caught plotting flake electors. >> we must be prepared. to lobby our republican legislatures. >> how roger stone is responding tonight. and meet the judge who helped rollback your reproductive rights. because doctors love looking at babies. when all in starts right now. >> good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes, today fulton county district attorney fani willis, who was prosecuting donald trump in 18 other criminals under racketeering charges announced her office is investigating threats against the grand jurors who indicted the ex president. nbc news reporter first reported yesterday that trump supporters leaked deported addresses of grand juries online. along with their names which did appear in the indictment. and this is just the latest example of threatening behavior by trump supporters directed at the various people working to hold them accountable for the crimes he is accused of. we also learned yesterday that a texas woman was arrested. and charged with making threats towards judge tanya chutkan. who is overseeing trump's federal january 6th trial. according to the criminal complaint, abigail joe shuai left a threatening voice mail, intended for chuck and. she refers to the judge with a racial slur. apparently saying quote, if trump does not get elected in 2024, we are coming to kill you so tread lightly before using another slur. she also targeted a texas democratic congresswoman. and local trump critics saying quote, we want to kill sheila jackson lee. now when police questioned to talk to her. she stated she had no plans to travel to washington d.c. or houston to carry out anything she stated. adding that if sheila jackson lee comes to her hometown, then we need to worry. get that? this woman, visited by the fbi, threatening congresswoman again, to them, to law enforcement. couldn't help herself. and we have learned about all that in just the past two days, two days now if we go back last, week there is of course the case of the armed utah man killed by federal agents. after he made very specific threats of violence against president biden. as well as district attorney alvin bragg, when he threatened to shoot. bag of course is the one prosecuting trump in the manhattan hush money case. i could spend the entire hour listing threats made by trump supporters against the ex presidents perceived enemies. fani willis says that she has been on the receiving end of racist threats as well. and we can all see what is happening here. threats happen in public life. they are not contained to one part of the ideological spectrum. i want to be clear about that. but what is happening here is part of a larger story. part of a long history of violence as a former political power, wielded by donald trump in the moscow right. these are not just isolated incidents. this is coming from top down. donald trump knows exactly what he is doing. when he goes on social media and shares a picture of judge chutkan with a post calling her an activist judge. accusing her running election interference. just today, the trump campaign released this video attacking special counsel jack smith for subpoenaing access to his twitter account. >> how dare a lowlife prosecutor, ranged jack smith breaking my former twitter account. without informing me, and indeed trying to completely high disinterested-y from me. >> it's obvious what don trump is doing, what he is trying to cultivate, a sense of menace. the possibility of reprisal, retribution, violence, from his die hard supporters. when he calls the prosecutors calling him deranged, accusing him of committing an atrocity. this is me bending over backwards to be charitable. let's say trump turns to be unbothered when his supporters make good on the implicit requests in his inflammatory language. i want to be clear, because i think this gets memory hold. we're not talking about hypotheticals or thought experiments were obstructions. a few months ago a qanon supporter bashed in the head of nancy pelosi's elderly husband with a hammer after breaking into her house and describing how he was there for the speaker who he wanted to torture in her own home. that man, after that break-in, was then excused and defended, outright lied about by nearly everyone on the political right. from elon musk to donald trump himself. in the run up to the 2018, another thing that has been memory hold. a guy with the trump than who mailed pipe bombs, the didn't go off, but they were real pipe bombs, two prominent trump critics in the government and media. there was also the as yet on caught pipe bonner another thing that is memory holed, in the early hours of january six who tried to, with actual bombs, blow up the dnc and the rnc the night before january 6th. of course there was january six itself, when trump supporters stormed the capitol and attempted to over turn the government. some insurrectionist constructed a gallows, chanting they wanted to hang mike pence. apparently top trump thought that would not be such a bad idea. this is who donald trump has always been. his personal cowardice aside. a guy who thinks political violence is acceptable, unacceptable means to an end. a desirable one in some cases. don't forget, he spent his first presidential campaign encouraging attendees to assault protesters. >> i've got a notice in case you see. we have wonderful security guys