Transcripts For MSNBCW Alex 20240704

Mounting about why residents werent given more warning. Whether more should been done to alert people, to what the governor says, will likely be the largest Natural Disaster in state history. Nbcs joining us from maui, lets talk the latest on the search for survivors. Is it still being classified as a Recovery Operation . How are they looking at their . This is still a Search And Rescue effort. You may have seen me spinning around as this was happening. That is because the road behind me has just opened up. This road has been shut down due to a curfew for the last few hours. Really, overnight, stay lit a few people in yesterday. Then they shut it all down all of a sudden yesterday. People have been waiting here for hours, since 3 00 in the afternoon yesterday. It is now 5 00 in the morning. This is finally opening. This is a huge deal to folks. They are still waiting to get into see their homes. Maybe reunite with people that are missing. This is happening as we speak. I will tell you that Search And Rescue effort is, certainly, the primary operation. Things are getting desperate. A lot of it is shifting to recovery. More and more cadaver dogs, teams that are now diving into these buildings that they were not able to get access to. Unequivocally they will find more dead. Again, youre looking at this live. People now, for the firsttime, getting to go back in. They will likely see the ruins and remains of their community. Take a look at what we found. Take a l ook atthis morning, the Grim Rey Setting in. Residents returning to the charred neighborhoods where their homes wanted. Why is governor saying it looked like an atomic bomb hit. Warning locals to brace themselves. Everybody lost everything. We dont know how to feel. The view from above showing the apocalyptic scene it was left of a raging wildfire swept through the Island Tuesday taking nearly everything in its path. Homes flattened loans of cars incinerated the Historic Town of lahaina in ruins. Nbc tom giannis flying with a Helicopter Company now delivering Water Supplies to the people in need. Its so heartbreaking. It is hard to put into words what weve seen out here. The exact cause of the fire still unknown. Dramatic new video now emerging showing the frantic moments as people jumped in the water to escape the flames. There was a very challenging situation for our small boat crews. Rescue teams combing through one destroyed building after another. It is the most heartbreaking thing ive ever been through. Residents making their way to the burn zone over the weekend, the line of traffic getting back into the Highness Trenches for miles. This is horrendous. We are just trying to figure out what we have. If we have anything at all. Many who evacuated, shock and sadness now turning to questions. Usually they put on the hurricane sirens. They do something to warn us. Nothing. Like, everyone was just Word Of Mouth evacuating. Some residents are asking why they didnt hear warnings from the siren system before the fires erupted . Why is governor telling nbc news that telecommunications were severely impacted by fire and high winds. Much of the equipment was destroyed with the fire. It is a very remote place. Of course, we would never diminish any kind of responsibility. We will leave it to our Emergency Management team to help explain things Going Forward. Three other other systems were activated according to the why merge unseat Services Administration including phone, tv, and radio alerts. For now, the race to find survivors going more desperate by the hour. Again, this road opening up. This is the road into town, into lahaina. A lot of people have been waiting in this line you see behind me for hours. I mean ours. E for just having to close off r back. Some people were tourists happening jumped in a car instantly overnight. Other people made to shelters, they want to know what was happening back at their homes. Other people need vital medication that they havent been able to get access to. This is an important moment for these folks who have been waning this will go on, maybe, for about a mile or so. Back on down we have spoken to some of these residents. They are a little bit frustrated with the level of communication on how to get access back to the haina. They are happy now, obviously, that this traffic has opened up. In the meantime the Rescue Effort does continue. I will say that it is getting more desperate by the minute by the hour that death toll certainly expected to increase. It is beyond heartbreaking to observe all of this. I imagine that line goes back as far as we can see. People trying to come back to see what, if anything, they may have. Thank you so much. We will see you again in the next hour. If theres one big question that remains, it exists . How and why did wildfires but so quickly . I will talk to representatives from fema at the bottom of the hour. Also developing this, our former president , donald, trump is expected to arrive within the hour at the iowa state fair. It is a signature political event when candidates coverage on the first of the nationstate to meet angry voters. Trump and his chief gop rival, rhonda santiff, will be campaigning