That visceral experience is thought something anyone forgets. So, you know, keep at it, republicans. Thank you, my friend. And thanks to you at home for joining us this evening. So Donald Trumps fourth criminal indictment, number four, appears to be days away. Nbc news is now reporting that Fulton CountyDistrict Attorney fani willis is expected to present her case to the grand jury next week. And we know that d. A. Willis has been investigating trumps efforts toti overturn the 2020 election in georgia, and her investigation appears to have quite a bit in common with the federal case being brought by special counsel jack smith in washington, d. C. But the case in georgia may prove to be different from jack myths case in one very meaningful way. That, we need and to go back to 1979 when the City Of Atlanta was experiencing an unprecedented wave of crime. Here was nbc nightly news in august of that year. During the First Six Months of this year crime in atlanta was up 30 . Robbery and aggravated assault were up 70 , and murder was up, too. Atlanta has had 140 homicides, the highest total since 1973. So that was the way the National Media was talking about the City Of Atlanta as the decade closed out in 1979. Here was the headline in the New York Times that very same month. Atlanta fearing for National Reputation mounts urgent fight on crime. That same year the georgia governor sent State Troopers to atlanta after a Wall Street Journal Story suggested that citys crime wave might undermine attempts to draw business to the state. And so State Lawmakers started Passing Toughrs and often very harsh new policies to try and crack down on crime. The next year in 1980 georgia lawmakers decided that one of the ways they could deal with a rise in crime was to adopt a new rico statute. You may have heard the phrase. It refers to the corrupt organizations act, rico. Its a federal law the Department Of Justice use said to go after organized crime. During the 1980s a young u. S. Attorney by the name of Rudy Giuliani was making a b name fo Himself Prosecuting Mafia Members Under Federal Rico laws. Put a pin in that one because were going to come back to rudy and rico Just A Little Bit later. Anyway, down in georgia the rico statute that State Lawmakers were crafting was different than the one giuliani was using to go after mafia dons. Norm i. D. sen the legal scholar told New Yorker Georgia created the rico statute in 1980. At the time georgias predominantly white state Assembly Said it needed the new rico law to address the Increasingth Sophistication of various criminal elements. The increasing sophistication. And so the Georgia Legislature made their rico laws even tougher than the ones the feds were using. They have to show that person is part of a large Criminal Organization that has usually been around for some time. But the Georgia Rico Law is much broader. Prosecutors in georgia dont have to show that someone is part of a large criminal operation. The georgia definition of Criminal Enterprise can encompass a wide range of illegalwi acts to further a sine criminal goal. And that Georgia Rico Law, the one dreamed up by the Tough On Crime Georgia Boys of the legislature, that is the law which d. A. Fani willis now has her disposal to prosecute donald trump and his allies. To prosecute them in a way that no federal prosecutor can, not even special counsel jack smith. Now, we dont know what if any changes or charges d. A. Willis is planning to in her case, but we do have some hints. For instance back at the start of this investigation, d. A. Willis brought in some help. Some help from A Man Named John Floyd who is considered an expert in georgias rico law. She brought in the rico guy so theres that. D. A. Willis has also publicly professed her preference for charging people under rico statutes. Here she was in a Press Conference last year speaking about an unrelated case. Im a fan of rico. Ive told people that. And the reason im a fan of rico is i think jurors are very, very intelligent. They want to know the whole story. They want to know what happened. They want to make an accurate decision about someones life. So rico is a tool that allows a Prosecutors Office and Law Enforcement to tell the whole story. I am a fan of rico. Rico is a tool that allows a Prosecutors Office and Law Enforcement to tell the whole story. Okay now. And it should be noted over the course of her career d. A. Willis has made use of Georgia Rico Laws time and time again. She used rico laws to prosecute atlanta teachers who rigged standardized scores. She used rico to prosecute Hip Hop Artist young thug and associates for their involvement in murder and drug dealing. Shes used rico law in all sorts of way you might not normally think of as racketeering, which begs the question if this Georgia Statute is broad enough to charge all of those different people, what is stopping her from using it against a former president and his allies . Joining me now is michael moore, former u. S. Attorney for the middle district of georgia. Michael, always great to see you. I have many georgia related legal questions. Okay. The first of which is do you think it is a stretch for d. A. Willis to potentially prosecute the former president on Racketeering Charges . Well, im glad to