months, the former president of the united states has been indicted, arrested, and a range. and let's face it, we've become oddly familiar with how this all goes. there's the release of the indictment itself, helicopters following black suvs, and of course, the court sketches, all followed by a barrage of deranged posts on truth social. there's a bit of a rinse and repeat feeling that starting to set in. but this one did feel different, because it is different. it felt bigger, because it is bigger. the indictment filed by special counsel jack smith this week detailed the ways in which an american president engaged in a criminal conspiracy from the oval office to subvert the will of the people. of course, like any criminal defendant, trump is innocent until proven guilty. there will be a trial, and his legal team will mount a defense. but no matter how it ends, this is the one that historians will be talking about 100 years from now. trump is now facing four criminal counts in this case, including conspiracy to defraud the united states, obstruction of an official proceeding, and conspiracy against the right of americans to vote and have their vote counted. now, there will be a lot of political analysis and speculation about what this all means, and the impact it could have on the race in 2024. i'm here to tell you that most of those predictions are a little more than wild guesses at this point. and they may bear no resemblance to what we're actually seeing in 15 months, when the election rolls around. this is ultimately not about politics, and it should not be talked about only through the political prism. because it is not about joe biden. it is not about the republican or the democratic party, it is about a coordinated attempt to upend democracy itself by a sitting president. a quote from the indictment, it's about a concerted effort to quote, create intense national atmospheres of mistrust and anger, and erode public faith in the administration of the election. here's the thing, donald trump hasn't learned a single lesson. it doesn't seem that way it seems. he hasn't changed his behavior at all, and that's probably why the judge is at his arraignment explicitly warned him to his face that it is a crime to influence jurors or thoughts and anyone with information about his case. but just 24 hours after trump was released on bond, he issued this message in all caps on truth social, saying quote, if you go after me, i'm coming after you. it did not go unnoticed. just a few hours later, special counsel jack smith cited that threatening post in up request for a protective order. -- raising concerns that trump is going to publicly share the evidence that they give to his lawyers and use his platforms, his social media platforms, to intimidate witnesses. and that seems like a reasonable concern, unfortunately, especially since trump posted another threatening message late yesterday, attacking former vice president mike pence. he's a witness in the case against him. of course, this is exactly what we've come to expect from trump, who will do everything in his power to make this about politics and cast himself as a martyr. as the victim. he wants a public debate about who was for him and who is against him, and he wants us to talk about his poll numbers and whether this indictment will strengthen or weaken his campaign. what he does not want is a discussion of the facts. the truth is, what trump fears most say is the facts, the facts will prove more stubborn than he is. that he won't be able to spin, control, threaten, or lie his way out of this. that he will lose control. he does not want us to remind you that the people that made this indictment are not joe biden or even merrick garden, -- maga republicans, quoted throughout the indictment. and he does not want to talk about the trove of additional details that jack smith may have. so, that's exactly what we're going to do over the course of the next hour. joining me now is ron klain, president biden's former chief of staff and my former boss. it's great to see you. >> great to be back, thanks. >> you have more experience in washington and every job there is than almost anyone, and i think part of what we need to address here is what's normal and what's not. and i want to start first with this post, because trump posted, if you go after me, i'm going to go after you. you are familiar with worrying about security threats, how concerned should we be about those type of posts? >> well, i think, as you discussed, this is an effort by the former president to try to intimidate witnesses that might testify. and as you noted, the witnesses in this case or not democrats, they aren't trump haters, they are people who are some of his closest advisers. his loyal vice president, mike pence, who is likely going to be a witness in this case. so he's trying to intimidate people who know the truth, he doesn't want them to tell the truth, is that normal? no, it's not normal. it's possibly also criminal. >> when you are reading this, because i haven't had a chance to ask you or talk to you about this, you're the incoming chief of staff when this all happened. you were preparing to lead during covid, during a really hard time in our country. what did you think when you read this? >> i thought, how close it came to succeeding. the indictment is a damning indictment of what donald trump tried to do to keep the american people from having that will in the election. trying to overturn the results, trying to interfere, obstruct with the lawful process in the transfer of power. i think it's hard to read it and not think how close it came to all working. and that, i think, is the scariest thing of all of this. >> the other question i've never asked you about is during the transition, i was a spokesperson on the transition, you with the incoming chief of staff. i remember being worried the night before january 6th that that will delay tactics being used on the floor. but not about the level of