as the public defense. >> john got eat never even had for indictments at once. they're worried they can't beat him in the ballot box. >> tonight sweeping rico charges for the ex president and his foot soldiers. >> no laws were written for any organization that turns itself into a criminal ongoing organization. >> involving legal strategies for the maga inner circle. >> great a get a great criminal defense lead lawyer. you're gonna. get >> late filing for mark meadows to move the fulton county charges to federal court and which of the four criminal trials of donald trump's most important. which will go to trial first? >> i did everything right and they indicted me. >> when all in starts, right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. tonight we are processing the aftermath of the latest sweeping indictment of donald trump, delivered by a georgia grand jury less than 24 hours ago, announced last evening. fulton county district attorney fani willis accuses the ex president of being involved in a criminal enterprise to reverse the 2020 election results under the states racketeering law. in a press conference last night, willis said she will seek a speedy trial and a start date within the next six months and if donald trump must turn himself into the authorities in fulton county by the end of next week as will his 18 indicted coconspirators. so this is now the fourth indictment of the ex president in a little over four months. it brings the total number of felony charges he faces two 91. as the folks that insider noted, before donald trump the average number of felonies charged for the president united states was zero. after the georgia indictment it's up to 1.9 indictments for prayers per president averaged across all 35 men. don trump has the roommate problem. when you have a friend who complains about their ban roommate and then they get a new roommate and they keep complaining and then the third roommate, who was also apparently terrible, until you're forced to conclude that it is your friend who is in fact the bad roommate. any rational person would have to conclude that it is far more likely that donald trump is the bad roommate, the cereal wrongdoer, than what he claims, which is that the whole world is out to get him. but all the people that support him, the party, republican allies, will not state that obvious truth. so instead every time he commits a new offense or he gets charged with committing an offense we all already know, they have to come up with a painful new form of some of pleading. it goes all the way back to donald trump's first impeachment after he was caught red-handed to extort of foreign leader in manufacturing dirt on his political opponent until the election. that's why republicans claim it should be up to the voters to judge him in the next election. >> removing removing the presents not a last resort. we have an election november, which is a far better and a lot less damaging remedy. >> that decision needs to be made by the voters. >> i would say let the voters decide. >> well, we did. we let the voters decide. and they voted him out by 5 million votes. and then, after he was voted out, don trump concocted a scheme to destroy the american constitutional republic. he incited a violent insurrection at the capital which led to his second impeachment. senate republicans managed to delay that second impeachment trial until after trump left office. then they said where he was no longer president it made no sense to impeach him. see how that works? let someone else deal with it. >> we have no power to convict and disqualify a former officeholder who is now a private citizen. we have a criminal justice system in this country. we have civil litigation. and former presidents are not immune from being accountable by either one. >> so first impeachment what the voters decide, we let the voters decide, he tries to form a coup but it's too late because he's no longer president so let the courts sort him out. so the special pleading by republicans can you continued and for criminal indictment as a court started to sort things out. when manhattan district attorney alvin bragg charge trump with the hush bunny money payments in 2016 they just said he was a rogue local prosecutor out to get trump for something that happened a long time ago. but when the president ex president was caught with boxes of classified documents, they said the national prosecutor, not a local prosecutor, but this was the justice part being weaponized by joe biden. what about joe biden's garage? and when that same special counsel jack smith brought the second federal indictment against trump for trying to steal the 2020 election, they said he was trying to take away the ex presidents first amendment rights. now that he's been prosecuted in georgia under the racketeering statute, not the weaponized biden justice department, now we're back to another rogue prosecutor going after him for political reasons for political jurisdiction. when you put it all together it's ludicrous. it's obviously plainly reverse engineered around defending donald trump overall else. we know that. the people offering these defendant defenses know that. to lindsey graham today brought back an old head. let the voters to. >> the american people can decide whether they want him to be president or not. they should be decided at the ballot box, not a bunch of liberal jurisdictions trying to put the man in jail. >> the voters did choose. they chose. i was there. i covered it. you are there to, lindsey, in 2020, and then donald trump unleashed a mob to bash in the brains of the capitol police and erected gallows to call for mike pence to be hanged. which he wasn't, luckily. as ridiculous is this all seem, those are important principle here. this is actually where we tip the foundational little. it's