at that same event. While there is no indication on whether they will come face to face, many iowa voters are looking at it as a clear showdown. I did vote for trump in the last election. But we love desantis. I like trump. He delivered on many things. But trump has an ability to end up fighting people. Trumps trip to iowa comes hours after judge chutkan issued a protective order with limits on Sharing Evidence on trumps three federal indictments making remarks about the case. Special counsel in the hunter biden investigation, republicans say this could be a tactic to stonewall their congressional investigation. Democrats say it is what republicans have been clamoring for. It puts republicans in a bind. They are the ones who called for a Special Counsel. We gave them a Special Counsel. Theyre the ones who accused the Department Of Justice being a deep state and city out to get trump. But that same entity is in fact holding the president s son, the democratic president some, to account. For more on those developing stories im joined by nbc news s ryan riley who was in the room for the trump hearing yesterday. Also the hunter biden Special Counsel announcement. And makes you very busy guy. I can throw bunch of questions that you starting with this, ryan. Starting with this, ryan what exactly does this Executive Order order trump from talking about . How do we know if he violates it . It is gonna cover a lot of the evidence. Some of the evidence is already on to possession through other means. Various ways that it can already have gone to him. Whether you be documents from his prison to, communication directly with him, et cetera. That is gonna cover a lot of information although Donald Trumps team can always appeal that go to the judge and say, hey, we think this should be changed in some way. Overall, the judge is attempting to hammer through that she is not going to tolerate any attempts to intimidate witnesses or any language that might lead to the intimidation of witnesses. Obviously donald trump has this entire Social Media Platform that he owns. Is a major Lake Megaphone that he is historically targeted in january six himself. We saw what happened at the result of his rhetoric. And think that is all ultimately what its gonna be making the message clear for donald trump and his lawyers. Making sure that she is in charge of the courtroom. And her priority is bringing the case to fruition. One theme that we had on there was the world yield. Donald trumps First Amendment rights are going to yield to the court justices. The priority the number two priority would be his rights. Making sure that it is known that this case is most important thing moving forward. She is going to make that a priority. What if he talks at a turn . What if he violates this order . Do you think that could speed up his case . E it current a very much could. Obviously the big thing is holding him in contempt, potentially. Realistically we are talking about a former president here. And the message that she really hammered home is it will be very difficult to get an unbiased jury. You are making all of these public comments. That is really going to speed up his case. That is the carrot and the stick that we are working with here. If you make these inflammatory comments, we are going to have to press this and get the trial going us into the. Can lets play what some of abby lowe and the attorney for hunter biden said yesterday before the appointment of the Special Counsel in that case. Here it is. His title became Special Counsel today. His powers were the same yesterday. What is different . Doesnt make any difference to us be given what we understood to be the case. Once again, people need to understand that the Attorney General and he, he mr. Weiss, have sent for a long time. He had all the authority he needed to get all of the charges appropriate in one place. The answer should be nothing different. So quickly, to you, why did the doj feel it was necessary to appoint a Special Counsel . What kind of effect could that have on the Special Counsel investigation . They didnt specify but i think here is a solid theory for why they would need to do this. He was the u. S. Attorney for delaware. If there are other charges he needs to bring elsewhere, he cannot do that under his current authority. Becoming Special Counsel allows him to bring cases elsewhere including california and in washington d. C. Where some of the alleged conduct took place. You cannot just have the u. S. Attorney from deliver filing occurs in d. C. That is the impediment that was brought forward. From the beginning they we said that he is interested of this case. If theyre gone with a plea agreement, it couldve done this in delaware. That wouldve involved waving the rights that hunter biden had. He wouldve had to waive his venue. Rights thank that was the main impediment. Brian riley, thank you so much for that. All of, you heads up. Watch for ryans upcoming book, sedition hunters. How january 6th broke the justice system. It is set for release in october. Meanwhile, my next guest was also in the courtroom when the judge issued a protective order against donald trump. What doj might drop the 11 million documents in this case. We are back in 60 seconds. Mlb chooses tmobile for business for 5g solutions. To not only enhance the fan experience, but to advance how the game is played. Nows the time to see what americas largest 5g network can do for your business. Mr. Clean magic eraser powers through tough messes. So it makes it look like i spent hours cleaning, and you know i didnt. It makes my running shoe look like new its amazing. Its so good. It makes it look like i have magical powers. Magic eraser and sheets make cleaning look easy. New today Donald Trumps legal team is waiting for prosecutors to share 11. 