Transcripts For MSNBCW All 20240704

Plus, hes the Infamous Trump hatchet man, caught plotting Fake Electors. We must be prepared to lobby our republican legislatures. How roger stone is responding tonight. And meet the judge who helped rollback your reproductive rights, because doctors love looking at babies. When all in starts, right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. Fulton County District attorney fani willis was prosecuting donald trump and 18 other criminal criminals interacted tearing charges, announced her office is investigating threats against grand jurors who indicted the ex president. Nbc News Reporter Blayne Alexander and ryan reilly reported yesterday that Trump Supporters leaked reported addresses of grand jurors online, along with their names, which appeared in indictment. This is just the latest example of threatening behavior by Trump Supporters directed at the various people working to hold them accountable for the crimes he is accused of. We also learned yesterday that a texas woman was arrested and charged with Making Threats towards judge tanya chutkan, who was overseeing trumps federal january six trial. According to the criminal complaint, abigail, joe shry, left a threatening voice mail intended for chutkan, where she refers to judge with a racial slur, and said trump if he doesnt get elected in 2024 we are coming to kill you, so tread lightly before using another slur. She also targeted a Texas Democratic congresswoman and vocal trump critics saying, quote, we want to kill Sheila Jackson lee. When police questioned shry, they should reported or, as she stated she had no plans to travel to washington d. C. Or houston to carry out anything she stated, adding that if Sheila Jackson lee comes to shrys hometown, and we need to worry. Get that . This woman, visited by the fbi, threatened congresswoman Sheila Jackson lee to law enforcement. Couldnt help herself. We have learned about all of that in just the past two days. If we go back to last week, theres the Armed Utah Man killed by federal agents after making specific threats of violence against President Biden and District Attorney alvin bragg, who he threatened to shoot. Greg is the one Prosecuting Trump in the manhattan hush money case. I could spend the entire hour listing threats made by Trump Supporters against the president s perceived enemies. Fani willis says she has been on the Receiving End of racist threats as well. Threats happen in public life. They are not contained to one part of the ideological spectrum. But what is happening here is part of the larger story. Part of the long history of menace and violence as a form of political power wielded by donald trump in the maga right. These are not just isolated incidents. This is from the top down. Trump knows what he is doing when he goes on social media and shares a picture of judge chutkan with opposed calling her an activist judge, accusing her of running election interference. Just today Trumps Campaign released this video, attacking jack smith for subpoenaing access to his twitter account. How dare lowlife prosecutor, deranged jack smith, thats right, hes deranged, break into my former twitter account without informing me, and indeed trying to completely high disinterestedy from me. Its obvious what don trump is doing, what he is trying to cultivate, a sense of menace. The possibility of reprisal, retribution, violence, from his die hard supporters. When he calls the prosecutors calling him deranged, accusing him of committing an atrocity. This is me bending over backwards to be charitable. Lets say trump turns to be unbothered when his supporters make good on the implicit requests in his inflammatory language. I want to be clear, because i think this gets memory hold. Were not talking about hypotheticals or Thought Experiments were obstructions. A few months ago a qanon supporter bashed in the head of Nancy Pelosis elderly husband with a hammer after breaking into her house and describing how he was there for the speaker who he wanted to torture in her own home. That man, after that breakin, was then excused and defended, outright lied about by nearly everyone on the political right. From elon musk to donald trump himself. In the run up to the 2018, another thing that has been memory hold. A guy with the trump than who mailed pipe bombs, the didnt go off, but they were real pipe bombs, two prominent trump critics in the government and media. There was also the as yet on caught pipe bonner another thing that is memory holed, in the early hours of january six who tried to, with actual bombs, blow up the dnc and the rnc the night before january 6th. Of course there was january six itself, when Trump Supporters stormed the capitol and attempted to over turn the government. Some insurrectionist constructed a gallows, chanting they wanted to hang mike pence. Apparently top trump thought that would not be such a bad idea. This is who donald trump has always been. His personal cowardice aside. A guy who thinks Political Violence is acceptable, unacceptable means to an end. A desirable one in some cases. Dont forget, he spent his first president ial campaign encouraging attendees to assault protesters. Ive got a notice in case you see. We have wonderful Security Guys who said mr. Trump, there maybe somebody with tomatoes in