best embodied in an off the court log, ahmaud monologue that comes from a political science blog, it goes like this, conservatism consists of one proposition, there must be in groups who the law protects but does not bind, alongside our groups on the law binds but does not protect. it goes hand in hand with another saying, another way of saying which is often attributed to latin american dictators goes like this, for my friends, everything, for my enemies, the law. the core idea here, which animates all the defenses for donald trump and his frankly pathetic lackeys, is that there is no such thing is democratic quality in the law. that's a fiction. or ludicrous lee naive or not even desirable. no, that's not what is the reality or something we should want. what we should want and what there is are people who should be in power and they can do whatever they want to the other people who should be subject to that power. and it depends on which side of the line you're on. fani willis and alvin bragg, who the president calls racist, you can figure out why, jack smith, they're the wrong kind of people. they don't get the power to prosecute trump. the law should not be in their hands. the law should not protect them. they should not be able to wield the law. donald trump, well, he represents the right kind of people who the law should never touch. the law should be in his hands and he can do with it whatever he wants. there is no value neutral sense of equal justice. none of it. it is cynicism all the way down. it's the core contention of authoritarianism, of democratic right-wing reactions through literally the centuries. going back and it's the core contention of donald trump himself who hates democracy and has always been kind of clear about that, it's the core contention that animated the sack of the capitol, the core contention that animates all our politics at this moment. is there really such thing as democratic reality? as democratic equality? are we all really equal under the eyes of the law. is that how it is, and is that how it should be? or is there a group of people who get around the country with an iron fist, if they're in the minority because the power belongs to them in some deeper sense? that latter proposition is what the republican party stands for right now. congressman jamie raskin it's a democrat of maryland, served as a lead manager in the seven impeachment on trump. he's also a member the january six committee, and he joins me now. congressman, good to see you. first, your reaction, i don't know if you had time to go through the hundred-page indictment issued fairly late last night. i know you've been traveling a bit, doing some campaigning in the like. but rio action to this indictment out of fulton county? >> it's a powerful devastating indictment. i think it is spare and focused as the indictment was at the federal level by the special counsel. this one is voluminous and detailed and evocative and kind of wordy. it tells much more closely the factual story that the january six committee was able to reconstruct. i was happy to see that ruby freeman and shaye moss made a central appearance in this indictment, because they were attacked and there was an attempt to coerce them, to intimidate them, to solicit their involvement in abandoning the legitimate democratic election and caving into this conspiracy, which was conducted by an interstate racketeering organization that was put together by donald trump to try to overthrow the election. so to me it was moving to me, this indictment. >> the knock that i have heard, that you heard lindsey graham right now, you heard him talk about liberal jurisdictions. there's a bit of, my point, bad faith, heads i win tails eyelids, which is that if a local prosecutor does it it's a local prosecution that's illiberal jurisdiction, if is the actual department of justice, it's the weaponized department. so they're both rendered illegitimate and their own way. but i'm curious, as a constitutional scholar, someone who sat in the first branch of government in this investigative special committee body that went through this, the importance of fulton county, the importance of federalism here, the legitimacy of a local prosecutor bringing this in a local court, to presented territorial folks from fulton county. >> it's a three card monty, as you suggest, chris. during the impeachment trial, trump was factually ethically morally responsible, but we can't try a former president, despite two centuries of precedent allowing impeachment trials for former officials to take place. but then they said try him in criminal court. well then, he is indicted in federal court and they say, you can't try him because there is -- interspersed with the conduct and now we have a state prosecution and the claim is, oh no, we want the protection of the federal government, the big champions of state law and state government and state courts. give me a break. they are fleeing as quickly as they can to get into the federalist society, passed federal judiciary to see if anyone will nullify this. but if you try to commit a fraud against the people of georgia in overturning the will of the people in that state in the presidential election, you have got to pay the piper and face the lions in georgia. >> this point about, this sort of running to the federalist society packed judiciary, you know, the courts held, largely, by and large, in 2020, in a way that was in some sense, and i will admit, somewhat surprising to me. pleasantly. so the facts were so terrible that you couldn't do anything but, i mean we're not talking about 500 votes in little places where there's like genuinely razor-thin margin. we're talking about tens of thousands of votes. but courts are going to have some say overall this in the end. and what is your expectation