imagine how terrifying donald trump, how terrified he has to be for him to follow the advice of his lawyers. that's how terrified donald trump is tonight. for the first time. the breaking not surprising news of the night is that donald trump was forced to announce that he will not be having a special press event on monday to, as he put it, refute the 13 criminal charges against him delivered by a georgia grand jury on monday. in a written statement tonight, donald trump said rather than releasing the report on the rigged and stolen georgia 2020 presidential election on monday my lawyers would prefer putting this, i believe, irrefutable and overwhelming evidence of election fraud and irregularities informal legal filings as we fight to dismiss this disgraceful indictment, therefore, the news conference is no longer necessary, exclamation point. that statement is, of course a lie. there is no report. donald trump has no. report on trump's lawyers will not be putting irrefutable and overwhelming evidence of election fraud and irregularities in formal legal filings. they will not do that. donald trump is charged in florida with churning lies about election fraud there into a criminal enterprise. donald trump's criminal defense lawyers are not going to mount a defense that says donald trump's lies were true. donald trump has been terrified into silence by fulton county district attorney fani willis. another sign of how terrified he is of fani willis is what he said about her in that written statement tonight. he called her a publicity and campaign finance seeking da. never mind that no one in human history has ever sought publicity more hungrily than donald trump, and no one in human history has more voraciously pulled so-called campaign contributions that of people's pockets to finance his campaigns, his lifestyle, and now his criminal defense. but for donald trump to call someone publicity and campaign finance seeking as an insult is as mild an insult as donald trump has ever delivered publicly to anyone. this might mean donald trump is more in the control of his lawyers tonight. it might mean that donald trump has turned a corner rhetorically affair as a criminal defendant and that he will stop launching vicious, false, racist attacks on fani willis and on a federal judge in washington who is presiding over special prosecutor jack smith's prosecution of donald trump for some of the same conduct alleged by the georgia indictment. you could see today, when donald trump taped an interview for the ultra low rated fox business channel, that he is, in trumpian terms, a defeated man. when a fawning host, who commands a regular tv audience, about one tenth the size of the audience watching this program right now, brought out up donald trump's newest indictment in georgia, it was as much of a softball incident item and question could be, and donald trump's response was what donald trump would call low energy. >> i thought we would just see what you had to say about that. >> sure. it's a witch hunt. it's a continuation of a witch hunt. they want to silence you. they mean silence. i think they are sick people. i think they are people that have no idea how the world works. >> donald trump rambled on. he never mentioned those sick people again. he never said a negative word, or another negative word, about any of the prosecutors in the four criminal cases against him, or anything about the judges in two of those cases whom he has attacked viciously in the past. it was just a very weary version of his witch hunt bit. donald trump has not spoken one word of defense in the case that district attorney willis is now prosecuting. now we know that he will not speak one word of defense on monday or possibly any other day. donald trump's criminal defense lawyers were all far too weak and unprofessional to get him to stop saying poisonous, racist things about fani willis until she indicted him. and now we see fani willis's indictment has landed on donald trump more heavily than any other indictment of donald trump. fani willis's indictment is the indictment that made donald trump shut up. and so on monday we will not be hearing donald trump's defense to the rico charge he is facing in georgia. we will not hear donald trump's defense to his famous phone call on january 2nd of 2021 to georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger. >> all i want to do is this. i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. >> that phone call got donald trump indicted for solicitation of violation of oath by a public officer. if it sounded criminal to you the first time you heard donald trump asking for those 11,000 votes, it sounded criminal to district attorney willis, as well. now donald trump is indicted for that request that the secretary of state violate his oath and commit a crime for donald trump. but donald trump is also indicted on another count for that same phone call. that is the crime of making false statements to government officials in georgia, which the indictment says was, quote, an act of racketeering activity. the sentence, this was an act of racketeering it to activity, appears 34 times in the indictment. the indictment lists 13 important lies that donald trump told in that same phone call to secretary of state raffensperger in furtherance of the conspiracy. on monday we will not hear donald trump's defense of any one of those lies. and donald trump's criminal defense lawyers will never be able to defend those 13 lies. donald trump's criminal defense lawyers