friend, ana cabrera. right now prosecutors have given the ex-president and his codefendants until next friday to surrender. >> 19 men and women charged with 41 counts in a sweeping 98-page indictment accusing them of trying to overturn georgia's 2020 election results, and accusing them of violating georgia's riccio act, something reserved for gangs and mobsters. it could be the televised trial of the century. >> if convicted, this could be the only case that trump's indictment so far he could not pardon himself for if he takes back the white house. we have a jam-packed hour filled with reporters and legal analysts, and it starts right now. ♪ let's get right to our reporters on the ground in atlanta. msnbc news correspondent, blayne alexander, and garrett haake, and senior legal correspondent, laura jarrett here with us in new york. you have been so closely following this investigation. what unanswered questions are you still looking into? >> reporter: well, josé, we are looking towards what happens next. you talked about the sentencing. we are officially on the 10-day kind of countdown for the 19 individuals to, under whatever terms, come down to atlanta and turn themselves in. what will the terms of surrender look like? i reached out to a couple of my sources, and those conversations are under way, essentially about what will it looks like, will they be fingerprinted and will there be mugshots? that's one thing that we are watching. we do know that the posture of the d.a. gerri willis and even the posture of the sheriff of the county has been that they don't want to treat any other defendant, however high profile they may be, any differently than they would treat any other citizen in fulton county. that's been their stance all along, but the judge will weigh in on what happens. the attorneys for the defendants will weigh in on what happens and there will be negotiations on what the surrender looks like. in the hours since this indictment was handed up, we are now hearing reaction from some people around georgia, but people who were central to this investigation, and chief among them, chief secretary of state ratheren burg tkpwur. basically he says the most basic principles of a strong democracy are accountability and respect for the constitution and rule of law. you either have it or you don't. a couple things stood out to me there and i think you will notice it as well, and he doesn't mention donald trump by name or the indictments and it's a generic statement that could be issued on any given day. sources in his office tell me they are eager to move past this, and they are tired of being attacked by and talking about the former president, and for him guys it's likely he won't turn the page very soon because it's probable he will be called as a witness when this eventually goes to trial. >> laura, there are so many defendants in the case, and it falls under the violations of the rico act. plainly speaking, what is rico in georgia? >> it's a fancy name for a pattern of unlawful activity, and you need two or more underlying unlawful acts. georgia, unlike the federal system has a long litany or laundry list, if you will, of what those acts could be, and if you have two or more of those you can have a case. the indictment here includes a lot of stuff that doesn't even look like a crime. it has his tweets. you would wonder, why is that in there? the idea is to fill out the picture of what exactly this alleged conspiracy was for. it has all of these, what it calls, overt acts to fill out the picture of all the steps that were taken, but it doesn't have to be a crime. the tweet itself doesn't have to be a crime. >> that's what she called in the indictment a series of overt acts. what legal weight do overt acts carry, and there needs to be two or more to fall under rico, but how much weight does an overt act? >> it's required, and you need at least one overt act, and that's to prove the conspiracy. you have to have a meeting of the minds and people have to take action to show an intent to carry out, and in this case it's the intent to overturn the election. >> it's not just what he's saying, it's what these alleged, you know, co conspirators are doing, right? >> that will be an important point. we have heard his defense and all his words and the lies, and the defense his team has been using, the first amendment defense and it's not about conduct. >> trump is repeating the false claims that the 2020 election was stolen, and what more do we know about what he's trying to do? >> reporter: trump never changed his tune in public that he believes the election was stolen, and he wants to argue it in the future, and his lawyers suggested arguing that is something in the case they are litigating in washington, d.c., and you see trump injecting this belief into the case here in georgia. as to the specifics of what he will present on monday, i don't have any for you. it's hard to imagine what could be in a report to do anything that he describes that could exonerate him. one, it's another opportunity to rally his political base, to raise money, to get folks to dig in and defend him whether they agree with him or not, the republican party, and, two, it is that he truly believed the election was stolen and it was not a lie he was peddling to stay in power or try to raise money, and the more he is