Transcripts For MSNBCW The 20240704

Thank, you alex. I want to begin tonight with a special word to and about don trumps criminal defenders, all of whom are offered a Standing Invitation to appear on this program at anytime. All of Donald Trumps Defense Lawyers have failed more spectacularly in the representation of donald trump than anything they have ever done in their professional lives because they have all failed at the most basic task, the first task, of a Criminal Defense Lawyer, which is to control your client. Donald trump is Out Of Control, spewing poisonous hateful, racist, sexist lies about the prosecutors and judges who are involved in the cases, the criminal cases against him. Or, as in fani williss case, still investigating him. And every one of Donald Trumps criminal Defense Lawyers knows that every poisoned, filthy word donald trump has said about the prosecutors, every one of those words is a pathological lie. And not one of those criminal Defense Lawyers has the professional dignity or Human Decency to disassociate himself from Donald Trumps vicious, hateful lies about prosecutors who those criminal Defense Lawyers know have all conducted themselves perfectly honorably. Donald trumps criminal Defense Lawyers live in abject fear of donald trump, abject fear, and you can see that fear on their faces when they are confronted with Donald Trumps poison. Deranged jack smith. Hes a deranged human being. Look at that face. You say that guy is a sick man. Theres something wrong with him. Do you believe hes deranged . President biden, in april 2022, said he wanted President Trump prosecuted and he wanted him out of the race. He repeated that in november of 2022. You could see the fear on that face when he was trying to think up what to say other than the simple wordno. it was a simple question. Do you believe hes arranged . The simple answer is no. John lauro does not believe jack smith is deranged. He knows that jack smith is one of the most honorable dedicated prosecutors in the history of the Justice Department, the department where john laurel used to work. John laurel could have just said no. As most lawyers would, to that question. In a situation like that, if a defendant publicly insulted a prosecutor, any decent Criminal Defense Lawyer would simply say no to that question, and the interview would move on. It doesnt harm the clients position in any way. But john was afraid. Terrified of the word no. And you could see that on his face. As he tried to struggle to think of an answer. He gave no answer. He just rambled. You could see, in those seconds, the terror of the possibility of him publicly daring to disagree with a Pathological Liar who he defends, and so john went off into a lying ramble instead of having this simple professional decency to disassociate himself from his clients lies about the prosecutor. When you defend a Pathological Liar, the filth of the pathological lies is going to get all over you. It is going to cover you. You will not be the same after defending every word a Pathological Liar says. And so the only things donald trump criminal Defense Lawyers have demonstrated so fires are complete failure to control their client, fear of their client, and absolutely no shame whatsoever. Associating themselves with the lies Donald Trump Tells about prosecutors and judges. Yesterday in New Hampshire don trump went after Fulton County District Attorney fani willis it is most vial way yet. He has already gone full racist on fani willis because she is a black woman. John lauro chose to join trumps criminal defense team after donald trump repeatedly, publicly expressed his racism against fani willis, john lauro is the newest member of don trumps criminal defense team, and he joined that team after watching donald trump spew his racism against a black prosecutor in manhattan and a black prosecutor in atlanta. Im gonna show you now just a bit. I cant show you all of it because its too vulgar, too pornographic. Just a bit of what donald trump said yesterday about fani willis. They say theres a young woman, a young racist in atlanta, i say racist, and they say, i guess, they say that im not gonna show you the rest of the pornographic poison that donald trump spewed, but the full support with the full support of his lawyers. He seems to be referring to fani williss work as a Criminal Defense Attorney and a defendant she everything he said about fani willis came from the deeply Perverted Cesspool of Donald Trumps sick imagination. And he happily and perversely lied about District Attorney fani williss relationship with a former client. Donald trump has very boastfully had sexual relationships with many more people than his three wives, including during all of his marriages, and so a deeply twisted decaying mind filled with a lifetime of memories of adultery reaches into the mud of his own lived experience and throws it at other people. And not one of Donald Trumps criminal Defense Lawyers has any problem being associated with Donald Trumps lying about District Attorney fani willis. Not one of them. There is another option. I quit. Any of don trumps criminal Defense Lawyers can say that any day, and some of them have, but none of them have ever quit because hes racist. They can say that i can ever explain to my grandchildren or to history why i remain associated with an Out Of Control sick perverted racist. As of tonight, every one of Donald Trumps criminal Defense Lawyers is too cowardly to quit. And much too cowardly to tell donald trump to shut up. And a cowardly Criminal Defense Lawyer is a failure