violence or the level of security threats. and what were you worried about at the time? >> same thing i was worried about, efforts to just lay and postpone. the vice president pence wasn't going to show up, i wonder what that element, was that going to be turned out to be true? -- and i will say there were times on january 6th where i was fearful that donald trump would not leave the office, and joe biden would never be sworn in as president, because they would not be able to resume the electoral votes. >> trump's former chief of staff, mark meadows, is not mentioned in the indictment. there's speculation he's cooperating. you, of course, don't have any information on that. but you did hold the same job, and what struck me is just -- the chief of staff has so much access to the president, so much information. what kind of information or accessed you have as chief of staff to the president? people that are trying to understand this. >> we have a lot of access to a lot of information, and we're supposed to use it for lawful purposes. and the question here is, there was a conspiracy that developed in the white house, a conspiracy to not let the world of voters be the outcome of the election. a conspiracy to stop the lawful process, the transition of power. and the question is, who was involved in that conspiracy? as a chief of staff, your job is to find conspiracies going on and stop it, and keep it away from the president. and instead it appears that the president himself propagated this conspiracy. as i said, nearly succeeded in it. >> one of the things that was also striking, but even more so, is trump basically went around the typical legal advisers. the acting attorney general, the white house counsel, mike pence described the team of lawyers he went to as a crock pot lawyer, to quote mike pence. how abnormal is that for a president to go outside of the attorney general, the white house counsel, and others? >> i think it gives crack pots a bad name. what happened here was ridiculous, and an effort to break the law. bill barr was donald trump's handpicked attorney general, he put him as his attorney general when he forced out attorney general sessions, and then bill barr was the attorney general, bill barr told him there is no basis for this. barr resigned, and then he put in acting attorney general, that person told him that the justice department has no role here. you have to have a legal challenge to it, the legal challenge failed because there was no basis for it, and then trump just ignored the legal advice he was getting from his normal legal advisers. the white house counsel, the councils were excluded from meetings. they brought in these people that were part of his conspiracy to try to overturn the results of the election. and that's what went on the white house. there's nothing like this that had been seen before. >> the other thing that struck me, and what we certainly don't know, we weren't in there, although we were on the transition. but president pence claimed he didn't know about the electors plot. he was the chief of staff to vice president and president, i don't buy that. but i'm interested in what your gut instinct was that. >> it's hard to know what they did or didn't tell mike prints. they're clearly trying to pressure him to do something that he had no legal authority do, which was to stop the electoral college and to overturn the fake electoral votes. that's something that no vice president has ever done before because there's no legal basis to do it. and others also rejected this possibility, al gore in 2000 had to preside over the electoral college tabulation that resulted in him not being elected president. so the vice president -- is common, they were pressuring pence not to do his legal duty -- but they didn't tell him, we don't know. >> one of the big debates of their is whether they should be cameras in the courtroom. there is an argument for that for transparency purposes, you're also -- when the president was coming and was trying to settle the country. what do you think about the idea of cameras in the courtroom? are you for it? >> i would be fort in this case. first of all, i generally favor cameras in the courtroom but i do think the judicial process should be more transparent. and so i think we have cameras obviously in the congress proceedings, and we should have cameras in the courtroom general. specifically here, given the crimes that are alleged, which is an effort to essentially overturn the government, the public has the right to see this trial and the public conference in the outcome of the trial is going to be critical. >> i'm gonna ask you to put your chairman hat on for a second, because i understand that chief justice roberts would have to decide that cameras could be in the courtroom. is there anything that the senate can do or the judiciary committee can do to compel that to be the case? >> i suppose that congress could pass a law requiring amara's, requiring that all proceedings should be televised. i don't think that's going to happen. -- the chief justice, i understand that competing considerations here. i think this is a special case and i think there should be televised access to the case. >> you've known the president for so long, and he came in at such a difficult moment in history. part of the impact of trump questioning the outcome is that an overwhelming majority of republican voters still to this day it don't believe that president biden was legitimately elected. despite court cases and everything. how do you think -- do you think he bears the scars of that? >> i don't think he bears the scars of that. look, the job of the president biden has done in these two years, he's worked with republicans, he's working with mitch mcconnell to get things done. he's worked with kevin mccarthy to get the debt limit situation navigated this year. he's passed bipartisan legislation, bipartisan infrastructure bills, bipartisan legislation to help our veterans, control