good evening. i'm mehdi hasan. the insanity defense. that is what the trump legal team seems to be offering this week in the wake of special counsel jack smith's stunning and damning 45-page indictment, excuse, me of the former president, charging him with conspiracy to defraud the united states, obstruction and conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, and conspiracy to violate rights. all charges fueled by his lies per the indictment. the trump team saying, though, he wasn't lying, he truly believed he won the election. which, if he truly believed that, would of course be insane. but it's not true, as smiths and item notes, trump was informed by members of his own campaign and legal teams that he had indeed, lost there was no massive fraud involved. trump himself is quoted in the indictment telling mike pence after his own vice president told him that he, mike, pence had no constitutional authority to reject the vote on january the 6th, quote, you're too honest. best of all, one of trump's own top lawyers stood outside the courtroom at trump's arraignment on thursday and said this in front of cameras, recording her. >> i think everybody was made aware that he lost the election, but that doesn't mean that was the only advice he was given. >> oh. everybody was made aware that he lost. there goes the insanity defense. but trump and his supporters in the gop and on fox have not given up with their nonsense defenses. they've spent the past week straw manning, what about,-ing and straight-up lying in response to jack smith's latest indictment of the former president. tonight, let us start by debunking the top five desperate defenses of donald j trump. and number, one this is the most popular one, this indictment of the former president, they say, is a criminalization of free speech, of political speech. donald trump had a first amendment right to say he didn't lose. how dare the doj violate that? listen to the folks on fox. >> they are criminalizing political speech and political interpretation. those are now felonies punishable by decades in jail. >> what this says from jack smith is a complete violation of an individual first amendment rights. >> it's garbage dressed up with a legal the source. it's criminalizing thoughts and criminalizing speech. you have every right to think and election might be rigged or fixed. >> yes, greg, you do. you do have a right to think or say that. you know who agrees with you? jack smith, in his a diamond, right on the second page, paragraph three, he says the defendant had a right, like every american, to speak publicly about the election and even tickling falsely that there been outcome determinative fraud during the election and that he won. however, smith goes on to say, the defendant didn't just speak out about the election or make false claims, he pursued unlawful means of discounting legitimate votes and subverting the election results. see, you can speak freely as long as you are not engaged in crimes or criminal conspiracies. we all know this. conning someone out of their life savings is speech, but it's still a crime. bribing someone's speech and a crime. blackmail is speech and it is a crime. sharing state secrets with a foreign government's speech, it's also a crime. to quote a headline in the new republic this, week there is no first amendment right to organize a coup or to quote someone i would normally quote, trump's own former attorney general, bill barr. >> as the indictments us, they are not attacking his first amendment right. he can say whatever he wants, he can even lie, he can tell people that the election was stolen, that he knew better. but that does not protect you from entering into a conspiracy. >> this isn't that hard to follow. donald trump is being put on trial not for what he said but for what he did. number two, they say that donald trump is being indicted for defrauding the united states. but what he did doesn't meet the legal definition of fraud. conservative national review magazine put out an editorial slamming the ind said, as the supreme court reaffirmed a few weeks ago, fraud and federal criminal law as a scheme to swindle victims out of money or tangible property. yeah, but they got the wrong statute. sorry, guys, that was wire fraud. as long as ken white and ryan goodman on twitter have pointed out, the indictment charges trump with defrauding the u.s. until 18 u.s. section 371. here's how the supreme court defines defraud under that statute. quote, to just conspired to defraud the united states means primarily to the government out of property or money, but it also means to interfere with or obstruct one of its lawful government functions by deceit, craft, or trickery. and that is what trump did. that's how he allegedly conspired to defraud the u.s.. not in a financial way, but a very political and anti-democratic way. it's a felony under section 371 to do that. number three, this is politicized justice say the republicans, this is the target of their political opponent. and what about hunter biden? just have a read of a gop senator tim scott tweeted on tuesday in response to the indictment. quote, i remain concerned about the weaponization by biden's doj, what we see today are two different tracks of justice, one for political opponents and