>> the defendants engaged in a criminal racketeering enterprise to overturn georgia's presidential election results. >> this hour on msnbc, what comes next with trump and his co-defendants ordered to surrender within ten days? plus, the allegations laid out in a sweeping 98-page indictment, with a deep dive into the use of ricoh, a law normally used for gangsters and mobsters. >> and the d.a.'s plan to try all 19 defendants together. setting the stage for a tremendous complicated and very public trial. al it is 10:00 eastern. great to be with you. i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york alongside my colleague and friend jose diaz-balart. this morning, donald trump stands indicted for the fourth time in as many months. this time in georgia, alongside 18 top allies, accused in a sweeping conspiracy to overturn the state's 2020 election results. >> with charges filed, the clock starts now. trump and his co-defendants have ten days to surrender. the district attorney wants a trial, a potential televised trial within six months. this indictment is potentially more significant for trump than anything to date. he could not pardon himself on state charges even if he wins back the white house. >> and nbc news correspondent blayne alexander is outside the fulton county courthouse. also with us, ken dilanian, barbara mcquaid and patricia murphy for the atlanta journal constitution. thank you for being with us. many of you got very little sleep. blayne, you had a long night, long day. walk us through what happened and what else is inside this nearly 100-page indictment. >> reporter: well, there is a lot inside. i think we heard the term sprawling indictment a lot over the past 24 hours. but that's exactly what this is. we're talking about 41 counts, 19 defendants, and in addition to the former president, that's the top of the list, that's really the headline. but there are a number of other high profile individuals that were part of the former president's inner circle. of course, we're talking about his former chief of staff mark meadows, we're talking about his attorney rudy giuliani, jeffrey clark, a former top doj official and some names that you might not know that the majority of people may not be familiar with. david shaffer, the former head of georgia's republican party and one of georgia's 16 fake electors. all of them, however, they're facing a number of different charges in here, but they're all facing the same overarching charge, which is violation of georgia's ricoh act. this is a statute that specifically is reserved for prosecuting organized crime. prosecuting mobsters. but in her indictment, fani willis alleges a number of the different actions she lays out that were taken by trump and his associates in the days following 2020 election to overturn the election in georgia, according to the d.a., she says all of that amounts to criminal conspiracy. so, that's where we see that charge come in. now, of course, the former president himself is facing a number of other charges of predicate crimes in this indictment. chief among them a number of conspiracy charges as well. so, in that kind of dramatic late night news conference there, guys, she said, one, she plans to try them all together and, two, she's giving them a deadline. the clock is ticking for them to come to georgia and surrender. they have to turn themselves in by noon on friday, the 25th. that's about ten days from now. so, the things that we're chasing down today and trying to talk with our sources and figure out is what does that surrender look like? what are the terms of surrender? i know there are a number of people who will be involved in those conversations. the judge, who was assigned to this case, that judge is going to certainly have say. along with the d.a.'s office. and the attorneys for the defendants. and then finally the sheriff's office. all of them are going to have some sort of role in this. but we're told that nothing is off the table. we could possibly see fingerprints, possible mug shot for the former president and there is a possibility that he and the other defendants would have to turn themselves in at the fulton county jail rather than the courthouse. >> this isn't first time we're seeing charges against people like giuliani and mark meadows and the others that blayne was mentioning. talk to us about these 18 co-defendants. >> yeah, jose, as blayne said, it is a list that includes some well known names and also some folks most of our viewers probably never heard of. as you mentioned, all five of the identified unindicted co-conspirators are charged in georgia and all lawyers, that's rudy giuliani, kenneth chesebro, john eastman, sidney powell and sidney clark. and then there is former chief of staff mark meadows. then you have names nom prominently associated with this election scandal. for example, a woman named trevian koty, who is accused of traveling to atlanta to pressure an election worker to report fraud claims. and steven lee, an illinois-based pastor is accused of trying to pressure georgia election worker ruby freeman after she was targeted by trump's allies. there are also some names missing from this indictment that some people expected to see, including a lawyer named cleta mitchell and mike flynn, trump's former national security adviser and we're reporting out all those issues. >> we know there are dozens of unnamed, unindicted co-conspirators as well. so, barbara, trump himself is facing 13 new counts in this indictment. what do you make of the charges fani willis brought and how strong her case is based on what's laid out in the indictment. your thoughts. >> i know some people have mixed thoughts about ricoh, is it too sprawling, will it take too long? i like it. it is a great complement to the federal indictment that is already filed, designed to be streamlined. it discusses the full scope of the harm that occurred in georgia. it talks about not