Night, stopping such a coward. As the indicted front runner backed down from the debate, guess which candidate has a bait plan to defend him onstage. California faces its first ever Tropical Storm watch in the history of the state, as a catastrophic effects of Climate Change range on. All in starts right now. Good evening from new york, im chris hayes. The Department Of Justice is requesting severe penalties for five members of the farright gang, the proud boys, convicted on some of the most serious charges weve seen in connection with the january 6th attack on the capitol. Not to be clear, this is the second group of Violent Conspirators in the Capitol Attack that the doj has successfully prosecuted. Over the past year, prosecutors secured convictions of six members of another group, the oath keepers. On the rare and serious crime of Seditious Conspiracy. The groups founder and leader, Elmer Stewart rhodes the third, the guy there, you see there. Hes now serving an 18year prison sentence. The longest yet in a january 6th case. But the request from federal prosecutors in the proud boys cases even harsher. The doj is seeking sentences of 20 to 30 years in prison for. Enrique tarrio, who they described as quote, Savvy Propagandist and Celebrity Chairman of the the government requests 33 years. Tarrio was the only of these five codefendants who is not actually present it to the Capitol On January 6th but prosecutors say the only reason he did not march alongside the others is because he was erected upon his arrival in washington d. C. And placed under a court order to leave the district. Tarrio orchestrated a conspiracy by provoking a desire for Political Violence among his followers. Creating a subgroup he called the ministry of selfdefense, and filling it with man he could trust. Inflaming the group with rage against line for smith and then turning it loose on the capitol. A jury convicted him of Seditious Conspiracy as well as five other counts. Prosecutors are asking the judge to increase his sentence for those crimes, with something called the terrorism enhancement. The doj is making the same ask for tarrios codefendant, a man by the name of joseph biggs, also convicted on the same six counts. They also want biggs to serve 33 years. For his role as a quote, vocal leader, and influential proponent of the groups shift towards political violent. Bigs they say, acted as the tip of the spear throughout the attack on january 6th. He was among the first wave across the first street barrier. He was among the first riders at the capital of breach for. He reentered a second time and travel directly to the seventh chamber. Prosecutors are requesting a 30 year sentence for proud boys, zachary rehl, government says that he led a march of approximately 200 through the Washington Monument to the Capitol On January 6th. He also encouraged riders that the initial breach, yelling, fm, storm the capital. And personally assaulted Law Enforcement officers with a chemical irritant spray while he was on the grounds of the capitol. Ethan nordean, another leader of the proud boys on january 6th, convicted of the same crimes. Prosecutors want to serve 27 years in prison. He also led that group of 200 men to the capitol. According to prosecutors he immediately moved to the forefront of the throng and took action by tearing down the fence. He later stopped the front of the line, marching back and forth, as though he was a general of the army. Finally, youve got one of the most infamous figures from january 6th, you may recognize from the video of that day. Proud boy, dominic pezzola, he was the first person to breach the capitol building. Smashing open a window with a riot shield hes stolen from an officer. [screaming] now, interestingly enough, pezzola, the guy you saw there smashing that window. He was acquitted to the charges of Seditious Conspiracy. He was convicted on several other accounts, that included assaulting, resisting, or impeding officers. Governor they say was one of the proud boys most violent members on january 6th. Now, doj knows they are asking for stiff penalties. They argue those penalties are warranted. They say, and i quote them here, the Justice Systems response to january 6th will impact whether that day becomes an outlier or a watershed moment. The atlantic pointing out that by nearly every measure, Political Violence is seen as more acceptable today than it was five years ago. The government concludes, quote, left unchecked, this impulse threatens our democracy. Now, the question that looms over each one of these january 6th cases, and there are over 1000, is how to produce a sufficient deterrent effect, so we never see this again. I mean, theres a bunch of reasons why we punish people fourth crimes, typically. We think of them in a few different buckets. We do it for retribution, we do it to remove very dangerous people from the general population, but at least to me, the most important reason, and particularly in this case, is to deter other people from doing the same thing. One of the key things that we know about deterrences best summed up by the great enlightenment thinker, cesar beccaria, who says, crimes are more effectively prevented by the certainty than they severity of the punishment. If the certainty of being punished, when youre calculating whether to commit a crime, that is going to deter people not the severity of the sentence, am i going to get knob to, not how long will i have to serve in person. The reason thats an important principle is that here in the u. S. , we tend to get this wrong. In fact, we tend to get it exactly backwards here. Punishment here is actually quite uncertain. For one example, we are among the worst countries in the industrialized world at solving murders. In some cities, more than half of people who commit murder or never found or apprehended. At the same time, our sentences are much much more severe than our peers. Not really even in the same category. A recent report found the u. S. Average sentence of 12. 