who said mr. trump, there maybe somebody with tomatoes in the audience. [laughter] so if you see somebody get ready to throw a tomato, not the crap out of, them when you? seriously. [applause] i promise you, i will pay for the legal fees, i promise. >> so when trump posts to social media the picture of judge chutkan, let's call it what it is. he is obviously fomenting violence against judges and prosecutors. if something terrible happens, what are we going to conclude? every warning sign is blinking bright red. and of course, yes, most trump supporters, the vast majority are not violent. they will do something violent. even among those making threats, this shry woman, for example, most probably are not serious. again, the vast majority. but this is kind of a numbers game here. it's a big country. so small percentage of them are. we know that to be true. again, this is not an abstraction. no longer trump keeps exciting x inciting an agitating, it's a roll of the days each time. the greater the odds are that that small group of people who could do something will do something. it only has to be a few. don't trump's utilizing that reality to increase the cost of prosecuting him, to increase the cost of crossing him in the same way that a mafia boss would. he has been explicit. he posted himself, quote, if you go after me, i'm coming after you! i am not a lawyer. i do not claim to know what council is actionable illegal sense. furthermore the first amendment is broad for a reason. as a journalist, i like that way. put that aside. morally the, morally, we all know what is happening. we all know who is culpable for what has already happened and what may be to come. mark my words. george clooney is a conservative attorney and former republican. and -- is a white-collar criminal defense attorney. both join me now. george, i'm trying not to be histrionic here and ring the alarm bell too much, but it does seem to me like just in terms of what we have seen in the past few days, that there is, i've got a real worry here about the combination of the presidents words and rhetoric, the targeting of specific individuals, it's not an abstraction, here's the judge, here is the prosecutor, here are the jurors, and what that means for the orderly administration of justice. what do you think? >> you're not being histrionic and you're absolutely right. there is no doubt about it, this is what donald trump does. he wants to foment violence. he engages in what is called parallax this sometimes where he says one thing it would be terrible people would be so upset and this might happen and he's pretending not to be endorsing it but he is endorsing it. he does want it. the danger between what you are right to say that political violence can happen on both sides, any side, but the difference is, we have a political leader who was once president united states, who got 70 million votes or so in the last election, and he is fomenting the violence. he's doing it quite purposely. he is a narcissistic sociopath. the shrinks aren't allowed to say that, but you and i are, and we could look it up, and he is a man devoid of any social conscience whatsoever. remember when he went to visit the synagogue in pittsburgh but was tragically attacked, he came back and all he would talk about, he tweeted, the first thing he tweeted, what a great reception he got. the lives don't mean anything to him. all it means, the only thing that means anything to him is his own well-being. he is now more desperate than ever, which is why he is doing all these things. >> there's also a testing that is happening here, scott, in terms of, first of all, someone who was practicing in court, i just can't a mansion any other defendant out on bail doing this kind of thing and not being remanded. am i crazy? obviously it's hard to compare apples to apples because the guys a past president and he has a platform. but what anyone else get away with? this >> of course not. no one would get away with it. i know that judges, the two federal judges into state judges are trying to balance the fact that he's running for office, and whether this is political speech or not this isn't political speech or taits beach. it's's political violence speech. and you simply can't have it because don't front is gonna learn one thing sooner than later, and his lawyers are. to the criminal justice system and a federal judge a running his life right now, whether he believes it or not. he's going to find out that is sitting federal judge has a lot more power than he has despite him having 30 or 40% of maggots borders. here's what should happen. in order to violate a court order, the judges have to draft that order and tell him the political speech is one thing, but the administration of justice, attacking witnesses, influence injuries, is a whole another. you should not attack the state prosecutors or the state prosecutor. you may not do x, y, nze, because none of that has to do with running for office or defending yourself. i'm going to put it in writing. if you do a, b, and see again, this is what's going to happen. now try me. i have a lifetime appointment as a federal judge, and i'm more prepared to put you under house arrest, fine you civilly, or criminally lock you up until you get the message. these are the realities of the criminal justice system. i think trump is ignoring