or your hope about with the courts will do here? >> i haven't had a chance yet to read the removal petition filed by mark meadows, who wants to flee into the federal courts and is afraid of a jury in georgia, but of course you get a balanced federal defense you can raise it in the state criminal pasts proceeding. you can appeal up to the supreme court. all the rules will lead. they're so the u.s. supreme court will be able to have it say if there some violation of federal law taking place. but right now the point is that there were dozens and dozens of crimes in georgia, state law violations, which are being prosecuted by the georgia prosecutors, and that, in itself, is a representation of american federalism. that is the states doing their job. it's an irony that the people who claim to be defending federalism, that fulton federalism suddenly want the shelter of the right-wing judges but they've put on to the federal judiciary. >> congressman jamie raskin, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> thanks for having, me chris. >> still to come, there are 18 defendants in the georgia case who are not named donald trump. so who are they? the first, how another disgraced ex president laid the groundwork for the trump prosecution. that's next. that's next. and the snack dad. all using chase to keep up with their finances. the coach helps save goals here, because she saved for soccer camp there. anddd check this out... the manager deposited a check. magic. and the snack dad? he's getting paid back. orange slicesss. because this team all has chase. smart bankers. convenient tools. one bank with the power of both. chase. make more of what's yours. i will be a travel influencer... hey, i thought you were on vacation? it's too expensive. use priceline, they've got deals no one else has. what about work? i got you. looking great you guys! ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline ♪ >> woman: why did we choose safelite? we were loading our suv when... crack! ♪ go to your happy price ♪ safelite came right to us, and we could see exactly when they'd arrive with a replacement we could trust. that's service the way we want it. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ choosing a treatment for your chronic migraine - 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more - can be overwhelming. so, ask your doctor about botox®. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start. it's the #1 prescribed branded chronic migraine treatment. so far, more than 5 million botox® treatments have been given to over eight hundred and fifty thousand chronic migraine patients. effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. don't receive botox® if there's a skin infection. tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. in a survey, 92% of current users said they wish they'd talked to their doctor and started botox® sooner. so, ask your doctor if botox® is right for you. learn how abbvie could help you save on botox®. every business that's why comcast business de is launching theal. mobile made free event. with our business internet, new and existing customers can get one year of unlimited mobile for free. it's our best internet. powered by the next generation 10g network and with 99.9% reliability. plus one line of free mobile for an entire year. it's the mobile made free event-happening now. get started for just $49.99 a month. plus, ask how to get one free line of unlimited mobile. >> richard nixon signed the comcast business, powering possibilities. racketeer influenced and corrupt organizations act for rico in 1970 in order to go after organized crime. he allowed the justice department to do so. it is been used for prosecuting mob bosses. it's also been used for prosecuting local street gangs as well as those committing financial fraud. and different states have their own versions of the federal, riggleman books. george's is notably wanted more sweeping versions. but rico prosecutions are different from any other kind of prosecution, clear to anyone who just started to read through the georgia indictment. this document, running 100 pages, is structured quite differently than the other indictments against donald trump and in a way that maybe a little counterintuitive. so if you are scratching your head about how this works, you're not alone. tanya mueller is a georgia state representative who served as an assistant district attorney in fulton county alongside fani willis. this is a deputy assistant attorney general and former u.s. attorney. he is now legal affairs columnist for the los angeles times. harry, i want to start with you with the general idea of rico isn't trident federal law and used by the department justice. and tanya, tell me a little about the georgia law. so starting generally, the federal recall, austin rico laws, what is the purpose, and i guess the question is, what makes them different cases? how are they structured? >> almost unique in criminal law so that the idea is to think about mafia operations that masqueraded legitimate businesses. think about the corleone olive oil family or tony soprano as a waste management consultant. but in fact just a criminal enterprise. that's the idea. and keeping that in mind as a metaphor is the best way to understand the charge. so it's as if the fani willis is saying the campaign was actually a criminal enterprise. think of it as a theft rig, but instead of stimulating, say, laugh laptops off the back of the track, it was trying to steal george's electoral votes. if you translate that into the statutory language, it does get vaporous and head-scratching, even for lawyers. i don't know if you want to move to that now or maybe talked to -- >> so pause that for second, i want to go to you, tanya, because the law in georgia is more capacious than the federal