will not dare to suggest that any one of these 13 lies is true. donald trump has been indicted on multiple counts of making false statements to georgia officials. the following 13 lies listed in the indictment amount to only one of those counts of making false statements to government officials. here are those 13 lies. anywhere from 200 and 50,000 to 300,000 ballots were dropped mysteriously into the rolls in the presidential election in georgia. that thousands of people attempted to vote in the presidential election in georgia and were told they could not because a ballot had already been cast in their name. that 4502 people voted in the presidential election in georgia who were not on the voter registration list. that 904 people voted in the presidential election in georgia who were registered at an address that was a post office box, that ruby freeman was a professional vote scammer and known political operative. that ruby freeman fraudulently awarding false ballots in state farm arena. close to 5000 dead people voted in the presidential election in georgia. that 100 and 39% of people voted in the presidential election in detroit. that 200,000 more votes were recorded than the number of people who voted in the presidential election in pennsylvania. that thousands of dead people voted in the presidential election in michigan. that ruby freeman stuffed the ballot boxes. that hundreds of thousands of ballots had been dumped into fulton county and another county adjacent to fulton county in the presidential election in georgia. that he won the november 3rd 2020 presidential election in georgia by 400,000 votes. the indictment says, this was an act of racketeering activity and an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy. we have much defendant trump news to consider in this hour, including his lawyers asking for a three-year delay in the washington d. c. trial of jack smith's indictment of donald trump for his activities leading up to and on january six, trying to over throw the presidential election, and although donald trump is not offering one word of defense in any of the criminal cases against him now, rudolph giuliani is trying to defend himself with pride public comments on his radio show in which he repeatedly refers to georgia's secretary of state, brad raffensperger as georgia's attorney general, for whom rudy giuliani expresses his unbridled hatred. here is a small sample of rudy giuliani's defense. >> she's taking first amendment statements and advocacy by lawyers are turning it into a racketeering case. i know rico. rico is a friend of mine. i come from brooklyn. you know? i come from a place that's realistic. and knows how to ferret outliers. >> we will hear more of the giuliani defense later in the hour, but we begin our discussion with the consideration of why the trump defense in the georgia case has gone completely silent. leading off our discussion is andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel and former chief of the criminal division in the eastern district of new york. he's a professor at nyu law school and co-host of the prosecuting donald trump podcast and an msnbc legal analyst. gwen keyes fleming is also with us, a former district attorney in dekalb county. and -- former prosecutor in georgia is joining us again tonight. andrew, let's begin with you, since you have been helping us cover all of these prosecutions of donald trump. it is so uncharacteristic of him to get hit with this indictment own stock all of the previous reactions that he has had to all of the previous indictments and that he just randomly has. now we see the lawyers convincing him or him claiming the lawyers have convinced him to shut up about it on monday. who knows how that really happened. he had nothing to say on monday anyway. this may be temporary. it may all explode tomorrow. but today is a different day for donald trump. >> i had the exact same reaction. it is the fact that he has four criminal cases that cannot be easy. that has to weigh on you. i think it's something more. of course he wants to try his case in a place where, in the court of public opinion and not in the court of law, where facts and law matter. but there are two big things that are coming up. in the georgia case and in the d. c. case the judge is going to be deciding when is there a trial date. in d. c. in particular, that's going to happen on august 28th. and the judge said essentially, you keep doing this it's going to be a factor in why it's going to be sooner. so that's one reason that he may be putting a muzzle, it least temporarily, and the other is, and this is where we have experts on the show better than i, if he's out on bail, three cases soon to be four cases, in georgia in the statute requires that a judge find that he is not a risk of flight, not in the danger to the community, and does not pose a risk to obstructing justice or interfering with witnesses. i know in d. c. judge chutkan is going to be focused on that like a laser. no prosecutor, no judge wants to see a defendant inciting violence and trump has a long history. those i think are the constellation of reasons why we may see, for at least a short time, a more muted donald trump. >> gwen keyes fleming, andrew teased this up for some georgia expertise. that georgia mandate on judges, on leaving people out on bail, to have the guarantee that they won't in any way interfere with witnesses. that's a serious problem for donald trump in georgia already. just this week, when the former