6 million pages, and 100, containing electronic evidence in trumps criminal election conspiracy case. These Government Officials are judge yesterday issued a protective order uncensored information. Ignoring the defense about making ambiguous and inflammatory statements that could be connected to the case. Joining me now, hugo lowell political bus to get a reporter with the guardian. And Kristie Gibbons former assistant d. A. In montgomery county, pennsylvania. Now a civil rights attorney. Welcome to you. Both hugo, you first, you were in the courtroom yesterday. What stood out to you during the hearing . Was it any contentious moments . At the end of the day this was a procedural hearing to discuss guide the scope of a protective order. I think the theme was the judge laying down the law, in a sense. Saying that there would be no politics and no nonsense in my courtroom as we go to trial one of the big things was her warning at the very end when she effectively told trumps counsel that if trump continues to make inflammatory remarks then that could press her to go to trial soon her. If you look at the content of the Executive Order this was indicative of where her mind is that as we go through the proceedings not lisa she told trump that he could not be sharing discovery materials with anyone other than his Notice Council that are defending him in this case. Some of these other people might include yet unidentified coconspirators. Here is a look at now is off limits to trump. Personally identifying information, evidence presented to the grand jury, anything sealed. Anything related to witness interviews. You asked, what is not covered by the protective order . That is the correct question to ask because trumps lawyers thought they Hada Predural win when the judge said, okay, we will designate some material of sensitive another arians nonsense into. Trump is free to share the nonsense of the material. When she actually broke down what might be a niche bucket, the things left in the nonsense of the bucket or probably throw then to difficult to make it yesterday a win for trump. Although they do get one of their request granted. I think that Going Forward in this case trump is going to have a lot of problems at least with this judge who, another January 6th Riot defending cases, have made clear that the obstruction of power was a grave issue. She definitely has an issue on that. Is there any sense, quickly, and when doj might drop these 11 million documents, who knows how many audio visual recordings . The prosecutors yesterday there in the Special Counsels office said that it was going to come very, very, shortly. They would expect to have the majority of the discovery complete by august 28th. That is the next time the there might be a slight wrinkle because there may be Classified Information but that will have to go through the necessary steps as part of the discovery but it sounds like the majority of the discovery is going to be done by the end of this month. Kristin, to you, the judge is allowing trump to view material on his own. He should not have a device that either photographs or records. Its his lawyers need to review any notes that he takes. How is judge chucking going to enforce this . Does her lawyer now put the lawyers in some sort of legal crosshairs . As lawyers we are officers of the court we have to be candid to their core otherwise we face ethical and legal bars. This really does put the onus on the lawyers in this case given trumps history of not really listening to lawyers, i think this is going to be a really challenging task for his attorneys. Do you think it is an unenviable position they find themselves in . Absolutely. I would not want to find myself in that position. Listen, they are skilled attorneys. They have a successful track record. They are going to put themselves, if they are smart, in situations where their client will not be able to create situations that could potentially disbar them, for lead them to have trying to tell the court that he has violated this order. I want to go through some of judge chutkan remarks. The effects of the Political Campaign will not influence my decision here. What does this tell you on how she intends to run this trial on how far she is intending to go if he violates her order. It is interesting because i think it is consistent with how she has always been on the corner. This protective order really did do a great job of striking that balance. It made sure that it protected witnesses, protected witnesses and the information and the trial but it also minimized any infringement on trumps First