law we keep hearing about. it's been used quite a bit. it has been used by both fani willis is a prosecutor in her office. what is your experience with the georgia rico law? and my other question is, do juries go along with it as a general matter? >> i will tell you that the georgia rico statute is, as everyone has now picked up, thanks to madam d.a. fani willis, a very broad and powerful statute. it is like a freight train for the prosecution running through the courtroom, one of the most difficult cases to defend and here's why. you don't have to be an enterprise in the traditional sense of the word. you don't have to be a business. you don't have to be a corporation. it doesn't have to be all that organized. in georgia, the enterprise can be formed just like that. this indictment spans a few months, essentially. that is what makes it so powerful. in addition to the enterprise being so loose, there isn't the same need to show a continuity between the fronts. you have to make sure these crimes were all done in furtherance of a common purpose, to advance the purpose of the enterprise. in this purpose the purpose of the enterprises, loosely formed a group of trump supporters, was to keep donald trump in power, west to steal the georgia election. that's enough to get to indicted in georgia under our rico statute. all you have to show is that these individuals committed a series of crimes. they don't have to be a particular type of crime. in this case the crimes are, trying to interfere with an election. soliciting public fischel to not do their public duty. forgery and fraud. all of the sort of small crimes when you string them together and they're done in further years of a common purpose for an enterprise, rico will give you significant prison time in georgia. >> i want to ask a follow-up, and then come to you, harry. i want to talk about the constitutionality of this. there are these two categories of crimes. there are these predicate crimes and then there are over acts. the idea is that over acts can be things that independent of the conspiracy were independent of the enterprise or perfectly legal are fine. i tweeted something or even went on tv and said this person stolen election. you can do that. it's covered by the first amendment. you might face to civil suit for defamation, but it's not criminal. those are the over acts. the predicate crimes are actual court crimes. here's my question. i think i know the answer but does everyone in the 19 people have to have committed a predicate crime to be included in the conspiracy? or can be the casey only took part in over acts as part of the enterprise and are still trying convicted under the record statute? >> it depends on how it's played. the unique thing about this particular indictment is that everyone in this indictment is charged with also committing a predicate act. so you really don't have to answer that question. but if you indict the rico as a weaker conspiracy, if there's a conspiracy, it may not have ever actually come completed the crime. we just took substantial stepped forward or over acts in furtherance of committing that conspiracy without actually completing it. it's very broad. >> so harry, you're right about this in the la times. the rico law permitted willis to pack a georgia indictment with much of trump's nationwide schemes to steal the election. if that sounds amorphous because it is, as regrows critics have long argued. i do want to just sort of, i mean, this is neither here nor there insofar as on trump's already facing federal charges for this the don't implicate rico at all. but in this case, there is some part of me, is this constitutional? doing a little bit of research on scotus, it does seem like maybe it attenuate some of the constitutional protections that one would want. it may be at the edges criminalizes membership in an organization. it does seem that there might be some things that are constitutionally daisy. >> and a lot of people have had at squeamishness. but that has been adjudicated in fountain be fine, whether or not it's for mafia. but when you burrow down a little bit georgia law. i was also interested to jurors balk at these charges in georgia because they do seem kind of vaporous. the short answer seems to be now. they find them just fine. in terms of the law, stick with me, it's not that complicated, but it's pretty open-ended. what the charge here is, is that they conspired so the agreed to do something unlawful and commit an overt act, one of those hundred and 61. what was the unlawful thing? violate rico. what does that mean to violate rico? it means to have a criminal enterprise and really important, one of the two ways in which georgia is much much more liberal, you don't have to prove the criminal enterprise, just sort of allege it, and you try to further or maintain it. so trump tried to maintain this enterprise of stealing the votes, through a pattern of racketeering activity, which sounds pretty cohesive. to prove it you have to prove to disparate acts of illicit in the statute, and that's the other way. georgia has many more that are listed. so in essence, she says is a criminal enterprise, proof beyond reasonable doubt to have these predicate acts, off to the races on rico and juries seem to buy it. >> it does seem a little like you're playing against the casinos odds. tanya miller and harry lippman, thank you very much. >> thanks chris. >> up next, 19 codefendants have ten days to turn themselves in. but one of them tonight is asking for a change of venue. e of venue m 65. and really smart later i'm 70-ish. consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. with this type of plan, you'll know upfront about how much your care costs. which makes planning your financial future easier. so call unitedhealthcare today to learn more about the only plans of their kind with the aarp name. and set yourself and your future self up with an aarp medicare supplement plan from unitedhealthcare. 