consistent on that a lot of folks believe it will prove it was not a scheme but something he believed when some of the acts that were taking place that are now considered to be illegal. >> last night we heard they were looking at the six month period before the process could get under way. on what you know about the fulton county court, how long do you think it will be? >> it will take a long time. gerri willis is trying a rico case right now, and they are still in the process of seating a jury and those indictments were handed up early last year, so if that gives you any indication of how slowly this could possibly turn, you know, of course a number of different circumstances there, but, you know, i will use the words of chuck rosenberg, this is a clunky case where you talk about you have 19 defendants, and that's 19 different sets of attorneys, and 19 opening statements, and 19 sets of cross examinations if they are all to go to trial, that's something that could certainly take a long time. it will take a long time to get there and play out once the trial gets there, guys. >> we know trump is often trying to delay, delay, delay. does he have ways he could try and muck this up even more? >> certainly as blayne pointed out, you have 19 different defendants and 18 people who have opportunities to delay, and it's their right for pretrial motions and due process rights here, too. it's worth pointing out, she said six months until trial and maybe that was in the heat of the moment last night, and i don't think there's any chance in the world that will hold here. in a complex case like this, in past cases, they have not gone to trial nearly that fast. >> when you read it, what were some of the things that stuck out to you? >> that you have people here who are unindicted coconspirators in the room and in law office meetings clearly providing some level of material information, and it's unclear whether they are cooperating in a more formal way and so to speak, flipped, and there's a serious amount of pressure on these 18 people to cooperate now. they are facing serious time if convicted, potentially five to 20 years, or lesser than that and it's up to the judge to have discretion there. and that's a lot of time for people who are not loyal to trump like walt nauta. >> garrett, do we know how those in trump's circle feel about the prospect of cameras being in the courtroom this time? >> reporter: look, some of this may depend on the timing aspect you were all just describing. if this was to go to trial before the election they could make an argument cameras would not be a bad thing. trump has made his view the election was stolen a part of his campaign, and if he's in the courtroom and can't be on the campaign because he's tied down with all these legal issues, that's probably good to have it, and if he were to win the election, it's a massive headache, and if he was a twice-defeated former president and then we are degrees off the line here of what would be useful to him or not. elevating this issue, this question of whether or not the election was stolen is at the heart of trump campaign, and anything about that is net positive, at least in his view. >> thank you so much for being with us this morning. >> thank you, guys. joining us now with more is a former district attorney in dekalb county, and it's great to see you again. you and i spoke yesterday in preparation and anticipation of this indictment. what is your reaction to what we now know about the shear number of charges and the number of people charged? have you seen anything like this in your career? >> yes and no. obviously rico cases are ones that are more complex, and they very often include a lot of details so the district attorney is able to layout the story for the jury to be able to establish the underlying predicate acts that is required by the statute. you will have other charges and you see several whether it's false swearing and false statements and some of the election code violations, so perjury is one that i think certainly when we were writing the brookings report we did not have knowledge of, and that all came as a result of witnesses being sworn or giving false statements under oath. in a lot of ways it's very similar to the rico types of cases we have seen before, and that this district attorney has had before. obviously the named defendants make this case somewhat unusual, but that does not mean that the d.a. or the judge or the sheriff or anybody else involved should deviate course. this is still a fact -- a case about the facts and the law, and the law is nonpartisan and it allows for the d.a. to investigate and hold people accountable for any wrong doing that she thinks she has sufficient evidence to prove. >> let's talk about whether there are unusual aspects in another issue, for example, on page 15, the indictment points out, quote, the enterprise operated in fulton county georgia, elsewhere in the state of florida and in other states including but not limited to arizona, michigan, nevada, new mexico, pennsylvania and wisconsin and the district of columbia. is that unusual? what do you make of the d.a. touching on criminal conspiracies in other states? >> again, georgia rico statute is favorable to prosecutors, and it allows the d.a. to reach crimes or acts that occurred outside his or her jurisdiction, so