legislation, so he's been -- or as much as they've been willing to work with him, he's gone the extra mile. and so i think he's done everything he can to be a president for all americans. i have one more thing. look at these bills he passed, these major investments in clean energy and infrastructure. all of our studies show that most of the money those -- republican states and massive job creation. >> someone is taking credit for it. >> someone is taking credit for it and voted against it. but he's the president for all americans, trying to make this country better in every one of the 50 states. and i think that's what joe biden is. what he was elected to do, it's what he has been doing as president. >> i think people can now see why i could just go talk to you for ten minutes before a briefing and know all the things i needed to know. thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. >> thanks for having me. >> coming up, you do not have to be a lawyer, and i'm not, to understand how it -- ridiculous some of the legal defenses in this case really are. we're going to go through some of their favorite arguments one by one. plus, did the trump allies who are calling this whole thing a political witch hunt know how much of the evidence of that -- and later, a look back at the work of the january six committee and a look ahead to this trial with congressman -- we're just getting started today, we'll be right back. e'll be right back your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ choosing a treatment for your chronic migraine - only pay for what you need. 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more - can be overwhelming. so, ask your doctor about botox®. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start. it's the #1 prescribed branded chronic migraine treatment. so far, more than 5 million botox® treatments have been given to over eight hundred and fifty thousand chronic migraine patients. effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. don't receive botox® if there's a skin infection. tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. in a survey, 92% of current users said they wish they'd talked to their doctor and started botox® sooner. so, ask your doctor if botox® is right for you. learn how abbvie could help you save on botox®. ♪♪ when you have chronic kidney disease... there are places you'd like to be. like here. and here. not so much here. if you have chronic kidney disease, farxiga can help you keep living life. ♪ farxiga ♪ and farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure, which can lead to dialysis. farxiga can cause serious side effects including dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections in women and men, and low blood sugar. ketoacidosis is a serious side effect that may lead to death. a rare life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this bacterial infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. farxiga can help you keep living life. ask your doctor for farxiga for chronic kidney disease. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. ♪ farxiga ♪ (fan #1) there ya go! athat's what i'm talkin' about!. 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a lawyer told him that he could overthrow the government, so we can't be guilty of trying to overthrow the government. that sounds absurd, right? the other problem here was that he was surrounded by lots of lawyers advising him not to pursue these legal avenues. his top law enforcement official, the acting attorney general, told him the justice department could not and would not change the outcome of the election. his deputy white house counsel told him quote, there is no world, there is no option in which you do not leave the white house. according to the indictment, trump purposefully left his white house counsel out of a meeting where he pressured mike pence to reject the biden electors. you heard how that -- because the white house counsel had pushback on trump's false claims of election fraud. donald trump wasn't led astray by his lawyers, he ignored them and instead went lawyer shopping. he went out of his way to find and empower people willing to make the argument that he wanted to make. even when others plainly pointed out how outrageous his plans were. finally, and perhaps the most absurd argument, trump was simply ignorant. he just didn't know any better. that no matter how delusional he truly believed that there were rampant -- there was rampant fraud in the 2020 election, and that he actually won. but there are more than a couple cracks in the foundation of that one. just this week, one of donald trump's lawyers are very plainly said that everyone around him knew he lost. >> there is testimony and there's a number of aids that have said that the president was made aware that he lost the election, and yet continued to argue that it was stolen from him. how do you reconcile those two things? >> i think that everybody was made aware that he lost the election, but that doesn't mean that that was the only advice that he was given. >> hard to square everybody knowing trump lost, and he just not knowing. there are also several documented instances where he admitted he lost. during a national security briefing after the election, he told advisers, we're going to give that to the next guy. alyssa farah testified to the january six committee that while watching joe biden on tv, trump once said, quote, can you believe i lost to the sky? so just to recap, trump really can't claim free speech here, can't really blame bad warriors, all of whom are coconspirators anyway, and he can't really claim ignorance because that's not exactly believable. so it was such a weak legal defense, watch what trump and his allies will do now. it's a predictable and unfortunately familiar playbook. delay, confuse, make a lot of noise. trump's lawyers apparently are running a media blitz rather than handling their client. just this morning, he threw some of those same defenses at five sunday morning shows. the defenders were already attacking the judge and lining up to say that it's somehow impossible for the legal system to work correctly in washington d.c.. though use this confusion and noise to delay the trial as long as they can. because the longer it goes on, the closer he comes to trying to get back into office. because of the real goal for him is to get elected, and shut this case down. up next, i've got two of our best legal experts, andrew weissmann and -- to try to help make sense of donald trump's extremely flawed defense. plus, why prosecutors are now asking the judge overseeing the case to step in after trump's threatening post on social media. we're back after a quick break. ck break (dad) we got our subaru forester wilderness to discover all of the places that make us feel something more. 