud in the state, not to mention trumps recent attempt to and seek kemp from office last year. Attempt to a nd seek Kemp Fro Office Last Yeshould Trump Findf convicted on the array of 13 state felony charges, could stand behind bars. Some of the charges carry a mandatory minimum prison sentences. Ultimately, the biggest challenge for trump, however, maybe the fact that he lacks any of the qualities at the parole board seeks when considering pardon requests. Accountability and remorse for once actions. For more on this, i am joined by quinn yeargain, a constitutional law expert and Professor Of Law at the university. Good to see you. Thank you for joining us. Lets start with this idea that Trump Lawyers have this thing in which they try and get the case moved out of certain jurisdictions in this particular case, they would like it to be moved to Federal Court. Fani willis, the District Attorney in Fulton County, has hedged the removed because shes got two charges in this document alleging conduct that took place on september 7th, 17th, 2021, long after donald trump left office, in order to prove that trump continued his conduct in his capacity as a private citizen. Just for people who dont know, on that day, donald trump is accused of urging Georgia Secretary Of State Brad Raffensperger to decertify the election and announce trump as the true winner. Now, a group of people from the brooklyn institution, in analysis last year, also backed this up. They said that stated simply, soliciting and then threatening senior state officials to alter the outcome of a president ial election does not bond with any who isnt concept of the scope of president ial power, neither the constitution nor applicable federal statutes unless the president with any authority to interfere with the administration of the georgia election. I would love your take on this. Well, it is absolutely the case that these kinds of removals into Federal Court in criminal cases are comparatively rare. And it is certainly, as you said a few minutes ago, Uncharted Waters for the idea of a former president facing criminal charges first off at all. And second of, being in a situation where there are charges in state court that hes trying to move into Federal Court. A lot of people have different views on the likelihood that he is going to be a successful in that regard. But the only real effect is that its going to change the nature of the jury pool and the judge who is hearing it. If the case is in Fulton County and a local jury, it will return to the Northern District of georgia, which is much broader, the jury pool could be different. It could be wider, more conservative. But the charges are not themselves changing. It does not alter his ability to pardon himself in anyway. It just gives him a potentially more favorable jury pool. Lets talk about this state board of pardons and paroles. It offers somelimited exceptions to the five year waiting period, mainly for people who can demonstrate the need for a pardon, either for immigration or ironically, for employment purpose. I guess donald trump could say, hey, for employment purposes, i just won the election as the president of United States, so i need this pardon. Is that a possibility . Again, we are in Uncharted Waters. There is never been an answer to all of this. The standard is that, it is detrimental to his livelihood by delaying his qualifying for employment in his chosen profession. It is not the case, for example, though, that a conviction on a Seat Criminal Charge would necessarily delay his ability to qualify as president. You know, we would really be in Uncharted Waters if he was found guilty, before he was inaugurated. And then, we are dealing with a situation where he has been sentenced hes going to prison, and then hes also been elected president i dont think that there is anything that would necessarily bar him from serving as president in a case like that. So, at that exception does not at least, at an initial reading in any way, suggests to me that it would apply in this particular case. Rticular case. But, again, Uncharted Waters. We havent dealt with Something Like this before. And i guess, even though it is Uncharted Waters, everybody involved is gonna want to be perceived as being as absolutely fair as possible, so as not to be accused of being political in this. I have a question for you about the purpose of an official pardon in georgia, and how that contrasts with the federal pardon. It does not, in georgia, expunge, remove, or erase the crime from your record, according to a statement from the board, compared to a state pardon, which is an official order for forgiveness. Is there a distinction between a federal pardon and estate pardon as far as you know . It relates to the civil rights that somebody has in state law sometimes. But for trumps purposes, if his goal is to avoid prison, or to avoid this on his record, for whatever reason, i dont see a material difference between the two things from his perspective. Thank you for joining us, quinn. As you say, this is uncharted territory, but it is useful to delve into it. We are here now. Quinn yeargain its a constitutional law expert and Assistant Professor of law at why no university. Quick programming note, tonight, i would be hosting special coverage. Join msnbcs maggie hassan, ayman, alicia menendez, and reverend al sharpton, and made for analysis of the gop reckoning, with republicans facing several moments facing several charges and the first debate on wednesday. That is tonight, eight pm eastern, right here on msnbc. But first, did you know that russia tried to land on the Moon Last Night . Emphasis on tried. I will explain russias latest failure when we come back. Inspiring music start your day with nature made. 