as a Criminal Defense Lawyer. It takes a beautiful shimmering audacity to be a great and noble Criminal Defense Lawyer. When they announced the sides in a federal criminal trial, the United States of america versus john doe, the person representing john doe against all the prosecutorial might of United States of america better to be strong, better to be brave, brave enough to stand up against the prosecutorial strength of the United States of america and brave enough to stand up to a cowardly Pathological Liar like donald trump. When we will have more about District Attorney fani willis is possible prosecution of donald trump later in this hour when her friend, former prosecutor glenn, will join us. Including fani williss response to Donald Trumps new lying attack against her. She sent an email to her staff, guiding her staff about how not to respond to anything. Less later this, hour we were dealing with the breaking news in the newest prosecution of donald trump and washington, d. C. , that was about howard law professor Laurence Tribe reveal last night, special Prosecutor Jack Smith has obtained a december six 2020 memo that the january Six Committee did not discover. That socalled legal memo, written by a former student of Professor Tribes, now appears to be one of a sequence of memos that contained the origin of what jack smith is calling a criminal conspiracy to defraud, United States in a conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding. 23 years ago, Professor Tribe worked as an appeals lawyer for Vice President al gore in the Historic Supreme Court case of bush versus gore, which ended up deciding the president ial election of the year 2000. Kenneth chesebro was one of the Research Assistants at Harvard Law School helping Professor Tribe prepare the case. In a series of moments written by chesebro beginning on november 18th, he advocated what was now seen as the fake electors scheme identified by jack smith indictment of donald trump. In the first version of the memo, chesebro advocated creating republican electors in states won by joe biden just in case donald trump was somehow miraculously successful in lawsuits in those states and managed to get Court Rulings that would somehow magically reverse the outcome of the election. Mr. Chesebros argument was that the Trump Campaign had better be ready with named republican electors whose votes could be counted on january six, if donald trump managed to win his legal challenges mounted in court in those states. But the newlyrevealed december six memo shows that mr. Chesebro changed his strategy to simply try to obstruct the account of the electoral votes on january he quoted Professor Tribe to support the legitimacy of his argument. In december six, 2020 memo, mr. Chesebro writes, i believe what can be achieved on january six is not simply to keep biden below 270 electoral votes, it seems feasible that the vote count can be conducted so that at no point will trump be behind in the electoral vote count unless and until biden can obtain a favorable decision from the Supreme Court upholding the electoral count act as constitutional or otherwise recognizing the power of congress or not the president of the senate to count the votes. Thats a memo said it was all up to mike pence, quote, Vice President pence presiding over the joint session takes the position that it is his constitutional power duty alone as president of the senate to both open and count the votes and that anything in the electoral count act to the contrary is unconstitutional. Chesebro admits that what he calls a bold controversial strategy would not be supported by the Supreme Court. But he says it would, quote, by the Trump Campaign more time to win litigation that would deprive biden of electoral votes and or add to trumps in the memo chesebro cites his former Professor Tribe is having once written that the only real deadline for a state to complete, any state to complete the count of electoral votes of a president ial election is, quote, before congresss parents to count the votes on january 6th. As Professor Tribe explained here, last night, in our Breaking News Environment, he did, in a Harvard Law Review, point out of the state of florida, specifically that one state of florida, does not have a lot of it specifies when the electoral votes must be counted in florida. In a Harvard Law Review article that mr. Chesebro mischaracterized, Professor Tribe wrote, you can read the florida statutes, which deal with president ial and gubernatorial elections in the same set of provisions, backwards and forwards, without finding even the slightest clue and State Legislature ever decided that all recounts in a contested president ial election must start by December 12th or for that matter at anytime before the electors meet to give their votes on December 18th or even before Congress Starts to count the votes on january 6th. Leading off our discussion tonight, professor Laurence Tribe, who has taught Constitutional Law at Harvard Law School for five decades. Professor tribe, thank you very much for joining us tonight. This story continued to gain its steam today and when since we dealt with it in the Breaking News Environment i want to make sure your fully understood and heard on this, because this is gonna be ongoing evidence on his case. It might provide testimony at the trial about these very memos that quote you. What should the audience understand about this to have a full grasp of it . I think the audience should understand that ken chesebro was part of the team helping me argue in florida and