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right home insurance coverage, well, you could end up paying for all this yourself. so get allstate, and be better protected from mayhem, yeah, like me. thanks, bro. take a lap, rookie. real mature. we've seen a surprising amount of action this weekend, between the special counsel's office, donald trump's legal team, and the presiding judge in the election interference case. on friday, jack smith's team fall what's known as a protective order. they're essentially asking the judge to bar trump from publicly disclosing some of the evidence gathered during the investigation. that type of request is not uncommon, a protective order was issued in both of the other cases where trump has been indicted. but what is uncommon is what the special counsel's team had to cite in their filing. it is concerning poke from donald trump, and they write, quote, regarding this case, the defendant has issued multiple posts, either specifically or by implication, including the following which the defendant posted just hours ago. if the defendant were to begin issuing public posts during -- obtained in discovery here, it could have a harmful, chilling effect on witnesses or a firstly affect the fair administration of justice in this case. the judge gave trump's team until five pm tomorrow to follow response. trump's lawyers that made a request for more time, which the judge quickly denied. clearly, we have a lot to discuss. and luckily i have my own law from here to help me work through all of it. neil -- is the former acting u.s. solicitor general, andrew weissmann is the former fbi general counsel. the unofficial law firm of you guys, a lot she work it out, joins me now. i want to start with you and i almost wanted to the goal of the protective order is to stop trump from sharing evidence, but what about the social media posts that -- they may not share evidence, but they are still threatening. so what can the judge actually do? especially that mike pence one, which reads like a clear threat. what can the judge do to stop that? >> so, jen, it's worth noting that on thursday at the arraignment, donald trump under oath swore that he would not retaliate against, or threaten any potential witness. and then the next day, that post and others with respect to mike pence were issued. so what can the judge do? while the judge can start by bringing the parties in and giving a sort of certain lecture, and this is an admission that you have one more chance. the other thing the judge can do, because remember, donald trump is out on bail, so he is not free to say anything that anyone else would. is there can be restrictions on what he did, and what he can do. this did happen with roger stone in this very same courthouse, when he posted a photo of the district judge with crosshairs over her shoulder. and that led to severe restrictions on what he could post. just to be clear, any other defendant who did this he was facing six counts of obstruction of justice, for in d.c., two in florida, i think would be remanded. meaning, would be sent to jail, would have to await trial in jail. >> so, neil, one of the things we've been watching this week, it's interesting for even us now, is that the trump team asked for a delay to respond to this protective order, and the judge shut it down really quickly. it all seems very rapid. what have you made of that and what does that tell us about what we should look ahead to in the weeks ahead? >> so first, jen, i just want to thank you for the way you started the show talking about how this trial was something people are going to read about in 100 years. the reason for that is not because of this trial -- it's really because this trial goes to the essence of what our legal system is about. trump's lawyers on tv today saying this is just a technical violation of the constitution and stuff like that. au contraire, this i a serious -- this is about a president, the ex president who tried to stop, try to launch a coup and stop the counting of an election. so i think this is what -- judge chutkan and the timing of this case and what he's been doing over the weekend. i think she is -- this is her reputation, she's a no nonsense judge, she is not going to accept trump's decision to try to delay the trial, which is his kind of standard tactic in case after case, this thing looks like it is heading toward a fast and speedy trial, as it should be, given the gravity of the charges. when trump goes and uses social media to do what he is doing, after being warned by the judge, i think that is all the more reason why this trial has to occur quickly. >> andrew, you mentioned we heard a new defense from donald trump's lawyer this morning on meet the press and other networks as well. let's listen to what he said about trump's pressure campaign on mike pence and talk about it on the other side. >> for -- vice president pence is an attorney. if yet any points that are thought that mr. trump, president trump was acting unlawfully or contrary to criminal law, he would've said that. no one ever suggested that. president trump -- >> actually, he has said