it, or his lawyers can't control him, but this is his future. while he's out on bail, he's free, but in the criminal justice system he's not likely to remain free. >> the other thing is, he's a criminal defendants. as judge chutkan said, mr. trump, like every american, has the first amendment right to free speech, but that right is not absolute. he's a criminal defendant. he's going to have restrictions like every single other defendant. >> exactly. >> you don't, go to rikers, there's lots of people not out on bail who engaged in petty larceny. they're not out. they don't get to rail against the prosecutor. you've got a lot of privilege to begin with. and george, to scott's point, what we are seeing is this testing. i'm going to keep doing it, and i'm good to use the paralympic this, i'm going to use i didn't say it, i read tweeted, until you do something. what are you going to do? i'm donald trump. >> that's right. that's what his lawyers will do, they'll push back on him but he won't listen. he doesn't believe that he will, that this will happen to him, and if it happens to him he thinks that his supporters will come to his rescue through their violence and intimidation. in fact, the point you should make us any other defendant would have been remanded already. a perfect example, the federal conditions of release issued by the magistrate judge in d. c. say one of the conditions of release is that you not val violate any law, federal or state, and what did he do? just the other day he went out there and said, he basically told a grand jury witness that grand jury witness, former lieutenant governor duncan in georgia, that witness should not appear before the grand jury. that's interfering. that's absolutely interfering with the grand jury investigation and obstructing, trying to intimidate a witness. that's against the law. it's >> chris, what's really dame about this, i don't think donald trump is smart at all. what's dom about this is, he keeps attacking judges in the prosecutors and the witnesses, but the judges and the prosecutors, when he gets convicted, and he would have to run the table to not be convicted on 91 counts, these are the same individuals that are going to recommend to a judge how much time he should get, whether he's president or not. i don't think he's going to be president. more importantly, he's attacking a judge that can lock him up. those are the people are the last people he should be attacking. that may work for him to raise money, but legally, and right now the criminal justice system is running his life. those are the last two people you want to be attacking if you get convicted, because those state and federal judges, after going to trial or not pleading out, they're going to lock you up. they have no compunction to sentence you. >> scott, i've never had the pleasure of being your client, but that's sowed legal advice, i think. if you ever find yourself in any of the situations, george conway and a. scott bolden, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> coming up, don trump's lawyer says the public has a need, sorry, i couldn't even get through it, has a need for problems when it comes to his d. c. trial. you will not believe when they think that trial should actually happen. but first, he has been a key part of every trump scheme for the last eight years. roger stone is now on tape plotting trump's attempted coup. we will show that to you as well, next. xt >> tonight we have new footage, courtesy of our colleagues at the beat with ari melber. showing one of donald trump's oldest advisers dictating a plan to steal the election. before the presidential race had a been called. we're going to play that for you in a bit. but first it is worth remembering exactly who that advisor is and what role he played in the attempted coup. i'll tell you about longtime republican operative roger stone, self-described dirty trickster, a man with nixon tattooed on his back. stone's name has not come up much recently. surprisingly he does not appear in either of the election related indictments of the ex president. he has been a key figure in donald trump's biggest plots. ahead of the 2016 election roger stone was a go between for trump world and those seek to disseminate the illegally stolen emails. stone admitted he had direct contract with contact with julian assange and wikileaks, which published the lakes he had hacked from democrats. >> i have communicated with assange. i believe the next tranche of documents pertain to the clinton foundation. but there is no telling what the actual october surprise might be. >> stone then lied to investigators, obstructed justice, it emitted witnesses in an attempt to keep the truth from coming out. robert mueller brought criminal charges against stone in january, 2019, as part of his investigation of russian interference in the 2016 election. stone was convicted of seven felonies by a jury of his peers and sentenced to over three years in prison. but likely, stone had a good buddy in the white house. donald trump commuted his sentence just days before he was set to report to a federal prison. it was a massive controversy in july of 2020. we covered it here less than four months before the election. it might seem like an unforced political error, pardoning your former political body in the middle of your election campaign, but