the audience. [laughter] so if you see somebody get ready to throw a tomato, not the crap out of, them when you . Seriously. [applause] i promise you, i will pay for the legal fees, i promise. So when trump posts to social media the picture of judge chutkan, lets call it what it is. He is obviously fomenting violence against judges and prosecutors. If something terrible happens, what are we going to conclude . Every warning sign is blinking bright red. And of course, yes, most Trump Supporters, the vast majority are not violent. They will do something violent. Even among those Making Threats, this shry woman, for example, most probably are not serious. Again, the vast majority. But this is kind of a numbers game here. Its a big country. So small percentage of them are. We know that to be true. Again, this is not an abstraction. No longer trump keeps exciting x inciting an agitating, its a roll of the days each time. The greater the odds are that that small group of people who could do something will do something. It only has to be a few. Dont trumps utilizing that reality to increase the cost of prosecuting him, to increase the cost of crossing him in the same way that a mafia boss would. He has been explicit. He posted himself, quote, if you go after me, im coming after you i am not a lawyer. I do not claim to know what council is actionable illegal sense. Furthermore the First Amendment is broad for a reason. As a journalist, i like that way. Put that aside. Morally the, morally, we all know what is happening. We all know who is culpable for what has already happened and what may be to come. Mark my words. George clooney is a conservative attorney and former republican. And is a whitecollar criminal Defense Attorney. Both join me now. George, im trying not to be histrionic here and Ring The Alarm Bell too much, but it does seem to me like just in terms of what we have seen in the past few days, that there is, ive got a real worry here about the combination of the president s words and rhetoric, the targeting of specific individuals, its not an abstraction, heres the judge, here is the prosecutor, here are the jurors, and what that means for the orderly administration of justice. What do you think . Youre not being histrionic and youre absolutely right. There is no doubt about it, this is what donald trump does. He wants to foment violence. He engages in what is called parallax this sometimes where he says one thing it would be terrible people would be so upset and this might happen and hes pretending not to be endorsing it but he is endorsing it. He does want it. The danger between what you are right to say that Political Violence can happen on both sides, any side, but the difference is, we have a political leader who was once president united states, who got 70 million votes or so in the last election, and he is fomenting the violence. Hes doing it quite purposely. He is a narcissistic sociopath. The shrinks arent allowed to say that, but you and i are, and we could look it up, and he is a man devoid of any social conscience whatsoever. Remember when he went to visit the synagogue in pittsburgh but was tragically attacked, he came back and all he would talk about, he tweeted, the first thing he tweeted, what a great reception he got. The lives dont mean anything to him. All it means, the only thing that means anything to him is his own wellbeing. He is now more desperate than ever, which is why he is doing all these things. Theres also a testing that is happening here, scott, in terms of, first of all, someone who was practicing in court, i just cant a mansion any other defendant out on bail doing this kind of thing and not being remanded. Am i crazy . Obviously its hard to compare apples to apples because the guys a past president and he has a platform. But what anyone else get away with . This of course not. No one would get away with it. I know that judges, the two federal judges into state judges are trying to balance the fact that hes running for office, and whether this is political speech or not this isnt political speech or taits beach. Itss Political Violence speech. And you simply cant have it because dont front is gonna learn one thing sooner than later, and his lawyers are. To the criminal Justice System and a federal judge a running his life right now, whether he believes it or not. Hes going to find out that is sitting federal judge has a lot more power than he has despite him having 30 or 40 of maggots borders. Heres what should happen. In order to violate a court order, the judges have to draft that order and tell him the political speech is one thing, but the administration of justice, attacking witnesses, influence injuries, is a whole another. You should not attack the state prosecutors or the state prosecutor. You may not do x, y, nze, because none of that has to do with running for office or defending yourself. Im going to put it in writing. If you do a, b, and see again, this is whats going to happen. Now try me. I have a Lifetime Appointment as a federal judge, and im more prepared to put you under house arrest, fine you civilly, or criminally lock you up until you get the message. These are the realities of the criminal Justice System. I think trump is ignoring it, or his lawyers cant control him, but this is his future. While hes out on bail, hes