lieutenant governor in georgia was publicly known to be on his way to testify to the grand jury, donald trump publicly said he shouldn't do it. he publicly said, in writing, that a witness subpoenaed by fani willis should not show up and should not testify to the grand jury. it is so rare for a judge to have that information. there is the way he said it. he said jeff duncan will be testifying before the fulton county grand jury. he shouldn't. gwen, this is the kind of thing that a judge would have to take very seriously in georgia, on the issue of donald trump's continued freedom in this case. but do you think that specific georgia law is part of what might be controlling donald trump's behavior for, who knows, at least 24 hours? >> i think the only person that can really answer that is the former president and his lawyers. again, when we get to the issue of bond, not only is the da going to be able to put forth an argument as to whether she thinks any of the defendants should be held pending trial. but obviously their defense counsel is going to present the alternative view. i think this is going to be something that's going to be up to judge mcafee. i'm sure he and his clerks and team are watching and seeing much of this documented evidence. but those decisions are going to rest on his shoulders. we will need to see how he evaluates them. >> amy lee copeland, one struggles to imagine what any, anyone could seriously say in donald trump's defense at a monday event, which is why i read just that one page of the indictment, which contains 13 lies told in the famous phone call to brad raffensperger, lies that usually get ignored by us in our coverage of the phone call because we're just stuck on the solicitation part of it, which is the get the 11 thousand votes. but if you are defending donald trump against this accusation of this being a criminal enterprise, you have to take on each one of those grotesque lies in those 13 lies in that phone call. i just don't see where the trump defense begins on material like that. >> well, it wasn't it wasn't absolutely perfect phone call, let's begin with that principle. beyond that -- sorry! >> you make a point, right, because that's what trump has said about it. just one adjective. perfect. okay, that's fine for his rally audience. but to take it on as a matter of evidence with those 13 lies that is in the indictment, how do you do that? how does a defense lawyer look at the 13 lies in the indictment in that charge and come up with a response to it? >> it is going to be a very difficult uphill battle for this defense team. they're off to a good start if they can get their client to stop talking and making things worse for himself. they have got to play the hand they have been dealt. they cannot change the facts, they can't change with their client said. they might be showing or trying to show that it doesn't matter. but they're pretty bad when you read them all in succession. it's quite a conglomeration of things that mr. trump said to the secretary of state. >> and andrew, he's using those 13 lies to support the criminal solicitation of give me 11,000 votes because of all of these lies i'm telling you about other votes and about ruby freeman and all of that. >> i think if they didn't have this problem of his continuing to talk as amy talks about, what you would say here if you are a defense counsel is i had lawyers telling me this is what happened. i had people doing this data collection. i was relying on things. so even though i may have been wrong, i wasn't knowingly lying. remember, it's not enough that he was just saying it and he was wrong. it has to be with knowledge, intentionally, at the time. the problem is, one, if you've got all of these things, two, you have no underlying facts to support it. that's why we're not going to actually see this press conference on monday. and then, if it was really true, why is he threatening brad raffensperger with criminal prosecution? i mean, that, to me, is the best part of this. it's like the combination of saying i need you to find just the number that will let me win, and if you don't do it you understand i am the president of united states and you are playing with fire. i just think that constellation is going to make it really hard for a defense lawyer to mount a defense. >> we're gonna have to squeeze in a commercial break right here, and what i want to come back to when we come back is the conflict on this very point, that donald trump now has with mark meadows. mark meadows's lawyer in his first filing in this case to try to remove it to federal court, has said something that was also revealed in jack smith 's indictment, that mark meadows testimony is going to be, i went down to georgia, i was not allowed to illegally enter the room during the audit, which i tried to do. they kept me out. but i went back to the white house and i told donald trump the audit is operating flawlessly. they are counting every vote flawlessly in the audit. that's what mark meadows is going to say in this case. and it's weeks after that the donald trump is telling all of these 13 lies about georgia trying to solicit that change of the vote count there. that's what we're going to come back to, is the mark meadows conflict with donald trump over this evidentiary point. we are squeezing in a break here. we'll be back soon with all our guests. safelite came right to us, and we could see exactly when they'd arrive with a replacement we could trust. that's service the way we want