another for the sign of the current president. he continued, we are watching biden's doj continue to hunt republicans while protecting democrats. hunter republicans. hunter republicans. why haven't all the republican candidates running for president, including tim scott, been indicted? including especially trump's own vice president, mike pence? why only the candidate who try to overturn the election? this is desperate stuff from tim scott. the truth is joe biden isn't involved in any indictments of donald trump. he won't even comment on them. his attorney general, merrick garland, outsourced at this latest investigation to special counsel jack smith to avoid any perception of politicization or weaponization. and that is for hunter biden, a trump-appointed attorney david weiss, again given huge freedom and discussion by garland who did -- upset congressional republicans. again, to quote bill barr of all people, you may not like this case, but it's a legitimate case. it's not weaponization. number four, what trump did pressuring mike pence to throw out votes was not a violation of the law, it was just a technical violation of the constitution. those don't count, apparently. this is the newest defense of trump rolled out by his newest lawyer, john lauro, on meet the press this morning. >> a technical violation of the constitution is not a violation of criminal law. that is just plain wrong. >> what? what? i will leave the rebuttal this wanted him about it congressman jamie raskin, a constitutional law professor himself, who also appeared on meet the press shortly afterwards. >> first of, all a technical violation of the constitution is a violation of the constitution. the constitution in six different places opposes insurrection and makes that a grievous constitutional event. so our constitution is designed to stop people from trying to overthrow elections and trying to overthrow the government. but in any event, there is a whole apparatus of criminal law which is in place to enforce this constitutional principle. that's what donald trump is charged with violating. he conspired to defraud the american people out of our right to an honest election, by substituting the real legal process we have under federal and state law with counterfeit electors. there are people in jail for several years for counterfeiting one vote. if they try to vote illegally once. he tried to steal the entire election. his lawyers are out there that saying that is just a matter of him expressing his first amendment rights. that is the range. that is a deranged argument. >> deranged. well said, congressman. and last but not least, number five, whataboutism. what about the democrats? didn't they do the same thing didn't they do all of this before? listen to gop speaker kevin mccarthy speaking this week. >> i could say the same thing hillary ten says about her election that she lost. i can say the same thing about the dnc who said it about the 2016 race. i can say the same thing about those in the democratic party from the leadership on down about george bush not winning and al gore did. but were any of them prosecuted? were any of them put in jail? >> well, no, they weren't prosecuted and weren't put in jail because they didn't do what trump did. they didn't try to overturn an election. al gore conceded, in fact allegory was the sitting vice president who counted george w. bush editorial college votes and didn't do what trump falsely says mike pence was about to do. hillary clinton -- house senate democrats voted to object to some states votes counts in january 21 and january 2017, but not as part of a plot to overturn the election, not with the aid of fake electors, and not at all gore and hillary clinton's direction. republicans are gaslighting you when they say democrats did the same. of course they didn't. what donald trump did in terms of trying to overrule the votes in georgia or trying to get the doj to make false claims of voter fraud and trying to get mike pence to throw out votes and trying to submit fake electors, no president, no party has ever done before. what trump did is what he is being prosecuted, for not for what he said. and that they keep coming up with one ludicrous dishonest, demonstrably false argument after another is evidence that they know that this time, finally, he is in serious legal trouble. joining me now to discuss is and more, a run out -- former credible -- legal defense columnist for politico. dean, msnbc daily columnist and host of the dynamic delay show. and -- former california superior court judge an author of honor my life on the, bench what works, what is broken, and how to change it. thank you all for coming back on the show. george cordell, let me start with you. this afternoon, trump attached attacked the judge on his truth social platform. he's already attacked the prosecutor and potential witness mike pence. he's made threats. this is a rain on thursday when he promised to do not any of that. if you are in judge tanya chutkan's place overseeing this, what action would you be taking about this particular very high-profile defender, if any? >> when a judge makes an order, the judge expected to be followed. if the order is not followed, it should be immediate consequences. if not, the judge is not taken seriously. in