just fulton county, coffey county and makes reference to the other activity going on in the other six states. so, it gives fani willis the opportunity to address the full scope of the harm. i think the other thing that she does here that is different from the federal indictment is she puts a real face, a human face on some of these crimes. she talks about the people who are pressured, the lower level public officials in georgia, the election workers like ruby freeman and shaye moss and about how they were harassed and intimidated. and i think that really brings home to ordinary people the harm that was done here. i think you talk about pressuring mike pence, but you see lower level public servants that do this work because they care about their communities, that resonates with people. i think for that reason it will have a lot of jury appeal. >> we'll speak more about rico, what it is and how different it is in different states in just a little bit. patricia, i want to have you listen to what fani willis said about timing for this trial. >> i don't have any desire to be first or last. i want to try him and be respectful for our sovereign states. we do want to move this case along and so we will be asking for a proposed order that occurs -- a trial date within the next six months. >> a trial in six months. how is that going to work, not only for trump, his other cases, but campaign schedule, also within the georgia judicial system? >> yeah, a trial within the next six months will be extremely difficult for fani willis. she has a separate rico case going on now. it has taken nearly seven months to seat the jury and they have not finished seating the jury yet. so, with 19 defendants, 19 separate sets of counsel, 30 unindicted co-conspirators and, again, it took her two years to get this investigation together and complete, six months is extremely aggressive. but she is saying it is what she's going to request. obviously a number of motions will be filed in the meantime. likely motions to move this to federal court, potentially motions to sever some of the defendants apart from the larger case. we know there will be multiple machinations but she's setting out an aggressive timeline to say, whatever else is happening in the country, whatever else is happening politically this is her goal and this is her plan. >> barbara, given your legal experience, does this six-month timeline seem doable at all to you, given how many charges and how many defendants are part of this case? >> no. it is seems unlikely to me. i think that it is an aspiration of fani willis'. in a perfect world, that could happen. if 15 of the defendants entered guilty pleas and now down to four defendants and everything goes perfectly smoothly, it would be possible. but that seems unlikely. some of these people will likely plead guilty but not all of them. and many of them will file motions, have problems with lawyers, there will be hiccups along the way. and so in my experience rico cases can often take years, not months to come to trial. but that being said, one of the things she can do is sever the defendants for trial into smaller manageable groups of perhaps five or six defendants and put donald trump in the first group. and so if that's the case, then perhaps she could get this case tried before the november 2024 election. >> so there is the indictment against trump, he's facing from special counsel jack smith into overturning the 2020 election. are there any differences or similarities that you see between that case and this one? >> yeah, huge differences, jose. for one thing, jack smith decided to bring a streamline case and only charge donald trump. fani willis went in the other direction and brought in, you know, a vast number of defendants and a huge array of conduct. just much -- many more overt acts, including in other states outside of georgia. and obviously the laws are very different. and particularly as barbara pointed out with racketeering statute in georgia, the jury only needs to find that two of the alleged crimes occurred in order to find the defendants guilty of racketeering. so it is a very powerful statute for the prosecutors. it is more powerful than the federal one, which jack smith didn't even bring in his case. it is two different cases, approaching the same alleged conspiracy to subvert democracy in the 2020 election, with different legal theories. and we'll have to see what the courts do with either of them, but the one huge difference in georgia is that georgia is a case that donald trump cannot make go away, simply by getting himself elected president. >> and another big difference is what we as the public will be able to see, when it comes to these court proceedings. blayne, transparency is key in georgia. everything is on camera. talk to us about the significance of that. >> reporter: that is according to georgia law. the georgia supreme court kind of revised what is called -- known as our rule 22 here in georgia. that's the statute that allows cameras in the courtroom. and when they revised this a few years ago, they talked about the importance of transparency in judicial proceedings. that's why in the state of georgia, when it comes to superior court proceedings, cameras for the most part are allowed inside. ultimately it is up to a judge's discretion to decide whether or not to allow them in. but it almost always happens. there has to be some very specific circumstances, risk of harm, for instance has to be proven in order for cameras to be barred. what does that mean here? it means if there is a trump arraignment and if this gets to trial, cameras would be present for the duration of that process. it is something we saw the beginning of with the unsealing of that indictment yesterday. you see it right there. the fact that we were able to have cameras in the courtroom, but also extraordinary moments when the indictments were walked from the clerk's office to the