2 years was double the next highest nation, hungary, which had an average sentence of six years. When it comes to january 6th, we need to be, i think, laser focused on this question of deterrence. Because it simply cannot be the case that if you try to overthrow the government, you fail, then you just go home, and you wait around for your next chance. Everyone has to know that. If you fail, you will be punished. So in my mind, what is so important about the sentences, particularly of these key figures, is not how long they are. Honestly, it doesnt really matter to me whether Enrique Tarrio serves 33 years or ten years. What does matter is that theyve been apprehended, theyve been tried, that they are now going to be punished. Same for the oath keepers. But we still have got a problem with certainty of punishment. It has been applied pretty well to everyone in the bottom 95 of the criminal pyramid on january 6th. The outstanding question, of course, is those at the top. It took two and a half years after the insurrection for charges to be brought against the leaders at the top. 19 of them in the georgia case, including donald trump, now have just seven days remaining to turn themselves in in the Fulton County jail. There are six more Unindicted Coconspirators in a federal case who we expect will face charges at some point. But to the biggest remaining open question, particularly as donald trump tries to sort of delay this trial long enough to get back into power, is whether we are going to apply the most basic bedrock principle of deterrence to the most dangerous malefactor of the entire operation. Donald trump. Charles blow hes an Opinion Columnist in the New York Times. Danya perry as well as deputy chief of the Criminal Division in the Southern District of new york. Who both join me now. Danya, im curious of what you think of the dojs Sentencing Request here. And how the process goes into making these requests, generally speaking across the board . There are specific factors that the government is supposed to consider in making their Sentencing Request. And that the judge is required to consider as well in issuing a sentence. They include, as you say, deterrence, both specific to the individual defendant, and also general, to the population. As you alluded to, they need to avoid sentencing disparities. The particular characteristics of the individual. There are a number of factors that go into it. Here, of course, in their sentencing submission, the government stressed deterrence. As you just did as well. Here, they felt the need to request the most severe, some might say, draconian sentences, that they have requested to date. They are trying to distinguish the sentencing that they are requesting here from sentencings that have been handed down before. Including for the oath keepers, which was about half what they are requesting here. They are doing that mostly based on deterrence, but also by noting that this was the worst group, essentially, they were the leaders. The first ones to breach. At several points, they have the most followers. So that is their justification for these outsized Sentencing Request. Sente charles, what do you tk of the disparity as of now . We now have charges against the ex president. But up until now, this disparity between the footsoldiers and the folks calling the shots at the top. And what that means for whether we see this as abhorrent, something that never happens again, or doesnt have been for a long time, or something that becomes normalized. It is in the same way that henchmen will always be punished more than the architects of a crime. People who are engaged in political wrongdoing are going to get more lenient train meant than people who are based in Political Violence. When youre deciding whether or not youre going to follow some wink wink, not not of a politician, to go out and commit violence, understand youre going to get the hammer brought down on you much more severely than the person who is winking and nodding. That said, deterrence only work if the punishment sticks. The big danger here is that donald trump is running for reelection. He has already said that he is going to look very question closely at pardoning all of the people, or many of the people who were engaged in january 6th. Because donald trump, in order to demonstrate what he wants to demonstrate, which is that he wants to say that hes innocent. He has to also make the people who were part of his kind of grander scheme, also innocent. The deterrent wont work if the ultimate outcome is that you see that you can get away with it on the right side of the strongest man. That is exactly right. Precisely the kind of existential stakes here. Which