free, but in the criminal Justice System hes not likely to remain free. The other thing is, hes a criminal defendants. As judge chutkan said, mr. Trump, like every american, has the First Amendment right to free speech, but that right is not absolute. Hes a criminal defendant. Hes going to have restrictions like every single other defendant. Exactly. You dont, go to rikers, theres lots of people not out on bail who engaged in petty larceny. Theyre not out. They dont get to rail against the prosecutor. Youve got a lot of privilege to begin with. And george, to scotts point, what we are seeing is this testing. Im going to keep doing it, and im good to use the paralympic this, im going to use i didnt say it, i read tweeted, until you do something. What are you going to do . Im donald trump. Thats right. Thats what his lawyers will do, theyll push back on him but he wont listen. He doesnt believe that he will, that this will happen to him, and if it happens to him he thinks that his supporters will come to his rescue through their violence and intimidation. In fact, the point you should make us any other defendant would have been remanded already. A perfect example, the federal conditions of release issued by the Magistrate Judge in d. C. Say one of the conditions of release is that you not val violate any law, federal or state, and what did he do . Just the other day he went out there and said, he basically told a grand jury witness that grand jury witness, former Lieutenant Governor duncan in georgia, that witness should not appear before the grand jury. Thats interfering. Thats absolutely interfering with the grand jury investigation and obstructing, trying to intimidate a witness. Thats against the law. Its chris, whats really dame about this, i dont think donald trump is smart at all. Whats dom about this is, he keeps attacking judges in the prosecutors and the witnesses, but the judges and the prosecutors, when he gets convicted, and he would have to run the table to not be convicted on 91 counts, these are the same individuals that are going to recommend to a judge how much time he should get, whether hes president or not. I dont think hes going to be president. More importantly, hes attacking a judge that can lock him up. Those are the people are the last people he should be attacking. That may work for him to raise money, but legally, and right now the criminal Justice System is running his life. Those are the last two people you want to be attacking if you get convicted, because those state and federal judges, after going to trial or not pleading out, theyre going to lock you up. They have no compunction to sentence you. Scott, ive never had the pleasure of being your client, but thats sowed legal advice, i think. If you ever find yourself in any of the situations, George Conway and a. Scott bolden, thank you very much. Thank you. Coming up, don trumps lawyer says the public has a need, sorry, i couldnt even get through it, has a need for problems when it comes to his d. C. Trial. You will not believe when they think that trial should actually happen. But first, he has been a key part of every trump scheme for the last eight years. Roger stone is now on tape plotting trumps attempted coup. We will show that to you as well, next. A well, next [sneeze]. 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They have Package Deals no one else has. [son inflates] we can do it go to your happy price priceline wow, you get to watch all your favorite stuff. Go its to die for. Ice and its all right here. Streaming was never this easy, you know. This is the way. You really went all out didnt you . Um, its called commitment. Could you turn down the volume . Here, you can try. Get way more into what your into when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. Tonight we have new footage, courtesy of our colleagues at the beat with ari melber, showing one of Donald Trumps oldest advisers dictating the plan to steal the election before the president ial race had even been called. Were going to play that for you in a bit. But first it is worth remembering exactly who that advisor is and what role he played in the attempted coup. Ill tell you about longtime republican operative roger stone, selfdescribed dirty trickster, a man with nixon tattooed on his back. Stones name has not come up much recently. Surprisingly he does not appear in either of the election related indictments of the ex president. He has been a key figure in Donald Trumps biggest plots. Ahead of the 2016 election roger stone was a go between for trump world and those seek to disseminate the illegally stolen emails. Stone admitted he had direct contract with contact with Julian Assange and wikileaks, which published the lakes he had hacked from democrats. I have communicated with assange. I believe the next tranche of documents pertain to the clinton foundation. But there is no telling what the actual October Surprise might be. Stone then lied to investigators, obstructed justice, it emitted witnesses in an attempt to keep the truth from coming out. Robert mueller brought criminal charges against stone in january, 2019, as part of his investigation of russian interference in the 2016 election. Stone was convicted of seven felonies by a jury of his peers and sentenced to over three years in prison. But