Amendment right, as you pointed out. It is not absolute you. Were not allowed to engage in misconduct that would intimidate or create any type of fear for witnesses in terms of retaliation. Or cause them not to want them to testify at trial. She really is maintaining the integrity of the process. Notwithstanding the fact that his comments could, potentially, taint a jury pool to get his ability to get a fair trial. I think shes really trying to strike that balance there. The doj wants this trial to start on january 2nd of next year. Other trump trials are set with march with key dates on the gop calendar between them. Do prosecutors receive the appearance of trump being piled under . What are you hearing with the Behind The Scenes schedule . I think the schedule in the 2020 election case is more aggressive than people had intubated. It is a very fast timeline to go from [inaudible] already as a trial scheduled in new york, the new york case. I think there is an expectation, on the Justice Department side, that this will get pushback. Not least because there will be extensive pretrial motions and have to be brought. Also because of this added element because the potential Classified Information being introduced in this trial, as well. Let me ask you the same question if i could, its almost like predicting the weather in the summer. The prediction are really hard to make. A normal legal proceeding with a normal Criminal Defendant and we would still yield itself to these complexities. Given that it is trump it is even harder. The sheer magnitude of the case, the expectation of lots of pretrial motion. The amount of sensitivity in information you point out 11 million documents that it will need to be reviewed. That will have to be carefully balanced against the Constitutional Rights to a fair trial. Zealous competent attorneys representing them. And confidence in the attorney not just based on experience but the ability of the attorney to really go through the material unprepared fence. Those are all things that need to be taken into place. Sounds like the judge is gonna move things along but she has to be mindful of all the other upcoming trial as a trump house in 2020 for both civilly and related to the trump organization. Its gonna make it really tough. Listening to you guys, it is also extraordinary. Also unprecedented. Absolutely unbelievable time to hear now. Thank you both, good to see you. Meanwhile, Donald Trumps gop rivals try to make their mix and i. What you might find a more interesting debate in the crowd. We will tell you about one telling, impromptu exchange of next. 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Oh my gosh totally absorbed i got to get some always discreet now to iowa are todays annual state fair is overrun with president ial contenders hoping to make a personal connection ahead of the Iowa Caucuses just five months away now. Donald trump and ron desantis are among the candidates campaigning there today. That is where we find nbc news is ali vitali whos joining me now. Hello, my friend. What are you seeing and hearing so far . Alex, welcome back to the iowa state fair. Its almost like we never left if you look around me, you are seeing that there are a lot of people doing rides, doing all the things you typically do it to stay fair. Just a few feet from where im standing, you are seeing candidates try to work the crowd here. Look, you talk to voters here, this is a state where it depends summers squarely on the camp of former president , donald trump. He will be making an appearance. Storming through the state fair. Today also folks who are saying that they would do not want to put him back in the white house. Listen to the range of opinions we have heard so far. Mike pence have the choice to send the votes back to the state, which is the choice that we shouldve made. He said that he couldnt do it. He didnt do it recount after recount showed, it. Mr. Of been a republican iowa live. I agree with some of trumps policies. The guy did not belong back in the white house. Im sorry. I am one of the ones that are gonna keep him out of there. Unfortunately, you are not keeping weather. Ive never voted for a democrat in my life. I had one last. Im about to provide. And he is in there. People like me youre gonna be the ones that are gonna keep trump out. Nna keep before we can get back to biden versus trump, you first have to get through the republican primary. That is what other candidates are duking it out for today. Even though we are hearing a range of opinions from voters. It hasnt changed very much. Trump is still the dominant force here despite the fact that he is dogged by three indictments likely a forthcoming. Does not mean hes not playing offense. If you look at one of the guy behind you, it might end up seeing a plane that is be likable. Ron i have to point out there is also an Exclamation Point at the end of that. Akin to like what we saw in jim bushs 2016 slogan. He was a typical favorite target of donald trump than before he became the nominee of the party in that cycle. Even though desantis is still far behind him in second place, he is here with a message for his chief rival as desantis himself works the crowd. In