interestingly, really run through that Sentencing Document by the Department Of Justice. Danya, theyre really quite pointed about what we are dealing with here. Basically, the question of are we going to allow Political Violence like this to become normalized . Just an interesting note on that. One of the people, christopher worrell, who is a florida proud boy convicted of seven counts, whos scheduled to be convicted today in washington is missing. We dont know where he went. Again, theres a sense here that its important that these people be taught a lesson, and everyone be taught a lesson about the strength of the law. Yeah, i dont know if it was coincidence that he appears to have fled right around the same time the government filed its brief. But certainly the specter of a decades long sentence could have motivated him to flee. But yes, the government stressed that repeatedly, that this is the worst, one of the worst acts of domestic terrorism that this country has seen. And they really strike that note over and over, as you say, its a through line throughout the hundred and 55page submission. The dispensed defense, in response said, this is really not domestic terrorism. They compared it to other conduct by Timothy Mcvay and mass shooters weve seen. They said this is not that. It is a very large sentence. And to your point, it is there is plenty of Empirical Evidence that it is certainty, and not severity of punishment that really deters. So we will see what this judge does with that dichotomy. And the certainty, of course, is if it can all be undone. Charles, you are talking about it, i hadnt even remember. That of course he started running on this pledge that hes going to pardon people. Hes running on the pledge that january 6th was good, it was a noble effort, it hill finish the job this time. In terms of that distinction between the henchmen and the planners, whats interesting is there appears to be at least one individual who falls into both categories. Remember, trump says im going to march to the capitol with you, and he doesnt. Even though it appears he wanted to storm the capitol based on some of the. It likely. One of the unindicted Co Conspirators in the federal case, and is also named as a racketeer and a conspirator and charged in georgia. He was at the capitol, on the capitol grounds. Kenneth chesebro, the lawyer associated with Donald Trumps campaign. Who thought of the legal theory behind the socalled fake electors scheme. Appears to have been on the ground of the capitol in january 6th, 2021, according to a review of public source video at his own former mentor. We have an cheeseborough, at least one example, charles, of those two categories overlapping. Yes, we should say obviously that based on evidence that he was in big aged in violence. But he was there. It was remarkable about how many people were either at the speech before the violence happened, who were prominent people. Including there was so many people who were there in the midst of this atmosphere, when they were fermenting this, and urging people to get excited. And that is what led to the wave of people marching down the street to the capitol. People marchin g down the street to th those are th, however, who are going to get the brunt of this. That is how unbalanced the criminal Justice System is. Its always going to go for the lowest criminal, give them the most punishment. White criminals will get away with less. You have to think about that. When you are volunteering your body, and your liberty, and yourself, to be someone else is muscle. Charles blow and danya perry i, thank you both very much. Coming up, trump says he might not attend the republican debate. Where i heard that before . Donald, why dont you show up and debate like a man . But first, did the ex president s Chief Of Staff wrote him out to the feds . The mystery continues. Thats next. The manager. And the snack dad. All using chase to keep up with their finances. The coach helps save goals here, because she saved for soccer camp there. Anddd check this out. The manager deposited a check. Magic. And the snack dad . Hes getting paid back. Orange slicesss. Because this team all has chase. Smart bankers. Convenient tools. One bank with the power of both. Chase. Make more of whats yours. I have moderate to severe crohns disease. Chase. Now, theres skyrizi. Things are looking up ive got Symptom Relief Control of my crohns means everything to me. Control is everything to me. 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To help relieve your occasional digestive upsets. So you can enjoy life. when you feel the signs, its time to try align. The most mysterious figure around the attempted coup remains Donald Trumps former Chief Of Staff, mark meadows. We know that hes the guy who initially cooperated with the january Six Committees investigation, jim voluntarily handing over thousands of Text Messages between him and others in trumps inner circle in the days leading up to the sixth, on the sixth, and the days after. We also know that donald trump made a very large donation of 1 million to a Concerted Foundation Headed By Meadows just weeks after the january Six Committee was formed. Then we know that meadows suddenly stopped cooperating with the committee, in fact refusing to comply with a subpoena for more documents or to appear for a deposition. The commit