be with you. Its a unique pousture to put the case in. Rico itself you think of a corrupt organization. Well have to see in a forthcoming indictment how she identifies the Trump Campaign or the Republican Party or the state gop. Are we going to now call that sort of en masse a corrupt organization . Soen that will be a different u for the law itself. She can talk about all the dirty laundry and not just maybe the former president s pair of socks or something. She can actually talk about some things other people did and how it tied into this sort of grand scheme for use of various crimes to violate the rico statute, so she can talk about that without having to necessarily charge each individual count. It just lets her talk about, i guess shes almost able to give the jury a whole book as opposed to simply a chapter or a few sentences out of the book and she can talk about the beginnina and the middle and the end and the plot and all the twists and how that plays into her proof of what we call Predicate Acts that would be necessary for her to prove under the statute. So its a unique way to do it. It is generally considered a gift, almost like a conspiracy count for a prosecutor. Its something that it is a gift as you move forward, and well see if she uses it in this case. Yeah, it sounds like its a big bucket for lacke of a more artful term. It she can its not just the call from trump to secretary of state brad raffensperger, its the fake electors plot in georgia, the tampering with Voting Machines in coffey county. Fe its the dismissal of u. S. Attorney d. J. Pock. You just hinted at this in your previous answer, but i would assume the indictment when it comes down is going to be quite illustrative. The special purpose grand jury, that was a very short document. I would assume this Grand Jury Indictment would be something a little more meteor. Is that accurate . I think it likely will. In georgia a criminal indictment in a state court and thats what were talking about, doesnt have to be a long narrative. It can simply list out the offenses the state intends to prove. But i think in this case because of the nature of the case youll see more of a speaking indictment. Also asea she talks more about these Predicate Acts and how theyre approve, conspiracy i think well see as well, shes going to want to go into some detail. You might think of the rico statute like this, too. Its a bit like the twine that pulls and ties the package together. And so she can put it all in the rapid paper, wrap it up in the statute that has a single gift if you will to give the jury. Theres dangers to having a detailed indictment. There could be challenges when there are errors in them and also sets forth the things a prosecutor has toal prove. The danger in having a very detailed indictment is that a Defense Attorney may be able to find one little thing that wasnt quite right and pullon it like a thread and start to unravel the case. And once you create some doubt in a jurors mind, its often hard to go back. So thats why oftentimes you see more abbreviated indictments in cases like you would find in a federal court with thisou or in the state court system. But this is a unique case, and i think shell want to spell out what she was thinking and how sheas arrived ultimately with t charges shes asking the grand jury to consider. We noticed she brought in the rico guy, the guy in georgia known as the rico expert. Thats a man generally named as john floyd. Have you heard tell of john floyd . Is he a known character in Georgiaow Law . And what can you tell us about his skills in terms of rico and painting that narrative going to be so essential to her making the case at least in the court of Public Opinion . I p know john. Hes a good friend. I think hes a good lawyer, certainly a competent lawyer with a very good firm, and im not surprised to seher bring him in and s use him in this way in her investigation. Shes used him before in a rico case, and he is known for being sort of a scholar when it comes to rico charges especially when usedal maybe a bit creatively b prosecutors. Shes put together a good team, a strong team, and were just now sort of trying the team out on thef field, i guess. And well see how things play out once an indictment comes down, which now i think basically is a forgone conclusion. Either that or weve got a lot of Traffic Delays and disruptions around the courthouse because of security. Certainly involving several defendants rollout fairly quickly. Speaking of security, trump has been already directing quite a bit of vitreal towards d. A. Willis. Theres a new ad hes taken out. And bidens newest lackey atlanta d. A. Fani willis, so incompetent on her watch Violent Crimes have exploded. So we can expect more of that i am sure. And i would wonder given all the back and forth over protective order in the federal case in and around trumps efforts to subvert Democracy On January 6th do you think theres going to be a similar battle to protect the discovery of evidence to just effectively curb trumps impulses to target witnesses, prosecutors, judges . I mean how is that going to work out in atlanta . Well, his mouth has been his biggest enemy. You may as well just be pouring gasoline in the engine of the Prosecutors Office in a case like