likely, stone had a good buddy in the white house. Donald trump commuted his sentence just days before he was set to report to a federal prison. It was a massive controversy in july of 2020. We covered it here less than four months before the election. It might seem like an unforced political error, pardoning your former political body in the middle of your election campaign, but Roberts Roger stone had another job to do, when he couldnt do from behind bars. He became a linchpin in the effort to steal the 2020 election. In new footage we see stone had the playbook for the attempted coup as early as november 5th, 48 hours election a into days before joe biden was declared the winner. Listen to stone in this video, shut shot by a danish documentarian, an encrypted group chat to create false slates of electors. Although State Officials in all 50 states must ultimately certify the results of the voting in their state, the final decision as to who the State Legislatures authorize be sent to the Electoral College is a decision made solely by the legislature. Any legislative body may decide, on the basis of overwhelming evidence of fraud, to send electors to the Electoral College who accurately reflect the president s legitimate victory in their state was, which wise illegally denied him through fraud. We must be prepared to lobby our republican legislatures, by personal contact and by demonstrating the overwhelming will of the people in their state, in each state that this may need to happen. Not exactly the gettysburg address, but that is exactly what happened. Republicans in seven states follow that plan, creating bogus slates of pro trump electors. They swore on an affidavit that was the real one, except for two states that hedged. This was key to the plan for january 6th. Allies pressured trumps to recognize those Fake Electors during the certification of the vote. As january 6th approached, roger stone remained enmeshed in the preparations. He participated in planning meetings with other trump allies including the infamous one at the Willard Hotel, on the night of january 50 round up the crowd, gathering the capital. This is nothing less than an Epic Struggle for the future of this country between dark and light. [applause] between the godly and a godless. Between good and evil. And we will win this fight, or america will step off into 1000 years of darkness. We dare not fail. I will be with you tomorrow, shoulder to shoulder. One see what you will about the guy, but at least he doesnt have the absolute creepiest affect you have ever encountered in any human alive. Stone also mused about violence and associated with members of the proud boys and oath keepers, four of whom escorted him back to the Willard Hotel that night. Two of those men, along with several members of both organizations, absence been found guilty by a jury of their peers, of the very serious crime of seditious conspiracy. So, when you take a step back, you look at the fact. It certainly looks like donald trump sprung roger stone from prison so that he could plot a violent coup on trumps behalf. Stone has yet to face legal accountability for his actions. But you have to wonder how long that will remain the case. The case. Depressant. Vraylar helped give it a lift. Adding vraylar to an antidepressant. Is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms. Better than an antidepressant alone. And in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Report unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. Antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. 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I did it my way should they be weighing the timing of the Super Tuesday in the case of the georgia one or the Iowa Caucuses in the case of jack smiths one . Well, to some degree they might accommodate a few days here and there. But, i do not think that should govern the schedule for pursuing these cases. You dont get immunity for two years and run up to an election just by saying, hey, im a candidate. Drama these investigations theyve been going on for a while. Everyone knew about them even before he announced his candidacy. So, if there is a chance to get it resolved before the election it should be because the American People should know these are crimes, or potential crimes or, involve moral former trump attorney bill barr calling for the speedy trial of his old boss. Right now are they waiting for trumps legal team to respond to Fulton County georgia district fani williss proposed Trial Date Of March 1st 2024. Tonight trump said hes canceling his must anticipated dollar jail rebuttal to the Fulton County charges. He says his lawyers have put legal followings. The statement for that. A short time ago we got trumps teams response to special counsel jack smiths proposed January 2nd 2024 trial date for the ex president s january 6th case. Trump is asking for just a bit more time, quote, Donald J Trump through council respectfully request the court placed this case on the april 2026 trial calendar. Is a criminal defense and Savannah Georgia also served as a fellow chief of in the Southern District of georgia. Andrew weissmann is the cohost of the prosecuting donald trump podcast and both join me now. All right andrew, lets first hear your reaction to the april 2026. That seems good, that