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All this as ukrainian Officials Say that seven people were killed and 144 more wounded, following Russian Missile strikes on the Central Square in the city of chernihiv. The Central Square is not a military target. The city is about 100 miles north of the capital of kyiv. Officials say the attack coincided with an unorthodox catholic holiday. And as people were leaving church, it occurred. Chernihiv is close to the russian and belarusian borders was captured by russia during the early days of the war, but has been backed, back under ukrainian control since april of 2022. Now, this comes as Drone Attacks on and around moscow, which russia blames on ukraine, continue to cause damage and destruction. And speaking of moscow, and underscoring the massive decline in rushes once proud and powerful space program, russias First Lunar Mission in 47 years, failed in spectacular fashion yesterday. According to russias space agency, the spacecraft spun out of control, crashed onto the moons surface, and quote, ceased to exist, end quote. Speaking of the flight in a more positive like, the United States has granted approval for denmark and the netherlands to send American Made f16 fighter jets to ukraine. Although ukrainian pilots will need at least six months training on them. That announcement came as President Biden was hosting his south korean and Japanese Counterparts at camp david for an historic summit. The leaders announced new Security Agreements including a series of highlevel trilateral meetings, trilateral military exercises, and regional data sharing. Now, this is really, really important because historically, south korea and japan do not get along, stemming from japans imperial rule over the korean power insulin peninsula presecond world war, and japan forced Sexual Slavery of south korean girls during that time. The Fulton County District Attorney fani willis is using what is known as the r. I. C. O. Statute. That is to prosecute trump and 18 other defendants. The legal strategy that she has used before in great success. I wouldnt want to be part of this and i. Make sure to check out the special two part episode of msnbcs Prosecuting Donald Trump podcast. You could use that q r code on your screen to scan it. I read the Fulton County, georgia indictment of donald trump and 18 others work forward. Just scan that q r code on your screen, you will get it wherever you get your podcasts. Its built to command attention. Its not just a comfortable interior. Its a quiet refuge. Theyre not just headlights. They light the way forward. The new fully electric audi q8 etron models. The company goes to the firstborn, audrey. The Model Train Set is entrusted to todd. Mr. Marbles will receive recurring deliveries for all of his needs in perpetuity, thanks to autoship from chewy. I always loved that old man. 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Here, ill take that woohoo ensure max protein, 30 grams of protein, 1 gram of sugar. Enter the 10,000 powered by protein max challenge. Georgia has been on everyones mind after Fulton County District Attorney fani willis with the port in 98page indictment against the already twice impeached, frequently charged, Disgraced Insurrectionist Former president , and 18 of his confederates. The charges in it fall under georgias expensive racketeering law, known as the racketeer influenced and corrupt organizations act, or r. I. C. O. , for short. They nachman electors that trump and his inner circle who are part of a criminal organization and an enterprise that operated across multiple states. And while each of the acts alleged in the indictment may not be criminal in and of themselves, they could be ghost as a basis in a r. I. C. O. Prosecution if, as almost every act alleged in this Charging Document says, those were in furtherance of the underlying conspiracy. Now, the r. I. C. O. Statute is typically used to bring down high profile groups like mob bosses, gangs, and drug dealers. Willis is no stranger to using this. In fact, according to the washington post, r. I. C. O. Cases in Fulton County have reportedly exploded during willisss tenure as District Attorney. Long before going after trump for trying to overturn georgias Election Results in 2013, when fani willis was an assistant District Attorney, she employed a similar strategy against nearly 30 educators involved in a widespread standardized test cheating scandal. That case also Saw Willis Flex her legal muscle in unprecedented ways, managing to secure an indictment against more than two dozen educators, including administrators, principles, and teachers, and even a School Secretary air. The states probe followed an investigation published by the Atlanta Journalconstitution in 2009, revealing statistically impossible increase for test scores in the atlanta area. The investigation also unearthed that School Officials brushed aside internal irregularities and retaliated against whistleblowers. The former governor sunny purdue responded to the expose by appointing a special investigative team. And it found rampant cheating in 44 out of 56 schools. And investigators concluded that superintendent Beverley Hague was at the epicenter of what they called a, quote, culture of corruption, end quote. According to reports, they likened her to a, quote, mafia boss who demanded fealty from supporters. Ultimately, willis took 12 cases to trial and she secured convictions in 11 of them. Fani willis asserted that Superintendent Hall and her associates exploited the legitimate School System to carry out an illegitimate act, cheating. Now, Public Opinion on this case remains deeply divided. And some accuse willis of overreach. Willis did not, the point here though, she did not concoct this r. I. C. O. Approach for donald trump. She is well known for it. And her record likely does not bode well for the former president on this, his fourth criminal indictment. In fact, general greg, president of the atlanta naacp, and one of the Defense Attorneys in that atlanta cheating case i told you about, told the guardian this week that trump is in for a rude awakening, saying, quote, i think its gonna be very surprised when he is sitting across from her for months on trial. He would find out how great of a lawyer she really is, end quote. After the break, im joined by two people who know the ins and out of this matter better than most. Democratic state representative Tanya Miller Of georgia, a former prosecutor in Fulton County who knows fani willis. And fred smith junior, a Law Professor Specializing In Constitutional law. josh allen is this your plan to watch the game today . hero fan uh, yea. I have to watch my neighbors Nfl Sunday Ticket. josh allen its not your best plan. But you know what is . Myplan from verizon. 