that to run that kind of nonsense out. Its silly. Prosecutors expect it, they expect to be called silly names and it fires them up. It also sometimes causes courts and other things to circle around and protect folks as well. And just think it was a dumb move, and thats the kindest word i can think of to say about it right now. I think he has shown a pattern and his team has shown a pattern of trying to intimidate witnesses. That may very well be an added progression on the b rico statu. If he continues that kind of conduct, you may see a follow up indictment. But we are balancing here the rights of the defendant, a punitive defendant at this point, but a criminal defendant to have a access to information to be able to look at the criminal discovery, to be able to have the documents to be used against him in court, have what the witnesses say and identity of those witnesses and what they expect to testify to, what they testified to in the past, and so a defendant does have those rights, and you couple that with this sort of unique posture were in a plittle season. At the same time trump is attacking and his team is attacking the prosecutors, youve got maybe his republican opponents and rivals who want to take his old job. Theyre attacking him now. Theyre suddenly growing a backbone after several years. Bo they want to come out now and take a shot at it. Youve got the current president who if trump is a nominee is going to be running in a campaign against trump. So hes going to have ads out there. So therell have to be a balancing of trumps right to campaign,mp his right to free speech, his right to political speech, his right to respond to attacks and attack ads that i guess are in the political season. But when you cross over that place where you start the things that jeopardize the safety of th witnesses, that becomes criminal. I dont think the judges down here are going to take kindly to it. I think that ad is definitely over the lineha and we havent even gotten an indictment yet. Michael moore, former u. S. Attorney for the middle district of georgia, always good to see you, sir. Thanks for your time tonight. Always a pleasure. We have lots more ahead tonight including why jack smith may be interested in trumps twitter account. And as prosecutors ask a judge to limit what trump can say publicly about his legal peril, the heavily armed man in utah made threats against prosecutors and political figures, and President Biden is shocked and killed by the fbi. Were going to talk about that next. Stay with us. Were going to talk about that next stay with us goli, taste your goals. So President Biden is in Salt Lake City tonight. Its the final stop of a threestate tour, and it also happens to be bidens first trip to utah since he became president , and early this morning about 45 miles south of Salt Lake City in provo the fbi shot and killed and man who allegedly made numerous violent threats against President Biden and other democratic politicians and public figures. Now, the fbi was attempting to serve Search Warrants and an Arrest Warrant to a suspect identified in charging documents as a man named Craig Robertson who posted these threats to social media. Robertson referenced bidens visit to utah today and said he needed to prepare his gillie suit and sniper rifle. This if you did not know is what a gillie suit looks like. As part of the fbis Investigation Into Robertson which began in march of this year, the agency says it reviewed numerous posts in which robertson threatened violence against government officials. Robertsons alleged threat to manhattan d. A. Alvin bragg called him a political hack linked to george soros and then in gruesome detail it described a plan to assassinate him in a parking garage. He targeted attorney general Letitia James and california governor gavin newsom. Joining me now is frank figliuzzi, former assistant director for Counter Intelligence and Msnbc National Security analyst. Frank, thanks so much for being here. I first i want to get your thoughts. Lets first talk about the mention of soros in here. You saw this a lot in rightwing conspiracy circles. To state the obvious, can you talk about the linkage between whats happening there and how that seating, the most violent corners of the universe and folks like apparently this alleged wouldbe assassin . Sure, if you think youve seen this before its because youfbl. And its a common theme this concept that someone is controlling the globe, controlling elections and politics, and its all bad. Theyre vile. Theyre subhuman, and its also something called stochastic terrorism, which is this concept that some Leader Figure is calling out people as less than human, dehumanizing him, theyre evil, and therefore it becomes much easier for people to respond to that kind of ideology and act out violently. We certainly saw it in large numbers, a thousand arrested already at january 6th. We saw people willing to die including Ashley Babbitt who consumed these trump legal theories wrapped in a Trump Campaign flag as shes Breaching Security at the capitol. We saw it in cincinnati where a man breached security or tried to at a cincinnati field office, ended up dying in a cornfield after hours of standoff. And im afraid this is not any way the end of this but rath