that. >> by the way, there is another -- >> the president asked him to violate the constitution. he said the president asked him to violate the constitution. which is another way of saying he had to break the law. >> no, that's wrong. that's wrong. a technical violation of the constitution is not a violation of criminal law. >> i, mean that sounded to me like a new argument, or a new one there. andrew, what did you make of that? >> well, to go to neil's point, a technical violation of the constitution, which is overthrowing the democratic process by which we elect a president, that is neither technical nor is it legal. this is -- i understand that this is defense detour and they try to throw things added to see what might stick with the public. that one is beyond the pale and it shouldn't be normalized. it absolutely is absurd. and again, he will have his day in court, he will be able to float all of these not in the court of public opinion but before a judge chutkan. it is clear it will be rejected. but he will have his day in court, like every defendant, to raise all of these. but this is not a serious argument legally. >> neil, you've really been leading the charge on cameras in the courtroom. you've written about, it talked about it before most people were talking about, it saying it is absolutely necessary. do you think we will get them? >> i do. and the reason is this is, as you are saying, the most important trial that america's ever had. this is occurring in our courtrooms that we pay for with our taxpayer dollars. it is to me, unthinkable that the american public can't see this momentous trial. that's particularly so because trump is a master at disinformation and spewing lies. if we can't see the trial for ourselves, and that disinformation will persist and increase. as one of our greatest justices said, sunlight is the best disinfectant. this trial is in the name of the people of the united states. we are after all the victims of it, as andrew just said very poignantly. this is about overthrowing our democracy, our votes. we should all be able to see this trial. the idea that a handful of people from the public would be allowed in and we could call that a public trial is just, i mean, to me, unthinkable. >> andrew, i know you are not in the business of representing trump or getting in his mind, but looking at all of these charges, it's hard to imagine that they aren't discussing the possibility of a plea deal or a plea agreement. do you think his lawyers are discussing that with him? what is typically happening at this phase, if you are looking at this level of legal threat? >> well, a good defense lawyer has to have that conversation with their client, to advise them about their legal threat. their arguments on the law and what they think -- whether they think they will fly or not. and also what they factually think will happen. in the three criminal cases he is facing currently, perhaps, soon to be for. that being said it is ultimately the clients decision based on that advice. i think that here it is clear that donald trump is going to try to spin in sort of the public. because of the things he's been saying so far are just not anything that goes to a factual defense or a legal defense. in any of these cases. so i just don't see and that this is going to be really an issue where we are thinking about this in terms of the trials, and more that donald trump's thinking, if i can get to the presidency or get an ally into the white house, i can at least make a federal case go away. >> we are looking ahead to a potential fourth indictment. neil, i will start with you. do you think we will get a georgia indictment this week? are you bracing for that? a indictment this week are you brac ing for that >> to, me i think we will. i think that's what all the indications are. there are security barriers going up in fulton county. i think we will see a fourth indictment. >> andrew, you as well? what is your thought? this week? >> you, know if it is not this, week it will be next. week everything has been clear. all the legal issues that could've held this up, we heard from fani willis that she said she's ready to go. so, you know, in the situation, i know she said it would be imminent in january. but right now it really is imminent and there will be a set of charges. it's important for people to know those charges will stick regardless of who is in the white house. because a federal pardon does not affect state charges. >> neil, andrew weissmann, thank you both for spending hours explaining all of this to all of us on television. really appreciate both your time this afternoon. coming, up no matter how much donald trump tries to spin this indictment as a criminal democratic witch hunt, he somehow hasn't figured out the calls coming from inside the house. still ahead, someone who knows the details of what led up the january six better than anyone. congressman raskin joins me to talk about jack smith's case against trump. t trump. >> richard, louis here is what is happening this. ours officials in juneau, alaska assessing damage after homes were destroyed this weekend from the glacier dam break. the alaskan capital, residents being told to avoid that area. until floodwaters recede. the u.s. women's national team out of the world cup. they lost to sweden on penalty kicks in the round of 16. the worst finish for the four-time champions in the tournaments history. more inside with jen psaki right after a short break. after a short break. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools, like dynamic charting and risk-reward analysis help make trading feel effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. with powerful, easy-to-use tools, power e*trade makes complex trading 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completely unhinged reaction from the right-wing media ecosystem. >> from what i see now, they seem totally beat. you should be prosecuted for your thoughts and the difference here is when hillary clinton said it nothing happened to her. >> this indictment reads like a fever dream written by adam schiff and dan goldman. >> the nonsense that came out of his mouth in that press conferences the same stuff we've been hearing. he is like adam schiff with a beard. >> the whole reason why biden has to arrest his top political opponent is not because president trump is guilty of any crimes. it's because biden can't beat trump. >> but going through this 45-page indictment, you will not find joe biden or hillary clinton or adam schiff named as a source of any information in this case. instead, it's the testimony of lifelong republicans. we prominent maga loyalists that form the core of the government's case against donald. trump like trump's vice president, mike pence. trump's director of national intelligence, john ratcliffe. trump's cybersecurity chief -- attorney general bill barr, trump's attorney general that replaced bill barr after the election, jeffrey rosen. trump's acting deputy attorney general, richard donahue. and his former white house chief of staff mark meadows. there sure are a lot of republicans included in this democratic witch hunt against donald trump. when it comes to stopping trump's over -- attempts to overthrow our democracy, it was not democrats but republicans who actually stepped in and stopped. and they were doing their jobs, like rusty bowers, the former arizona house speaker who refused to go along with rudy giuliani scheme to go around the arizona state legislature and replace illegitimate electors with fake ones. a conservative republican, i don't like the results of the presidential election, i voted for president trump and worked hard to reelect him. but i cannot and will not entertain a suggestion that we violate current law to change the outcome of a certified election. republicans like brad raffensperger, the georgia secretary of state pushed back against trump's request to find votes and explains about 5000 people voted in georgia. raffensperger's response, well, mister president, the challenge you, have the data you have, is wrong. the actual number were to. two people that were dead that voted. that's a quote from him. then there was the michigan house speaker that said, quote, we diligently -- i fought hard for president trump and nobody wanted him to win more that be. i think he's done an incredible job. i love our republic too. when trump and his people cry witch hunt and scream about hillary clinton, joe biden, and adam schiff on a, not an awkward thing for trump is that none of these prominent democrats are in the indictment that. people responsible for his current legal challenges are republicans who supported him, who voted for him, and may still believe in his policies. they drew the line at his actions. those are the leaders of the supposed partisan witch hunt against him. outside the special counsel's office, nobody knows the ins and outs of the case better than congressman jamie raskin. he joins me when we come back. e when we come back. all learning to save and spend their money with chase. the chef's cooking up firsts with her new debit card. hungry? -uhuh. the designer's eyeing sequins. uh no plaid. while mom is eyeing his spending. nice. and the engineer? she's taking control with her own account for college. three futures, all with chase. freedom for kids. control for parents. one bank for both. chase. make more of what's yours. 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dr. scholl's has the breakthrough you've been waiting for. the first fda-cleared at-home skin tag remover clinically proven to remove skin tags safely in as little as one treatment. >> it's fair to say that in addition to informing and educating the problem, -- public, the house january six committee uncovered a lot of what we saw this latest indictment of donald trump. there was one big charge of the committee referred to doj, that jacks mitt ultimately decided not to bring in the latest indictment. he charged for inciting an insurrection. joining me now is congressman jamie raskin who served on the house january six committee. i'm so grateful to be chatting with you this afternoon. i thought it was so interesting what you said where you said that jack smith was smart of him not to include an ex insurrection, charging though the committee recommended that. tell me a little bit more about why you think it was so smart. >> i think it was a tactical move because that statute has rarely been used in more than a century. until donald trump, we never had anybody, much less a president of the united states try to incite a violent insurrection and give aid and comfort to in insurrectionist. as donald trump has done. we thought there was overwhelming evidence of that. you, know he called them great heroes, said don't forget this day, continued to praise them, was talking about pardoning all of them including people who have violently assaulted police officers are pled guilty to seditious conspiracy, which means conspiracy to overthrow the government. so i figured he probably wanted to avoid a big debate about freedom of speech and whether trump was just engaged in speech when it came to egging on the insurrectionists. everything else he's pled, donald trump was integrally involved in the action of conspiring to defraud the american public by promoting the counterfeits lights of electors, conspiring to interfere with the federal proceeding on january the 6th, the joint session of congress to count the electors. then fundamentally, a conspiracy to violate everybody's civil rights by stealing the election away from the legitimate electoral process and under the constitution and the electoral count act of 1987 and substituting instead this counterfeit process that he cooked up with john eastman and the other people involved in the conspiracy. >> my bet is trump's recent post aren't a surprise you. they weren't necessarily surprised me either. in the days since the arraignment, he's