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You really went all out didnt you . Um, its called commitment. Could you turn down the volume . Here, you can try. Get way more into what your into when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. Before the break, we were discussing Fulton County District Attorney fani willis indictment of trump and 18 others. To prosecute them, fani willis is using georgias anti racketeering law, known as the r. I. C. O. Statute, which in the past has been reserved for going after, at least in the way we talked about it, reserved for going after mafia leaders, against, and drug leaders. Joining me now, Tanya Miller Of, georgias former federal prosecutor, former prosecutor in Fulton County. She knows the District Attorney fani willis. Also with me, for smith jr. , Professor Of Law at emory university, specializes in constitutional law. Welcome to both of you. Representative smith, i guess one of the things i want to do here is bust this myth that its all actually about gangs. What makes georgias rico statute unique is that you dont actually have to find a criminal enterprise. Willis, speaking to jurors in the teachers cheating scandal, seemingly described it this way, she said you do not under rico have to have a formal sit down Dinner Meeting where you eat spaghetti. But what you have to do is to be doing the same thing for the same purpose. You all have to be working towards that same goal, which ultimately does not need to be criminal. Yes, thats absolutely right. Enterprise is defined very broadly under georgia law. It could be a person. It could be persons. It could be legal businesses. It could be illegal businesses. It could be government agencies. It can be three, four, five people who just get together and decide they want to Work Together toward a common purpose and agreed to commit Crimes Inference of that process. Its very broad. And we talked about this earlier in your program. Rico its particular, in georgia, particularly broad, more so than the federal version of rico, because it isnt just crimes that can form the basis of racketeering activity. It could be acts involving crimes, threats involving crimes. So, it really could get at conduct that is not necessarily on its face criminal. We see that in this indictment. This is really important because having wrights indictment, there are a lot of acts in it, fred, that on the face of it, so and so they called soandso and this hour. Theres nothing in the face of that that would be criminal. But it says at the end of every act, this was an over acting in furtherance of the conspiracy. So the point is now, if you are trying to get to a conspiracy, the fact that you made a phone call to friend smith, say, fred, meet me at noon, we have to talk. That starts to become involved in the story of the conspiracy. Thats right. So long as the action was in furtherance of that same goal, it can count. Now, of course, there does need to be illegal activity, a pattern of illegal activity, which under georgia law, is to crimes that are listed in a particular state statute. But all other actions that may not themselves be illegal so long as they were in furtherance of that same scheme, that same legal goal akin to let me ask you, representative, to explain to the average person who does not have legal training, and does not know the specifics of georgia law, how georgia could include in its indictments acts that were committed in other states. This has references to things done in arizona, things that were done in michigan, and some things that were done in pennsylvania. Where does that Authority Come from . And how does that play into whats considered an overt act versus committing an actual crime in georgia . That is really the point of this statute, ali, right . It comes from the law itself. And the law is designed to get at conduct that crosses lines. So it doesnt have to include Fulton County. It doesnt have to all occur in georgia. So the whole point of rico its to get at concerted action by individuals no matter where they are, no matter what they are doing, if they are breaking the law and the process, too, in furtherance of some enterprise, to reach a certain common goal. Because of that, these cases can be plant so broadly. And because they are planned so broadly, it allows the prosecutor to introduce that Trial Evidence that tells a complete story. This is why prosecutors love to use the statute. You are not talking about just the elements of one particular crime. You are essentially orchestrating the entire, presenting to the jury and the world, the entire story of this criminal activity. All of the people involved, everywhere they went, and everything they did, and the law would support you doing it. Its a long read, and ive read it for people who just want to download it and here it. But it is a lot of that kind of detail. It tells you, its like a movie script, more than it is a Charging Document, because it tells you all of the movements. Fred, let me ask you, there are some additional advantages to georgias rico law. Federal rico allegations need to show continuity, meaning a series of related acts over an extended period, not necessarily just a few weeks or months. Georgia Supreme Court has made it clear that there is no such requirement in state law. In addition, georgia also establishes that false statements or writings is a predicate act for racketeering. So trumps phone calls to officials in georgia, for example, would not be predicate crimes under federal leak ricotta loss, but could be under georgias laws. And i think that last point is particularly important. When you look to the federal law, and you look to the list of crimes that qualify, and then when you look to the georgia law, which is 16 14. 3. When you look to the actual list of crimes, it is much, much broader under georgia law. And the false statement in particular is important. Everyone remembers that phone call that the president made to the secretary of state, especially the one about finding 12,000 votes. Perhaps equally important is the false statements that he made to a government official, that according to the indictment, he knew it was false. That is, that qualifies, the statements that were made is a testimony to the Georgia House subcommittee, and the Georgia Senate subcommittee. Those false statements, they all qualify under rico. Were gonna need to watch a Law And Order georgia version to follow all the differences in georgia law. But i appreciate both of you making it a lot clearer to our audience. As a Democratic State representative Tanya Miller Of georgia, and friend smith junior, a Professor Of Law at emory university. Ahead, what to expect this week out of georgia in the coming days with the former president is expected to turn himself in. Another hour of velshi begins right now. And good morning to you. It is sunday august 20th. I am ali