this, case a magistrate, by the, way who happened to be a woman of color, gave him a directive and an order and he immediately, in my, view went out and violated it within 24 hours of the order. so it is likely that this issue will be brought before judge chutkan, not the magistrate. and for her, i think it is absolutely important that people who do not follow the judges order's face immediate consequences. so in this instance, i know that the other's prosecution is asking for a protective order. but there is still the issue of that order, the threats he's made, being violated when he's told not to. i analogize this to a parent raising a child. i have two daughters, i raised them with love and also to understand our consequences for your bad behavior. in this case, there have to be immediate consequences. for a child, it is usually, well, you can't go somewhere, you can't go to the party or a timeout. here, it is important that we have a timeout and, in my view, the timeout would be, oh, get your toothbrush and spend about 3 to 5 days sitting in jail to think about how serious this is and now when he is back in court, you understand this, you got? it okay, let's proceed. hopefully, lesson would be learned. >> hopefully, i, mean it's interesting to make analogy with children because he is a man child extraordinaire. as an aside, it must be killing him to be coming up against black women judge, black women prosecutor again and again. you've written a piece this weekend calling judge chutkan trump's worst nightmare. we fully explain why you think that is. >> for many reasons. i should say at the outset, she is going to be not only fair, she will be perfect in how far she will be. she has a history of defending defendants rights. she's a former public defender. donald trump will get an immensely fair trial. the reason, she is his worst nightmare is that she rejected the trump team's efforts to postpone a responsive motion by three, days making it very clear this trial -- and nope, not doing it, monday. john laura wanted the time to go on tv five times a day because of the motion response, go home, get in the green rooms, answer the motion. secondly, the idea that she's in it so harsh in sentencing january six defendants, she's been 80% of the time sentencing beyond what prosecutors want. which means, if donald trump is convicted of one of the four felonies, if not more than, that he's not going to be in mar-a-lago, folks. he's going to be in a prison cell, where he belongs. i hope for the rest of his natural life. also, of course, as the judges mentioned, the judge is a black woman and an immigrant. something donald trump really has a problem with. we all remember the back chants he led about congressman omar in congress. together, she is a great judge, she's going to be extremely fair. but you won't put up with his games. she is already making it clear. she is going to send him to jail if he is convicted. >> on the topic of this protective order in trump's habit of witness intimidation, i just want to fast forward a bit to the first year of -- donald trump has not committed to whether he will participate. if he is on that stage with mike pence and we are arguing about january the 6th, is that a violation of the order, as mike pence might be a witness in the trial? i know it's all unprecedented. we are in new ground here. but he's also surrounded daily by multiple advisers who, as the washington post reports this weekend, his own advisers could be witnesses in more than one of the coming trials. what do they say on a daily basis to him? >> it's a great question. i actually think, as you said, it's unprecedented. i think a different person than donald trump could, you know, act with a scalpel instead of a sledgehammer here and carefully choose his words and be careful about what he says on the debate stage, be careful about what he says to his associates. we all know donald trump is not going to do that. [laughter] >> he can't. >> from my perspective, what i think the judge is going to be very savvy litigator, a lot of experience. i think what she is going to do is instead of trying to take actions based on his -- [inaudible] i think she will continue to rule against him, she's going to continue to accelerate the trial date. ultimately, from my perspective, she's going to teach him ultimately that at the end of the day she is the decider and there is a real big consequence that comes if you are going to try to constantly -- the judges rule. i think it'll be interact, and as a result of him flaunting and going against the judges rules, i suspect he will get a speedier and speedier trial. that decision recently to deny a motion for just a three-day extension i think is a preview of what is to come. >> judge cordell, we have the d. a. alvin bragg prosecution of trump in manhattan. we have a possible indictment from d. a. fani willis in fulton county, georgia, coming perhaps any day now. both bragg and willis have said they will defer to jack smith on the timeline of trials. how quickly do you think judge chutkan could get this trial going? ronaldo mentioned a speedier trial. it's perhaps the most important trial of all. how quickly could get started? how quickly could be completed, even, given next november's the election? >> every