it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ my active psoriatic arthritis can make me feel like i'm losing my rhythm. with skyrizi to treat my skin and joints, i'm getting into my groove. ♪(uplifting music)♪ along with significantly clearer skin... skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and 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your into when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. >> we have a new teasing statement by donald trump about next week's republican presidential debate, where he isn't saying he will, he isn't saying he won't, he just ends the little message about it and how great his campaign is going with the trumpian question of, so why would i debate? which may be the warmup to him announcing that he is not going to debate. we're back with andrew weissmann, amy lee copeland, gwen keyes fleming, all former prosecutors. i just want to go andrew to the point where i left off, the apparent conflict in what appears to be mark meadows's testimony, saying he returned from georgia having tried to get into the room with the audit which he wasn't allowed to do, because it was illegal, but he did report to donald trump that the audit was going flawlessly. it is after that that donald trump calls the secretary of state, tells the 13 lies that appear in the indictment about the vote in georgia. so this is mark meadows testimony versus donald trump. >> absolutely. the reason i think it is interesting is one terrible fact for mark meadows, because he is then on the call, encouraging, he is the person who previously -- he could have said on the call the audit when flawlessly. >> he didn't. he's being a toady on the call. the fact that he had said that is really bad for him. it's a direct admission. remember, for donald trump, the evidence would be mark meadows, chris crabs, all of doj telling him other than jeff clark who wants to lie for him, saying we checked this all out and it's not there. doj says we are not sending a letter to georgia saying it is fraud. so that is totally consistent with the mark meadows statement, with chris krebs statement, and all of that was really strong. it is also interesting that that statement from mark meadows, if he's not cooperating, and i would suggest he probably isn't, given what happened in georgia, means that the feds have that statement from someone else, meaning that they had a witness who says i was there and heard mark meadows say that. >> and, amy i can imagine the trump defense counsel of mark meadows takes the stand in his own defense, vigorously cross examining him about whether he actually said that. the trump defense lawyers would want to say mark meadows is lying when he says donald trump that the audit went perfectly. >> that's exactly what they would want to say, lawrence, but i think all of the other things that andrew mentioned are in play as well. in addition to the fact that by that time i think georgia and three recounts, including one hand recount. they can try to discount mark meadows's credibility, and they may be able to. but there is just so much evidence that makes me feel like i'm not smart enough defense attorney to figure this all-out. >> listen, we have spent, on this case and others, hours on this program trying to come up with the defense for donald trump and the other cases. we have not done that. we have not found any legal defense advanced by donald trump's lawyers in any of the cases yet. i want to go to something that former trump attorney general william barr said today. and this goes to that question of what was donald trump being told in the white house by his own staff about these lies that he was telling, and this is barr talking about the federal case brought by jack smith, which is a mirror in most ways of the georgia case. let's listen to this. >> i think the federal case is good, i mean it is responsible because it focuses on the hub of the issue, which is not just the lies and knowing they were laws realize, and that's what they allege, but the fact that he used this device of him enpaneling impostor electors, swearing that they were the electors, but the key point there was they were in tandem with a pan whereby the vice president would use that is a pretext for nullifying the legal and certified votes. and during this time he was being told by lawyers in the white house, that if he kept on doing this he would spend the rest of his life tangling with the criminal justice process, and that's exactly what has happened. >> gwen keyes fleming, that last line, about he was told by people in the white house that he would spend the rest of his life, basically, as criminal defendant trump, that's where we are tonight? >> i think that's true. but let me first say, amy lee is a brilliant defense attorney, so i would defer to her. >> oh stop. >> that's exactly the point. >> yes. then again, i believe i've said before, every prosecutor has a responsibility to establish the intent of the defendant when committing a crime, or when alleged to have committed a crime. so the various facts laid out by both andrew and amy lee go to the mens rhea. having been told over and over and over that there was no fraud, whether from chris crabs, whether from several people, including his own attorney general at doj, all of that would be broiled into the d. a.'s case to establish that there was sufficient intent to continue to spread lies in the face of evidence to the contrary. >> amy lee, what about that, when you hear william barr say that all of these lies