seems fair, that seems reasonable. So, look, obviously thats absurd, but youd expect doesnt usually want a fast trial so its really not to be faulted. I do want to caution people that it is important to remember that as much as people want to see people held account and have a trial, part of the rule of law means the defense is entitled to prepare. So, i think the issue for judge chutkan and also the issue in georgia is essentially how much time do they really need. And d. C. , what is the delta of what they already had because of the january Six Committee sort of data dump . I mean, they have lots of information, so, Donald Trumps team is not starting. So, the issue is sort of what is that incremental how much time do they really need . I think the government has been unrealistic and asking for their dates and clearly the defense is asking for far too much time. But, remember, donald trump has handed judge chutkan something that she can wield which is she said i will pick a foster dates if i see that you are obstructing the integrity of the process. He sure has been. So, that is something that is really going to play on her mind putting this off too far because of what he is going to do to witnesses, and essentially tampering with the jury pool when he shouldnt be doing that. Emily, what do you think . Whats your response . When you said january 2026 i said, who that seems like a pretty sporty request. There is a sing pigs get fed hogs get slaughtered. That does not sound like a reasonable request to me. I mean, to andrews point, i dont want to mess up the details here but, i think its Mike Matt Again who is a long Democratic State sort of political leader in the majority and the state house in illinois who has been indicted. I think his trial is like three years between the indictment and trial. Public corruption trials and these kinds of cases can take a long time. If its werent, i guess i would say, if the republicans werent so urgent, if it was independent of that, what do you think as someone who also boxes Defense Attorney would be a fair amount of time for trial like this . Well, certainly not 2026. I think within a year of indictment certainly would be a fair amount of time depending on the number of documents. The real problem is Jury Selection would all four of those cases but thats probably another show. Since you said it, of followup why. Well, you dont have to have jurors that know nothing about the case or never heard about it or never heard the name donald trump. Whos donald trump . But you do need an impartial juror. Right, who is he . Never heard of him. But you have to have a jury pool that has fair and impartial jurors on it. Hesy very polarizing figure and my concern would be just the ability of a court to sit through and find enough jurors that say they can be fair and impartial. And you, in terms of the next steps here, i mean obviously there is a classic negotiation here. Prices like they say january 2nd, we see april 2026. Both sides are trying to anchor the negotiations as far away as possible. There is this august 28th hearing were chutkan says she is going to pick a date. Do we think, i guess what happens next . Does she just look at both these and say, heres a day. Its judge dearie once said, of the special master frame, he once said when the party is kept arguing i dont think you understands this isnt a discussion. Judge chutkan is going to pick a date. That will be the dates. She is a no nonsense judge, and, to emilys point, i do think a year is reasonable. One data point for everyone is the man of her case which also involved reams of paper where paul didnt have this kind of heads up in terms of preparing and it involved lots of overseas evidence. That went to trial within 11 months in the d. C. Courthouse. So, i think that judge chutkan obviously is going to be talking to and is going to know with other judges have done in cases where their high profile and what is sort of a reasonable date. So, i think thats something that is a pretty good rule of thumb. Thats a pretty good touch, john. Amy lee, the defendant, one of the defendants in the case in georgia donald trump had promised a rock solid reputations of the and the fact that joe biden won the 2020 election hes going to protect that to great fanfare for monday. Do advice from his lawyers, do you think he got good counsel from his lawyers . I think he got great counsel. Everyone has the right to remain silent, but not everyone can remain silent, and that was good advice from his lawyers. Probably best to just put that legal filing. Although, be careful what you put in a legal filing as all of his lawyers are learning as they are facing multiple penalties and disbarment hearings across the land. Amy lee copeland and andrew thank you very much. Youre welcome. Thank, you chris. Still to come,s one of these men has overseen a soft economic landing after one of the greatest disruptions in the countrys history. The other faces nearly 100 Felony Counts in cities found in the eastern seabirds. So, there are tied in the latest president ial poll, and come again. Thats ahead. Anything that i say is legally indisputable. Like. Apartments. Com has the widest variety of variety. Apartments. Com was the reason that apartments were invented. Heck we got more spaces than space thats entirely incalculable. Incalculable. Oh, i think thats legalese for. For true. [laughing] apartments. Com the place to find a place. I have Type 2 Diabetes, but i manage it well. Jardiance its a little pill with a big story to tell. I take oncedaily jardiance, at each days staaart. As time went on it was easy to seee. Im lowering my a1c. 