in the u. S. Supreme court back in 2020 that there was no justification for throwing away the ballots that hadnt been recounted yet on dec 12 because under the peculiar laws of florida the count could go on. The whole point was that every vote must be counted, must be counted accurately, and if there is a recount you cant simply toss votes away. That had nothing to do with the idea that you can violate the electoral count act or its deadlines or that you can have fake electoral slates. None of the crazy intellectual acrobatics that ken chesebros series of memos and emails advocated bears any resemblance to anything i have ever said or thought in my life. Its an example, just like your example of lawyers who are willing to sit by while their client spews hateful, dangerous, racist messages and say nothing. This is another form of evil lawyering, where you take your legal talents and you put them to work to create a blueprint to steal an election from the american people. Thats not a decent use of legal talent. And it is really a shame that ken chesebro, who was a Research Assistant of mine, as part of the same team at one point, in 1986, as really good people like elana kagan and barack obama. But somehow he managed to cross over to the dark side. He became pretty clear, as one reads the more elaborate memorandum of december 6th that was recently unveiled, that this guy is supersmart. I have always known that. But he doesnt have a conscience. It became clear that he was playing a four dimensional game, all kinds of blueprints, alternatives, ways of posturing things so that Justice Thomas, and he singled him out, Justice Thomas would have an opportunity as Circuit Justice for the circuit that includes the state of georgia, would have an opportunity to throw a Monkey Wrench into the works, to create a moment when the Vice President , whom he still hoped, Chesebro Still Hope that the Vice President would cave to the pressure of the president , he would then be able to take a clearly illegal move and tossed matters back to State Legislatures, which would then be able to, apparently, rip up the votes of their own voters and substitute electoral slates of their own. And in case they didnt do it on time, we would have counterfeit slates, ready and waiting. The whole thing is an extraordinary abuse of the lawyers function. Thats why mr. Chesebro is being investigated by various Bar Committees for possible disbarment. Thats why i imagine its likely that he will be indicted, probably by fani willis because georgia was gonna be one of the victims of the scheme that really he, even more than john eastman, engineered. Thats why he may well be separately indicted by jack smith, not necessarily the superseding indictment but a separate indictment of one or more of the coconspirators. Good example of what lawyers shouldnt ever do what we seee now that we ha the point youve ma t these story of the we had all been con on eastman, the attention, but starts with che what did it feel like for you when you finally saw this memo in which he surgically removes the last few words of a sentence you wrote there is about the state of florida and only about the state of florida. He surgically removes those words and applies them, in effect, by implication, to all 50 states. This obviously is not Harvard Law School practice. Youd be in big trouble doing that kind of thing on an exam or a paper. But how did you feel personally . This is someone who you taught and worked with, and you see this person doing this to your words . Frankly it was nauseating. It was infuriating. I felt a certain amount of pity for him because even though i suppose one can have some success in life with all brain and no heart, with intellect and no compass, no moral compass, no sense of reiter wrong, thats the kind of success i wouldnt wish on anybody. I hope this kid can, i think he and he, is now 60 but, he was a kid when i first met him. I hope he can sleep at night. I dont wish him ill. I just think he needs to be held to account. Because if people like this to make it possible for tyrants to use the forms of law to seize power and stay in power, if people like that arent head accountable, are not punished, are not imprisoned then there will be no deterrent to the next wave of kenneth chesebros, as an ex donald trump will be able to use someone like that to have a successful coup, and that will be the end of our democracy, the end of our freedom. Thats what this fellow is contributing to, and he really needs to be held accountable for it. Professor Laurence Tribe, thank you very much for starting off our discussions tonight. Thank you, lawrence. When we come back, today we learned from an unsealed Court Documents and special Prosecutor Jack Smith successfully subpoenaed Donald Trumps twitter account. That another Defendant Trump News is next with Andrew Weissmann and harry litman. And last for weeks. It can make your workday feel impossible. 