Trumps social media, they say, pointing to a post that says if you go after me, im coming after you. That was friday night in the filing. Since then, donald trump has repeatedly attacked jack smith, said nancy pelosi is going to hell and claimed mike pence is lying in his sworn testimony, that hes gone to the dark side. Trumps lawyers did the Full Ginsberg, or his lawyer, singular on sunday, arguing the january 6th charges are bunk, that donald trump was exercising his free speech. Will he use that same defense in arguing against the protective order. Donald trump used that, the response is due today at five, well explore it. Were also watching georgia where d. A. Fani willis is indicating a big decision is coming any moment. Not to mention florida where something could be brewing in the other Special Counsel case. What judge Aileen Cannon just did that might give jack smith a reason to ask for her dismissal. Let us dive in. Joining me now is nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian, its good to see you. Get me up to speed on this protective order. Why do they argue that what hes posting is dangerous, and not free speech . Great to see you, katy. Look, a protective order is standard in a criminal case. The prosecution is going to turn over Tens Of Thousands of documents, some of which are subject to grand jury secrecy, some have private information about individuals and the prosecution wants the judge to order donald trump and his lawyers not to make that public. They added special sauce when they cited the truth social post which emerged on friday night as they were writing the brief. They used that to communicate to the judge that they have more than the usual reason to be concerned in this case by turning over Sensitive Information to donald trump because he has a habit of making things public in an effort to intimidate his opponents. Theyre not in this document asking for a gag order, any kind of restriction on trumps ability to criticize the judge or prosecutors in this case. That may come later, but as of right now, the issue is about the documents that they want to turn over as soon as possible to get this trial moving. And theyre worried about what he might reveal about Donald Trumps lawyer who as i said to the Full Ginsberg going on arguing that these charges are bunk, that donald trump has the right to free speech, and thats just what he was exercising. Ill play one of the appearances because they all said the same thing. The defense is quite simple, donald trump, president trump, believed in his heart of hearts that he had won that election. As any american citizen, he had a right to speak out under the First Amendment. He had a right to petition governments around the country, state governments, based on his grievances, that Election Irregularities had occurred. He had every right to speak about the important issues that were taking place after the election. All right, so is he going to be using that same vein, that same argument in trying to say to the judge in this case that, no, donald trump does not need a protective order . Well, he did hint at that in the Full Ginsberg round robin, katy. The news media should be concerned about the protective order, even routine information that isnt sensitive, he may have a point there, but as i said, protective orders are standard in criminal cases, and ill say one other thing, which is that i delve into all of those defenses in a piece we published on nbc news on friday. Its fair to say there are more plausible defenses in this case, than there are in the classified documents case in florida. Its also fair to say that each one of them has significant flaws, principally, one of which, they appear to require donald trump to testify at the trial, which as you and i both know would be legally perilous for donald trump. You got to give me more, ken. Explain more. If he wants to invoke the advice of counsel defense, relied on esteemed lawyers who told him what he was doing with the fake electors was legal, most legally experts believe, and waive Attorney Client privilege. He argued if he generally believed the election was stolen, who could talk about Donald Trumps state of mind, with donald trump. Especially when theres a lot of evidence to the contrary that he was told he lost the election. A lot of perilous moments ahead for him. That is interesting, donald trump on the stand, would interesting, a nice way of putting it. Judge Aileen Cannon just recently filed a response regarding walt nauta and the Special Counsel, can you explain what she said . Yeah, well, she granted the prosecutors request for a hearing to decide whether walt nautas defense attorney, Stanley Woodward has conflicts of interest. He represents other witnesses. She denied their request to file some information under seal because she said they didnt justify it, and she questioned why they were using a washington, d. C. Grand jury to continue to investigate potential Obstruction Of Justice in the case. Its hard to see exactly where this is going, it just shows that judge cannon is going to make the prosecutors work for every single thing they want to do in this case. My next guest has a thought on that. Ill get to it in a moment. Ken dilanian. Joining me now is former u. S. Attorney Barbara Mcquade and joyce vance. I want to start with what we began with, and that is this protective order. Barbara, ill begin with you. I mentioned that it could get hairy, the Discovery Process. Ken was saying this is a routine, normally a routine issuance, its