tow he will be bringing some florida lawmakers. Yet another troll around santas. Certainly seems to be something between the two of them. That sound by you played, off the cuffs on. By that, to me, briefly demonstrated what Mark Mckinnon wrote about in vanity fair. The ghost voters. That just hit home. According to Mark Mckinnon, there will be a lot more of those and we suspected this time. We will see, with your help, thank, you ali. Heartbreak in paradise. The death toll around why as wildfires climbed higher with a jawdropping estimate of what is going to cost to rebuild parts of maui. Versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. Boost® high protein. Now available in cinnabon® bakeryinspired flavor. Learn more at boost. Com tv christina wanna know the secret ingredient to running my business . Now available in cinnabon® bakeryinspired flavor. tina her. christina being all over, all at once. tina all the time. christina but my old network wasnt cutting it. And thats not good for baking. Or judging. Or writing. So, we switched to verizon, the Network Businesses rely on. With Verizon Business unlimited, i get 5g, truly unlimited data, and unlimited hotspot data. So, no matter what, im running this kitchen. vo make the switch. Its your business. Its your verizon. To 50 years with my best friend. Breaking news. [sfx gasp] [sfx spilling sound] nooo. Aya. Quick, the quicker picker upper bounty absorbs spills like a sponge. And is 2x more absorbent so you can use less. Bounty, the quicker picker upper. A new and challenging day for residents of maui. Many are getting their first glimpse of the devastation left by the wildfires. That tragedy is poised to be the deadliest Wildfire Event in u. S. History. The death toll already reaching 80, and likely decline. Even with the Flames Extinguisher contained, danger still persist. Officials warn that harmful contaminants may be in the lahaina water system. Highly toxic Dust Particles could make the air dangerous to inhale. Meanwhile, hawaiis Attorney General is conducting a review of the decisionmaking in policy making up to and including those wildfires. Fema now says it will cost more than five and a half billion dollars to rebuild from this disaster. Even now, residents and officials in maui are still coming to grips with the scale of destruction in desperation. We want to reunite families. We want to get information, whether their Family Members are at a shelter or whether they are among those who have perished. We hear them crying, theyre two, their jesper please. It is real, it is very real. This is gonna take years and years to recover. Im joined now by jeremy greenberg, director of the Operations Division at fema. While, jeremy. There is so much on your plate. What is your agencys biggest challenge right now . Good afternoon. Thank you for having us on. Fema is working, right now, with the state of hawaii. Focus primarily on our Search And Rescue operations. The lifesaving mission of ensuring that everyone has a shelter to live in, has water they can eat, and they can breathe clean air. We will also work with our State Partners to ensure that this Recovery Operation, which is expected to be prolonged, is jumpstarted to get people back to a sense of normalcy. How concerned are you about those environmental dangers that still persist . You mentioned the water, you mentioned the air, how effective can your efforts be in trying to help these residents . Fema and all federal inter Agency Partners are bringing every resource at the state of why needs. That includes temporary water for those in areas that are still contaminated. As well as other capability to make sure the state of why he had everything that is needed as the citizens work through the devastating effects of the wildfire. Now we, is . More than 2000 miles from mainland u. S. How difficult does that make it to deliver relief . It seems like that would be an added component that you have got to deal with. Certainly what the distance is a little bit of a challenge. However, fema has a permanent presence in the state of hawaii. We have a distribution center. We have an office. Immediately, as the fire started, our teams are in coordination with why officials to figure out what resources might be needed. From that point, we started deploying resources from the islands in around hawaii, as well as the mainland states. We have had over 150 female employees arriving, the fema administrator the u. S. Firemen straighter air all in the white day working with State Officials to figure out what else the federal government can bring to assist the citizens impacted by this. Jeremy, what started this fire . Was there any conceivable notion that it could blow up the way that it did . There was our dry fire conditions forecasted and why, which is always a risk that we face. Which is why it is critically important for people in hawaii, and everywhere, to fire the guidance of local officials. Make sure they are prepared with disaster information. Make sure they have their alerts turned on. Download the fema. Make sure the settings on your phone or set for highs, fiercely during the evening hours. Take the Preparedness Actions very seriously in case of these