judge on the bench, and officially unsealed. that's what we can expect in the months to come as we see these defendants come down here before a judge in fulton county. >> blayne alexander, ken dilanian, thank you. barbara mcquaid, thank you. patricia murphy, stick with us. we're going to have more coming up in the next two hours. coming up next, fulton county d.a. fani willis alleged a criminal enterprise in her indictment of donald trump and his 18 allies. why the antiracketeering law, mobster statute, has serious teeth in georgia. plus, who is fani willis? the georgia prosecutor's history and her two-year bid to build this case. and new reaction from the 2024 campaign trail. could this fourth indictment push gop rivals to go where they haven't gone before on the attack against donald trump? >> you're watching msnbc's special coverage of donald trump's fourth indictment. we're back in just 60 seconds. trump's fourth indictment. we're back in just 60 seconds. 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(vo) learn more. it's your vision, it's your verizon. subway refreshed everything. and now, they're slicing their meats fresh. that's why this pro proffers the new grand slam ham. so does this pro. i just love a grand slam... ham. and if we proffer it, we know you'll proffer it too. i knew he'd love that sandwich. pain hits fast. so get relief fast. only tylenol rapid release gels have laser-drilled holes. they release medicine fast... for fast pain relief. and now... ...get relief without a pill. with tylenol dissolve packs. relief without the water. welcome back. let's focus in on the rico charges at the center of this georgia indictment of donald trump. >> the federal act of racketeer influenced and corrupt organizations allows prosecutors to dismantle organized crime. most of us think about cases brought against gangsters and mobsters. >> but georgia's rico act goes further, allowing prosecutors to lump together several crimes by a group of different people if they're all in support of a common objective. so this allowed district attorney fani willis to link trump and his 18 allies into a web of alleged crimes. >> let's bring in former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official chuck rosenberg and atlanta journal constitution columnist pat murphy back with us. >> i'm a fan of rico. i told people that. the reason i'm a fan of rico is i think jurors are very, very intelligent. they want to know the whole story. they want to know what happened. they want to make an accurate decision about someone's life. and so rico is a tool that allows a prosecutor's office and law enforcement to tell the whole story. >> so, georgia's rico law is different, unique. how is it unique and how is this one considered maybe one of the toughest in the nation? >> for one thing, jose, it is broader than its federal counterpart. when congress passed rico, racketeer by the way is a quaint word for criminal. when congress passed rico in 1970, the concern was that mob families were using lots of criminals to commit disparate crimes, bribery, extortion, murder, bid rigging, all sorts of things. rico allowed the government, the federal prosecutors and the fbi, to sweep all these criminals into a single prosecutive bucket, a rico bucket. a lot of states followed suit. georgia in 1980 enacted its own rico statute, but georgia went broader, jose. they added more predicate crimes to their rico statute. so more of those disparate acts by the various criminals could be swept into the prosecutive bucket. what sort of predicate acts do they have in georgia that they don't have under federal law? well, forgery, false statements, computer trespass, the types of things you see popping up in the indictment that was just recently unsealed in fulton county permits a georgia prosecutor to go broader in this case, in her application, of the rico statute. >> you think about rico and a lot of people think about mobsters and rudy giuliani, he famously used the federal rico act to prosecute mobsters in the 1980s here in new york. just a reaction to the irony here that he's now charged with the same crime. >> yeah, it is ironic. but rico isn't reserved only for mobsters. you're quite right. it has been traditionally used for mobsters. but there is a famous case, i'm sure patricia knows it well, in fulton county, in which members of the atlanta public school system, teachers and administrators, were charged under rico, the georgia version of rico, because they inflated test scores. the criminal enterprise for purposes of that prosecution was essentially the atlanta public schools, not mobsters. so, that's how we think of it. you're quite right, ana. that's how it was conceived. that's why it was enacted. but its application can and in georgia has been broader. >> and, patricia, there are some names we recognize, giuliani and so many others in this indictment. and there are a lot of others that we really don't know at least on a national level. what can you tell us about some of the more local co-conspirators in the indictment and the potential impact all of this could have in terms of the political dynamics in georgia? >> yeah. among the people that she has charged here in this indictment, one is a sitting state senator, shawn still. also, of course, david shaffer was the head of the georgia republican party while all of this was going down. there is a former chairwoman of the coffey county republican party, that's a tiny rural county, and missy hampton who was the elections director in coffey county. the -- several of those people were involved in the fake electors scheme here in georgia. shawn still, david shaffer and cathy latham from coffey county, they serve as state electors or helped to coordinate the entire effort when georgia was otherwise casting ballots for joe biden. and these are people, i think this is going to be a tough part for georgians to go through. these are people who