that allows this d.a. to read some of the computer trespass allegations from coffee county in georgia, and it also allows her to reference some of the fake elector schemes that happened in other states so the ultimate jurors, whoever will decide the evidence in this matter will be able to have an appreciation for just how large this particular rico indictment or these conspiratorial activities reached across the country. >> so the d.a. says she's intending to try all 19 codefendants together. we were touching on this with our other segment, and that could mean it takes longer to get through a trial. what do you think is the strategy that she's trying to have here and how this could really play out? >> sure. again, rico allows the prosecutor to tell the story, and while we have a 98-page document, we have 41 counts and 19 defendants, and any good prosecutor could narrow this down to a few things. you have got those charges that relate to the solicitation of public officials to get them to do something to violate their oath of office. you have the facts surrounding the fake elector schemes, and that went into the various emails and things that support that. you have the computer trespass and the taking of personal information charges that happened in coffee county, and while having the indictment and it seems to be complex, any good prosecutor could narrow this down to common themes that a jury could understand and see how the pieces of the puzzle fit together to be able to establish the bigger picture of this overall rico indictment and conspiracy. >> how do you see the next ten days going? >> so it's going to be interesting. the d.a. has given all defendants until august 25th to be able to turn themselves in. i can imagine there's a lot of discussions and things and calls into the d.a.'s office now, possibly from individuals that are looking to make arrangements to turn themselves in or talking about plea deals, and that may be a little early until some of the defense counsel see the time of evidence through discovery the district attorney has, and there will be a lot to watch for. we have 19 individuals that will make tough decisions over the next ten days. >> thank you so much. we appreciate your insights. up next, the politics of the indictment. one republican who testified before the grand jury yesterday says, quote, this is a pivot point for the party, but is it? >> plus, one of trump's codefendants in another criminal case just went before a judge in florida. we're back in 60 seconds. you're watching special coverage of trump's fourth indictment right here on msnbc. . despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. and, they felt dramatic and fast itch relief some as early as 2 days. that's rinvoq relief. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal, cancers including lymphoma and skin cancer, death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq, as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. disrupt the itch and rash of eczema. talk to your doctor about rinvoq. learn how abbvie can help you save. 18 past the hour. with just eight days to go until the first republican presidential debate, former president trump's fourth indictment is set to take center stage. >> former lieutenant governor, jeff duncan, said he hopes this investigation will be a pivot point for the country. >> my hope is that americans believe us that this election was fair and legal and i think it's a pivot point for us. >> joining us, former press secretary for john boehner, and an msnbc political news analyst. could this be a pivot point, do you think? >> it might be in places like georgia where the outcome of the electoral college there is really important. i don't see it dramatically changing trump's fortune in the primary. look, this is obviously the fourth time, and there are a lot of republican voters who made up their mind that this is all a scam, they are all out to get donald trump and it's politically motivated. if you were going to be moved by trump's actions around january 6th, in overturning the election, you probably already made your decision about that. it's not that this is not important. georgia is a critical state for the 2024 election and it would be hard for any republican, especially trump, to win without carrying georgia. it's a state that has not been very kind to him. they are showing a lot of fatigue. and the lieutenant governor is typical of republican voters in the state, and they are sick of him and want to move on and this venue is a perfect place to tell that story. >> vaughn, loyalty has been a running theme in trump's circle, and as long as we have covered him, during his presidency, post presidency, and now there are serious consequences for people who have been loyal to him all along. do you see loyalty breaking now? >> right, donald trump has typically remained loyal to those that showed loyalty to him, despite of whatever flaws they may exhibit. this time is different because there are criminal proceedings in their headlights here, and for donald trump you have 18 other defendants that will be codefendants, and there's the reality that some of those individuals could very well flip and work with prosecutors to undermine his own legal defense. that's why i asked donald trump this question specifically over the weekend when i was with