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served as fake electors, and then some trump campaign folks, but many of them are familiar faces who, as the indictment alleges, were furthering the charge of criminal conspiracy out in the open, day after day, and even often on camera, like rudy giuliani, facing 13 counts. he led a team of lawyers that included sydney powell, tied with seven counts, and jenna ellis, charged with two counts. they spent later months of 2020 telling anyone who would listen about the friday claimed occurred. >> the dominion voting systems, the smartmatic technology software and the software that goes in other computerized voting systems here as well, not just dominion, were created in venezuela at the direction of hugo chavez to make sure he never lost an election after one constitutional referendum came out the way he didn't want it to come out. we have one very moran witness who has explained how it all works. he is affidavit is attached to pleadings of land would in the lawsuit he filed in georgia. >> to be clear, that's false, nonsense. as the indictment says, they took those false claims directly to georgia in december where they pressured state lawmakers to undo the will of the people. >> you secretary of state office last night and today said this was the cleanest election in the history, or the purist election in history. he must be living on some other planet or drinking something that affects his senses. it's just the opposite. this is probably the worst situation a voter fraud we have ever had in this country. >> another lawyer, john eastman, author of the infamous school memo, faces nine counts, in part for his role in another hearing trying to wear down georgia state legislators. >> the failure of state election officials to follow the manner you had sat out in statutes, in conducting this election, as well as the intermingling of the illegal and legal ballots in significant enough numbers that the election can't be violently certified, quite simply means that the state has failed to make a choice on election day, in accordance with the manager manner you prescribed. >> trump's chief of staff mark meadows faces two counts in his role for his role in the phone call trump had with brad raffensperger asking him to find votes. >> what i am hopeful for is, is there some way that we can, we can find some kind of an agreement to look at this a little more fully? the president mentioned fulton county. mister secretary, i can tell you, was only two dead people that would vote, and i promise you there were more than that and that maybe what your investigation shows but i can promise you there were more than that. >> two days after that, call a woman made named trevian kutti, who previously worked as a publicist for kanye west, tried to threatened ruby freeman into falsely confessed saying of course totally untrue, they even method police station and freeman's request because freeman at that point was scared for her life. you can tell how he tries to pressure freeman in this body cam video captured by a police officer in the room to ensure freeman's safety. >> i cannot say what specifically will take place. i just know that it will disrupt your freedom. and the freedom of one or more of your family members. you are a loose and for a party that needs to tidy up. what a loose and, that is really why i'm here. >> she was charged with two counts of harassment, and there's extra oj official jeffrey clark. the most memorable footage of him is his footage of law enforcement doing assertive is normally stand outside's boxer shorts. well it wasn't on camera, he did put it in writing, addressed to georgia state officials and ready for the acting attorney signature to nature, falsely claiming the department of justice was investigating various irregularities and the 2020 election and that it had identified concerns including the state of georgia. the conspiracy that fulton county district attorney fani willis involves a lot of players. fortunately i 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voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ >> i am giving the defendants the opportunity to voluntarily surrender, no later than noon on friday, the 25th day of august, 2023. >> yesterday, district attorney fani willis said all 19 defendants charged with racketeering in georgia have until next friday to appear voluntarily in court in fulton county, rather than face arrest. one of those defendants, mark meadows, is already asking the court to move his case to federal court. today, lawyers for meadows filed the case should be in federal court because, quote, the conduct giving rise to the charges in the indictment all occurred during his tenure, and as part of his service has chief of staff to donald trump. meadows is the first of the 19 defendants charged in -- challenge to the case. but i think we can safely say he will not be the last. anna bower is a correspondent for lawfare, who has been covering the fulton county investigation. she watched it all unfold at the courthouse yesterday and she joins me now. anna, first of all, i've been following your coverage. it's been super useful. so, thank you for that. second of all, what do you make of the meadows file? >> thanks for having, me chris. so, i make of the meadows filing that it is very much expected. we anticipated that many of these defendants would make their first move -- a move to federal court. there is a statute that allows federal officials, or former federal officials, to seek to remove state criminal cases to federal court. many of them will likely seek to do that, whether because they want to delay proceedings, or