are people's neighbors, they're going to be parents with kids in little league. these are very well known in their neighborhoods, but certainly not national names and not famous figures, but they also have been wrapped up in this rico indictment and i think that it is very important to remember that rico has a mandatory minimum in georgia of five years in state prison and that, i think, will weigh very heavily on some of these defendants who are considering what their next steps are going to be. fani willis, again, has not shied away -- she was the prosecutor on that teacher case. she brought rico charges against elementary schoolteachers, and put some of them behind bars with their rico statute. so she is not afraid to bring it. she has a rico case going right now against rap singers in fulton county and gang members. it is something she used frequently. she brought a rico specialist on to her staff when she started this investigation. that's why we felt she would bring rico charges in this case. and last thing i'll say is that when we were living this in real time, these felt like one off events, why is rudy giuliani at the state capitol? why is coffey county reporting they had a breach of their system? we didn't know if they were connected. and this indictment connects all of those dots together under a single indictment. >> we heard her at the top of this segment discussing just that, this idea that rico laws are to bring everything together, the complete picture for those who are trying to connect the dots. i did just get a statement here into our nbc and msnbc newsroom from raffensperger's office, the secretary of state in georgia, was secretary of state at the time, still is, won re-election after all this, even after trump tried to put a challenger against him and prop up that challenger. here's what he says. the most basic principles of a strong democracy are accountability and respect for the constitution and rule of law. you either have it or you don't. chuck, your reaction to that. >> right, exactly. you sustain the rule of law by following the facts, with -- you ask witnesses or compel witnesses to testify. they do so under oath and they tell the truth. it is really not that complex. i agree with mr. raffensperger, but it is really not that complex. you know, one very good thing, ana, in all this turmoil, all this noise, has been a lot of heat, not all that much light, the courts have held state, federal, around the country, excuse me, i think this is a good thing, i think it is an important thing, and i do think it is undergirds the rule of law. >> what are the charges deals with alleged harassment and intimidation of ruby freeman, you'll recall. she testified in front of the january 6th committee about how her life had been upended. take a listen. >> there is nowhere i feel safe, nowhere. do you know how it feels to have the president of the united states to target you, but he targeted me. lady ruby, a small business owner, a mother, a proud american citizen, who stood up to help fulton county run an election in the middle of the pandemic. >> and the indictment actually states, members of the enterprise stole data, including ballot images, voting equipment software and personal voter information, the stolen data was then distributed to other members of the enterprise, including members in other states. patricia, what do you know about that? >> so that had a lot to do with the coffey county data breach in which members of the trump campaign hired a data security firm to go down to coffey county and have access to that through misty hampton and copy the data, copy the software, copy a lot of the information on the dominion voting machines. the fact that we now know that was shared with other states, i don't think that we knew that before. but it does get to the other piece of this indictment. there are multiple efforts described in here that included what was happening simultaneously in other states. so it connects georgia to arizona, michigan, wisconsin, where there were other efforts to both access data machines, also efforts to have fake elector schemes, also efforts to call special sessions of the legislatures. it puts georgia into the context of a large almost national conspiracy to overturn the 2020 elections by going into individual states like georgia and overturning those single states elections as well. so i think that that's an important piece of this as well. she is talking about events that have happened all over the country, but we were also seeing them in real time here in georgia in 2020. >> patricia murphy and chuck rosenberg, you're so bright and really helpful. thank you so much for joining us. up next, a hearing for donald trump's co-defendant in a different case this morning. just in the last few minutes, in fact, the status of trump's other legal fights as he faces a new indictment. plus, who is fani willis, the georgia d.a., who just indicted trump and 18 allies? the collision course she's on with him and history. you're watching special coverage of the former president's fourth indictment here on msnbc. the former president's fourth indictment here on msnbc. 