him in iowa. i asked him if he defended and stood by the actions of his allies in georgia after the 2020 election. his response was interesting. he said many of the allies -- i don't know, because to be honest, we have so many allies so i don't know what you are talking about, we have a lot of allies that i don't know but they are allies nonetheless and i can't speak to that. that was an interesting response, because donald trump right there made the decision to separate himself from the other codefendants. he made it clear he will not enter a plea agreement here and will defend himself to the end and he has taken the position of i don't know these people and they acted on their own accords, and don't blame me for their actions. when you look at the racketeering actions, it is clear donald trump will choose to make that defense. >> jake, let's talk about capitol hill for a minute. this is what senator lindsay graham said on fox news just last night. >> are we going to let county prosecutors start prosecuting the former president of the united states? >> is this the republican line on the hill going forward on this? >> probably, but lindsay graham is not emblematic of anybody but lindsay graham, and of course prosecutors should not be barred from prosecuting anybody. i don't any anybody in their right mind would suggest that. but if senate republicans, if they lose seats perhaps their tone will change. i think you hear more and more now from republicans on capitol hill that we need to get back to winning, and that's something we hear more and more of. on top of that as we head into september, republicans will be asked about four indictments, trump's four indictments and then they will probably shutdown the government. if you are looking at the bright side here for the gop, the elect the gop officials, i don't really see one coming up when their standard barrier is being prosecuted in four different jurisdictions, and they face a legislative brass, which i am sure we will talk more about next month, is that quite staggering and stunning and very difficult to get out of. >> we keep hearing from trump to his allies to investigate the investigators. jake, do you suspect the gop will try to investigate the fulton county's indictment here? can they? >> yeah, i think brendan would agree with me, jim jordan will almost certainly investigate the fulton county d.a., and he is trying to investigate the special counsel in the hunter biden charges. yes, this house republican conference, more than anybody else, has trump's back time and time again, and even when it's politically difficult to do so. yes, that will be what they spend the next 15 months or so leading up to the election. >> if they do spend the next 15 months or so on that, some continue talking about an impeachment inquiry into president biden, and will this be enough of a distraction to distract people away from trump's trials? >> well, they realize trump is likely going to be their nominee. they are stuck. even the jim jordan's of the world don't want to defend the substance of what we have seen, and when you don't want to defend the facts, you talk about the process and how it's politically motivated, or you talk about hunter biden. it's hard to separate donald trump's legal challenges with what republicans on the hill are doing around hunter biden, and they want to muddy up the situation and have people throw their hands up and say they are all crooks, and whether or not that will work, i don't know. it can be damaging. what happened in the january 6th committee hearings was damaging for donald trump. we will have to see if that translates in the places that will ultimately determine the outcome of the election. >> thank you, gentlemen. up next here on msnbc, from america's mayor to codefendant. who rudy giuliani claims are the real defendants. dants. 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>> i don't know that 18 of them are all people that you are going to flip. for example, giuliani is defiant and has exposure in the federal case, and i don't see is a solution for him, and there are people who are not likely to be charged in a federal indictment and people who will have information to provide about their connections with higher-ups in the donald trump campaign. there are people who tried to visit a woman and her daughter and admit to committing election fraud, and who was part of that? they have information they can provide and their exposure might be lower than others, and they don't face federal exposure to the best of our knowledge, and they would be the right candidates. >> there would be 30 unnamed co conspirators, are they already cooperating? >> yes and no. they are fake electors, and they could be trump campaign staffers in georgia. if you link up their written communications as quoted in the indictment with the things that have been written at them, you can guess at their identity and some of those people have gone on record and said i no longer believe in the cause, and those people are ripe for flipping. >> mark meadows is not named as an unindicted co conspiracy in the federal indictment, but he is named in other places there, and he's charged here in connection with what appears in the federal indictment. the only thing i can gather is he and his team didn't appreciate the criminal exposure he had