defendant is entitled to a speedy trial. in this instance, when you have a very weak defense, what you do is delay. so it is up to the judge to move things along. however, the judge has to make sure that the defense has had the time to review all the discovery and get things in order. while there is a push, there are certain rights that have to be looked at. it is really interesting. everyone talks about the federal case. but it is the state course case where donald trump. , if he is convicted, has no way of getting out, no way around it. he can't use any kind of authority because the state courts are not under his authority. i really look at the state court cases as being the ones that can be the most effective if they are to have convictions, if he is convicted in those courts. >> dean, what did you make of the message discipline of some of the trump defenders, especially in the media, the wall street journal, fox, the new york post, national review, all of conservative media this week, they leapt almost with unanimity to pick up on, this it's an attack on free speech from the trump legal, team it was kind of standing to watch, but it can be effective when it comes to prosecuting. >> not a. as it can be to the gop base. that one defense i, love john moreau said it wasn't critical that trump what was doing, aspirational. he just aspire to overturn the election. it's like me going back in, going i have a gun in my pocket and i like all your money. that is aspirational. i'm aspiring to have the banks money. i can have a dream, can't? i >> i believe all the money is mine. i believe it in my heart that the money is mine. >> that's, right it's my money, i'm just aspiring, what are you doing? imagine if that actually works as a defense. just empty the prisons right now. any idea that we'd ever watch a episode of line, order everything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. we all know this. they are arguing the opposite of common. sense but the right-wing media, a place to their base. we learned with the dominion lawsuit, fox news and others on the right sometimes don't tell the truth, they tell their audience what they think their audience wants to hear. even if they are misleading them and making them dumb, or they don't care. especially what is going on. >> i guess my worry, dean, is that right wing media -- the new york times running pieces indulging the free speech argument, which i think is at stake. ronaldo, what do you make of this new talking point from trump's lawyer this morning, meet the press, he said it only technically violated the constitution, and that's not a violation of the law, of criminal law when trump told mike pence to delay or throughout the votes, however whatever euphemism we want to hear. >> technically, it is a war that defense attorneys like. i once used it myself, and i'm talking about particular regulations or statutes. but a technical, when you are talking about a technical violation, that is one less just say, for example, you are supposed to have your feds are near 50 feet and it turns out to be 50, one or something along those lines, were yes you've technically violated the law but you are complying with the law, the constitution is not quite that way. the law of the land, as a practical matter here, donald trump is accused. he's innocent until proven guilty. looking at that at night, he is accused of really using all sorts of means to deceive the american public in order to unlawfully seize power when it wasn't his and to stay in power beyond the time at which he was supposed to. he is the -- it's really contrary to the idea of the united states, what makes the united states special, which is the first president willfully stepping down when he is done with this term. >> he, and quick last question to you, a subject we talked about before, i want to give you a view now with the indictment finally out. do you still believe merrick garland could've done this much earlier? we didn't have to wait this long, we don't have to wait for jack smith? >> mehdi, we are sending a great message. you attempt a coup, we will get you in two years and 220 days. isn't that deterring? come on! merrick garland should've appointed jack smith in march of 2021, because even donald trump -- two weeks before and was going to run. jack smith has done an amazing job in seven months, i can applaud him enough. i've said before, mehdi, he is the john wick of prosecutors. you can say giannulli died in episode four, he didn't, i he's never going to die. >> don't ruin it for people. they are already making john week five. they are making john wick five. >> just like john wick lives forever, jack smith will live forever in donald trump's head as he sits in a prison cell for his last days. that is my hope. >> we will have to see, we will have to seat. you keep aspiring. ronaldo mayor rt, judge ledarrius cordell, thank you for your time. dean, stick around, i've got more stuff to talk to you about later in the hour. the one thing donald trump will never have to worry about is how history will remember him. my 60-second rant is next. my 60-second rant is next. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? 