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[ cheers ] running up and down that field looks tough. it's a pitch. get way more into what you're into when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. welcome back. this morning in florida, donald trump's co-defendant entered a not guilty plea and that's just the latest court date in the sprawling legal cases against trump. >> we're up to four indictments against four jurisdictions totalling 91 charges. let's bring in nbc news justice reporter ryan reilly from washington and former federal prosecutor glen kirschner. thank you for being with us this morning. ryan, we mentioned one of trump's co-defendants in the federal classified documents case pleaded not guilty just moments ago. what can you tell us about that hearing? >> yes, so third time's the charm here, initially we saw an appearance late last month and another one scheduled for next week, but hasn't been able to secure a local lawyer and finally this third court appearance we have a not guilty plea entered. i think it illustrative of some of the complications that come up when you add several defendants, for example, 19 defendants in fulton county there that really this case is really just has become complicated and can lead to delays and the timeline can quickly slip. when you talk about that many defendants. already we're talking about a couple, handful of defendants, and the mar-a-lago documents case, and you have these issues come up and these delays and various parties able to file various motions so it can very quickly snowball. and in significant court delays. that's why the fast track one here still does seem to be the main case against trump in d.c. that is all about january 6th and stopping that peaceful transfer of power where he has several unindicted co-conspirators who aren't named and really i think that was the strategic move on behalf of the special counsel to make sure they sort of got that on the fast track to make sure there weren't going to be these complicating factors with all of these defendants and all of these lawyers because when you start getting all these filings, it is hard to keep up with and can lead to significant delays that would make even getting a calendar date set for some time next year as donald trump has these ongoing other criminal cases, as donald trump has to deal with a lot of outgoing legal issues and all these defendants more complicated, especially when you match it up against the 2024 calendar. >> and trump in full blown attack mode going after judges, commenting on them and all these different cases as well as witnesses. he posted on truth social yesterday, quote, i'm reading reports that failed former lieutenant governor of georgia jeff duncan will be testifying, he shouldn't. this was right before jeff duncan went before the grand jury. you said this is essentially witness tampering. >> yeah, this seems to violate georgia state law that prohibits influencing witnesses from testifying in an official proceeding like a grand jury proceeding. you know, i was in court earlier this month, when i heard the magistrate judge put donald trump on notice at his arraignment, that you're, quote, most important condition of release is that you not violate any federal, state or local law and if you do, your release in this case could be revoked. what does donald trump do virtually hours before a georgia grand jury votes to indict him? he does precisely what the magistrate judge put him on notice he must not do, and he tried to influence a witness by saying something that just was mind blowing. he said the witness shouldn't testify in a grand jury criminal investigation into donald trump's alleged crimes. i contend that what should happen next, ana, is that that information should be packaged up, should be presented to judge tanya chutkan, the presiding judge in his case in washington, d.c., she'll need to make a decision at a very low evidentiary burden of preponderance of the evidence, excuse me, probable cause, if that constitutes witness tampering in violation of his pretrial conditions. >> then what? >> release conditions. that i think is where this may end up. it is a state law violation, potentially, but it may end up right back in the courts of washington, d.c. >> but that's the question then is what happens next. if this is a violation of that, what could happen to trump and obviously it is more complicated with trump because he's got secret service protection, can't just throw him behind bars and it is as simple as that, right? there are a lot of other factors that could result in how this goes forward. >> absolutely. it is definitely more complicated if we are willing to indulge that donald trump should be given special preferential treatment. but at some point when you put a defendant on pretrial release and set conditions for him, particularly in a criminal case involving an attempt to thwart the peaceful transfer of presidential power, when that defendant violates those conditions, there have to be consequences. there have to be sanctions if we need -- can expect people to have any faith in the legitimacy of the court or of the conditions set by a judge. >> glen, so d.a. willis is the third prosecutor to bring charges against trump. and this is interesting. here's what she said previously about jack smith and then what she said about communications with or coordination with jack smith when asked about that last night. take a listen to both. >> in all honesty, if jack smith was standing next to me, i'm not sure i would know who he was. my guess is he couldn't pronounce my name correctly. [ inaudible ] >> i'm not going to discuss our investigation at this time. >> so, glen, there is a difference there, right? i don't know if he would even know my name and now i'm not going to talk about it. is there a different tone here or not? >> it felt a little different. maybe she has had some communication with jack smith in the interim and doesn't want to disclose or divulge that. i think it would make some sense to at least communicate with your fellow prosecutors across the state and federal jurisdictions that are involved in prosecuting donald trump, simply communicate on things like timing, on the potential for trial dates, because when you have, you know, four criminal trials on your dance card, there has to be some coordination, some communication, and some prioritizing of, you know, who should go first who should go second, who should go third. i actually hope that that's an indication that d.a. willis is at least communicating with her fellow prosecutors. >> ryan reilly and glen kirschner, thank you for being with us this morning. overnight, the prosecutor at the