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Side effects may include allergic reactions, injection site pain, headache, eyebrow, eyelid drooping, and eyelid swelling. Tell your doctor about your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, and medications including Botulinum Toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. See for yourself at botoxcosmetic. Com. Im going to show you a picture, and some of the people in it you will recognize and some of you will not. So, right there in the center of this picture is the supreme Justice Clarence thomas. You probably recognize him. Over there on the left is podcaster and republican senator ted cruz of texas. You probably recognize him. That looks like a really nice room, youre right. Thats the library that belongs to billionaire harlan crow. Crow of course is the guy that pay the private boarding School Tuition for clarences nephew. Also the guy who bought the house for thomass mother who lives rent free. Hes a guy whos taken thomas on all kinds of luxurious trips. His library was used for the occasion to swear in this guy, somebody probably dont know. His name is james ho, and is sworn into the federal judiciary by Justice Clarence thomas in 2018 after being nominated by donald trump. Whoa is a rightwing lawyer, Federal Society Made Man who got a lifetime judicial appointments to the court of appeals circuit. He is in the news now because of ex skripal opinion he wrote about the Abortion Pill. It started yesterday, thats where the court of appeals, which is the most right wing pill in the country. Opinion by another rightwing judge in texas, the guy in our murillo, who tried to singlehandedly take the Abortion Pill of all shelves nationwide everywhere, through judicial feel. This case that has been working its way through federal judiciary, one of the challenges for this lawsuit is that the plaintiffs who are suing to get the drug taken off the shelf, they are a bunch of antiabortion doctors. For them to have standing in federal court, to even get to an analysis that merits case, they have to show they havent injure. What is the injury . What injury does a doctor have if a patient somewhere takes this Abortion Pill . Or if the Abortion Pill is accessible broadly . Its a good question. Well, and an opinion written by james ho who that guy whos in the heartland colibrary with harland and ted cruz. That guy took a bonkers position, writing in his opinion that the plaintiffs, these are the antiabortion doctors, a periods Aesthetic Injury. Thats around for standing, im not making this up. Im going to call it here, quote, Unborn Babies, you know what his politics are from that, Unborn Babies will be called fetuses, are a source of profound joy for those who view them, parents easily share ocean falls what loved ones. Doctors delight in working with their unborn patients, and experience and Aesthetic Injury when they are aborted. Yeah. Again, i did not make this up, this is an actual judicial opinion, published. He wrote that down and put it out in the world. As a legal matter, according to this judge, james ho, every doctor has a legally cognizable interest in people making babies for them to look at as a matter of law. They suffer illegally actionable injuries if you do not give them that. Your room is there to make a baby pictures and babies and fetuses for them pretty deranged. Now, ultimately, The Other Two hard right judges on that free judge panel did not agree with thoughts parts of james ho decision, the most underages contention, he is writing part concurrence. The three judge panels, these three judge just, they did by a huge part of this anti abortion lawsuit, this pashas lawsuit. They issued an opinion to massively rollback access to mifepristone back to the way it was in 2016 seven years ago before the fda, thats the agency that actually makes a decision about this stuff and has some expertise on it, made the Abortion Pill easier to obtain. Nothing changes for now. The affects our state because it can go up to the supreme court. But again, what do you think the 63 trump is going to do with mifepristone . What do you think theyre going to say . Do you think theyre Gonna Kick It on Standing Grounds or find standing for these antiabortion doctors who incorporate after and followed this rightwing judge and got kicked up full of other rightwing judges who think that there isnt a static injury if you use mifepristone because youre robbing ob gyn of the joy of looking at your fetus. The thing to recognize, is that none of these people or the circles of power there meshed in, james ho clarence thomas, harlan crow what ted cruz, donald trump, the republican party, none of them will stop until every abortion is banned everywhere in this country in every form, surgical, or medical. They are not going to stop unless they are completely and totally politically defeated, not once, not twice, but over and over again. That is the only way to stop them. Were going to talk about that, next. And papa is hungry. And while youre hittin the trail, im hitting your cooler. Oh, cheddar ive got hot dog buns and your cutrate Car Insurance might not pay for all this. So get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, like me. Roar. sfx family screams in background meet the future. A chef. A designer. And, ooh, an engineer. All learning to save and spend their money with chase. The chefs cooking up firsts with her new debit card. Hungry . Uhuh. The designers eyeing sequins. 