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(gentle music) >> it's time for what i like to call the 62nd, rent because with all these indictments of donald, trump -- consider how unprecedented this. all is trump is like no other president or presidential candidate in american, history has a list of firsts that no one should want. give me 60 seconds to remind you, start the clock, donald trump is the first former president to be indicted for state crime after being indicted by the men handshake and turning over hush money payments to -- first for president to be indicted for federal crime after being indicted by special counsel jack smith under the espionage act in june for unauthorized -- classified documents and conspiracy to obstruct justice among other charges. the first president to be indicted for a federal crime for acts committed while in office while being indicted by special counsel jack smith this past tuesday for overturning the 2020 election -- first foreign present we found liable of sexual abuse in new york court in may, the first major party presidential candidate who come election year will be on trial for crimes, multiple crimes in multiple jurisdictions, the first president repeatedly refused to release details -- voluntarily doing so 50 years ago, to be impeached twice for obstruction of congress in 2019, and obstruction in 2020, one of the first president to -- convict him in the senate, the first president ever to refuse to concede defeat in an election, the first president ever in a century to boycott -- incitants rexton in the nation 's capital and therefore the first president to ever, ever violate the peaceful transfer of power since this country began. after the break, and the overlooked trump accomplices, even if they are not guilty of crimes, republicans like ted cruz and ron johnson were integral to the ex presidents allegedly criminal efforts to overturn the election result. plus, do not forget, you can listen to the mehdi hassan show anytime free wherever you get your podcasts. res ladder that lets you place, flatt or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity. e*trade from morgan stanley wake up, achievers. you're making the most of every hour of your life. except the hours that you're sleeping. so why do we leave so much untapped potential on the table? this is a next level bed, for a next level you. my circadian rhythm is kicking your circadian rhythms butt! it's not a competition. i know, but i'm still winning! so, it is a competition. save up to $500 on the new sleep number® smart bed. plus, free home delivery when you add an adjustable base. >> since the latest trump shop now only at sleep number®. indictment was unveiled on tuesday, we've been working on the identities of the six coconspirators mentioned in the document. we believe we know who five out of six are, as confirmed by nbc reporting people like rudy giuliani and sidney powell. but questions remain about other potential trump accomplices, aside from the criminal coconspirators that appear throughout the indictment, we know trump had multiple allies and enablers, including prominent members of the united states senate, texas republican senator ted cruz who repeatedly sought to decertify and overturn the 2020 election results. credit to my colleague who pointed out how cruz's remarks on january the 6th, we'll, have a listen, quote, what does it take to the nearly half the country that believes this election was rigged if we vote, not even to consider the claims, conduct a ten-day emergency audit, consider the evidence? that was ted cruz echoing the exact language referenced in the indictment. that very today planned trump had in mind it according to prosecutors, we talk republicans senator mike lee was a big supporter of the fake electors scheme that promoted a key person behind it, john eastman, who reporting village is one of those six coconspirators in the indictment. text between lee and former white house chief of staff mark meadows in november of 2020 show lead saying he was at one point working, quote, 14 hours a day to help with the plan to prevent congress from certifying joe biden's win. last but not least, as republican senator from wisconsin ron johnson and johnson makes a cameo in the indictment but not by name. he is mentioned as the united states senator who was contacted on january the 6th by an agent of donald trump and asked to quote handler documents or the vice president. those documents, which johnson's staff attempted to deliver to pence or fraudulent certificates signed by a fake electors. the pence team rejected them. in the context of the new indictment from jack smith, it's worth as all remembering this antietam democratic conspiracy went way beyond trump or even the six unindicted coconspirators, and included, shamefully, senior republican members of the united states senate. back with me now is dean, host of the dean show on sirius xm. dean, what does it mean for american democracy that we have members of the senate, the most augusto, highest body in the land who try to overturn an election? they have in some shape or form and been a part of this criminal conspiracy by trump. they may not have committed crimes themselves but they were criminal conspiracy adjacent. >> absolutely. and it's deeply concerning because it also has more people in the base that thinks what trump did was not illegal