roberts roger stone had another job to do, when he couldn't do from behind bars. he became a linchpin in the effort to steal the 2020 election. in new footage we see stone had the playbook for the attempted coup as early as november 5th, 48 hours election a into days before joe biden was declared the winner. listen to stone in this video, shut shot by a danish documentarian, an encrypted group chat to create false slates of electors. >> although state officials in all 50 states must ultimately certify the results of the voting in their state, the final decision as to who the state legislatures authorize be sent to the electoral college is a decision made solely by the legislature. any legislative body may decide, on the basis of overwhelming evidence of fraud, to send electors to the electoral college who accurately reflect the presidents legitimate victory in their state was, which wise illegally denied him through fraud. we must be prepared to lobby our republican legislatures, by personal contact and by demonstrating the overwhelming will of the people in their state, in each state that this may need to happen. >> not exactly the gettysburg address, but that is exactly what happened. republicans in seven states follow that plan, creating bogus slates of pro trump electors. they swore on an affidavit that was the real one, except for two states that hedged. this was key to the plan for january 6th. allies pressured trumps to recognize those fake electors during the certification of the vote. as january 6th approached, roger stone remained enmeshed in the preparations. he participated in planning meetings with other trump allies including the infamous one at the willard hotel, on the night of january 50 round up the crowd, gathering the capital. >> this is nothing less than an epic struggle for the future of this country between dark and light. [applause] between the godly and a godless. between good and evil. and we will win this fight, or america will step off into 1000 years of darkness. we dare not fail. i will be with you tomorrow, shoulder to shoulder. one >> see what you will about the guy, but at least he doesn't have the absolute creepiest affect you have ever encountered in any human alive. stone also mused about violence and associated with members of the proud boys and oath keepers, four of whom escorted him back to the willard hotel that night. two of those men, along with several members of both organizations, absence been found guilty by a jury of their peers, of the very serious crime of seditious conspiracy. so, when you take a step back, you look at the fact. it certainly looks like donald trump sprung roger stone from prison so that he could plot a violent coup on trump's behalf. stone has yet to face legal accountability for his actions. but you have to wonder how long that will remain the case. am i? ya! save 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus, free home delivery when you add a base. shop now only at sleep number. ♪ i have type 2 diabetes, but i manage it well. ♪ ♪ jardiance ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance, ♪ ♪ at each day's staaart. ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to seee. ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c. ♪ jardiance works 24/7 in your body to flush out some sugar! and for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. jardiance may cause serious side effects including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, that can lead to sudden worsening of kidney function, and genital yeast or urinary tract infections. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, ketoacidosis, or an allergic reaction, and don't take it if you're on dialysis. taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. ♪ jardiance is really swell, ♪ ♪ the little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ >> should they be weighing the timing of super tuesday in the case of the georgia one, or the iowa caucus in the case of jack smith? >> to some degree, they might accommodate a few days here in their. but i do not think that should govern the schedule for pursuing these cases. you know you don't get immunity for two years in a run up to an election just by saying, hey i am a candidate, you can't drive me. these investigations have been going on for a while. everybody knew about them. even before he announced his candidacy. so if there is a chance to get a result before the election, it should be because the american people should know. these are crimes that involve, or potential crimes involve moral turpitude. >> former trump attorney bill barr to the growing list of people calling for the speedy trial of his old boss. right, now waiting for trump's legal team to respond to fulton county georgia district attorney fani willis's proposed trial date of march 4th 2024 for that case. tonight, trump announced he is canceling his much anticipated big get out of jail free rebuttal to the fulton county charges. saying his lawyers would rather he put in a legal filing. stay tuned for that. also, just a short time ago we got trump's team's response to special counsel jack smith's proposed january 2nd 2024 trial date. for the ex presidents jamie sixth case. trump is asking for just a bit more time quote, donald j trump through council respectfully request the court placed this case