types of disasters that may form very quickly. I know you spent times, years in fact, as a volunteer firefighter. Can you explain how quickly these flames moved . Have you seen anything like that, ever . If the flames were so enormous, how fast must have gone through there that they couldnt get out of the way . As you can see from the pictures, this was an amazingly devastating fire. We talk about these types of fires moving as quickly as the length of a Football Field in 20 seconds or less. Fueled by heavy winds in the area. It is extraordinarily difficult fire it moves, very, very quickly. That is why we encourage everyone to make sure they are prepared for an immediate evacuation. That they have a it and theyre listening to the guidance of local officials. I had not heard that, jeremy. 20 seconds to go the length of a Football Field. Thank you very much we will have to sit with that for a while. Jimmy greenberg thank you so much good luck to you in all the efforts. In the meantime the new one unusual request from Donald Trumps legal team and weather could create a National Security risk, thats next. Just sinex, breathe, ahhhh [sniffs] what is wow baby daddy. Sinex. Breathe. Ahhhhhh im kareem abdul jabbar. I was diagnosed with afib. The first inkling that something was wrong was i started to notice that i couldnt do things without losing my breath. I couldnt make it through the airport, and every like 20 or 30 yards i had to sit down and get my breath. Every Physical Exertion seemed to exhaust me. And finally, i went to the hospital where i was diagnosed with afib. When i first noticed symptoms, which kept coming and going, i should have gone to the doctor and told them what was happening. Instead, i tried to let it pass. 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Well, republicans are coming out swinging after Attorney General merrick garlands decision to appoint david weiss as Special Counsel in the hunter biden case. House Oversight Committee chairman, james comer, calls the move, part of the Justice Departments efforts to attempt a biden family cover up. Speaker Kevin Mccarthy tweeted, weiss negotiated that Sweetheart Deal that couldnt get him approved. How can he be trusted that his Special Counsel . Republicans will continue to pursue the facts. Joining me now, democratic Congressman Jake Up in class of massachusetts, who i know, at some point grinning during what i was quoting there from his republicans. Welcome, congressman. Tell me what are republicans complaining about . Is it the appointment of an independent investigator exactly what your colleagues wanted . And could or should disappointment take the case out of the political realm . Hi, alex. Its nice to be back on. Not just an independent investigator, but, also one who was originally pointed by donald trump. Its the republicans conveniently forget when they attack him and attempt to politicize this independent investigation. Lets be very clear here. If hunter biden broke lost, Hundred Biden should be accountable. Being the son of a president doesnt make you above the law, and but Department Of Justice has never said otherwise. That same principle applies to the former president of the United States, who has been indicted now for conspiring against the American People and trying to overturn the very constitution he was sworn to preserve, protect, and defend. And i would encourage americans in both situations to recognize that this is not about trump show. This is not the biden show. The protagonist in this is the rule of law. Its the Core American Principle that nobody is above it, and we pursue equal justice in this country for all people. So, lets pick up on that and talk about i rather interesting request from Donald Trumps attorneys this week. You know they are asking a federal judge to allow a secure facility. Its known as a scif, or they can discuss classified documents in the maralago case. , now the proposed location . Inside maralago. That is precisely what the alleged crimes took place. What is your reaction to their solution to keep the nations National Security secrets safe . Its amazing how concern donald trump is now about classification hygiene, as opposed to previously. You may have had them in the bathroom at maralago. This is just a delay tactic. If my presumption is, it really underscores how out of step Donald Trumps with core american National Security and Foreign Policy principles. He does not have regard for how this country orients itself for military readiness, and indeed, for how we engage with our allies and our adversaries. And example number one is russian and ukraine. At this point, let impotent has a Tutor Strategy for his war. Trump wins. If trump wins in 24, which i have to underscore, is very much a possibility. We cannot be complacent. He is going to cut and run from ukraine, and Vladimir Putin will have ceased victory from the jaws of defeat. Point well taken there. But on the topic of what the former Trump White House press secretary, Stephanie Grisham told me recently. This is what she said about her experience, personally, with the former president. Take a listen. I watched him show documents to people at maralago on the dining room