because they think they will have a friendlier jury pool their. in terms of what i think about meadows filing, it's kind of something that i have talked to a lot of attorneys in georgia about. and it is something that i have thought a lot about in terms of doing my own research. and i really think he actually does have a pretty good chance of removing the case to federal court. it is a very low standard. all that you have to really show is that you are a federal official who is doing something related to your federal duties. he kind of says that he was making phone calls as chief of staff, and he was setting up meetings. and i think that, because it is a quite low standard, you just have to make a plausible claim. meadows probably does have a pretty good chance at removing it to federal court. there seems to be some agreement amongst legal scholars and attorneys in georgia that he will have a pretty good chance of it as well, especially considering that the 11th circuit has interpreted the federal removal statute quite liberally. >> yeah. let me read from the filing of his lawyer saying, nothing mr. meadows is alleged to have done in the indictment's criminal per se. original oval office meeting, contacting state officials on the presidents behalf, visited state government building, setting up a phone call for the president. when unexpected president chief of staff to the president of the united states to do these things. -- although, we should know, that the allegation in the rico charges that one of the things he did was illegal per se, which is the solicitation of this violation of an oath of a public officer. that says that donald j trump and mark randall meadows, with the offense or are charged with the solicitation of oath by a public officer, in that call with brad raffensperger. should it be removed to federal court, though? and here is where i get a little wonky on the law. it still gets tried under georgia law, right? it's not that the sort of venue of jurisprudence changes, but the jurisdiction -- the state laws -- all the stuff that is the undergirding law is still georgia state law. >> that is correct. it still is georgia state law charges. fani willis and her team will still prosecute the case. the only difference is that they will prosecute the case a few blocks down the road at the federal courthouse in the northern district of georgia in federal court. federal procedural rules will largely apply. and a federal judge will preside over the case. the defendants who are able to remove will also have a federal jury pool. so, that is the difference. but it doesn't mean that the charges are any different, or that the prosecutorial team is any different. it won't be federal prosecutors. it will still be state prosecutors. and, importantly, if trump or any other future president will still not be able to pardon trump under a federal pardon because, again, these are still state charges if he is convicted or if others are convicted. >> right. that's really key point i just want to reiterate that. should meadows be convicted, even after a successful removal to federal court, it is still a georgia offense. it still can't be pardoned by whichever president would come later. anna bower, who has been doing fantastic we're covering this for lawfare, thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you. >> still ahead -- the republican 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i'm just visiting. u.s. bank. ranked #1 in customer satisfaction with retail banking in california by j.d. power. >> as far as we know -- david: as we start a new school year, there's something new happening in california's public schools. they're called community schools. leslie: it really is shared leadership with families, students, educators, and communities. jessie: i feel like we're really valued as partners. david: it's a more innovative, holistic approach. grant: in addition to academic services, we look at serving the whole family. narrator: wellness centers, food pantries, and parental education. jessie: they're already making a difference. david: california's community schools: reimagining public education. and i say that advisedly -- the front runner for the republican nomination is not facing any more indictments. that means donald trump has now been indicted four times in four separate jurisdictions by three different prosecutors, all in the past four months. with just over a year until the 2024 presidential election, there is now a weird kind of criminal trial traffic jam. we are faced with the question, how is all of this going to work? which trial goes first, in what order to the rest? go and who makes the decision? shanlon wu is a former federal prosecutor who served as a prosecutor to former attorney general janet reno -- kristy greenberg he's also a -- district of new york. kristy greenberg, i guess i will start with you on the basic question. for trials, he saw fani willis last night saying within six months. obviously, criminal trials, unlike civil trials, the defendant has to be there all the time. so, there is just a basic problem, which is that there is only one donald trump. and he can't be into places that once. so, how do you see this unfold? >> well, we are going to see the judges in these different cases privately conferring about schedules. but i still maintain that the january 6th trial that jack smith is bringing in d.c. -- that trial will go first. it is the most streamlined, because you have got one defendant versus 19. but it is a case of public interest, both that and georgia case. are you have the former president and the current presidential candidate being charged with seeking to overturn the results of an election. there is an intense public interest there. but one is a streamlined case. and one has 19 defendants. you also have