heart of this case became one of the most well known lawyers in the country. fulton county d.a. fani willis took office in 2021, just days before the first reporting from "the washington post" about trump's january call to georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger, pressing him to find votes. >> we do know willis has served 19 years as a prosecutor. and her office says their conviction rate hovers around 90%. joining us now, "wall street journal" reporter cameron mcwhirter who has written by willis, interviewed her last month. cameron, thank you for taking the time. d.a. willis has not been doing a whole lot of interviews lately, but you talked to her in july. what impression did you take away? >> she is out to win. that is -- that's the main thing i got. she's a workaholic. and admittedly so. and she is hyperobsessed with preparation. so she walked -- this investigation took two and a half years. and she walked in to -- she presented almost 100 page indictment, very sprawling, very broad, involving a lot of people, a lot of actors, 19 people indicted including former president trump, but she has definitely done her homework and their staff has done their homework. it is going to be -- the battle is on here. >> and we were mentioning that 90%, her conviction rate is 90%. it is high. a lot of d.a.s shoot towards that, don't often get there. what are some of the cases that she has been so successful in carrying out? >> well, she was well known for homicides. she would handle murder cases. and she had a very, very high conviction rate there. but she is most well known for the atlanta cheating scandal. she was a lead prosecutor on that case, which was a rico case. and if that was, you know, that was a very, very big scandal in which teachers and administrators in atlanta were charged with conspireing to inflate -- to change test scores, to make the school system look better. and she, you know, she got a lot of heat for that case because -- it was a very high profile case in atlanta. and she took the heat and got 11 convictions out of 12 people who were ultimately tried and they used rico. and this is -- this case last night involves very different actors, but it is basically the same battle plan. >> so, you write that willis once described herself as one of the best murder prosecutors in the country, you say some of her co-workers told you she's a stickler for -- she puts in 12-hour days, and you touched on all of this. what are you hearing from fellow prosecutors about her reputation as well as i wonder how she is handling the ongoing attacks from donald trump, who continues to claim that she is making this all about politics? >> she is very aware of that criticism. and has really, but, again, back to the atlanta cheating scandal. that was a very important case here in atlanta in which every time she went to the grocery store, you know, people were cornering her and many people were extremely angry at her for that prosecution. and she stuck to her guns, she doesn't -- she doesn't get ruffled by this sort of thing. and she certainly has been dealing with criticisms from former president trump for two and a half years, and she's ready for it. she's not -- she's not going to shrink away. now, of course, trump and his supporters who have been indicted, they all have really good defense attorneys and those defense attorneys are already digging into this indictment. but, she is here to win. and it is going to be -- she doesn't walk away from -- she's here to win. >> really consistently hear that, from you, from others who have been covering her, journalists as well as other legal analysts that we had on our air who know her personally about her laser focus on finding justice, doing her job. cameron, really appreciate your time. thank you. up next, candidate and defendant, how donald trump's complicated legal and campaign calendars are colliding. what the former president's gop competitors are saying about his newest indictment, is this the one that finally spurs them to turn up the heat on the front-runner? 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( ♪♪ ) ( ♪♪ ) can't stop adding stuff to your cart? get the bank of america customized cash rewards card, choose the online shopping category and earn 3% cash back. ♪i've got home internet from t-mobile.♪ ♪it only costs $50 bucks at t-mobile.♪ ♪just one cord to set up.♪ ♪say goodbye to that truck.♪ ♪oh, what a beautiful mornin'...♪ ♪oh, what a beautiful day...♪ ♪they won't raise your rates at t-mobile...♪ ♪you'll get a great deal every day!♪ home internet from t-mobile... just $50 bucks a month. david: i'm david goldberg, a bilingual elementary school teacher and president of the california teachers association. as we start a new school year, there's something new happening in california's public schools. jessie: they're called community schools. david: where parents and families, students and educators are making decisions as one. damien: it's a real sense of community. leslie: we saw double-digit gains in math, in english, and reading scores. david: it's an innovation that's transforming our public schools. narrator: california's community schools: reimagining public education. we are beginning to get reaction to donald trump's latest indictment from his 2024 rivals, and so far the responses are following the pattern we have seen. >> former arkansas governor asa hutchinson, a frequent trump critic, calling it another challenging day for our democracy. and doubling down that trump should be disqualified from serving again. vivek ramaswamy, one of trump's strongest defenders on the trail, had the opposite reaction. >> these are politicized persecutions through prosecution. we the people, you all, get to decide who governs. not the federal police state. if he's convicted of these politicized prosecutions in the interest of moving this country forward, yes, i will pardon him. >> joining us now from