patio. So, he has no respect for Classified Information. He never did. Are you at all confident that trumps Legal Counsel can ensure there are no further risks of National Security leaks . No. Of course not. And i would actually go a step further. Its not that donald trump has no respect for just classified documents, donald trump is no respect for the rule of law. Over his 15 year career in a private and public sectors, it has been one long conspiracy against the law, one long trail of litigation to try to avoid accountability from the law. And finally, the buck needs to stop, and we need to hold him accountable in front of the American People for conspiring against the United States constitution. Let me ask you to switch topics quickly. Many of your democratic colleagues are calling for Supreme Court Justice Clarence thomas to step down after the new reporting from propublica revealing that billionaires gifted Justice Thomas dozens of Destination Vacations and private jet rides, vip passes to sporting events, stays at luxury resorts in the light. Then our Credit Congressmen tend loose as Justice Thomas alleged actions are not just shocking, theyre illegal, and is calling for him to resign immediately. He is also part of a group of democrats calling on the Attorney General to launch a federal ethics investigation. Do you agree . If there were Supreme Court Code Of Ethics, its almost certain that what Clarence Thomas did would have been contrary to them. It just underscores why we need that Code Of Ethics at the highest court in the land. Congress has won. The Executive Branch has won. Americans expect answers that theyre Supreme Court justices are able to hold themselves to a High Standard as well. Clares thomas as a lot to answer for. And his actions have diminished the trust and credibility that americans have in the Supreme Court. Also, to me, furthers the argument for term limits on Supreme Court justices, which should be 18 years, after, which they can rotate off that bench to other federal courts. All right. Massachusetts congressman jake auchincloss, good to see you again, thanks for the chat. Why one of my next guest says nobody should be surprised by what happened in utah this past week. Is pas week when migraine strikes, youre faced with a choice. Ride it out with the tradeoffs of treating . 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The fbi seeking to arrest Craig Robertson after he posted messages threatening to kill President Biden and other democrats. Authorities telling Nbc News Robertson pointed a gun at agents and did not respond to commands. Joining me now, Fred Figliuzzi former fbi assistant director for Counter Intelligence and msnbc National Security analyst. And miles terror, former department of Homeland Security Chief Of Staff and author of the remarkable book, blowback, a warning to save democracy from the next trump. Guys, its good to see you. Im going to start with you, frank. A new Trump Campaign ad takes aim at some of his political enemies. Heres a look at that. Were not going to play the sound. But were going to Start Playing it here, and you wrote that nobody should be surprised by what happened in utah. But you would be surprised if we dont see more violent threats from rightwing extremists against officials. Why do you say that . Yeah, in fact, alex, i said that if you remember back and after 9 11, we had this color coded threat level system that many people have been confusing and ultimately went away. But if we still have that in place, with regard to domestic threat, we would be moving from yellow to orange to likely threat occurring. And all of the markers are there. You referenced trump now elevating attacks on the people prosecuting him. Judges, witnesses, this is coming. Its already in the works, and when you look at extremist websites, chat rooms, you see the rhetoric. Particularly even against a potential witness, mike pence, who some corners of the dark web is targeted for being hung again, if we needed to see that again. So its likely more of this. And what is troubling here is the domestic threat looks really likely International Terrorism threat, which means people have lost their Self Preservation Instincts and are willing to die for a cause. A recent survey back in june showed that at least 12 million americans are okay with violence to put trump back into office. So, in that environment, weve got a real challenge up ahead as we try to secure court houses, judges, witnesses, jurors, at segura. Im going to ask you more about that in the second. Heres whats interesting, frank. Trumps truth social platform tipped off the fbi to robertsons threats. That was in march. His truth social, first of, all allowing inflammatory engaged in discourse, and alerting Law Enforcement . Does that even make sense to you . Yeah, i mean, look. When you are, if theres anything we can kind of tongue in cheek joke about here, and we shouldnt, because its a deadly environment, but when youre too extreme for truth social, your extreme. And yes, they now understand the liability that trump is presenting to them. People have lost money, namely fox news, 700 million, to dominion for allowing that things to happen on the