that he is telling on january 2nd on the phone that are now in the indictment, 13 of those lies, that he was told by the people at the white house that all that stuff was untrue and told that he was facing criminal jeopardy if he continued to push it? >> he should have listened to his attorney then, lawrence. it's good that he is taking counsel's advice now, but mr. barr was trying to give him the best advice. in this whole process with the involvement of attorneys, because eight of the 19 defendants are lawyers, i keep going back to the rudy bauer statement that the speaker of the houston in arizona that i campaigned for, voted for, work for you, but i'm not gonna do anything illegal for you. mr. barr's council certainly would have served him well if he had followed it. but he didn't. >> andrew weissmann, i know how stressful it is for you to be listening to william barr saying reasonable things now after the way he conducted himself as donald trump's attorney general, especially the interference he ran on the mueller investigation. but his final point there about donald trump was being told not just don't say that but he was being told there is criminal jeopardy in what you are doing. >> yeah, so one thing that is interesting for if you step back and you think about the criminal cases that are going on, that's very much what was going on in the mar-a-lago documents case. so you're going to see the white house counsel and the staff there are going to be important witnesses as well as, indeed, some of his own private counsel, mr. corcoran, in both of these cases, because yes, they are examples, as amy lee said, of lawyers under indictment, but there will also be a lot of lawyers taking the stand in both of those cases to say, we told him what the line was. to gwen's point about proving mens rhea, that is critical. there is nothing better, and sometimes you don't have that at all, but if you have somebody's gonna be on the stand saying, oh he was told, if you do this you are going to be crossing the line, it's like game over. >> we're gonna squeeze in another quick break here. when we come back we will hear more of rudolph giuliani's defenses, and they will be a little more substantive than him saying i am a friend of rico. we'll be right back. ♪ there it is. that feeling you get... when you can du more with less asthma. it starts with dupixent. dupixent is not for sudden breathing problems. it's an add-on treatment for specific types of moderate-to-severe asthma. and can help improve lung function for better breathing in as little as two weeks. dupixent helps prevent asthma attacks... and can even reduce or eliminate oral steroids. can you picture it? dupixent can cause allergic reactions that can be severe. get help right away if you have rash, 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( ♪♪ ) arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects are injection site pain, fatigue, muscle pain, headache, and joint pain. rsv can be serious. talk to your doctor or pharmacist about arexvy today. rsv? make it arexvy. >> donald trump's criminal defense lawyers filed this motion today in the washington d. c. case, brought by special prosecutor jack smith for his conduct leading up to january sixth and his attempts to overturn the presidential election. basically the case that mirrors the charges in georgia. donald trump's defense lawyers in this case believe that jack smith's request for a trial next year is too soon. they would like to spend all the rest of this year studying the evidence of the case. they would also like to spend all of 2024, studying the evidence of the case. and after that, they would like to spend all of 2025, studying the evidence in the case. and they think, after all that, they will be ready for a trial in april of 2026, just about three years from now. they insist the amount of evidence in the case is overwhelming. here is one description of it. they say even assuming we could begin reviewing the documents today, we would need to proceed at a pace of 99,762 pages per day to finish the governments initial production by its proposed date for jury selection. that is the entirety of tolstoy's war and peace cover to cover. 78 times a day every day from now until jury selection. andrew weissmann, speaking as someone who has never finished war and peace, even once, it sounds like they have a point. >> they have a point in that due process requires that they be given sufficient time to prepare. i wouldn't be surprised if judge chutkan does not go with the date that was proposed by jack smith. but if you have been in the criminal or civil justice system, and of course judge chutkan has been in both, she knows that this is not a memorandum that is geared to her. the reason is, under this reasoning, the enron case which i prosecuted would still be awaiting trial. the mueller cases, i keep on using the manafort case as an example of a d. c. case that went to trial within 11 months, we'd still be waiting for that. page by page review is no longer done, whether in civil cases are criminal cases because of the vast volume of electronic data. you do electronic searches. that is just commonplace in all of these courtrooms. judge chutkan knows it, the defense lawyers know it, the prosecutors know it. this is written for someone else. but having said that, the real issue for her is, what is the delta of additional material that the government is turning over and how much time do they need to look at that material? remember, they've already