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The other side of my brain cant meltdown because apparently donald trump is a coin flip from being back in the oval office. Who worked on numerous president ial campaigns including Barack Obamas 2008 and 2012 campaigns and he joins me now. Is that how you feel, joe, whats your take away here . I think it looks pretty close and some ways, but i also think that we just as a republican should Pay Attention to the data. I think that they overwhelmingly believe that trump lost the 2020 election to joe biden, that includes 40 of republicans who say that. I think those numbers are problematic with trump Going Forward. I think if there is an alternative, and i suspect one will emerge, republicans will be looking for an alternative. That is even apart from all the other issues that are going on with donald trump right now. These are likely to weigh on a big chunk of the republican base. Part of this, i, think is that theres a time like a little bit that im sort of telling myself. So, you are finding that 24 of Republican Voters says the georgia indictment makes them less likely to vote for trump. We saw some new State Polling today in New Hampshire that dropping ten points from the number hed gotten pre these latest rounds so theres some erosion happening there. I guess the theory is that people are not paying that much attention and this will take a while to work through the system, but a trial and conviction should have a really significant effect. I think youre right, theyre not paying that much attention right now but even the fact of the numbers you cited and i sided show if they are paying more attention than they normally would this far out from an election. We have grown into a time when the primary seasons got an elongated and on both parties, and people are going to be campaigning earlier. I think you are going to have people on the republican side very aggressive about making the case against donald trump. I think they have to. You know, i did a lot of work in new jersey and i saw Chris Christie up close for many years working against him and in some of the races. Hes a formal prosecutor, i think hes the guy to watch Going Forward on the republican side. Im not saying to win, but to really press a case against donald trump. I think if christie does it, others will likely jump on the bandwagon. So, what you are saying is sort of two things to think about. What would be the effect of trials or convictions in those hypothetical head to head matchups . But, what were saying is, and i think to sort of conventionalism is that there is nothing that could happen to shake him and the republican primary. In fact, may be indictments and prosecutions helped him in some perverse way. Youre saying thats not true, you said theres some signs in the data that these things do matter, that they are going to affect the calculation of primary voters and that they could open the field a bit. Yeah, i think it could. For example, one question we are asked and we got 63 of all voters agreed that trump tried to overturn free and fair elections. But, that number is very high. 64 among independents, and 37 report amongst republicans. So, he has given people an opportunity to make a case against him with his own actions in the past and i think some of those folks are going to be very aggressive in pressing that case, and why it should be disqualifying for him to be republican nominee. It also seems to be no one can predict the future obviously, but the macroeconomic picture is gotten better particularly in the past few months weve seen real wages going back and household disposable income. That, on the other side of Those Heads To heads can matter a lot for what joe bidens numbers are looking like, and that also might be something which is a lag showing up in the polling and data. I think itll take time for those numbers, i think theyre going to have to be sustained over a long period of time Going Forward. Here, were pretty distant distance away from primaries and obviously come to the challenge. But, even from the election. So, i think it is something to watch, but i think youre right that theres some trends there that will probably give them some comfort at this moment. All right, joe benson, thank you so much for your time tonight. Thank you for having me, chris. Thats all in this thursday night, alex wagner tonight starts right now, good evening alex. Night, alex chris, you know s bonkers filing that Trump Defense just put forward for us all to digest, they point out that we are entering economy though with all this. I think what joels saying is that appears that as well. There is speculation about how all these indictments are going to affect him, but nobody really nobody knows and kudos to you for hammering that home repeatedly. Its when i hear things to say. By