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The District Court found probable cause to search the twitter account for evidence of criminal offenses. Moreover the District Court found the reasonable grounds to believe that disclosing the warrant to former President Trump would seriously jeopardize the Ongoing Investigation by giving him an opportunity to destroy evidence, change patterns of behavior, or notify confederates. The warrant required twitter to turn over all requested information by january 27th, 2023. A Nondisclosure Order was to remain in effect for 180 days after its issuance, despite the court order to comply, twitter violated the deadline for complying with handing over the twitter account and was fined 350,000 for that violation. During our discussion now, Andrew Weissmann, former chief of the Criminal Division of the Eastern District of new york. On him and msnbc legal analyst. Also Harry Lippman with us, former Deputy Assistant attorney general. He is a Senior Legal Affairs columnist for the los angeles times. Andrew weissmann, what is the objective that you imagine in trying to obtain the twitter account . This is a standard tool that prosecutors use. So we know about this one because it was litigated and it is now public because the former president has now been indicted and so the court, with the governments consent, has agreed that it should be made public. But it is highly likely that this is something that they have done over and over again with numerous accounts. Just to give you one data point, in the Special Counsel mueller investigation, in the 22 months we existed, this is public information. There were over 500 warrants. So that gives you a sense of how routine this is to do that. And what are you looking for . In this case, i think there is reason to think that it is to look for direct messages they obviously dont need what is public on twitter because they can get that without doing a Search Warrant. But you are able to direct message to and from people. And more than that, in order to show probable cause for a Search Warrant, that is to satisfy beryl howell, who is an exacting, experienced judge, that there is probable cause to believe that there is evidence of a crime in that account, i would think it is likely that the government had some direct messages to or from donald trump to other people so they could show her that it was, that there was going to be evidence of that in this twitter account. So i think thats what they were looking for, is more of those kinds of dm pieces of evidence. Harry litman, don trumps lawyers in florida are asking the judge in that case to allow donald trump to handle classified documents the proper way in a scif. They want to, basically, rebuild the scif, the secure facility that was at maralago during the trump presidency, for the handling, discussion of classified documents. They make the argument that it is better and more useful for them to be able to do that there rather than have donald trump have to get in a car with Secret Service and all that go to the courthouse every time they want to talk about it or look at the document. It sounds reasonable to me. What is your take on their request for the scif at maralago . Lawrence, im surprised you. Its crazy. Let me first add one thing, i dont know anything about classified documents. So to me it seems perfectly reasonable. Their first, theres no authority for a District Court to order, what, the Intelligence Agency just set up a scif here. Second, if there were, i think all it would take is one picture from how the is how they were handled at maralago to persuade the court, if it had the authority, which it doesnt, that this is not a very good idea. And third, there is just an irony that our guy who is being indicted and tried here for complete dereliction about these procedures and saying okay, lets break the rules again, give me a special little skiff to do this in. They are really exacting measures, from the Physical Plant to how you go in and, out where scifs are concerned, and for him to have his own kind of clubhouse to do it is kooky and also i just cant see under what authority who is the District Court supposed order to do this kind of thing. Okay, Andrew Weissmann, two words on the table describing this idea, reasonable and kooky. By the way, im not clinging strongly to reasonable since i had met, i dont know anything about skips and classified documents. Andrew, your take on this motion . Come on andrew, break the tie i think the way the way i would look at this if i were the court is, can i do this to scale . Meaning, if i do this here, is it something that im going to do in every case . And to harrys point, the answer to that is now. The government is not going to build scifs in every single defendants home or where they find it more convenient to discuss classified documents. And he should be treated no better and no worse than any other defendant. And i think there is a Real Slippery Slope that i have seen, whether its the Special Counselor mueller investigation. This is not a defendant who should be treated any better or worse than anyone else. But it may be more convenient for him. But as the judge i clerked for one said, im so sorry this criminal case is inconveniencing you. You know what, if he wants to talk about classified information he should go to a scif like Everybody Else who has Classification Authority to talk about those things. Harry, back to your point about the judge doesnt have the authority to order the federal government to build such a thing. Its certainly not within the Justice Departments capacity to create such a thing, right . The judge would have to be reaching out to order some other branch of the government to do that. I think so. I mean, they are involved, but it really is a whole special procedure within the intelligence community. She has jurisdiction over this criminal case. I dont see how that gives her any sort of footing. We are all watching closely. Will she over step in a way that could then give the government some purchase for going up to the Court Of Appeals and trying to recuse her . I dont think shell do this, but were sure to do it, i think this would possibly be grounds for appeal and refusal. Lets just remember, the only classified documents i have ever seen were in pictures on the floor and Donald Trumps home in florida. Thats all ive ever seen. Harry litman and Andrew Weissmann, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight. Coming up, today Fulton County just attorney fani willis told her staff not to respond in any way to Donald Trumps lying attacks on her or them. 