put out a number of threatening tweets. i mean, he tweeted a veiled threat that mike pence was likely to be a key witness. he tweeted out threats that could be targeted at any range of people in the justice department in the government. should there be any sort of gag order imposed? here what do you think should be done? >> the judge definitely has to look very carefully at that and to what extent trump will be obstructing justice or interfering with honest witness testimony and so on with all of the threats and intimidation which are obviously par for the course with donald trump. but what it shows us, jen, is that this conspiracy continues. they are now going back to the argument that trump won the election, that he did not believe that he lost the election, although there was lots of evidence that we found during the january six committee proceedings that he understood he was saying to people, can you believe i lost to this guy? there were lots of indications he knew he lost, including 60 federal and state court decisions rejecting every claim of electoral fraud and corruption. but basically, they've doubled down on it and are basically saying they would do this again. in other words, donald trump didn't do anything wrong. they are giving us a preview of what they might do in 2024 if the 7 million vote margin that joe biden beat him by becomes a 10 million vote margin, 12 million. they will just pretend again that they won the election and engage in the same insurrectionary tactics against our constitutional order. >> such an important thing to remember, this is not over and he's not exactly muted at this point. there are few people who know as much as you do about all the details here, and mike pence, while it is clear he not only corroborated, he gave his, notes he spoken about this publicly, he also said this week that he didn't know anything about the efforts to secure fake electors and only learned about it after the fact, which to put my cards on the table i found that hard to buy. what was your thought when you heard him say that? i'll be interested to see what the evidence shows in court about it. they certainly took great pains to keep the whole thing secret. it's obviously cuts completely against the freedom of speech that they were just engaging in speech. they were acting like conspirators. the whole electoral college process it is meticulously defined in federal and state law and electoral count act and every state has its own procedures for doing it. there is no doubt that they will just counter -- counterfeiting the electoral process. the idea that is protected by the first amendment, that is absurd. there's people in jail today because they counterfeited one vote, one ballot. if you go in and you pretend you are an elector, you are a voter and you are not that voter or you fill out a registration form with a phony name or addressing your vote that, you will go to prison for years. they try to do that to the entire election. they tried to counterfeit not one ballot, but the entire election, stealing away the victory that joe biden had won 306 to 232 in the electoral college. the idea that that is freedom of speech is preposterous. >> we only have a minute left, but i did want to ask you, you lived this, you are in the capital, you've done so much work on this. there could be a discussion of a plea deal. we don't know at this point where it'll head. would you be able to stomach a deal that doesn't include prison time? >> well, look, again, from the beginning, jen, i've said all of that is within the province of the prosecutors. one of the bad habits we've gotten into during the trump era is politicians second guessing what goes on with prosecutors and trying to micromanage them, second guess the rule of law. i just want to see that justice is done and let's let the wheels of justice turn as they will. the main thing is that the people understand the truth and that we defend democratic institutions and our electoral process. if somebody doesn't like the electoral college, great, let's replace it with a national popular vote. we can do it. meantime, everybody's gotta respect the rules as they are and not try to assist to some phony counterfeit process and leverage the violence in the streets in order to course the vice president to follow their will. >> congressman jamie raskin, when the history books are written, you will definitely get a lot of credit for speaking truth and defending democracy. thank you so much for being with me this afternoon. we are coming right back after a quick break. stay with us. stay with us unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. to help keep me sharp. neuriva: think bigger. when i was diagnosed with h-i-v, i didn't know who i would be. but here i am... being me. keep being you... and ask your healthcare provider about the number one prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people whether you're 18 or 80. with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to undetectable—and stay there whether you're just starting or replacing your current treatment. research shows that taking h-i-v treatment as prescribed and getting to and staying undetectable prevents transmitting h-i-v through sex. serious side effects can occur, including kidney problems and kidney failure. rare, life-threatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and liver problems. do not take biktarvy if you take dofetilide or rifampin. tell your healthcare provider about all the medicines and supplements you take, if you are pregnant or breastfeeding, or if you have kidney or liver problems, including hepatitis. if you have hepatitis b do not stop taking biktarvy without talking to your healthcare provider. common side effects were diarrhea, nausea, and headache. no matter where life takes you, biktarvy can go with you. talk to your healthcare provider today. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? 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