not a big deal to get a protective order. Why could it get hairy in this situation . Well, as we can see, donald trump is going to Fight Everything tooth and nail. It is routine because what they want to turn over are all of the witness statements, so in order to be disclosed into the world, you could imagine that people who have testified against donald trump could find themselves being harassed or threatened by members of the public. Donald trump is going to push hard on everything. And even if he doesnt get his way, the eventual delay in his trial, seems to be his game, Fight Everything, delay everything, concede no ground. I lost you for a couple of moments in that answer there. The connection went bad, so ill ask joyce you the same question. In issuing a protective order, with donald trump claiming his free speech is being violated, et cetera, does that make whatever the judge decides a little trickier . Well, anytime youre looking at these kinds of issues, you have to make consideration about treating all defendants alike. That becomes virtually impossible in the case of donald trump, complicated by his run for the presidency, and First Amendment issues that might arise in the context of the political process. But in so far as he claims any sort of a First Amendment defense to engage in the three conspiracies and the Substantiative Count that hes charged with in the election interference indictment, thats really a nonstarter, katy, because nothing that hes doing here is alleged to be speech. He is charged with conduct, not speech, and thats the line that prosecutors very carefully crafted and drew in this indictment. Hopefully the connection leveled out, mike pence, his former Vice President who in sworn testimony said that donald trump called him too honest and that he was pressuring him to try to overturn the election. Hes now saying he never said that to mike pence. Hes been saying this at various appearances, also on truth social. And claiming that mike pence is, i guess, trying to jump start his fledgling campaign. Mike pence as a witness, if the Special Counsel were to call him, how powerful would that be . And do you expect, barb, that mike pence would end up testifying if called . I do, katy. I think hell be subpoenaed to call to testify. It wont be his choice, and i think he will be asked. There are a number of allegations in the indictment that seem to be things only mike pence knows about. He discusses private conversations in several places, private phone calls including this one where donald trump said youre too honest, and i think mike pence is the only person who can provide that testimony. They may squabble during the campaign, but when it comes time to trial, mike pence will be sworn under oath. Donald trump can testify and contradict him if he wants to, but i think theyll be stuck with cross examining mike pence and see who the jury believes. What about the idea coming from the trump team, he cane get a fair trial in d. C. , john is going to come up with evidence saying that the community itself is biassed against him, and that its not going to work to have a trial there. Is there any chance the venue gets moved, joyce . So this is one of those should have, could have, would have, types of defenses that defendants use in cases. Look at whats going on in florida, you have a very pro trump venue, at least if you credit voting records, and the government wont make a motion to move the trial. Thats because juries are more than just statistics about communities, and there will be ample opportunity and vor dire in the district of columbia for trump, just like there will be in florida for the government, really for both parties in both cases to ensure that the jury includes people who are willing to set aside any of their preconceived notions and decide cases only on the evidence they hear in court. Thats the entire predication for the way our criminal Justice System works. You dont get to go to West Virginia just because you believe the district of columbia jury might not like you. And again, the trial in florida has a much friendlier donald trump crowd. Let me ask you about judge Aileen Cannon and this filing that she made this morning, ken laid it out a moment ago. You said that the Special Counsel could, if they wanted to, use this, push back on it, and use it as a reason to ask for her dismissal in the case, that shes not fit to preside over this case. So well have to see how this plays out, katy, but its very troubling. The government tried to file a motion under seal that includes what they indicated was supplemental evidence. And what the judge did in the order that she issued on the protective order is she said, sorry, you cant file under seal, and she turned around and directed one of the defendants, walt nauta to respond to a specific issue, how do you feel about the government using a grand jury thats not here in florida to continue to gather evidence against you. Its very suggestive that she believes the government is engaged in wrong doing, something that barb and i have had occasion to talk about in the last few weeks. The government can continue to use grand juries to investigate other crimes and other defendants, even after an indictment has been issued, so theres no reason to believe that any of the conduct thats going on here is wrong. Whats really shocking here is seeing a federal judge refuse to give the government permission to file materials related to grand jury proceedings under seal, and certainly we can expect the government