air. So, platforms are ready and theres been reports that theres been a distancing of trump, regarding failure to pay what he owes to keep the platform up and running. So, they are not happy with him. There are certainly wanting to avoid the liability of allowing absolute violence. This guy crossed the line. I mean, prosecutors looked at his postings and said yeah, this isnt even questionable. Weve got three federal charges here. And that was the fbi agents are trying to do. Execute an Arrest Warrant for three separate federal charges. No brainer charges. When this guy reached for a weapon, reportedly, according to nbc news and others, and swung in towards an fbi agents. You know miles, you received Death Threats after it was revealed he was the author of an anonymous New York Times oped on trump and the white house. Talk about the physical danger that you and others had to face . Well, its very real, alex, i mean, its easy enough for, you know, folks like frank and i to come on tv and talk about how this is a Homeland Security threat. But this is real. And its affecting peoples real lives. I mean, theres a reason, alex, that i often do these tv hits from nondescript locations. Just because people like frank, who i you know, folks like that that i served alongside within federal Law Enforcement, have suggested that even, given the climate, that we need to keep our locations nondescript. Because of the threats of Political Violence. I mean, as recently, alex as lost night. There was a slew of messages towards me, urging me to kill myself, because of my commentary about the ex president. Again, my wife for dealing with this last night. No one has to play the violin for us, but its an indicator of how severe the environment has gotten. In, fact, alex i would go as far as to say i do think right now, the biggest Homeland Security threat to the United States is Political Violence. Because one of these episodes like this Assassination Plot against joe biden could rip our nation apart foundationally, and we are, as frank noted, seeing a surge in threats against Public Servants in the United States. Its unlike anything weve seen since 9 11. Americas political leaders arent just being pounded, they are being hunted. Ill share it with viewers that i spoke with both in the commercial break, and i was stunned at the chronicling of what you had to go through for the safety that youre right about in your book. It was scary. Downright scary. And frankly, rightwing extremists, also scary. They are comparing moderates to ashli babbitt, who was fatally shot while storming the capitol on january 6th. That would became a farright murder, and some Claim Robertson was killed for his conservative views. Heres the question. Does the fbi view these threats as conservative views or as an illegal danger . And thus the fbi count for farright reaction when investigating cases like this . Do they have to put that into consideration . Yeah, theres always a balancing, alex, it has to occur between free speech and criminality. Right . So, the standard protocol which, was followed here, is the first reach out to the person, even though they clearly crossed the criminal statute line and requirements. The specificity, at the time target. Location, and method that theyre going to kill someone. He did all of that, repeatedly, online. But they still approached him in the spring and said hey, whats up with these threats . Whats going . On and he blew them off and said hey, were done here. You come back only with a warrant. And of course, they did. Ultimately, just hours before President Biden was scared for land in utah, and this guy was not only threatening agents in the only the manhattan d. A. , alvin bragg, and others, but also, of course, specifically saying he was dusting off his sniper rifle for biden. So, they tried. When they hit the house in the morning, he turned into a barricade. They tried negotiating. He refused commands. But yeah, you know, they dont look at it politically. They look at whether the criminal line has been crossed, and they go to a federal prosecutor and say look, do we have it . Do we not have . It thats the only thing they are looking for here. Something quickly that you broke, miles, in the recent oped. You said our democracy, the threat to, it isnt trump or the next trump. But the transformation of the gop base into a reactionary angry mob. Its not the way you see it . I do, alex. We are sitting right now on a ticking time bomb of Political Violence in this country. A lot of it coming from the far right. What worries me is i live inside of the state of all the time, and the data shows that its not just reactionary political leaders like trump implementing violence. That their views have now been transmitted onto the base. You have these very favorable attitudes towards Political Violence, unlike anything weve seen in the modern era. I worry about what that means for us as a country, especially as were going into 2024. And you can bet your Bottom Dollar that right now, its the top concern that federal Law Enforcement, when it comes to Homeland Security. What a sobering discussion, you guys. Thank you very much, miles and frank. Good to see you. In just a few minutes,