because they're buddies with -- 75% of republicans did not think what trump did was illegal. it wasn't efforts to question the election. there is one person in the house repeating that, that is jim jordan. jim jordan, the january six report is the most talked about member of the congress. jim jordan is a significant player in the effort to overturn the election. i wrote about it before. jim jordan is not involved in just talking. some of the other guy's, he led, meetings numerous meetings on january six, he -- rudy giuliani, they talked about stopping the certification, they talked about social media posts to get people to go down to the capitol. that's all the january six report. i think jim jordan actually -- into a codefendant as a criminal conspirator, they will not charge him, his name is not out there. janry six committee, as people remember, subpoenaed him. he literally blew the subpoena off and there was no penalty whatsoever. this indictment talked -- and still we don't know what he said and what was going on there. we need to know that. it's very deeply alarming. >> of course, jim jordan is now the chair of a major committee, republicans control the house. there is really no way to get him to be accountable in legislative terms. but the democrats still control the senate, which is what bothers me so much about republican senators who've gotten away with this for so long. after january the 6th, there wasn't a lot of talks about ethics committee investigations of ted cruz and josh hawley, famously raised the fist at the protesters before they attacked his place of work, and then ran very fast. i just think, what happened to those investigations? what happened to the ethics committee investigation? what happened to a mile -- mild wrap on the rest for cruz, forget expelling them from the senate. i wonder where democrats are on this. democrats went silent on this far too quickly in the senate and allow these two people to be normalized again, when they should be normalized. they should be sean from polite company. >> are you saying democrats are timid when it comes to holding republicans accountable? i think you are absolutely right. we know this. in the senate, especially the senate, it's a chummy, boys club essentially with some women in there as well, but there is -- very cordial and they will not look at each other the way they should. that's why you don't see senate investigations. it's not that they are above everything. i literally think they are just part of the establishment. to that point were until you have, change it is still a very good, senate don't get me, wrong some have been on my, show but overwhelmingly the reality is is it is an old-time problem, let's have lunch together, let's talk about bigger issues like that. the house, the good or for bad, the gop is a firebrand, the democrats did a great job with the january six committee. i applaud that so much. you can pick out flaws, but they did what they had to do. so -- where are the democrat hearings on things like clarence thomas? -- everything is on the table. it must be a big table because you have not gotten a subpoena on clarence thomas yet. we need democrats to fight harder in the senate. remember, you are protecting our democratic republic, it's not just partisan, it's patriotism. >> i mean, one last thing i would say is what we've discovered since january six via the january six committee, via reporting, via this indictment as you have senators, house members, and supreme court justices all either directly or indirectly involved in attempt to overturn the election. and none of them have been held to account. they are all going still to be in place come 2024. that is very worrying to me. >> it is, and if it wasn't for jack smith, donald trump will not be held accountable as well. it's deeply troubling we have americans who believe that this democratic republic, this experiment really came, and they don't feel the urgency that you and i do, maybe because we have family members and other parts of the world when they see democracy come and go, and it's not going to be there forever, they don't get it. that is the thing for me. my fellow americans, understand, it could happen here because it is happening. it's not a drill, we are dealing with an authoritarian movement on u.s. soil and it's up to us to save this, you can't rely on jack smith or a jury, it's going to be up, understand, the urgency is here, the urgency is now, it's right now, it's up to us. >> well said, it's not some future attack. it's happening right now. dean, thank you so much for your time and your analysis. later in the hour, hypocritical, shameless, those words don't do justice to the actions of donald trump's sons in the wake of this latest indictment. of this latest indictment. your best defense against erosion and cavities is strong enamel- nothing beats it. new pronamel active shield actively shields the enamel to defend against erosion and cavities. i think that this product is a gamechanger for my patients- it really works. oversight committee hearing gone wrong for republicans. the gop's so-called star witness, a former hunter biden businesses o'shea it, ended up telling them what they didn't want to hear about joe biden, taking even more air out of their farfetched fantasy