go back to her and as i often had to do in pleadings, say, judge, maybe i didnt do a good enough job of explaining what was going on here, let me take a second crack at it. If she persists in refusing to let them make their case, which they can only make under seal, if it involves grand jury information, then they likely will have to consider some form of action with the 11th circuit, whether thats an appeal or petition. Its very important to protect the integrity of the grand jury. Barbara, i know you think shes driving out of her lane here, judge Aileen Cannon, are there pitfalls to getting her taken off this case . Yes, and i dont know that i would agree with joyce. Maybe joyce isnt quite ready to go that far either. I think if she continues to persist in that lawsuit maybe recusal is appropriate, but i think the Justice Department is always reluctant to seek recusal of a judge, and i think they would only do so if she shows a blatant disregard for the law. This revelation, well have to see how this plays out, and i think it would take an awful lot before the government would seek recusal. Sometimes you can file an appeal of an adverse order, and in the course of that, the Court Of Appeals will on its own reassign the case to a different judge or it gives the government an opening to ask for it, in a way that may not be postured to do it just yet. 5 00 p. M. Deadline to file the response in the other Special Counsel case, the one we started with, regarding january 6th for Donald Trumps team to say why there should not be a protective order over information, the Discovery Process and evidence. Well see what happens. Joyce vance, Barbara Mcquade, ladies, thank you so much for joining us as always. Appreciate your expertise. With a possible fourth Trump Indictment any day in georgia, what could d. A. Fani willis have that jack smith does not. An nbc news exclusive, one on one with ron desantis. Why hes now saying donald trump lost the 2020 election. Hasnt been saying it before now. And the fda just approved the first pill to treat postpartum depression. How does it work and who is it for . Were back in 60 seconds. Is it for . Were back in 60 seconds subways now slicing their meats fresh. Thats why soccer pros like me profer the grand slam ham. And this rookie prefers fresh sliced turkey. Perfect for when youre subbed out of the game. And if we profer it, we know youll prefer it too. Nothing better than a sub, sub. The street outside Fulton Countys courthouse is closed. Security is tight. Most staff are working from home, and d. A. Fani willis says shes ready to move forward with Charging Decisions against donald trump. The question now is when will she do that . Joining me from atlanta is nbc news correspondent blayne alexander. Answer me, when is she going to do this . Do we have any indication, any reason to believe it might not be this week . Well see. And also, what would make this indictment different from the one we saw regarding january 6th from jack smith . So lets talk about timing first, and i wish i could give you the match date, but i can do a lot of Tea Leaf Reading for you, katy, and what i can tell you is we do know were within the period now, the threeweek period that she strongly indicated well get Charging Decisions. We dont expect it to happen until possibly the end of this week or early next week. Ill tell you why. We know shes preparing the case. We know subpoenas have gone out, compelling people to come forward and testify before the grand jury in Fulton County. What has not happened is that all of the people who received those subpoenas have to get a 48hour notice as to when they are supposed to appear specifically before the grand jury. I have been checking today with a couple of those people who received the subpoenas, they have not gotten that 48hour notice yet. While she is preparing her case, we know shes not preparing to present it, at least within the next 48 hours. But as you mentioned security is tight. Streets are closed. Barricades are up. Stronger than last week. This is pointing towards us watching and waiting to something happening in the coming days. Whats notable about this, were looking at when this is going to happen, were also looking past it to see what it could potentially look like if there was to be a Trump Indictment and possibly a trump arraignment. We know that the sheriff has said in a News Conference he told me as well that he doesnt plan on any special treatment if the former president were to be indicted here. That means hes planning for a mug shot. Hes planning for fingerprints. He told me he doesnt want to do anything for anybody else that he wouldnt do his own citizens of Fulton County, that he would do it for anybody else in the county. The other big difference, katy, i think that if, and thats a big if, we see a Trump Indictment here, is that cameras will very likely be allowed in the courtroom. Georgia, Fulton County operates different from federal court, different from what we saw in manhattan. The sources i have been speaking with in the courtroom said theres no indication they plan to make a departure from that this far, katy. Blayne alexander, thank you very much. Coming up next, ron desantis says something he has never said before, what he told dasha burns, and why it matters. The fda approved a pill for the leading cause of pregnancy related deaths. Whos it for and how it works. Ds whos it for and how it works. Having triplets is. Amazing expensive. 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