on the april 20 26th trial calendar. amy lee copeland is a criminal defense and appellate attorney based in savannah georgia, also served as appellate she's for the u.s. attorney's office in the southern district of georgia. andrew weissmann served as lead prosecutor for special counsel mueller's office. coasting the prosecuting donald trump podcast. both join me now. all right, let's first your reaction to the april 2026. that seems good, seems fair reasonable. look obviously that is absurd. but you would expect the defense usually does not want to have a fast show. so it's really not to be folded. i do want to caution people that it is important to remember that as much as people want to see people held to account and have a trial. part of the rule of law mean says defense is entitled to prepare. and so i think really the issue for judge check-in. it will also be the issue in georgia. is essentially how much time do they need. in d.c., what is the delta of what they already had because of january 6th committee data dump. they had lots and lots of information. so donald trump's team is not starting. what is the uncommon, how much time do they really need? i think the government is probably being unrealistic and asking for their date. clearly the defenses asking for far too much time. but remember, donald trump has handed judge chutkan something she can wield. which is that she said i will pick a faster date if i see that you are obstructing the integrity of the process. and he sure has been. so that is something that really i think is going to play on her mind. putting this off too far because of what he is going to do with the two witnesses and essentially tampering with the jury pool. when he should not be doing that. >> what do you think, what is your response? >> you couldn't, tammy but when you said it january 2026, i said that seems like a pretty sporty request. there is a saying pence get fed, hawks get slaughtered and that does not sound like a reasonable request to me. >> to andrew's point, i do not want to two months of the details here. but i think it is mike matt again who is a longtime democratic state sort of political leader in the majority of the state house of illinois. who has been indicted. i think this trial is like three years between the indictment in the trial? so public option trials, these cases can really take a long time. i would say if the public interest here were not so urgent, if it was independent of that, what do you think amy lee? somebody who's practiced as the defense attorney would be a fair amount of time for a trial like this? >> well certainly not 2026. i think within a year of indictment would be a fair amount of time depending on the number of documents. the real problem i think the trial in this case is going to be jury selection. those cases but that's probably another show. >> since you said it, of follow-up why. >> well, you don't have to have jurors that know nothing about the case or never heard about it or never heard the name donald trump. >> who's donald trump? >> but you do need an impartial juror. >> right, who is he? never heard of him. but you have to have a jury pool that has fair and impartial jurors on it. he's-y very polarizing figure and my concern would be just the ability of a court to sit through and find enough jurors that say they can be fair and impartial. >> and you, in terms of the next steps here, i mean obviously there is a classic negotiation here. prices like they say january 2nd, we see april 2026. both sides are trying to anchor the negotiations as far away as possible. there is this august 28th hearing were chutkan says she is going to pick a date. do we think, i guess what happens next? does she just look at both these and say, here's a day. >> it's judge dearie once said, of the special master frame, he once said when the party is kept arguing i don't think you understands this isn't a discussion. judge chutkan is going to pick a date. that will be the dates. she is a no nonsense judge, and, to emily's point, i do think a year is reasonable. one data point for everyone is the man of her case which also involved reams of paper where paul didn't have this kind of heads up in terms of preparing and it involved lots of overseas evidence. that went to trial within 11 months in the d. c. courthouse. so, i think that judge chutkan obviously is going to be talking to and is going to know with other judges have done in cases where their high profile and what is sort of a reasonable date. so, i think that's something that is a pretty good rule of thumb. >> that's a pretty good touch, john. amy lee, the defendant, one of the defendants in the case in georgia donald trump had promised a rock solid reputations of the -- and the fact that joe biden won the 2020 election he's going to protect that to great fanfare for monday. -- do advice from his lawyers, do you think he got good counsel from his lawyers? >> i think he got great counsel. everyone has the right to remain silent, but not everyone can remain silent, and that was good advice from his lawyers. >> probably best to just put that legal filing. although, be careful what you put in a legal filing as all of his lawyers are learning as they are facing multiple penalties and disbarment hearings across the land. amy lee copeland and andrew -- thank you very much. >> you're