iowa, where the candidates have been crisscrossing the state, through the iowa state fair, which is kind of ground zero, is nbc news correspondent ali vitali. ali, great seeing you. this is the fourth time this has happened, right? we haven't heard from many of the candidates just yet. this really kind of broke overnight almost. what are your expectations that someone is going to change how they have been reacting to trump? >> reporter: they're pretty low, jose. that's because we have been here before, and before, and before. this is our fourth time seeing the former president face an indictment. this time in georgia. but, of course, every candidate at this point has sort of already shown us how they're going to react to this. and for the campaigns, if you were willing to stand by trump and call this a two-tiered political system of justice already, you're still doing that in the aftermath of this latest indictment, or likely will when a reaction comes out, and if you're a candidate like former arkansas governor asa hutchinson or chris christie, your reaction sounds like this. watch. >> this is why i'm uncomfortable with what i read last night. i think that this conduct is essentially covered by the federal indictment. not at the level of detail they covered in this. but that's a stylistic thing. i think this was unnecessary. >> reporter: but, look, for someone like christie, he's saying it is unnecessary, but certainly has spoken about the fact that the federal probe is really one that he is watching, and he has not come to trump's defense in that. that's notable for the rest of the field too. >> so what are you hearing from voters there in iowa? is this different in their minds? >> reporter: no, again, this is just another moment where they're forced to grapple with both the charges themselves, which most voters that are for president trump say they don't believe in the charges here, but i do think that this is the thing that we'll wait and see if it has an impact, whether or not the charges influence voters' minds of whether or not trump can be electable and that's the conversation i had just in the last few minutes here. i want to play for you a part of that conversation. >> at a certain point, you maybe don't care about the charges. does it give you pause about his ability to win again? >> yes. so, as far as the charges go, like, i don't see anything there, but as far as someone who is a republican, i don't see -- it is hard for me to see the lane for victory for him. >> reporter: this is a man who is looking at other republicans running in this primary, specifically vivek ramaswamy and senator tim scott. it is early. no one is making decisions here yet. but at the end of the day, i asked him, if it ends up being trump versus biden again in a general, which way are you going to go and he would reluctantly go with trump. that's a decision that most republican voters feel they're eventually going to have to make, but it is also why this primary is so striking. as the concerns mount about electability or even potentially about the legal charges themselves, the fact that voters are saying, either way if i'm a republican, i'm probably still going to vote for the former president is something we need to keep an eye on, especially if the indictments come convictions. >> right. that's the big question in terms of next steps. ali vitali, appreciate it, thanks so much. let's bring in republican strategist susan del percio and former chair of the new york state democratic party bazell smikle. i'm curious to get your thoughts on whether another indictment has a different political impact. >> probably not in the primary. and what's interesting you hear a former trump supporter saying i will reluctantly vote for trump in a general election. which means that is trump's base, who else is going to vote for him? because if we look at the last results, it means that independent swing voters are not voting for trump, so he'll lose. the real impact, immediate impact i'm looking for, from this last indictment, is how does it affect independent voters in the general election and what does it say against donald trump versus joe biden. if we start seeing those numbers separate, by five, six, seven points, the argument to say donald trump cannot win a general election will start to take hold. right now, they're still in -- they're still pretty close, within three, four, five points. emerson college hasn't polled and joe biden is beating him by seven. >> some have them in a dead heat, right? >> if it starts moving from dead heat to trump losing, like i said, five, six, seven points, there is a different argument to be made. and that can happen very quickly. that can happen way before iowa voting. >> and there are some trying to make that argument right now. georgia's former lieutenant governor, george duncan -- jeff duncan, who testified before the grand jury yesterday is urging republicans to pivot already. take a listen to what he said. >> i walked into a gop 2.0, one that focuses on policies that matter, not lies, not tweets, but policies that matter, that meet americans at the kitchen table. that's what this is all about. let's have a discussion about the facts. if we have a discussion about the facts, i like the outcome. >> if that's what this is all about, and it is all about the facts, why are we where we are today? >> we talked about this before, what is intellectually persuasive may not be emotionally compelling. while what he said resonates with some republicans, those republicans are probably disaffected and would have voted for joe biden anyway or independent leaning right and would likely go with joe biden anyway. this issue about electability is very important because what is going to change the overall narrative is to whether or not trump can get elected and certainly in a primary and also in a general. my guess is, five, six months away from the primaries, he's got to