about a, quote unquote, biden crime family. stick around for more of my analysis on that. but first, richard lui here with the headlines. hello, richard. >> mehdi, good evening to you. a trainer element is where we started pakistan that killed at least 30 people and injured at least 80. ten cars of the hazara express went off the, tracks several overturning, leaving passengers trapped. the minister of railways saying the crash could be due to sabotage or mechanical failure, and an investigation is underway. ukraine officials say a russian guided air bomb hit a blood transfusion center in northeast ukraine saturday. it killed two people and injured for. ukraine's president said the attack was a war crime that, quote, says everything about russian aggression. it comes one day after a russian oil tanker under u.s. sanctions was damaged in a ukrainian c drone strike. and floodwaters receding in juneau, alaska, after a glacial outburst led to unprecedented flooding, the mendenhall river crested at nearly 15 feet saturday. reports suggest at least two homes, like you see here, where destroyed. authorities urge residents to stay away from the area due to debris left behind. more of the mehdi hasan show for you right after this break. >> a week ago tonight, the gop was up in arms over there, quote, bombshell witness in the hunter biden investigation. former hunter business association, devin -- republican created a conspiracy theory that the doj was looking to jail him ahead of his testimony to congress. except arteries already indicted last november on an unrelated charge and sentenced to a day in prison. the doj inquest was seeking a day to begin his jail sentence, which archer kept delaying. archertown and it up testifying to the house oversight committee behind closed doors this past week. and republicans wasted no time taking to the airwaves to hype his testimony up. >> every day, this -- scandal becomes more credible. he also said that hunter biden was under immense pressure to call washington, d. c., immediately and try to get chutkan fired. that's the ukrainian prosecutor. >> devin archer was clear that the value hunter biden brought to the business arrangement was the biden brand, the biden brand, of course, is joe biden. >> he involve his father and business transactions all over the world. >> today took a huge step towards implicating joe biden. >> well, that would be quite the bombshell, except the transcript shows that is not what archer said at all. question, are you aware of any wrongdoing by vice president biden? archer, no, i'm not aware of any. so, based on everything you saw and heard and observed, did you have any knowledge of joe biden having any involvement with burisma? archer, no, not direct, no. no involvement of joe? archer, no. biden with burisma? archer, no. my only thought is that i think burisma would've gone out of business if it didn't have the brand attached to it. well, well. know joe biden involvement in burisma, no wrongdoing by joe biden. his words. their star witnesses words. that whole talking point from comer and jordan about biden having ukrainian prosecutor, victor shokin, fired because chauvin was investigating burisma, whose board hunter biden sat on? archer himself acknowledged, under oath, to democratic congressman dan goldman, that shokin was actually good for burisma. he was soft on alleged corruption. as for the bombshell bravery allegations against the bidens, as philip bump writes in the washington post, carter said, under penalty of perjury, that he was never aware of any such bribe. offered to hunter biden or anyone else. so, republicans, us are straight-up lying about the what archer told them. that's not stopping congressman comer from saying, democrats are the real lives here. why are. >> anytime we do a transcribed interview like we did last week, you will either have jenny -- jamie raskin or dan golden come out and tell the press complete lies. >> yeah, who should we believe? dan goldman, who could be seen in the official transcript asking archer questions, or james comer who, according to the daily beast, wasn't even in the room when it happened and skipped the meeting altogether? yeah, the republicans apparently want you not to believe your own lying lies. coming up at nine eastern with ayman mohyeldin, tim hayfield, lead investigator of the january 6th committee joins the show to discuss how trump's latest indictment vindicates his panels work. plus, wisconsin democratic party -- the dire straits that state republican parties find themselves in. stick around. after the break, ayman joins me for a look at the brazen hypocrisy of trump's closest defenders. his children. and don't worry, we've got receipts. sale is in full swing! blendjet gives you ice-crushing, big blender power on the go so you can whip up a mouthwatering beverage wherever you are. enjoy 15 plus blends before rapidly recharging via usb-c. cleanup is a breeze! just blend water with a drop of soap. stand out even when you're accidentally twinning with our kaleidoscope of colors. don■t be tardy for this sale! head to blendjet.com and order yours now. - wounded warrior project has been with me every step of my journey. - they've helped me realize it's possible to rise to the top again. - it's possible to get the help