gotten a lot from the january six committee, as we all did. so that delta is a thing that he needs to be focusing on and making sure that they have enough time to master that evidence and present it. in terms of what the defenses are to it. >> amy lee copeland, as a criminal defense lawyer, i don't know how many times a day you have had to read war and peace, but this does sound like a pretty heavy burden that they have. how much time could they, would a judge reasonably give them for this? >> i think they'd be better off asking for about a year from the date of indictment. one of the things at play in a federal case is a defendant has a right to a speedy trial, but the trouble has a real interest in a speedy trial, as well. given this case and the public interest in it, they really do. we've got a guy who is in a presidential race and this case needs to be decided sooner rather than later. this needs to be an accountability test. the april 2026, i agree with andrew, that was written for another audience that wasn't the judge, but the judge will do something more realistic, will consider the speedy trial factors and my best guess is it will be a year from the day of the indictment. >> all of these judges at this point in this case must be looking at every one of these filings, taking note anyway of every one of these filings and this certainly tells the judge in georgia what kind of a trial date to expect there. they're talking three years from now in the washington case so they will be asking for something similar to that or more in georgia. >> well it may very well be that each judge is watching, or having their clerks identify the different timelines, but let's remember, these are first, of all two different just diction,'s jurisdictions, state and federal, and at least four or three or four different judges, each of whom is going to have their own way of managing their docket, and their own responsibility to the constituents that much like amy lee indicated. so while there may be an awareness, i would be surprised if that awareness would really influence any particular judge to try and time the time schedule of another judges calendar. >> all right, we will squeeze in a quick break, when we come, back we will hear more from rudy giuliani's defense in his own words, including his insistence on his own personal legal right to what he calls, exaggerate, some people think means lie. we will be right back. be right back. age-related macular degeneration may lead to severe vision loss and if you're taking a multi-vitamin alone, you may be missing a critical piece... preservision. preservision areds 2 contains the only clinically proven nutrient formula recommended by the national eye institute to help reduce the risk of moderate to advanced amd progression. preservision is backed by 20 years of clinical studies. so ask your doctor about adding preservision and fill in a missing piece of your plan. like i did with preservision. now with ocusorb better absorbing nutrients. ♪ chevy silverado has what it takes to do it all. with up to 13 camera views. and the z71 off-road package. ♪ you ok? 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downy unstopables i'in-wash scent boosterss health and happiness. keep your laundry smelling fresh waaaay longer than detergent alone. if you want laundry to smell fresh for weeks, make sure you have downy unstopables in-wash scent boosters. >> here is more of what rudy giuliani is saying in his defense now that he is for the first time in his life a criminal defendant. >> but that has even noted in all the law about election cases, in which they granted everyone a certain degree of latitude in being wrong and exaggerating in having to extrapolate because you do not have all the facts, for example you don't get to vote until march. so you really can't tell exactly how many people in that state really voted, how many people voted who were dead, how many people who voted who had changed residence, how many people voted maybe -- more than once. those things can't be validated until later. >> gwen keyes fleming, it should have been interesting for him to have said that to georgia legislators, instead of telling them specifically the number of dead people that he lyingly claimed to have voted. >> well, lawrence, that was exactly my thought. i would assume it would also be the thought of the district attorney and her team upon listening to that statement. if there was any question that if the fact could not have been known until later in time, i think she would argue that that helps her case, the statements that were made at the time in december i believe it was the 3rd and the 10th of december, they could not have been true, or perhaps mr. giuliani knew that they were not, true or could not be confirmed until a later point in time. so i'm quite confident that her and her team are watching very closely anything that all of the defendants say going forward. >> so amy lee copeland, it seems like rudy giuliani just give himself a referred on the witness stand when he is claiming that he believed all these things that he was saying to the legislature when the prosecutors could just play what we just heard him say here. >> he did not do himself any favors, lawrence, and his prosecutors want him to say the investigation does it until the jury enters its verdict. so he is not helping himself. andrew, it is just so stunning that giuliani is now the trump of the story, because it was donald trump who would be occasionally saying things