lose one of the first two. if he can lose one of the first two, that gives someone else an opportunity to raise money and compete against him for the foreseeable future after that primary. if that doesn't happen, he wins iowa and new hampshire, it is almost -- it is a done deal at that point. >> and just to add on that, i think the other thing that would have to happen for someone to take him out in iowa or new hampshire is we have to see a bunch of candidates get out. >> that's right. >> oh. >> and then -- >> maybe the first debate will make a difference. >> there is less options to stop splitting the vote. there are some who are not thrilled about voting for donald trump. they just need somewhere to go and if they start splintering off among six candidates, now i'm not saying that's going to be a deal breaker -- >> the other candidates have zero or 0.5%, so it is not like they're going to, you know, cut away at anything major.e voters for trump say they don't believe in the charges here. i do think this is the wait and thing that will wait and see if it has an impact of whether or not trump can be electable, and that's a conversation i had in the last few minutes here, and i want to play you part of tha >> reporter: at a certain point, maybe you don't care about the charges, but does a it give you pause if he can win again? >> yes, as far as the charges go i don't see anything go, but as far as somebody who is a republican, i don't see -- it's hard for me to see the lane for victory t for him. >> reporter: now, look, this is a man who is looking at other republicans running in this primary, specifically vivek ramaswamy and tim scott, and it's early and nobody is making decisions yet, and at the end of the day i asked him if it ends up being trump and biden in the general, he said he would go with gotrump. this is why the primarily is so striking, that as these concerns may look at electability, the voters are saying either way if i am a republican i will vote for the former president is something we need to keep an eye on, especially in the indictments become convictions. >> thank you. let's bring in our strategists. i am curious as to get your thoughts on if another indictment has a different political impact? >> probably not in the primary. what is interesting is you hear a former trump supporter say i will reluctantly vote for trump. that means that's trump's base. if we look at the last results, ite means the independent swin voters are not voting for trump, so he will lose. the impact i am looking for in the last indictment is how does it affect the independent voters in the general election, and what does it say about trump versus joe biden. if we see the numbers separate by five, six, seven points, and the argument that trump cannot win a general election will start to take hold. right now they are still pretty close.tt they are within three, four or five points, and although emerson college has a poll where biden is beating him by seven. >> but there are also polls where they are in a dead heat, right? >> yeah, and if those numbers move to where trump is losing, that is going to make a big difference. >> a lot ofa people are tryingo make that argument right now, georgia's former republican, listen to what he said. >> to launch into gop 2.0, and one that focuses on policies that matter, and not lies or tweets but policies that matter and they lead the conversations at the kitchen table. if we have a discussion about the facts, i like the outcome. >> if this is what it's all about, it's all about the facts, where are we where we are today. he's got to lose one of the first two, because if hene can lose one of the first two, that gives somebody else a primate. the chief of police described the grim reality to me. >> burnt debris, and dust is on you, and it's not just dust on you, but it's our dead. >> yes, i wish we could have done more. lahaina firefighters tried saving their town, but said crews had no chance. water pressure was too low. >> we ran out of water. >> you ran out of water with the nation's most deadliest wildfire. >> yeah. it was very disheartening. >> officials now examining the timeline of events. here's what we know, a brushfire near lahaina was reported around 6:30 tuesday morning, and while some evacuations were ordered maui officials thought they had it under control. possibly giving residents a false sense of security. hours later, hurricane-force winds caused the fires to explode. emergency sirens were not activated. >> there will be multiple reviews at every level. >> the intense heat palpable from being stuck in traffic. >> my mom said, oh, mom, is this it? what do you tell your kids? >> with no way out, they had to flee on h foot, and that's when she saw this car with a little girl trapped inside. >> she was sitting on a blanket and i wrapped her in the blanket and i told my kids to say, run. >> luckily they survived, her family now safe. >> my heart is in lahaina, and lahaina is home, period. >> reporter: so incredible they were able to rescue that child. the 2,200 structures destroyed inside the burn zone, about 80% of those were residential, and so many are displaced. the government is working with hotels rkhere, local, landlords and airbnbs, and they are asking people in the mainland and u.s. if they have second homes here, condos, apartments, a house, if they could offer it up to the people of maui, they definitely need it. back to you. >> where does this recovery even begin. much more ahead in our second hour. >> given there are so many codefendants in the case, will the loyalty around trump be tested? >> we're back after a short break. stay there. break. stay there power e*trade's easy-to-use tools make complex trading less complicated. custom scans help you find new trading opportunities, while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. permission to dig in? 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