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You may not comment in any way on the ad or any of the negativity that may be expressed against me, your colleagues, this office, in coming days, weeks, or months. You should feel no need to defend me. I am not concerned with the calls, emails, or ads, and you should not concern yourself with them. Your instruction from me is to ignore all the noise and keep doing your job with excellence. Joining us now, is gwen Keyes Fleming, former District Attorney in neighboring dekalb county, georgia. What donald trump is saying about fani willis we have never in American History heard a potential criminal defendants say about a potential prosecutor that defended might be facing. Knowing your friend fani willis as you do, what can you tell us about what she might be feeling that was not expressed in her email to staff . Well, lets remember, all of us are humans and while she is no doubt focused on Going Forward with this case, focused on our evidence, focused on the facts, focused on applying those facts to the law, i cant imagine that its not affecting her in some way. But like most of us, when confronted with challenges, when we know we have a tough job to do, we may have our private moments, but when its time to step up and do the job, we do it. And so her email to the staff is a reflective of her recognizing the importance of remaining professional in the moment, remaining committed to the task at hand, not being intimidated, and ensuring that she is following not only her oath as a prosecutor, but also her ethics as a lawyer. And so regardless of how this may be affecting her personally, she has clearly set her decisions in this matter are not personal. No based on the facts, theyre based on a law, theyre based on moving forward in a way that has integrity and will represent the citizens of Fulton County very well. They just issued, she just issued a subpoena to the Lieutenant Governor. The subpoena didnt have a date on it. Its a range of dates toward the end of august. Does that tell us anything about the timing of possible public indictments here . Is it possible we could have public indictments, say, next week, even before the Lieutenant Governor testifies . I think anything is possible. But i find it interesting that she is subpoenaing witnesses to the grand jury. Every prosecutor always has the option of just presenting their investigators or presenting police officers. I think she wants to make sure that the grand jurors get a feel for what actually happened in the room at the capitol, which is why she has subpoenaed several former State Senators and members of the house. That also breaks up some of the presentation for the grand tours, so theyre not hearing the same person for hours. It also possibly anticipates grandeurs having questions. So having these folks under subpoena, where she can rely on them if the jurors have questions, it demonstrates that shes trying to organize things and anticipate some of the needs of the grand tours might have. We pointed out in this program many months ago that in georgia the governor does not have the power to pardon. But the governor appoints apparently and correct me if im wrong, appoints the people who do have the power to pardon. How do pardons work in georgia . In georgia that is absolutely right. The governor does not have the ability to pardon. Its a decision made by the board of pardons and parole, and while they are all appointed by governors, they work collaboratively to determine whether a pardon is appropriate. And one of her two of the key prerequisites is that the person seeking the pardon as to observe their entire sentence and they have to wait five years during which they live a model life before applying. This is not a situation where there might be a conviction and a pardon immediately following that. They have to serve whatever sentence is issued by the judge and then they have to wait an additional five years after having a lawabiding life before they could even be considered a full pardon by the board. To be clear, other than a successful appeal of the sick of the case, there is no process in georgia that can set aside a sentence. That is correct. Other than an appeal. Gwen Keyes Fleming thank you for teaching us, as you always do. Thank you for joining us tonight. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. Coming up, there is an obvious problem with members of congress, especially senators, staying in office longer than they are physically able to do the job. 