the situation where the federal case can go away, if it is delayed. if donald trump or any republican takes office, there could be a pardon. and they could just have the a.g. drop it. that is not the case with georgia. donald trump cannot pardon himself in the georgia case. there is a bipartisan board of pardons and parole that looks at those kinds of things. and the only way that you can even apply -- that you can first apply -- for that kind of pardon is five years after the sentences completed. so, given all of that, i really do see that jack smith's case will go first, and i think it will be in that first half of 2024. i think his date of january 2024 is a bit ambitious, but probably maybe two months after that starting in and around march or so. >> shanlon, what do you think? >> i agree. i think it should be the one to go first. it does depend a lot as to whether the prosecutors would confer a lot. and it -- makes it so unusual to have one defendant facing this many trials from this many prosecutors, all the same time. sometimes, you will see a defendant -- there is a hung jury -- they get re-tried a bunch of times. normally, if you have this kind of a contemporary's contemporaneous state and federal parallel prosecution going on, they might be conferring -- share some information, for example. that doesn't seem to be happening here. there is no requirement that it happens. and there is a flipside, of course, to the state case going later, because we're trump to be elected president, that would put that on stall. and it could be stalled literally for years, at that point. so, there is a downside to that too. but i think we don't really know how they would coordinate. when i was a sub prosecutor in superior court -- if this is on a daily basis, multiple trials are -- depends on who is, ready whose calendar works for it. and this is a version of that. but obviously, much more complex cases, you'll know very far in advance who is ready for trial. >> yeah, the public interest part of it, obviously, from where i sit, seems the most compelling. you want to give due process. you also -- there is logistical concerns. you also want to make sure, crucially, the defense can mount a real defense, that they are afforded their constitutional rights for that. so, all of that matters a lot. but this sort of overriding public input -- and here is just a little bit of the timeline -- we have got the august 23, we've got the first gop to be, and two days later, the surrender deadline in fulton county, presumably, they will probably do that earlier then, the second gop debate, then a civil fraud loose ott lawsuit that starts in october -- on the second. you've got the iowa caucus. also, another e. jean carroll civil defamation suit. there's another class action suit on super tuesday. and then you have got in the spring, that hush money trial, which is the proposed date for the trial there. the proposed classified documents trial the rnc, and election day. so, obviously, these two things are happening on the same timeline, because we only live in one version of the universe. but it also seems to, me kristy, that, like, it's obviously in everyone's interest -- again, i've said this before. but i wonder how much the legal system and judges will recognize it. it is in everyone's interest for this to be as speedy as is practicable. >> absolutely. and i am sure the judges are going to be considering that. because, as part of the speedy trial calculation that the judges in the federal system are going to have to make, as well as the state system, they are needing to look at the public interest. and i think you are really going to see jack smith pushing for his trial to go first. because he is also not necessarily going to want to be tainted by whatever could happen in some of these other cases. in his january 6th case, he has got a strong judge, who is looking to move things along. he has a favorable jury pool. and he has got a really compelling case. the classified documents case, that has more challenges. you have a jury pool that is not as favorable. and a judge where, you know, she is somewhat unpredictable. and then the manhattan hush money case -- that is the one donald trump is going to want to go first. because that is the one that he is going to have the easiest time of arguing, hey, this is before i was even president. this is just election interference. >> right. >> you have issues with challenges, both evidentiary and legal challenges. and of jack smith is not going to want to have a jury pool tainted by what could be a challenging case that maybe doesn't get a conviction. >> shanlon, how confident are you -- scale of 1 to 100 -- as i want to work in the department of justice, that one of these trials, particular the jan sixth, jack smith trial happened will happen in the first six months of 2024? >> with 100 being i'm certain it will happen i am -- around the 20 -- >> -- from >> so many trial dates -- >> you think delay is as likely as anything? >> yeah. i think delay is very common to begin with. and then, when you have the defense team really focusing on it, and they have a bunch of legitimate reasons for a delay, that caliber you just pointed out is a crazy bunch of delays coming up. >> yeah. >> for real reasons -- i think it's pretty easy for the base to slip. shanlon wu, kristy greenberg, thank you both. that is "all in" on this tuesday night. "alex wagner tonight" starts right now. good, evening alex. >> i feelle all our conversatios with these legal experts is the same. in-depth analysis, and then, also, when is it going to happen? -- is it going to happen before the election? >> wait. don't you think also here -- can i say something? i think the fact that we need to make a television show every night gives us a weird perspective on this. what is everyoneti