like, this where you are pointing out, that cannot be brought into court, what he just said can be brought into this trial? >> so there are so many problems with what he just, said and as we were just talking about this, let's just remember he is being disbarred in new york and in d. c., the claims that he was just exaggerating have been rejected by the d. c. panel. he still does not have any proof to support the claims he made there. also, he is being charged in georgia in connection with the statements with respect to ruby freeman and her daughter. and he is being sued by them in d. c. in a civil case, in that civil case he has admitted that liability, he has said i intentionally lied about them. not exaggerated, intentionally lied. that is, you know, he sounds perfectly calm on this call, it is important to remember that had real consequences to those two human beings, and he has admitted that. this was not an exaggeration. so, again his statement taking gwen's point, he is really not helping himself out, because that conflict between exaggerating and what he is said to a federal judge in d. c., can be used in court. >> gwen keyes fleming, i know a couple million people out there in the audience are wondering right now, what exactly is the difference between exaggerating and lying for a lawyer? >> well, first of all, any lawyer is required by the rules of ethics to zealously represent their client, but, there are even bounce to that just like there are bounds to someone's first amendment rights. you do not get to perpetrate lies, you do not get to commit crimes, either in your zealous representation of a client, or in exercising your first amendment right. so again, as the district attorney has laid out the indictment, you can see where it is not just statements, but it's also actions. all of the overt actions that were committed in furtherance of this conspiracy, particularly the rico charge. so again, there are just limits to both of those basic promises. when you crossed that limit, potentially if there is sufficient evidence, you can commit a crime. >> gwen keyes fleming, amy copeland, andrew weissmann, thank you all very much for staying with me throughout this hour. really appreciate it. we will be right back. neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. to help keep me sharp. neuriva: think bigger. detect this: living with hiv, i learned that i can stay undetectable with fewer medicines. that's why i switched to dovato. dovato is a complete hiv treatment for some adults. no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable than dovato. detect this: most hiv pills contain 3 or 4 medicines. dovato is as effective with just 2. if you have hepatitis b, don't stop dovato without talking to your doctor. don't take dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking dofetilide. this can cause serious or life-threatening side effects. if you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop dovato and get medical help right away. serious or life-threatening lactic acid buildup and liver problems can occur. tell your doctor if you have kidney or liver problems or if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. dovato may harm an unborn baby. most common side effects are headache, nausea, diarrhea, trouble sleeping, tiredness, and anxiety. detect this: i stay undetectable with fewer medicines. ask your doctor about switching to dovato. you founded your kayak company because you love the ocean- not spreadsheets. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire my a1c was up here; now, it's down with rybelsus®. matching yohis a1c?escription. it's down with rybelsus®. my doctor told me rybelsus® lowered a1c better than a leading branded pill and that people taking rybelsus® lost more weight. i got to my a1c goal and lost some weight too. rybelsus® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't take rybelsus® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it. stop rybelsus® and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or an allergic reaction. serious side effects may include pancreatitis. gallbladder problems may occur. tell your provider about vision problems or changes. taking rybelsus® with a sulfonylurea or insulin increases low blood sugar risk. side effects like nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea may lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems. need to get your a1c down? you may pay as little as $10 per prescription. amazon has great deals on everything kids need. instead of spending more, he spent less. seemed obvious. why would a person spend more money? he's eight and he gets it. i'm 10. well, that's less impressive. >> tonight's last word is ♪ ♪ ♪ new double chicken chopped salads. ♪ the new summer family meal. starting at $24. only at el pollo loco. exaggerating, that is what the defendant giuliani now calls lying. that is tonight's last word. the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts now. >> tonight, the new scheduling proposal from donald trump's legal team, hoping for a trial in april of 2026. this as the former president and current defendant is back on the campaign trail. and with less than one week until the first republican debate, we now know how allies of ron desantis want him to deal with trump. then seized, but not silenced, pick kansas news paper raided by police. the publisher and editor of the -- is here as the 11th hour gets underway on this thursday night.

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