in georgia and maybe was willing to roll the dice there. on the other happened it remains to be seen whether he is or is not a cooperator in the federal case. many of us feel he is because he's not named as a unindicted coconspirator. >> we just got a statement from one of the coconspirators -- alleged co conspirators in the indictment, he's a former trump lawyer. he says this is from his lawyer, a constitutional lawyer with experience in election law was asked by the trump campaign to provide information about the election law. he did not once step foot in the state in georgia and was not privy to the private communications of other individuals cited in the indictment. he stands ready to defend himself against these unfounded charges. what he's saying is why am i looped in. what i would say to you in response. that's not true, he may not have stepped in georgia but he communicated with people in georgia, and he was not only the legal mastermind but came up with the draft documents, and he sent people paper like here's what you have to do, and so for him to deny any culpability, that falls flat with me, ana. >> just as a broader question, the d.a. is giving everybody until next friday, so ten days. is that normal? in a case, do you get ten days? >> not always. sometimes, you know, in the federal system for example the fbi just shows up at your door. in other times in cases like this that are more equivalent to white collar cases, there's a dance about when the defendant will surrender and be processed and arraigned. what is unusual is there could be time between their surrender and arraignment. it's probably likely we will see a series of arraignments go down as opposed to all 19 of them in the same courtroom at a time and date to be determined. >> i think that's important to set the expectations for our viewers. obviously we have been following the federal cases, and then, of course, it's different than what happens here in new york with the case we have been following from the manhattan district attorney's office. a lot for us to keep on top of. thank you for helping us. >> i try. >> thank you. up next, an update in another case involving trump? >> the property manager of trump's estate is facing a judge this morning. you are watching special coverage of trump's fourth indictment on msnbc. he's cocky for a nineteen year old. a man, his tractor and his family. these are the upshaws. though, he goes by shaw. which stands for skilled hands at work. from cutting hair, and mowing grass, to roasting marshmallows, he's got a grasp on what matters most. there's a story in every piece of land, run with us on a john deere tractor and start telling yours. get $1,000 off a 1025r tractor and 0% apr fixed rate for 60 months. this isn't charmin! no wonder i don't feel as clean. here's charmin ultra strong. ahhh! my bottom's been saved! with its diamond weave texture, charmin ultra strong cleans better with fewer sheets and less effort. enjoy the go with charmin. with your hearing, if you start having a little trouble, you're concerned that it's going to cost you money. to this day i only paid what i had to pay for the device... when i go back everything is covered. there's so much you're missing by not having hearing aids. we'll find you a hearing aid that fits your lifestyle and budget at one of our over fifteen hundred locations. call miracle ear at 1-800-miracle and schedule your free, no obligation hearing evaluation today. david: i'm david goldberg, a bilingual elementary school teacher and president of the california teachers association. as we start a new school year, there's something new happening in california's public schools. jessie: they're called community schools. david: where parents and families, students and educators are making decisions as one. damien: it's a real sense of community. leslie: we saw double-digit gains in math, in english, and reading scores. david: it's an innovation that's transforming our public schools. narrator: california's community schools: reimagining public education. 41 past the hour. we are following more breaking news, this time concerning the special counsel's federal classified documents case. last hour trump's codefendant and property manager at his resort entered a guilty plea at a federal courthouse in florida. >> ken dilanian is joining us now. what did we learn today? >> the third time was a charm. he had not been able to find a local attorney, which is why he had not been able to enter a plea. this is a third appearance in this case, and he entered the not guilty plea in an otherwise proforma hearing. the real drama surrounding the property manager at mar-a-lago, the low-level employee, and his attorneys we believe is being paid for through the trump super pac, and he could be a key witness based on the superseding indictment which alleges he had key conversations with donald trump. remember what this is about. donald trump and these two men are accused of conspiring to destroy evidence, surveillance tapes that was under grand jury subpoena. a serious obstruction of justice element to this case. that's what is on the table for him. as of now he's standing strong with the trump defense team. remember this case, the classified documents case is, as of now, scheduled to go to trial in may in what promises to be an incredibly busy year for donald trump and the legal system, and we have got potentially a january trial, a march trial and may trial of next year. >> of course we don't have a date yet for the most recent indictment in terms of a trial. up next, at one time a u.s. president facing criminal charges was unthinkable, but now four indictments involving donald trump. do americans care? 