welcome. >> thank, you chris. >> still to come,'s one of these men has overseen a soft economic landing after one of the greatest disruptions in the country's history. the other faces nearly 100 felony counts in cities found in the eastern seabirds. so, there are tied in the latest presidential poll, and come again. that's ahead. how can you sleep on such a firm setting? gab, mine is almost the same as yours. almost is just another word for not as good as mine. save 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus, free home delivery when you add a base. >> i'm going to show you a shop now only at sleep number. picture and some of the people in and you will recognize, semi will not. right there in the center of this picture. that is supreme court justice clarence thomas. probably recognize him. over there on the left is podcaster and republican senator tim cruz of texas. you probably recognize him. if you are thinking that looks like a really nice room, you are right. that is the library that belongs to billionaire harlan crow. crow of course is the guy who paid a private boarding school tuition for clarence thomas's grand nephew. also the guy who bought the house where thomas's mother lives rent free. he is a guy that has taken thomas on all sorts of incredibly luxurious trips. and his library was used for the occasion to swear in this guy, somebody might not know. his name is james ho. and he is being sworn into the federal judiciary. by justice clarence thomas in 2018. after being nominated by donald trump. whoa is a right-wing lawyer, of the federal society, i made man if you will. we got a lifetime judicial appointment to the court of appeals of the fifth circuit. he is in the news now, because of we'll just ask skripal opinion hero about the abortion pill method person. it started yesterday. that is when that fifth circuit court of appeals, which is probably the most right wing appellate court in the country, upheld parts of an opinion by another right-wing judge in texas. remember the guy in amarillo who tried to single-handedly take the abortion pill off the shelves nationwide everywhere. through judicial feel how this case has been working its way through the federal judiciary one of the challenges for this lawsuit is that the plaintiffs whom are suing to get the drug taken off of the shelves are a bunch of antiabortion doctors basically. and for them to have standing in federal court, to even get to an analysis that merits the case, they have to show they have an injury. like what is the injury? what injury does a doctor have if a patient somewhere takes this abortion pill or if the abortion pill is accessible broadly. it's a good question well in an opinion written by judge james ho, that guy who is in the harlan crow library with clarence thomas and ted cruz took a really bonkers position. writing in his opinion that the plaintiffs, these are the antiabortion doctors. experienced static injury. the grounds withstanding. not waking us up. didn't pull this out. i'm going to quit. unborn babies, you notice politics are from. that unborn baby's, what we call fetuses, are a source of profound joy for those who view them. expectant parents eagerly share ultrasound photos with loved ones. doctors delight and working with the unborn patients. and experience in a static injury when they are aborted. again, i did not make this. up this is an actual judicial opinion. published. he wrote that down. put it out in the world. as a legal matter, according to this judge james ho. every doctor has a legally cognizable interest in people making babies for them to look at as a matter of law. they suffer illegally actionable injuries if you do not give them that. your room is there to make a baby pictures and babies and fetuses for them! pretty deranged. now, ultimately, the other two hard right judges on that free judge panel did not agree with thoughts parts of james ho decision, the most underage's contention, he is writing part concurrence. the three judge panels, these three judge just, they did by a huge part of this anti abortion lawsuit, this pasha's lawsuit. they issued an opinion to massively rollback access to mifepristone back to the way it was in 2016 seven years ago before the fda, that's the agency that actually makes a decision about this stuff and has some expertise on it, made the abortion pill easier to obtain. nothing changes for now. the affects our state because it can go up to the supreme court. but again, what do you think the 63 trump is going to do with mifepristone? what do you think they're going to say? do you think they're gonna kick it on standing grounds or find standing for these antiabortion doctors who incorporate after -- and followed this -- right-wing judge and got kicked up full of other right-wing judges who think that there isn't a static injury if you use mifepristone because you're robbing ob/gyn of the joy of looking at your fetus. the thing to recognize, is that none of these people or the circles of power there meshed in, james ho clarence thomas, harlan crow what ted cruz, donald trump, the republican party, none of them will stop until every abortion is banned everywhere in this country in every form, surgical, or medical. they are not going to stop unless they are completely and totally politically defeated, not once, not twice, but over and over again. that is the only way to stop them. we're going to talk about that, next. ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ >> just this week alone we have two polls that have president joe biden and donald trump neck and neck in a hypothetical matchup. yesterday -- university released this poll showing the to nearly tied 47 to 46. today we have another poll from -- showing close numbers, 43 for biden, 42 for trump. times had a similar thing last week. on one level, i do not think we should overthink things. as i said yesterday, it's still very early, trump is popular he's facing multiple political trials. the other side of my brain can't meltdown because apparently donald trump is a coin flip from being back in the oval office. -- who worked on numerous presidential campaigns including barack obama's 2008 and 2012 campaigns and he joins me now. is that how you feel, joe, what's your take away here? >> i think it looks pretty joe biden, that includes 40% of republicans who say that. i think those numbers are problematic with trump going forward. i think if there is an alternative, and i suspect one will emerge, republicans will be looking for an alternative. that is even apart from all the other issues that are going on with donald trump right now. these are likely to weigh on a big chunk of the republican base. >> part of this, i, think is that there's a time like a little bit that i'm sort of telling myself. so, you are finding that 24% of republican voters says the georgia indictment makes them less likely to vote for trump. we saw some new state polling today in new hampshire that dropping ten points from the number he'd gotten pre these latest rounds -- so there's some erosion happening there. i guess the theory is that people are not paying that much attention and this will take a while to work through the system, but a trial and conviction should have a really significant effect. >> i think you're right, they're not paying that much attention right now but even the fact of the numbers you cited and i sided show if they are paying more attention than they normally would this far out from an election. we have grown into a time when the primary season's got an elongated and on both parties, and people are going to be campaigning earlier. i think you are going to have people on the republican side very aggressive about making the case against donald trump. i think they have to. you know, i did a lot of work in new jersey and i saw chris christie up close for many years working against him and in some of the races. he's a formal prosecutor, i think he's the guy to watch going forward on the republican side. i'm not saying to win, but to really press a case against donald trump. i think if christie does it, others will likely jump on the bandwagon. >> so, what you are saying is sort of two things to think about. what would be the effect of trials or convictions in those hypothetical head to head matchups? but, what we're saying is, and i think to sort of conventionalism is that there is nothing that could happen to shake him and the republican primary. in fact, may be indictments and prosecutions helped him in some perverse way. you're saying that's not true, you said there's some signs in the data that these things do matter, that they are going to affect the calculation of primary voters and that they could open the field a bit. >> yeah, i think it could. for example, one question we are asked and we got 63% of all voters agreed that trump tried to overturn free and fair elections. but, that number is very high. 64% among independents, and 37% report amongst republicans. so, he has given people an opportunity to make a case against him with his own actions in the past and i think some of those folks are going to be very aggressive in pressing that case, and why it should be disqualifying for him to be republican nominee. >> it also seems to be no one can predict the future obviously, but the macroeconomic picture is gotten better particularly in the past few months we've seen real wages going back and household disposable income. that, on the other side of those heads to heads can matter a lot for what joe biden's numbers are looking like, and that also might be something which is a lag showing up in the polling and data. >> i think it'll take time for those numbers, i think they're going to have to be sustained over a long period of time going forward. here, we're pretty distant distance away from primaries and obviously come to the challenge. but, even from the election. so, i think it is something to watch, but i think you're right that there's some trends there that will probably give them some comfort at this moment. >> all right, joe benson, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> thank you for having me, chris. >> that's all in this thursday night, alex wagner tonight starts right now, good evening alex. arts right now, good evening alex >> chris, in this bonkers filing for us all to digest they point out we're entering terror incognito with all of this. there is speculation about how all these indictments are going to affect him as a political candidate, but nobody -- really nobody knows, and kudos to you for hammering that home repeatedly. >> yes, it's one of my favorite things to say. there's an

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