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Seriously good scent. And 50 more fresh. This is more than just red now thats love at first sniff. And blue. This is about humanity. This is about my success being your success, your success being my success. Im proud to be a congressman of florida s district [applause] congressman Maxwell Frost is now the youngest member of congress and david hogg, who was active in Maxwell Frosts campaign, wants to see more members of Congress Like Maxwell Frost,. Gun safety advocate and shoe School Shooting survivor david hague wants to put more young people elective office. Thats what young people to do. We defy the odds and defy expectations because we are passionate committed to creating a future where our School Houses our School Houses are not slaughterhouses, where our planet is inhabitable for future generations. But just voting is not enough. We have to get better leaders involved. Their organization, called leaders we deserve, will support candidates who are of the School Shooting generation, candidates were 30 years old and under four State Legislatures and 35 years old and under for congress. The group is putting an emphasis on supporting candidates who are running for State Legislatures. Joining us, now the founder of leaders we deserve, david hogg. David, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Please make your case for this organization and what you hope it can accomplish. Absolutely. After parkland happened there were many people who came to us and said its great that you all care as young people about ending gun violence, we cant change gun laws. This is florida. And then we did. We raise the age to buy again in the state to 21 in a way press passed red flag laws. Thensaid its great and people are gonna turnout. And then we said watch. As we head the largest Youth Globalization in march for alive since the Vietnam War Protests in the 1960s, with millions of people marching with us and watching to see and iran and around the country in the, aftermath of the parkland shootings. We register Tens Of Thousands Voters with. That we went on later on to play a critical part in electing President Biden defeating the nra puppet donald trump. With that, people said more recently, its great evolved on, that but you never liked somebody who is 25 years old congress who doesnt come from a super well politically, connect to family, like Maxwell Frost. We had watches, and we did. Now hes the youngest member of congress. As were trying which i knew. Here our generation, our entire lives, during school, has been taught with our abcs to run, hide, fight, to survive a school shooter. Our generation needs to repurpose that. We need to start running for office, we need to stop hiding for the responsibility that we have to protect future generations, and we need to start fighting for a Better Future that and while understanding the water political system is broken, its not on fixable. Were getting to work and people like Maxwell Frost and others are joining us in that fight. So were really taking this to State Legislatures, where ron desantis and the worst of these policies are coming from in the first place, like the dont say gay laws. Like permitless carry. And so many awful policies. So if people would like to join us in that work, to lead the fight, to creating a better political system starting at the ground level with our State Legislatures, they can go to leaders we deserve. Com. You make the point that republicans have been targeting State Legislatures for many years while democrats concentration tends to be on congress and the presidency. Absolutely. I think part of the reason for that is that for a long time democrats and the Supreme Court. Well, we dont have that anymore. Our generation has the greatest asset anybody can have on their side in politics, which is time and the fact that were Gonna Outlive a lot of the people that work in the building right behind me and in the Supreme Court. The question is, what are we gonna do about the legacy of a lot of these farright leaders who have taken over our political system and read it in their favor through things like gerrymandering . Where states like florida continually passed Progressive Ballot Members that ultimately the State Legislature invalidates because theyve created a system of gerrymandering where politicians are picking their bold voters, and the voters arent willing to pick their politicians. We need to Start Testing out progressive policies at the state level, developing jurisprudence to see what we get through the courts, so that when my generation comes into power, when it joins that bench, we can say, actually, this is why these progressive policies are constitutional. This is why our School Houses need to be protected more than an a comments states wouldve qualified for the support of this grou states senate. Bidenand so starting yo very str thats why actually a h actually a h joining that, a get hank you for having me. E deserve. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. We really appreciate it. Well be right back. Are provider about the number one prescribed Hiv Treatment, biktarvy. Biktarvy is a complete, onepill, onceaday treatment used for hiv in many people whether youre 18 or 80. With one small pill, biktarvy fights hiv to help you get to undetectable and stay there whether youre just starting or replacing your current treatment. 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And i oneonone conversation with ceo mary barra. What she had to say about the economy. A. I. , competition from china, in the future of electric vehicle, as the 11th hour gets underway on this wednesday night. Good evening once again. Im stephanie ruhle. We begin this evening with the scope of the Special Counsel jack smiths investigation into donald trump and new signs that it is still growing. The latest revelation that investigators executed a Search Warrant of Donald Trumps twitter account and the company had to be held in contempt by a federal judge before handing over the material. Here is one former prosecutor on the kind of evidence that they must have been looking for. The twitter files that the Justice Department wano