i need for me and my family. - it's possible to hate pushups again. - to feel understood. - to begin healing both inside and out. - to feel like myself again. - and now i know anything is possible. (gentle music) >> thank you for watching. goli, taste your goals. - and now i know anything is possible. we will be right back here next sunday at eight pm eastern. you can now find the show on the msnbc app on peacock, and new episodes of the show airs every week on thursdays. now it is time to head it over to my good friend, ayman mohyeldin. a month, as been a lot of the debate this weekend about how little donald trump may love his adult sons, don junior, eric. but those two boys loudly came to their father's defense this week, after his indictment by jack smith on tuesday. with eric trump saying this on, where else, fox. >> we are no better than some of these third world countries around the world. we are literally trying to imprison political opponents. we are better than this. >> amen, these people have no shame. these receipts, no memory, no shame, no facts. time for some receipts. here is eric trump leading a rally in october of 2019. >> -- lock her up goes to lock him up. i don't know, lock him up. i don't know, i like lock her up a little bit more, but thank you, that's a good idea. i like that idea. >> we are better than this, says the guy who led a literal rally chanting, lock her up and lock him up. i mean, or it's like hypocritical and shameless, a man, don't do justice to what we just saw. and they're either damoff or dishonest enough to just keep doing it, to just keep pretending that it's the democrats who are targeting their political opponents with prison and not them. and the funny thing is, i don't think donald trump is going to give eric any more love, just because eric humiliates himself in this way on his dad's path, do you? >> yeah, i think the short answer to that is no. listen, in speaking of political opponents, i don't know if you saw this tweet from donie junior, who was trying to one up the secretary of state, anthony blinken, who was calling out the trump allied, anti-democratic russian president, vladimir putin, for actually jailing his main opposition figure, alexei navalny. and what does donie junior do? he thought this was a good time to gaslight us all, by making it appear that his father was the pro democracy figure in this comparison. i mean, that is the epitome of shameless. by the way, this was also the same donny junior who, to your point, tweeted out, lock her up, about, wait for it, his dad's main political opposition figure at the time, who was hillyard. i mean, you literally cannot make this stuff up. and here's the thing, to your point about the love. i mean, you can almost explain his children's willingness to embarrass themselves for their fathers love, among, perhaps, other incentives. but how do you explain boxes hosts like jesse waters debase -ing himself like this? watch. >> it was a gassed, a sarcastic lock her up chants, remember? but last night, appeared sexually arauz at the thought of donald trump imprisoned. >> oh, really? the lock her up chants that were all throughout the 2016 were suddenly sarcastic? i mean, donald trump has done more, mehdi, to weaponize the department of justice in his favor from firing jeff sessions, 's attorney general, to trying to use the doj, as we just learned this week, in his coup attempt. and now jesse waters wants us to think, oh, he was just being sarcastic at all those rallies. >> i mean, donald trump, when he does sarcastic, you know sarcasm. he wasn't sarcastic on the debate stage in 2016 when he pointed at hillary and said, i'm going to appoint a special prosecutor. if i'm president, you're going to be in jail. we know that he spent his presidencies using pressuring the doj, the fbi, to investigate clinton. amen, at times -- i'm just going to see off the top my head, just off the top of my head, joe biden, barack obama, hillary clinton, eric holder, andrew mccabe, jim comey, robert mueller, how many people has donald trump said openly he wants locked up over the years? >> listen, it's always projection with the republican or trump allies, i should say, you know? when they are talking about what they are accusing democrats of doing, it's what they internalized and what they have been doing for the last couple of years. what can we say, then? we are going to have to wait and see how this all plays out. mehdi, great to see you, as always, my friend, enjoy the rest of your evening. and good evening to you tonight on ayman. the range, that is how one high-profile democrat describes the trump legal defense strategy in the election interference case. this, as we look ahead to a possible fourth indictment in georgia. then, vindication. vindication, excuse me. i will speak with the january six committees lead investigator on how -- efforts laid the groundwork for the criminal charges brought by jack smith. and going broke, republican state parties are struggling for cash and everyone is blaming the ex-president. i'm ayman mohyeldin, let's get started. >> tonight, all eyes are on the dual election interference cases against donald trump and for the first time, we have a glimpse into the defenses

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