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[voice vibrating] 47 past the hour. for the fourth time in four months president trump is facing a criminal indictment, and the novelty of the former leader of the united states being called a felon has somehow worn off, not that the sweeping 98-page indictment in georgia accusing him of trying to reverse the state's 2020 election results was less momentous. >> with us to talk about this is a professor at princeton university and an msnbc political analyst. eddie, is this a novelty that has somehow worn off? >> i hope not. i pray that's not the case. obviously people are consuming news like entertainment and that spectacle has overrun much of the process in the country, but the stakes are so high. we can't just read these court cases as kind of dramatic moments in the news cycle, and our democracy is at stake, and the folks tuning out, they are indifference will seal the fate of the policy, it seems to me. >> you know, i think of other countries where something like this has happened and it has happened in brazil and in france. there has been all kinds of turmoil politically, but this is the first time in our country that we have seen this. do you think this is just something that maybe on the fourth time in the georgia case it feels any different? >> well, i am not sure yet. as you rightly say, it's unprecedented. we have experiences crisis as a nation before and that's to say how might we respond to this moment where it seems as if the nation stands on a knife's edge, and i am thinking particularly in the decade of the year of th legitimacy of the country. the question about the rule of law. a question really that in some ways justice matters for some people, and it doesn't apply to others. the fundamental question about who we are as a democracy are at stake here. so it may feel -- it is different, but there's some historical precedent for it. will we rise to the occasion? are we the people to defend our democracy that is needed? >> what are your thoughts about how to do that? i think about all these different information avenues people have to choose from right now. they can stay in their echo chamber, and they can ultimately find a site or source that is going to tell them what they want to hear. they don't necessarily know all of the facts, nor do they believe necessarily the facts. i think what we hear from voters who -- some of our colleagues interview on the campaign trail -- many of these trump supporters shows up to his events, they believe every word he is saying. they believe that is the truth. how do you break through to ensure that the system stays together, that these fundamental, foundational elements of the democracy aren't broken? >> well, it seems to me that we have to double down on the truth. we have to stop coddling those who refuse to believe the facts. we have to stop trying to both sides this issue. we need to understand the existential threat that faces our democracy, and we need to speak the truth. this is not about a strategy looking for conviction. this is a about looking for the truth in order to secure conviction. we need to be very, very clear about the stakes. what i mean by that is you have those who made their minds up. then we always have that middle, that middle, those folk who somehow just want to raise their kids and go to work and do what they need to do. those people have to hear the truth day in and day out. they're going to have to make a choice. >> i was listening to you talk about the similarities with the 1850s, 1830s, democracy in america. what is it, do you think, that must remain strong in our society so that that democratic experiment that is the united states can continue to grow? >> you know, that's such a wonderful question. we have to start telling ourselves the truth. we are lying about the role of money in our politics. we are lying to ourselves about the depth of the hatred and grievance that defines our way of being together. we are not telling ourselves a thick enough story about what eroded our sense of relation to each other. we are not clear about the values that define who we are. instead, we are selfish, self-interested, in competition and rivalry with each other. the very fabric of the country has frayed. part of what we have to do is tell ourselves the truth so that we can become the kinds of people that democracies require. that seems to me at the heart of what we have to do in this moment, particularly this moment of crisis. >> the purity and need of truth. thank you for being with us. it's a pleasure to speak with you. >> a deep thinker. i appreciate that. up next, we will turn to our other top story, the devastating wildfires on maui. residents are trying to process the magnitude of the suffering, the loss, as the number of people killed approaches 100. >> it's like a bomb went off. it's the end of all of it. it's gone. rsv is in for a surprise. meet arexvy. 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